:00:00. > :00:15.Here is what we have got tonight. Time to remove flags? A row over an
:00:16. > :00:18.Alliance call for the route of the cycle race.
:00:19. > :00:23.The Health Minister says drink is being sold at pocket money prices.
:00:24. > :00:30.But is it Government's business being involved?
:00:31. > :00:33.A nurse shares the near death experience of patients. One man
:00:34. > :00:40.tells us he has had a glimpse of the other side.
:00:41. > :00:46.And the 16-year-old schoolgirl bidding for stardom, we have a
:00:47. > :01:22.performance from The Voice's Rachael O'Connor.
:01:23. > :01:25.Hello. A big show I had of ours. Their lines has come under fire
:01:26. > :01:37.after saying flags should be removed from the route of the term won. --
:01:38. > :01:40.the Alliance. -- the Giro d'Italia. Rather naive or view to suggest that
:01:41. > :01:49.these flags and emblems should be taken down? It is not naive. I think
:01:50. > :01:56.it is reality. We need to face reality. We have had this going on
:01:57. > :02:00.for far too long. The Alliance Party has been calling for this for the
:02:01. > :02:07.last 40 years, to deal with a shared future, about flags, about having
:02:08. > :02:14.places that people feel safe to go in, not marking territories with
:02:15. > :02:21.pavements being painted. Flags up on lamp posts and murals on the wall,
:02:22. > :02:27.paramilitary murals. To intimidate people. And you want the police and
:02:28. > :02:34.community workers to climb of those lamp posts and take them down? The
:02:35. > :02:41.flags on lamp posts are illegal, so it is to the police to deal with any
:02:42. > :02:47.illegal acts. I am not saying to the police, climb up and get them, what
:02:48. > :02:54.I said was, we need support from politicians or -- all the parties
:02:55. > :02:58.should support the police. We need community organisations, to have the
:02:59. > :03:03.chance to have the debate, whether they want it or not. Do they want
:03:04. > :03:13.the flags, do they want paramilitary murals at the end of the street?
:03:14. > :03:20.What is wrong with that? The first time I saw flags was because they
:03:21. > :03:25.took down a flag at the City Hall. We had an incident here in 1963 or
:03:26. > :03:31.1964 when a trickle up and appeared in the window of a Sinn Fein
:03:32. > :03:40.office. People removed it, thousands went up in its place. That reaction
:03:41. > :03:45.does not make it right. It might be the right thing to do. I am not
:03:46. > :03:52.interested in neutrality, I am interested in people having their
:03:53. > :03:58.Unionists or Republican loyalist views. We make people neutral and
:03:59. > :04:03.whitewash them. I am just back from London, the places in London you
:04:04. > :04:08.would not go into, and they do not have flags up. There are places in
:04:09. > :04:13.New York, Los Angeles, but people don't go into. They do not need
:04:14. > :04:21.flags up to kick them out. And that needs to see the amount of
:04:22. > :04:28.journalists that visit these places. People go to Vietnam... But is it
:04:29. > :04:32.the image we want to send out to the rest of the world, we will tell you
:04:33. > :04:39.about the murder campaign and the violence, and the gunman in masks?
:04:40. > :04:48.There are people want to come and see it, and if we look at some of
:04:49. > :04:54.the -- this stuff, most visitors' reactions -- most visited reaction
:04:55. > :04:59.is Giants Causeway. I see these murals as political murals. Whether
:05:00. > :05:03.or not I agree with them is immaterial, what I am saying is you
:05:04. > :05:07.cannot neutralise the society. We went through all of this, and you
:05:08. > :05:16.talk about politicians getting together and doing all of this. What
:05:17. > :05:22.came first, the politics or the paramilitaries? We have so much in
:05:23. > :05:30.this country that we can put on our walls, we do not want to attract the
:05:31. > :05:38.wrong type of people to come and look at paramilitary murals on our
:05:39. > :05:44.walls. What about history? It is part of history, but are we not to
:05:45. > :05:53.-- do we want to glorify violence's to ask people to go away with the
:05:54. > :05:59.images of gunman... You are raising this around a cycle race. I follow
:06:00. > :06:03.cycling, and difficult it is that if you watched the Tour de France this
:06:04. > :06:08.year you will see every political lunatic trying to get their views
:06:09. > :06:13.put across on the TV. These people are here to take part in a cycle
:06:14. > :06:16.race. I will be flags from every country in the world. You saying to
:06:17. > :06:22.me realistically that you do not want anybody turning up with a
:06:23. > :06:30.flag? It isn't going to happen. We also need to remember... Just
:06:31. > :06:34.remember here, Sir Bradley Wiggins is going to win the race and they
:06:35. > :06:39.will be -- and they will all be wearing union Jacks on their shorts.
:06:40. > :06:54.People are here to focus on the race. I doubt there will be murals
:06:55. > :07:02.with masks and guns. -- flags with masks on guns. These races are by
:07:03. > :07:08.professional Bull -- these races are filmed by professional cameramen.
:07:09. > :07:12.Nobody is interested in anything other than the cyclists and how they
:07:13. > :07:24.perform. And this is a team race, so if you take Bradley Wiggins' race --
:07:25. > :07:31.team, this is not something that has just come about... There is a wider
:07:32. > :07:34.issue, which is never mind whether these murals should stay up or stay
:07:35. > :07:39.down for a cycle race, should they stay up or stay down for all of us
:07:40. > :07:43.in the society we live in? We should not just be doing something because
:07:44. > :07:49.I race is coming up in Northern Ireland. Maybe you are right. And we
:07:50. > :07:55.should have a debate about whether we want these murals and flags
:07:56. > :08:02.long-term in this country. There is a lady here, go ahead. We are
:08:03. > :08:04.speaking about taking murals down. What we do not realise is community
:08:05. > :08:09.groups and the Government want reconciliation. Surely bringing
:08:10. > :08:16.these murals down will not provide us with reconciliation. The youth of
:08:17. > :08:25.today will not be in any way together, we will just be segregated
:08:26. > :08:29.even more. The man here. I would like to pick up something Billy
:08:30. > :08:36.said. It was the single state loyalist British state that
:08:37. > :08:44.introduced the stuff -- this stuff. I am from Tyrone, and I see a big
:08:45. > :08:51.UVF gunman, I do not feel confident walking up and down there. So maybe
:08:52. > :08:58.you want to speak to that young man. How old are you? 18. He does not
:08:59. > :09:04.feel comfortable. I do not feel comfortable going to Royal Hospital.
:09:05. > :09:07.I do not feel comfortable shopping in most shopping centres. I would
:09:08. > :09:12.say to you, there are lot of Republican murals. Do you want to of
:09:13. > :09:19.the hunger strikers to take the hunger strikers. I am not from
:09:20. > :09:27.Belfast, so I do not know. But the point I am making is, why
:09:28. > :09:37.raise this around a cycle race. Obviously she has never seen a cycle
:09:38. > :09:43.race before. Go ahead, at the front. This country is rich in culture. Why
:09:44. > :09:51.should we remove it just because we have a world event coming to it? The
:09:52. > :09:58.Alliance are making a big issue, and so are Sinn Fein, they want it in
:09:59. > :10:03.west Belfast and all of that. We should express the culture. You have
:10:04. > :10:07.seen the fighting -- you have seen the fighting that there is in this
:10:08. > :10:13.country. Are you saying the way to handle that is to have them all up?
:10:14. > :10:21.No. I I am against the paramilitary murals. When you have gunman holding
:10:22. > :10:28.machine guns, that is glorifying violence. That is something we do
:10:29. > :10:37.not want to showcase. It is my right to say, we have a very rich culture
:10:38. > :10:43.here. That is the flag of our nation. We have beautiful scenery we
:10:44. > :10:58.can debate on our walls. We have lots of sporting heroes. So why take
:10:59. > :11:02.flags down? Do you think it will run smoothly when you take the flags
:11:03. > :11:12.down? What happened when the flag was taken down in City Hall? Chaos.
:11:13. > :11:17.Why is the flag so important to you? It is not, I am just stating a
:11:18. > :11:27.fact. It is not important to me, it is just the chaos it causes. The
:11:28. > :11:36.other macro -- if it hadn't been for us, we would either have above
:11:37. > :11:45.Belfast City Hall the union jack up against the tricolour or no union
:11:46. > :11:51.Jack at all. Go ahead, Chris. I think Anna has done us a service
:11:52. > :11:57.about raising this issue. It is not about the Giro d'Italia, it is about
:11:58. > :12:01.our society going forward. There is re-emerging going on around the
:12:02. > :12:04.murals and take the point that there are different communities with
:12:05. > :12:10.different about this. But Anna is right, we need to move away from
:12:11. > :12:14.expressing the crude idea of paramilitary murals. But in terms of
:12:15. > :12:18.the flag, we need to be clear. This idea that it is a cultural
:12:19. > :12:27.expression to get up on a lamp post and stick up a flag is ridiculous.
:12:28. > :12:30.One of your own election candidates put on social media this week a
:12:31. > :12:36.photograph of himself and erecting a flag in the middle of February. I
:12:37. > :12:40.don't know if he is trying to claim cheap it as a loyalist but what does
:12:41. > :12:48.that do for this society? One of your election candidates is claiming
:12:49. > :12:53.marked territory. I am not aware that happened but I will accept what
:12:54. > :12:59.you are saying. It is one of your election candidates. I will have to
:13:00. > :13:05.check. The reality about this is that the union flag is the flag of
:13:06. > :13:10.this nation and I have already said that people will want to put it up.
:13:11. > :13:14.I do think the Alliance Party is obsessed by loyalists and
:13:15. > :13:19.Republicans and I think everything and it talks about, she doesn't
:13:20. > :13:26.mention the gun men on the Falls Road and never has. If you want to
:13:27. > :13:29.check social media, you will find people close to the Alliance Party
:13:30. > :13:43.are actually saying that our flag back up. I have never said they were
:13:44. > :13:48.Unionist paramilitary murals, I have only ever talked about paramilitary
:13:49. > :13:55.murals. My point is I absolutely recognise that the union Jack is the
:13:56. > :14:14.flag of the country, I respect that. But what I object to is seeing the
:14:15. > :14:22.Union Jack being left on lamp post. Or the flags and the hills, it is
:14:23. > :14:32.all about history. Why would you want to take that away? You want the
:14:33. > :14:39.flags down, do you? I think it is through no to we have flags and they
:14:40. > :14:48.have been cut that I'm torn. That is a different story. I want to talk
:14:49. > :14:53.about murals. I am here to talk about the complexities and the
:14:54. > :14:59.understanding of what murals rarely stand for. On one hand, we have
:15:00. > :15:01.local communities who have a negative attitude towards reimaging
:15:02. > :15:08.programmes and then we have the positive images against these
:15:09. > :15:18.programmes. In east Belfast, over the last year, we are currently in
:15:19. > :15:21.the process of removing of 25 paramilitary political murals, call
:15:22. > :15:31.them what you want, but is currently happening. I support, and I said it
:15:32. > :15:36.early on, my difficulty with reimaging is they took down a mural
:15:37. > :15:44.and replaced it with a butterfly, in my opinion, the people that put up
:15:45. > :15:49.in past place -- in the first place, I don't agree with reimaging but
:15:50. > :15:54.what I do agree with is reimagining. We also have no idea how much
:15:55. > :16:00.community support there is for murals. A lot of people would be
:16:01. > :16:09.terrified about speaking out against them. They might get shot or
:16:10. > :16:17.kneecap. Let me put it like this, I work in the community, to murals
:16:18. > :16:19.were taken down recently, they were taken off because we worked with the
:16:20. > :16:25.organisation in the area and we worked with the residents, we
:16:26. > :16:32.carried out an independent survey and people said they wanted it. If
:16:33. > :16:36.you want to come here, you will see these lovely light shining up on the
:16:37. > :16:41.wall web pages to be murals. Let's be iced about this, yes you can do
:16:42. > :16:46.it, but it is about changing people's mindsets. I do want to ask
:16:47. > :16:50.you something that you talked about on the radio today because we were
:16:51. > :16:55.discussing this on the radio programme and got on to how much of
:16:56. > :16:59.a grid to paramilitaries have on Northern Ireland and you said on the
:17:00. > :17:04.radio show today that you believe the police are turning a blind eye
:17:05. > :17:08.to protection rackets, collection money, intimidating businesses, do
:17:09. > :17:14.you stand over that? I think they are not doing enough. You said
:17:15. > :17:20.turning a blind eye. That is what I am saying, they are not doing
:17:21. > :17:26.enough. You said yourself... Are they turning a blind eye? will, if
:17:27. > :17:31.you are not doing enough and you aren't doing it, then they are
:17:32. > :17:35.turning a blind eye. They are not doing enough because I think there
:17:36. > :17:40.is the lack of political support for them to challenge paramilitaries. As
:17:41. > :17:46.you said, quite rightly yourself, we all know about this protection
:17:47. > :17:50.racket, I know about it, police know about prostitution being run by
:17:51. > :17:57.paramilitaries, human trafficking, there was involvement of our
:17:58. > :18:00.paramilitaries. Are paramilitaries alive and well in that they are
:18:01. > :18:05.intimidating businesses and collecting money? I have worked with
:18:06. > :18:12.a lot of my and I haven't had that. There is a lot of gangsterism and
:18:13. > :18:24.organised crime going on and quite a lot of it comes from people who have
:18:25. > :18:28.moved into this society. If Anna is saying that the police are letting
:18:29. > :18:37.this happen -- happening, then that Mr. . You in the MLA have to take
:18:38. > :18:40.this up. If the police are allowing people bashed the police to turn a
:18:41. > :18:45.blind eye, you need to get that stop. On the collection of
:18:46. > :18:50.protection money, would you advise a small business in any area... To
:18:51. > :18:57.stand up to them? And what do they do if they get burnt out the next
:18:58. > :19:01.day? I am quite willing to meet with any business who say they are paying
:19:02. > :19:05.protection money to paramilitaries and I will go and meet them and we
:19:06. > :19:09.will go and resolve it one way or another with the police. If Anna is
:19:10. > :19:14.saying the police are turning a blind eye, if she is saying that the
:19:15. > :19:18.police are in collusion with paramilitaries, they are on
:19:19. > :19:24.protection rackets, I don't believe that is happening. I am saying and
:19:25. > :19:34.it should call for an investigation. I am saying we are not doing -- they
:19:35. > :19:41.are not doing enough. Don't say that. That is different from turning
:19:42. > :19:48.a blind eye. I know myself, chops told me they paid projection money
:19:49. > :19:57.on a weekly basis. That is something we need to deal with. Corner shops
:19:58. > :20:01.are already suffering. You are telling me these are Loyalist
:20:02. > :20:11.paramilitaries? To answer the question. Eyes-macro and you are not
:20:12. > :20:19.aware of it? Are you telling me that? I know there are gangsters in
:20:20. > :20:24.society. If anybody is aware of Loyalist paramilitaries, I am quite
:20:25. > :20:30.happy to meet with them and try and get it resolved. Before we move on
:20:31. > :20:34.to this, you have been at the heart of the story way you were attacked,
:20:35. > :20:36.racial abuse, very little difference between something writing something
:20:37. > :20:44.online and something shouting to you on this street, has it hurt? Of
:20:45. > :20:49.course it has. It is really degrading, demeaning, file, and
:20:50. > :20:58.absolutely horrid. These messages to me. Sometimes, people like me and
:20:59. > :21:04.others give you such a hard time, did it hurt big time? I felt sad
:21:05. > :21:12.about it. I love this country. And I felt, as an elected representative,
:21:13. > :21:17.I have the right to speak out about issues I care very much about and I
:21:18. > :21:23.thought I would make our society a better place. So, I just felt it was
:21:24. > :21:29.so unacceptable, unjustified for them to react in this way. And I
:21:30. > :21:32.expect people -- respect people expressing their views, but they
:21:33. > :21:35.were not expressing their views, they were just abusing me, and that
:21:36. > :21:41.is what I found really disappointing. And I have to say, I
:21:42. > :21:47.must use your airtime to thank the hundreds of people who have sent me
:21:48. > :21:59.messages, including Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister. Thank you.
:22:00. > :22:09.Nick leg rope to you? he rang me this afternoon. He said, this is
:22:10. > :22:15.Nick Clegg, and I said who? I told him, it is a very small element in
:22:16. > :22:23.our society. It does not represent the majority of people. Don't talk
:22:24. > :22:29.about Nick Clegg and tuition fees to downplay, if they are young people
:22:30. > :22:33.in this audience. Thank you for coming in, Billy. Thank you for
:22:34. > :22:41.coming in. Give our guests around of applause. Right... Loads of you
:22:42. > :22:45.getting in touch tonight with the programme. We continue the
:22:46. > :22:50.discussion on Twitter. Join the show and for a couple of hours after the
:22:51. > :22:54.show, I will be talking to you on Twitter. If you want a ban us
:22:55. > :23:05.tonight, he is the number. The course cost up to 5p a minute from
:23:06. > :23:17.most landlines. If you are tweeting me, it comes straight into my phone.
:23:18. > :23:20.Here it is. Right, now, 16-year-old Londonderry schoolgirls Rachael
:23:21. > :23:25.O'Connor is trying to make it in The Voice. She has been described as
:23:26. > :23:29.wonderful, original and great. We did hope to have her singing live
:23:30. > :23:33.today but unfortunately, when she came in for a rehearsal this
:23:34. > :23:37.afternoon, she was suffering from a really sore throat and we decided to
:23:38. > :23:43.let her go home, get into bed, but she did, and thank you, recorded
:23:44. > :24:15.beta full version of this song by Emily Sandy. -- Emeli Sande.
:24:16. > :24:41.# So I will be job clown behind the clouds.
:24:42. > :24:50.# I will be your clown. # I am going round in circles.
:24:51. > :25:01.# From a distance, my choice is simple.
:25:02. > :25:07.# From a distance, I can entertain. # And you can see me, I put make-up
:25:08. > :25:19.on my face. # There is no way you can feel it.
:25:20. > :25:40.# I am so far-away. # So I will be your clown. #.
:25:41. > :25:49.Mum and dad are in the studio. Hello there. She was struggling today, and
:25:50. > :25:55.she still sang that beautifully. You must be so proud. Very proud of her.
:25:56. > :26:09.But she struggled tonight. Where is she? -- how is she? Are very sore
:26:10. > :26:17.throat. You must be very excited. I am one of those dads who stand out a
:26:18. > :26:23.football match and get very excited. It is a scary time, I guess, of
:26:24. > :26:28.someone that age, that the aspiration is to make it big time.
:26:29. > :26:32.Are you frightened that she -- if she doesn't, she will come crashing
:26:33. > :26:39.down? How will you look after her? We are thankfully a grounded family,
:26:40. > :26:47.she knows that this might happen. Every youngster wants to be a pop
:26:48. > :26:53.star, millions try, one ought to make it, and she is realistically --
:26:54. > :26:57.realistic enough to know it is a very slim chance. She was
:26:58. > :27:02.disappointed to -- that she could not sing live tonight, but she does
:27:03. > :27:07.what -- she just wants to do her best in the future. Give her a round
:27:08. > :27:16.of applause and her mum and dad as well.
:27:17. > :27:24.Here's what's still to come. Are the days of cheap booze with minimum
:27:25. > :27:31.pricing back on the agenda, will all drinkers be penalised?
:27:32. > :27:35.My next just met -- worked as an intensive care nurse for 17 years,
:27:36. > :27:39.and gathered personal testimony from patients who claimed to have near
:27:40. > :27:53.death experiences. Ladies and gentlemen, Doctor Penny Santoro.
:27:54. > :28:00.Good to see you. Have a seat. How many years were you a nurse? 21
:28:01. > :28:07.years, 17 were in intensive care. And by the nature of that, it is
:28:08. > :28:14.concentrated, it is intense. Very much so. What you get to see is very
:28:15. > :28:17.personal, it is intimate. Yes, you can build up quite a relationship
:28:18. > :28:24.with your patient and the family as well. So you spend quite a lot of
:28:25. > :28:28.time with them. It was early on in my career as an intensive care nurse
:28:29. > :28:32.when I was looking after a man who was clearly dying, and it was on
:28:33. > :28:37.this night shift when we kind of connected. I was going to do some
:28:38. > :28:42.routine nursing care, and as I adjusted the bed, the man nearly
:28:43. > :28:47.jumped out of the bed in agony. I felt as if I had swapped places with
:28:48. > :28:51.him and I could understand what he was going through. He was terrified
:28:52. > :28:56.of dying. Yes, and he knew he was dying, and he mouthed to me leave me
:28:57. > :29:01.alone and let me die in peace. That is something which had such a
:29:02. > :29:06.profound effect on me that I was motivated to learn more about death.
:29:07. > :29:12.I just think that we do not know -- know enough about death. I looked at
:29:13. > :29:16.nursing courses available, but they were all palliative care. So I
:29:17. > :29:19.started reading about death and I came across a near death
:29:20. > :29:24.experiences. I thought, these people are telling us that death is a
:29:25. > :29:28.lovely experience, it is nothing to be afraid of. But I think my
:29:29. > :29:33.training as a nurse was very scientific, it made me quite
:29:34. > :29:39.sceptical, and I thought is this just the brain shutting down, is it
:29:40. > :29:42.like oxygen, so I wanted to find out all of these things. And of course I
:29:43. > :29:52.was working in intensive care which is the first -- perfect base to
:29:53. > :29:56.study them. -- the perfect place. You saw a number of people who were
:29:57. > :30:03.so seriously ill, that they were very, very close to death. And yet
:30:04. > :30:08.it is confusing, disorienting, when -- it blew my mind when you told me
:30:09. > :30:11.about some of the stories that what people somehow were able to tell
:30:12. > :30:17.when they came out of consciousness. Give me an example.
:30:18. > :30:23.The strongest case was a patient I was looking after. He was looking --
:30:24. > :30:28.making quite a good recovery, but we decided to sit him in the chair this
:30:29. > :30:33.morning. After we sat him in the chair and noticed his breathing
:30:34. > :30:38.pattern has changed, and then the alarm started to go off that his
:30:39. > :30:44.oxygen was a bit low. I gave him some extra oxygen, then he started
:30:45. > :30:50.to go grey and clammy. I thought, this is not good. His heart rate
:30:51. > :30:53.changed to a fast rhythm, his blood pressure dropped, and I thought if
:30:54. > :30:58.we do not get this man into bed quickly he will have a cardiac
:30:59. > :31:01.arrest. We got him back into bed, by which time he was deeply
:31:02. > :31:06.unconscious. He was not responding to us calling his name, the doctor
:31:07. > :31:11.came and reviewed him, we gave him some fluid for his blood pressure,
:31:12. > :31:16.and then shortly afterwards he started to deteriorate again. I went
:31:17. > :31:20.off to look for another doctor, but the consultant happened to be
:31:21. > :31:28.walking in. He came and examined the man, Sean a pupil torch in his eyes,
:31:29. > :31:33.and he waited and then his condition stabilised. The consultant went back
:31:34. > :31:37.to his office. After about 30 minutes the patient started to
:31:38. > :31:41.Flickr his eyelids a little bit, and then about three and a half hours
:31:42. > :31:45.later he regained full consciousness. As soon as he did, he
:31:46. > :31:51.said that he had been out of his body, he had been up on the ceiling
:31:52. > :31:54.looking down. He accurately describe what the doctor did with examining
:31:55. > :31:59.his eyes, he described me cleaning his mouth and described the
:32:00. > :32:06.physiotherapist poking her head around the curtains. How could he
:32:07. > :32:10.have? We don't know. He was deeply unconscious, so I thought, was it
:32:11. > :32:14.because of lack of oxygen or the drugs? At the time he was not having
:32:15. > :32:22.any drugs at all. So you believe from that story alone that he was
:32:23. > :32:29.somehow really looking down on him dying? You think that's what
:32:30. > :32:34.happened? Give me another example. There are many examples. Another
:32:35. > :32:38.patient again, it started off with an out of body experience where he
:32:39. > :32:42.felt he was on the shoulder of the nurse, looking down at what she was
:32:43. > :32:46.doing to him. Then he said he floated upwards into a warm vortex
:32:47. > :32:52.of bear, then he went into this place, it was another realm where he
:32:53. > :32:57.saw a dead relative who came over and chatted with him. He was really
:32:58. > :33:01.happy there, he had no pain, he was really comfortable, and he just
:33:02. > :33:06.wanted to stay there. But the relative said, no, you have got to
:33:07. > :33:11.go back, it is not your time. But that is possibly the brain being,
:33:12. > :33:15.with a lack of oxygen, it is imagination, a dreamlike state, it
:33:16. > :33:18.does not explain an out of body experience. It doesn't tell us that
:33:19. > :33:23.when we die, that is going to happen. No, but people are very
:33:24. > :33:29.profoundly transformed as a lot of the -- as a result of their
:33:30. > :33:36.experience. But was that a relative he could not have known about? No,
:33:37. > :33:41.this was another patient. We watched them, it was on a night shift, and
:33:42. > :33:45.we could see him gesturing to somebody he could not see. He was
:33:46. > :33:50.clearly talking, and he had this big smile on his face, and he was
:33:51. > :33:53.saying, what are you doing here? In the morning when his family came
:33:54. > :33:58.back, he said that during the night he had been visited by his dead
:33:59. > :34:02.grandmother, his dead mother but also his sister, and he did not know
:34:03. > :34:06.why his sister should be with him. Unbeknownst to him, his sister had
:34:07. > :34:11.died a week before but nobody had told him that, the family did not
:34:12. > :34:17.want to step back his recovery. So here's why I am not so interested in
:34:18. > :34:22.this. Usually when I would hear discussions like this I would
:34:23. > :34:29.think, someone winding it up, making it up. She spent decades in
:34:30. > :34:37.intensive care, with many, many patients. And what if this does
:34:38. > :34:42.happen? Does that mean it is scary to die, or not? What impact has it
:34:43. > :34:46.had on you? It has made me re-evaluate my life, and reading
:34:47. > :34:52.about these experiences and studying them in such great depth, because I
:34:53. > :34:57.did the doctoral study for eight years, and it has had a great effect
:34:58. > :35:03.on me. It is as if I have had to get rid of my figures -- preconceptions.
:35:04. > :35:07.Having had this interaction with the patient as well as the deep study of
:35:08. > :35:12.these experiences, has made me completely change my views. I have
:35:13. > :35:14.to be more open-minded about what these experiences are. With my
:35:15. > :35:20.research I have just scratched the surface. Does it make you more
:35:21. > :35:23.religious? It can make some people who have the experience more
:35:24. > :35:28.religious, it can make some people less religious if you like. It has
:35:29. > :35:36.varying different effects. Mark Kelly, thank you for coming in. You
:35:37. > :35:42.were injured in a bomb in 97 to six. What happened? In the context of
:35:43. > :35:48.what happened. -- 1976. Initially I had been experiencing a good
:35:49. > :35:54.recovery, and was out of intensive care, and convocation set in, and
:35:55. > :36:01.the consultant in charge of my case was away on a lecture tour. --
:36:02. > :36:09.complications set in. I had reached the point of exhaustion. I am a
:36:10. > :36:16.fighter by nature, but at this point I took a conscious decision that
:36:17. > :36:23.there was no point in fighting on. And that night I sort of left my
:36:24. > :36:29.body, and started to travel towards a very warm, welcoming, bright
:36:30. > :36:37.light. It was almost a sense of convergence as I travelled down that
:36:38. > :36:45.journey, and I felt peaceful. You vividly remember this? Oh, indeed. I
:36:46. > :36:50.heard you talk about chemical inducement or whether it is the
:36:51. > :36:55.body's national reaction. -- natural reaction. I know I chose it was not
:36:56. > :36:59.-- I chose that it was my time to go. I came to an expanse of water,
:37:00. > :37:04.like a broad river. I was journeying across that, and there were people
:37:05. > :37:08.whom I felt I should recognise but there was a welcome there, but I
:37:09. > :37:18.could not identify anyone in particular. But I was still happily
:37:19. > :37:22.allowing myself to go, and I felt, as I said, at one, whether it was an
:37:23. > :37:29.eternal sense of well-being or whatever, I was more than happy to
:37:30. > :37:34.go. But I had been involved in a difficult decision around the
:37:35. > :37:40.challenge we had put in our community of young people, then
:37:41. > :37:47.parish priest for the youth authority had -- should smack
:37:48. > :37:52.facility should be open in the summer. -- the youth facility. I had
:37:53. > :37:55.been up at the hospital ward supporting -- they had been
:37:56. > :38:00.supporting me at the hospital ward in my recovery. From behind, I got a
:38:01. > :38:05.sense of voices, quietly at first and then becoming louder. And you
:38:06. > :38:09.really think this was the point at which you as a human being on this
:38:10. > :38:15.planet was deciding whether to live or die? And you really think that
:38:16. > :38:18.you were seeing yourself on the edge of leaving this planet, you could
:38:19. > :38:23.see it yourself, on the other side? I was standing on the precipice of
:38:24. > :38:27.making a decision of whether I was going on not going, and it was what
:38:28. > :38:34.was occurring behind me started to get louder... I had to use a huge
:38:35. > :38:37.energy to extract myself from that, I probably felt more exhausted
:38:38. > :38:42.extracting myself from it because there was so much relief and welcome
:38:43. > :38:49.to where I was going, but it was as if there was unfinished business.
:38:50. > :38:54.Does that sound familiar? Yes, that is very commonly reported, and for
:38:55. > :38:58.some people it is so comfortable where you are that you do not want
:38:59. > :39:01.to come back. And there is a lot of guilt sometimes, because people who
:39:02. > :39:05.have the experience are prepared to go where they are going and leave
:39:06. > :39:12.their family and everything behind, so it is a very powerful experience.
:39:13. > :39:16.Obviously the ball -- the bomb was mind blowing enough, but it must
:39:17. > :39:28.change the way you look at the rest of your life. That is 37 years ago,
:39:29. > :39:31.and I think it does change your outlook and you wonder why that
:39:32. > :39:38.decision was made, I have four children, within the youth club we
:39:39. > :39:53.had another challenge in rebuilding the facility buildings. We released
:39:54. > :39:58.-- I managed a singer who wrote about peace and harmony, and that
:39:59. > :40:02.was released. We are only scratching the surface of this tonight, but
:40:03. > :40:09.thank you for coming in. Give our guests a round of applause.
:40:10. > :40:18.That us move on. The Health Minister is considering making drink more
:40:19. > :40:24.expensive. He says it is being sold at pocket money prices. Over 100
:40:25. > :40:29.young people were treated for the effects of alcohol and drugs at a
:40:30. > :40:36.gig in Belfast. We have been out on the streets of Belfast city centre
:40:37. > :41:07.with a volunteer group. Things got kitty messy. -- pretty messy.
:41:08. > :41:13.Street Pastors have seen lots of people who are intoxicated and need
:41:14. > :41:19.help. If they are in a really bad way, we will bring the Ambulance
:41:20. > :41:25.Service. All we will bring them to the SOS bus whether medics can be of
:41:26. > :41:30.assistance to them. A couple of weeks ago, we came across a young
:41:31. > :41:36.girl who was just lying in the street, nobody near her, her friends
:41:37. > :41:40.had go home, we had to lift and carry her to the SOS. She was so
:41:41. > :41:46.drunk, she could not tell us her name way she was from. It is all
:41:47. > :41:54.about being caring for people and helping where we can. We have a rush
:41:55. > :42:00.and dustpan and if we find broken glass, we remove it. It can be
:42:01. > :42:06.dangerous with girls walking around in their bare feet. Your feet must
:42:07. > :42:12.be freezing. We carry flip-flops to give to some of the jungles who
:42:13. > :42:20.can't work -- walk around in their high heels. We can read or car,
:42:21. > :42:24.bankers, people are very cold. We can help them to get warm until we
:42:25. > :42:32.get them into a taxi and we get them home. Joining me to discuss this
:42:33. > :42:39.here in the studio, let's start with you, David. It is for the government
:42:40. > :42:44.to get a grip with this, intervene and stop people wasting themselves
:42:45. > :42:47.to the point where they are endangering their own lives. It is
:42:48. > :42:52.absolutely not for the government to interfere. To suggest that
:42:53. > :42:57.government interference would have any meaningful impact is improbable.
:42:58. > :43:03.You are suggesting that if the government get involved, puts up the
:43:04. > :43:08.price of alcohol, that will magically stop the problem. But
:43:09. > :43:14.since 2004, the comes -- consumption of alcohol in the UK has fallen by
:43:15. > :43:24.12%. The 12% fall during the time of all these times of a legit cheap
:43:25. > :43:30.drinks. -- allegedly treat drinks. -- cheap drinks. We have a problem
:43:31. > :43:41.with no -- alcoholism in Northern Ireland. 284 people die of alcohol
:43:42. > :43:44.related deaths in Northern Ireland a year and there is no outcry about
:43:45. > :43:50.it. There are outcries about other issues. Where do we draw the line
:43:51. > :43:55.with the nanny state getting involved in our lives to the extent
:43:56. > :44:01.that we cannot do what we want to do with our own bodies. If we want to
:44:02. > :44:09.get off and our head on drink, what is wrong with it? it imposes huge
:44:10. > :44:15.costs on society, family costs, cost on the state. I am not suggesting
:44:16. > :44:21.that we put up alcohol prices across the board. We are saying the minimum
:44:22. > :44:26.price of alcohol is a very targeted measure and will deal with people
:44:27. > :44:32.who abuse this. That is a contradiction and that is why it
:44:33. > :44:36.goes tragically wrong. What you would do is affect the people who
:44:37. > :44:40.had the least amount of money to be able to afford alcohol but who
:44:41. > :44:45.wanted so those people with disposable income will reduce, they
:44:46. > :44:52.will have less money for food and heat. so, we should sit back, let
:44:53. > :44:59.people kill themselves, damage themselves, society, costs the NHS a
:45:00. > :45:02.fortune? You are suggesting the magic wand is government, it is not,
:45:03. > :45:11.it is people being responsible for what they do. Whistle when we saw
:45:12. > :45:18.young people on the street, young fella here, go ahead. As a student,
:45:19. > :45:24.if you want about with not much money, you need a low enough price
:45:25. > :45:31.of alcohol so you can have a good time. Off-licences have a lot
:45:32. > :45:38.cheaper things. Maybe a limited price in the off-licences but not in
:45:39. > :45:46.the bar. You talk about people being responsible, I wonder if people in
:45:47. > :45:49.the case of the miners, will they be responsible enough to refund the
:45:50. > :45:55.taxpayer for the use they made of our emergency services? You could
:45:56. > :46:01.say that about people who play sport, fat people like me and the
:46:02. > :46:09.obesity crisis. Couldn't you? Where do you stop? I think there was a
:46:10. > :46:15.certain recklessness. I don't Inc what you are doing or what the
:46:16. > :46:18.sportspeople on the ring is reckless but if somebody is going with the
:46:19. > :46:24.intention of ending up in the states that people are in, that is the
:46:25. > :46:27.difference. I don't think it is the price of alcohol that affects how
:46:28. > :46:35.much people drink. People will find a way to get drunk anyway. They will
:46:36. > :46:43.go out one night instead of two and get twice as drunk. The Chief
:46:44. > :46:47.Medical Officer of Northern Ireland disagrees with that. She says if you
:46:48. > :46:54.do raise the price of alcohol, in England, it has been shown, he is
:46:55. > :46:59.the man with the statistics, it really does have an impact. Let's
:47:00. > :47:08.hear what he says. He was spelling out the pressures on the NHS. 12,000
:47:09. > :47:14.admissions each year. 3000 people in treatment for alcohol addiction. 270
:47:15. > :47:21.deaths directly related to alcohol in 2012, a 30% increase from 2001.
:47:22. > :47:26.We know the economic costs are somewhere in the region of ?900
:47:27. > :47:32.million each year. 250 million of that is to the health service. We
:47:33. > :47:40.could employ 6000 new nurses, 20,000 operations. If we were in an ideal
:47:41. > :47:48.world when no one wanted to drink, that would never happen. I am not
:47:49. > :47:53.saying that. Alcohol is with us, it is part of society, but it is a
:47:54. > :47:58.psychoactive drug and we need to ensure it is marketed and sold at a
:47:59. > :48:07.price which reflects that. That is be to the chase, marketed at a price
:48:08. > :48:09.that reflects that. People are advocating making it too expensive
:48:10. > :48:17.for the ordinary person in the street. Nonsense. If you introduce a
:48:18. > :48:25.50p minimum price of alcohol, that is the floor price so you are not
:48:26. > :48:29.selling cheap spirits onto the market. That would bring about a 6.7
:48:30. > :48:37.reduction of alcohol over ten years, it would save 3000 lives in
:48:38. > :48:42.England over ten years and prevent 97,000 admissions to hospital. In
:48:43. > :48:47.Northern Ireland, that would save us an equivalent of ?60 million each
:48:48. > :49:01.and every day. But it would hit the people at the bottom the hard disk.
:49:02. > :49:08.-- the hardest. A minimum price would not hurt the middle-class.
:49:09. > :49:14.Tool in fact the people who -- it will impact the people who drink
:49:15. > :49:18.alcohol to excess. We are storing up a generation of problems where young
:49:19. > :49:23.people feel it is the social norm to preload before you go out to social
:49:24. > :49:29.events. We have been talking about that problems within our accident
:49:30. > :49:34.and emergency wards in particular but let us talk in general. How much
:49:35. > :49:38.of the problem is alcohol directly linked to the waiting times and
:49:39. > :49:45.problems in accident and emergency departments? Eight out of every ten
:49:46. > :49:57.attendances are directly related to alcohol. Eight in every ten? Eight
:49:58. > :50:00.in every ten at weekends and late into the evenings. I found that
:50:01. > :50:09.statistic absolutely astonishing. You think of peak times at
:50:10. > :50:12.weekends, eight out of every ten patients in A are alcohol related,
:50:13. > :50:21.now tell me you should have the freedom to choose. Eight out of ten,
:50:22. > :50:26.and you want people to be able to do what every -- whatever they want.
:50:27. > :50:32.and I would have bought eight out of ten would have learned their lesson
:50:33. > :50:37.the next day, hopefully. They are teenagers, they clicked too much,
:50:38. > :50:45.they wake up with the worst hangover ever, most people do wake up and
:50:46. > :50:50.behave properly. But we are paying for it. And people there through no
:50:51. > :50:54.fault of their own art waiting. And we are all sitting back and saying,
:50:55. > :51:03.some of us are laughing about it, it doesn't matter. That statistic goes
:51:04. > :51:07.my mind. Eight out of ten. it doesn't take into account that
:51:08. > :51:12.drinkers paid ?12 billion a year in taxation of the drinking and
:51:13. > :51:17.supposedly it costs ?2 billion to treat people, so the state is
:51:18. > :51:26.getting a return of six to one. Some people are irresponsible. Biking
:51:27. > :51:31.your finger and making drinking more expensive is not necessarily make
:51:32. > :51:41.these people behave any better. -- wagging your finger. In Sweden, the
:51:42. > :51:48.Draconian laws, you cannot buy any alcohol stronger than 2.8% after six
:51:49. > :51:55.o'clock in the evening... They are targeting people who are harmful
:51:56. > :51:59.drinkers. Having a minimum price, you make it more expensive for
:52:00. > :52:03.people who are abusing alcohol, it doesn't affect the vast bulk of
:52:04. > :52:13.people and it doesn't affect the prices in the bars, it is the very
:52:14. > :52:19.cheap alcohol... Reality contradicts that. In Norway, Finland, Denmark,
:52:20. > :52:24.alcohol is extremely expensive. There are still people who binge
:52:25. > :52:28.drink there. To suggest that you can add hook a binge drinker by
:52:29. > :52:34.increasing the minimum price is not very logical. Watch worth doing is
:52:35. > :52:43.damning all moderate drinkers, they are being punished. On the price of
:52:44. > :52:52.alcohol issue, it is cheaper than it has been. And consumption has
:52:53. > :52:56.dropped! I am a nondrinker and I think people from you drink should
:52:57. > :53:00.have to pay for the privilege because the alcohol problem is and
:53:01. > :53:13.issue in society, and issue in society, I would like to see taxes
:53:14. > :53:22.taken from alcohol, taking taxes that pay for the fuel from my car
:53:23. > :53:27.and put on alcohol. Rather than raise the minimum price of alcohol,
:53:28. > :53:34.why not introduce a levy for someone who chooses the emergency services
:53:35. > :53:42.in A? So if someone is seriously ill and can't afford to pay? No, if
:53:43. > :53:48.someone is seriously drunk. The majority of young people between 18
:53:49. > :53:50.and 24, the number of them drinking excessively in the last six years,
:53:51. > :54:31.it has fallen. There are your facts, it is why it, it is dangerous, but
:54:32. > :54:40.we cannot sit here sitting holier than thou, and say why do these
:54:41. > :54:44.people do that? Start again. If you want to stop people who were over
:54:45. > :54:53.drinking, you would stop letting people in the clubs when they are
:54:54. > :55:00.drunk and stop serving them drinks. But they will go into off-licences,
:55:01. > :55:06.they are preloading. Have you got drunk? Guess I have. But if I was
:55:07. > :55:11.prevented from going into a club or if I wasn't served a drink, I
:55:12. > :55:21.wouldn't do it again. If you can't go anywhere, you won't do it. You
:55:22. > :55:31.lost your son following a drink -- a drinking binge, what do you think of
:55:32. > :55:35.these drinking promotions? I think the government need to get involved,
:55:36. > :55:44.building more hospitals for people that are getting drunk and drunk
:55:45. > :55:51.every week. That is what I think. I see the clubs are selling 90p
:55:52. > :55:55.drinks. It is actually going down. There is a lot of focus on one
:55:56. > :55:59.particular club. There is nothing that hasn't happened in that in
:56:00. > :56:06.every town in Northern Ireland, it just happened in a fairly large
:56:07. > :56:21.scale that other night. There is an issue here with young people and
:56:22. > :56:27.saying they should not be let in. Alcohol is cheaper now than it has
:56:28. > :56:33.been for decades. Surely, it is about teaching young people they
:56:34. > :56:47.don't need to get drunk. How did you do that? And education system,
:56:48. > :56:50.trading skills. I think parents have a fundamental responsibility to
:56:51. > :56:56.ensure that young people have an understanding of the damage alcohol
:56:57. > :57:01.can do. The fact of the matter is, kids really today are no different
:57:02. > :57:04.to the way they were when you and I were young. There is a parental
:57:05. > :57:10.response that he and their business and responsibility in the individual
:57:11. > :57:17.as well. On the minimum alcohol pricing, you put a minimum price on
:57:18. > :57:22.alcohol, it will hit those who don't have much money in their pockets the
:57:23. > :57:27.hardest, are we seriously suggesting the middle classes don't have a
:57:28. > :57:33.drinking problem? And indeed the upper classes? Some of them are.
:57:34. > :57:37.Absolutely. It is a cause and effect. The bottom line is is if you
:57:38. > :57:41.do the crease the price of alcohol, which is what we have done over the
:57:42. > :57:50.last few decades, consumption goes up. It has fallen. And you are
:57:51. > :57:56.saying it is going up? It is going down. Hence why I am arguing for a
:57:57. > :58:03.minimum price. We're only talking about three or 4% of the alcohol
:58:04. > :58:08.sold in supermarkets today. It affects the people with the least
:58:09. > :58:15.income. You drive people into poverty, how is that a good result?
:58:16. > :58:20.We have 20 seconds left, let's continue this discussion on Twitter
:58:21. > :58:24.right now. Tomorrow morning, you will hear the full interview from
:58:25. > :58:32.the Chief Medical Officer on BBC Radio Ulster, tomorrow morning at
:58:33. > :58:34.9am. Right now, give our guests around of applause. Thank you for
:58:35. > :58:38.watching. Goodbye.