:00:11. > :00:19.15 years ago today, Northern Ireland voted on the Good Friday
:00:19. > :00:22.Agreement. Yes, 71.12 %.We have a specially commissioned opinion poll
:00:22. > :00:26.to find a what people really think of the deal.
:00:26. > :00:32.Go a marriage testing back by MPs in England and Wales, but will it
:00:32. > :00:42.ever happen here, and should it? Living with Down's syndrome. We
:00:42. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:55.meet an inspirational young lady. Ryan Dolan will be in the studio to
:00:55. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:22.tell us what went wrong, and we Welcome along. Lots to talk about
:01:22. > :01:32.tonight. No doubt plenty in the audience will be keen to join the
:01:32. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :01:57.That is the housekeeping down. Let go into the programme. 15 years ago
:01:57. > :02:03.Northern Ireland went to the polls to vote on the Good Friday
:02:03. > :02:07.Agreement. It would ultimately pave the way for all our political
:02:07. > :02:13.parties to share power at Stormont. Don't forget the controversy that
:02:14. > :02:21.flowed from it. The commissioning, the PSNI, the early release of
:02:21. > :02:26.paramilitary prisoners. At that time 71.2 % voted in favour. Howard
:02:26. > :02:29.if people -- how do people feel about it 15 years on? Tonight we
:02:29. > :02:36.will real -- we will reveal the results have appalled we have had
:02:36. > :02:44.specially commissioned. But the is Gregory Campbell. Mitchel
:02:44. > :02:48.McLoughlin. Mark Devenport. Before we start tonight, obviously we have
:02:48. > :02:53.had so a very significant bit of news from London. A man believed to
:02:53. > :02:57.be a soldier has been killed in an attack. Two suspects are under
:02:57. > :03:02.arrest. David Cameron has said there are strong indications that
:03:02. > :03:08.this is a terrorist incident and said the UK would never buckle in
:03:08. > :03:18.the face of such attacks. Mitchel McLoughlin, let's get your reaction
:03:18. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:23.first to that breaking news. I was not back in Belfast until 7 o'clock
:03:23. > :03:30.Swire missed the news. I managed to catch the news in the studio just
:03:30. > :03:33.before the programme. I am not clear as to the National Art -- the
:03:33. > :03:38.nationality of the two individuals. Clearly it was a random attack and
:03:38. > :03:44.they didn't know their victim. They may have seen him coming out of a
:03:44. > :03:48.nearby military barracks. To that extent, I just wonder what is the
:03:48. > :03:55.message that these two individuals were trying to deliver. I don't
:03:55. > :04:02.think that there can be any chance of this making any difference to
:04:02. > :04:08.British policy, whatever it was they were protesting about. We have
:04:08. > :04:15.to extend our sympathies to his family. Gregory, there are some who
:04:15. > :04:20.feel that that it was sickening attack works on some occasions.
:04:20. > :04:25.Sympathy to the family, first of all. It seems to have been a
:04:25. > :04:31.horrific attack. I saw the front pages of tomorrow's national papers
:04:31. > :04:36.and it seemed to indicate a racial nature of the attack. Some of the
:04:36. > :04:41.slogans that were shouted when the kilts the soldier. The Prime
:04:41. > :04:44.Minister is going to have to get to grips tomorrow morning quickly and
:04:45. > :04:51.take control of the situation. what can you do in a situation like
:04:51. > :04:54.that? He needs to be seen to be in control. The one thing that we do
:04:54. > :05:01.not need is racially motivated violence and United Kingdom. Thaw
:05:01. > :05:09.we don't know that yet. They believe that it may be at terrorist
:05:09. > :05:14.attack. Yes, they do. We have to see the people here are in custody.
:05:14. > :05:20.We need to see where they're from, their reasoning for the attack. The
:05:20. > :05:29.Prime Minister does need to assume control. Reports are coming out
:05:29. > :05:38.literally over the last few hours, that for example it was heard one
:05:38. > :05:43.of the perpetrators shouted God is great. Obviously there will be
:05:43. > :05:53.people of that fear he will be just as horrified. As anything else.
:05:53. > :05:54.
:05:54. > :06:01.Let's get our initial reaction to this in the story -- the initial
:06:01. > :06:08.reaction in the studio tonight to that story. It is sickening to
:06:08. > :06:14.think that we live in society with these kind of people, who are born
:06:14. > :06:19.on hatred, Danny in here tripped, and live in a world that's doesn't
:06:19. > :06:24.even exist. They never should have been let in in the first place.
:06:24. > :06:29.Just behind due. Isn't it amazing how the killing of a soldier now in
:06:29. > :06:32.England as getting such a reaction here when you think how many were
:06:32. > :06:40.killed over 40 years of Troubles, that is being forgotten about
:06:40. > :06:43.because of the Good Friday agreements. Innocent people who
:06:43. > :06:50.were killed doing their job, going to work, that is just forgotten
:06:50. > :06:54.about. Guys like Mitchel McLoughlin Gregory Campbell who are sitting up
:06:54. > :07:03.and the big house with their big money, didn't care. The place has
:07:03. > :07:06.gone to pot. 15 years on, and that is what we're talking about tonight.
:07:06. > :07:16.Do you not think that the Good Friday Agreement has delivered for
:07:16. > :07:20.you. Not at all.Why not? 15 years ago Gregory Campbell was kicking
:07:20. > :07:26.David Trimble in the teeth for going for it. Why has your party of
:07:26. > :07:35.a sudden after 15 years want to go in and sleep with Sinn Fein, and
:07:35. > :07:43.you didn't want to do it 15 years ago? Answer that question. It is
:07:43. > :07:47.quite straightforward the difference full -- the difference.
:07:47. > :07:51.15 years ago they were armed, carrying out atrocities. What had
:07:51. > :07:54.to happen after the Belfast Agreement, Sinn Fein and the
:07:54. > :07:57.republican movement have to face up to their responsibilities, the fact
:07:57. > :08:02.that they carried out these atrocities and they needed to stop
:08:02. > :08:07.and support policemen rather than shooting them. It took a long time,
:08:07. > :08:12.to the number of years. Eventually, they came to that point. That is
:08:12. > :08:17.the difference. Back in 1992 were deposed a power-sharing in
:08:17. > :08:21.principle? We weren't a poster power sharing with Democrats. The
:08:21. > :08:26.difference is it wasn't Democrats but we have to sit down with the
:08:26. > :08:30.1998. It was people still involved in violence and they had to stop
:08:31. > :08:35.that. They have the support the courts, the police and the rule of
:08:35. > :08:40.law. Are you saying that the deal you work in London now has done
:08:40. > :08:45.nothing to do with the 1998 Deal? At the moment, it is all democrats.
:08:45. > :08:50.Nobody in Stormont advocates violence, but the 1998 there were.
:08:50. > :09:00.Mitchel McLoughlin, when did you become a Democrat? I was born a
:09:00. > :09:02.
:09:02. > :09:06.Democrat. The idea of democratic principles seem to be a strange
:09:07. > :09:13.idea to Unionists back when they had a one-party government. What we
:09:13. > :09:17.have brought to the process is a commitment to ensure that there
:09:17. > :09:27.will be a peaceful resolution of all the outstanding issues and we
:09:27. > :09:31.
:09:31. > :09:37.have demonstrated that every year. It is an inclusive agreements.
:09:37. > :09:43.reckon you're working the same deal by you didn't 1998? Yes. Nobody can
:09:44. > :09:50.seriously argue that it is different. Gregory is entitled to
:09:50. > :09:55.his opinion and I will leave it to common sense. In the year 2000 I
:09:55. > :09:59.was a minister. I could do as I pleased, government will silos,
:09:59. > :10:03.people not accountable to their executive colleagues. We didn't
:10:03. > :10:08.even go to the executive because in the executive for people who were
:10:08. > :10:12.not committed to peaceful means. That was the position then and it
:10:12. > :10:18.does not the position now. Now G have to get agreement, get cross-
:10:18. > :10:25.party consensus. Why did you collars of the minister back then?
:10:25. > :10:32.Because there was a minister. -- I was a minister. People are
:10:32. > :10:37.accountable now. I want us to take a look at some of the headlines out
:10:37. > :10:41.of are appalled that we have specially commissioned. We asked
:10:41. > :10:49.how you would vote now and the Good Friday Agreement. Let's have a look
:10:49. > :10:56.at this. 50 % said they would vote yes. 11 % said they would vote No.
:10:56. > :10:59.21 % would vote, and 18 % said they didn't know. If we do a bit of
:10:59. > :11:05.number crunching on that. By our reckoning come if you exclude those
:11:05. > :11:11.who would and boats, what is the survey saying? It would point to a
:11:11. > :11:19.63 % projected vote in favour of the agreements. 15 % against, 22 %
:11:20. > :11:24.saying they don't know. Mark Devenport, once I start to get into
:11:24. > :11:29.this type of figures, I get lost. First of all, people will have seen
:11:29. > :11:36.at the start of the show the returning officer and nights and 71
:11:36. > :11:43.%. We should make the point there when the returning officer get that
:11:43. > :11:48.figure, it was on the people who had voted. We have large people
:11:48. > :11:54.because it is an opinion poll saying they will not vote. But this
:11:54. > :11:58.is the reason why we have or percentages. When you strip out
:11:58. > :12:04.some of those figures, you still have a healthy majority in favour
:12:04. > :12:10.of the Good Friday Agreement. It is a hard one for people to address,
:12:10. > :12:14.because a lot has happened and 15 years. You still have a healthy
:12:14. > :12:18.majority, even if all the people who said they don't know where to
:12:18. > :12:22.pile into the No camp, which wouldn't happen, the agreement
:12:22. > :12:28.would still have gone through. Maybe even an entrance majority to
:12:28. > :12:35.how it was. How would you vote if you're voting today? If the basis
:12:35. > :12:41.on the boat was letting murderers out early, I would vote No. Sir,
:12:41. > :12:50.you would still don't know today? The S, I would. Most people who did
:12:50. > :12:57.so, did it on the basis of letting people out. There was no question
:12:57. > :13:07.of the prisoners going back in! The sovereign government in London said
:13:07. > :13:15.
:13:15. > :13:23.we have signed a deal to let them institutions collapsing three times.
:13:23. > :13:31.All of that instability between 1998 and 2007. There has been an
:13:31. > :13:38.improvement. Not as much as there needs to be. Politicians are not
:13:38. > :13:44.having proper engagement because of the grassroots. They are trying to
:13:44. > :13:50.keep us apart. They always seem to put the fear on us and we step
:13:50. > :13:57.backwards. We should have a forum of ordinary people. All of these
:13:57. > :14:03.politicians have hidden agendas. We do not. I know I give politicians a
:14:03. > :14:06.hard time. But when you talk like that, they are part of our
:14:06. > :14:11.community. Are we going to keep on demonising these people who
:14:11. > :14:21.ultimately you elect? We can give them a hard time but do not demonise
:14:21. > :14:22.
:14:22. > :14:32.them. We vote them in to represent our part of the community. Once they
:14:32. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:39.are in, nothing. Are you not happy? No. I have gone to my
:14:39. > :14:45.representatives. They say they will do things. They do the talk and not
:14:45. > :14:52.the walk. I do not believe that what the politicians say they will do is
:14:52. > :14:57.what they do. Things are far better now than they were 15 years ago.
:14:57. > :15:03.Absolutely. We still have a long way to go. Have a look at this
:15:03. > :15:09.statistic. We asked people if they were to vote now, what about the
:15:09. > :15:17.breakdown between the two communities. 37% of Protestants said
:15:17. > :15:23.they would vote yes. Look at the difference. 66% of Catholics. Now,
:15:23. > :15:26.Gregory Campbell, why on earth are Catholics more confident, feel in a
:15:26. > :15:32.better place about the Good Friday agreement, than Protestants? Are you
:15:32. > :15:41.letting them down? What that is indicative of, and I had a look on
:15:41. > :15:46.the way in, and your statistics appear to, according to the BBC,
:15:46. > :15:55.appeared to have surveyed 1000 people 16 years and up. You were
:15:55. > :15:58.asking them about issues related to 15 years ago. Work out the maths. So
:15:58. > :16:07.somebody who was 16 was being asked what they thought of life when they
:16:07. > :16:12.were one. They were asked if they were to vote tomorrow. They were
:16:12. > :16:18.asked a number of things. Is anybody seriously saying that anybody under
:16:18. > :16:22.20 or 21 would have a view about 15 years ago? You don't think they get
:16:22. > :16:27.history at school. You don't think a 16-year-old is capable of acquiring
:16:27. > :16:30.knowledge and thinking for themselves? You are not asking them
:16:30. > :16:37.about history. You are asking them how they thought things had improved
:16:37. > :16:45.or changed. Some of those people were not even at school. Your theory
:16:45. > :16:55.is going to be to rubbish the opinion poll? No. I always treat
:16:55. > :16:56.
:16:56. > :16:58.opinion polls with a note of caution. This is a difficult thing
:16:58. > :17:01.for people to get their heads around. Not all 1000 people
:17:01. > :17:08.interviewed were 16. Obviously, to put yourself in the shoes of
:17:08. > :17:14.somebody 15 years ago, whether it be deadlock at Stormont etc, looking at
:17:14. > :17:17.that statistic, it chimes in not only with some of the recent things
:17:17. > :17:22.we have been hearing about alienation within the unionist
:17:22. > :17:26.community, but also broadly, concerned about the direction in
:17:26. > :17:30.which the peace process may be heading. You have to remember,
:17:30. > :17:36.whilst there was no definitive breakdown of the votes put in the
:17:36. > :17:40.box in 1998, all of the sense was that the Unionist vote was pretty
:17:40. > :17:44.evenly balanced, and that the Catholic vote was much more in
:17:44. > :17:50.favour of the agreement. When you look at the statistics, 66% of
:17:50. > :17:55.Catholics voting yes, it does not really surprise me. There has always
:17:56. > :18:00.been more enthusiasm on the national side for this process. Mitchel
:18:00. > :18:07.McLaughlin, do you think Catholics are happier in this new Northern
:18:07. > :18:16.Ireland? If that is the case, are you happy with that? I do think we
:18:16. > :18:21.should acknowledge that the electorate is very intelligent. You
:18:21. > :18:29.can take it that if they are given enough time to consider the
:18:29. > :18:36.alternative to the assembly, would we go back to direct rule? Would be
:18:36. > :18:40.go back to chaos? Why are Catholics more happy than Protestants?
:18:41. > :18:44.Throughout the process, from the earliest, there was more expectation
:18:44. > :18:50.and confidence reflected within the broad nationalist community than in
:18:50. > :18:56.the Unionist community. We had a very lopsided, 1-sided system that
:18:56. > :19:00.was called democratic body was manifestly not. It was replaced by
:19:01. > :19:05.something which was even worse, direct rule. Now we have
:19:05. > :19:10.power-sharing. Nationalists have the ability to obtain their
:19:10. > :19:15.constitutional aims. That is an opinion poll. Some people may draw
:19:15. > :19:21.out of that that you lot are pushing people from the Protestant community
:19:21. > :19:29.too far, and that you should beware of them being unhappy. You should
:19:29. > :19:33.care about them being unhappy. think there is a point in that that
:19:33. > :19:38.needs to be examined. Let's step back slightly further to the
:19:38. > :19:42.earliest days of the O'Neill administration. Very minor, very
:19:42. > :19:48.modest reforms. Within his own party and within his own constituency,
:19:48. > :19:52.that government was destroyed. Jump forward to David Trimble. People
:19:52. > :19:58.should recognise that he knew his party was going to reverse it. He
:19:58. > :20:00.knew he was going to be attacked. He brought people together. It was
:20:00. > :20:05.reversed quickly. That was incredible bravery. It is my view
:20:05. > :20:09.that he did deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he knew what was going
:20:09. > :20:19.to happen. It was not going to be Republicans who are going to pulling
:20:19. > :20:20.
:20:20. > :20:28.down. Did not take you long to destroy him. He was gone anyway.
:20:28. > :20:33.What is your field, from the Protestant community? I actually
:20:33. > :20:40.believe that many people who voted for the Good Friday agreement 15
:20:40. > :20:43.years ago had a vision of a new Northern Ireland. The 15 years since
:20:43. > :20:50.the signing of that agreement I also believe that many events have taken
:20:50. > :20:58.place. Most recently, in Belfast with the removal of the union flag.
:20:58. > :21:05.That has certainly had an impact on how people would view the agreement.
:21:05. > :21:10.Could the current political system be seen as lazy? There is no
:21:10. > :21:16.opposition in government. You would think it would be better. Don't they
:21:16. > :21:22.argue between themselves in North? No. If they had an opposition, they
:21:22. > :21:32.would have somebody to argue with instead of arguing among each other.
:21:32. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:38.What would an opposition stand for? You could have Sinn Fein... You
:21:38. > :21:48.could vote for who you feel would be better for Northern Ireland itself.
:21:48. > :21:54.
:21:54. > :22:02.The agreement was set up to create a quality. Many people are questioning
:22:02. > :22:07.the Good Friday agreement. I did not quite hear the question.
:22:07. > :22:11.agreement was set up to create equality for policing. The flag
:22:11. > :22:17.protest and how it was handled by the police, people are now
:22:17. > :22:22.questioning the agreement. I think there is some truth in that. I have
:22:22. > :22:26.had -- heard many unionists say they are disillusioned. Flowed as I think
:22:26. > :22:32.the opinion poll is, some of the figures are borne out in what you
:22:32. > :22:38.see on the streets. People want to see more action, more quickly. They
:22:38. > :22:44.want more delivery. That is the challenge for every political party.
:22:44. > :22:54.Jude Collins, what do you take out of that opinion poll? Some Unionists
:22:54. > :22:55.
:22:55. > :23:02.have a short memory. Republicans and Nationalists at the beginning made
:23:02. > :23:07.the big concession. That the constitutional position would be
:23:07. > :23:11.held by the six county Northern Ireland. That was a huge concession.
:23:11. > :23:15.The Unionists are now finding that they have to adjust to their side of
:23:15. > :23:20.the bargain, which is to create a state where people are equal. Where
:23:20. > :23:24.people get jobs on the basis of their ability, housing in terms of
:23:24. > :23:30.their needs. That is something that has gradually been worked out over
:23:30. > :23:32.the years. Some people are finding that hard to take. Do you think
:23:33. > :23:42.ordinary decent people from the Protestant community would find that
:23:42. > :23:44.hard to take? Some Unionists find difficulty with that. They feel that
:23:44. > :23:54.if Nationalists are Republicans are making gains, or getting equality,
:23:54. > :24:01.in fact... Do you mean people like Gregory? No. I do not. I hope we
:24:01. > :24:08.does not think that. Do you? No, I don't. I am amazed that Jude is
:24:08. > :24:12.presenting it as he is. Many Unionists say to me on a weekly
:24:12. > :24:15.basis that equality is a good idea. They would like some. They were
:24:16. > :24:20.really like some. When you look at the public sector in terms of
:24:20. > :24:23.recruitment, there is a vast imbalance in terms of who is being
:24:23. > :24:30.recorded. It is not the Catholic community who are suffering.
:24:30. > :24:36.Equality is a very good concept. Let's have more of it. Let's have
:24:36. > :24:46.another look at another finding. We asked if Stormont was working well.
:24:46. > :24:46.
:24:46. > :24:51.60% of Catholics said yes. 35% of Protestants said no. -- said
:24:51. > :24:54.Stormont is working well. We see a more enthusiastic approach to the
:24:54. > :25:02.process and to the Stormont system amongst the Catholic community than
:25:02. > :25:10.the Protestant. That must be worrying to the Unionist parties?
:25:10. > :25:16.One thing they have some solace from is that more Unionists think
:25:16. > :25:21.Stormont is working well done badly. It is clear there is still a lot of
:25:21. > :25:30.disenchantment, about 44% who think Stormont is not working very well or
:25:30. > :25:39.not at all well. Maybe again we have heard from some people who say there
:25:39. > :25:44.is talk about deadlock, people locking horns etc. David McCann,
:25:44. > :25:46.what do you think about that last statistic? It is not surprising in
:25:46. > :25:56.terms of the gaps between the communities. It is not really
:25:56. > :25:58.
:25:58. > :26:02.surprise in. -- surprising. If you take a look at statistics, there are
:26:02. > :26:08.a... Part of the problem is that what you are getting, and Gregory
:26:08. > :26:15.was talking about silo government, is creating that system. What you
:26:15. > :26:21.are getting is, people feel so disengaged with the process. Part of
:26:21. > :26:25.the problem, from what I can see, is that people think Stormont isn't
:26:25. > :26:34.addressing their concerns. For example, 80% want integrated
:26:34. > :26:44.education. Yet 70% of kids go to integrated schools. That is where a
:26:44. > :27:00.
:27:00. > :27:08.lot of the alienation is coming There are hundreds up people who
:27:08. > :27:18.are alive because this agreement was signed. Would you vote Yes
:27:18. > :27:20.
:27:20. > :27:25.tomorrow? His cassia Clyde, so we would. I want a better future for
:27:25. > :27:31.my children. I am a grandfather and want those children to go about in
:27:31. > :27:40.peace. More Protestants are disillusioned with Stormont and
:27:40. > :27:46.Catholics. Why would that be? Good Friday Agreement, as we were
:27:46. > :27:54.sold it, was a football pitch. You had the nationalists, the loyalists,
:27:54. > :28:04.Unionists on that pitch. The referee's were the British
:28:04. > :28:05.
:28:05. > :28:15.government and the Irish government. Loyalism was left Tokely behind.
:28:15. > :28:20.
:28:20. > :28:30.There was a person... the Labour government left us behind. It was
:28:30. > :28:33.
:28:33. > :28:40.more important to keep Sinn Fein on Gaud -- on board. Hello, Julie.
:28:40. > :28:44.years on, are we in a better place? Yes we are. My father was a
:28:44. > :28:48.Catholic taxi driver, my brothers were Protestant taxi drivers. 18
:28:48. > :28:55.years back, women went to bed worrying about their husbands
:28:55. > :29:05.coming home. Yes, we're in a better place, definitely. We need to move
:29:05. > :29:09.
:29:09. > :29:16.on. We have to stop all this and move on. We're in a better place.
:29:16. > :29:26.Julie, bite you very much. Please give our guests around of applause.
:29:26. > :29:26.
:29:26. > :29:29.Here is what is still to come. The House of Commons has voted to allow
:29:29. > :29:39.gay marriage in England and Wales, the word is that lead Northern
:29:39. > :29:49.Ireland? You can pick up the phone, the number as at the bottom of the
:29:49. > :29:52.
:29:52. > :29:59.screen. You can text us. You can tweak us during the show. At
:29:59. > :30:09.11:30pm tonight, I get that phone and we continue the conversation on
:30:09. > :30:10.
:30:10. > :30:16.Twitter. The beauty of this TV programme is tomorrow morning at 9
:30:16. > :30:23.o'clock on Radio Ulster, we continue the discussion. Saturday
:30:23. > :30:28.night was not a good night for Ryan Dolan. In front of an audience of
:30:29. > :30:33.125 million he came last in the Eurovision Song contest. So, why do
:30:33. > :30:43.we have a month -- had been here singing tonight? Was it really that
:30:43. > :30:43.
:30:43. > :32:03.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 80 seconds
:32:03. > :32:13.bad? Ladies and gentlemen, please MUSIC.
:32:13. > :32:13.
:32:13. > :33:57.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 80 seconds
:33:57. > :34:04.I am dying to ask you this question, what is it like. The Eurovision is
:34:04. > :34:11.a pile of... what is it like to come last? Shut up you lot! On the
:34:11. > :34:15.night, I was really disappointed. The next day when I found out that
:34:15. > :34:20.the sun was charting in 18 countries across Europe. What about
:34:20. > :34:29.that! I APPLAUSE.
:34:29. > :34:32.Was there a big blow when you got last? I did care, at the time.
:34:32. > :34:39.Watching the boats coming out was really disheartening. The next day
:34:39. > :34:44.one I got up, actually, that night I went out and we got over it
:34:44. > :34:50.quickly. Just really happy that things are going well. Then you
:34:50. > :34:58.have the euphoria of charting in so many countries. That said, yes. We
:34:58. > :35:03.released the album, frequency, on Monday, and it is on the top 20
:35:03. > :35:07.Ireland chart in arrogance, and all over Europe. Even Australia! Thank
:35:07. > :35:14.you so much for coming. Give him a round of applause, ladies and
:35:14. > :35:19.gentlemen. APPLAUSE.
:35:19. > :35:24.I wonder how many of us, if we were being honest, would prejudge
:35:24. > :35:29.someone who has Down's syndrome? Why do we actually just find out
:35:29. > :35:35.what it is really like to live with his disability. This lady is a
:35:35. > :35:45.charming young lady. She doesn't let much getting her way. Let's
:35:45. > :35:51.
:35:51. > :36:00.give Barbara at big welcome! Good to see you. Have a seat. This
:36:00. > :36:08.is your sister, Emma. Nice to meet you. Barbara, I guess what I want
:36:08. > :36:17.to try to understand tonight, is what is it like living with Down's
:36:17. > :36:25.syndrome? Living with Down's syndrome is amazing. In a way.
:36:26. > :36:33.Because I grew up with it. I have experienced a lot of things. I
:36:33. > :36:43.enjoy it. It is a good thing to have. Do you mean that?Yes. Why is
:36:43. > :36:45.
:36:45. > :36:49.it a good thing to have? There are different ways... different parts
:36:49. > :36:59.of dancers -- Brown syndrome. Having backed is like a learning
:36:59. > :37:03.disability. That also helps because it has a good positive vibe to it.
:37:03. > :37:09.I know that you are a confident young lady. I know that you are
:37:09. > :37:17.driven. That is fantastic. That is why I know that I can probably ask
:37:17. > :37:22.you some of the questions that I might otherwise be frightened off.
:37:22. > :37:32.OK. When you are going up, do you get people judging you? Sometimes,
:37:32. > :37:34.
:37:34. > :37:40.when I was young. Now, I have grown out of it. What type of things
:37:40. > :37:47.happen to you when you were young? Things like when people are talking
:37:47. > :37:52.to either my sister were my parents, without talking to me. So if I am
:37:52. > :38:01.with my parents and a doctor my parents and said of talking to me.
:38:01. > :38:07.Because they think you can answer for yourself. What did you send
:38:07. > :38:12.yourself? In my head, I asked myself why when they should be
:38:12. > :38:17.talking to me. What we do say to them? Why are you talking to them.
:38:17. > :38:27.They should be talking to me instead of them.
:38:27. > :38:34.
:38:34. > :38:41.Er you nervous? Know.The be nervous idea. A am not.You are
:38:41. > :38:51.fantastically confident. I admire that in you. Dg get bullied much?
:38:51. > :38:54.
:38:54. > :39:00.Because of her disability? I have had that experience before. I have
:39:00. > :39:07.moved on from that. What would they have done? I want to find out what
:39:07. > :39:11.people do, so we can make sure that people don't do it again to others.
:39:11. > :39:21.Making fun of people's disabilities. People would have done at tea on
:39:21. > :39:23.
:39:23. > :39:31.the street? Let's just say, in schools. Mainly. None of us like
:39:31. > :39:40.being the elite. What did it do to you? It made me feel isolated.
:39:40. > :39:50.That's part of its. I have moved on from that. How did you fight back?
:39:50. > :39:52.
:39:52. > :39:57.I didn't really fight back at that time. I bottle things up. It herds?
:39:57. > :40:02.It did. I always say to myself inside my head, sticks and stones
:40:02. > :40:12.may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.
:40:12. > :40:22.
:40:22. > :40:31.You are in the Special Olympics. Yes. I do rhythmic gymnastics. I'm
:40:31. > :40:38.quite flexible. Handstands. I'm a natural athlete. What was it like?
:40:38. > :40:47.Is that you? It was amazing. I was increase in their video. It was the
:40:47. > :40:51.World games. In Athens. Look at that. My uncle, Charlie, was the
:40:51. > :40:58.one who videoed it. He came over with his wife, Janice. How much
:40:59. > :41:08.practice needs to go into doing that? I practise every Wednesday
:41:09. > :41:09.
:41:09. > :41:14.evening. Did you feel free out there? But that is what you do?
:41:14. > :41:22.Sometimes and light, no matter who we are, when you're doing something
:41:22. > :41:29.that true love, well, for me, I love being here and I feel freedom.
:41:29. > :41:37.I was able to spread out around the floor and do my routines perfectly.
:41:37. > :41:45.I hear you are in love! Yes.If you don't want to name him? I will not
:41:45. > :41:50.name him. Let's not get into the nitty-gritty, but you're going to
:41:50. > :41:56.have me about end of an independent life? You yes.We end? I haven't a
:41:56. > :42:06.clue. I am on the Housing Executive List. I have been honoured for
:42:06. > :42:08.
:42:08. > :42:16.quite a while! Of fully soon. Whole police soon. Where his mum? Heidi
:42:16. > :42:26.feel about her moving out? As soon as possible! We will miss her, but
:42:26. > :42:34.
:42:34. > :42:41.this is the right thing to, for her somebody with Downs syndrome. I
:42:41. > :42:47.remember turning to the relative. was the young lady's mother. I
:42:47. > :42:53.walked away with a deep sense of guilt about myself. This young lady
:42:53. > :42:58.started talking so articulately, as you have tonight. And I do think
:42:58. > :43:08.that you will remind us all just to challenge our prejudices. Do you
:43:08. > :43:08.
:43:08. > :43:13.agree with that? 100%. There is no reason why Barbara and people like
:43:13. > :43:18.or should not be living independently. It should be an
:43:18. > :43:26.available option for all of them. Absolutely. Where is Catherine? You
:43:26. > :43:36.are the mother of a Downs syndrome child. What advice would you give?
:43:36. > :43:39.
:43:39. > :43:49.Always look at the person or who he is, not the disability he has. Never
:43:49. > :43:55.
:43:55. > :44:05.judge a book by the cover. That is tonight. Ladies and gentlemen,
:44:05. > :44:10.
:44:10. > :44:14.Barbara. Thank you very much. Right, shall we move on? Our next debate is
:44:14. > :44:19.gay marriage. This week it has been backed by MPs in the House of
:44:19. > :44:23.Commons. The Prime Minister is adamant. It is worth fighting for.
:44:23. > :44:29.There will be young boys in school today who are gay, worried about
:44:29. > :44:36.being bullied, worried about what society will think, who will see
:44:36. > :44:41.that the highest no in the land cares for them. The the DUP have
:44:41. > :44:45.said it will not happen on their watch. If Scotland goes ahead, we
:44:45. > :44:49.could be the only region in the UK were gay people cannot get married.
:44:49. > :44:53.If a gay person gets married in England and comes to live here,
:44:53. > :45:03.there is same-sex marriage would not be recognised here. Let's find out
:45:03. > :45:12.what you think of this. Jim Allister, what is wrong with gay
:45:12. > :45:20.people in love getting married? Marriage is properly an institution
:45:20. > :45:27.for heterosexual marriage. Not any more. It is an institution devised
:45:27. > :45:35.to provide a secure, loving framework for the procreation and
:45:35. > :45:43.the raising of children. The suggestion that because same-sex
:45:43. > :45:48.couple love each other, that they should be able to marry, is a per
:45:48. > :45:58.version of marriage. There is no parity between heterosexual marriage
:45:58. > :46:04.and same-sex marriage. It it may be a parity of marriage. I think you're
:46:04. > :46:12.thinking is a per version, I have to say. This is the aggressive gay
:46:12. > :46:22.agenda. It cannot even tolerate dispute. I'm Brian Kennedy, by the
:46:22. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:32.way. One second, Brian. Let's take the premise you begin with. If two
:46:32. > :46:42.people love each other, why can't they married? Let's follow the
:46:42. > :46:52.logic. Let's say a man says he loves to women. Are we going to go for
:46:52. > :46:57.
:46:57. > :47:01.polygamy? Patrick, go ahead. This is a ridiculous, hate filled,
:47:01. > :47:07.ridiculous argument. There is a vital principle at stake. It is
:47:07. > :47:17.equality. Everyone here and everyone in Northern Ireland, male, female,
:47:17. > :47:17.
:47:17. > :47:24.gay, straight, should be entitled to equal rights under the law. There is
:47:24. > :47:28.no equality between heterosexual marriage and same-sex marriage.
:47:28. > :47:33.are dehumanising gay people. You are denigrating me, you are denigrating
:47:33. > :47:40.Brian. Your denigrating everybody who is not heterosexual. Your words
:47:40. > :47:45.harm everyone. I give you an example. Last weekend, the day
:47:45. > :47:50.before the third reading of the debate in Parliament in London, a
:47:50. > :47:55.gay couple were brutally attacked in a park in south London. One of those
:47:55. > :48:02.people, Christopher Bryant, warned MPs, public figures like you, about
:48:02. > :48:12.the homophobic rhetoric. He warned that your words would cause violence
:48:12. > :48:15.against gay people. You say it is a matter of equality. If it was, the
:48:15. > :48:21.European Convention of human rights would provide for gay marriage. It
:48:21. > :48:25.would have said it is wrong to deny gay marriage. The European Court has
:48:25. > :48:29.given many zany rulings. It has never yet said that. There is no
:48:29. > :48:35.issue of equality. It is a matter for the legislature in each member
:48:35. > :48:39.state. What you want to do is enforce against the rule of the
:48:39. > :48:42.electorate, against the will of the electorate who are elected to make
:48:42. > :48:52.these decisions. This is a devolved issue in Northern Ireland, whether
:48:52. > :48:55.
:48:55. > :49:00.you like it or not. Equality is a red herring. Equality has been dealt
:49:00. > :49:06.with under civil partnerships. This is about a small minority trying to
:49:06. > :49:13.force their views on the majority. This is 1% of the population. The
:49:13. > :49:17.office of National statistics has done the survey. There are more than
:49:17. > :49:22.a thousand marriages in Northern Ireland, more than 85 civil
:49:22. > :49:32.marriages. It is a red herring. Civil partnership and marriage are
:49:32. > :49:35.not the same thing. What happens with the children of these people?
:49:35. > :49:43.You're trying to demonise what's going on here. I think you are
:49:43. > :49:52.having a good go at it Jim. Peter Tatchell does not equate same-sex
:49:52. > :49:57.marriage with gay marriage. Can I finish the point? Peter Tatchell
:49:57. > :50:07.himself said that two gay men in a relationship, the only way they can
:50:07. > :50:07.
:50:07. > :50:17.commit adultery is with a woman. And so you have two choices. Why do you
:50:17. > :50:21.
:50:21. > :50:25.focus on that? You say you are all about the principle of equality...
:50:25. > :50:29.think there is a very important issues. In Ireland right now, in the
:50:29. > :50:33.world right now, young people are trying to decide on their identity.
:50:34. > :50:43.The things that are happening, whether it was in the 1980s when you
:50:44. > :50:44.
:50:44. > :50:53.did that all-star sodomy nonsense at the City Hall... Who is demonising
:50:53. > :50:58.now? Suicide in young people is on the rise. The things that you are
:50:58. > :51:06.saying are making young people feel bad about themselves. Because
:51:06. > :51:10.somebody disagrees with you, you are saying that people are committing
:51:10. > :51:15.suicide. That is not the case. talking about things that lead to
:51:15. > :51:21.homophobia. That is the way you are thinking. As soon as someone who
:51:21. > :51:31.disagrees with you, you say it is homophobic thinking. That is
:51:31. > :51:31.
:51:31. > :51:40.nonsense. In the 80s you were part of the the DUP delegation. What is
:51:40. > :51:44.your position? I accept what the law says. I am not here for you to put
:51:44. > :51:54.words into my mouth. You may be very good at doing that with other
:51:54. > :51:55.
:51:55. > :52:01.people. Hold on a minute!I know this show has an obsession with gay
:52:01. > :52:05.marriage. You'll not be putting words in my mouth. I accept the law.
:52:05. > :52:10.Let me repeat the question. So much I not trying to put words in your
:52:10. > :52:15.mouth, my friend, I am asking you a question so that you can answer it.
:52:15. > :52:21.Don't go off on these tangents about me having an agenda. Would you
:52:21. > :52:28.prefer gay sex was still illegal, as you chose to have that position in
:52:28. > :52:33.the 80s? Have you changed? I believe gay sex is wrong. I believe it is a
:52:33. > :52:41.lifestyle that is inappropriate. I have to accept that the law says it
:52:41. > :52:50.is not illegal. I am a legislator. Have I tried to change the law? I
:52:50. > :52:53.accept the law as it exists. What I also accept is that people have the
:52:54. > :52:56.right to legislate according to the views of their electorate. The
:52:56. > :53:06.electorate in Northern Ireland have spoken through the assembly that
:53:06. > :53:07.
:53:07. > :53:17.they do not want same-sex marriage. These people want to enforce it.
:53:17. > :53:17.
:53:17. > :53:24.That young man. Jim, how do you feel about being wrong against equality?
:53:24. > :53:32.Eventually young people, it will happen. Inevitably, gay marriage
:53:32. > :53:37.will happen. We don't have the statistics to see the breakdown.
:53:37. > :53:43.Young people are clear on this. Young people definitely feel it is
:53:43. > :53:50.going to happen. We maybe 15 years behind England. It will happen.
:53:50. > :53:56.Thank God for young people. might be young but you do not speak
:53:56. > :54:06.on behalf of all young people, for example. You're kind of middle-aged!
:54:06. > :54:07.
:54:07. > :54:10.What you think? Equality means treating similar things the same.
:54:10. > :54:14.Equality means treating similar things the same. Marriage already
:54:14. > :54:20.does that. It treats all people equally, regardless of age, sex,
:54:20. > :54:24.discrimination. There is a fundamental difference between
:54:24. > :54:28.heterosexual and homosexual relationship. A homosexual
:54:28. > :54:33.relationship is not compatible to procreate for children. It is not
:54:33. > :54:37.the best environment to bring up a child without a mother and father.
:54:37. > :54:44.Secondly, to redefine marriage is to change the truth. When you change
:54:44. > :54:50.the truth, you open the floodgates for everything. There are two
:54:50. > :54:57.issues. It is very important. There is a notion that somehow we should
:54:57. > :55:01.accept this second weight position -- second rate. Let me finish. The
:55:01. > :55:04.separate but equal argument was the doctrine that underpinned racial
:55:05. > :55:14.segregation in America. Do you understand what we are talking about
:55:15. > :55:17.
:55:18. > :55:25.here? Do you want exactly the same is the principal? You will accept
:55:25. > :55:35.that Northern Ireland has a right to say no to this? Yes, but it is going
:55:35. > :55:36.
:55:36. > :55:40.to happen whether you like it or not. Do we have a say you Mac --?
:55:41. > :55:44.will tell you what your problem is, Jim. You're too far behind the
:55:44. > :55:54.times. You and the rest of the unionist parties, get your head out
:55:54. > :56:01.
:56:01. > :56:11.of the sand! Move on, Jim! Here we have another illustration. As ever,
:56:11. > :56:13.
:56:13. > :56:16.those who present themselves as liberal... Stop! Stop! There is no
:56:16. > :56:22.point shouting because we cannot hear you. Tell me why you are so
:56:22. > :56:28.angry? I am angry because the likes of him is up there is spreading
:56:28. > :56:32.hatred on TV. He's entitled to his opinion without being accused of
:56:33. > :56:39.spreading anything. He is entitled to his opinion. He is also an
:56:39. > :56:49.elected politician with a mandate, by the way. There is no hatred in
:56:49. > :56:56.
:56:57. > :57:03.saying that marriage is for heterosexuals. No hatred whatsoever.
:57:03. > :57:07.Can we talk about this argument of redefinition? This is often brought
:57:07. > :57:11.up. Marriage has been redefined dozens of times. Marriage was
:57:11. > :57:14.redefined when we decided that it was not OK for men to be able to
:57:14. > :57:20.legally rape their wives and marriage. Marriage was redefined by
:57:20. > :57:29.Henry VIII when he decided marriage is not forever when you want to
:57:29. > :57:36.sleep with Anne Boleyn. A lady in the glasses. Your guy there was
:57:36. > :57:42.talking about gay people having kids and about how it is not a good
:57:42. > :57:47.environment. There are many heterosexual families who have kids
:57:47. > :57:56.you should not happen -- have them. What makes it wrong for a gay
:57:56. > :57:59.person? Lady in the purple top.Jim, what gives you the right to tell you
:57:59. > :58:09.that I should not be able to marry the woman that I love, when you can
:58:09. > :58:10.
:58:10. > :58:14.marry the woman you love? And by your logic, if my labour can say he
:58:14. > :58:21.loves to three women -- if my neighbour... That is where you are
:58:21. > :58:28.going to end up. Once you depart from the tried and tested truth of
:58:28. > :58:35.marriage, the union of one man and one woman, it is a slippery slope.
:58:35. > :58:43.Polygamy is next. Why is polygamy wrong? Because it is contrary to the
:58:43. > :58:49.moral feelings of the community. Morals to affect legislature.
:58:49. > :58:59.ago, black people could not marry white people. Catholics could not
:58:59. > :59:01.
:59:01. > :59:07.marry Protestants. Here we are. Brazil is one of the countries that
:59:07. > :59:12.refuses to allow gay marriage. Jim is not scaremongering. The other
:59:12. > :59:21.thing that is not on the legislation is protection for churches. Edna