:00:14. > :00:19.Tonight, an official enquiry has been announced into the sexual
:00:19. > :00:29.exploitation of children. We will hear a disturbing account from a
:00:29. > :00:35.former care home worker. I was absolutely as attended by this, that
:00:36. > :00:42.this was going on. Nobody seemed to think that it was shocking. It just
:00:42. > :00:44.seemed to be part of what went on in residential care, and that makes me
:00:44. > :00:50.very sad. Also tonight, is Stormont really
:00:50. > :00:55.facing meltdown? "Hey, you'll never guess who I've
:00:55. > :00:58.just seen." And he's best known as Corrie's Les Battersby - Bruce Jones
:00:58. > :01:34.will be here to tell his incredible story.
:01:34. > :01:40.Good evening. Tonight will be a very different Nolan Show. This evening
:01:40. > :01:43.we're looking at the sexual exploitation of children - that's
:01:43. > :01:49.young people being abused here in Northern Ireland. You will have
:01:49. > :01:52.heard in recent days a lot about children in care homes being
:01:52. > :01:55.targeted. But of course this is a problem not just unique to children
:01:55. > :02:00.in residential homes - it could happen to anyone. You are about to
:02:00. > :02:03.hear from a former care home worker. She says in the past she has seen
:02:03. > :02:16.men picking up children outside a home. The young people that leave
:02:16. > :02:24.the home, at any time of the day, but often in the evenings, without
:02:24. > :02:30.our permission, we would know where they had gone. We would try to find
:02:30. > :02:36.out where they had gone, and they might be missing then through part
:02:36. > :02:40.of that night and returned in the early hours of the morning. Or else,
:02:40. > :02:46.maybe for a number of days at a time. Sometimes we would have hidden
:02:46. > :02:51.so that we can get a number plates or try to find out whether they were
:02:51. > :02:59.getting into a vehicle and get the number plate or a description of the
:02:59. > :03:05.car that we can Passau. But always when I young person left without
:03:05. > :03:09.permission, or any incident happened, we would contact the
:03:09. > :03:13.police as a first port of call, to report the young people missing. And
:03:13. > :03:17.we did have initially quite a poor relationship with the police,
:03:17. > :03:20.because they found it difficult to understand why the young people
:03:20. > :03:22.could just leave and why we couldn't prevent them leaving. They would
:03:22. > :03:27.have always visited if we had a prevent them leaving. They would
:03:27. > :03:33.suspicion that they were at a particular address. They would
:03:33. > :03:36.always have acted on that. We would always have asked young people to
:03:36. > :03:40.protect themselves. Quite often what appeared to be happening was that
:03:40. > :03:47.they were being picked up by the same person or people. But the
:03:47. > :03:53.person would come and pick them up, provide them with alcohol and/or
:03:53. > :04:04.drugs, and then would expect one of the young people to repay that by
:04:04. > :04:07.engaging in a sexual act. We were aware that the same meal was coming
:04:07. > :04:12.engaging in a sexual act. We were and he was contacting other males to
:04:12. > :04:18.come. No one would agree to press charges about this man. I would say
:04:18. > :04:22.he knew that they were coming from a residential children's home. There
:04:22. > :04:25.were always at least three young people he would pick up and
:04:25. > :04:32.encourage them to recruit other young people to come out. Then he
:04:32. > :04:39.would return them to the home. That would maybe be two to three in the
:04:39. > :04:44.morning. It felt very hopeless because there were so little control
:04:44. > :04:53.for us as carers to what we could do, how we could stop this from
:04:53. > :05:02.happening. I was absolutely a standard -- is founded. It just
:05:02. > :05:10.seemed to be part of what went on in residential care, and that makes me
:05:10. > :05:14.very sad. I am sure it will make you very sad
:05:14. > :05:20.watching this at home as well. That was a lady who worked in the care
:05:20. > :05:22.home in the past, but I can tell you, I have been speaking to care
:05:22. > :05:28.home in the past, but I can tell workers who allege that this is
:05:28. > :05:33.still going on. But there are men who are deliberately trying to pick
:05:33. > :05:43.up children and young people outside care homes. How should we feel about
:05:43. > :05:53.up children and young people outside this as a community? It is not just
:05:53. > :06:00.that lady saying this. I think, for the lady in question, there was a
:06:00. > :06:02.sense of shock. I would share that shock and I think society should
:06:02. > :06:08.share that shock. I suppose the shock and I think society should
:06:08. > :06:12.issue is that there is a reality, to reiterate what you said earlier, I
:06:12. > :06:21.think it is an important point both in dealing with this matter
:06:21. > :06:27.particularly sensitively, but also to reiterate your point but this
:06:27. > :06:33.does not just apply to children within the looked after system. But
:06:33. > :06:40.you say you are shocked. Why are you shocked? I'm shocked because,
:06:40. > :06:45.ultimately, we all want to see our children cared for and looked after.
:06:45. > :06:52.Are you only learning about this recently? No, this has been an issue
:06:52. > :06:55.for some time. Child sexual explication is a form of child
:06:55. > :07:00.abuse. Child abuse has been around for generations. But specifically
:07:00. > :07:04.abuse. Child abuse has been around about a vulnerability around
:07:04. > :07:09.children in care homes. There are many decent care homes in this
:07:09. > :07:12.country, and many, many children being loved and looked after and
:07:12. > :07:16.country, and many, many children protected in care homes by fantastic
:07:16. > :07:21.stuff. That is not in dispute here. What is in dispute is how long some
:07:21. > :07:27.of the authorities have known this has been going on for. How long have
:07:27. > :07:34.you, sir, known that there is a vulnerability around adults trying
:07:34. > :07:41.to target, exploit, sexually exploit and prey on children from our care
:07:41. > :07:47.homes? As a social worker with 30 years' experience, and from my
:07:47. > :07:51.initial training, I would be aware of the potential for certain
:07:51. > :07:56.individuals to exploit children. How long have you known about this
:07:56. > :08:00.specific problem? I don't wish to talk about the current operation,
:08:00. > :08:03.but the current operation has been highlighted to us this year. But we
:08:03. > :08:09.have been aware that children, within the care system and wider,
:08:09. > :08:15.can be vulnerable to sexual exploitation. I want to show us all
:08:15. > :08:19.in Northern Ireland tonight, for example, back in 2009, maybe we can
:08:19. > :08:30.see this graphic on-screen now, what was actually said in 2009. Can we
:08:30. > :08:40.read together? Let's see it. This is a report from 2009.
:08:40. > :08:51.And then, approximately 90% of the children we see who are going
:08:51. > :08:56.missing on a regular basis are being sexually exploited in some way. 2009
:08:56. > :09:00.this was written. And now the Minister is announcing an enquiry?
:09:00. > :09:04.this was written. And now the The report was launched in 2011.
:09:04. > :09:11.this was written. And now the That is a 2009 report. That is a
:09:11. > :09:17.public report from 2009. Were you aware of it in 2009? We would have
:09:17. > :09:23.been part of the discussions. We worked very closely. What has
:09:23. > :09:32.happened in the last four years within? Quite a range of things have
:09:32. > :09:35.happened. And yet in 2011, let's have a look at what was said in
:09:35. > :10:08.2011. Another report. Let's get into that issue. There are
:10:08. > :10:19.so many officials who have been good enough to come here tonight. Staff
:10:19. > :10:23.saying that they were really concerned that they did not know how
:10:23. > :10:28.to stop young, vulnerable people leaving care homes. Have you heard
:10:28. > :10:34.about this? I have heard two parts of the story, I have worked with
:10:34. > :10:39.staff, our organisation goes into residential homes all the time. We
:10:39. > :10:44.have heard how they are managing children who are trying to leave
:10:44. > :10:50.home. How they are taking down number plates of cars. How they then
:10:50. > :10:56.go into communities and pass on the information. I have also heard, and
:10:56. > :10:59.quite distressed, by the fact that some staff are feeling like they are
:10:59. > :11:03.unable to act in the same way that some of those other units are. My
:11:03. > :11:07.question is, if we know that there is a really good practice out there,
:11:07. > :11:10.why are we not learning from that and bringing the other units and
:11:10. > :11:14.giving the support and guidance to residents and staff to make sure
:11:14. > :11:20.they know what to do at that point? Are you shocked? The type of abuse
:11:20. > :11:26.we have heard about and the public have heard about is shocking. Am I
:11:26. > :11:33.surprised? No, I am not. The chronology of how far this goes back
:11:33. > :11:36.is important. In 2006, there was a child protection inspection report
:11:36. > :11:41.that identify vulnerable children in care could be exploited. My
:11:41. > :11:46.colleague raised this issue in assembly in 2008. She sought to
:11:46. > :11:50.bring a private members bill, and that identified her concerns. What
:11:50. > :11:55.alarms me is that public health officials indicated to her this was
:11:55. > :11:59.not an issue. And that she was in danger of criminalising young
:11:59. > :12:03.people. There was an attitude that Tim -- that time but didn't
:12:03. > :12:13.recognise the concerns of young people. In October 2011 on the
:12:13. > :12:20.report, was anything done a month later? There were five
:12:20. > :12:26.recommendations that were made. All five of them are being implemented.
:12:26. > :12:30.We set up the safeguarding board. He is funding counselling services for
:12:30. > :12:37.children that have alcohol and drug abuse. And I have parents and care
:12:37. > :12:44.workers, yet, within the system, telling me there is utter confusion
:12:45. > :12:48.now, tonight. But there are 14 and 15 and younger children in care
:12:48. > :12:52.homes, and if they want to leave those care homes, and if the staff
:12:52. > :12:58.feel that that child is in danger, they still cannot stop them. And
:12:58. > :13:03.that concerns me. When you hear that the police in their investigation
:13:03. > :13:08.say that ten of these children collectively went missing over an 18
:13:08. > :13:15.month period, that should be raising alarm bells. They could have raised
:13:15. > :13:19.them a long time ago. That is correct. We need to ask those
:13:19. > :13:23.questions about why that happened and have lessons been learned from
:13:23. > :13:26.that? What we need to focus on are the systems that are operating
:13:26. > :13:34.today, are they best practice, or the robust, RV properly resort? Is
:13:34. > :13:39.that again remotely acceptable, when we think of those children who the
:13:39. > :13:45.that again remotely acceptable, when police suspect were abused? Some 22
:13:45. > :13:49.children went missing 437 times. In terms of a context, it's important
:13:49. > :13:56.to understand how complex this issue is. We have numbers of these
:13:56. > :14:00.children, we need to be clear about the sensitivity of some of this is
:14:00. > :14:04.handled -- of how some of this is handled. The issue of engaging with
:14:04. > :14:07.children within the looked after system is about establishing and
:14:07. > :14:12.forging a relationship about staff utilising the skills and trying to
:14:12. > :14:16.work with children. There are exceptional circumstances to go back
:14:16. > :14:22.to your earlier point. There are exceptional circumstances when a
:14:22. > :14:25.child is going to be an immediate risk and staff will be involved in
:14:25. > :14:34.physical restraint. But those are exceptional circumstances. Why are
:14:34. > :14:37.the exceptional? Because it is about trying to forge a relationship with
:14:37. > :14:40.the child. Remember what they may have experienced prior to coming
:14:40. > :14:47.into the care system. Physical maltreatment, prior to coming into
:14:47. > :14:50.care. For staff members to use physical restraint on those
:14:50. > :14:58.children, there is a different connotation. When can a staff member
:14:58. > :15:01.restrain a child? When it is felt there is imminent risk of the child
:15:01. > :15:06.being a danger to others or danger to themselves. Can you define
:15:07. > :15:12.imminent risk? This is at the heart of the story. If it were felt, and I
:15:12. > :15:15.do think things have moved on in terms of both guidance in terms of
:15:15. > :15:21.missing children, the relationship terms of both guidance in terms of
:15:21. > :15:26.with police. Particularly the relationship at a local level
:15:26. > :15:33.between police public protection units and the children's homes. All
:15:33. > :15:37.of that has improved. Tell a social worker or a care worker tonight,
:15:37. > :15:42.because I am hearing from them, and they are telling me they don't know,
:15:42. > :15:47.which is deeply worrying. Tell them tonight under what circumstances
:15:47. > :15:52.they can restrain a child. I have indicated. If it was considered, let
:15:52. > :15:59.me give you an example, a 14-year-old child. Who has gone
:15:59. > :16:02.missing many many times, and has a trend of going missing, wants to
:16:02. > :16:06.leave the home at 2am in the morning. Can they just walk out or
:16:06. > :16:13.is the staff allowed to restrain them? It would depend on the
:16:13. > :16:16.circumstances. There is a 14-year-old child wanting to leave
:16:16. > :16:21.that home at two o'clock in the morning and the staff have no idea
:16:21. > :16:24.where they are going. You would be looking for the staff to utilise
:16:24. > :16:27.their skills to engage and communicate with that young person.
:16:27. > :16:34.To put themselves in front of the young person, and daughters will be
:16:34. > :16:40.locked at night in children's homes. -- and doors will be locked. In
:16:40. > :16:46.circumstances where it is felt there are going to be significant risks.
:16:46. > :16:53.It depends where the child is going and what the risks are. Just say you
:16:53. > :17:00.don't know. It depends on the context. If you have a child, and by
:17:00. > :17:03.the way I understand how complex this is, I really do. There is a
:17:03. > :17:06.grey area here. We do not want to be this is, I really do. There is a
:17:07. > :17:13.locking children down. But at the this is, I really do. There is a
:17:13. > :17:18.heart of this story, if you do not know where 13, -year-old child is
:17:18. > :17:21.going, would you recommend now, send a public message out, if you don't
:17:22. > :17:27.know where that child is going, are you allowed to stop them? I would
:17:27. > :17:37.recommend staff trying to use all within their power to stop that
:17:37. > :17:42.child leaving the vicinity. That is not something staff can undertake.
:17:42. > :17:47.It is difficult to look at these things without a context, without
:17:47. > :17:51.being there. It is not possible for me to give a verdict to say in any
:17:51. > :17:55.situation where a 14-year-old is going to leave a care home,
:17:55. > :17:58.physically restrain them, because there are all kinds of connotations.
:17:58. > :18:04.If it is felt there is going to be there are all kinds of connotations.
:18:04. > :18:08.genuine risk, if there is adequate staff, if they feel they can
:18:08. > :18:12.physically restrain a young person in an appropriate manner with other
:18:12. > :18:19.young people within the facility not reacting to that, if the young
:18:19. > :18:26.people are saying they are only going a short distance. There needs
:18:26. > :18:32.to be a discussion within the system whether this imminent risk needs to
:18:32. > :18:41.be change. What has struck me when I was talking to some of your staff
:18:41. > :18:46.and the parents that if you think of the powers the police have, all the
:18:46. > :18:50.blues need is a reasonable suspicion that an offence has been caused to
:18:50. > :18:55.arrest someone. They don't need to be certain that someone is
:18:55. > :19:00.committing a crime. They need a reasonable suspicion. I wonder if we
:19:00. > :19:05.draw that as a parallel. The police can arrest someone with a reasonable
:19:05. > :19:09.suspicion. But in order to stop a 12-year-old child leaving a care
:19:09. > :19:16.home, there needs to be an imminent risk, so the threshold is up there.
:19:16. > :19:20.I think it is about the professional judgement, whether you have
:19:20. > :19:24.reasonable grounds there is an imminent risk. I think you have got
:19:24. > :19:30.to believe there is imminent risk. We need to put this in context.
:19:30. > :19:32.These children did not arrive one day in care, they have gone on a
:19:32. > :19:37.very difficult journey, some of them day in care, they have gone on a
:19:37. > :19:42.are going through foster care and the most convex cases are ending up
:19:42. > :19:44.in care. We need to stop looking back at this stage and look at what
:19:44. > :19:51.in care. We need to stop looking is important. We need to look at how
:19:51. > :19:56.can we enhance better, critical early intervention that takes the
:19:56. > :19:59.very young children who are not already indoctrinated and diverts
:19:59. > :20:08.them? How can we take a criminal justice approach? The predator is
:20:09. > :20:12.being isolated, named and shamed in public and treated as the child
:20:12. > :20:17.abusers they are. I believe if we put more effort into putting these
:20:17. > :20:22.young men on the Sex Offenders Register, you would have a mechanism
:20:22. > :20:24.for critical intervention. If I say you are on the register and you
:20:24. > :20:26.for critical intervention. If I say cannot engage with these children,
:20:26. > :20:30.for critical intervention. If I say and you then do, I can arrest you.
:20:30. > :20:35.for critical intervention. If I say Again, with some of the parents I
:20:35. > :20:39.have spoken to, backed by care workers, there are situations in
:20:39. > :20:43.Northern Ireland were some of these adults are standing on the bottom of
:20:43. > :20:47.driveways of these care homes. The care workers have seen these adults
:20:47. > :20:52.and the child was to leave the care home and the care worker is telling
:20:52. > :21:00.me they cannot stop the children. If they say they want to go, they are
:21:00. > :21:06.going. Children go missing every year from homes with parents and
:21:06. > :21:13.siblings in them. This is not something restricted to care homes.
:21:13. > :21:16.We should not, I think we need to be careful about stigmatising those
:21:16. > :21:20.people doing a very difficult job. They need better training, better
:21:20. > :21:27.support and there needs to be more clarity. Let's take that point and
:21:27. > :21:31.put it beyond care homes. There are quite a few children in Northern
:21:31. > :21:35.Ireland who are living in residential homes, they are leaving
:21:35. > :21:40.your home, they are being groomed by other people in society, and they
:21:40. > :21:46.are being abused. I have spoken to parents who are saying this
:21:46. > :21:50.situation in which the children but not listen to mum or dad, they are
:21:50. > :21:51.walking out in the middle of the night, and social services are
:21:51. > :21:55.walking out in the middle of the telling them that they cannot stop
:21:55. > :22:01.the child walking out of the door. That is what they say. Any parent
:22:01. > :22:04.advocating their responsibility on that basis needs to risk -- reflect
:22:04. > :22:17.advocating their responsibility on on their own position. We need to be
:22:17. > :22:21.demanding clarity. The only people that will be sitting back and
:22:21. > :22:25.benefiting from this debate will be the predators because they will be
:22:25. > :22:29.listening to every word and they will change what they are doing and
:22:29. > :22:33.how they are doing it and I think we need to be holding them to account,
:22:33. > :22:35.we need to see them in court, and real deterrent will not be when we
:22:35. > :22:38.we need to see them in court, and talk about holding people to account
:22:38. > :22:48.but when we use the Sex Offenders Register. Yes, sir, go ahead. It is
:22:48. > :22:57.paralysis by analysis for me. Where is the duty of care? We are in 2013
:22:57. > :23:05.and we are still talking about this still happening. We are just talking
:23:05. > :23:14.about what we are going to do. Where is the duty of care safeguarding
:23:14. > :23:21.policy that is in place? You mention an ad hoc approach as well, people
:23:21. > :23:26.are very clear of processes and procedures and all I am hearing is,
:23:26. > :23:30.we don't really know, it is a convex issue. I agree it is a complex issue
:23:30. > :23:35.but what is happening here and now to deal with this issue as opposed
:23:35. > :23:41.to the joining up the dots policy and going back over the past? Where
:23:41. > :23:49.is Terry Williams? URA retired social worker. What is your
:23:49. > :23:55.experience? 21 years, 18 of which was residential childcare. And this
:23:55. > :23:58.issue where there is a sense that it is clear what powers care staff have
:23:58. > :24:04.two stop a child leaving a home? Is is clear what powers care staff have
:24:04. > :24:11.that your experience? It is definition. It is one person's
:24:11. > :24:15.definition of a risk. But they residential member of staff has got
:24:15. > :24:20.to take that decision and take it in the light of the circumstances they
:24:20. > :24:28.are in. Is there confusion on the ground? There is because it is not
:24:28. > :24:32.clear. When you do your social work training, one of the things we were
:24:32. > :24:37.taught by a barrister was that if you lay your hands on a child, that
:24:37. > :24:41.is assault. Therefore, every residential social worker, they also
:24:41. > :24:48.have to think of the possibility that they could be reported for
:24:48. > :24:51.assault. Would it have been a regular occurrence that you did not
:24:51. > :24:58.want a child to leave a home and they were leaving anyway? It would
:24:59. > :25:04.be regular, yes. Do you think that is in the profession generally?
:25:04. > :25:10.Yes, I believe people genuinely don't know where they stand. They
:25:10. > :25:15.genuinely want to care for children, they do everything they
:25:15. > :25:21.can, they don't just turn their back, but with regard to restraint,
:25:21. > :25:26.I trained restraint, and to do a restraint correctly you need three
:25:26. > :25:31.members of staff. Three members of staff are not on duty at 2am in the
:25:31. > :25:34.morning. You could be criticised or taken to task for using a restraint
:25:34. > :25:40.which requires three people but there are only two. There has been
:25:40. > :25:45.another care worker telling me this no later than tonight that even if
:25:46. > :25:49.they do want to restrain a child, there are two competing rules. How
:25:49. > :25:52.have we got to this stage in Northern Ireland where you need
:25:52. > :25:57.three staff in a care home in order to do it as the policy suggests but
:25:57. > :26:06.there are only two staff on duty? How have we got to that stage?
:26:06. > :26:14.Absolutely. Let me speak to the chair of the storm on health
:26:14. > :26:18.committee. We are hearing tonight from former social care workers and
:26:18. > :26:23.from people who have spoken to me and from the film, there is
:26:23. > :26:27.confusion at the heart of this story as to when a parent can stop a child
:26:27. > :26:34.leaving a home when they feel they are at risk and from care homes. I
:26:35. > :26:40.think there is an issue about accountability in all of this. It is
:26:40. > :26:46.shocking, the levels of bone ability, and I think that is a real
:26:46. > :26:49.challenge for us collectively and for society. When we hear a lot of
:26:49. > :26:54.these children and young people don't actually realise that they are
:26:54. > :26:59.being abused. I would like to stress first and foremost that some of the
:26:59. > :27:01.commentators have said this is ultimately about safeguarding and
:27:01. > :27:05.protecting children and young people. However, we cannot lose
:27:05. > :27:11.protecting children and young sight of the fact that 18 out of 22
:27:11. > :27:18.of these young people left their care facilities over 400 times.
:27:18. > :27:22.There is a failing in the system. I have to say I welcome, albeit
:27:22. > :27:26.belatedly, the statement today in terms of the agreement that they're
:27:27. > :27:32.now should be an enquiry because I firmly believe that there needs to
:27:32. > :27:38.be, and the wider community and wider public need to get a sense of
:27:38. > :27:44.what failed here. What part of the system failed here and what can be
:27:44. > :27:47.done to hold that to account. Let's speak to the Children's
:27:47. > :27:53.Commissioner. What is your message tonight? My core priority is to
:27:53. > :27:57.Commissioner. What is your message ensure the safety of children and
:27:57. > :28:01.young people and I think we find it difficult when we start to talk
:28:01. > :28:06.about procedures instead of ensuring the protection of these children. I
:28:06. > :28:13.am shocked like others, I think there is feelings in the system, but
:28:13. > :28:16.hopefully the process that the minister talked about today will
:28:16. > :28:25.help them identify some of those gaps. We need clarity about what our
:28:25. > :28:29.care workers can do. But the ultimate aim is the protection of
:28:29. > :28:32.these young people who are very vulnerable, not just in our care
:28:32. > :28:37.homes but outside those care homes in our communities as well. Would
:28:37. > :28:41.you support children being physically restrained if there is a
:28:41. > :28:48.suspicion that they may come to harm, never mind immediate harm? I
:28:48. > :28:51.am very concerned that we continue to victimise the victim further. I
:28:51. > :28:53.am very concerned that we continue think we should put a lot of our
:28:53. > :28:56.energies into catching these think we should put a lot of our
:28:56. > :29:01.perpetrators and making sure these children are not put in any kind of
:29:01. > :29:06.danger. I think there is a need for clarity around how care workers can
:29:06. > :29:10.handle these situations and, as we have heard, they need to use the
:29:10. > :29:18.skills and experiences they have. Part of these enquiries will help
:29:18. > :29:25.clarify some of that. Can I ask one other question here. Tony Rogers,
:29:25. > :29:33.let me give you another situation I am aware of. There is a father who
:29:33. > :29:42.saw on social media that his child was receiving very graphic
:29:42. > :29:46.pornographic images from other young people who were encouraging that
:29:46. > :29:49.child to have sex and the child still wanted to leave the house in
:29:49. > :29:56.the middle of the night and indeed did. Is that, in your view, an
:29:56. > :30:04.immediate and imminent threat? Is that father allowed to restrain that
:30:04. > :30:07.child? I would be seeking to support parents in discharging their
:30:07. > :30:16.parental responsibility. Is that a yes? Yes, if that is what the parent
:30:16. > :30:20.felt was required. It is important to look at the implication, and that
:30:20. > :30:25.is perhaps what you want to get you in tins of clarifying the petition
:30:25. > :30:29.-- position. We don't want to get to a stage where we see it as the norm
:30:29. > :30:35.within children's homes where staff are retaining -- restraining
:30:35. > :30:40.children. It is not the norm, it is not seem to be happening very much.
:30:40. > :30:50.But if it was suggested that should move to the norm. What children have
:30:50. > :30:54.experienced prior to coming to that has got to be borne in mind as to
:30:55. > :30:59.how those children should be responded to. I have heard Jim and
:30:59. > :31:02.Patricia about the emphasis and focus being on those who pose a risk
:31:02. > :31:10.to those children and that is where I think we should be turning our
:31:10. > :31:15.attention. Roger Bailey, you are a clinical psychologist. What is your
:31:15. > :31:20.view? One of the issues to me which does not appear to be servicing
:31:20. > :31:25.right now is that the children, when they come into care, they have
:31:25. > :31:30.already been abused, they have already suffered emotional,
:31:30. > :31:35.psychological, deprivation, physical abuse. One of the key issues here is
:31:35. > :31:39.that that changes the way these children see the world, the way they
:31:39. > :31:43.interact with other people. The fundamental capacity to trust has
:31:43. > :31:48.been damaged. When we are talking about using our skills to stop them
:31:48. > :31:51.leaving, we are talking about a trusting relationship which means
:31:51. > :31:55.something we can use to stop them going through the door. The fact is,
:31:55. > :32:01.we know that is already profoundly damaged. The children often have a
:32:01. > :32:03.sense of worthlessness and hopelessness, they live for the
:32:03. > :32:07.moment, they often self-medicating hopelessness, they live for the
:32:07. > :32:13.with drugs, they go to parties, they get given drugs, they get abused and
:32:13. > :32:16.it becomes the norm. What we need to do is to think, how are we managing
:32:16. > :32:22.our treatment and our care of these kids to prevent them getting to this
:32:22. > :32:26.position? They have these very severe psychological disorders.
:32:26. > :32:35.Now, if you've been affected by any of the issues we've been discussing
:32:35. > :32:41.The minister has said that he has announced an enquiry today. Do you
:32:41. > :32:47.feel that there is a need for an immediate, as in this week,
:32:47. > :32:53.clarification, as to when a child can be stopped from putting
:32:53. > :33:01.themselves in danger? I think the question you pose, you are seeking a
:33:01. > :33:05.yes or no answer. The reality of the situation is that every situation
:33:05. > :33:11.does need to be taken in its own context. Let me give you a couple of
:33:11. > :33:15.examples. The very first thing, as everyone else has said, what we do
:33:16. > :33:20.not want to do is see a context where children themselves are
:33:20. > :33:23.further locked up. Where the relationships that children have are
:33:23. > :33:27.further damaged. But that does not mean to say that from time to time
:33:27. > :33:33.it is not appropriate for authorities to consider the use of
:33:33. > :33:37.secure care. But what we must not do is adopt the social policy that
:33:37. > :33:41.essentially says these children, because of their own vulnerability,
:33:41. > :33:45.we are going to further, in order to protect them, cause them more
:33:45. > :33:52.potential damage. What we must do... But this is where the gap is,
:33:52. > :33:56.because some of those children, all of those children are decent
:33:57. > :33:59.children, that's a given. A lot of those children are damaged through
:33:59. > :34:05.no fault of their own, but they are vulnerable if they are not in a home
:34:05. > :34:07.at night. That is what any decent parent would say. If a child is out
:34:07. > :34:12.at night. That is what any decent in the middle of the night, they are
:34:12. > :34:19.vulnerable. Correct, I believe that's right. And from what I hear,
:34:19. > :34:25.this is happening too often. I believe what this requires is a
:34:25. > :34:29.fundamental review of the system. To take into consideration how we can
:34:29. > :34:33.ensure, not only that children's homes, but parents in their own
:34:33. > :34:40.home, know what they can do. The reality of that situation, and I do
:34:40. > :34:46.agree when he says any parent has the right to try and restrain his or
:34:46. > :34:51.her child, and that includes a corporate payment -- corporate
:34:51. > :34:58.parent. But there is a context for actually doing that based upon a
:34:58. > :35:03.relationship. It is actually based upon the sense of trust. Thank you
:35:03. > :35:09.for that. I want to say thank you to all of you on the panel tonight.
:35:09. > :35:14.Please, and I want to take the time to say this evening, I said at the
:35:14. > :35:19.top and I'm repeating myself deliberately, there are fantastic
:35:19. > :35:20.care workers who do their very best. There are executives doing their
:35:20. > :35:25.very best. This is a complex issue, There are executives doing their
:35:25. > :35:28.that there is no doubt that in society we need to take this
:35:28. > :35:32.seriously, we need to help the police, help social services. We
:35:32. > :35:37.need to watch out for the perpetrators. If you have been
:35:37. > :35:40.affected by any of the issues there will be information about sources of
:35:40. > :35:46.support immediately after the programme. If our guests a road of
:35:46. > :35:58.applause. -- give our guests around of applause.
:35:58. > :36:01.Now, my next guest barely needs an introduction. For over ten years he
:36:01. > :36:04.played the main man in Coronation Street's "family from hell". Here's
:36:04. > :36:08.a reminder of one of the many scrapes his character got involved
:36:08. > :36:26.in. Oh yeah, that. I took that few at Doncaster, 1980 summit. Leave him
:36:26. > :36:44.alone! Boy, France's, leave it. He is not worth it. You all right,
:36:44. > :36:47.mate? Status Quo beat me up. But behind the mask of Les
:36:47. > :36:50.Battersby, he was battling alcoholism and depression. He has a
:36:50. > :37:04.remarkable story to tell. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Bruce
:37:04. > :37:12.Jones. Good to see you. I see we have the same tailor. What are you
:37:12. > :37:18.trying to say? We just look smart, the pair of us. What's it like when
:37:18. > :37:25.you walk out? Obviously you have got that fame and everybody knows you.
:37:25. > :37:28.Did many people recognise you? Yeah, Manchester Airport, everybody
:37:28. > :37:33.recognised me there. I must say, I love Belfast. It is great. The
:37:33. > :37:40.people of Belfast are absolutely fantastic. Let's see if you're
:37:40. > :37:46.saying that by the end of the show. I will be. They are pretty straight
:37:46. > :37:51.talking here. Many people, of course, will know about your
:37:51. > :37:56.appearances on Coronation Street, and as is often the case in life,
:37:56. > :38:06.many of us have back stories. You have got one hell of a story. I
:38:06. > :38:08.started out as a kid as an actor. I have been in every TV show going, I
:38:08. > :38:16.started out as a kid as an actor. I ended up in Coronation Street for 11
:38:16. > :38:21.years. I couldn't get out. I wanted to go in for six months because I
:38:21. > :38:25.promised my grandmother one day if I was an actor I would be in
:38:25. > :38:29.Coronation Street. My grandmother and I used to watch Coronation
:38:29. > :38:37.Street. I promised her I would be in it. She was from County Court. Every
:38:37. > :38:45.night I would watch it. And then I ended up in the thing. A lot of
:38:45. > :38:54.pressure. At first, when I got the job, I was doing it 20 47 with Bob
:38:54. > :39:01.Hoskins. Then I got the show to go to Granada. I had to be there at
:39:01. > :39:06.6:30pm on a Friday night. I had a rare weekend off to visit my wife
:39:06. > :39:13.and kids. But I got to Granada at have passed six and I said to the
:39:13. > :39:18.casting director, why am I here? I auditioned before I started the
:39:18. > :39:23.film, for a new series Granada were doing called The Chain Gang. I
:39:23. > :39:28.film, for a new series Granada were thought it was for that. And
:39:28. > :39:37.behind-the-scenes, you were battling with drink? Not then, never then.
:39:37. > :39:45.That came later. They wouldn't tell me what I was therefore. They took
:39:45. > :39:52.me to the hotel that was next door. I had a pint of Guinness with the
:39:52. > :39:56.producer, I said what I here for? Why am I here? I need to go and see
:39:56. > :40:01.my wife. He told me this story about this family. I said, where you could
:40:01. > :40:08.put this family, they sound horrible. And I've got there at have
:40:08. > :40:10.passed six, I was still there at half past ten, still not knowing
:40:10. > :40:16.what I was therefore. And this was half past ten, still not knowing
:40:16. > :40:20.the family from hell. There is so much of your story I need to get
:40:20. > :40:26.through in the next few minutes. It will shock people. For example, very
:40:26. > :40:29.serious trauma that you had as a child that went on to trouble you
:40:29. > :40:38.for the rest of your life. How could child that went on to trouble you
:40:38. > :40:46.it not? Obviously, as a young child and a young man on the River. Like
:40:47. > :40:54.every kid, wherever you live in the world, you run in a gang. In every
:40:54. > :40:56.gang there is a weakling. This child was the youngest of the mother and
:40:56. > :41:06.father who couldn't have any more children. We used to play a game on
:41:06. > :41:11.the River, a day game. At five o'clock, we have to be home. Your
:41:11. > :41:16.tea was there. If you weren't all you got a right crack off your mum
:41:16. > :41:21.and dad. You couldn't get away from it. He would not come home with us.
:41:21. > :41:27.He would not come home from that river with us. We left. At about
:41:27. > :41:32.nine o'clock the police knocked on the door, they did not know where he
:41:32. > :41:38.was. So we went out as kids and parents looking, and I turned around
:41:38. > :41:44.to my mum and said we left on the river. And my mum looked at me and
:41:44. > :41:49.said you didn't leave a river? I said yes. They found in dead. He ran
:41:49. > :41:56.away without us being there. And said yes. They found in dead. He ran
:41:56. > :42:04.they found him dead. Did you blame yourself? Yes, for a long time. I
:42:04. > :42:07.ended up in hospital for two years with rheumatic fever and I think
:42:07. > :42:14.that was me paying for what I did wrong, for leaving that kid. I went
:42:14. > :42:18.through a series of things as a child. I was two years in hospital
:42:18. > :42:27.with rheumatic fever. Lying on an isolation ward. There was me and the
:42:27. > :42:35.girl. They used to shut the curtains when they drove the trolley past.
:42:35. > :42:38.You're next. Your number eight, number nine is the girl. And one day
:42:38. > :42:44.they came in with a needle. They number nine is the girl. And one day
:42:44. > :42:48.said if this doesn't work it is curtains. My dad never came to see
:42:48. > :42:54.me. Or my grandfather. They thought curtains. My dad never came to see
:42:54. > :43:01.I was quick to die young, they gave up. That story of the child on the
:43:01. > :43:06.river, did that trouble you? And lead to you suffering from
:43:06. > :43:15.depression? Later on in life, it got worse. In my late 20s I lost my
:43:15. > :43:22.marriage, but I got married again. I have a great wife now. Finding the
:43:22. > :43:40.body of a victim of the Yorkshire Ripper? Yes. Oh, my God. I wheeled
:43:40. > :43:47.my wheelbarrow over six times, five times, and he was in the bushes. You
:43:47. > :43:48.suppress all of the stuff in the back of your mind. I never spoke
:43:48. > :43:53.about it. My first six months on back of your mind. I never spoke
:43:53. > :44:00.Coronation Street, we were hated. back of your mind. I never spoke
:44:00. > :44:04.The Daily Mirror put a big thing up, Bruce Jones has a dark secret. I
:44:04. > :44:08.remember getting in trouble with Coronation Street. You're supposed
:44:08. > :44:14.to tell them everything so you can protect yourself. I turned around
:44:14. > :44:17.and said why should I tell you? I don't want to know. You have seen
:44:17. > :44:24.and said why should I tell you? I the body. My wife didn't know about
:44:24. > :44:31.it until it came out. I don't want the nightmares again. Everything was
:44:31. > :44:39.going great, films, movies, houses whatever. Then it started to hurt.
:44:39. > :44:47.Why have I got... How can I say, honestly? How can you have a life
:44:47. > :44:51.like I grew up? The life of being a TV star, a film star, all this
:44:51. > :44:58.baggage in the back of your head, and deal with it? And it started to
:44:58. > :45:02.hurt me. Later on, not when I started out... When I got the
:45:02. > :45:09.success of where I was coming to an going... This led to serious
:45:09. > :45:14.depression? Depression, believe you me it's hard. Depression and drink
:45:14. > :45:16.depression? Depression, believe you go hand-in-hand. I never took
:45:16. > :45:23.drugs. I won't even take antidepressants. You were drinking
:45:23. > :45:32.heavily. Yes, to suppress what I was feeling. I get a sense of that pain,
:45:32. > :45:41.Bruce, when I hear about the story of how you were travelling along the
:45:41. > :45:49.road. This is an incredible story. I have had enough, it was time to go.
:45:49. > :45:55.What happened? I just finished work... I woke up that morning and I
:45:55. > :46:04.didn't want to get out of bed. I had had enough, it was time for me to
:46:04. > :46:10.go. My mum had died two years earlier, and I wanted to see my mum
:46:10. > :46:15.again. I remember getting in the car, I had been in the pub all day.
:46:15. > :46:26.I remember getting in the car and driving down the A55 and North
:46:26. > :46:37.Wales. I turned the car, and how I didn't kill... You tried to kill
:46:37. > :46:40.her, Bruce? Yes, I got in trouble for that. I was sent to a rehab
:46:40. > :46:45.unit. I would not talk about what for that. I was sent to a rehab
:46:45. > :46:50.was wrong with me. I can talk about it now and sometimes it will upset
:46:50. > :47:04.me. But then I couldn't. Now it is all out in the open. I co-wrote a
:47:04. > :47:08.play. Now it is how to beat it. How do you beat it? You talk about it.
:47:08. > :47:14.play. Now it is how to beat it. How At first when I went to rehab, I
:47:14. > :47:21.thought, what do you know about me? That is how I felt. I am talking to
:47:21. > :47:29.you now because it is all out in the open. I cried for a week, I poured
:47:29. > :47:35.it all out. My wife came to see me and my kids came to see me. I did
:47:35. > :47:44.not know I was ill. I did not know what was wrong with me. Are you
:47:44. > :47:52.better? I am fine now. I can have a pint with the best of them. You lost
:47:52. > :47:54.a lot of money. I am glad. I came from a council estate and I still
:47:54. > :48:06.a lot of money. I am glad. I came see friends there. Money is great,
:48:06. > :48:12.but it is not... I have got more values in life now. You know the
:48:12. > :48:18.amount of charity work I do. Are you happier now that the money has gone?
:48:18. > :48:25.Yes. But the money has come back now. I have just got two films. I am
:48:25. > :48:31.back now to where I was five years ago and I am so happy to be back
:48:31. > :48:39.doing the films, making people happy if I can. Hopefully I can. I have
:48:39. > :48:44.just done a new Christmas record. It is unbelievable. I am going to Los
:48:44. > :48:48.Angeles, I have got to movies to go to. I have got a great team around
:48:48. > :48:58.me now. My wife is part of that team. And
:48:58. > :49:00.me now. My wife is part of that screaming in my ear that we
:49:00. > :49:06.of time. But what a compelling story you have. Hang on to what you have
:49:06. > :49:11.said tonight, you are back, and I am glad there is a big smile on your
:49:11. > :49:21.face. Give Bruce a big round of applause.
:49:21. > :49:44.Well, it all kicked off on the Nolan radio show this morning. We've been
:49:44. > :49:46.hearing all these whispers about growing tensions between the DUP and
:49:46. > :49:52.hearing all these whispers about Sinn Fein. It was all laid bare on
:49:52. > :49:59.the show today. Gerry Kelly told me power-sharing is in crisis.
:49:59. > :50:07.Nobody should be surprised at what I said this morning. Is there a
:50:07. > :50:12.crisis? Of course there is a crisis. It is seen on the streets, we have
:50:12. > :50:20.had months of sectarian violence, organised. We have had the first
:50:20. > :50:25.minister missing. When there were issues around the dissidents, he was
:50:25. > :50:32.the first out. He is defending the way forward. He was not on his own.
:50:32. > :50:37.By the representatives of the DUP were keeping very quiet in that
:50:37. > :50:41.period. The DUP says, what crisis? Joining me to discuss this is the
:50:41. > :50:46.TUV's Jim Allister and Naomi Long from the Alliance Party. The DUP and
:50:46. > :50:55.Sinn Fein were invited to take part in the discussion, but guess what.
:50:55. > :51:02.They said no. Good to see you. Is power-sharing in crisis? I think the
:51:02. > :51:06.executive is in perpetual turmoil. There is no surprise about that
:51:06. > :51:10.because the system of government we have is incapable of working. If you
:51:10. > :51:13.don't have to be agreed about anything before you are in
:51:13. > :51:18.government, it is no surprise that when they are in government they
:51:18. > :51:23.can't agree about anything. That is the floor of monetary coalition. You
:51:23. > :51:31.have not agreed a programme of government, you are there as of
:51:31. > :51:35.right. But United, don't you? You preferred direct rule. You want to
:51:35. > :51:46.sit in the background and whinge about absolutely everything. Maybe I
:51:46. > :51:55.learned that from you! APPLAUSE
:51:55. > :52:00.. No party is big enough to form a government on its own. It is going
:52:00. > :52:05.to have to be a coalition. I want the parties to negotiate to see who
:52:05. > :52:11.can agree about what. Those who can agree about health, the economy, all
:52:11. > :52:14.those important things and who can command the requisite majority, they
:52:14. > :52:22.form the government whoever they are. Those who can't, they form the
:52:22. > :52:26.opposition. You see the fantasy politics, can we park it for a
:52:26. > :52:34.second? Would you rather have direct rule? I would rather have rule that
:52:34. > :52:41.worked. That is not and so the question. Is this audience getting
:52:41. > :52:46.is a risk from their government? I think not. Let's be very clear, what
:52:46. > :52:50.you are advocating is that the people of Northern Ireland should be
:52:50. > :52:54.the only part of the Western democratic world whereby all they
:52:54. > :52:58.are not around to change their government because they must have a
:52:58. > :53:01.monetary coalition, by law they are not even allowed to have an
:53:01. > :53:06.opposition. What sort of system is that? And he wants to bring it all
:53:06. > :53:12.down. You have a problem with the that? And he wants to bring it all
:53:12. > :53:17.leadership in the country. I think it is more congregated than that.
:53:17. > :53:19.For once, Jim and I are on common ground. I think a ball and
:53:19. > :53:23.recuperation would be better than ground. I think a ball and
:53:23. > :53:26.what we have at the moment. But I am a realist and I believe devolution
:53:26. > :53:31.is better than not having devolution. All I can say is, having
:53:31. > :53:34.is better than not having sat in Westminster and watched how
:53:34. > :53:38.the government there treats Northern Ireland, I would prefer to have
:53:38. > :53:42.devolution, but I would like to have it with politicians who Mitchell and
:53:42. > :53:47.show some leadership. There is a crisis. The crisis is not the
:53:47. > :53:51.pantomime that goes on between the crisis. The crisis is not the
:53:51. > :53:56.DUP and Sinn Fein, which they switch on and off like a tap. Where they
:53:56. > :54:01.have a president coming to Northern Ireland, they are best buddies. That
:54:01. > :54:07.is a pantomime. The real crisis is the effect it is having on the
:54:07. > :54:12.general public's confidence. 44% of people in a recent poll said they
:54:12. > :54:18.would not vote. If that is not a democratic crisis, I don't know what
:54:18. > :54:23.is. What a pity the DUP and Sinn Fein will not come into the studio
:54:23. > :54:27.and talk about this tonight. This is what Peter Robinson said earlier
:54:27. > :54:32.today. I have been involved in a number of
:54:32. > :54:36.crises over the years and our present circumstances don't have
:54:36. > :54:42.that feel about them at all. There are big problems and we have got to
:54:42. > :54:46.address those issues and it is important that we do. There are
:54:46. > :54:50.matters were Sinn Fein are disgruntled about issues, we are
:54:50. > :54:55.disgruntled about issues, but we have always talked about those
:54:55. > :54:59.matters. We have had conversations yesterday and today and we will
:54:59. > :55:04.continue to do that. How you describe something is one thing,
:55:04. > :55:06.what they actually are is another. One man's crisis is another man's
:55:06. > :55:17.what they actually are is another. problem to be solved. Go ahead.
:55:17. > :55:38.Where Sinn Fein and the DUP is concerned, these two parties...
:55:38. > :55:44.These two parties in election mode at the minute and not one of them is
:55:44. > :55:50.actually going to pull back and say that is not happening, we will give
:55:50. > :55:53.in. At the end of the day, we have a crisis, because what is happening is
:55:53. > :56:07.these politicians are not listening to the people. About what? About
:56:07. > :56:19.anything. The flags, the parades. I tell you it will happen next time.
:56:19. > :56:26.You never represent the people in east Belfast.
:56:26. > :56:37.That is not the case but you are entitled to your opinion. Let her
:56:38. > :56:40.finish. I am in the constituency consistently doing that work,
:56:40. > :56:47.including in places where people claim I never am. That is people's
:56:47. > :56:51.view, you are entitled to that, but the issue here is about democratic
:56:51. > :56:55.representation. If you don't like what I do, you have the right to
:56:55. > :57:04.vote for someone else. That is everybody's right, democratic right.
:57:04. > :57:09.I did say she will. But I am willing to come here tonight and put the
:57:09. > :57:14.case for devolution, and for leadership. We have at least shown
:57:14. > :57:19.leadership. We have taken decisions, we have followed them through, we
:57:19. > :57:23.have argued the cause for them. Other parties refused to take the
:57:23. > :57:30.argument or to listen to what people have in terms of their concerns.
:57:30. > :57:35.Chris Donnelly, is there a crisis? I don't think there is a crisis that
:57:35. > :57:40.is going to cause the downfall of the institutions in the short-term.
:57:40. > :57:44.I think Sinn Fein and the DUP realised that were to happen, they
:57:44. > :57:48.would be conceding authority to their political opponents on the
:57:48. > :57:53.outside and that is in neither of their interest. Having said that,
:57:53. > :57:56.the fact that even the facade of a workmanlike relationship has now
:57:56. > :58:00.been shattered doers indicate how bad things have become and allows us
:58:00. > :58:05.to reach a never of conclusions about the short-term period ahead.
:58:05. > :58:14.Firstly, it is likely to be characterised by elective discord.
:58:14. > :58:18.Secondly, the outside prospect of their even being a papering over the
:58:18. > :58:21.cracks deal has become even more remote. Thirdly, and most ominously
:58:21. > :58:24.in the short-term, the likelihood of remote. Thirdly, and most ominously
:58:24. > :58:31.intermittent violence through street protests is going to remain. Go
:58:32. > :58:34.ahead. I have got to disagree with you. I live in east Belfast and I
:58:34. > :58:39.have been to my own me personally you. I live in east Belfast and I
:58:39. > :58:43.and she has dealt with my issues. My main concern is I have six young
:58:43. > :58:49.children at integrated schools and this power-sharing is not worship --
:58:49. > :58:56.working. What is that showing them? I want everybody to live together.
:58:56. > :59:01.Go ahead. As a young politics student, I don't think there is a
:59:01. > :59:07.crisis at all. I think the comments made today were particularly
:59:07. > :59:10.opportunist. The fact we are talking about this on the show shows how
:59:10. > :59:16.quickly comments like that can be blown out of proportion. A senior
:59:16. > :59:21.member of champagne, one of the largest parties in Northern Ireland,
:59:21. > :59:22.repeating that there is a crisis in the power-sharing institutions --
:59:22. > :59:29.Sinn Fein? You think that is not a the power-sharing institutions --
:59:29. > :59:35.news story? I agree it is a news story, but I think it is completely
:59:35. > :59:38.irresponsible. He was not even able to qualify it with anything that
:59:39. > :59:44.seemed substantial to me and that is embarrassing.
:59:44. > :59:49.I think there is a subplot. Sinn Fein are trying to add the auntie.
:59:49. > :59:51.The nature of this process is that for Republicans, it is always
:59:51. > :59:55.The nature of this process is that required that the media needs to be
:59:55. > :59:59.fed with more and more concessions, and I think they are tapping the
:59:59. > :00:08.auntie to try and claw back. That is politics. This whole process, which
:00:08. > :00:12.never was a settlement, and every time it is in crisis, so-called, the
:00:12. > :00:15.unionist people are told, you need to make a few more concessions or we
:00:15. > :00:22.will lose the process. I am sorry, to make a few more concessions or we
:00:22. > :00:30.Unionists have no more to give. 20 seconds. Any objective observer
:00:30. > :00:32.would say Unionists when the war on this. We are still in the United
:00:33. > :00:36.would say Unionists when the war on Kingdom this evening. For you to say
:00:36. > :00:41.that is just building on people's fears and concerns. The talks are
:00:42. > :00:45.not going to start tonight because we are out of time. Good night
:00:45. > :00:48.everybody.