:00:15. > :00:19.Tonight, denied an abortion in Northern Ireland - the woman told
:00:19. > :00:30.her baby would be missing its brain and skull, and would not survive. I
:00:30. > :00:36.do not even want to go to a shop where I am seeing baby close. --
:00:36. > :00:42.clothes. People pushing their newborns. Because that should be me.
:00:42. > :00:45.That's Sarah's story. She wants the law changed here so that other women
:00:45. > :00:47.in her situation don't have to follow her path to London for an
:00:48. > :00:57.abortion. Also on tonight's show: A TV funny
:00:57. > :00:58.man with a dark side. Johnny Vegas will be live in the
:00:58. > :01:33.studio later. Hello there. You will have heard
:01:33. > :01:37.Sarah's story on the Nolan radio show this morning, and her plea for
:01:37. > :01:41.a change in the abortion law in Northern Ireland. Very few stories
:01:41. > :01:44.have ever had a greater impact. Until very recently, Sarah and her
:01:44. > :01:47.husband, Jason, were looking forward to the birth of their first baby.
:01:47. > :01:53.Then the young couple learned the heartbreaking news that their unborn
:01:53. > :01:59.child had anencephaly. Anencephaly is the absence of a major portion of
:01:59. > :02:01.the brain, skull, and scalp. In all likelihood, the baby would die
:02:01. > :02:09.before, during or shortly after birth. Devastated, Sarah decided an
:02:09. > :02:14.abortion was the only option. But the hospital told her that would be
:02:14. > :02:17.illegal in Northern Ireland. At the weekend, the family travelled to
:02:17. > :02:22.England for a termination, at their own expense, at a private clinic. I
:02:22. > :02:24.met Sarah just after she arrived in London. Some of you may find this
:02:24. > :02:32.film distressing. London. Some of you may find this
:02:32. > :02:37.With an image you may find disturbing. Every couple likes a
:02:37. > :02:41.weekend away. A trip to London is something many people save for. It
:02:41. > :02:48.is a journey Sarah never wanted to make. She had to come to England to
:02:48. > :02:58.have an abortion because under the law in Northern Ireland she would
:02:58. > :03:04.not be allowed one. It is a scary thought. It is. It is not something
:03:05. > :03:13.that I would have ever even dreamt of going through. This should be a
:03:13. > :03:16.procedure where I should be in the comfort of my own home. Leaving my
:03:16. > :03:23.own home to go to my hospital, where I know my consultant, to do my
:03:23. > :03:31.operation. And return home again. This is not the way this should be.
:03:31. > :03:35.When Sarah got married, she wanted to have children. But she has been
:03:35. > :03:41.told her unborn child has anencephaly. Babies with the
:03:41. > :03:45.condition are born without much of their skull and brain. In all
:03:45. > :03:54.likelihood, they will die before, during or shortly after birth. The
:03:54. > :03:59.baby that I am carrying has no life. There is no brain, there is no
:03:59. > :04:04.skull. What makes you an individual, is not there. This is just a body
:04:04. > :04:11.that can wriggle and move because my heartbeat makes this heart beat.
:04:11. > :04:14.That is just it. There is not a baby. It is not a baby. And the
:04:14. > :04:18.That is just it. There is not a pictures are horrendous. I'd rather
:04:18. > :04:30.have the memory of seeing it move on-screen and hearing a heartbeat.
:04:30. > :04:37.Than see the end. Are you OK? Yes. Yes. It is just hard. In Northern
:04:37. > :04:49.Ireland, contrary to what happens in England, the draft guidance states:
:04:49. > :04:56.Before I found out what this was, if you have have said to me, would I
:04:57. > :05:01.have thought of an abortion? I would have said no. No away. There are
:05:01. > :05:06.people who do this because they don't want a girl, they want a boy,
:05:06. > :05:16.because it is a one night stand. This is different. I have no choice.
:05:16. > :05:18.I am literally carrying a body. Unless you are at a suicidal stage
:05:18. > :05:28.they will not offer you a termination. This is destroying me.
:05:28. > :05:35.What do you mean? I do not want to go out and face people. It is just
:05:35. > :05:38.emotionally wrecking. This is not the way I should be. This is not who
:05:38. > :05:50.I am. What would you say to the the way I should be. This is not who
:05:50. > :05:54.Health Minister, Edwin Poots, Sarah? He needs to change his ways. He
:05:54. > :05:59.needs to seriously think about what women are going through. And it has
:05:59. > :06:05.an impact on the whole family. Sarah has travelled to London with her
:06:05. > :06:08.husband, Jason. He wants the Health Minister to change the law so other
:06:08. > :06:17.families do not face the same journey. Jason, what has been the
:06:17. > :06:21.toughest part on you? When you are having a new goal, the first thing
:06:21. > :06:26.you think is it is going to be daddy's Princess. To go from that to
:06:26. > :06:30.be told what it could be it was just soul destroying, devastating. I
:06:30. > :06:34.would hate to see anybody going through what we have had to go
:06:34. > :06:37.through. Have had to go through. Adil any confidence the Health
:06:37. > :06:42.Minister will listen to you? I would like to think he would. You do not
:06:42. > :06:46.understand the feeling until you are in this position. He cannot make
:06:46. > :06:51.those decisions sitting in his office. It has got to be the
:06:51. > :06:56.doctors, the consultants making these decisions. He is not the one
:06:56. > :06:58.who has to deal with it. Together, they head back to the hotel to try
:06:58. > :07:07.to get some sleep before the morning they head back to the hotel to try
:07:08. > :07:12.of the operation. It is now just 90 minutes or until
:07:12. > :07:20.Sara checks in for the termination. Here we are, the morning. How are
:07:20. > :07:38.you feeling? Very nervous. Very nervous. Did you sleep last night?
:07:38. > :07:43.No. This is not easy. Not easy. No. What was going through your mind
:07:43. > :07:47.last night, Sarah? Everything. Nothing in particular. I just could
:07:47. > :07:58.not sleep with the worry of today, just the not knowing. You just
:07:58. > :08:00.cannot put your mind at rest. As Sarah prepares to make way to the
:08:00. > :08:05.cannot put your mind at rest. clinic, she knows many people will
:08:05. > :08:09.object to what will happen here. She feels with her baby having virtually
:08:10. > :08:16.no chance of survival, coming here was the only option she had. What is
:08:16. > :08:31.the psychological impact of this on you? I can see it in your face, I
:08:31. > :08:38.can see it in your eyes. I'm halfway through my pregnancy. Most people
:08:38. > :08:41.would have baby stuff already brought into their house. I don't
:08:41. > :08:49.even want to go to a shop where I see baby clothes. Or people pushing
:08:50. > :08:58.their newborns. Because that should be me. And no matter what, at the
:08:58. > :09:01.end of this, it will not be me. As much as I wanted to be me with a
:09:01. > :09:12.normal baby, it is not going to happen.
:09:12. > :09:23.Shortly after that filming, about 90 minutes, two hours after that, Sarah
:09:23. > :09:30.had her abortion in London. And she returned back to Northern Ireland
:09:30. > :09:34.last night. Her mother, Jane, is in the studio. Hello, Jane. Thank you
:09:34. > :09:41.for coming in. First of all, how is she? She is OK. She is home. She is
:09:41. > :09:45.a bit of a shadow. She is picking up the pieces. It'll take a while. It
:09:45. > :09:49.is such a sensitive issue for you the pieces. It'll take a while. It
:09:49. > :09:53.and your family. You will understand there are very much two sides to
:09:53. > :09:57.this debate in Northern Ireland and we need to explore both sides. Why
:09:57. > :10:03.do you want the law changed on abortion in Northern Ireland?
:10:03. > :10:08.Medical grounds. It cannot go on the way it is going. I think they are
:10:09. > :10:14.tarring everybody with the one brush. Sarah's situation is that the
:10:14. > :10:19.baby just was not going to survive. And what we did was take the lesser
:10:19. > :10:26.of the two evils, if you like, the only options available. We would
:10:26. > :10:28.have had to put through horrendous birth. The birth, there was no way
:10:28. > :10:32.have had to put through horrendous she wanted to go through it, once
:10:32. > :10:38.she found out what was involved. The baby would not have come out easily
:10:38. > :10:39.because the part of the brain is not fair that activates along with the
:10:39. > :10:47.mother to come out. Because there is fair that activates along with the
:10:47. > :10:51.no skull. The school can apply pressure which helps during a
:10:51. > :10:58.pregnancy? And it would've been long. Long for her. What did the
:10:58. > :11:02.medical professionals say to you, who are caring for Sarah? I know you
:11:02. > :11:11.have so much praise for the medical staff in Northern Ireland. What did
:11:11. > :11:16.they say to her? Their hands were tied, they could not do anything.
:11:16. > :11:21.They were devastated for her because they understood, but unfortunately
:11:21. > :11:24.unless you are literally suicidal, and ready to see a psychiatrist,
:11:24. > :11:28.unless you are literally suicidal, they will not allow it to go ahead
:11:28. > :11:36.in Northern Ireland. And at that point, it is too late. There are
:11:36. > :11:42.other mental issues involved. The mother is having to deal with going
:11:42. > :11:49.into a shop and seeing baby clothes. Turning the corner, seeing a newborn
:11:49. > :11:54.baby. They break down. Breastmilk coming into play even though they do
:11:54. > :11:58.not have the baby. It is devastating that these mental needs are not
:11:58. > :12:03.being addressed and they are waiting until the woman is literally at this
:12:03. > :12:09.stage of suicide. It is the obstetrician that needs to be
:12:09. > :12:13.involved, not be psychiatrist. The reason you are talking about this is
:12:13. > :12:17.because the legislation says in Northern Ireland it is illegal to
:12:17. > :12:21.perform a termination of pregnancy unless it is necessary to preserve
:12:21. > :12:25.the life of the pregnant lady or there is a real and serious adverse
:12:25. > :12:33.affect on her physical or mental health which is either a long-term
:12:33. > :12:37.or permanent. Yes. That is the official guidelines. In England, if
:12:37. > :12:45.there is a serious abnormality like in this case, you can have an
:12:45. > :12:48.abortion, not here. Dr Roselle Ward from the Christian Medical
:12:48. > :12:52.Fellowship, this family are devastated and they wanted a choice
:12:52. > :12:59.for them and the lawmakers in Northern Ireland are intervening in
:12:59. > :13:04.their choice, are they not? I have to say, it is a truly heartbreaking
:13:04. > :13:10.scenario and I do not say it likely that my heart goes out to Sarah and
:13:10. > :13:16.her husband. It is not an easy situation, it is not an easy
:13:17. > :13:22.scenario. We have to look at the situation, we are dealing with two
:13:23. > :13:27.individuals and it is very difficult to get one law that Saul and you're
:13:27. > :13:31.talking... There is a push to change the law with regards to that. It is
:13:31. > :13:39.interesting to note that Parliament has looked at this with concern and
:13:39. > :13:43.they feel that the law as it stands is actually discriminatory. We are
:13:43. > :13:48.living in a society where we are all preoccupied with the quality, but
:13:48. > :13:52.they look at it as discriminatory against people with disability. The
:13:52. > :13:57.Parliamentary can produced a report saying it is outdated. This family
:13:57. > :14:05.are not asking for the abortion act to be brought here, what they are
:14:05. > :14:12.saying is that if there is no chance of a life beyond a few hours after
:14:12. > :14:15.birth... My daughter would not have considered this if there was no
:14:15. > :14:19.chance of a disability. The morning they were told and had it confirmed
:14:19. > :14:27.and were told that this, they thought in their own minds, we were
:14:27. > :14:30.sitting discussing about spinal operations, thinking at the back of
:14:30. > :14:37.their mind that they had an opportunity to bring this baby home.
:14:37. > :14:40.That was taken away from them. Can you help me understand why that
:14:40. > :14:48.family should not have the right to an abortion if the baby has no
:14:48. > :14:53.chance of life? The baby may have some chance of life, not in the
:14:53. > :14:59.long-term, you have to be realistic. There would be those of the opinion
:15:00. > :15:05.that the life is valuable and valued, however long or brief that
:15:05. > :15:11.may be. Are you off that opinion? Even if it did not have any brain
:15:11. > :15:14.function? I know of those who have been in it, it is dreadful, but
:15:14. > :15:21.there are those who have gone through it and carried the pregnancy
:15:21. > :15:27.to term... This is not an easy birth. The brain is open and there
:15:27. > :15:31.is no skull, no forceps can be birth. The brain is open and there
:15:31. > :15:38.attached to enable this baby to come down the birth canal, this is a
:15:38. > :15:46.first child and it was very much wanted. There are those who have
:15:46. > :15:50.gone through with it and actually found it helpful in the pain and the
:15:50. > :15:57.agony that they are going through. found it helpful in the pain and the
:15:57. > :16:03.Definitely not the right website, the amount of women who talked about
:16:03. > :16:10.the depression, the emptiness, seeing the baby when it was born and
:16:10. > :16:13.having to deal with a funeral... There are many who have found
:16:13. > :16:21.holding their baby for a few minutes or a few hours, it has been a help
:16:21. > :16:26.for them. It may work for some, but it does not work for all. When my
:16:26. > :16:30.daughter had that operation, she was sitting in a room with other people
:16:30. > :16:34.coming in to register for an abortion and they were laughing and
:16:34. > :16:39.carrying on and I am sitting looking at them breaking their hearts and
:16:39. > :16:42.everybody else, the majority of them sitting there for the one reason,
:16:42. > :16:51.just to get rid of the baby and I hated that. I am sure. They were
:16:51. > :16:55.there for a medical grounds, after the operation she was with women who
:16:55. > :16:58.were delighted that they had had an abortion and the problem had been
:16:58. > :17:06.solved and Sarah thought, I would have liked to have had my baby. The
:17:06. > :17:14.problem with the law is because of that which allows it in England. It
:17:14. > :17:22.has been so abused. They have admitted that. We could talk about
:17:22. > :17:28.that on another night. Here is the reality of the situation we are
:17:28. > :17:32.looking at night. There is a young lady who would not have contemplated
:17:33. > :17:39.an abortion if the child had been disabled in anyway and could have
:17:39. > :17:44.had any sense of a long life or life. That baby was either going to
:17:44. > :17:45.die before being delivered within hours of being delivered, would not
:17:46. > :17:51.have experienced very much at all, hours of being delivered, would not
:17:51. > :17:56.because the brain was not developed. Are you telling me that that mothers
:17:56. > :18:06.should still be forced deliver that dead baby? Force is not the right
:18:06. > :18:10.word to use. That baby had a life. If my daughter could not have
:18:10. > :18:16.afforded to go here, the only option available was to have that birth.
:18:16. > :18:22.Can you help me with the question? available was to have that birth.
:18:22. > :18:29.Are you saying that her daughter should have been forced to have a
:18:29. > :18:34.dead baby? I am saying that the law, and people are pushing for a change,
:18:34. > :18:38.but the law allows... People are saying we should narrow it down to
:18:38. > :18:43.allow certain categories, Parliament has said you cannot police that, it
:18:43. > :18:48.is discriminating, the law as it stands... How do you answer the
:18:48. > :18:55.problem that people under the law, children, babies with cleft palate,
:18:55. > :19:02.club feet, all of which are entirely surgically repairable, are being
:19:02. > :19:11.aborted? That is a huge leap from what we are talking about. There is
:19:11. > :19:20.a young lady at the end there. I agree with Dr Roselle Ward. I am
:19:20. > :19:24.100% against abortion. I do not think abortion should be allowed to
:19:24. > :19:35.happen anywhere. That is my own opinion. Let us hear from this lady.
:19:35. > :19:36.We need to get with the times. This is accepted in other parts of the
:19:36. > :19:47.We need to get with the times. This UK, so why not here? And there is a
:19:47. > :19:51.lady here at the ends will stop I wanted to say how incredibly brave
:19:51. > :19:58.everyone is. I am for change. It needs to change. I see where you're
:19:58. > :20:03.coming from, but this is something different to cleft palettes. It is a
:20:03. > :20:08.different topic. This is a lady who believes that her baby is not there
:20:08. > :20:12.any more and the doctors have said that her baby's brain does not
:20:12. > :20:21.function and surely we have a duty of care to her to make sure that she
:20:21. > :20:25.is OK. What would have happened with my daughter, every two weeks she
:20:25. > :20:29.would have been scanned to see the heartbeat was still there and then
:20:29. > :20:34.at some point if the heartbeat had gone. When she is out, people are
:20:34. > :20:43.meeting her, she is getting bigger, people are asking about the baby,
:20:43. > :20:45.and it is a horrendous situation. Let me speak to Brendan Hughes from
:20:45. > :21:00.the Royal College of Midwives. -- Let me speak to Brendan Hughes from
:21:00. > :21:06.Breedagh Hughes. Is this rare? It is not a common situation. My heart
:21:06. > :21:10.goes out to the couple. Myself in the course of my practice and my
:21:10. > :21:15.colleagues across Northern Ireland well at various times in their
:21:15. > :21:19.career have provided care and support in as compassionate way as
:21:19. > :21:22.possible to women in this situation. In some ways, the women that we have
:21:22. > :21:27.possible to women in this situation. cared for in Northern Ireland have
:21:27. > :21:31.been the lucky ones, because somehow their obstetrician has managed to
:21:31. > :21:36.find a way to provide the care and treatment that they need close to
:21:36. > :21:40.home and what has made this much more difficult for Sarah and Jason
:21:40. > :21:46.is the fact that they have had to leave home to go to London, to make
:21:46. > :21:50.very critical decisions in a short time frame, to travel with not the
:21:50. > :21:56.support of parent our family, although I hear that Sarah's mother
:21:56. > :22:00.has been fantastic. These guidelines are clear. Foetal abnormality is not
:22:00. > :22:04.recognised as grounds for termination in Northern Ireland.
:22:04. > :22:12.This is Ed Boon -- Edwin Poots is department. The law is not keeping
:22:12. > :22:16.pace with modern technology which can tell women unequivocally at 20
:22:16. > :22:20.weeks into the pregnancy that there is something terribly wrong with
:22:20. > :22:26.their baby which means that the baby cannot survive. Anencephaly is one
:22:26. > :22:32.such disorder, there are other disorders as well. In terms of the
:22:32. > :22:36.guidelines, these are issued by the Department of Health, currently in
:22:36. > :22:42.draft form and the Royal College of Midwives said in July that the tone
:22:42. > :22:45.and language use throughout the document is intimidating and
:22:45. > :22:50.threatening for women and health care professionals, why do they say
:22:50. > :22:54.that? If anyone has read the latest draft guidance that they would agree
:22:54. > :22:57.with that statement. Although it is supposed to be guidance for
:22:57. > :23:02.professionals, it has been written from a very legalistic prospective,
:23:02. > :23:08.it is very heavy on the penalties if an abortion is carried out at that
:23:08. > :23:14.does not meet the strict criteria. It talks about life imprisonment. It
:23:14. > :23:20.talks about imprisonment, ten years, life imprisonment. The very
:23:20. > :23:24.tone of that guidance will impart a chill factor. People will be
:23:24. > :23:29.frightened, health care professionals will be frightened. It
:23:29. > :23:34.is not unknown to have health care professionals reported to the police
:23:34. > :23:40.for example for having participated in abortions. I cannot understand
:23:40. > :23:44.when you were telling me in England, I could not understand why
:23:44. > :23:48.you were saying that the medical professionals here in Northern
:23:48. > :23:53.Ireland seem to be on your side, but were frightened of getting involved
:23:53. > :23:58.in this abortion issue. Listen to the guidance. The question of
:23:58. > :24:03.whether it would be lawful in Northern Ireland to advocate or
:24:03. > :24:07.promote to a pregnant woman in Northern Ireland the termination of
:24:07. > :24:11.pregnancy outside of Northern Ireland, where that termination of
:24:11. > :24:15.pregnancy would be lawful in the place that would be carried out, but
:24:15. > :24:19.would not be lawful in Northern Ireland, has never been considered
:24:19. > :24:24.by the courts. This guidance says that this is a grey area in which
:24:24. > :24:29.pending clarification by the courts, the lawfulness of such
:24:29. > :24:35.conduct would have to be regarded as uncertain. Is that clear guidance?
:24:35. > :24:40.Would that scary you as a medical professional? You might be
:24:40. > :24:46.committing a criminal offence, it is not certain, it is a grey area! Is
:24:46. > :24:48.there not a role, I do not know, I am not having a go, I am asking a
:24:48. > :24:53.there not a role, I do not know, I question, is there a role here for
:24:53. > :24:54.the director of public is the Northern Ireland to provide some
:24:54. > :25:00.the director of public is the type of guidance? Is it likely that
:25:00. > :25:05.a medical professional would be prosecuted? Is that a question for
:25:05. > :25:09.the Attorney-General? For referring someone to across the water, should
:25:09. > :25:13.there be clearer guidance from the lawmakers in this country as to
:25:13. > :25:19.whether someone is going to go to jail? Do we say it is a grey area
:25:19. > :25:23.and put all the pressure on the medical professionals? Is that they
:25:23. > :25:29.are? That is one of the reasons why we have been calling for guidance.
:25:29. > :25:33.In 2004, the then Health Minister was instructed by the Court of
:25:33. > :25:38.Appeal to issue guidance to medical professionals working in this area
:25:38. > :25:43.and ten years down the line almost we still have no guidance. The draft
:25:43. > :25:47.guidance that you have referred to was issued for consultation in March
:25:47. > :25:52.of this year. The consultation closed in July and we have heard
:25:52. > :25:59.absolutely nothing from the Department of Health about how they
:25:59. > :26:04.plan to introduce this guidance. Bernie Smith is with us this evening
:26:04. > :26:12.from an anti-abortion campaign group. Pro-life group, Stephen,
:26:12. > :26:20.thank you. Why don't you set out your view? I think the law is very
:26:21. > :26:26.clear. The medical profession deal with it very well. It is a crime, it
:26:26. > :26:27.is a criminal offence. Women will not be denied medical care and have
:26:27. > :26:33.never been denied medical care. We not be denied medical care and have
:26:33. > :26:37.have the lowest maternal birth rate in all women. Mother and child are
:26:37. > :26:41.treated as patients. Sadly, yes, we have great sympathy for this
:26:41. > :26:47.situation that Sarah had to endure. But very clearly she outlined
:26:47. > :26:50.herself, her life was not in danger. We need to improve, we need to
:26:50. > :27:00.forward better care for that mother through that pregnancy, better
:27:00. > :27:05.help, better care for the child in the womb. Is part of that care
:27:05. > :27:11.forcing that mother, forcing Sarah, to have a baby she does not want to
:27:11. > :27:16.deliver? Part of the care is to take the mother and the baby through the
:27:16. > :27:20.pregnancy, to support both the mother and the child. I would be
:27:20. > :27:26.supplied if that care was not provided through this pregnancy.
:27:26. > :27:30.Sorry, stop. It is very important that you do not speculate. The
:27:30. > :27:34.concrete evidence that we have from that you do not speculate. The
:27:34. > :27:44.the family is that they could not have got better care. 100%. I am
:27:44. > :27:49.glad to hear that. Let's deal with the issue. If there is a baby which
:27:49. > :27:54.is not going to have brain function, which is not going to survive beyond
:27:54. > :28:00.a couple of hours after birth, if it doesn't die before birth, are you
:28:00. > :28:06.saying that lady should be forced to deliver that baby? I am saying that
:28:06. > :28:13.baby -- that lady should be supported through that pregnancy. Is
:28:13. > :28:19.that yes? That the same care is given to that mother. I believe that
:28:19. > :28:23.support should have been advanced more in this case. I do not believe
:28:23. > :28:29.that aborting a baby ever is the right thing to do for any mother in
:28:29. > :28:33.any situation. I think it is better for the mother. Evidence has shown
:28:33. > :28:37.that women who abort their babies because of terminal illnesses, have
:28:37. > :28:50.long-term, serious post traumatic disorder. Saw your view is that it
:28:50. > :28:55.should be imposed on this family? Definitely not. Not the horrendous
:28:56. > :29:02.birth that was facing my daughter. Definitely not. It is not the care
:29:02. > :29:04.of the patients are at the baby. It is delivery and having to go through
:29:04. > :29:10.of the patients are at the baby. It a long horrendous birth, a very
:29:10. > :29:16.painful birth. Birth where the baby has difficulty, literally in getting
:29:16. > :29:21.out. There is nothing to grab onto in the school. Having to face what
:29:21. > :29:24.actually comes out, Sarah was devastated. She said she would
:29:24. > :29:26.rather remember the baby in here than appear as a mental image of
:29:26. > :29:33.what I have delivered. I can than appear as a mental image of
:29:33. > :29:38.understand that. No, you can't understand that you would not be
:29:38. > :29:42.sitting here arguing with me. Quite truthfully, how your case got on
:29:42. > :29:55.outside the family planning clinic, don't even get me started on that.
:29:55. > :30:00.Hold on. Let's actually... What you are referring to there, and let's be
:30:00. > :30:05.clear to be fair to you Bernie, we do not know which group was involved
:30:05. > :30:09.in this. Let's make that clear. However, we do know what Sarah is
:30:09. > :30:14.telling us happened to her. Let's However, we do know what Sarah is
:30:14. > :30:18.hear what he said. Listen to this. I was told if I wanted a medical
:30:18. > :30:21.termination I had to go to a family planning place. I went there. I had
:30:21. > :30:28.termination I had to go to a family to come out and face the abuse.
:30:28. > :30:35.Protestors. They said that I did not know what I was doing. They were
:30:35. > :30:39.shouting at my mother that she did not know what she was putting her
:30:39. > :30:44.daughter through, that she was killing life. They do not know my
:30:45. > :30:48.circumstances. From minute we came out of the glass doors to the minute
:30:48. > :30:53.we got into our car, they followed us. They were nearly in the with
:30:53. > :31:00.us, with their banners. It was horrendous.
:31:00. > :31:06.Bernie Smith, whoever was involved in that, I gave you on teen
:31:06. > :31:09.opportunities on the radio this morning to condemn any protest that
:31:09. > :31:15.would scream into the face of a pregnant lady, and you refused to
:31:15. > :31:22.condemn it this morning. Do you want to condemn it now? I do not know any
:31:22. > :31:31.protest or counsellor which showed in anybody's face. I obviously was
:31:31. > :31:36.not there that day. As a pro-life campaigner, I oppose all violence, I
:31:37. > :31:42.oppose all harassment. I am in favour of helping and supporting. I
:31:42. > :31:43.can only imagine, from listening to Sarah's story, that whoever was
:31:43. > :31:49.reaching out to her that day was Sarah's story, that whoever was
:31:49. > :31:55.reaching out with love and support. Screening in her face? I have no
:31:55. > :32:01.idea who would be screaming in anybody's face. Would you condemn
:32:01. > :32:12.it? Have you the evidence apart from the evidence that you heard tonight?
:32:12. > :32:16.A woman was so much in my face, if there was an identity parade, I
:32:16. > :32:24.could pick out for you. Talk to your people. It is inappropriate for this
:32:24. > :32:29.to happen. I was going to turn around to them and say, you do not
:32:29. > :32:32.know my daughter's circumstances, this is a medical condition and it
:32:32. > :32:37.has taken a lot for us to come down here. Do you know what the problem
:32:37. > :32:42.is? When you go to the building, you go through a door and there is a set
:32:42. > :32:46.of buttons. You press the family planning button and you are
:32:46. > :32:50.boasting. That immediately alert these guys that you are going to
:32:51. > :32:59.family planning. When you come out, it is nothing but abuse. Doing what?
:32:59. > :33:03.Just shouting. Do you realise what you are doing to your daughter? She
:33:03. > :33:08.will remember this for the rest of her life. Shouting abuse into the
:33:08. > :33:13.car. Do not do this to your baby. There are other options. I thought,
:33:13. > :33:22.would you please go away? I want this day to be over. I would not see
:33:22. > :33:23.that as abuse. I would hate to see what your after-care is if you do
:33:24. > :33:33.that as abuse. I would hate to see not see that as abuse. I would not
:33:33. > :33:41.be darkening your doorstep. I was not there. None of us watching that
:33:41. > :33:46.tonight needed to be there. You have had a scenario explained to you.
:33:46. > :33:49.This is very important because you do represent some people who
:33:49. > :33:54.protest. We do not know if these people were aligned to your group
:33:54. > :33:57.are not. It was a very genuine and important question. You have just
:33:57. > :34:05.said you support that kind of behaviour. I am opposed to all
:34:05. > :34:09.violence. Hold on a minute. Let me put the point to you. You would
:34:09. > :34:15.consider what has been described to you tonight as reaching out not
:34:16. > :34:18.abuse? Absolutely. That does not say I was in favour. I'm opposed to all
:34:18. > :34:22.violence, all harassment, but I I was in favour. I'm opposed to all
:34:22. > :34:26.would be in favour of reaching out to any mother in crisis with love
:34:26. > :34:30.and support. Whoever did what they did to this lady's daughter, that
:34:30. > :34:40.was fair and it was reaching out, was it? I do not agree with any form
:34:40. > :34:44.of violence. What was described there, as you stated clearly, there
:34:44. > :34:49.is another way. There is help available. That is exactly what you
:34:49. > :34:58.said. If that was offered, I would see that as a very loving option.
:34:58. > :35:03.Somebody was forcing their opinions on me when we were in a fragile
:35:03. > :35:06.state. Constantly going at them. I don't think that is a good way of
:35:07. > :35:17.going about things. I really don't. I am sorry. As a mother, I don't see
:35:17. > :35:24.how that is useful. There is a young man in the shirt. This lady here
:35:24. > :35:29.mentioned that the mother's health was not in jeopardy from the
:35:29. > :35:32.pregnancy. It would appear to me this draft legislation does not take
:35:32. > :35:42.into account the impact of mental problems. It is not draft
:35:42. > :35:47.legislation, it is draft guidelines. It says there needs to be a
:35:47. > :35:50.long-term or a permanent serious adverse effect on mental or physical
:35:51. > :35:58.health. It needs to be long-term or permanent. Well, they need to get on
:35:58. > :36:08.with it then. They are waiting around too long. A grey area for the
:36:08. > :36:17.medical staff. Why macro -- Y? Why a grey area? The Attorney General, why
:36:17. > :36:20.a grey area? This fellow here. I just think it sounds like your
:36:20. > :36:26.daughter's doctors seem to have a better idea of what is best for your
:36:26. > :36:29.daughter's doctors seem to have a daughter than some of the people
:36:29. > :36:41.here tonight with their old terrier motives. -- old terrier motives. We
:36:41. > :36:45.need to keep our focus here. Life is precious. And the matter how brave,
:36:45. > :36:52.need to keep our focus here. Life is no matter how long,
:36:52. > :36:54.need to keep our focus here. Life is problem this morning and another
:36:54. > :37:02.young man rang in who had been advised by the medical profession.
:37:02. > :37:06.This gentle man was told that their baby would survive an hour. The baby
:37:07. > :37:15.survived ten and a half years. There are two individuals here. Let me
:37:15. > :37:18.finish. He also said it was a very selfish decision and if he had to
:37:18. > :37:23.make it over again, he would not go down the same road. The prognosis is
:37:23. > :37:27.not always accurate. Many people make decisions on abortion based on
:37:27. > :37:30.not always accurate. Many people inaccurate diagnosis. Many babies
:37:30. > :37:38.have been aborted because they have been told something is wrong. And
:37:38. > :37:48.many a normal baby has been aborted. I am a medical student myself. One
:37:48. > :37:55.of the main things we are taught is that we should do no harm. Do no
:37:55. > :38:01.harm? How can you tell me that aborting a child is not harmful? It
:38:01. > :38:09.would be viable for a certain time. Families have found tremendous help.
:38:09. > :38:20.It should be up to the family to decide. Hard cases make bad law is.
:38:20. > :38:23.You cannot make laws on one case. The Parliamentary and looked into
:38:23. > :38:27.this, took evidence. The majority of the women from whom it took evidence
:38:27. > :38:33.were women who had been through similar scenarios. They were in
:38:34. > :38:37.support. We need to support the women and the baby. I know that many
:38:37. > :38:42.of you will be having this discussion now. Let me just remind
:38:42. > :39:08.you how you can get in touch with the programme. There is the Twitter
:39:08. > :39:12.address. We will continue this discussion on Twitter tonight right
:39:12. > :39:17.into the early hours. We will pick it up again on the radio show in the
:39:17. > :39:26.morning. Goretti Horgan is joining us. The lower itself, sorry, the
:39:26. > :39:32.draft guidelines themselves, talk about grey areas. In Northern
:39:32. > :39:38.Ireland we have fatal abnormality. No matter what the circumstances,
:39:38. > :39:42.the matter what the life expectancy, feet or abnormality cannot ever be
:39:42. > :39:48.considered as an issue for abortion. Is that right? It is absolutely not
:39:49. > :39:55.right. I think it is worth saying to Sarah and Jason and her mother, that
:39:55. > :39:57.the overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland, in survey after
:39:57. > :40:03.survey, have said very clearly that in Northern Ireland, in survey after
:40:03. > :40:08.three out of four of them say that it is not always wrong to have an
:40:08. > :40:12.abortion if it is going to be a severe disability. And certainly in
:40:12. > :40:17.a case where there is no chance of a feed is actually becoming a living
:40:17. > :40:22.baby, there is no doubt about it but the vast majority of people would
:40:22. > :40:26.say that Sarah should have been able to have had her abortion in Northern
:40:26. > :40:30.Ireland with the love and support of her family. I am not sure. Most of
:40:30. > :40:35.the political parties in Northern her family. I am not sure. Most of
:40:35. > :40:37.Ireland are anti-abortion. Yes, but they don't get elected on the basis
:40:37. > :40:42.that they are anti-abortion. They they don't get elected on the basis
:40:42. > :40:44.get elected on the orange and green issues and then they tell us that
:40:44. > :40:48.because they are anti-abortion, the issues and then they tell us that
:40:48. > :40:52.rest of us must be. If you look at the social attitude surveys, the
:40:52. > :40:55.opinion polls, the public are far ahead of the politicians. The public
:40:55. > :41:00.are very clear that, for example, if your woman is pregnant as a result
:41:00. > :41:03.of rape, she should be able to have an abortion. That if a woman is
:41:03. > :41:07.facing the kind of dreadful situation that Sarah was, she should
:41:07. > :41:13.be able to have an abortion. And quite a large, almost majority, say
:41:13. > :41:17.that actually a woman should be able to have an abortion until 12 weeks
:41:17. > :41:36.pretty much at the request of the woman. These pro-life is, it is none
:41:36. > :41:42.of your business what this girl doors. It is her choice and I do not
:41:42. > :41:48.see why issue -- you should interfere. You see the woman who
:41:48. > :41:51.screamed into Sarah's face. If it had have been me or one of my
:41:51. > :42:04.daughters, I would have decked her! had have been me or one of my
:42:04. > :42:09.There is no where a I can do anything other than to completely
:42:09. > :42:17.tell you you should not have decked her! Bernie Smyth. Do you want to
:42:17. > :42:27.reply? I do not think that would be very loving. It would not be
:42:27. > :42:36.reaching heights, would it? -- reaching out. This whole argument
:42:36. > :42:40.revolves around to people and we must love those two people, the
:42:40. > :42:44.mother and the baby and we must always provide loving means to care
:42:44. > :42:48.for them both and that is what our movement is about. On Twitter
:42:48. > :42:56.for them both and that is what our tonight, I am looking at the
:42:56. > :42:59.messages and texts and e-mails, one person is asking about the physical
:42:59. > :43:04.pain of the child in the womb. Another tweet says what a brave
:43:04. > :43:16.mother and daughter who have gone public to share this traumatic
:43:16. > :43:22.ordeal. Another phone call. Hello. Let us use common sense. The law is
:43:22. > :43:26.the law and in most cases, it does work, but there are certain
:43:26. > :43:37.circumstances where common-sense has to prevail. There are people here
:43:37. > :43:41.who are bringing a child into the world. This child will not survive,
:43:41. > :43:46.there are huge psychological effects for the parents and the wider family
:43:47. > :43:54.and I think it is totally wrong that we have got pro-life people on here
:43:54. > :43:58.saying that we should bring this child into the world. Common-sense
:43:58. > :44:10.should prevail and should be medical intervention. Thank you. Within
:44:10. > :44:13.hours of this broadcasting on the radio this morning, the Justice
:44:13. > :44:17.Minister issued a statement in which he said there is no overall appetite
:44:17. > :44:21.in the Assembly for substantial change to the law, nor is he
:44:21. > :44:24.advocating it, but here is what he said which will be interesting.
:44:24. > :44:31.David Ford said the question is said which will be interesting.
:44:31. > :44:36.whether we have drawn the line in exactly the right place. It is not
:44:36. > :44:40.about bringing the abortion act to Northern Ireland, but there would be
:44:40. > :44:45.value in having a journey wine and since he and honest debate about a
:44:45. > :44:49.small number of difficult cases which may not always be covered by
:44:49. > :44:55.the current law. That is the Justice Minister issuing that statement
:44:55. > :45:00.because you have gone public. Here is a guy in the very centre. I think
:45:00. > :45:03.it is important to take the is a guy in the very centre. I think
:45:03. > :45:07.individual interests of women into account. The health Department
:45:07. > :45:11.should take a more pragmatic approach to each and every case and
:45:11. > :45:16.evidently tonight we have seen an exceptional case and I hope Edwin
:45:16. > :45:23.Poots does take notice. I'd am supportive of Jane Christie and her
:45:23. > :45:28.daughter. I would like to say that my sympathy goes out to the lady and
:45:28. > :45:32.her daughter and the grandchild, but I can also give you cases of people
:45:32. > :45:40.who have been told they should have an abortion twice, decided not to,
:45:40. > :45:42.by the very same reason, because there are parts of the baby that
:45:42. > :45:46.were missing, and the child is in there are parts of the baby that
:45:46. > :45:53.the living room, walking around and there is nothing wrong with it. On
:45:54. > :45:59.the same subject, Precious Life has that name because it protects all
:45:59. > :46:07.life, and when people are standing outside an abortion clinic, what
:46:07. > :46:12.happens is this, a counsellor talks and held a person they have another
:46:12. > :46:17.option. If someone wants to say that shouting, they only have a small
:46:17. > :46:21.period of time to say something. It is a protest, they pray and ask God
:46:22. > :46:29.to help them. Jane Christie what would you do next? Hopefully the
:46:29. > :46:35.Minister will see us, talk to us and we will have some input into what we
:46:35. > :46:40.are looking for, and at the end of the day... Edwin Poots has said he
:46:40. > :46:47.is prepared to meet you and your family. Ladies and gentlemen, we
:46:47. > :46:52.will continue the debate online and on social media. I will continue it
:46:52. > :47:05.right after the show. Please give our guests round of applause. -- a
:47:05. > :47:09.round of applause. Before we move on, here's a quick reminder of how
:47:09. > :47:13.you at home can interact with the show. You can call us 08459 555678.
:47:13. > :47:16.Calls cost up to 5p/min from most landlines, an additional connection
:47:16. > :47:18.fee may also apply. Calls from mobiles may cost considerably more.
:47:18. > :47:22.Tweet us @stephennolan, our hashtag #BBCNolan. Or you can text us 81771
:47:22. > :47:27.texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Now my next
:47:27. > :47:30.texts will be charged at your guest used to work in Argos, sold
:47:30. > :47:33.door-to-door insurance, studied art and pulled pints for a living before
:47:33. > :47:35.turning to stand-up comedy. Describing himself as an
:47:35. > :47:37."enthusiastic drinker", his personality has merged with that of
:47:37. > :47:40.his beer-swilling, scruffy, belligerent stage character. Ladies
:47:40. > :48:00.and gentlemen, please welcome Johnny Vegas. Is it time to go home. Ladies
:48:00. > :48:19.and gentlemen, please welcome Johnny Vegas! Thank you for coming. A
:48:19. > :48:24.pleasure to be here. I bumped into him. He will not remember this. I
:48:24. > :48:27.was starstruck about ten months ago and I was getting onto a plane in
:48:27. > :48:34.London and he was in front of me. I tapped him on the shoulder. Did you
:48:34. > :48:39.tapped me on the shoulder and asked me to take a bygone for you. I said
:48:39. > :48:45.that I presented a television show in Northern Ireland and would you
:48:45. > :48:55.come onto it. I did. Your age still said no! Right, so you brought me on
:48:55. > :49:00.here to prove I wouldn't come on? You said you had a television show
:49:00. > :49:07.the way people say I am building a rocket! Let us go to the moon! You
:49:07. > :49:11.tapped me on the plane, early morning, hungover, there was a whiff
:49:11. > :49:18.tapped me on the plane, early of something few! There was not!
:49:18. > :49:26.There was a smell of something of him. It might have been a strong
:49:26. > :49:32.aftershave. At times like that, people say that, you say is it
:49:32. > :49:39.aftershave. At times like that, broadcast from an attic! You know
:49:39. > :49:46.that agents have that. The wife lives in Dublin and I live in
:49:46. > :49:54.Ireland half my life now. It is not the case of not wanting to go to
:49:54. > :49:57.Ireland. Traditionally, we will have more fun on here than a home -- bin
:49:57. > :50:03.Ireland. Traditionally, we will have programme back at home. They all ask
:50:03. > :50:12.you why you're not in the Priory! Why aren't you in the Priory!
:50:12. > :50:15.Because over here I am a character. I was reading all about you and my
:50:15. > :50:18.perception, Johnny Vegas, and then I was reading all about you and my
:50:18. > :50:21.you say Johnny Vegas is not really I was reading all about you and my
:50:21. > :50:29.you, you have escaped the character. I have not escaped him.
:50:29. > :50:35.Not completely in that way. The thing with the book was how he came
:50:35. > :50:43.about. I bought into the idea that I had created him, put the flares on,
:50:43. > :50:56.had the perm, the best permit ever that I got in Belfast. Actually, a
:50:56. > :51:03.few years on, I have a son, a wife, Johnny Vegas did take over. He was a
:51:03. > :51:09.coping mechanism before he became a stand-up. You had become the
:51:09. > :51:13.character in real life, hadn't you? There was this guy who was out of
:51:13. > :51:19.control and drinking and messing up and you had become that hell-raiser
:51:19. > :51:24.in real life? I did, yeah, because at one point he refused to go back
:51:24. > :51:33.in the box and he was like, it is more fun being Johnny than it is
:51:33. > :51:39.being Michael. So, you go back in the box and I will be Johnny. I saw
:51:39. > :51:41.you at a festival a few years ago, it was heaven. You would not know it
:51:41. > :51:47.now. He took his shirt off at the it was heaven. You would not know it
:51:47. > :51:52.end of the night and got people to throw coins at him. You were mad.
:51:52. > :52:00.You were out of control. At what point did you realise it? I'm not a
:52:00. > :52:02.recovering alcoholic. I have this thing in stand-up that when you are
:52:02. > :52:05.recovering alcoholic. I have this doing well, it is the only job were
:52:05. > :52:11.people do not create an intervention, because when it is
:52:11. > :52:16.going well, people love you, and folk to live precariously through
:52:16. > :52:21.you. Everybody wants to have a drink with Johnny, everyone wants a night
:52:21. > :52:25.out, but then you want to go home and raise your family. Imagine if
:52:25. > :52:29.Johnny came home with you and then set fire to your kitchen! Then he
:52:29. > :52:35.said I would like to live here for the next few years. It is the idea
:52:35. > :52:45.of living with this, being this thing. It was an evil. It was a
:52:45. > :52:52.really good stand-up, it was part of me, but not part of me. You needed a
:52:52. > :52:58.drink to go on stage. I could not become Johnny without a drink. I am
:52:58. > :53:04.very shy. Oh, get away! You have seen me at airports. They turn away
:53:04. > :53:10.and think everyone is mad who wants to talk to me. I used to buy into
:53:10. > :53:17.this. When actors go, I am quite shy, I thought more why choose a job
:53:18. > :53:21.like this. I didn't, it was an alter ego that shows it and it came about
:53:21. > :53:27.because of different things I was not aware of. I am fascinated with
:53:27. > :53:32.people in the public eye, and who the real person is. It fascinates
:53:32. > :53:40.me. I heard about you that you with this big character, but you were
:53:40. > :53:45.insecure. Is that true? I do not like confrontation. It's only has a
:53:45. > :53:52.go... I don't like it myself. You like confrontation. It's only has a
:53:52. > :54:01.will often shy away. You are a gentle soul. I wouldn't say gentle.
:54:01. > :54:07.Jesus, I shout at Angela Lansbury. I always guess the killer. In the
:54:07. > :54:19.first five minutes. I have called her a slot. She flirts why she is
:54:19. > :54:25.solving crimes. -- Wyler. At what point, was that your child, at what
:54:25. > :54:31.point did you say I am growing up? What a life defining moment? This
:54:31. > :54:36.point did you say I am growing up? guy who had lived in my head came
:54:36. > :54:41.along, got a drink, got hold of a microphone and its staff with comedy
:54:41. > :54:46.but I am really proud of. He did not want to run with the pack, he did
:54:46. > :54:50.not worry about what critics said, he loved comedy for what it was and
:54:50. > :54:55.what it could be, going out and playing to a proud and giving the
:54:55. > :55:00.crowd, giving comedy back to the crowd. Forget alternative comedy, .
:55:00. > :55:07.There were people who redefined comedy. They then said you're not
:55:07. > :55:13.allowed to do this or that. It was like band cabaret. Johnny went, who
:55:13. > :55:17.made you boss of comedy? I would go out of my way to do everything that
:55:17. > :55:25.annoys other comics, but do something that works. And it
:55:25. > :55:30.worked. It was beautiful. There is a point where you go, when you are
:55:30. > :55:37.Johnny and you are at Christmas lunch, and you are flicking brussels
:55:37. > :55:39.sprouts at your dad and the family is unimpressed. When you are in a
:55:39. > :55:45.and E for the ninth time, it ceases is unimpressed. When you are in a
:55:45. > :55:53.to be entertaining. I have a story and I will not tell you who it is,
:55:54. > :55:59.to be entertaining. I have a story was quite a well-known person who is
:55:59. > :56:04.telling me a story in which he was talking about Jeremy Kyle and he
:56:04. > :56:07.said he was actually out for dinner with Jeremy Kyle and he was actually
:56:07. > :56:11.out for dinner with Jeremy Kyle Addy sediment real life, look into my
:56:11. > :56:17.eyes and he had become the character that he is on television in real
:56:17. > :56:23.life. I missed Jeremy Kyle by nine minutes in a late-night boozer. I
:56:23. > :56:28.wanted to put my hand round his throat and then run the lie
:56:28. > :56:38.detector. Tell me how much I like you! Tell me! Talk about somebody,
:56:38. > :56:44.that is human emotional slavery. Johnny would have strong him up. I
:56:44. > :56:51.keep pushing you to the real-life, what is it like being a dad? It is
:56:51. > :56:57.brilliant. It has been such a fascinating debate tonight. For me
:56:57. > :57:01.as a dad, he saved me in a lot of ways. He made me remember what was
:57:01. > :57:06.good about being Michael and what I wanted to give to my son. What a
:57:06. > :57:11.lovely thing to do, first time you mention your real name when it is
:57:11. > :57:18.talking about something you really care for, your son, not your job?
:57:18. > :57:28.Why do you say he saved you? My son was born and I remembered everything
:57:28. > :57:33.that was good about my childhood before... What your life becomes,
:57:33. > :57:41.you go, I loved my dad, I love my mum and dad, I love everything that
:57:41. > :57:46.they encourage me today. I had religion, but I had saved, I was
:57:46. > :57:50.allowed to question it, I was allowed to question every element of
:57:50. > :57:54.my life and was a person who was a hero and it was my dad and I was
:57:54. > :58:02.going, child deserves somebody who does not have to be perfect, but
:58:02. > :58:07.your son has to know that you are his dad, you do not belong to the
:58:07. > :58:15.public, you belong to him. Your job is your job, first and foremost,
:58:15. > :58:19.getting up for school and making butties and doing the school run and
:58:19. > :58:23.walking up the hill, when he goes wide we always talk about spies were
:58:23. > :58:28.me go to traffic lights, I have got an obsession, makes me really happy
:58:28. > :58:34.and he does not believe in spies. Happier than being on TV? No, but I
:58:34. > :58:43.go on television because I have to pay bills. I wish I had so much time
:58:43. > :58:47.few. I do not have any more time. Ladies and gentlemen, we are out
:58:47. > :58:56.tonight and to end the show we will give it Johnny Vegas are around of
:58:56. > :58:59.applause. Good night. -- gave Johnny Vegas are around of applause.