:00:14. > :00:19.claims that is what some women have told him. Is there are grey area?
:00:19. > :00:23.Tax avoidance is not illegal, but is it a moral. What is wrong with
:00:23. > :00:28.paying as little tax as you legally can? She is at the heart of a
:00:29. > :00:33.political row at Stormont, the voice of victims or a political pawn? Ann
:00:33. > :00:43.Travers is here to talk about her public and private battles. Jordan
:00:43. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.O'Keefe from Britain's Got Talent is on this show. Welcome along. Another
:01:17. > :01:25.big show. There are so many people at home who want to get in touch
:01:25. > :01:30.with us. Let us take a look at how to do so. If you're calling us,
:01:30. > :01:35.08459 555678. Calls cost 5p per minute. There will be an additional
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:01:40. > :01:50.are tweeting as it is that @stephennolan and our hashtag is
:01:50. > :01:53.#BBCNolan. You can text us on 81771. Now, the former Crimewatch presenter
:01:53. > :01:58.Nick Ross provoked a furious response at the weekend after
:01:58. > :02:04.extracts from his book Crime were published. He talks about women he
:02:04. > :02:13.spoke to. Let us look at what he said. He said for them, rape is not
:02:13. > :02:18.always rape. Let us listen to what he told us this week. Do you think
:02:18. > :02:25.if the woman gets drunk and gets into bed with someone and claims she
:02:25. > :02:34.was raped, do you think she is partly responsible? Is she to blame,
:02:34. > :02:39.no. She partly responsible? Of course she is. Just as a man would
:02:39. > :02:44.be if he put himself in a vulnerable situation. Any of us who put
:02:45. > :02:49.ourselves into a situation where we are vulnerable to crime must take
:02:49. > :02:53.responsibility. Heidi McAlpin, anyone who puts themselves into a
:02:53. > :03:03.vulnerable position, must take responsibility. I do not see a
:03:03. > :03:06.problem with what he said. People are getting sensational about this.
:03:06. > :03:10.He is a man talking about it, so that adds a different layer. If you
:03:10. > :03:15.are a woman who has drunk a lot and is out with your friends, and you
:03:15. > :03:22.end up in a vulnerable situation, is it not better to put in place
:03:22. > :03:30.circumstances that will not put you in that position? So if you are
:03:30. > :03:35.woman at in that situation, what? Binge drinking is a big problem.
:03:35. > :03:45.you partly responsible? It is not about responsibility. If you are
:03:45. > :03:47.
:03:47. > :03:49.raped, you are a victim. My point is... Do not get to that point of
:03:49. > :03:53.the night. Stay with friends. Be careful of how much you are
:03:54. > :03:56.drinking. There are men out there who will prey on women who are
:03:56. > :04:01.vulnerable. They are vulnerable because they have been drinking or
:04:01. > :04:06.got lost from their friends. That is my problem with the people who are
:04:06. > :04:13.jumping on Nick Ross and saying that he is wrong. Let us be open and
:04:13. > :04:21.honest about this. He went on to talk about, you would not leave a
:04:21. > :04:30.laptop in the back of your car! Purred Nick Ross. He is very naive
:04:30. > :04:38.to make such a trivial comparison. -- who are Nick Ross. I do not
:04:38. > :04:46.totally disagree. Rape is one of the most heedless crimes that can be
:04:46. > :04:51.perpetrated on anyone. The woman who have allegedly been abducted in
:04:51. > :04:56.America, who were used as slaves, the girl in India who was brutally
:04:56. > :05:02.raped while she was sitting with her boyfriend and then thrown off a
:05:02. > :05:10.bus. We have the Pakistani guys in England who abused girls. These sort
:05:10. > :05:15.of people are misogynistic, these are wicked, nasty evil men. Is that
:05:15. > :05:22.not every rapist? This is where I have the problem. There are loads of
:05:22. > :05:25.young people and when we were all young, we would have taken a drink,
:05:25. > :05:31.went out with our mates and you would have a young fella and I young
:05:31. > :05:36.girl... This is the problem, you cannot cut to the chase, you have to
:05:36. > :05:42.think about the broader issue. You can not make a comparison to what
:05:42. > :05:47.I've talked about in America, , you cannot make a comparison of what
:05:47. > :05:53.happened to those women and a couple of guys and girls going out for a
:05:53. > :05:57.bit of a drink. The guy is putting himself in a position where he could
:05:58. > :06:05.be accused of rape and the girl is putting herself into a position
:06:05. > :06:10.where she could be raped. Both of them have a responsibility. He talks
:06:10. > :06:16.about different grades of rape. Do you think we should look at it in
:06:16. > :06:22.different circumstances? We look at murder in different ways. I cannot
:06:22. > :06:26.claim that a young guy who gets drunk, meets a girl who gets drunk
:06:27. > :06:33.and the two of them have not got the ability to rationalise what they are
:06:33. > :06:36.doing and then one of them might have a regret in the morning and
:06:36. > :06:44.accuse the guy of rape, because the two of them are not able to think
:06:44. > :06:49.rationally. The law is really clear about this. The law talks about
:06:50. > :06:57.consent, unless you are sure that an individual is in the position to
:06:57. > :07:02.give consent, they do not have to resist. Then add guys should never
:07:02. > :07:10.pick up a girl who is drunk. You are putting yourself at a position where
:07:10. > :07:15.you can be accused of something that you might not have intended to do.
:07:15. > :07:20.There are two issues here. One issue relates to how women can keep
:07:20. > :07:27.themselves safe and a separate issue is to do with men who perpetrate
:07:27. > :07:33.rape. I think what happened with Nick Ross is that he merged the two.
:07:33. > :07:40.The perpetration of rape is about nonconsensual sex or reckless as to
:07:40. > :07:45.whether the woman or man consented to sex. I think the perpetration of
:07:45. > :07:50.rape lies solely with the perpetrator. It is as simple as
:07:50. > :07:55.that. No one is saying that it doesn't. What we are debating now is
:07:55. > :07:59.do not get to that stage of the night. If anyone who has been raped
:07:59. > :08:09.could rewind the clock and change the course of the night so they did
:08:09. > :08:15.not become a victim, they would do that. Rape is not perpetrated by
:08:15. > :08:25.someone being dragged up a lane, the vast majority of rates occur by
:08:25. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:30.someone close to the victim. Let me go to the very back row. It does not
:08:30. > :08:37.matter how much woman I drink has. A man should have more respect than to
:08:37. > :08:45.go to a woman, if she says no, rape is rape. What if she does not say
:08:45. > :08:51.anything? Then it is her fault. You have to speak up. So let us look at
:08:51. > :08:59.some of the circumstances. If someone is in bed and they are
:08:59. > :09:05.clearly so drunk that they cannot give consent. A man should know
:09:05. > :09:14.better. It is not the individual's fault? And man should have more
:09:14. > :09:18.respect than to go near her. There are some dangerous messages being
:09:18. > :09:21.arbitrated. It starts with Nick Ross talking about the sensitive issue
:09:21. > :09:25.about which he has little knowledge. If there are victims of rape
:09:25. > :09:31.watching this programme, they should in no way take from this message
:09:31. > :09:36.that they are to blame. Whether they were drunk or naked in the street,
:09:36. > :09:42.it is not an indication for someone to have sex with them. Introducing a
:09:42. > :09:47.level of ambiguity, about graduations, is wholly unhelpful.
:09:47. > :09:53.Surely, you cannot just say it is ambiguous. It is not. It is clear to
:09:53. > :10:02.me. I have the right to wear what I want, if I want to wear a short
:10:02. > :10:08.skirt, a low top... Why are you talking about different grades of
:10:08. > :10:16.rape? When you have young people who are consuming alcohol, having a good
:10:16. > :10:22.time, doing what, and they are heady with the atmosphere and the drink,
:10:22. > :10:26.they are not in any position to make any rational decision, neither the
:10:26. > :10:31.man or the woman. You cannot develop a situation where you decide because
:10:31. > :10:39.someone is not fit to say yes or no that you have fun -- some form of
:10:39. > :10:45.consent. You are then rapist. People that perpetrate it rapist. Whether
:10:45. > :10:49.it is your husband, a boyfriend or someone has got you intoxicated.
:10:49. > :10:54.Nick is in a timewarp. He has gone back 50 years and is damaging the
:10:54. > :11:04.good work done ie different organisations which have helped
:11:04. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:13.victims and encourage them to come forward. Nick Ross has come out and
:11:13. > :11:19.said that his words were taken and spun for sensationalist media and
:11:19. > :11:29.also he said that it is the antithesis of what his argument is.
:11:29. > :11:30.
:11:30. > :11:33.One second. The chapter has been put on the Internet in an effort by the
:11:33. > :11:40.publishers to clarify this confusion. I read the chapter and I
:11:40. > :11:45.did not gain anything by reading it, because I just do not get this. You
:11:45. > :11:54.would not leave a laptop in the back of your car, at bank would not leave
:11:54. > :11:59.money beside the door? That is rubbish. He is a journalist who has
:11:59. > :12:02.chosen particular surveys to try and serve his own purpose. He talks
:12:02. > :12:12.about men and women in domestic violence relationships and tries to
:12:12. > :12:24.
:12:24. > :12:28.We are allowed to walk around with what we want. There is a mixed
:12:28. > :12:32.message from you tonight. You are talking about the responsibility of
:12:32. > :12:36.someone who gets drunk. I am talking about young people who go
:12:36. > :12:41.out and what happens to them. I am not talking about a woman who is
:12:41. > :12:47.innocent to walking home, she has every right. If somebody rapes
:12:47. > :12:52.her... Did you see the way you introduce words like innocently?
:12:52. > :12:57.Who was it that said, serious rape? There is not a serious rape and no
:12:57. > :13:04.serious rape. It is just rape. is a war crime, perpetrated to
:13:04. > :13:11.dominate. We do not live in the utopian society, so protect
:13:11. > :13:18.yourself if you can. This whole subject area is very pertinent to
:13:18. > :13:22.you, what has happened to you in your life. Yes. I think that what
:13:22. > :13:26.we need to bear in mind is that rape is rape. The way that it has
:13:26. > :13:31.happened may have a different impact on people. I think one of
:13:31. > :13:35.the things that Nick was trying to save is that some women and men do
:13:35. > :13:38.not realise that there has been raped, because people do not
:13:39. > :13:43.understand what sexual violence and rape is. Sometimes when they
:13:43. > :13:47.realise they have been raped, it is a horror to them to even begin to
:13:47. > :13:53.accept that they have been raped. I think what we have to look at is
:13:53. > :13:58.giving out these messages that say that you have made yourself
:13:58. > :14:02.available. In the same way that... Rather than make yourself available,
:14:02. > :14:08.what about those who use language, you have left to suffer vulnerable?
:14:08. > :14:12.Is that fair to debate or not? Is that off-limits? I think that what
:14:12. > :14:17.we have to look at, when you are talking about people going out and
:14:17. > :14:20.getting drunk, what you are not often seeing is the fact that the
:14:20. > :14:24.perpetrators are the ones getting you drunk to get you into that
:14:24. > :14:28.honourable position in the first place. That is why many victims
:14:28. > :14:33.will not go forward because they think, I was drunk, it must have
:14:33. > :14:36.been my fault. That is the argument, or that is the difficulty that lot
:14:37. > :14:42.of women have and men have. They think it is their fault that the
:14:42. > :14:48.rate has happened. What these comments by Nick Ross has done has
:14:48. > :14:51.a reinforced Fatah really bad time for people the fact -- reinforced
:14:51. > :14:57.at a really bad time for people the fact that they are being made to
:14:57. > :15:03.feel they are responsible. As a survivor of rape herself, can you
:15:03. > :15:11.put words to the impact it has on an individual long-term? That
:15:11. > :15:18.brittle act? In terms of how it impact to life, your life can
:15:18. > :15:21.totally changed overnight as a result of what happens. Many people
:15:21. > :15:29.have post-traumatic stress disorder, that can go on for months and years.
:15:29. > :15:31.For some people it will go on all their lives. It can have all sorts
:15:31. > :15:37.of long-term mental health impact, it could have physical health
:15:37. > :15:41.impacts. It can have lots of invitations and I do not think we
:15:41. > :15:45.even know yet to the extent to that rape can have on people and the
:15:45. > :15:48.balance but it does. Do you welcome the debate around it ought do you
:15:48. > :15:52.think that people like Nick Ross should not even start the debate,
:15:52. > :15:57.talking about you would not leave a sackful of money at the door of a
:15:57. > :16:02.bank? I don't think the way he has introduced the debate is helpful.
:16:02. > :16:07.We are in a very difficult time. We got to a stage where suddenly
:16:07. > :16:11.victims, we were saying, yes, we will believe you. Even 20 years
:16:11. > :16:15.later, we will believe you. Then we have the question of anonymity at
:16:15. > :16:18.protecting the rapist. We are in a time when we are trying to throw
:16:18. > :16:23.back the whole time and say, we will give with one hand but take a
:16:23. > :16:27.lot more with another. What we are saying is, you have got to work
:16:27. > :16:33.harder to prove that you are a victim. There are some young people
:16:33. > :16:38.in the audience tonight he might not know your story, it was
:16:38. > :16:45.headline news. It is a very personal story to you. It is my
:16:45. > :16:50.life. People came up with those same arguments 27 years ago, and
:16:50. > :16:54.people were saying at the time, rape is about what you are wearing.
:16:54. > :16:58.If you wanted to use that in my scenario, I had a summer dress, it
:16:58. > :17:03.came to just above my knee, and I had a baggy jumper on. I could not
:17:03. > :17:10.win either way. I was not going anywhere, I was staying in my house
:17:10. > :17:14.that day. People broke into my house. They came, allegedly, to
:17:14. > :17:17.burgle the place in the first instance. That changed. There are
:17:17. > :17:23.different stories as to whether that was in everybody's mind he
:17:23. > :17:28.came that day. I do not know the ultimate truth. I was raped, I was
:17:28. > :17:35.assaulted. My dad was beaten up, my boyfriend was beaten up. They both
:17:35. > :17:40.had fractured skulls. We were left in a horrendous situation. And then
:17:40. > :17:44.you get these accusations thrown at you. And although some people will
:17:44. > :17:52.talk about radiation, the law actually does that anyway. --
:17:52. > :17:56.talking about radiation. The problem is some forces are issuing
:17:56. > :18:00.cautions when some people have admitted rape. I know this is a
:18:00. > :18:04.tough question from me. Because of what has happened to you, would you
:18:04. > :18:08.make a distinction between people who would break into a home and
:18:08. > :18:16.brutalise you and your family in that way, and someone who is drunk
:18:16. > :18:21.and did not ask for consent? think if you are talking about
:18:21. > :18:26.whether somebody is still a rapist, yes, they are still a rapist. I
:18:26. > :18:30.think there are different ways that the law views, and currently that
:18:30. > :18:34.is under debate as well, with Sentencing Council, about the
:18:34. > :18:38.different levels of violence that can be incorporated into the crime.
:18:38. > :18:44.It does not take away the fact that if you have not got consent, and
:18:44. > :18:53.that is not, she did not say yes, or whatever. You have to have
:18:53. > :18:59.consent. Thank you so much. A young man here, second row. I was
:18:59. > :19:03.thinking, going back to the original statement, is the main
:19:03. > :19:08.problem not the word partially responsible? Surely, if you leave
:19:08. > :19:14.your laptop in the car, using his own analogy, you won not partially
:19:14. > :19:20.responsible if it gets storeman. You are wiser not to leave it, but
:19:20. > :19:25.you are not responsible for the crime. It is getting back to what I
:19:25. > :19:29.originally said, Nick Ross did not say that rape, somebody who is
:19:29. > :19:34.raped is anything other than the victim. My point is still the same.
:19:34. > :19:39.If there is any way you can avoid being in a vulnerable situation,
:19:39. > :19:43.whether you're a man or woman, even a man who get inebriated and he is
:19:43. > :19:48.in danger of being beaten up in the street. There are different levels
:19:48. > :19:55.of a novelty you can have. As you get more drunk, -- have run well
:19:55. > :19:59.banality you can have. -- vulnerability. He has compared a
:19:59. > :20:03.crime against property against an intimate crime against a person.
:20:03. > :20:08.The only positive out of this thing will be for predators, those people
:20:08. > :20:13.who take advantage of the vulnerable. They will use this as
:20:13. > :20:19.an excuse that what they did... Those of sorts -- those sort of
:20:19. > :20:23.people can use anything as an excuse. He has got a book to sell.
:20:23. > :20:27.He has put that out there, he has got a book to sell. From my own
:20:27. > :20:30.point of view, and also from Heidi's point of view, and we all
:20:31. > :20:35.agree to a certain degree of what we are saying, we all absolutely
:20:35. > :20:40.agree that rape is wrong. A woman should not be attacked if she is on
:20:40. > :20:44.her own, or walking home, she has every right to wear what she wants.
:20:44. > :20:47.We live in a democracy, we are allowed to do what we want. There
:20:47. > :20:54.are not -- it is not our fault that there are some people out there who
:20:54. > :20:58.will attack us. We have to protect ourselves from these people. I want
:20:58. > :21:02.to know how you think you are making victims field. You have
:21:02. > :21:06.created a hierarchy of victims of the situation. The focus needs to
:21:06. > :21:13.be on teaching men not to rape, not telling women, maybe you should not
:21:13. > :21:19.have that much to drink. I didn't say. That is in a perfect world.
:21:19. > :21:24.That would absolutely be in the case. We need to talk about this
:21:24. > :21:30.openly without people bearing down and saying, you are saying that
:21:30. > :21:36.forms of rape come in different grades of seriousness. It is in a
:21:36. > :21:41.judgmental and balanced way. That is why so few people come forward.
:21:41. > :21:46.They fear the stigmatisation. Nick Ross is particularly guilty because
:21:46. > :21:52.he is a man of influence who had a position as a celebrity around
:21:52. > :21:56.Crimewatch. What he says, people will listen to. That is dangerous.
:21:56. > :22:02.Can I just go back, this young lady in the audience, I can say that you
:22:02. > :22:06.are visibly upset. I am upset, because I know people who have been
:22:06. > :22:10.victims of this crime. Just thinking about the offence that you
:22:11. > :22:15.are causing him what you are saying. You are transferring responsibility,
:22:15. > :22:18.at the end of the day, it is the rapist to make the decision to rape.
:22:18. > :22:22.A woman who does not -- a woman does not have responsibility to
:22:22. > :22:25.live her life in fear and think about, I should not have any fun
:22:25. > :22:32.because I might get raped. What kind of message is that? I agree
:22:32. > :22:37.with you. I did not say that. You're absolutely right. We have
:22:37. > :22:41.every right to do what we want. But it is not our fault that there are
:22:41. > :22:45.prats out there who will force their way on to us. Nick Ross, to
:22:45. > :22:52.be fair to him, because I spoke to him at length, he also said that in
:22:52. > :22:56.his view, rape is always break and he did say that this is what women
:22:56. > :23:02.who he interviewed said to him who had been raped. Is he is entitled
:23:02. > :23:09.to his views? I do not know who Nick Ross spoke to. I have been
:23:09. > :23:14.working with victims of sexual abuse, rape, for nearly 30 years.
:23:14. > :23:17.And the women I have worked with fall into three categories. There
:23:17. > :23:24.are women who had been raped and understand they have been raped.
:23:24. > :23:30.And they want to go to the police. As a side, and to that, over the
:23:30. > :23:36.last few years, I remember when I start of this area of work. It was
:23:36. > :23:39.appalling, and the police have worked very hard to create teams of
:23:39. > :23:44.specialists staff who are very sensitive to the victims. I think
:23:44. > :23:52.they have to be commended for that. You have one group of women who had
:23:52. > :23:56.been assaulted who want to go and report. And the whole journey
:23:56. > :24:00.through the courts system is a horrendous, absolutely horrendous.
:24:00. > :24:04.Then there is a second group of women who have been sexually
:24:04. > :24:08.assaulted and they realise that and they have no intention of going
:24:08. > :24:13.anywhere near court. Then there is a set -- a third group, and this is
:24:13. > :24:18.perhaps the group that Nick Ross was talking to, who have been raped
:24:18. > :24:24.and do not understand that rape within marriage is still right.
:24:24. > :24:31.me go to the young lady -- a rape within marriage is still rape. Let
:24:31. > :24:36.me go to this young lady. What about that unfortunate person who
:24:36. > :24:42.gets a drink spiked after one drink, a man comes along who is a knight
:24:42. > :24:46.in shining armour, but he is not, he is the actual rapist. It is not
:24:46. > :24:52.the fault of the moment when she is drunk. The point is, we have to
:24:52. > :24:57.protect ourselves. We are out of time. We can continue this online
:24:57. > :25:07.now, on Twitter. And on the radio show tomorrow morning. Details will
:25:07. > :25:11.
:25:11. > :25:15.Here is what is still to come on the programme tonight. It is legal,
:25:15. > :25:19.so what is wrong with companies or individuals avoiding tax? Be we
:25:19. > :25:29.really expect Google, Amazon or anybody else to pay more than they
:25:29. > :25:31.
:25:31. > :25:36.have to? We will be talking about that later on. Now, in 1984, Mary
:25:36. > :25:41.Travers was shot dead by the IRA. She was 23 years old. Have much
:25:41. > :25:46.straight father, Tom, the intended target, survived but was left
:25:46. > :25:51.seriously injured. The ambush happened when the family were
:25:51. > :25:56.leaving Mass in south Belfast. One of those jailed over her role in
:25:56. > :26:02.the killing was for 19 year-old Mary McArdle. She was sentenced to
:26:02. > :26:09.life but released in the Good Friday Agreement. In 2010, she was
:26:09. > :26:18.appointed an adviser to the Sinn Fein Cultural Minister Caral Ni
:26:18. > :26:28.Chuilin. It devastated and Travers, her sister. She has been
:26:28. > :26:39.
:26:39. > :26:46.campaigning to prevent prisoners political debate. Can you explain to
:26:46. > :26:52.me. You are comfortable with text prisoners being ministers, but not
:26:52. > :26:56.being special advisers, how is that logical? First of all, this bill is
:26:56. > :27:01.not just a Bill to stop paramilitary is getting jobs are special
:27:01. > :27:11.advisers, this. Anyone with a criminal conviction of five years or
:27:11. > :27:36.
:27:36. > :27:44.longer, that is anyone. Whether it is Republican, loyalists, . The
:27:44. > :27:48.Minister was elected, the Minister has a mandate, people know their
:27:48. > :27:54.background, they know who they are voting for. The special adviser is
:27:54. > :28:00.given the position by the party. They are given this position. They
:28:00. > :28:05.are getting between �80,000 and �90,000 per year so victims find
:28:05. > :28:11.themselves in a position that they are contributing to the person who
:28:11. > :28:21.was involved in the crime. I see that. Because politicians are also
:28:21. > :28:22.
:28:22. > :28:26.funded from our taxes, it is public money that is paying for them. You
:28:26. > :28:32.support ex-prisoners being politicians, being ministers,
:28:32. > :28:40.running departments, making decisions that will will affect
:28:40. > :28:46.hundreds of thousands of people. Yet special advisers is a no-no. I feel
:28:46. > :28:52.that politicians have an absolute responsibility to victims. There are
:28:52. > :28:59.thousands of victims in this country and thousands who have also left
:28:59. > :29:04.this country because they cannot live here any longer. I feel that
:29:05. > :29:12.when Mary McArdle was appointed, before she was appointed, I had
:29:12. > :29:20.moved on with my life. I did not think about her, much, I obviously
:29:20. > :29:29.remember my sister, but when she was appointed, it brought me back to a
:29:29. > :29:39.place where I never ever wanted to go back to. Can I ask, would you
:29:39. > :29:41.
:29:41. > :29:46.accept Mary McArdle as a teacher in this country? I am talking about the
:29:46. > :29:55.special adviser Bill, there are vetting procedures for teachers.
:29:55. > :30:05.any ex-prisoner. Would you accept them as a teacher, a lawyer, as a
:30:05. > :30:07.
:30:07. > :30:11.doctor, a nurse? Those positions are privately paid for... There are
:30:11. > :30:18.different vetting procedures. I do not have a problem with former
:30:18. > :30:22.prisoners getting jobs and moving on, that is not what I am about. I
:30:22. > :30:26.am not being vindictive towards ex-prisoners, asking them to live
:30:26. > :30:33.their lives in sackcloth and ashes, I am asking for consideration to
:30:33. > :30:39.their victims. We are talking about Stormont, it is not necessary. We
:30:39. > :30:44.are 15 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, is it necessary now to
:30:44. > :30:49.have this elite group of people who are gifted these positions to say,
:30:49. > :30:57.well done for being party loyal and well done for what you did? That is
:30:57. > :31:05.the message it sends out to me about is my right to have that. Does an
:31:05. > :31:14.ex-prisoner have a right to move on? Society has said we accept that you
:31:14. > :31:20.will move on. Is that what we have done? I think that we have all
:31:20. > :31:24.accepted a huge amount for peace. I think it is a really cruel thing to
:31:24. > :31:29.do to victims to turn around and say to a victim that because you are not
:31:29. > :31:38.happy, because you have spoken out about something, because it has
:31:38. > :31:41.appalled you so much, that you are in some way, against the peace
:31:41. > :31:45.process. It is in turn what people do to victims. We have had a
:31:45. > :31:50.conversation about rape. It has been put back on to me that it is my
:31:50. > :31:56.fault that I cannot accept what former prisoners do. My present is
:31:56. > :32:06.what my past is. I am not able to move on. Yes, I have got married and
:32:06. > :32:08.
:32:08. > :32:18.had children, but... This is very important. This bill is not just
:32:18. > :32:21.about former political prisoners, and also... It would also be a fact
:32:21. > :32:26.in Northern Ireland, this is so complex, that no one speaks for all
:32:26. > :32:32.victims and there will be people screaming out that they believe they
:32:32. > :32:39.are victim of collusion, a victim of the British state. Absolutely. I am
:32:39. > :32:43.not speaking for all victims. What I said on Thursday was misrepresented
:32:43. > :32:49.when I said this bill was for all victims. How could I presume that I
:32:49. > :32:55.speak for all victims? June what strikes me looking at this audience,
:32:55. > :33:00.there would be quite a few, because we get a huge mix of an audience and
:33:00. > :33:06.I am looking at a lot of young faces in this audience. They probably,
:33:06. > :33:14.with all due respect, will not know your story and will not understand
:33:14. > :33:24.your trauma. Can you tell them, very quickly? You were 14 years old.
:33:24. > :33:27.
:33:27. > :33:31.was. I had been to an earlier Mass and my sister, who was 23, and in
:33:31. > :33:38.her first teaching job, was walking home from Mass with my parents. They
:33:38. > :33:45.were chatting about her and how she was taking her children to make
:33:45. > :33:54.their first confessions. They were about 200 yards from our home. They
:33:54. > :34:03.heard a gunshot. My dad thought that he heard somebody say, somebody has
:34:03. > :34:07.been shot and they stopped and he turned around and he saw a map. A
:34:07. > :34:15.man was waving something underneath some newspapers. He said to him,
:34:15. > :34:20.what do you want? The man said, it is you that we want.
:34:20. > :34:27.Simultaneously, Mary said, daddy, that man has a gun and she said
:34:27. > :34:33.that, another gunman from across the road, shot her once in the back. My
:34:33. > :34:39.sister, Mary. She fell into my mother's arms. As she was lying
:34:39. > :34:44.dying, the gunman walked over to my mother and help a gun to her head,
:34:44. > :34:47.where he tried to fire it three times, but it jammed. In the
:34:47. > :34:54.meantime, the other gunman stood over my father and put six bullets
:34:54. > :35:00.into him. The first I knew about it was my brother ran into my bedroom
:35:00. > :35:09.and told me to come quickly, mother and father had been shot. I asked
:35:09. > :35:15.what he meant. He said hurry up! I ran out of the house and he ran into
:35:15. > :35:19.the bedroom of my parents. My dad would not have any security. He was
:35:19. > :35:26.a resident magistrate. He would not have any security because he did not
:35:26. > :35:33.want to put the lives of anyone else at risk and he would not carry a
:35:33. > :35:37.gun. Police -- Paul was on the police radio. He got through to the
:35:37. > :35:43.emergency services, my other brother was on the phone and I ran down and
:35:43. > :35:52.I saw my mother leaning over my dad, saying my per husband, someone
:35:52. > :35:56.please help him. Mary was lying awkwardly am a gurgling. Dad was
:35:56. > :36:04.trying to undo his tie. My brother Martin came down with me and it was
:36:04. > :36:09.just bedlam. Mary McArdle, who was 19, she was arrested a short
:36:09. > :36:15.distance away, walking a dog. She was found to have two handguns
:36:15. > :36:21.strapped to her legs in surgical socks. She was convicted of murder,
:36:21. > :36:26.attempted murder and a number of firearms offences. The gunman that
:36:26. > :36:30.day had been wearing wigs to disguise themselves. When they got
:36:30. > :36:35.up and when Mary McArdle got up on that morning, they had a different
:36:35. > :36:40.experience from my parents and my family. When my parents are my
:36:40. > :36:46.sister got up and they had their breakfast, they were planning to go
:36:46. > :36:55.to Mass and spend the rest of the day, how it was to be. Whereas the
:36:55. > :37:00.gunman and Mary McArdle got up, got dressed, she put on surgical
:37:00. > :37:05.stockings, the gunman took their guns and there are wigs and went out
:37:05. > :37:10.knowing that they were going to commit murder that day. Knowing that
:37:10. > :37:18.my father, or hoping that my father would not be coming home to his
:37:18. > :37:24.family. You know, I understand what you are saying and I know at the
:37:24. > :37:34.start of the interview you asked me about the bill. These jobs are
:37:34. > :37:35.
:37:35. > :37:42.gifted. There was no need... Victims have got to be allowed to speak up.
:37:42. > :37:48.I am blessed that I have been given that chance. If I caused you any
:37:48. > :37:58.offence, I am deeply sorry, but I want to keep this balanced. It is
:37:58. > :38:00.
:38:01. > :38:10.Northern Ireland, people will have different views. What is Mary
:38:11. > :38:12.
:38:12. > :38:18.McArdle, and I do not know her, but what if every inch of her body is
:38:18. > :38:24.thrusting towards trying to create a peaceful society. What if she is
:38:24. > :38:28.deeply sorry for reformed or she would say, there was a conflict and
:38:28. > :38:34.a different context back then, and that she is trying to make Northern
:38:34. > :38:42.Ireland a safe place? We do not know that and I do not know that, but
:38:42. > :38:50.what if? Would you forgive her? is very easy. Mary McArdle has said
:38:50. > :38:55.that my sister's murder was a tragic mistake. She has said that publicly.
:38:55. > :39:00.She has never said sorry. She also said that she could not say anything
:39:00. > :39:10.more because it would risk offending me, in other words she would justify
:39:10. > :39:11.
:39:11. > :39:15.going out and shooting my father. The historical enquiries team wrote
:39:15. > :39:25.to her and asked for her help in their investigation and she ignored
:39:25. > :39:29.
:39:29. > :39:36.the letter. I wonder, former prisoners and people involved in the
:39:36. > :39:40.troubles, yes they are moving forward, who would not want to have
:39:40. > :39:47.peace? I do not know one single family who would not want to have
:39:47. > :39:51.peace. I do not know one. I did not... After my sister was murdered,
:39:51. > :40:00.I did not go and join a loyalist organisation or go out and murder. I
:40:00. > :40:03.had the opportunity, the flat that the gunman head in, I had the
:40:03. > :40:06.opportunity to actually... This guy was walking across the road and I
:40:06. > :40:14.had the opportunity to knock him down, but I did not do that. That
:40:14. > :40:24.was my choice. I think it is time the politicians started showing the
:40:24. > :40:24.
:40:24. > :40:30.victims and respect them. I know there will be a raft of different
:40:30. > :40:34.opinion throughout Northern Ireland. You can contact us on Twitter and on
:40:34. > :40:44.our radio show. We can continue this discussion. Please give her a round
:40:44. > :40:54.
:40:54. > :40:59.of applause. In terms of a mix of a show, you get a sense, we were
:40:59. > :41:05.talking about rape at the top of the programme, we were talking about a
:41:05. > :41:07.lady there who is clearly deeply traumatised, and you just know that
:41:07. > :41:12.elsewhere in Northern Ireland people will be saying different things
:41:12. > :41:17.about that interview and now we are going to talk about a talent show
:41:17. > :41:23.season on television. A few weeks ago we had Connor Scott from The
:41:23. > :41:27.Voice on and now it is the turn of Jordan O'Keefe, a trainee estate
:41:27. > :41:37.agent who blew the judges away on Britain's Got Talent with his
:41:37. > :41:58.
:41:58. > :42:08.version of One Direction's little I'm in love with you.
:42:08. > :42:18.
:42:18. > :42:23.There he is, let's talk, hello, Jordan! How you?Never mind about
:42:23. > :42:29.me, you are the man of the moment, what stage a year out in the
:42:29. > :42:34.competition? We are at the summer final stage. -- semi-final stage.
:42:34. > :42:41.It is not on tonight, what has been shown since Monday is the semi-
:42:42. > :42:47.finals. There has been so much great talent, it is fantastic.
:42:47. > :42:52.you excited? Today as the first time I got to go to the studio and
:42:52. > :42:57.see everything, it was mind-blowing. It was not as big as it seems on TV.
:42:57. > :43:05.Everything there is mind-blowing, fantastic. And of course, there is
:43:05. > :43:10.this story. That your dad has changed your course from music to
:43:10. > :43:16.business studies, because what, you tell me? It wasn't that he was
:43:16. > :43:21.doing anything wrong on me. It wasn't good for me to do music. It
:43:21. > :43:26.was just that he wanted me to have a career. He thought bigger than
:43:26. > :43:29.the -- he thought that doing the music writ, I wasn't going to get a
:43:29. > :43:33.career out of it. He thought if he put me in the business route it
:43:33. > :43:39.would be a back-up plan. If you don't make it in music, you have
:43:39. > :43:45.something to fall back on. It probably was not a bad thing to do.
:43:45. > :43:50.But I have proved him wrong! Have you got it in your heart that you
:43:50. > :43:55.could win this? I am trying, all I can do is try my best. I hope I get
:43:55. > :44:00.to the final. I will take it step by step. Hopefully I'll get to the
:44:00. > :44:05.finals. If I win, that will exceed expectations. I am excited to see
:44:05. > :44:12.how what is happening. How long have you been singing? When I
:44:12. > :44:16.started, I was singing in a bar in Spain, singing Stevie Wonder and I
:44:16. > :44:21.got the place up and going. That is my first memory of it. I started
:44:21. > :44:25.properly singing when I was 14, writing songs and stuff. I started
:44:25. > :44:33.when I was young. Isn't it amazing that when you follow your dream and
:44:33. > :44:37.to keep on pushing, it is amazing Ed Wright. How while I you? I am 19.
:44:37. > :44:44.You on British television on a big show. Whether you win it on not,
:44:44. > :44:48.you have a platform, you have momentum but -- behind you and you
:44:48. > :44:52.can go where you want. That is why I went on the show, it gives you a
:44:52. > :44:55.platform as you said. Hopefully I will get something out of it. The
:44:55. > :45:00.main thing is to get something a lot of it. Hopefully that will
:45:00. > :45:09.happen. We are proud of you, and we wish you all very the best. Thank
:45:09. > :45:19.you for having me. Give him a round of applause.
:45:19. > :45:38.
:45:38. > :45:46.Before we move on, let us remind I have got the phone right here, if
:45:46. > :45:50.you are treating me, I can see it. Tax avoidance, it is legal, doing
:45:50. > :45:55.whatever you can to pay as little tax as possible. Jimmy Carter paid
:45:55. > :46:01.an effective rate of tax of 1%. -- Jimmy Carl. He was battered by the
:46:01. > :46:06.press. Apple were criticised for channelling revenue through
:46:06. > :46:10.offshore subsidiaries to avoid paying tax over four years. The
:46:10. > :46:14.Apple chief executive defended the practice, saying it was within the
:46:14. > :46:19.letter and the spirit of the law. If it is within the law, is there
:46:19. > :46:25.anything wrong with tax avoidance? Let's start with David Barnes.
:46:25. > :46:32.you are obeying the law, what is the problem? The problem is that
:46:32. > :46:38.the law, ought to be more precise the UK tax code, is an 11,500 page
:46:38. > :46:41.on the, the most complex tax code in the world. Within those pages
:46:41. > :46:45.there are lots of opportunities for accountants and other financial
:46:45. > :46:51.people to find reasons for companies to reduce their to
:46:51. > :46:55.Operation Pax. -- corporation tax. When you need a doctor, police
:46:55. > :47:00.officer, that money is coming from somewhere, there is a moral
:47:00. > :47:04.obligation to pay for it. We knew what a dog and a career, you need
:47:04. > :47:09.companies to deprive them. If you - - if you want a job and career, you
:47:09. > :47:15.need companies to provide them. So penalising companies of taking
:47:15. > :47:18.advantage of the legal tax code seems hypocritical of a part of the
:47:18. > :47:22.politicians who in the first instance but the tax code in place.
:47:22. > :47:27.It is one of those things were there is one law for the rich and
:47:27. > :47:32.one for the poor. The average person will not be able to avoid
:47:32. > :47:36.paying tax. It gets taken out of your wages. The poorer you are, the
:47:36. > :47:40.higher the marginal rate of tax, the match you paid for example, if
:47:40. > :47:44.you are getting tax credits, your wages are so low you get tax
:47:44. > :47:53.credits, just earning a couple of pounds more public can actually
:47:53. > :47:57.lose you �50 per week in tax. That idea that there is something OK...
:47:57. > :48:01.Companies are taxed on profit, individuals are parched -- taxed on
:48:01. > :48:05.their income. I would like to see tax on individuals reduced as well.
:48:06. > :48:14.Let's have parity all round. The government taking as much money as
:48:14. > :48:19.they can, pilfering it... This is a very important figure that people
:48:19. > :48:25.need to know. A recent report from Oxfam found that there is 12
:48:25. > :48:31.trillion, I do not know how many zeros that is, 12 trillion pounds
:48:31. > :48:37.just from individuals in tax havens across the world's with individuals
:48:37. > :48:41.hiding their tax. That is such an amount of money, and the tax on
:48:41. > :48:49.that per annum would be �100 billion per year from individuals.
:48:49. > :48:52.Think of what that would be in a welfare reform and austerity.
:48:52. > :48:58.think if anybody knew they could get away with not paying taxes,
:48:58. > :49:03.they would do it, but we cannot. You are saying the majority of
:49:03. > :49:09.people said they would get away with it? If there was a way around
:49:09. > :49:14.it. One of you get your wage bill every month, we look at the tax, it
:49:14. > :49:22.is horrible. Is there anybody in the world who wants to pay more tax
:49:22. > :49:27.for many to? Of course not. How many people are watching this
:49:27. > :49:36.programme and they have an eye so? That is reducing tax liabilities.
:49:36. > :49:44.have heard this argument before, and I set his bag government-backed
:49:44. > :49:48.scheme -- an ISA. That the government is encouraging be able
:49:48. > :49:54.to avoid tax. -- there is no way that the government is encouraging
:49:54. > :49:59.people to avoid tax. constructed the tax code, Stephen?
:49:59. > :50:08.The politicians. The politicians who posture and tell us how immoral
:50:08. > :50:13.these corporations are. They are hypocrites. I live in the Cameron,
:50:13. > :50:18.-- in the community, David Cameron says we are all in this together,
:50:18. > :50:24.no we're not. Big businesses can avoid taxes. Those taxes could help
:50:24. > :50:27.our health, education and help address her Mrs -- address
:50:27. > :50:31.homelessness so we can live a good laugh. That would mean that
:50:31. > :50:41.governments do not have to tax and welfare. We are going to have a
:50:41. > :50:45.more young people who are homeless. I live in the asylum committee --
:50:45. > :50:51.community and I am proud because they have given me a home and Abed
:50:51. > :50:56.unlike politicians. They are only there for their only money. Those
:50:56. > :51:00.people who were earning money and say, I will not break the law, I
:51:00. > :51:07.will not evade tax but I will have made as much as possible? They
:51:07. > :51:15.should pay their fair share. How do you define fair? 35, 40? He should
:51:15. > :51:21.pay a lot in taxes. Jimmy White, what is there? -- what is fair?
:51:21. > :51:25.idea that the government can work it out is farcical. The whole point
:51:25. > :51:31.about tax is it is a voluntary -- in a voluntary, you get put in
:51:31. > :51:35.prison if you do not pay. If the company paid more tax than it
:51:35. > :51:40.legally needed to, what it is doing is making a donation to the
:51:40. > :51:48.government. When people make donations, they very rarely make it
:51:48. > :51:52.to the government. If the managers of company were to pay more than
:51:53. > :51:56.the tax they are legally have to, they would be acting immorally.
:51:56. > :52:04.Because they are agents on behalf of the owners of the firm. The
:52:04. > :52:10.moral duty is to be the owners of the firm. This is typical class war
:52:10. > :52:14.language from the very wealthy. On one hand you have Tory politicians,
:52:14. > :52:18.and unfortunately politicians in Stormont, who tell us that you have
:52:18. > :52:23.to accept that the local daily will be closed, the care homes will be
:52:23. > :52:28.shut, the local school will be shut because there is not money to fund
:52:28. > :52:33.these services. Important services that people rely on. That is your
:52:33. > :52:39.problem. We do not all live on the big salaries of the bankers who got
:52:40. > :52:47.us in this mess. The reality is, there is plenty of money to pay for
:52:47. > :52:51.basic services. When you use the word will Faye, aren't you resort
:52:51. > :52:55.to the class warfare language itself? -- of the word wealthy?
:52:56. > :53:00.When these are just there is plenty to money -- when you suggest there
:53:00. > :53:04.is plenty of money to go around, how should the government have own
:53:04. > :53:08.right to companies' profits? They have an obligation to shareholders
:53:08. > :53:13.and profits to be profitable. If government pilfers from profits,
:53:13. > :53:17.that is bad frock everybody. Even socialists should understand that.
:53:17. > :53:21.The idea that workers are getting a lot of money from any companies
:53:21. > :53:25.these days, would actually workers have seen their wages across the UK
:53:25. > :53:30.and world been pushed down year on year for the last 10 years,
:53:30. > :53:37.included in real terms in the public sector. There has been a pay
:53:37. > :53:40.freeze in the public sector. There is a man here, let's have a look.
:53:40. > :53:50.For these particular tax avoidance is, they seem to have more in
:53:50. > :53:55.London rather than Dublin. Let me go up here. In view of the enormous
:53:55. > :54:05.pay set-up paid to be the BBC presenters from the public purse...
:54:05. > :54:09.Here we go! And you are all clapping at this! Is it appropriate
:54:09. > :54:14.that those presenters should them to themselves into private
:54:14. > :54:19.companies to avoid paying tax? question would go back to you, some
:54:19. > :54:23.people might say, what does the law say? What is within the law? Who
:54:23. > :54:31.defines what is legal? avoidance is legal, tax evasion is
:54:31. > :54:34.illegal. It is up to the government to close the loopholes. Until the
:54:34. > :54:42.government close the loopholes, is it fair game for anybody to tries
:54:42. > :54:46.to maximise their wealth? Morality cubs at which as well. -- comes
:54:46. > :54:51.into it as well. I think it is a question of conscious. So you have
:54:51. > :54:59.a better standard of morality the more tax to pay? No, as the key
:54:59. > :55:02.have to pay your adequate cover in terms of the deficits, a lot of
:55:03. > :55:08.people would want to do the right thing, and paid the tax that they
:55:08. > :55:14.should pay. This discussion is slightly silly. Going back to
:55:14. > :55:18.corporations, corporations cannot pay tax. They can write the cheque
:55:18. > :55:23.but the cost of taxation cannot fall of a corporation. The costs
:55:23. > :55:27.can only be bought by individuals. The cost of corporation tax falls
:55:27. > :55:32.on three group of people. Shareholders of the company, the
:55:32. > :55:36.employees of the company, the shareholders through lower
:55:36. > :55:40.dividends, the employers through low wages, and the customers to
:55:40. > :55:45.high prices. There is no such thing as a company. It is a legal fiction.
:55:45. > :55:49.If you are keen on corporate tax, what you're really keen on his
:55:49. > :55:52.taxing employees, consumers and shareholders. The problem with
:55:52. > :55:57.corporate tax is that it is very opaque. It is not clear whether
:55:57. > :56:05.burden falls. It is very avoidable. It is a very silly tax. It should
:56:05. > :56:10.be eliminated. Let me bring him Mary. I am 60 years of age, and I
:56:10. > :56:15.have been a healthcare professional all my life, worked all my life,
:56:15. > :56:20.even when I had children I work part-time. I put money into a
:56:21. > :56:24.pension scheme. I am still being taxed, and it makes me very Tech --
:56:24. > :56:30.cross that these multi-millionaire companies are not paying tax. And
:56:30. > :56:34.there is me, taxed all my life, 68 and still paying tax. Are you cross
:56:34. > :56:39.at the companies or the government for allowing it to happen? Whoever
:56:39. > :56:46.is responsible. I just don't think that at my age, I think I should be
:56:46. > :56:56.taxed on money but I saved towards my pension. Companies feel the same.
:56:56. > :57:00.There is a contribution -- it is the same government here who has
:57:00. > :57:08.reduced corporation tax to one telling of the companies. Where is
:57:08. > :57:12.the logic in that? But you know and I know that companies use a thing
:57:12. > :57:17.called transfer pricing or miss pricing, where they will say, maybe
:57:17. > :57:21.I'd better not name the company. They will say, to use our main, you
:57:21. > :57:25.have to pay so many millions to this company, likely to be in
:57:25. > :57:29.Dublin, actually, or in London. By putting the money through that way,
:57:29. > :57:35.by charging your own company discovered, you can do away with
:57:35. > :57:38.having to pay tax. You have said, we have made no profits. Starbucks
:57:38. > :57:48.are the obvious one. They are maximising the return for the
:57:48. > :57:51.
:57:51. > :57:57.They are not lying. The point is, but they are declaring within the
:57:58. > :58:01.law. The law has been written by politicians who did not represent
:58:01. > :58:09.the interests of normal people. They represent the interests of big
:58:09. > :58:19.business. So who does represent the interests of deep normal people?
:58:19. > :58:19.
:58:19. > :58:24.Why are they recollected? We lack people to rot as a normal people.