:00:09. > :00:13.He was one of the best-known faces in showbiz, at the top of his TV
:00:13. > :00:16.game. Michael Barrymore is in this studio to tell us how his world
:00:16. > :00:24.collapsed around him. Stormont has said no to anyone with
:00:24. > :00:34.a serious conviction becoming a special political adviser.
:00:34. > :00:36.members voted. The motion is carried. So does Northern Ireland
:00:36. > :00:46.now have a hierarchy of victims of the Troubles?
:00:46. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:20.And there's a surprise for someone Welcome to the programme. Then cue
:01:20. > :01:22.for joining us. For over a decade he was Mr
:01:22. > :01:25.Saturday night, a guaranteed ratings winner, and one of
:01:25. > :01:29.showbiz's most bankable stars. But then an addiction to drink and
:01:29. > :01:31.drugs, and the death of a man at his Essex home in 2001 led to his
:01:32. > :01:41.world collapsing around him and his life changed forever. Ladies and
:01:41. > :01:51.gentlemen, please welcome Michael Barrymore. Hello, Mike Hall. Good
:01:51. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :02:04.to see you. Hello. How are you doing? You love the crowd?Of
:02:04. > :02:05.
:02:06. > :02:11.course I do, it has been my life. am 39, up I was born in 1973. I
:02:11. > :02:16.know I look a lot younger. Therefore I have an understanding
:02:16. > :02:24.of where you were at the very, very top. Can you describe what it felt
:02:25. > :02:29.like when you were up there? don't think you really take it in
:02:29. > :02:38.because it becomes such a big machine. You are working at it all
:02:38. > :02:47.the time and it is so fought on. You cannot think about the 18
:02:47. > :02:53.million people watching. My drug of choice is my work. I was addicted
:02:53. > :03:00.to that. I knew what I wanted to do when I was a child. I have no idea
:03:00. > :03:05.I was going to do it. I came from the docks. I have an Irish mother.
:03:05. > :03:13.I was brought up in Mayra. It was enough for me to just get up there
:03:13. > :03:16.and do it. -- in County Mayo. I've always genuinely liked people.
:03:16. > :03:25.There are a lot of people in the business who are good at what they
:03:25. > :03:31.do, but they do not like people. They are not mad about people
:03:31. > :03:36.themselves. I have never been like that. I was always very outgoing,
:03:36. > :03:45.so it was important how people reacted to me, how they felt about
:03:45. > :03:51.me and how they perceive to me. I never manufactured how I was. I did
:03:51. > :03:59.not put a face on that suited them. For that reason, I was very open
:03:59. > :04:04.and I did not mind my vulnerability been showed on stage. Did you enjoy
:04:04. > :04:14.it? I guess from having the perspective of losing it...
:04:14. > :04:24.
:04:24. > :04:34.Actually, let us have a look back. Then KPI very much! In Hello! --
:04:34. > :04:35.
:04:35. > :04:42.thank you very much. Clearly from the story I now know about you -
:04:42. > :04:47.drink, drugs, addiction, I wonder when I see that, what was the real
:04:47. > :04:53.Michael behind that. He is the real one. That is the real one it you
:04:53. > :04:57.see. There was no real separation. A lot of the time because I mix
:04:58. > :05:02.with people rather than people in show business, people would say,
:05:02. > :05:07.you are Michael Barrymore. I never really took it seriously. It was
:05:07. > :05:14.the making of me and probably my downfall. I did not see what the
:05:14. > :05:20.problem was. I did not take on board how big it was. Ever. I still
:05:20. > :05:26.don't. I am still humbled by the way people are with me and I have
:05:26. > :05:31.had this relationship with the public for a long, long time. Even
:05:31. > :05:39.through all the worst times as well. In terms of the drinking, when did
:05:39. > :05:44.you spot you had a problem? What it from early on? I did not drink or
:05:44. > :05:50.get into drugs. I did not start smoking cigarettes and till I was
:05:50. > :05:55.in my thirties. Success brings its own unemployment. So you get paid a
:05:55. > :06:03.lot more money to do a lot less. You have got all this time and I
:06:03. > :06:11.suddenly thought, who admire and I found the drink and drugs. I what
:06:11. > :06:17.you mean by that? Well, I had given no time to find out who I was. When
:06:17. > :06:27.I was a child, I made my friends laugh at school. Then it became a
:06:27. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:37.living. By then the gain success for. I then -- I then became
:06:37. > :06:47.successful. As a child, I thought if I could get �100 a week, I would
:06:47. > :06:52.
:06:52. > :06:59.be happy. I never actually took it seriously. And the drink was
:06:59. > :07:05.filling what Gap, Michael? At first I thought it was because I was gay.
:07:05. > :07:10.You must have known from pretty early on? I was actually happily
:07:10. > :07:16.married and it was not something that bothered me. There were odd
:07:16. > :07:25.times and then the drink led to things. And I would think, I don't
:07:25. > :07:35.know how to deal with this. It just came upon me. It really did. Were
:07:35. > :07:41.you drinking after shows? I had a golden rule. I know it probably
:07:41. > :07:50.looked like I did, but I never took anything before I worked. But what
:07:50. > :07:59.about after? I went for it then. What does that mean? I would drink
:07:59. > :08:04.wine in my dressing room. But you just come out of a studio audience
:08:04. > :08:09.like this with people absolutely the drawing you, so why do you need
:08:09. > :08:19.drink? You are on a high. You are sitting in a dressing room and
:08:19. > :08:19.
:08:19. > :08:24.everyone thinks you're brilliant. It is wanting to keep... No drug
:08:24. > :08:27.can replace the adrenalin you get from working with a live audience.
:08:27. > :08:33.I was trying to replace that and I did not want a high to come down
:08:33. > :08:38.from where I was. It was not enough. The come down is so much of the
:08:38. > :08:45.adrenalin. Can you describe the comedown, when you go back into the
:08:45. > :08:50.dressing room? It is just a complete drop. You are buzzing and
:08:51. > :09:00.buzzing from the audience, especially the way I work where it
:09:00. > :09:05.is all improvisation. That is why my live performances got such a
:09:05. > :09:15.following because it would just before the crowd that night. When
:09:15. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:20.you are working so much, I used to dread going on holiday. I would be
:09:20. > :09:30.miserable in some of the most beautiful places in the world and
:09:30. > :09:38.
:09:38. > :09:47.it is a sad thing to say. success brought you sadness? It did.
:09:47. > :09:51.It was slowly killing me though. If you are an addict, of people
:09:51. > :09:59.actually don't understand what the diction is about. What is wrong
:09:59. > :10:05.with you? You have money, you have success, you are laughed. I have my
:10:05. > :10:12.family and everything. And then, why do you want to do this? It is
:10:12. > :10:19.called the diction. You had that aspect of your life and you are a
:10:19. > :10:23.man of contrast. The public perception is that you are happy,
:10:23. > :10:27.but yet you had this reality way you go back to your dressing room
:10:27. > :10:37.and you are sad because you need that adrenalin and you get hooked
:10:37. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:47.on alcohol. By the way. Sorry, if I could have worked 18 hours a day,
:10:47. > :10:57.every day, up I would not have need -- I would not have needed drink or
:10:57. > :11:00.
:11:00. > :11:10.drugs. Things have changed, the money has run out and I would be
:11:10. > :11:12.
:11:12. > :11:21.happy to work in McDonald's. But if I did that, I would cause such a
:11:21. > :11:30.problem, they would have to dismiss me and then I would sue them for
:11:30. > :11:37.unfair dismissal. Then I would move on to Burger King and KFC. Why was
:11:37. > :11:47.there that emptiness in your life. You had that lady in your life, she
:11:47. > :11:51.was right by your side. How comes that was not feeling the emptiness.
:11:51. > :11:58.I it was a husband, her lover, we lost a couple of children when we
:11:58. > :12:03.first married. I wanted to adopt and she didn't. We came away from
:12:03. > :12:12.the adoption society and she said, are you doing this for me because I
:12:12. > :12:16.don't need children. I did not answer. I thought, how can we do
:12:16. > :12:26.that if I'm the only person that once it. I did not say anything
:12:26. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:32.else. Then, I had too much wrapped up in been one person. She was
:12:32. > :12:42.totally addicted to me. She was your manager and she was
:12:42. > :12:51.
:12:51. > :12:56.we know in the stewed dwro audience, before the show Michael said to me,
:12:56. > :13:04.ask me anything you like. There is nothing off limits. And in that
:13:04. > :13:09.spirit, Michael, when you got married to Cheryl, had you any ink
:13:09. > :13:11.cling that you were gay? Do you want the theatrical answer or the truth?
:13:11. > :13:17.I want the truth. LAUGHTER
:13:17. > :13:23.Mm, I thought that getting married would stop the feelings. Does that
:13:23. > :13:28.answer it? And it did for a long time and then it came back and
:13:28. > :13:33.reared its head again, you know. Were the feelings intense when you
:13:34. > :13:43.got married? Were you finding more men than women attractive? No, no, I
:13:44. > :13:44.
:13:44. > :13:47.wasn't brave enough. Was brought up in the Docks. . I was brought up in
:13:47. > :13:53.Bermondsey. You don't put your hand up and a strong Catholic upbringing
:13:53. > :13:56.and stuff like that. I was going to be a he priest, can you imagine?
:13:56. > :14:00.LAUGHTER But it was a stage. I loved it. I
:14:00. > :14:07.mean I loved being an altar boy. You got paid for doing weddings and
:14:07. > :14:11.stuff like that. I did the Rosary every night.
:14:11. > :14:17.You had this secret that you hoped the homosexual feelings would go
:14:17. > :14:22.away? Because it got so successful, the work, all that, I didn't even
:14:22. > :14:27.think about it. So I think in a way, I was throwing myself so much into
:14:27. > :14:31.my work. We were such a unit together. And we had a great sex
:14:31. > :14:35.life as well. It is not as if there wasn't that as well, you know, we
:14:35. > :14:42.were very, it was working all the way around and I think where success
:14:42. > :14:45.came, I just found it too much that I couldn't cope anymore with, not
:14:45. > :14:51.the pressure, I mean all this about the pressure and it wasn't pressure
:14:51. > :14:55.to me. I love what I do. I adore what I do. I still do. I never lost
:14:55. > :14:58.the passion despite the crap that I have had to deal with. All the
:14:58. > :15:04.things that happened. All the mistake I have made. I have to look
:15:04. > :15:14.at my part in things. I can't go, " Oh, it is them. Them. Them." You
:15:14. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:28.know. I don't mean you, you, you, by the way! Will we swap?I love the
:15:28. > :15:32.way you got yourself facing the audience and I'm like...
:15:32. > :15:38.LAUGHTER Cross your legs.
:15:38. > :15:43.LAUGHTER Can we talk about the night that I
:15:43. > :15:49.guess, well a massive night in your life and a night that a young man
:15:49. > :15:52.died. Yes. At your home. You have been out that
:15:52. > :15:57.night partying. Yes. Yes.
:15:57. > :16:00.Why did you bring people back to your house, Michael? I thought it
:16:00. > :16:03.was OK. There is probably loads of people in this audience that either
:16:03. > :16:06.had people back at their house and they didn't know who they are.
:16:06. > :16:09.Not if you are a Saturday night TV superstar, you know you are
:16:09. > :16:15.vulnerable. I didn't see that. I didn't see what
:16:15. > :16:20.the problem was. I was drunk, what time of night is it? Can I swear? I
:16:20. > :16:26.was drunk. I was kissed, well, that's not really swearing, is it? I
:16:26. > :16:33.was off my tits, that's getting better. It is a serious matter. I
:16:33. > :16:38.was, I thought there was an arm on this, sorry. I was, I was gone and
:16:38. > :16:44.one guy said, " I will be your security." I went OK. We came back.
:16:44. > :16:47.I think deep down if I was being honest and I am come dport --
:16:48. > :16:52.comfortable enough to be honest, sometimes with interviewers you
:16:52. > :16:56.close up because you get the feeling, " Where is this going?" I
:16:56. > :17:03.will be honest honest and say that to you now.
:17:03. > :17:07.Thank you. I think sometimes it is a bit of, the London boys done well. I
:17:07. > :17:11.came from nothing, from family, and showing off.
:17:11. > :17:18.You know, it is the big house. The nice sound system.
:17:18. > :17:22.Michael, what happened? What happened? Stewart was found dead in
:17:22. > :17:28.your swimming pool. Where were you? I was in the house and the others
:17:28. > :17:34.went out. They said, " Can they go in the pool?" I said, it is half-way
:17:34. > :17:39.being built. Drew the top back. You have got a picture of this it there.
:17:39. > :17:44.The switch is over there on the left and that goes back to show the light
:17:44. > :17:53.up from underneath. There were four girls as well which the Press
:17:53. > :17:56.conveniently leave out. And I went and had a joint with James and I
:17:56. > :18:03.can't remember his name now, it doesn't matter and then we went back
:18:03. > :18:07.out and he said, " Do you want to go into the jacuzzi?" When we went
:18:07. > :18:12.outside I looked down and I didn't even know Stewart's name at the
:18:12. > :18:17.time. It was just a another member of the party, right? Looked down and
:18:17. > :18:23.he was there floating in the pool. What did you do? The first thing I
:18:23. > :18:30.did was run back into the house and get the, Jonathan who I knew had a
:18:30. > :18:34.life-saving experience and the other guy came with him and James and a
:18:34. > :18:39.few of us jumped in, because I can't swim, and the other one jumped in. I
:18:39. > :18:44.didn't see that, but they jumped in to get him and I went to get the
:18:44. > :18:49.other two. They came out. They started working on him. The other
:18:49. > :18:53.one was going around, I was starting to freak out and the girls started
:18:53. > :18:57.screaming and he was just lying there and he wasn't moving much and
:18:57. > :19:02.James said, " Come away. There is no more you can do. The ambulance has
:19:02. > :19:09.been called. They are working working on him." So how it was
:19:09. > :19:15.reported is that you ran away? I didn't runaway. They never report
:19:15. > :19:18.that the first thing I did was to go and get help. But they choose not to
:19:18. > :19:23.report those things. They were working on him. I was standing there
:19:23. > :19:28.and instead of going "no, I should stay here. I went with the lads down
:19:28. > :19:33.the bottom of the drive. I didn't ring my PR agents and say, " I never
:19:33. > :19:39.had a PR agent." I don't employ the likes of Max Clifford, I never have
:19:39. > :19:44.done. The PA was my personal assistant. I rang and said, " A guy
:19:44. > :19:49.is guy is in the pool. If the police need me, I am in James' place at the
:19:49. > :19:52.bottom of the drive." It didn't look good you leaving the scene? No. No,
:19:52. > :19:57.it is one of the worst things I could have done and when it gets
:19:57. > :20:03.reported and the way it has been reported all over the years, as it
:20:03. > :20:08.has been done, it can't look right, can it? It can't look right at all,
:20:08. > :20:15.but that doesn't make me guilty of something that never happened in the
:20:15. > :20:20.first place. You know, they wanted it to fit the way they wanted it to
:20:20. > :20:25.fit instead of what the facts were. This is the national press? Yes.
:20:25. > :20:29.Always have done all the way along as has been proven now it is
:20:29. > :20:32.starting to come out about various things with the phone hacking. If
:20:32. > :20:36.they were phone hacking people which they were at the time which they are
:20:36. > :20:39.about to apologise in a few weeks time for hacking my phone.
:20:39. > :20:45.They have already settled with you. There will be an apology, the
:20:45. > :20:48.wording is still to be agreed? Yeah, yeah, but there is a point,
:20:48. > :20:52.are if they were hacking my phone, which they were, they would know
:20:52. > :20:57.that I made no phone calls to anybody saying, " Don't say this to
:20:57. > :21:02.the police and don't say that." Why didn't they report that to the
:21:02. > :21:06.police? They choose not to give that information. They go on about we do
:21:06. > :21:10.what we do because we want to bring justice. Well, look as a journalist,
:21:10. > :21:14.I am going to say this to you because I want people to see your
:21:14. > :21:19.eyes and I want people to be able to hear it from you rather than how it
:21:19. > :21:24.is reported. Right? You know that a lot of the audience in this studio
:21:24. > :21:28.and at home, you know when they are watching this interviewer what they
:21:28. > :21:35.will be asking themselves, they will be saying scwd did he do it?" How do
:21:35. > :21:40.you cope with that and what do you say to them? Well, absolutely not.
:21:40. > :21:45.No way did I do it. If I did, I would have put my hands up ten years
:21:45. > :21:50.ago or 11 years whatever it is. I couldn't. You know, I haven't spoken
:21:51. > :21:56.about this properly like this, properly really at all to be honest.
:21:56. > :22:01.I do find it difficult to talk about, not because I'm guilty of
:22:01. > :22:06.anything, but because I didn't do anything. I did a stupid thing. I
:22:07. > :22:09.walked away from the scene, but I had already gone in and got help to
:22:09. > :22:14.bring him out. Nothing happened to the guy there.
:22:14. > :22:21.Michael then you become from becoming one of the most loved
:22:21. > :22:27.people in the country, a lot of people hate you and a lot of people
:22:27. > :22:34.are forming decisions about you and you are front page news and the
:22:34. > :22:40.press are vicious about you Yes. What's going on inside your head?
:22:40. > :22:46.Well, a couple of times... destroyed you? A couple of times I
:22:46. > :22:50.thought "I would be better off out of this." Because, you know, I was
:22:50. > :22:54.banging the table saying "this isn't right. This isn't what has gone on.
:22:54. > :22:57.This isn't what happened. I am not guilty of anything." The way it was
:22:57. > :23:01.reported as well, a lot of people believe, they say, " Well, all that
:23:01. > :23:07.trial is over." There was no trial. There never has been a trial, but
:23:07. > :23:10.the way it was reported is if there was a trial and because you are
:23:10. > :23:14.Michael Barrymore, you got off something. Oh, you got away with
:23:15. > :23:18.something. That's my point. That's what some
:23:18. > :23:21.people will be thinking. How do you live with that? Well, who led them
:23:21. > :23:26.down that road? Who made them believe that? Who made them believe
:23:26. > :23:31.that? What's your answer? The press.And
:23:31. > :23:35.why would they want to do this to you, Michael? The police didn't help
:23:35. > :23:39.either. Why didn't the police correct things either? Well, the
:23:39. > :23:43.police can only arrest someone when they have reasonable grounds for
:23:43. > :23:50.suspicion? Yeah, but a lot of people with respect to a lot of people that
:23:50. > :23:53.do, a lot of people don't know the difference between arrested under
:23:53. > :23:56.suspicion of doing and being charged. The reason I have not been
:23:56. > :24:00.charged with anything, there is nothing to charge me for. There is
:24:00. > :24:05.no evidence. When the front pages and I remember
:24:05. > :24:09.seeing them, because remember that you... One of them was, " You are a
:24:09. > :24:15.murderer." How do you get around that? How do you think that made me
:24:15. > :24:21.feel? When you saw it, how did you feel? Completely destroyed. Twice I
:24:21. > :24:24.have been carted off to the hospital with overdoses over the last ten
:24:24. > :24:29.years, not renltly. I have got myself to a better -- recently. I
:24:29. > :24:33.have got myself to a better place. You know, as the interview has gone
:24:33. > :24:38.on, when we was going through that bit right now, I was feeling, I
:24:38. > :24:43.started to close in a bit and I started to breakthrough a bit. I am
:24:43. > :24:47.telling you how I feel as it is going along. When you make people
:24:47. > :24:51.smile all your life, how do you show remorse? How do you apologise one
:24:51. > :24:57.for things you haven't done and when you have to say, " Well, hang about,
:24:57. > :25:01.there is your part." I guess if I'm honest, how do you restore a
:25:01. > :25:09.reputation which maybe, maybe, you can't restore because so much damage
:25:09. > :25:14.has been done? Maybe it is damaged goods, yeah. You thought of taking a
:25:14. > :25:18.your own life? Again, that was, you know, I did hang in another day. I
:25:18. > :25:23.did hang in a bit better and I have got myself well enough to be able to
:25:23. > :25:30.cope with an interview like this because there is no way that I would
:25:30. > :25:34.have been fit enough, well enough, I'm not, I'm nod I hadcated. I'm --
:25:34. > :25:41.I'm not educated, I haven't got all the fancy words to make it work and
:25:41. > :25:45.so it flows in a nice even package, it is not all thought through. I
:25:45. > :25:50.said, when you came in and said hello in the dressing room, I didn't
:25:50. > :25:55.say, you know, "What's the list of questions?" You asked me what you
:25:55. > :26:01.want and I didn't think, you know, I felt comfortable enough with you.
:26:01. > :26:07.Mid-way, if the fact that you have gone the way you have, that's fine
:26:07. > :26:10.and that's good because... The process I'm feeling is I'm going
:26:10. > :26:15.through the feeling, as it is happening now. And do you think...
:26:15. > :26:20.And because I'm well enough to be able to deal with it because I have
:26:20. > :26:26.every reason to hold my head up high and I have no reason. For all those
:26:26. > :26:31.years when I walked around with a baseball cap on my head hiding from
:26:31. > :26:34.people and terrified of life. were terrified of people? I was
:26:34. > :26:38.terrified of what people thought. Why would they believe anything else
:26:38. > :26:40.when they have only been told one thing. They have only been told one
:26:40. > :26:45.side of the story and never the correct side.
:26:45. > :26:50.How long did you hide from people for? When I am at the father, his
:26:50. > :26:53.father, of course, he is upset. The guy died here. The 31-year-old guy
:26:53. > :27:03.lost his life. How long did you hide for? Seven or
:27:03. > :27:22.
:27:22. > :27:30.You were a man who lived for the stage. And the very thing that kept
:27:30. > :27:40.me going is no longer there. you fighting the press? I am. I
:27:40. > :27:43.
:27:43. > :27:47.cannot say much for legal reasons. Two years ago when one of the cases
:27:47. > :27:57.started, the lawyer said, do you want to take this on because you
:27:57. > :27:59.
:27:59. > :28:06.have a lot to deal with? I said, I have nothing to Leeds. It is like
:28:06. > :28:15.tonight. It is not a like St, how you deal with staff, because I did
:28:15. > :28:23.not know we were going to go down this road. Everything has gone. I
:28:23. > :28:33.do not sit in resentment. I do not live in the past. So what is your
:28:33. > :28:34.
:28:34. > :28:41.dream now. I have seen you tweet that you will be back. Back where?
:28:41. > :28:50.I don't know. It's not for me to say. Do you think you could be a
:28:50. > :28:54.big star again? I am a big star, I am not on. To be fair to you, when
:28:54. > :28:58.I have talked about what other people might think, I think there
:28:58. > :29:06.will be a lot of people thinking you are a big star. I think there
:29:07. > :29:16.will be a lot of people who say you make them laugh and you have an
:29:16. > :29:26.incredible talent. Well, you know. You don't actually lose it, do you?
:29:26. > :29:30.
:29:30. > :29:40.Do you want that? Well... Can I have some water? Yes. Thank you.
:29:40. > :29:50.This is my first time in Northern Ireland. Do you like it?It is
:29:50. > :29:56.
:29:56. > :30:06.different. It is heavy here. What was that? I mean, beat Saturday
:30:06. > :30:07.
:30:07. > :30:13.nights, when I was that age, if it is the right thing, you know... I
:30:13. > :30:21.do not wait for the phone to ring. I have got my Jack Russell called
:30:21. > :30:27.Dave. I have got used to being on my own. My final question - what is
:30:27. > :30:35.your dream? My dream... I am going to pick up the best supporting
:30:35. > :30:44.actor Oscar nomination. I have not got a clue how I am going to do it,
:30:44. > :30:48.but one or two things will happen. I'll either pick it up, or die. And
:30:49. > :30:57.if I die, I won't know that I've picked it up, so I can't really
:30:57. > :31:05.lose. Can I say thank you it very much. They are screaming in my ear
:31:05. > :31:15.because we have gone over. I have never used one of those. Well, I'll
:31:15. > :31:17.
:31:18. > :31:27.just take it out. Ladies and gentlemen, Michael Barrymore.
:31:28. > :31:32.
:31:32. > :31:42.you. The thank you very much. -- thank you very much. Still to come
:31:42. > :31:43.
:31:43. > :31:53.- there is a surprise for a member of this audience. Hello. What is
:31:53. > :31:55.
:31:55. > :32:05.your name? We will get a microphone to you. What is your name? Olive.
:32:05. > :32:06.
:32:06. > :32:15.Well, I can tell you that tonight, the surprise is that you! -- is not
:32:15. > :32:23.you! If you want to get in contact with us, details are on the screen.
:32:23. > :32:26.Right, let us move on. Does Northern Ireland now have a
:32:26. > :32:29.hierarchy of victims? That's what's being claimed this week after a
:32:29. > :32:30.Bill was voted through Stormont banning anyone with a serious
:32:30. > :32:33.conviction, including ex paramilitaries, from ministerial
:32:33. > :32:35.special adviser posts. As a result, an adviser to Martin McGuinness
:32:35. > :32:38.will lose his job because of his IRA past.
:32:38. > :32:41.Paul Kavanagh was sentenced to life imprisonment after his IRA bombs
:32:41. > :32:44.killed three people and injured many others in England in 1981. The
:32:44. > :32:47.SDLP are under fire from Sinn Fein for failing to block the Bill from
:32:47. > :32:57.going through. The SDLP's leader Alasdair McDonnell said there was a
:32:57. > :32:59.
:32:59. > :33:09."pecking order" of victims. There is a hierarchy of people. A small
:33:09. > :33:10.
:33:10. > :33:20.handful of people who are the elite within Sinn Fein. It mills that
:33:20. > :33:22.
:33:22. > :33:25.Paul Kavanagh's needs are down in the pecking order.
:33:25. > :33:28.So, is there a hierarchy of victims from the Troubles? Should there be?
:33:28. > :33:30.Or should everyone who has suffered because of the violence be treated
:33:30. > :33:32.the same? Former soldier John Radley, who was
:33:33. > :33:40.permanently injured in the 1981 Chelsea Barracks bomb for which
:33:40. > :33:47.Paul Kavanagh was jailed, is with us tonight. Hello. Good evening.Is
:33:47. > :33:51.it right there should be a hierarchy of victims? Should
:33:51. > :33:57.special advisers as well as everyone else have a chance to work
:33:57. > :34:04.in the new Northern Ireland? Not a tour. There is no hierarchy of
:34:04. > :34:09.victims. There are just victims. Paul Kavanagh was convicted as an
:34:10. > :34:19.IRA bomber. People have died because of him. I have been
:34:19. > :34:27.seriously injured. I lost my job. What happens? I was a member of the
:34:27. > :34:35.Irish Guards, based at Chelsea Barracks. Paul Kavanagh and his
:34:35. > :34:45.friend planted and nail bomb. As I passed it, it exploded. I suffer
:34:45. > :34:46.
:34:46. > :34:52.every single day of the week. Two people were killed. Let's hear what
:34:52. > :35:00.Paul Kavanagh has said recently. There will be people there would
:35:00. > :35:06.argue that he should be perceived as anyone else. I know how my own
:35:06. > :35:16.family feels because we had a brother killed. But to say you are
:35:16. > :35:18.
:35:18. > :35:28.taking your Leeds like that, I don't understand it. This appears
:35:28. > :35:29.
:35:29. > :35:37.to be more discrimination. What he felt a mention is that his brother
:35:37. > :35:47.was shot and killed because he was planting a bomb. He had a choice.
:35:47. > :35:56.
:35:56. > :36:01.Don't plant a bomb and then you will not be killed. I will say
:36:01. > :36:06.there many people from all sides of the community lost their lives at
:36:06. > :36:11.the hands of the IRA and the British Army. What we have to
:36:11. > :36:17.remember is there was a context to all of this. We will disagree over
:36:17. > :36:27.what that context was, but the most important thing now is that we must
:36:27. > :36:29.
:36:29. > :36:33.move beyond conflict. He said there was a conflict, he was it against?
:36:33. > :36:40.It was between the state and the Republicans and also loyalists were
:36:40. > :36:48.involved. The British army was involved as well. So why then were
:36:48. > :36:54.they more civilians killed than the Security Forces? Your complete was
:36:54. > :37:01.again civilians. There are many complex against this world, in Iraq,
:37:01. > :37:06.in Afghanistan... Were we are not talking about that. Why is Paul
:37:06. > :37:11.Kavanagh or a victim? He was a teenager when he lost his brother.
:37:11. > :37:19.He was growing up at a time when there was discrimination within the
:37:19. > :37:29.state. That is the context within which he joined the IRA. We are in
:37:29. > :37:32.
:37:32. > :37:42.a different place now. The Nice to beat Rehabilitation and
:37:42. > :37:42.
:37:42. > :37:48.reintegration. Your party has said, or we might have agreed to be good
:37:48. > :37:57.Friday Agreement that victims and prisoners and ex prisoners were an
:37:57. > :38:07.integral part of it, but let now throw that out the window. We are
:38:07. > :38:08.
:38:08. > :38:18.not saying that at all. Yes, you are. If you compare Paul Kavanagh
:38:18. > :38:24.or to someone like Ann Travers, she is a victim. He murder people.
:38:24. > :38:29.There is a difference. So there is a hierarchy of victims? There is a
:38:29. > :38:39.pecking order? I am saying there is a distinct difference, and the
:38:39. > :38:39.
:38:39. > :38:49.audience can judge it from -- for themselves. But to be fair to Sinn
:38:49. > :38:59.Fein, there is no difference in the law. Answer me this, up was Ann
:38:59. > :39:01.
:39:01. > :39:08.Travers someone who used violence? I am the same age as Paul Kavanagh.
:39:08. > :39:13.I did not go and seek out a gun to kill people or use a bomb. I used
:39:14. > :39:18.my brains, I used my political energy to try and change things.
:39:18. > :39:22.You would not have the Good Friday Agreement without the prisoners.
:39:22. > :39:30.They played a part and I accept that. It was important that they
:39:30. > :39:36.did. We gave an undertaking to everybody involved... Including
:39:36. > :39:40.prisoners. Prisoners are not discriminated against within hour
:39:40. > :39:45.society as far as the law is concerned. They are discriminated
:39:45. > :39:55.against because they cannot get certain jobs. What I am saying is
:39:55. > :39:57.
:39:57. > :40:01.that as a generality, prisoners are not discriminated against. We try
:40:01. > :40:08.to help them to bring them into the mainstream. That is what I support
:40:09. > :40:15.and that is what my party supports. There is not a hierarchy of victims
:40:15. > :40:20.and I tell you why... But he believes they raised. I'd do not.
:40:20. > :40:27.You have just said so and your leader have said so. He did not. He
:40:27. > :40:31.was making the comparison between Paul Kavanagh and Ann Travers. He
:40:31. > :40:41.used that phrase in order to illustrate the sharp contrast that
:40:41. > :40:51.existed between the two of them. when the phrase pecking order was
:40:51. > :40:53.
:40:53. > :40:59.used, he did not mean it? He used that phrase and I accept he used it.
:40:59. > :41:07.Do you back in? A I am telling you the point that he was making. The
:41:07. > :41:17.contrast between Paul Kavanagh and Ann Travers, it is a stark contrast.
:41:17. > :41:22.Many people lost their lives and the danger of going down the road
:41:22. > :41:29.of a hierarchy of victims is that we really need to remember the
:41:29. > :41:39.victims and their families and friends that had been left behind.
:41:39. > :41:40.
:41:40. > :41:48.-- have been left behind. You lost your son. Are you comfortable
:41:48. > :41:56.saying that your son was a victim, equally just as much as someone
:41:56. > :42:00.with a bomb in their hands? An icon of double? I am not, but I've take
:42:00. > :42:05.the view that there was an agreement in 1998 which was an
:42:05. > :42:12.attempt to draw a line and begin a period of transformation to turn
:42:12. > :42:16.this part of the UK into a peaceful society. They have to be a lot of
:42:16. > :42:24.unpalatable things, like the prisoner release programme which
:42:24. > :42:30.will, from a selfish perspective, caused you to be upset. If you
:42:30. > :42:34.stand back and say, I will do what I can to build peace or relations,
:42:34. > :42:44.then I can hardly be a hypocrite and so, I want to speak to Sinn
:42:44. > :42:53.
:42:53. > :42:56.a bomb in their hand and a child standing in the street, you think
:42:56. > :43:01.they are both equal victims? No, I don't attempt to have that
:43:01. > :43:05.conversation with myself. If I focussed orn that and you are
:43:05. > :43:12.compelling -- on that and you are compelling me to, if I focussed on
:43:12. > :43:17.that, I would probably end up being locked away. But I mean I can't
:43:17. > :43:21.myself work with the hierarchy because if I did, I would be taking
:43:21. > :43:25.a particular positions and I could hardly have a peace charity which is
:43:25. > :43:31.what I have. We have an open door. We talk to anybody, perpetrators,
:43:31. > :43:35.victims, ex-military, we do a lot of work with former soldiers and former
:43:35. > :43:45.paramilitaries. We work with everybody and unless we start to do
:43:45. > :43:46.
:43:46. > :43:49.that across the piece... You think he should keep his job, Colin?
:43:49. > :43:53.Sorry Colin, I have seen you lots of times on the Television. I tried to
:43:53. > :43:56.contact you today. The one fundamental point that everybody is
:43:56. > :44:00.missing here, pecking order. There is no pecking order. A victim is a
:44:00. > :44:04.victim. End of story. What we are talking about here is people who
:44:04. > :44:09.murder people. If you are going to give reconciliation to prisoners to
:44:09. > :44:13.have jobs as personal adviser for whatever, give them that. Do not
:44:13. > :44:18.give those jobs to people who murder people. Whether they be British or
:44:18. > :44:28.Irish. Do not give those jobs to murderers. Paul Kavanagh has no
:44:28. > :44:31.
:44:32. > :44:36.right to sit in a �90,000 a job that's paid for by the taxpayers.
:44:36. > :44:41.APPLAUSE Let me ask Patricia McBride. Where
:44:41. > :44:46.would you stand on this with Paul Kavanagh and others like him?
:44:46. > :44:51.think that this issue in terms of the Special Advisers Bill is a
:44:51. > :44:55.political prisoner issue. It is an - it is regarding ex-prisoners and has
:44:55. > :45:01.been made into a victims issue when it should not have been. I think
:45:01. > :45:05.that the comments of Alistair McDonald at the weekend were
:45:05. > :45:08.insensitive and offensive and when he talks about a pecking order of
:45:08. > :45:13.victims, and he compounded that by repeating it again in the assembly
:45:13. > :45:17.on Monday when he was questioned on it. And it is very hurtful for
:45:17. > :45:22.people out there. What I have to tell you though is let's look at
:45:22. > :45:25.where the legislation is. It defines a victim very clearly as someone who
:45:25. > :45:30.is bereaved, someone who has been injured and someone who cares for a
:45:30. > :45:34.person that has been injured. It does not define the dead. Fed we
:45:34. > :45:37.constantly -- if we constantly have our arguments and our discussions
:45:37. > :45:42.around the rights and the wrongs of who did what, we can't change the
:45:42. > :45:52.fact that these people are dead. What our job has to be is not to
:45:52. > :45:52.
:45:52. > :45:57.make moral judgements around the dead, but to support the living.
:45:57. > :46:01.Basil McCrea, why did you vote for the Bill? Of course, there is
:46:01. > :46:06.victims. This is just ridiculous. This is people... In law there is
:46:06. > :46:10.no? This is people trying to say black a white.
:46:11. > :46:19.Someone who is or has been physically or psychologically
:46:19. > :46:26.injured has as a result of or in relation to conflict incidents. Or
:46:26. > :46:30.someone who has been bereaved as a result or in consequence of a
:46:30. > :46:34.conflict related incident, that's Paul Kavanagh. If that's the law,
:46:34. > :46:41.the law can be changed and that's what we did in the assembly. I go
:46:41. > :46:44.back and the people can shake their head or whatever... You agreed to
:46:44. > :46:52.the Good Friday Agreement? I agreed to the principles, but it was
:46:52. > :46:57.subject to change and I will tell you this and I know and I have met
:46:57. > :47:07.ann Traveres. She is is a very honourable, descent woman. She is
:47:07. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:11.not the same as people that are considered in this.
:47:11. > :47:15.Your new party is prepared to rip up elements of the Good Friday
:47:15. > :47:19.Agreement? Our new party is prepared to recognise what is right. We will
:47:19. > :47:22.say what has to be said... So you are not going to stick to the Good
:47:22. > :47:26.Friday Agreement? The problem with this country it keeps trying to say
:47:26. > :47:31.that black is white. It keeps trying to ignore reality and I will tell
:47:31. > :47:35.you this. We will change elements of it that are wrong. We will speak out
:47:35. > :47:40.and say, " Dh is not the right way forward. There were mistakes and it
:47:40. > :47:45.is not right." In all of my time working with victims, never once did
:47:45. > :47:51.I hear a victim say that someone who had been bereaved who was in need
:47:51. > :47:55.safrlt of that bereavement should not receive help and the fact that
:47:55. > :48:01.Basil is talking about changing, trying to implement changes in the
:48:01. > :48:07.law. Where he does create that hierarchy, it is wrong. The SDLP has
:48:07. > :48:17.a moral obligation to apologise for the comments they made which were
:48:17. > :48:17.
:48:18. > :48:21.insulting to victims. Ann Travers was a victim. Where does the SDLP
:48:21. > :48:25.get the moral authority to decide where people sit on the pecking
:48:25. > :48:31.order? Do you have the moral authority to decide where people
:48:32. > :48:38.sit? Ask the audience, what is the difference between Ann Travers and
:48:38. > :48:45.Paul Kavanagh? Ann Travers was not a perpetrator... One second. I want to
:48:45. > :48:48.speak to Michael riley tonight. Ann Travers never lifted a gun or a
:48:48. > :48:54.bomb. I want to know about the equality
:48:54. > :48:57.here. Everybody has been talking about Ann Travers and everybody,
:48:57. > :49:02.Paul Kavanagh. How come British soldiers who murder people in
:49:02. > :49:05.Northern Ireland, who are convicted of murder and are sentenced to life
:49:05. > :49:15.in prison, can be reinstated into the British Army with a rival in
:49:15. > :49:18.their hand? Is that right, Basil? So he they have been reinstated that
:49:18. > :49:22.back into the Army? I will tell you what is right is to look at matters
:49:22. > :49:25.with sensitivity. There is no argument from me that says when you
:49:25. > :49:29.finish a conflict that you have to find a way of getting people
:49:29. > :49:35.reintegrated back into society, but what is not correct is where you
:49:35. > :49:41.have someone like Ann Travers and it has been personal... To be fair.
:49:41. > :49:45.Michael has a valid question. Should the British soldiers that were
:49:45. > :49:51.responsible for murdering had his brother. Should they be banned from
:49:51. > :49:55.going back into their job? course, they should be banned. It is
:49:55. > :49:57.ridiculous they were put back in. The only Army in the country that
:49:57. > :50:01.recruited murderers back into its ranks.
:50:01. > :50:09.There is an issue about trying to come to an agreement in public, no
:50:09. > :50:14.the behind closed doors, about how you are going to deal with people
:50:14. > :50:18.who were combatants. I do discriminate, I say there is a
:50:19. > :50:23.difference between, I do say there is a difference between people that
:50:23. > :50:25.are innocent of any wrongdoing... That's a change from the position of
:50:25. > :50:30.the Good Friday Agreement. For 14 years there have been ex-prisoners
:50:30. > :50:37.in this role in the assembly. The SDLP never raised this issue before
:50:37. > :50:42.and the Ulster Unionist Party never raised it before. It is wrong to
:50:42. > :50:47.take this step. Stephen, I would like to say, people
:50:47. > :50:52.of a certain age in this country have all been victims of some level
:50:52. > :50:57.or another. Some people are hurt more than others through terrorism
:50:57. > :51:03.and listen tonight again, bad politicians. Bad politicians who
:51:03. > :51:09.always use the orange card or the green card. Never the human card.
:51:09. > :51:15.There is a man here. Yes, John Allen. Where are you John Allen?
:51:15. > :51:20.John, where are you? Your son was killed by the UVF? My son was killed
:51:20. > :51:27.by the UVF. I class him as a victim. He was killed because he was a
:51:27. > :51:31.friend with a guy who was in the police protection PSNI protection
:51:31. > :51:40.programme. And that's why he was killed. I class him as a victim.
:51:40. > :51:44.Paul Kavanagh murdered three people. And in my eyes he is not a victim
:51:44. > :51:50.and it was said last week that he was going to get the sack. This is
:51:50. > :51:56.spin from Sinn Fein or the BBC. He will not get the sack. Did Mary
:51:57. > :52:05.McArdle get the sack? She was side shifted. Paul Kavanagh will still
:52:05. > :52:11.have his wages. He will not be Martin McGuinnesses... Dud he was be
:52:11. > :52:15.side shifted. This is a clearly a breach of the
:52:15. > :52:18.European convention of the Human Rights. We will be challenging this.
:52:18. > :52:28.We will continue talking about this on the radio show. Give our guests a
:52:28. > :52:34.round of applause. APPLAUSE
:52:34. > :52:40.All right, now, we love it at home when you get in touch with the
:52:40. > :52:46.programme and just yesterday we received an e-mail from a young man
:52:46. > :52:50.who actually wanted to make things happen in our TV studio and that
:52:50. > :52:56.young man is right here, hello. Hello.
:52:56. > :53:00.And he was talking about you You are the surprise on the show
:53:01. > :53:06.tonight! LAUGHTER
:53:06. > :53:11.Tell us what you said to us. Just basically I wanted to ask if she
:53:11. > :53:15.could come on and sing for you, Stephen, to make your night? Why?
:53:15. > :53:19.She is a young up and coming singer and she has just finished her exams
:53:19. > :53:22.and it would be a nice wee gift for her and she is always giving off
:53:22. > :53:26.that I never surprise her. Here is what we are going to do. It
:53:26. > :53:29.is a risk, it is a live TV show, but I will tell you what, we are a
:53:29. > :53:35.programme that likes to give a break to local people. It would be our
:53:35. > :53:43.honour if you sang for us tonight. Right? In a couple of seconds after
:53:43. > :53:49.we look at how our series went so far.
:53:49. > :53:57.Yes, there is any abuse of any process. I don't know. I can't look
:53:57. > :54:06.into the man's mind or the man 's soul. What is Arlene Foster getting
:54:06. > :54:10.out of it? Has there been or not? Has there been?
:54:10. > :54:20.# You belong to me # You are my sweetheart #
:54:20. > :54:25.
:54:25. > :54:30.I would like to ask Jeffrey... Jao It is Gregory! # So rock me mama
:54:30. > :54:33.like the wagon wheel # Rock me mama anyway you feel #
:54:33. > :54:38.I want a Northern Ireland that is peaceful. I want the violence to
:54:38. > :54:42.stop. When ladies sit, she prayed to God
:54:42. > :54:47.at night that he would take her home.
:54:47. > :54:52.You don't see Scotland, they don't get their flag removed. Dublin, you
:54:52. > :54:55.can tried the tricolour in Dublin, why? That's the British flag.
:54:55. > :55:05.You need to understand that people died for the tricolour as well.
:55:05. > :55:16.
:55:16. > :55:20.People died for a united Ireland. The stories should be told.
:55:20. > :55:26.My father was murdered. If you really believe that, stop the
:55:26. > :55:30.job cuts in the public service. Stop destroying jobs. I think if you are
:55:30. > :55:34.disabled, it is not appropriate to do it. Sorry, did you just say if
:55:34. > :55:40.you are disabled, it is not appropriate to do it? Yes, but I'm
:55:40. > :55:43.not here you Mr Nolan for you to put words into my mouth. You might be
:55:43. > :55:50.very good at doing that with other people, but you will not be doing it
:55:50. > :55:55.with me. How about it on designated days?
:55:55. > :56:05.Would you agree with that? # I am in love, love, love
:56:05. > :56:08.
:56:08. > :56:18.# Only love survives # Ladies and gentlemen, from one
:56:18. > :56:32.
:56:32. > :56:40.e-mail in ended our series, It is # I'm going to live forever
:56:40. > :56:46.# I'm going to cross that river # I'm going to catch tomorrow night
:56:46. > :56:50.# You're going to want me to rock me # Just like I always hold you
:56:50. > :56:57.# You're going to miss me when I'm gone
:56:57. > :57:07.# Nobody here will ever find me # You I will always be around
:57:07. > :57:10.
:57:10. > :57:12.# Just like the sun's always behind # I'm going to live forever now
:57:12. > :57:16.# I'm going to live forever now # I'm going to live forever now
:57:16. > :57:23.# #
:57:23. > :57:31.# # Your fathers and your mothers, be good to one another
:57:31. > :57:38.# Raise your children right # Don't let the dark darkest
:57:38. > :57:48.# Take me to the light # When this old road is full of
:57:48. > :57:57.summers # And all the stars come in the sky
:57:57. > :57:58.# We will live forever you and I # We will live forever you and I
:57:58. > :57:59.# # Your fathers #
:57:59. > :58:01.# #
:58:01. > :58:02.# #
:58:02. > :58:03.# #
:58:03. > :58:04.# #
:58:04. > :58:14.# #
:58:14. > :58:20.# I'm going to live forever # I'm going to cross that river
:58:20. > :58:27.# I'm going to catch tomorrow night # I'm going to live forever
:58:27. > :58:32.# I'm going to cross that river # I'm going to catch tomorrow night
:58:32. > :58:42.# I'm going to live forever # I'm going to cross that river
:58:42. > :58:44.
:58:44. > :58:45.# I'm going to catch tomorrow night # I'm going to catch tomorrow night