:00:00. > :00:24.Thank you. Good evening, how are you doing
:00:25. > :00:29.tonight? It's the first show of 2014 and we
:00:30. > :00:32.hope we have a big TV year like we did last year. Here's what we've got
:00:33. > :00:36.for you tonight. Has Ian Paisley made himself a laughing stock? Is he
:00:37. > :00:41.right to feel betrayed by his party and his church? Or is this just a
:00:42. > :00:48.bitter old man? The man that they put in my position could not keep
:00:49. > :00:51.his own seat. Dressing up kids as beauty queens.
:00:52. > :00:54.US-style child beauty pageants are heading our way. Should Ulster say
:00:55. > :00:55.no? The human tragedy behind joyriding.
:00:56. > :01:28.A son is forced to speak out. Ian Paisley bares his teeth, turning
:01:29. > :01:31.on Peter Robinson. Who would have ever thought we'd
:01:32. > :01:39.have seen so much blood on the carpet, between two of our biggest
:01:40. > :01:46.politicians? The man that they put in my position couldn't keep his own
:01:47. > :01:50.seat. He couldn't keep his own seat in Westminster, and my son who
:01:51. > :01:59.followed me had a marvellous victory. And for once, we are seeing
:02:00. > :02:08.the two nature of the beast, that there was a beast here who was
:02:09. > :02:12.prepared to go forward, to the destruction of the party, because
:02:13. > :02:17.losing seats in Northern Ireland is a very serious thing. And for East
:02:18. > :02:27.Belfast, not to be a Unionist seat, in the House of Commons, is a
:02:28. > :02:31.terrible blow. Jim Allister is in the studio with me, and joining us
:02:32. > :02:37.from Wales is former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Peter
:02:38. > :02:41.Hain. You have popped that Peter Robinson, you quite enjoy it, you
:02:42. > :02:46.have got to feel sorry for him when he says that, he so many hours
:02:47. > :02:52.worked with for decades, do you feel sorry for the first Minister? My
:02:53. > :02:56.overall impression is that it was pretty unedifying for everyone, both
:02:57. > :02:59.those making the allegations and for the DUP in respect of which they
:03:00. > :03:06.were made. I think that we do have to give some account for the fact
:03:07. > :03:13.that the contributors were both people advanced in years, but having
:03:14. > :03:17.said that, they chose to take part and therefore, they have to stand
:03:18. > :03:24.over what they said. When Ian Paisley called Peter Robinson, the
:03:25. > :03:31.First Minister this country, the beast, is that a step too far? I was
:03:32. > :03:38.shocked at the language. Is it too far? I think it is. Ian Paisley has
:03:39. > :03:44.also been given to colourful and extravagant language, but I do think
:03:45. > :03:58.that there were things said in that programme that would've been left
:03:59. > :04:02.unsaid. Why, Jim? I think that they distorted the message that Ian
:04:03. > :04:08.Paisley was trying to give. I think he is quite better. I can understand
:04:09. > :04:11.that, he had perfected the selling of the deal to the faithful, job
:04:12. > :04:15.that nobody else could do in the DUP, and on the done that, his
:04:16. > :04:19.wagons were circled and he was ushered out because he had served
:04:20. > :04:24.his bus. Obviously, over the years, that has festered in him and very
:04:25. > :04:28.much embittered him. On the other hand, it is very unrealistic to
:04:29. > :04:32.think that when somebody is in their 80s, there should be no thought of
:04:33. > :04:35.them retiring. I think it is quite clear that when the weekend first
:04:36. > :04:39.Minister, once he had done the deal which nobody else could do, once he
:04:40. > :04:43.had soldered, which nobody else in the DUP could do, certainly you to
:04:44. > :04:49.Robinson couldn't do it, then at that stage, yet served his purpose
:04:50. > :04:51.and he was becoming a bit of an embarrassment with a chuckle Brother
:04:52. > :04:54.routine and thundering through some of the officers and the jobs etc,
:04:55. > :05:03.and I think that they decided, the party came first, they decided pot
:05:04. > :05:16.he had to go. If they did push out, were they right to push out? Were
:05:17. > :05:24.they right to push out if they did? My own judgement is, that he should
:05:25. > :05:27.have gone years before, because for many of the latter years, he was not
:05:28. > :05:33.performing as he ought to have performed, but he was retained, I
:05:34. > :05:37.suppose, out of deference to his long years of service and latterly,
:05:38. > :05:42.out of a wrecking vision I Peter Robinson and others that it going to
:05:43. > :05:46.do the St Andrews deal, they needed him to sell it. But if you ask me if
:05:47. > :05:51.he was up to the job, no, should he have gone in his prime? Yes. And I
:05:52. > :05:58.think you made the mistake that many politicians make. Do you think there
:05:59. > :06:03.is a level below which abuse should not go? You think Ian Paisley went
:06:04. > :06:08.too far, even if he did have that animosity, even if you don't have
:06:09. > :06:12.that venom? Or is it all gloves off? Well, politics is a messy business,
:06:13. > :06:19.but I do think when you have four years, carefully constructed this
:06:20. > :06:23.myth that the DUP is one big happy family, it is all the more shocking
:06:24. > :06:27.when you discover that the truth is quite different and the animosity is
:06:28. > :06:34.as deep as it paid on the ends, and I would have thought was
:06:35. > :06:37.irredeemable as it is. Some people are just as shocked about what
:06:38. > :06:45.Baroness Paisley herself said, she made it a wrecked attack against the
:06:46. > :06:49.family. Ian's name was cleared by the authorities in Stormont,
:06:50. > :06:52.everything was proved to be force and there was no sleeve, you never
:06:53. > :06:55.brought any sleaze, his wife didn't do anything wrong, he didn't do
:06:56. > :06:59.anything wrong, there was nothing morally wrong with his character or
:07:00. > :07:08.his life. We know eventually grow this sleaze did come from? It came
:07:09. > :07:11.from the home of the man who was no leader himself, Peter Robinson, it
:07:12. > :07:20.is his family, not from the Paisley family. Many people I have spoken to
:07:21. > :07:24.felt sorry for Peter Robinson, a very personal tragedy for the first
:07:25. > :07:28.Minister, and here you have the man's wife who he worked with for
:07:29. > :07:36.many decades being that up. -- tragedy for the First Minister. That
:07:37. > :07:39.was a low blow, I think. One does have to understand that it is
:07:40. > :07:46.possibly part of the tapestry of the animosity that had been there for
:07:47. > :07:50.some years, that instead of saying to her husband in his advancing
:07:51. > :07:56.years, Mrs Paisley said, do yourself what you deserve, in terms of
:07:57. > :08:02.retiring at a point you can enjoy the rest of your life, instead of
:08:03. > :08:05.doing that, she seemed to be one of those inciting him to continue, with
:08:06. > :08:12.no appreciation that there had to come and end at some point. Of
:08:13. > :08:16.course, he liked and he had lived First Minister, and the air and the
:08:17. > :08:22.ego that its stroke was very important to them, but I think she
:08:23. > :08:32.should have recognised his frailties and his lack of capacity. -- the
:08:33. > :08:36.ego. It strokes. She was talking about the man she had perceived to
:08:37. > :08:39.be plotting and designing to get rid of her husband and that was a
:08:40. > :08:46.cardinal sin, in terms of those things. We can work together at home
:08:47. > :08:51.whether you think this was another dig at the first Minister. I am a
:08:52. > :09:06.very happy man. My wife still lives with me and some of the! -- and
:09:07. > :09:14.loves me! It doesn't take much interpretation, that one. For those
:09:15. > :09:22.of you laughing, I do not think that you would be laughing if you were in
:09:23. > :09:33.that situation, is that fair? Peter Hain is also joining us this
:09:34. > :09:42.evening. Good evening to you. Is this an Ian Paisley you recognise? I
:09:43. > :09:47.have not seen the film, the interviews, I can get snippets of
:09:48. > :09:53.it, but to me, this isn't really the point. The point is, he was the big
:09:54. > :09:59.man of Northern Ireland unionism, indeed, probably of Northern Ireland
:10:00. > :10:06.politics across the divide. And I got to know him quite well. We
:10:07. > :10:11.worked very closely together. Nobody else, whatever Jim Allister says,
:10:12. > :10:14.nobody else could have, from the Unionist side, could have delivered
:10:15. > :10:21.Northern Ireland from the clutches of its hideous past into a new
:10:22. > :10:27.future. It wasn't a perfect future, it was never going to be, but he was
:10:28. > :10:34.the one who did it. You helped him to get into power, do you think he
:10:35. > :10:43.was pushed out? He said to me, about six months before the final
:10:44. > :10:46.settlement of March 2007, and the devolution of May 2007, he said to
:10:47. > :10:51.me, round about six months before, I cannot remember when, but when I was
:10:52. > :10:56.asking him about the way that he saw his own future, and he had not yet
:10:57. > :11:00.made up his mind whether he was going to do the deal, because he was
:11:01. > :11:05.not sure if Sinn Fein would sign up to policing and the rule of law,
:11:06. > :11:09.which was always his bottom line is that point, for understandable
:11:10. > :11:14.reasons. But he hadn't really decided. Would I asked him, because
:11:15. > :11:21.we tended to talk on to one, privately, how he saw things going?
:11:22. > :11:25.He said, I see my role as delivering peace, get Northern Ireland into a
:11:26. > :11:28.safe place, I think that is my destiny at that moment in the
:11:29. > :11:34.history of our people. And then I will govern for a period and then I
:11:35. > :11:38.will step down. I do not think he ever saw himself as going a
:11:39. > :11:45.full-term, whether or not the circumstances of his departure...
:11:46. > :11:48.Whether this was of his choosing, it obviously was not, but I do not
:11:49. > :11:54.think he saw himself as going on and on ever. He did say publicly that he
:11:55. > :12:06.would serve for the full four years if he was in office. All I can tell
:12:07. > :12:13.you is what he said to me. If I may say so this kind of conversation, I
:12:14. > :12:18.do not criticise you at all for it and I do not have an opinion on a
:12:19. > :12:23.documentary that I have not seen. But you cannot take away from the
:12:24. > :12:29.historical achievement of Ian Paisley. To come from the militant
:12:30. > :12:34.opposition to almost any progress, to the person who helped to rescue
:12:35. > :12:39.the people of Northern Ireland from where they had been and formed
:12:40. > :12:47.through negotiation and tough negotiation, with Peter Robinson at
:12:48. > :12:50.his side doing a very rational job, actually got with Martin McGuinness
:12:51. > :12:57.and Gerry Adams to the point which we reached. Which was an enormous
:12:58. > :13:04.achievement. Peter Robinson was also a big player, you would acknowledge
:13:05. > :13:08.that. Do you feel sorry for the First Minister of this country being
:13:09. > :13:15.called the beast by the man you are defending tonight? I have a lot of
:13:16. > :13:21.admiration for Peter Robinson as well. That is not the question. Do
:13:22. > :13:27.you feel sorry for Peter Robinson when he is called the beast? I am
:13:28. > :13:33.not going to get involved in giving an opinion on that. Both Ian Paisley
:13:34. > :13:41.and at his side, providing a crucial, professional, detailed --
:13:42. > :13:46.Ian Paisley was not the man for detail, a detailed insight and
:13:47. > :13:50.instinct on the way things could go forward. Peter Robinson was an
:13:51. > :13:56.absolutely crucial part of the process that got us to where we did.
:13:57. > :14:02.It could not have been delivered without Ian Paisley. They needed
:14:03. > :14:06.each other. Whatever the chemistry ended up being. I was aware of
:14:07. > :14:12.tensions. At one point towards the end Peter Robinson was concerned
:14:13. > :14:19.that Ian Paisley was going too fast, having gone to slowly for the
:14:20. > :14:24.two years previously. Let alone the decades previously. Peter and some
:14:25. > :14:28.of the others like Jeffrey Donaldson, the people who were
:14:29. > :14:37.making progress, were concerned that in a sense Ian Paisley had let over
:14:38. > :14:47.them. -- laps. But this is part of politics. At the time of St Andrews
:14:48. > :14:53.and indeed Leeds Castle, Ian Paisley I fear would have signed up to an
:14:54. > :14:57.even worse deal than he did sign up to. I think there were some
:14:58. > :15:01.restraints on him which came from others. I think at St Andrews he was
:15:02. > :15:08.very anxious to do the deal and the public anxious to meet the 24th of
:15:09. > :15:17.November deadline in 2006. It was the party that restrained him from
:15:18. > :15:26.doing this. With all due respect, I was at St Andrews. So was I. I was
:15:27. > :15:31.involved in the detailed negotiations with the Prime Minister
:15:32. > :15:37.as well. I know what happened. Ian Paisley did not actually come to St
:15:38. > :15:45.Andrews intending to sign a deal. It was a very close thing that we got
:15:46. > :15:53.to where we did. And he was not in any sense a front runner then. It is
:15:54. > :15:58.important to get the history right. What about the audience. I think Ian
:15:59. > :16:06.Paisley is just trying to improve his legacy at the expense of Peter
:16:07. > :16:13.Robinson in this case. He has mellowed out politically. But he is
:16:14. > :16:27.putting the blame on Peter Robinson. Whose side are you on? None of them.
:16:28. > :16:31.John is on the line. Go ahead. I believe Mr Paisley, I have followed
:16:32. > :16:37.him from when I was a child and I believe every word that he utters. I
:16:38. > :16:41.believe that he was pushed from both church and party but I do not agree
:16:42. > :16:48.with the comments he made against Peter Robinson, calling him the
:16:49. > :17:05.beast. I think that was a biblical quote. Dr Paisley, I have never
:17:06. > :17:12.heard him tell a lie. And I disagree that Baroness Paisley went a bit far
:17:13. > :17:25.as well. Do you think it has damaged his reputation? Not with me. I am a
:17:26. > :17:33.supporter of Ian Paisley through and through. It has made him look bad in
:17:34. > :17:41.a way but then again he is an old man. It is hard to see him the way
:17:42. > :17:52.he has gone downhill. You could see it in Westminster and instalment. At
:17:53. > :18:03.First Minister's question. He seemed to be struggling. If you want to get
:18:04. > :18:16.in touch, details on the screen right now. We can ask a Belfast
:18:17. > :18:23.community worker, what does he think? I think it was a mistake. It
:18:24. > :18:28.opened up a lot of old saw is affecting him and the DUP. I think
:18:29. > :18:34.his judgement in doing the programme probably was not very good. I have
:18:35. > :18:40.been a supporter of Ian Paisley from the age of 17. I remember the
:18:41. > :18:47.opening of that church. I remember listening to him on the back of
:18:48. > :18:51.lorries, following his every word up until a certain stage in my life. I
:18:52. > :18:58.got disillusioned in later years when he disowned those people he had
:18:59. > :19:07.worked with in the loyalist days. He had three phases in his life. Taking
:19:08. > :19:14.away their religious side. His first days were about getting people to
:19:15. > :19:19.listen to him and no surrender and all this. That was the first phase
:19:20. > :19:24.of his career. The second phase in his career was building a political
:19:25. > :19:29.party and political machine, which he did well. And the third was
:19:30. > :19:35.getting the goal that he had all his life. I believe he wanted to be
:19:36. > :19:42.number one King of Ulster or Prime Minister. When you analyse the
:19:43. > :19:48.second part of the show, sometimes you reap what you sow yourself. In
:19:49. > :19:54.the course of all those years, he brought down to three prime
:19:55. > :19:59.ministers. David Trimble was cut to pieces by his party in the
:20:00. > :20:04.elections. And Ian Paisley having a go at his own party for the very
:20:05. > :20:10.things he had foisted onto other politicians in the course of those
:20:11. > :20:17.years. I was sad to see it because I was a supporter or both years ago,
:20:18. > :20:25.but he disowned the sexton of my community at one stage. He would say
:20:26. > :20:36.he stood up against loyalist violence. You are talking about our
:20:37. > :20:41.military is. -- paramilitaries. People were telling us we had sold
:20:42. > :20:51.out and we had to defend our country. I was 17 years old. I was
:20:52. > :20:59.being told that my country was being sold out and what do you expect
:21:00. > :21:03.people to do. Ian Paisley was not Gandhi. And he was not Edward Carson
:21:04. > :21:18.because he would never have disowned the people. We went to graveyards
:21:19. > :21:24.and jails over the years. I never saw senior loyalist people denying
:21:25. > :21:33.the loyalist people the way Ian Paisley did. Eamon McCann, what do
:21:34. > :21:37.you think of Ian Paisley 's legacy? In so far as it was expressed in
:21:38. > :21:43.those programmes, it is diminished and damaged. What struck me is the
:21:44. > :21:49.extent to which he is driven by religion. Not to be awkward about
:21:50. > :21:55.factoring religion into these discussions. But when he referred to
:21:56. > :22:01.Peter Robinson as the East, he's not talking about the beasts in the
:22:02. > :22:08.field, that is the beast of revelations, the Antichrist. That is
:22:09. > :22:12.rather extreme. Elsewhere in the programme Dr Paisley said that
:22:13. > :22:19.unlike some others within the free Presbyterian Church, he had the ear
:22:20. > :22:27.of God. Not that he was listening to God, but that God was listening to
:22:28. > :22:32.him. If you look at it in that context you can see why he came
:22:33. > :22:38.across as bitter but also confused in his bitterness. He and his wife
:22:39. > :22:47.were obviously upset about him being deposed as moderator of the free
:22:48. > :22:53.Presbyterian Church and Minister. But it was he who had told them on
:22:54. > :22:59.pain of eternal damnation that they must defend their faith by resisting
:23:00. > :23:04.the encroachment of naturalism. He drummed that into people, that was
:23:05. > :23:08.his faith. So obviously they were devastated and disillusioned looking
:23:09. > :23:15.at their television to see their moderator or the Minister of their
:23:16. > :23:21.church, hail fellow well met with Martin McGuinness. He seemed to have
:23:22. > :23:29.no understanding of his own role in his own downfall. His breach with
:23:30. > :23:36.people who had been around him all the time. Peter Hain said a few
:23:37. > :23:40.months ago, at the end of the day he was the only man who could have sold
:23:41. > :23:45.this deal to the Unionist people in the North. Maybe at the time there
:23:46. > :23:50.was some truth in that. But if it had not been for the fact that he
:23:51. > :23:53.had demonised and destroyed a whole series of Unionist leaders
:23:54. > :23:59.beforehand because he alleged they were about to do a deal, some other
:24:00. > :24:05.deal might well have been done many years earlier with fewer people
:24:06. > :24:12.killed. He seemed to have no insight into that. Peter Hain? I would just
:24:13. > :24:16.offer this comment. Leaders sometimes have to go well ahead of
:24:17. > :24:22.their followers in order to make tough choices and to get agreement.
:24:23. > :24:29.Nelson Mandela had to do that in South Africa. Leadership puts you in
:24:30. > :24:33.that position. And sometimes, and possibly Ian Paisley founded
:24:34. > :24:37.difficult, having shown that leadership and showed enormous
:24:38. > :24:43.courage to do that, probably found it difficult to turn around and find
:24:44. > :24:48.that instead of adulation as he had been used to most of his political
:24:49. > :24:52.career when he had been the one always saying no and providing an
:24:53. > :24:57.echo chamber for the people behind him, to then find that people were
:24:58. > :25:08.questioning what he did. Because always, followers do not understand.
:25:09. > :25:14.Are you seriously comparing Ian Paisley to Nelson Mandela? Of course
:25:15. > :25:17.I am not. I'm simply making the point that leaders often have to do
:25:18. > :25:25.things which leaders are there to do, to lead. Similarly Gerry Adams
:25:26. > :25:30.and Martin McGuinness led Sinn Fein to that position and persuaded their
:25:31. > :25:34.very suspicious rank and file on for example signing up to devolved
:25:35. > :25:40.policing and the rule of law. That is what leadership requires and he
:25:41. > :25:45.showed that. I'm not in the adulation camp for Ian Paisley but I
:25:46. > :25:49.think he deserves credit, regardless of these interviews that may or may
:25:50. > :26:04.not have occurred which I have not even seen. You may not have seen
:26:05. > :26:10.them, but they did occur? ! You can start well but you need to finish
:26:11. > :26:15.well. In this country for the past 40 odd years, we have been fighting.
:26:16. > :26:20.All the leaders want to lead but they do not want to hand over the
:26:21. > :26:33.legacy of a better future. That is why they should sign up to be
:26:34. > :26:42.harassed talks. -- to the Haas talks. He should have worked
:26:43. > :26:51.together because it is the gospel of peace, not of war. Harold Goode is
:26:52. > :27:08.on the line. Are you proud of how Mr Paisley delivered what he really
:27:09. > :27:13.thought in those films? Let me say this first, we are all curious
:27:14. > :27:18.people, and there is curiosity about disputes between Ian Paisley, his
:27:19. > :27:22.church and his party, but these are internal, domestic matters for the
:27:23. > :27:26.Paisley family and the parties and the church to sort out in their own
:27:27. > :27:31.way and in their own place. I am concerned about this being turned
:27:32. > :27:39.into almost a soap where people are watching the next episode. Who
:27:40. > :27:41.turned it into that? The man who controlled the information and
:27:42. > :27:47.brought it away from being internal with Ian Paisley, one man. I just
:27:48. > :27:53.think it is very sad, it is a great pity, and we're all being drawn into
:27:54. > :28:00.it. Why do you think he did it, Harold? Let me say this, we all have
:28:01. > :28:06.our own stories, are all views about Ian Paisley, and I am no exception.
:28:07. > :28:10.We all have our thoughts on his activities of the past, his impact
:28:11. > :28:15.on the political and religious life at this province, and I, like many
:28:16. > :28:19.others over the years have been at the receiving end of his rhetoric,
:28:20. > :28:24.about the betrayal of the truth, his protests that he led and the people
:28:25. > :28:28.that he gathered around Rome church gates when we were having ecumenical
:28:29. > :28:34.services at Petra, and you can go on and on and on. Some people may be
:28:35. > :28:38.surprised to hear me say something that sounds supportive or
:28:39. > :28:45.sympathetic towards Ian Paisley, but let me say this, as a pastor and a
:28:46. > :28:49.preacher, of the Gospel, I have spent 50 or more years of my life
:28:50. > :28:55.proclaiming that all of us can change. We are all called to make
:28:56. > :29:02.personal journeys that at times we find very, very difficult. But let
:29:03. > :29:07.me say this, in my conversations and my observations, I have seen a man
:29:08. > :29:13.make a journey, a very difficult journey, a very difficult personal
:29:14. > :29:20.journey, a journey that took him to a place that he had long resisted, a
:29:21. > :29:24.journalist Steve that I do not think he wanted to make. -- a journey that
:29:25. > :29:30.I do not think he wanted to make. He was aware of the risk of losing his
:29:31. > :29:36.friends, his party has church, the risk of being accused of being a
:29:37. > :29:40.hypocrite, being misunderstood, as he had. I was struck on the second
:29:41. > :29:45.programme and he read the statement, I think it had a lot about where he
:29:46. > :29:50.was coming from, you read the statement about the four demand he
:29:51. > :29:53.made of Republicans, and he said that when they met those demands, I
:29:54. > :30:00.was honour bound to respect and to respond, as he did, and I think
:30:01. > :30:07.that, as Peter Hain has said, that must not be forgotten. And that is
:30:08. > :30:10.the question, even for his supporters, were what he has said
:30:11. > :30:16.about his own former friends and colleagues, will that overshadow
:30:17. > :30:20.what he did when he was standing side-by-side with them? Let us see
:30:21. > :30:25.what reaction we're getting tonight, this young man here, go ahead. At a
:30:26. > :30:30.time when the Unionist community feel so under threat, should the
:30:31. > :30:38.Democratic Unionist party not be looking to the future instead of who
:30:39. > :30:47.said what in the past? Have a look at what is the DUP, what he received
:30:48. > :30:52.during this film, Nigel Dodds. When he came in and he said, Nigel Dodds
:30:53. > :31:01.wants me to go by the end of this week, I said he was a cheeky sod to
:31:02. > :31:07.ask you to do any such thing. I said what authority has he? I was angry
:31:08. > :31:12.and shocked because I thought of how he had been treated by Ian in
:31:13. > :31:19.Europe, he had given him this post to encourage him, and then, this is
:31:20. > :31:27.the thanks that he gets of the day. Ayew frightening -- are you
:31:28. > :31:34.frightened of this happening to you, people that know your inner secrets
:31:35. > :31:35.turning a new? ! No, I am only frightened of Stephen Nolan!
:31:36. > :31:45.APPLAUSE I'm sure it is easy to say that one
:31:46. > :31:50.should know when you get to the point when you have done her best
:31:51. > :31:57.work and it is time to go. I worked for Ian Paisley for two years in the
:31:58. > :32:00.European Parliament for them 30 years ago. There are a couple of
:32:01. > :32:06.things I remember him telling me and saying to me, and one of them, I had
:32:07. > :32:12.much cause to reflect on over the years. There was an occasion when
:32:13. > :32:18.some old clerical friend of hers in United States of America had lost
:32:19. > :32:23.his way by virtue of senility, I suppose, he got very old, and I
:32:24. > :32:29.remember Ian Paisley saying to me, Jim, he was about 55 at the time,
:32:30. > :32:38.when I am 65, I am retiring, because I have seen too many old men make
:32:39. > :32:45.fools of themselves. And I think that is a history lesson in respect
:32:46. > :32:49.of many oil, in political life, where they come to the point that
:32:50. > :32:53.they think that they are indispensable, that nobody else can
:32:54. > :33:02.do the job and I think that was part of Ian's problem in that regard.
:33:03. > :33:20.What a retired? -- what age when you retire at? As soon as I can. Ayew 60
:33:21. > :33:33.at? -- are you 60 at? I am. When my work is done, I will think it is
:33:34. > :33:39.worth while worth doing. Give our guests a round of applause.
:33:40. > :33:45.Lots of ways to get in touch with us tonight, all of the details coming
:33:46. > :34:01.up on your screen, you can call us...
:34:02. > :34:07.Still to come on the programme. Here's what was happening just a few
:34:08. > :34:14.weeks ago on New Year's Eve on the Falls Road.
:34:15. > :34:21.We hear from a priest who knows only too well the human cost of so-called
:34:22. > :34:24.joyriding. A couple of generations ago they
:34:25. > :34:35.might have looked something like this. Over, now, to meet some
:34:36. > :34:41.contestants in a friendly competition at the baby show. This
:34:42. > :34:44.is one competition where a pretty face doesn't count for too much,
:34:45. > :34:49.watch out for things like good teeth, or rather good gums, but
:34:50. > :34:53.whatever the judges are saying, we think it is just cute! But nowadays
:34:54. > :34:56.bonny baby competitions have moved up a notch. The American phenomenon
:34:57. > :34:59.of child beauty pageants is moving across the pond. Later this year
:35:00. > :35:06.Texas-based "Universal Royalty" will holding three pageants in Ireland.
:35:07. > :35:08.And for the first time, one of them will be staged right here in
:35:09. > :35:10.Belfast. Just last September, Universal
:35:11. > :35:15.Royalty's inaugural Irish pageant was met with criticism, and the
:35:16. > :35:21.event was ultimately scaled back. Pageant organiser Annette Hill joins
:35:22. > :35:30.us live from Texas. Why are you coming back when last year was such
:35:31. > :35:33.a disaster? I wouldn't say it was a disaster, you said it was a
:35:34. > :35:37.disaster. The pageant was a success, I would not come back from
:35:38. > :35:43.America to Ireland wasn't a demand for it, and we're coming back
:35:44. > :35:50.because of the demand. The demand for what? A demand to compete in
:35:51. > :35:57.beauty pageants which you already have there. To dress up children? To
:35:58. > :36:04.their hair? Plaster them in a make-up? Tissue Competition
:36:05. > :36:15.Commission was no, family competition, play dress up for the
:36:16. > :36:19.day. It turns these children into them thinking they have to compete
:36:20. > :36:23.in a beauty contest, that is what they are doing, they have to be more
:36:24. > :36:31.beautiful than other people, they are not worth as much of their not
:36:32. > :36:38.absolutely stunning! -- if they are not. But we have other aspects of
:36:39. > :36:42.competition, we have Irish pride, talent, personality, we have other
:36:43. > :36:50.aspects of competition, not just beauty. But they are expected to
:36:51. > :36:55.have long males, they get their nails done, some of these
:36:56. > :37:02.seven-year-old, seven and a old children are given spray tans.
:37:03. > :37:06.Absolutely not, absolutely not, I do not like spray towns on children,
:37:07. > :37:09.what you're seeing as far as entertainment television, that is
:37:10. > :37:15.entertainment television. That is not part of our gentry, if that was
:37:16. > :37:20.the case, we were not becoming all the way from America to Ireland.
:37:21. > :37:27.This lady is delusional, certain things do not ring true. It was not
:37:28. > :37:31.a success when you came to Ireland, you try to host a beauty pageant in
:37:32. > :37:37.Dublin, and you try to move it when people realised what it was, because
:37:38. > :37:42.they said, no we are not hosting it. Finally found a beer garden and you
:37:43. > :37:47.held it there, out of 75 people that applied, I think only about 20
:37:48. > :37:51.turned up. Some of them flew in from England and Australia, so I do not
:37:52. > :37:55.know as they are all from Ireland. The coming back, and you are doing
:37:56. > :37:59.it for free, which I think you believe is being a loss leader to
:38:00. > :38:05.try and drum up a slice of Americana that we can do without in this
:38:06. > :38:09.country. Begin do without it, these children are spray tanned, they are
:38:10. > :38:13.made to wear adult dresses and sometimes showcase their talent
:38:14. > :38:19.singing songs, a six old girl I believe is wearing a poker. Green
:38:20. > :38:23.bikini dancing to inappropriate songs. Does anyone believe that this
:38:24. > :38:27.is appropriate behaviour for a six-year-old child was only doing it
:38:28. > :38:38.because their parents told them to? APPLAUSE
:38:39. > :38:55.Do you want to reply? I'm sorry, I could not hear you. OK! Let's go to
:38:56. > :38:59.the audience. I do not know if I am from a different planet from where
:39:00. > :39:06.you are, but have we not spent the last generation from moving away
:39:07. > :39:10.from saying that you have two B size zero, is it not more of harm to
:39:11. > :39:15.their confidence and self-esteem, let's be honest, if the child is of
:39:16. > :39:20.the age of six, is the child making the decision to go into the
:39:21. > :39:25.competition? Do not trust a parent to know the best for their child, do
:39:26. > :39:28.we not trust the parents to understand the relationship they can
:39:29. > :39:33.have with that child and say this is dressing up for the day, this is all
:39:34. > :39:39.right? But the costumes are not appropriate for that age. What about
:39:40. > :39:45.costumes for Irish dancing? You dress up kids in expensive
:39:46. > :39:51.costumes, adorned with rhinestones, you have wigs, you have make up,
:39:52. > :39:56.with the beauty pageant, you are not required to make break-up, you are
:39:57. > :40:06.not required to have tans. -- required to wear make-up. This is
:40:07. > :40:12.only 10% of what you see. I am looking at some of the rounds, these
:40:13. > :40:26.lifts rounds, that might be part of these pageants. Rhinestones, it is
:40:27. > :40:32.rhinestones! I am looking at what you're bringing to Belfast, and the
:40:33. > :40:39.sassy walk and the pretty feet round for six-year-olds, the daycare
:40:40. > :40:50.including fake hair around for six-year-olds! -- the bake her.
:40:51. > :41:06.Which you have and are standing. -- in Irish dancing. Slippers, fake
:41:07. > :41:12.teeth. We do not have that here! You want a six-year-old to have fake
:41:13. > :41:21.teeth? No, you want a six-year-old to have fake teeth! Is this has the
:41:22. > :41:30.entrance Compleat? -- has some of the entrance Compleat? Let us what
:41:31. > :41:38.you think at home, get in touch with us, all of the details are on
:41:39. > :41:46.screen. Eden Wood is with this, as is Nicky
:41:47. > :41:50.Wood, good evening to you, maybe you can tell us all about Eden and what
:41:51. > :41:58.this beautiful little girl has done over the years? Well, we started
:41:59. > :42:02.with the baby beauty pageants completely by accident, I picked up
:42:03. > :42:07.from her baby-sitter at 14 months old and C suggested put in a
:42:08. > :42:11.pageants because everyone complimented on how cute she was and
:42:12. > :42:16.her journey started completely by accident, but it is a journey that
:42:17. > :42:22.has led to so many avenues that she would not have had otherwise had she
:42:23. > :42:27.not had the stage, the catalyst of pageants. She just finished her
:42:28. > :42:31.first movie in Hollywood, so, I did not the first part of the
:42:32. > :42:36.conversation, I heard some of it, but for us, we have always tried to
:42:37. > :42:40.balance everything that Eden did with a normal life, school
:42:41. > :42:46.activities, church, being taught morals and values thing that I think
:42:47. > :42:49.that is not coming across in your conversation is that this is
:42:50. > :42:54.completely up to the parents discretion, there is nobody out
:42:55. > :43:00.there with a big web that is saying, you have to wear slippers, you have
:43:01. > :43:03.to turn your child, this is things that people decide in their own
:43:04. > :43:09.family unit if they want to do it or not, it is not mandatory, Eden
:43:10. > :43:21.competed for 56 years and never, ever wore a flipper. We are just
:43:22. > :43:34.seeing Eden on screen. You are a beautiful little girl. How were you
:43:35. > :43:41.feeling when you were competing? I loved it because I got to get on the
:43:42. > :43:51.stage and perform. I just had so much fun. Did you feel any pressure
:43:52. > :44:01.to be useful 's no, I loved it. -- to be beautiful. At some point along
:44:02. > :44:14.the way if you are a good parent and your child is acting out then you
:44:15. > :44:24.need to step up and say maybe my child does not like this. Maybe this
:44:25. > :44:32.is not what they need to be doing. So as an late in life parent and
:44:33. > :44:43.teacher of elementary stage students, you have to use common
:44:44. > :44:47.sense. If I had to drag her onstage that would have been a good
:44:48. > :44:56.indicator that it was time to quit, but that did not happen. How old are
:44:57. > :45:09.you? I am eight years old and I will turn nine in February. And you are a
:45:10. > :45:16.film star already? Yes. Thank you for talking to us.
:45:17. > :45:24.I just wonder if that has changed your mind in the studio at all. I
:45:25. > :45:32.think they are far too young to be parading about like that. You think
:45:33. > :45:38.of paedophiles looking at little girls half naked like that. There
:45:39. > :45:46.are two young to make the decision. -- they are too young. I think it is
:45:47. > :45:53.OK to want the best for your kids and encourage confidence. And it is
:45:54. > :45:59.also OK to encourage competition because there is so much of that in
:46:00. > :46:04.the adult world. It is also OK to dress up and play make-believe. But
:46:05. > :46:11.these pageants are exploiters because they encourage and many
:46:12. > :46:19.adult look and feel. That little girl said she was doing it for fun.
:46:20. > :46:27.But that bikini outfit, I think it is wrong. Your breeding narcissism
:46:28. > :46:32.which is a dangerous thing in a still developing young mind. It
:46:33. > :46:40.leaves you open as a developing human being to lots of potential
:46:41. > :46:44.danger. Her mum sounds like a sensible lady and I think if she
:46:45. > :46:50.ever said she did not want to do it any more sheep probably would back
:46:51. > :46:55.off. But I think they get hooked. I think it has brought things into her
:46:56. > :47:01.life but that does not always happen. And what about the girls who
:47:02. > :47:04.do not win, the disappointment in their lives, feeling rejected and
:47:05. > :47:16.unloved because they are valued purely on how they look. Patricia is
:47:17. > :47:22.in Antrim. What do you think? As a mother myself I think it is a
:47:23. > :47:29.disgrace that any mother should have their child in a beauty pageant. I
:47:30. > :47:35.think it is disrespectful. And also the young girls who call on the
:47:36. > :47:42.show, if they do not win they might think they are not good enough or
:47:43. > :47:49.not pretty enough. But to be fair to the parents we just saw and the
:47:50. > :47:57.organiser of this, is that not about how the parent protects the child
:47:58. > :48:01.just as much? You're not protect you child by putting out photographs of
:48:02. > :48:07.them in a bikini. But when you talk about the competition element and
:48:08. > :48:14.the child, how they feel if they do not win. But the kid in sports day
:48:15. > :48:22.with the pushy parent who has pushed them to be a winner from an early
:48:23. > :48:30.age, is there much difference? I think there is. Sports day and
:48:31. > :48:35.things like that, that is part of a school activity. Beauty pageant is
:48:36. > :48:42.not something a child has to compete in. For me it is a mother 's way of
:48:43. > :48:52.doing what they did not get to do, putting their kids up with make up,
:48:53. > :48:58.it is disrespectful. Taylor-Rae Hamilton, you organise beauty
:48:59. > :49:03.pageants in Northern Ireland, how do they differ? Well they differ, I
:49:04. > :49:09.disagree with the American style of beauty pageant. All the girls are
:49:10. > :49:21.painted up and there is no individuality or diversity. They are
:49:22. > :49:28.like miniature adults. But for me, they are just kids on stage. It is
:49:29. > :49:33.all about beauty on the inside. We do the race for life, everyone
:49:34. > :49:39.becomes friends together and onstage it is just about having a bit of
:49:40. > :49:43.personality and feeling no pressure. But you still have winners and
:49:44. > :49:58.losers. All the girls get a certificate of achievement.
:49:59. > :50:01.We used to call it joyriding, but nowadays death driving is seen as a
:50:02. > :50:04.more appropriate way of describing what's happening. Whatever it's
:50:05. > :50:12.called, decades on, those who steal cars for enjoyment continue to wreak
:50:13. > :50:15.havoc on lives. Mother-of-seven Maureen Sheehan was killed by a
:50:16. > :50:19.joyrider on West Belfast's Falls Road in April 2000. A community
:50:20. > :50:27.nurse out on her rounds, Maureen died when the stolen car ploughed
:50:28. > :50:32.into her car. Maureen was a much-loved community nurse who
:50:33. > :50:35.worked in the area. 14 years on, and one of her sons, Patrick, now a
:50:36. > :50:39.Parish Priest posted in the nearby Poleglass area, has been faced with
:50:40. > :50:50.a task he's being dreading since that day. Thank you for coming in. I
:50:51. > :50:56.guess you always knew that you would face a day potentially like you had
:50:57. > :51:03.to. I did. As a priest working in Belfast I always felt that this day
:51:04. > :51:09.would come. And I dreaded it in some ways and I am glad it did not come
:51:10. > :51:14.around ten years ago. I felt more prepared to face it now. What was
:51:15. > :51:21.that day? It was a young man from the parish, just 22, killed in a
:51:22. > :51:26.joyriding incident. We had to bury him last week. And I had to
:51:27. > :51:31.officiate at the funeral. It is the first time I have had to do that
:51:32. > :51:39.since my mother was killed by a joyrider. That was not in the public
:51:40. > :51:44.domain, not everyone at that funeral certainly would have known. At the
:51:45. > :51:49.beginning of the programme I would like to rebalance what you said. I
:51:50. > :51:54.do not feel forced to speak out. What I think was happening was that
:51:55. > :52:01.as a priest I had to speak in that situation. Saint Paul uses the
:52:02. > :52:06.phrase, speaking the truth in love. It was the situation where you had
:52:07. > :52:11.to be true to yourself, you are feeling your own pain but you also
:52:12. > :52:17.have two speak about the truth of what has happened and also speak of
:52:18. > :52:23.love. Because the person who has died is someone 's son or grandson.
:52:24. > :52:32.And you'll officiating last week at the funeral of a joyrider, and in
:52:33. > :52:42.your heart and in your head, you lost your mum because of a joyrider.
:52:43. > :52:48.What was going on in here and in here when you were doing that? What
:52:49. > :52:53.made it easier was what was going on in the past 14 years. That was an
:52:54. > :53:01.important journey for me. What was going on, as a priest I was called
:53:02. > :53:05.to speak the truth in love. I was apprehensive going to the family
:53:06. > :53:12.house. The family were perhaps apprehensive meeting me. But the
:53:13. > :53:18.parents of the young man put me at ease. They were broken by the
:53:19. > :53:26.situation. They helped me to kind of deal with it. If I just tell you
:53:27. > :53:32.what I said, I began the sermon, what had happened was a tragedy. The
:53:33. > :53:38.22-year-old man dying in heartbreaking circumstances is a
:53:39. > :53:42.tragedy. But I also had to say they were circumstances that could have
:53:43. > :53:48.been avoided and should have been avoided. That is the hardness of
:53:49. > :53:53.speaking the truth in love. You sometimes have to speak what is true
:53:54. > :53:59.but you have to try to speak it in love. So the people doing this would
:54:00. > :54:05.somehow here, not your anger but God 's love. And you were holding this
:54:06. > :54:11.story of what happened to you personally. What happened on the day
:54:12. > :54:20.she was killed? She was a community nurse. She was doing calls around
:54:21. > :54:26.the lower Falls Road. She was going to work, she may have been going to
:54:27. > :54:34.mass, which she usually did. She was killed on the road to spread the
:54:35. > :54:40.joyriding incident you televised had happened. That was the spot where
:54:41. > :54:50.she was killed. So the actual location was very close. Yes. That
:54:51. > :54:55.was the location. I have had a look at this story and I simply do not
:54:56. > :55:04.know how much it is still going on in Northern Ireland. What I have
:55:05. > :55:09.seen is some footage, not associated with what happened last week, but
:55:10. > :55:14.what is still going on in our streets. This happened just a couple
:55:15. > :56:09.of weeks ago on the Falls Road, New Year's Eve. Have a look at this.
:56:10. > :56:18.Still going on. What do you say to the people who are doing that? Can
:56:19. > :56:23.you communicate with them? That is the big question. If we cannot,
:56:24. > :56:28.where I'll be left? I do not know whether they know that that was the
:56:29. > :56:34.spot where my mother was killed. If it was the spot I would be saying to
:56:35. > :56:39.them, if you knew that a community nurse who served your community and
:56:40. > :56:46.probably attended your grandparents, if you know that and
:56:47. > :56:51.that was the spot where she died, you have disrespected the memory of
:56:52. > :56:55.somebody who was caring for the community there. Actually the health
:56:56. > :57:01.centre there is named after my mother. The Maureen Sheehan centre.
:57:02. > :57:07.That is what the community wanted to happen. The reason why they need to
:57:08. > :57:11.hear this is if people disrespect professionals who are caring for
:57:12. > :57:18.them who is going to care for them in the future. I want them to hear
:57:19. > :57:24.the love that is coming across because if they lose out, and they
:57:25. > :57:29.will lose out, society will lose out as well. Have you been able to
:57:30. > :57:37.forgive? That is a question everybody wants to ask. I can enter
:57:38. > :57:41.it in this way. It is not a simple question and yes or no does not do
:57:42. > :57:46.justice to stop people here who may have suffered, there is a phrase in
:57:47. > :57:57.the cat is given of the Catholic church that helped me. -- catechism.
:57:58. > :58:03.It is not within our power not to feel or to forget an offence. And
:58:04. > :58:09.this was a hard offence. But the hard that opens itself to the spirit
:58:10. > :58:14.can with the help of God to an injury into compassion. So I would
:58:15. > :58:20.say that 14 years later, I say this as a priest, if I did not have a
:58:21. > :58:25.spiritual power in my life I could not be speaking to you now about
:58:26. > :58:30.this and I could not say that God 's forgiveness is the most important
:58:31. > :58:34.thing. Thank you for joining us this evening and thank you for watching
:58:35. > :58:40.tonight. Goodbye everybody.