:00:07. > :00:13.We are back, live on BBC One and here is what we have got. The high
:00:14. > :00:22.court handling of the loyalist protest, has an impossible job got
:00:23. > :00:28.even harder? Gay marriage - Stormont says no again as Northern Ireland is
:00:29. > :00:32.about to go its own way. This is something that is already legal in
:00:33. > :00:37.the rest of the UK and not yet here for some reason only known to the
:00:38. > :00:44.DUP. Gary Barlow described her voice as incredible, Sam Bailey will be
:00:45. > :00:47.singing live in this studio tonight. And Belfast boxing star Carl
:00:48. > :00:48.Frampton is on the brink of the world
:00:49. > :00:52.Frampton is on the brink of the tonight with his manager, Barry
:00:53. > :00:56.McGuigan. And we tonight with his manager, Barry
:00:57. > :01:32.opponent to take him on. We start tonight with breaking news.
:01:33. > :01:37.Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams has been arrested in connection with the
:01:38. > :01:41.1972 murder of mother of ten Jean McConville. He presented himself to
:01:42. > :01:50.the police the seasoning and was arrested. Here is what he said about
:01:51. > :01:58.the case. Brendan Hughes alleged there was only one man who gave the
:01:59. > :02:06.order for that murder. Batman is the head of Sinn Fein. That is what
:02:07. > :02:11.Brendan Hughes said. Did you give the order for the execution of Jean
:02:12. > :02:14.McConville? I had no active part to play in either the abduction, the
:02:15. > :02:19.killing or the burial of Jean McConville or any of these other
:02:20. > :02:25.individuals and Brendan was telling lies. Jean McConville was a
:02:26. > :02:31.37-year-old widow, abducted from her West Belfast home and shot dead by
:02:32. > :02:37.the IRA. Gerry Kelly, what is your reaction? Gerry Adams said if you
:02:38. > :02:41.weeks ago that he would talk to the police and offer to talk to the
:02:42. > :02:47.police and he has done that and I have to say it is gratuitous that he
:02:48. > :02:56.has been arrested, he went there of his free world. What is gratuitous?
:02:57. > :03:01.There was no reason to arrest him. How do you know? Because I know. If
:03:02. > :03:07.someone goes to the police station and is immediately arrested, that is
:03:08. > :03:14.the wrong way to deal with that. He is the one who offered to talk to
:03:15. > :03:18.the police. My thoughts are with the family because this rings back the
:03:19. > :03:23.memories of the loss of her mother and I welcome this development, it
:03:24. > :03:27.shows that nobody is above the law and Gerry Adams, that arrest will be
:03:28. > :03:31.welcomed by a lot of people. A lot of people felt that Sinn Fein
:03:32. > :03:34.leaders were not going to be arrested for crimes they may have
:03:35. > :03:40.committed and the First Minister this week said that if the evidence
:03:41. > :03:44.is there, people should be arrested and ultimately charged, if the
:03:45. > :03:48.evidence stacks up so I hope it does not end with Gerry Adams. If
:03:49. > :03:51.evidence comes against Martin McGuinness and he needs to be
:03:52. > :03:55.arrested, he should be and brought before the courts. They need to be
:03:56. > :04:01.held accountable for crimes they may have committed. These are the people
:04:02. > :04:06.you are in government with? That is correct and we went into government
:04:07. > :04:09.knowing full well the history when it comes to Sinn Fein
:04:10. > :04:14.representatives but that does not change but what we have always made
:04:15. > :04:18.clear is if anyone committed any offence, regardless of who they
:04:19. > :04:22.are... You should not call anyone guilty unless they find guilty by a
:04:23. > :04:26.court of law and you are bringing Martin McGuinness into this, the
:04:27. > :04:29.Deputy First Minister, the man who parades around with your own First
:04:30. > :04:37.Minister, Peter Robinson, around the world. Arrest him for what? If he is
:04:38. > :04:41.ever investigated for crimes that may well have been committed under
:04:42. > :04:45.his watch, he is a self-confessed IRA commander and if there is
:04:46. > :04:50.evidence, he should be investigated and that leads to arrest, he should
:04:51. > :04:53.be arrested. That is why we said there should be no amnesty, no
:04:54. > :04:57.surprise that Sinn Fein campaign for an amnesty because they knew the day
:04:58. > :05:02.would come when the ghosts would catch up with their wicked crimes.
:05:03. > :05:08.Sinn Fein have never campaigned for any amnesty and the record is there
:05:09. > :05:13.and if he stayed with the Haass talks, you would have known we have
:05:14. > :05:17.argued for the truth process and an international truth process plus the
:05:18. > :05:22.fact that people go through the courts, they can do that. You were
:05:23. > :05:28.the ones who rejected that. You would be very happy going into the
:05:29. > :05:32.selection that if every leader in Sinn Fein was arrested and that is
:05:33. > :05:36.not going to happen. Go to the election, the people, and we will
:05:37. > :05:43.see what happens. A respective of the election... The fact that this
:05:44. > :05:52.has happened, not to the election, it can be more than coincidence. It
:05:53. > :05:57.has been badly timed. Are you suggesting this is deliberate? I am
:05:58. > :06:02.so busy adjusting that it is ordered, to say the least, that this
:06:03. > :06:06.is happening as Gerry Adams is campaigning. I'm being very strict
:06:07. > :06:12.about this, at the time and Gerry Adams is the most popular leader in
:06:13. > :06:16.Ireland. Does that mean Gerry Adams is above to process? You have said
:06:17. > :06:21.he should not have been arrested, it was on timely. It might not be the
:06:22. > :06:26.way that Sinn Fein want business to be carried out. We are talking about
:06:27. > :06:31.the way the police do that and I was questioned under caution not so long
:06:32. > :06:34.ago but I was not arrested. That is the way you do it, I went to the
:06:35. > :06:39.police tension and I was questioned under caution and that is a simple
:06:40. > :06:46.way to do this. There is no reason that could not have been done now.
:06:47. > :06:54.Someone made the decision, and you are criticising the PPS. The PPS
:06:55. > :06:57.made its choice and I would agree with you only on this, that it
:06:58. > :07:02.should be consistent and nobody is above the law. In this instance, I
:07:03. > :07:07.believe the timing of this and the fact that it is coming into the
:07:08. > :07:14.election, that has significance. Let us move on. The police chief has
:07:15. > :07:18.this irritated legal and sometimes violent loyalist Flag protests, that
:07:19. > :07:23.is a verdict of a High Court judge on the PSNI this week. This could
:07:24. > :07:27.have massive implications on policing, parades and protests.
:07:28. > :07:34.Gerry Kelly, let us start with you on this. How do you read this
:07:35. > :07:39.judgement and the implications for how policing should occur in
:07:40. > :07:44.Northern Ireland in the future? The judgement is emphatic and every go
:07:45. > :07:48.to the beginning of this on December 2012 and I spoke on a number of
:07:49. > :07:52.locations and we did meetings with the Chief Constable and others and
:07:53. > :08:01.we said they were facilitating parades and the judge has said
:08:02. > :08:03.exactly that was the truth. They argued that there was some confusion
:08:04. > :08:09.in the law and there was no confusion. These were illegal
:08:10. > :08:13.parades and I understood that and the head of the Parades Commission
:08:14. > :08:17.understood that, Peter Osborne, and indeed they try to push this onto
:08:18. > :08:22.the Parades Commission. In fact, he said, as we did, any parade is
:08:23. > :08:27.supposed to be applied for and therefore it should be dealt with as
:08:28. > :08:30.a legal. Clearly, what the police are trying to do is look at the big
:08:31. > :08:35.picture and what would happen if they moved in to try to block any
:08:36. > :08:37.parade or make arrests on the day and that took an operational
:08:38. > :08:44.decision to make some of those arrests later on. Let us look at the
:08:45. > :08:47.practical example. I am waiting for you to say that you expect arrests
:08:48. > :08:53.to happen immediately! Let us do with this, what this was about,
:08:54. > :08:58.about parades every Saturday passed the Short Strand, which the police
:08:59. > :09:03.could have stopped and they were illegal and you say, why would they
:09:04. > :09:06.not? Because was violence, the people in the Short Strand, the
:09:07. > :09:14.residents deserve to be protected and they were not. That is the fact.
:09:15. > :09:19.Are you saying that they should not protect them? That is interesting
:09:20. > :09:23.because the Chief Constable went to a Westminster committee, the
:09:24. > :09:27.Northern Ireland committee, and he said his fear was he might have had
:09:28. > :09:33.to deal with 2000 or 10,000 or 20,000 so he is succumbing to the
:09:34. > :09:38.fact that there might have been more violence. He is being realistic. He
:09:39. > :09:43.is not, are you saying that because someone threatens or in his view, he
:09:44. > :09:47.thinks this might have increased, that is a reason to allow the people
:09:48. > :09:54.of the Short Strand to be attacked? Just to be clear, you want the
:09:55. > :09:57.police... Matt Baggott apologised, he apologised to the people of the
:09:58. > :10:03.Short Strand because it did not protect them. He says he will appeal
:10:04. > :10:08.this and use tax payers money and it is a waste of time to overcome this.
:10:09. > :10:19.What Canon, plastic bullets, you want the police to go in like that?
:10:20. > :10:24.-- what Canon. -- water. You have but the answer in the question.
:10:25. > :10:24.would have been able to have happened
:10:25. > :10:34.would have been able to have independence of the
:10:35. > :10:34.would have been able to have totally erroneous. This action was
:10:35. > :10:40.taken after the police did what they did over a period of three months
:10:41. > :10:45.and this is a judgement upon that. The Policing Board does the same
:10:46. > :10:49.thing. I cannot argue that we would interfere with the independence of
:10:50. > :10:52.police operations, you have the right afterwards to say this is
:10:53. > :10:58.wrong, or even when the process is going on, say, you are wrong in
:10:59. > :11:02.doing this. We are using those exact words from that judgement, the
:11:03. > :11:06.police are facilitating these illegal parades. This is a damning
:11:07. > :11:11.indictment of the police. It is hugely critical but this is the
:11:12. > :11:15.initial trial judge, this is where the Court of Appeal, which is
:11:16. > :11:19.superior, and they will have to consider the evidence before them.
:11:20. > :11:24.Do you support the way the police handled this? I think the police
:11:25. > :11:28.were put under difficult circumstances and they need to have
:11:29. > :11:32.flexibility in dealing with that and often it is the lesser of two evils
:11:33. > :11:36.and that is a choice and the police need to be able to make because if
:11:37. > :11:45.they go in heavy-handed, that can inflame the situation and lead to
:11:46. > :11:50.worse outcomes. Do they stand back? They have to make a judgement as to
:11:51. > :11:54.what they can achieve and what ultimately will be the long-term
:11:55. > :11:59.benefit. They have taken this approach to gather the evidence and
:12:00. > :12:04.come after you. So people get away with breaking the
:12:05. > :12:08.law, then are punished afterwards? People can openly flout the law in
:12:09. > :12:15.this country, then maybe arrested later? That is essentially at the
:12:16. > :12:20.heart of this discussion? But that is a difference between a huge crowd
:12:21. > :12:23.or mob coming into our district, attacking the district, and in the
:12:24. > :12:28.case of many of these protests, there were three or four or five
:12:29. > :12:31.young people, running, standing in the street, clearly a difference
:12:32. > :12:40.between that, and the difficulty here is the decided to take inertia
:12:41. > :12:46.as a policy, not dealing with the three or four people optimistic, but
:12:47. > :12:49.in the earlier, when you had hundreds and possibly thousands
:12:50. > :12:54.coming down and who were at times violent, they decided to do nothing
:12:55. > :12:59.about that, that is what is wrong, not the argument that police cannot
:13:00. > :13:05.make a decision. The police cannot win, and need the flexibility to
:13:06. > :13:09.make a judgement call, I am concerned this constrains them to be
:13:10. > :13:14.able to handle situations that can be very volatile in an appropriate
:13:15. > :13:18.fashion, but if the judgement is upheld, the implications, not just
:13:19. > :13:21.the Loyalists, who need to uphold the law, and if they break the law,
:13:22. > :13:26.there will be consequences, no one is beyond the law. But in Republican
:13:27. > :13:35.areas, with illegal Republican parades, the police don't even put
:13:36. > :13:39.police officers into those areas, allowing Republicans to police
:13:40. > :13:47.themselves, and the police need to be in those areas, need to stop any
:13:48. > :13:51.criminal activity. There is a question about political leadership,
:13:52. > :13:54.and we can remind ourselves what was happening, Peter Robinson telling
:13:55. > :13:59.the protesters to stay off the streets, meanwhile some members of
:14:00. > :14:03.the DUP were the protesters, let us remind you of this, and that the
:14:04. > :14:08.police turned on those protesters, gone in there with a tough response,
:14:09. > :14:16.what with the DUP have said? Thanks in their own members, inside those
:14:17. > :14:19.protest? There were times when we were critical of how the police
:14:20. > :14:25.conducted themselves towards a lot of these protests, but occasions
:14:26. > :14:29.when police officers were calling me and saying, protesters taking
:14:30. > :14:34.place, we need you to be there and use your influence to keep people
:14:35. > :14:42.calm. And I went there and helped people calm. I told them they should
:14:43. > :14:46.not be blocking the roads, needed to clear the roads, helping to diffuse
:14:47. > :14:54.the situation. The man in the glasses? The police are dammed if
:14:55. > :14:59.they do, dammed if they don't, Gerry Kelly is head of the Policing Board,
:15:00. > :15:06.and he may not agree with me. But I would say that there was a potential
:15:07. > :15:10.for this to escalate across the whole province, if the police had
:15:11. > :15:16.been heavy-handed, but I'm glad that Mr Kelly is saying there should be
:15:17. > :15:20.heavier placing and the police should be farmer, because I would
:15:21. > :15:26.like to see this at the public and parades, when Dresden paramilitary
:15:27. > :15:33.guard, dressed with masks this week. -- when dressed in. I wonder if they
:15:34. > :15:44.can get photographs and identify those people. Alan Mains, what
:15:45. > :15:49.position does that put the pleasing? -- put the police in? We need to
:15:50. > :15:54.take the politics out of policing, they make decisions with the best
:15:55. > :15:58.possible information given the circumstances, and maybe a year 16
:15:59. > :16:03.months later, a judge in the comfort of the courts there is they have
:16:04. > :16:08.done it wrong, basically. I do not think anyone anticipated two years
:16:09. > :16:13.ago what would happen, and I think the police, I believe, dealt with it
:16:14. > :16:17.as best as they could without escalation. Before five people Jerry
:16:18. > :16:22.talks about standing on a corner, women and children would become five
:16:23. > :16:29.or 6000 had the police done something. With the police have
:16:30. > :16:34.enough resources when something is kicking off to move in, not watch
:16:35. > :16:40.and make arrests later? We must go back in time and they openly did not
:16:41. > :16:44.have the resources to deal with it, and will go on record to say that,
:16:45. > :16:49.they do not have the army as they did in previous times, did not have
:16:50. > :16:54.mutual aid, did not have been trained in riot situations. He is
:16:55. > :17:01.saying exactly what Matt Baggott said. If you had gone over to four
:17:02. > :17:05.or five people, and incidentally some of the police on the ground
:17:06. > :17:11.were seeing this to us, simply go over and say, you have ten minutes,
:17:12. > :17:21.we need you to move off the street, had that turned -- hide a good time
:17:22. > :17:27.then to five 6000 is beyond me. -- how that would turn into five or
:17:28. > :17:31.6000 is beyond me. I repeat what I said earlier. There is an absolute
:17:32. > :17:37.difference between border five people, blocking the street, not
:17:38. > :17:42.causing difficulty, and hundreds of people coming down who were going
:17:43. > :17:49.through an area they knew was an interface and we're there would be
:17:50. > :17:52.trouble. If there were a Republican sitting in the middle of the road in
:17:53. > :17:59.protest, are you telling the police to move in and move them off that
:18:00. > :18:06.road? I have said this on different occasions, about a blanket judgement
:18:07. > :18:14.about the police making a different decision on five people, I find it
:18:15. > :18:23.people... But if it is Republicans? I knew you would do this. So you
:18:24. > :18:33.should have had an ants. -- had an ansa. So the police might have
:18:34. > :18:37.discretion? Of course they do. Let me tell you this, I do not know why
:18:38. > :18:42.I have to repeat this, there is a difference between
:18:43. > :18:43.I have to repeat this, there is a information about for a five people
:18:44. > :18:47.blocking a road, and information about for a five people
:18:48. > :18:51.later and dealing with that issue, because they may not have the
:18:52. > :18:55.manpower, and protecting our district, an enclave of people where
:18:56. > :19:00.there are hundreds, sometimes thousands, coming down and there
:19:01. > :19:04.could be violence. No one is arguing about that. Let us be clear, you
:19:05. > :19:11.could repeat this ten times, about that. Let us be clear, you
:19:12. > :19:19.they believe to be the right thing for all people. And can be wrong.
:19:20. > :19:23.they believe to be the right thing They protect life and people, call
:19:24. > :19:28.it as they see it, and the judge can decree something else, the police
:19:29. > :19:35.are big enough to say that that flags see that. -- the police are
:19:36. > :19:44.big enough to see that. The lady at the back. The people on the
:19:45. > :19:49.Newtownards Road a attack, even on Easter Monday, you see it on
:19:50. > :19:54.television when the parades are coming back, people attacked, so you
:19:55. > :20:00.should not sit there and say hi Innocent people are, because they
:20:01. > :20:09.are not, and they can be the ones instigating it. And you are sitting
:20:10. > :20:15.there saying they are not. We should not label an entire district, should
:20:16. > :20:19.we? We should not say they are innocent, and they can be the ones
:20:20. > :20:26.causing the problems. I have seen it myself, when one parade was
:20:27. > :20:30.attacked, not one person was lifted, it was on YouTube, showing you the
:20:31. > :20:38.faces of people throwing paint bombs, babies, old men, women
:20:39. > :20:45.enjoyed, for what? Why are they not being held accountable? It was not
:20:46. > :20:52.all of Short Strand. The young man up year, go ahead. One main point I
:20:53. > :20:56.will make is obviously the police were heavy-handed with even
:20:57. > :20:59.protesters who were not doing anything wrong at the end of the
:21:00. > :21:04.day, and the police still being heavy-handed, keeping on pushing and
:21:05. > :21:09.pushing, making everyone walk away. No one wanted to walk away. They
:21:10. > :21:17.wanted to stand there believing what they believe in. You spoke about
:21:18. > :21:26.Short Strand. Some president areas are tightly and night. -- Protestant
:21:27. > :21:28.areas. You willing to take responsibility for the lack of
:21:29. > :21:33.leadership that leaves the police in the middle, you cannot find
:21:34. > :21:39.compromise, cannot work it out, then the police are left in the middle?
:21:40. > :21:45.Getting battered? The police again are dammed if they do, dammed if
:21:46. > :21:55.they don't. Whose fault is that? Your fault? Other politicians'? When
:21:56. > :22:01.walking past Short Strand, those people should not be subject to
:22:02. > :22:09.attacks. Politicians cannot agree, that has something to do with the
:22:10. > :22:14.DUP and other parties? Sinn Fein have moved to a cultural campaign
:22:15. > :22:17.and if they respect cultures, tensions will not be raised, which
:22:18. > :22:23.they go out of their way to raise and get hackles up. Sinn Fein would
:22:24. > :22:27.be the last people -- the first people to criticise the police if
:22:28. > :22:31.they went into the Short Strand so the people parading past were not
:22:32. > :22:35.subject to attacks, the first to say that was over the top, the police
:22:36. > :22:42.should have allowed space, but when it comes to Loyalist, the police
:22:43. > :22:47.need to not hold back, but take a softly, softly approach in
:22:48. > :22:53.Republican areas. I did not say this should we then anywhere. Most people
:22:54. > :22:58.listening, 100 police officers injured during that time, not just
:22:59. > :23:04.by standing by, but proactively trying to withhold and hold the rule
:23:05. > :23:14.of law, so let's be that in mind, the 700 arrests that followed, let's
:23:15. > :23:20.be that in mind. Final word. He is right and we should be that in mind.
:23:21. > :23:26.I am for proper policing and I am on the Policing Board for that purpose.
:23:27. > :23:31.But your position is not at risk because of the odd timing of the
:23:32. > :23:40.arrest of Gerry Adams? Why should I consider it? You still support them?
:23:41. > :23:46.We are on the board to hold them to account. You are right, but taking a
:23:47. > :23:50.particular incident, and I was trying to say that was okayed. If
:23:51. > :23:59.the police act wrongly, it is right to criticise them. And they are big
:24:00. > :24:06.enough to take that. Matt Baggott has taken it on the chin, he has
:24:07. > :24:14.apologised. He is appealing it, has criticised criminal justice
:24:15. > :24:17.Inspectorate ports, and he had -- cruel justice Inspectorate ports, he
:24:18. > :24:24.is more famous for refusing criticism than he is for taking it.
:24:25. > :24:31.Very unfair. Please give our guests round of applause. Lots to talk
:24:32. > :24:38.about tonight. I have no doubt that plenty of you in the audience will
:24:39. > :24:51.be keen to join the debate. There is the number. If you are treating as,
:24:52. > :25:04.you can do that, here are the details. -- if you are tweeting us.
:25:05. > :25:08.Now, my next guest is on his way to superstardom in the world of boxing.
:25:09. > :25:14.Earlier this month, he saw off Hugo Cazares inside two rounds in front
:25:15. > :25:17.of a packed home crowd in Belfast. That leaves the way clear to
:25:18. > :25:20.challenge Santa Cruz for the world super-bantamweight title. Take a
:25:21. > :25:28.look at this. A nice little one two from Hugo
:25:29. > :25:36.Cazares. My gosh! Brilliant left-hand! Superb punch from
:25:37. > :25:47.Frampton! Hugo Cazares can't believe it! He has been counted out! He has
:25:48. > :25:53.stopped him! He got it wrong. He was listening to their kind and has been
:25:54. > :25:58.counted out. -- listening to the count. He's here with his manager.
:25:59. > :26:21.It's Carl Frampton and Barry McGuigan. CHEERING. That was some
:26:22. > :26:28.reception! Thank you very much! I believe you have some fantastic
:26:29. > :26:45.news? My wife, Christine, is pregnant! I just find out. That is
:26:46. > :26:54.the scan. 12 weeks. I am going to have to blame this man for this!
:26:55. > :26:59.Really? ! All of the training camps, back at home. In between fights.
:27:00. > :27:09.That is what has caused that! I am pleased. That is really special. Not
:27:10. > :27:15.your first? No, I have a daughter, Carla, she is three. Lovely kid,
:27:16. > :27:22.very nice, getting cheeky but that is good. We can see your daughter on
:27:23. > :27:28.screen in a second. In the world of boxing it always strikes me that
:27:29. > :27:33.here you have all of the dangers that is often talked about and then
:27:34. > :27:35.you have this family life. You are a daddy and soon for a second time.
:27:36. > :27:41.Look at that. Does that bring daddy and soon for a second time.
:27:42. > :27:48.home to you the danger that your sport has? It does, it is a
:27:49. > :27:55.dangerous sport. You go in there and my last fight, the first time I ever
:27:56. > :28:02.had to do it, I had to sign a form for the WBC, that if anything
:28:03. > :28:10.happened to me, who gets the purse. It is a dangerous sport. But there
:28:11. > :28:15.are rules and stuff. How do you handle that in your mind? You do not
:28:16. > :28:21.think about it and it is few and far between, injuries, but there are
:28:22. > :28:27.also injuries and other sports. Does your wife worry about you? As the
:28:28. > :28:34.fights get more important, she does. What does she say? She is watching
:28:35. > :28:42.the fights and at the ringside she is watching through her fingers. She
:28:43. > :28:47.cries a lot. Barry, his family and other people have to put their arms
:28:48. > :28:53.around her. That is the bit I did not think about. The wife of a
:28:54. > :28:59.boxer. And the worrying. That would be very natural? It is the only
:29:00. > :29:07.sport where you can kill someone. There is the gorgeous girl. Fabulous
:29:08. > :29:11.girl. And she handles and very well but each fight becomes more
:29:12. > :29:16.important and there is more pressure and the significance is greater and
:29:17. > :29:24.greater and we are at the pinnacle, right at the very top. And this kid
:29:25. > :29:30.is sensational. How good is he? One of the best fighters I have ever
:29:31. > :29:34.seen. Why? I just see him in training and I watch him and I know
:29:35. > :29:40.what he does and if he can reproduce a deeper centre that, that is
:29:41. > :29:44.phenomenal, this stuff he does. And I have been in this game for a long
:29:45. > :29:48.time and I have seen hundreds and thousands of amateurs who never
:29:49. > :29:53.quite made it professionally. It is just the stuff he does, his punches,
:29:54. > :29:58.the power and the ability, going back and forward, his speed and
:29:59. > :30:06.intelligence and he is a very nice kid, that is the bonus. Most boxers
:30:07. > :30:13.who are very talented are pretty skittish. And volatile. Would you be
:30:14. > :30:19.jealous of him? You wish it was still view? You had his youth and
:30:20. > :30:33.you were landing the sponges) he wishes he had my hair! -- be
:30:34. > :30:38.punches. No, we all, in fact, everybody who comes to watch him, he
:30:39. > :30:42.lives their life vicariously. They want to see him doing well and that
:30:43. > :30:46.is the most amazing thing about this kid and for all of the fighters that
:30:47. > :30:50.have come between me and him, over the years, I do not think anybody
:30:51. > :30:56.has got the sort of response this kid has got. They really love him
:30:57. > :31:01.and they want to see him doing well. They live every minute and second
:31:02. > :31:07.with him. I saw the where the Belfast crowd had just packed out
:31:08. > :31:15.the arena here in the capital city and we will see this in a second.
:31:16. > :31:19.Just watch this. Just the atmosphere at home that was created in Northern
:31:20. > :31:25.Ireland. And this is a crowd united, both communities. This is what you
:31:26. > :31:33.are doing in Northern Ireland? What does it feel like? Honestly, it is
:31:34. > :31:39.amazing, I love it. I never expected that I would ever get that big and
:31:40. > :31:44.I'm still not a world champion yet. I am just trying to imagine winning
:31:45. > :31:51.the world title and coming back home to defend that. It is amazing. What
:31:52. > :31:57.are the chances of getting that major fight here in Northern
:31:58. > :32:04.Ireland? That will be difficult. We are against it because we're still
:32:05. > :32:10.in the negotiating phase but we have heard that possibly Santa Cruz is
:32:11. > :32:14.not as keen as he was and after that left hook, that he not died Hugo
:32:15. > :32:22.Cazares with, he would not be as keen. He was very keen before the
:32:23. > :32:31.fight. Checking? I do not think so but he is thinking more carefully.
:32:32. > :32:35.This is mandatory, so he has to fight him. We were hoping it would
:32:36. > :32:41.be sooner but if it is not within nine months, he has to give up his
:32:42. > :32:45.belt. What is your message to him? I will not call anybody out, he knows
:32:46. > :32:50.that I want to fight him and that is all that needs to be said. That is
:32:51. > :32:57.pretty lightweight. It is not lightweight! Don't pick on me! That
:32:58. > :33:03.will happen later on. He said before the fight that he desperately wanted
:33:04. > :33:12.to fight because this is the most exciting fight of any of these super
:33:13. > :33:17.bantamweight fighters. Carl Frampton and Santa Cruz, that is the best
:33:18. > :33:21.combination of styles and all of the fans of the game, they can see this,
:33:22. > :33:25.the most exciting fight in this division. Why could we not wring
:33:26. > :33:29.something like that coming to Northern Ireland? We have seen that
:33:30. > :33:36.with the golf and the cycling. Why not here? Boxing is most popular,
:33:37. > :33:45.successful sport that this has ever had. By a country mile. -- that this
:33:46. > :33:55.country. The government, are you listening? Give me a hand. It is
:33:56. > :33:59.difficult for them. It is an individual sport and I don't want to
:34:00. > :34:03.give them any excuse but it is difficult so we just want to get him
:34:04. > :34:08.over here to fight. It looks highly unlikely we can get the fight back
:34:09. > :34:15.here. Are you obsessed by him? Everyday when training? Not really,
:34:16. > :34:30.when training I am usually thinking about my next meal, really! Tell me
:34:31. > :34:35.about it! When I am eating, I'm thinking about the next meal! But I
:34:36. > :34:44.am not obsessed, I want to fight Santa Cruz, he has to fight me at
:34:45. > :34:58.some point. Will you be Tim? 100%. -- beat him. Do you know what? I
:34:59. > :35:04.really hope that Barry McGuigan is right, I hope that you go all the
:35:05. > :35:08.way. And I can tell, I have been at this for awhile, and when walks out
:35:09. > :35:12.there, the result was applause but sometimes there is that little extra
:35:13. > :35:18.run from the crowd and you will know this, what that is about is star
:35:19. > :35:21.quality. You have got it. And the people of Northern Ireland are
:35:22. > :35:41.behind you and we hope you go all the way. Thank you very much. Thank
:35:42. > :35:47.you. Right. Just before you go, we have a little bit of a surprise for
:35:48. > :35:59.you because we have lined up a mystery challenger for Carl Frampton
:36:00. > :36:07.later on. Are you up for it? Yes. That is coming up later on. Bring it
:36:08. > :36:13.on! Stay watching. Please show your appreciation one more time for Ari
:36:14. > :36:29.McGuigan and Carl Frampton! -- Barry McGuigan. Thank you. Right... Still
:36:30. > :36:36.to come... You had over 1 million votes! How do you feel? We have a
:36:37. > :36:51.stunning performance from X Factor winner Sam Bailey. Right. The second
:36:52. > :36:54.debate. Yesterday, same-sex marriage was rejected by the Stormont
:36:55. > :36:55.Assembly for the third time within 18 months. 51 MLAs
:36:56. > :37:01.Assembly for the third time within voted yes. Disappointment for those
:37:02. > :37:05.who were lobbying our politicians to support the change. Here's what some
:37:06. > :37:23.equal marriage protestors had to say in Belfast earlier this week. Equal
:37:24. > :37:26.marriage, yes we will. England and Scotland have passed an even better
:37:27. > :37:33.bill and it is time Northern Ireland stepped up to the plate. For more
:37:34. > :37:36.people to be getting married is a great thing, celebrating love and
:37:37. > :37:43.stability and the joy that people have. I just find it upsetting that
:37:44. > :37:50.Northern Ireland is taking one step backwards. I am not able to get
:37:51. > :37:55.married in May own country, I would have to go to England or Scotland.
:37:56. > :38:02.The DUP would have me believe that I am already in the UK, so why would I
:38:03. > :38:05.have to go there to get married? I am gay and at the time civil
:38:06. > :38:10.partnership came in, I thought this is not good enough. There needs to
:38:11. > :38:15.be equality on this. I want the right to be available here. We
:38:16. > :38:21.believe in the institution of marriage and we want to get married.
:38:22. > :38:24.More and more, Northern Ireland is getting a reputation for being godly
:38:25. > :38:32.and I am embarrassed sometimes when I go on holiday and tell people
:38:33. > :38:35.where I am from. People will go to the polls knowing that some
:38:36. > :38:49.politicians here do not want to fight for the policy for equality
:38:50. > :38:56.between two people. Equal marriage! Lots of use will be coming into the
:38:57. > :39:04.programme. All of the details are coming up. Catriona Ruane, the
:39:05. > :39:14.Assembly has voted this down three times. Sinn Fein brought this motion
:39:15. > :39:17.two days ago. It was to ensure that there was equality for all citizens
:39:18. > :39:22.here in the North. You knew that you were going to lose this? It was not
:39:23. > :39:30.to enter anything? We hoped that the Assembly would support equality for
:39:31. > :39:36.the gay community. They did not. The DUP used a petition of concern to
:39:37. > :39:39.block it and I think it is absolutely disgraceful. I will tell
:39:40. > :39:45.you why... We have six ministers from the DUP. Five ministers and one
:39:46. > :39:55.junior minister and they have a responsibility under the law, under
:39:56. > :39:57.this, and one of them is for sexual orientation equality and the
:39:58. > :40:01.minister who is responsible for jobs, trade, enterprise and
:40:02. > :40:07.investment is speaking out against equality. She includes you, Arlene
:40:08. > :40:11.Foster? I would expect that but this is not about equality and that has
:40:12. > :40:15.been recognised by the United Nations, Europe and our own human
:40:16. > :40:20.rights commission, this is not about equality. And I will not take
:40:21. > :40:24.lectures about equality on human rights from Catriona Ruane, an
:40:25. > :40:29.apologist for an organisation that engaged in the abduction of Jean
:40:30. > :40:42.McConville, took them away, from her ten children... Are you going to
:40:43. > :40:48.allow libellous comments like that? She is talking about the IRA. You
:40:49. > :40:53.can respond. What Arlene Foster is doing is deflecting from the fact
:40:54. > :40:56.that their own party have been against gay and all of the different
:40:57. > :41:03.issues that have come before the Assembly, her Health Minister...
:41:04. > :41:09.They have squandered money. Defending the indefensible. ?100,000
:41:10. > :41:17.to date on the court cases, appealing court cases. Using our own
:41:18. > :41:20.money. The money of the people here. It is incorrect about what she said
:41:21. > :41:26.about equality because this is an equality issue. If you read what the
:41:27. > :41:33.equality commission said... It said this is an equality issue. The gay
:41:34. > :41:41.and lesbian committee should get equality. Tell gay people either in
:41:42. > :41:47.this audience or at home why they cannot marry the people be loved?
:41:48. > :41:54.Legal recognition of their relationships was given and civil
:41:55. > :42:02.partnerships. And you did pose that? Just for clarity. And if you
:42:03. > :42:09.could, you would reverse it? No, that is what the law is now. You
:42:10. > :42:19.accept civil partnerships? Yes. What we are saying is... So you were
:42:20. > :42:23.wrong at the time? We were not. In relation to marriage, I am standing
:42:24. > :42:29.up for the definition of marriage, which is a bollard to the union
:42:30. > :42:32.between a man and a woman, a complementary union that is there
:42:33. > :42:37.for the good of all of society. I am standing up for marriage, I am
:42:38. > :42:42.standing up for marriage, and in terms of equality, she very quickly
:42:43. > :42:47.brushed away the issue that I brought up in relation to Jean
:42:48. > :42:50.McConville, but I am glad there will be equality in terms of Jean
:42:51. > :42:55.McConville, no matter who was involved in her murder and
:42:56. > :42:59.disappearance, that they will be brought to justice. Can we stick to
:43:00. > :43:06.this issue. That is an important issue that we need to address.
:43:07. > :43:13.People will want to talk about this. For example, this young man. From a
:43:14. > :43:17.Christian perspective, the Bible says God instituted marriage between
:43:18. > :43:24.one man and one woman. And in the beginning it was Adam and Eve, not
:43:25. > :43:27.Adam and Steve. So what gives Sinn Fein the right to propose this
:43:28. > :43:33.motion when God started the institution? This is the third time
:43:34. > :43:37.this debate has been brought up in the assembly. Why is the
:43:38. > :43:45.this debate has been brought up in Democratic... Will of the assembly?
:43:46. > :43:55.Yellow macro why is the Will not being respected? It is being
:43:56. > :43:57.respected. Three times, our LGBT communities were discriminated
:43:58. > :44:03.against and Sinn Fein will continue to bring motions to ensure equality
:44:04. > :44:09.and will make no apology for it. In relation to Christianity...
:44:10. > :44:11.and will make no apology for it. In I respect your right to hold
:44:12. > :44:15.and will make no apology for it. In but part of the motion we brought
:44:16. > :44:19.forward gives churches but part of the motion we brought
:44:20. > :44:22.define and practice marriage according to their beliefs,
:44:23. > :44:25.define and practice marriage we are and what we are supposed to
:44:26. > :44:33.be our legislators and we should legislate on the basis of equality.
:44:34. > :44:37.This young man at the front, Dean, and maybe you can in a nutshell,
:44:38. > :44:39.This young man at the front, Dean, knowing it is a long story, and you
:44:40. > :44:44.will be on the radio programme tomorrow, but you try to take your
:44:45. > :44:49.own life, because you did not feel... I did not feel accepted, did
:44:50. > :45:05.not feel I was normal. feel... I did not feel accepted, did
:45:06. > :45:10.disgusted people cannot marry. And what that man in the audience said
:45:11. > :45:15.about the Bible, and the Bible also said it did not remit and women to
:45:16. > :45:27.express authority, but you would have to stand down. CHEERING.
:45:28. > :45:32.So if you are going to that certain beliefs to suit your needs, it
:45:33. > :45:33.cannot be idle for one and a different one for anyone else and
:45:34. > :45:38.your slogan for the European different one for anyone else and
:45:39. > :45:41.election is, let's keep Northern Ireland moving forward, you should
:45:42. > :45:56.start, never mind keep it moving forward. Thank you for mentioning
:45:57. > :46:00.our last slogan... We are not getting into the European election
:46:01. > :46:07.slogan, don't! Let's address his issue. You know why we are not
:46:08. > :46:14.getting into this. It is my question, we have had enough from
:46:15. > :46:23.Catriona. I never mentioned the Bible. But a lot of your members do.
:46:24. > :46:32.People without faith believe in marriage. What would your problem
:46:33. > :46:42.be? I respect who you are. I respect you. We will not get married?
:46:43. > :46:44.LAUGHTER. I am already married. Go with me one second, take the heat
:46:45. > :47:26.out of this, and the point-scoring, you see is his place in this
:47:27. > :47:32.society, he wants to be equal and feels to get married would underline
:47:33. > :47:36.his equality? But the two are separate issues and we need a wider
:47:37. > :47:41.discussion about rights and about the rights of the LGBT communities.
:47:42. > :47:46.And I am up for that. But you need to understand as well how dear the
:47:47. > :47:51.institution of marriage is the people of faith and people of no
:47:52. > :47:57.faith. Because they believe in a complementary union between a man
:47:58. > :48:00.and a woman. But not every gay person would get married, they
:48:01. > :48:06.should be allowed the choice in 2014. All right. Here's what some of
:48:07. > :48:13.our MLAs who opposed the motion had to say. Marriage has only one
:48:14. > :48:20.definition. It is a lifelong commitment between one man and one
:48:21. > :48:27.woman. That has been the accepted position since the dawn of creation.
:48:28. > :48:35.It is not appropriate to the -- to brand those who oppose same-sex
:48:36. > :48:41.marriage as bigoted and backward, it is people of many faiths and they
:48:42. > :48:45.should not be lamb asked it. I do not believe there is widespread
:48:46. > :48:50.public support in Northern Ireland for such a proposal. Whilst I remain
:48:51. > :48:54.tolerant of the views and lifestyles of others, the same cannot be said
:48:55. > :48:58.of those who want to promote change of this nature to Christians, whose
:48:59. > :49:05.personal convictions put them at odds on an issue such as this. If a
:49:06. > :49:12.man says, I am in love with two women, is he in title -- entitled to
:49:13. > :49:17.have polygamous marriage? That equality embrace polygamy? Do we
:49:18. > :49:22.have to provide for everyone because that is their right? I am
:49:23. > :49:25.pro-marriage and profamily and believe we would go down the wrong
:49:26. > :49:30.road today if we believe we would go down the wrong
:49:31. > :49:40.such a fundamental institution. -- if we were. Lots of your views. This
:49:41. > :49:44.man here. The argument this man put across there, saying it was a
:49:45. > :49:51.dominion and Adam and Steve, what an embarrassing argument! -- saying it
:49:52. > :49:56.was Adam and Eve. Andy Ackerman is put forward by the DUP are the same
:49:57. > :50:03.arguments put forward in the 70s against interracial marriage. --
:50:04. > :50:12.arguments put forward. They look foolish and you look foolish.
:50:13. > :50:17.Someone at the very back. I am a Christian, but the Bible was written
:50:18. > :50:23.2000 years ago, and what happened 2000 years ago in that society, and
:50:24. > :50:33.we are not moving forward, quoting stuff from 2000 years ago! Reverend
:50:34. > :50:37.David McIlveen? The Bible carries the same principles we want to
:50:38. > :50:43.espouse and indoors for society. Thou shalt not kill, not steal, and
:50:44. > :50:48.so on, but Mrs Forster touched an important point and that marriage is
:50:49. > :50:51.not based on equality, but something more, based on a complementary
:50:52. > :51:00.relationship between husband and wife. We had a beautiful picture of
:51:01. > :51:07.Carol Frampton and his wife, and expecting child, which is what form
:51:08. > :51:10.society and marriage is the foundation for family life for the
:51:11. > :51:20.mutual health of society and comfort. -- Carl Frampton. I agree,
:51:21. > :51:26.we had a beautiful picture, but could equally have had a beautiful
:51:27. > :51:28.picture of two young men or women. At the demonstration the other day,
:51:29. > :51:36.there were lovely young women with their child, and that child in a
:51:37. > :51:39.lovely happy loving home. What we need is love, we do not need
:51:40. > :51:58.discrimination. It is an equality issue. And the question I would like
:51:59. > :51:58.to put to Arlene. You against the decriminalisation of homosexuality,
:51:59. > :51:59.except it because it is the law. They were against civil partnerships
:52:00. > :52:02.and accepted because it is the law. If a legal cases taken because of
:52:03. > :52:07.inequalities for lesbian and gauge unities in terms of marriage, and it
:52:08. > :52:16.is successful, will be DUP are accepted? Or will you with public
:52:17. > :52:26.money? One minute. We have devolution and make the laws. We are
:52:27. > :52:31.legislators and I will and for the question. We are the legislators,
:52:32. > :52:34.not the courts, we make the laws, and under the legislation given to
:52:35. > :52:39.us it is up to the people, and democracy, that provide a lot, you
:52:40. > :52:46.mentioned the petition of concern, which was not needed because there
:52:47. > :52:51.was a majority against the motion. And this is the last question. You
:52:52. > :52:56.said at the beginning of this interview that you should look at
:52:57. > :53:00.the rights for gay people. I'd use seeing the DUP as a party is
:53:01. > :53:07.actively looking at giving gay people more rights? The issue of
:53:08. > :53:11.rights, such as the right to be recognised as next of kin, that is
:53:12. > :53:21.not necessarily wrapped up in marriage. And a dialogue can be had.
:53:22. > :53:32.Ladies and gentlemen, thank Arlene Foster and Catriona Ruane. Unlikely
:53:33. > :53:36.career change. But that's exactly what happened to my next guest when
:53:37. > :53:39.she scooped the top prize on The X Factor. Since then, she has
:53:40. > :53:43.supported Beyonce on her World Tour, clocked up a number one album in the
:53:44. > :53:46.UK charts. Just last month, she announced she's expecting her third
:53:47. > :53:47.child. Ladies and gentlemen, singing Get Here, please welcome Sam Bailey.
:53:48. > :54:07.CHEERING. # You can reach me by railway.
:54:08. > :54:09.# You can reach me by trailway. # You can reach me on an airplane.
:54:10. > :54:20.# You can reach me by trailway. # You can reach me with your mind.
:54:21. > :54:28.# You can reach me by caravan. # Cross the desert like an Arab man.
:54:29. > :54:38.# I don't care how you get here. # Just get here if you can.
:54:39. > :54:43.# You can reach me by sail boat. # Climb a tree and swing rope to
:54:44. > :54:51.rope. # Take a sled and slide down slope.
:54:52. > :54:57.# Into these arms of mine. # You can jump on a speedy colt.
:54:58. > :55:05.# Cross the border in a blaze of hope.
:55:06. > :55:10.# I don't care how you get here. # Just get here if you can.
:55:11. > :55:20.# There are hills and mountains between us.
:55:21. > :55:29.# Always something to get over. # If I had my way.
:55:30. > :55:37.# Surely you would be closer. # Oh, I need you closer.
:55:38. > :55:46.# You can windsurf into my life. # Take me up on a carpet ride.
:55:47. > :55:53.# You can make it in a big balloon. # But you better make it soon!
:55:54. > :56:02.# You can reach me by caravan. # Cross the desert like an Arab man.
:56:03. > :56:16.# I don't care how you get here. # Just get here if you can.
:56:17. > :56:21.# I don't care. # I need you right here right now.
:56:22. > :56:24.# I need you right here. # Right now.
:56:25. > :56:33.# Right by my side. # Yeah, yeah, yeah.
:56:34. > :56:46.# I don't care how you get here. # Just get here if you can!
:56:47. > :57:03.# I don't care how you get here. # Just get here if you can. #.
:57:04. > :57:26.APPLAUSE. Thank you.
:57:27. > :57:53.MUSIC: Theme from "Rocky". CHEERING.
:57:54. > :58:00.Ladies and gentlemen, is he getting ready to take a tumble. Well, as
:58:01. > :58:06.big-time international boxing returns to Belfast. And before his
:58:07. > :58:11.shot at world title, in the blue corner, Carl "the Jackal" Frampton,
:58:12. > :58:21.getting last-minute instructions from a laid-back Barry McGuigan. And
:58:22. > :58:27.in the red corner, from the biggish show in the country, some say the
:58:28. > :58:32.biggest mouth in the country! A sumo wrestler who put on weight for this
:58:33. > :58:40.evening. Let us be having you into the centre of the ring, gentlemen.
:58:41. > :58:45.Easy, a good clean fight and may the better man win, and I know who that
:58:46. > :58:49.might be. Can we ring the bell? Away we go.
:58:50. > :59:06.LAUGHTER. Oh! The court nor Lindauer. -- he caught Nolan! I
:59:07. > :59:23.thought you were doing well. He hit me! Get him back!
:59:24. > :59:34.Go and not that one out! -- go and knock that bum out!
:59:35. > :59:41.Will you start hitting me properly! Carol Frampton is getting the better
:59:42. > :59:53.of it! -- Carl. Somebody has thrown the tile in! -- towel. Beat him up,
:59:54. > :00:00.Carl! Beat him up! Someone should ring the bell! Someone, ring the
:00:01. > :00:01.bell! I think the bell is broken!