Episode 6

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:00:09. > :00:13.One. Here's what we've got for you tonight. Deputy First Minister

:00:14. > :00:18.Martin McGuinness hits back at his critics. Am I prepared to die for

:00:19. > :00:21.the peace process? I will die tomorrow morning for the peace

:00:22. > :00:25.process, without any fear whatsoever. It is not a for

:00:26. > :00:30.Orangemen in north Belfast. It is illegal to burn tyres on

:00:31. > :00:37.bonfires so why isn't more been done to stop it? We'll have a report on

:00:38. > :00:40.the health risks. Star of Coronation Street Michelle

:00:41. > :00:44.Colins will be here. And we have the red hot chilli

:00:45. > :01:12.peppers! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:01:13. > :01:15.Hello there. We've got a fantastic audience in here tonight. Thank you

:01:16. > :01:20.for joining us live on BBC One. This is the last show of the current

:01:21. > :01:25.series. First off, a big political interview with lots of you will no

:01:26. > :01:29.doubt will want to talk about. It seem as day hardly goes by without

:01:30. > :01:33.another row between the DUP and Sinn Fein. There's been growing

:01:34. > :01:37.speculation that tensions between Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness

:01:38. > :01:41.are at boiling point. Well, I've been talking to the Deputy First

:01:42. > :01:45.Minister. We covered a lot of ground, including the Stormont

:01:46. > :01:49.bust-ups and the big issues. I asked Martin McGuinness about sharing

:01:50. > :01:59.power with the First Minister. I have a working relationship with

:02:00. > :02:03.Peter. I mean, I'm in the position of Deputy First Minister for seven

:02:04. > :02:11.years now and it all started with the relationship with Ian Paisley.

:02:12. > :02:16.To the surprise of many people, Ian Paisley and I had not just a good

:02:17. > :02:20.working relationship, we had a good personal relationship, which has

:02:21. > :02:26.existed to this very day. I wonder do people in the DUP like that?

:02:27. > :02:33.Well, at the time that Ian Paisley left as First Minister there was a

:02:34. > :02:40.lot of people within unionism outlining the reasons for that,

:02:41. > :02:47.which was cited as his age. The other was cited as people at

:02:48. > :02:50.important levels within the DUP didn't like the friendly

:02:51. > :02:59.relationship that he and I had. Do you think that's part of why they

:03:00. > :03:03.got rid of them? I think that was one of the reasons why he had to go.

:03:04. > :03:11.I don't know if that's accurate, but the reality was in the aftermath of

:03:12. > :03:15.that there was quite clearly a decision that the DUP shouldn't be

:03:16. > :03:20.seen to be getting too close to Sinn Fein. Due care? Yes, I do care,

:03:21. > :03:27.because I think that an special phase of the whole process of

:03:28. > :03:32.conflict resolution is the importance of reconciliation between

:03:33. > :03:37.political opponents and between everybody within our community. But

:03:38. > :03:42.Peter doesn't need to like you. He just needs to work with you. I'm not

:03:43. > :03:49.saying I dislike Peter and I don't think Peter's ever said he dislikes

:03:50. > :03:54.me. We've always had I think a very civilised and cordial relationship,

:03:55. > :03:57.a working relationship. Correspondence -- correspondents and

:03:58. > :04:03.political commentators are saying it has never been more toxic. Well,

:04:04. > :04:08.that's total nonsense. There has never been a day in the building or

:04:09. > :04:15.Stormont castle where Peter Robinson and I haven't spoken. Can you trust

:04:16. > :04:19.him? Prior to the decision I met with Peter before that, before he

:04:20. > :04:23.went to the United States on his holidays, which he was absolutely

:04:24. > :04:29.entitled to do. As far as I was concerned, the project to build the

:04:30. > :04:40.conflict resolution centre was still on the agenda. Out of the blue, a

:04:41. > :04:45.letter comes from the States. I don't get a telephone call, to say

:04:46. > :04:52.that the plug has been pulled on the project, so from that perspective,

:04:53. > :04:57.I'm obviously wary. It is a pretty fundamental, so I will ask you

:04:58. > :05:00.again. Do you trust him? I don't trust him with regard to that

:05:01. > :05:04.particular issue. Apart from that there is no secret that there was a

:05:05. > :05:11.major difference of opinion between him and myself in relation to the

:05:12. > :05:15.attitude of the DUP in relation to the violence that was happening on

:05:16. > :05:19.the streets, the attacks that were happening on the police. And the

:05:20. > :05:23.threats that were being made against isolated communities. You know

:05:24. > :05:27.exactly what they will be saying and many unionists in the country will

:05:28. > :05:32.be saying. They are going to say they are not going to take any

:05:33. > :05:36.lessons from you about violence. I'm glad you asked me that question.

:05:37. > :05:40.They went into Government with me seven years ago on the basis that we

:05:41. > :05:43.were looking to the future, not the past. I know there is always a

:05:44. > :05:48.danger, if I speak out against things that are happening on the

:05:49. > :05:52.streets in the here and now that my past will be upcast to me. You will

:05:53. > :05:58.be accused of being a hypocrite won't new People will accuse me of

:05:59. > :06:01.being a hypocrite. How can you accuse anyone of supporting

:06:02. > :06:07.violence, when you did it for a lot of your life? Well, you see, the

:06:08. > :06:12.line on conflict in this country was drawn when we had the Good Friday

:06:13. > :06:16.agreement. I have since negotiated other agreements with the DUP,

:06:17. > :06:21.particularly the St Andrews Agreement and the Hillsborough

:06:22. > :06:24.agreement, which saw fundamental changes to Republicans' attitude to

:06:25. > :06:28.the use of violence here in the north. As far as I'm concerned,

:06:29. > :06:32.violence, conflict of any description, was a no-no. Our duty

:06:33. > :06:36.and responsibility as politicians was to stand up for the agreements

:06:37. > :06:42.that we made. I made an agreement that I would give 100% support, but

:06:43. > :06:49.not uncritical support, to the PSNI in the context of the changes that

:06:50. > :06:53.took place. For that I have been threatened with death by so-called

:06:54. > :06:58.dissident Republicans. My home has been attacked. My wife has been

:06:59. > :07:04.verbally abused on the streets by these people, but I have stood up

:07:05. > :07:07.and no-one can question my commitment to supporting the police

:07:08. > :07:11.or to the protection of the peace process and the institutions of

:07:12. > :07:15.which I am a part. I'm not sure about that, because I can put

:07:16. > :07:20.questions about that. I wonder where you found wanting recently Ben Gerry

:07:21. > :07:27.Adams was arrested. I saw you standing on the platform. I saw

:07:28. > :07:36.Bobby's Story, how dare they touch our leader? I saw you clapping. The

:07:37. > :07:40.leader of Irish republicanism... I saw a press conference in which some

:07:41. > :07:45.people read your comments that maybe you were going to withdraw your

:07:46. > :07:49.support for policing. You were tested. How dare they touch our

:07:50. > :07:55.leader? How dare who touch our leader, the authorities, the police?

:07:56. > :07:59.They weren't my words. Did you not clap? Let's deal with what I said

:08:00. > :08:02.during the course of the press conference. You mentioned some

:08:03. > :08:06.people said, you were one of those people that said that I had said

:08:07. > :08:09.during the course of the press conference that Sinn Fein would

:08:10. > :08:13.withdraw support for the police. That was never said during the

:08:14. > :08:18.course of the press conference. There was never any suggestion

:08:19. > :08:22.during the press conference, why would we withdraw support from an

:08:23. > :08:24.organisation that we were very much instrumental in bringing about in

:08:25. > :08:29.terms of the negotiations that brought about the new beginning to

:08:30. > :08:34.policing? It wouldn't make sense. Let's come back to the current

:08:35. > :08:38.situation up here. You read some of the public comments from Peter

:08:39. > :08:43.Robinson about you. For example, in recent times during the Muslim

:08:44. > :08:48.controversy, he said about you, he said, I won't take lectures from a

:08:49. > :08:52.self-confessed leader of a bloody terrorist organisation on equality,

:08:53. > :08:57.tolerance and mutual respect for all. So how could the public read

:08:58. > :09:02.anything into that other than this relationship between the two of you

:09:03. > :09:06.is anything but workman like, he isn't taking lessons from you on

:09:07. > :09:12.equality, mutual respect, tolerance. What's left? If Peter felt that way

:09:13. > :09:16.about me, I don't understand how he was involved in discussions with me

:09:17. > :09:21.about how we build together you knighted community. I just felt that

:09:22. > :09:26.was an attempt to deflect attention from the remarks made by Pastor

:09:27. > :09:30.McConnell and the way in which Peter handled that. If I was listening to

:09:31. > :09:33.just this interview and didn't understand the bigger picture in

:09:34. > :09:37.Northern Ireland, I would think you and Peter were sitting here having

:09:38. > :09:41.buns every day. You are at loggerheads over education. You

:09:42. > :09:46.cannot make it work together or find agreement. You were at loggerheads

:09:47. > :09:52.over welfare reform. You are at loggerheads over the Ardoyne issue.

:09:53. > :09:57.I'm not at loggerheads with them about welfare reform. I'm at

:09:58. > :10:01.loggerheads with the British Government about welfare reform.

:10:02. > :10:05.This is devolution in Northern Ireland. You've got it here. This is

:10:06. > :10:14.a very important point. David Cameron has now been British Prime

:10:15. > :10:20.Minister for almost four years. Sinn Fein is the political party, has

:10:21. > :10:25.never had one meet with David Cameron. How many have you asked

:10:26. > :10:30.for? Countless meetings over four years, and he has resisted doing

:10:31. > :10:36.that. He was found out recently, and I found him out in terms of the fact

:10:37. > :10:41.that private meetings were taking place with the DUP. Not a private

:10:42. > :10:46.meeting, private meetings were taking place with the DUP. I wrote

:10:47. > :10:51.to him about two weeks ago, very critical of his lack of engagement

:10:52. > :11:07.in this process. What did you say to him? And criticised his stance on

:11:08. > :11:17.welfare reform. They did not support these proposals. I have since had

:11:18. > :11:29.the communication from David Cameron that he did not want to meet with

:11:30. > :11:35.myself or Gerry Adams. For a British prime minister to not have met the

:11:36. > :11:42.party I think is terrible. Why do you think he has not agreed to a

:11:43. > :11:55.meeting yet? Because we criticise them. We listen to more in the White

:11:56. > :12:03.House than we are in London. It is significant that the agreement to

:12:04. > :12:08.meet Gerry Adams and myself has come out after the exposure of these

:12:09. > :12:19.private meetings. It is now less than a year until the next British

:12:20. > :12:30.general election. We have had our problems in the United Kingdom. When

:12:31. > :12:33.we had ten Ulster Unionists in the parliament, and the John Major

:12:34. > :12:48.government, we did not move forward at all. If he thinks he can just try

:12:49. > :12:51.to get the thoughts of the Democratic Democratic Unionists in

:12:52. > :12:59.Westminster, I think he is doing a grave disservice to the politicians

:13:00. > :13:09.here. Does David Cameron need the Democratic Unionist party? Yes, and

:13:10. > :13:15.they also need the peace process. What is your H to the Prime

:13:16. > :13:21.Minister? What is in jeopardy is how we move forward in the peace process

:13:22. > :13:28.and that is the reconciliation stage. One of the biggest issues is

:13:29. > :13:35.what we have called the past and how we can reach compromise with each

:13:36. > :13:48.other. Sometimes leadership is about being a personal leader. We saw

:13:49. > :13:52.Peter Robinson making a public apology yesterday. Do you think you

:13:53. > :14:00.should make a public apology for the past? Do you not think that would be

:14:01. > :14:09.looked on well by people in Northern Ireland? I think I have done a lot

:14:10. > :14:15.of things. Have you done that? Letters put it this way, in terms of

:14:16. > :14:23.the past, I am sorry for the people parked by the conflict. Many people

:14:24. > :14:34.have commented about you that you can be charming and disarming. I

:14:35. > :14:39.would quite like to get to know how sorry you are genuinely, about

:14:40. > :14:47.things which have happened in the past. From what you have contributed

:14:48. > :14:59.to in the past and the part you played, how sorry I you? Sorry can

:15:00. > :15:05.be a hard word for people to say. But how sorry are you? It can also

:15:06. > :15:13.be very easy for people to say and it can also be very insincere. I

:15:14. > :15:21.think I would prefer to be judged on the contributions I have made to

:15:22. > :15:29.resolving this problem over the past 20 years. I was Sinn Fein 's chief

:15:30. > :15:35.negotiator in the St Andrews talks, also in the Hillsborough talks. I

:15:36. > :15:39.was a chief negotiator who dealt with things like the IRA to talk

:15:40. > :15:45.about a cease-fire, to get them to put their weapons beyond use,

:15:46. > :15:49.getting support for the police. I think that is how people are judged.

:15:50. > :15:53.They are judged by the contribution they have made, as opposed to the

:15:54. > :16:05.words they have said. Feeding off, but that is you, the politician. The

:16:06. > :16:09.purpose of the question is to let every citizen in Northern Ireland

:16:10. > :16:14.look into your eyes and see what that tells is about the individual,

:16:15. > :16:21.how sorry are you? How sorry do you want me to be? I want you to be as

:16:22. > :16:27.genuinely sorry as you are. My process -- contribution to the

:16:28. > :16:33.process tells you what you need. The conflict was terrible, it was awful

:16:34. > :16:37.and it was awful that so many people from all sections of our communities

:16:38. > :16:44.suffered the cause of it. I have dedicated my life to changing all of

:16:45. > :16:50.that. It is to the point where my wife has been set in. I am am I

:16:51. > :16:56.prepared to die for the peace process? I will die tomorrow,

:16:57. > :17:03.without any fear. The things you are sorry for, do the trouble you?

:17:04. > :17:10.Individual situations do not trouble me. What troubles me is that we were

:17:11. > :17:15.all part of a conflict. Peter Robinson, there has been speculation

:17:16. > :17:25.about when he might go. As you ever given any thoughts on retirement? I

:17:26. > :17:28.have always said I will carry on until we have achieved as much as we

:17:29. > :17:47.can with regard to the peace process. That is not yet over. I met

:17:48. > :17:54.the Queen at Windsor. Did you enjoy that? I am not sure enjoyment is the

:17:55. > :18:02.right word. Did you feel comfortable? To be honest, she would

:18:03. > :18:11.know that as a Republican, she probably did not feel very

:18:12. > :18:17.comfortable with me. But I think conciliation is very important. So,

:18:18. > :18:26.how long have you got? I am going to continue working towards the peace

:18:27. > :18:29.process. As they tame skill? Of course, I look forward to maybe

:18:30. > :18:34.doing fly fishing on a regular basis, because it is something I

:18:35. > :18:40.cannot do very much because of the challenges. I think it comes down to

:18:41. > :18:52.your health, your family, and issues such as that. I have been married 40

:18:53. > :19:01.years. I am 64 years of age, just past. I can continue on up until we

:19:02. > :19:06.see this sort of progress that the mass majority of people here want to

:19:07. > :19:14.see. I have to see also that, given the events of the last 18 months,

:19:15. > :19:27.there has been a sense of disappointment. I have spoken in the

:19:28. > :19:36.past about Ian Paisley and one of the reasons I he was first Minister.

:19:37. > :19:43.But I still meet Democratic Unionists who will stay still ignore

:19:44. > :19:47.me, not even see good day to me. Who are they? I have not even going to

:19:48. > :19:54.name their names. There are still people there who believe that in

:19:55. > :19:59.order to ensure that they have a mandate which helps them

:20:00. > :20:10.consistently, it is much better to be in conflict and in isolation

:20:11. > :20:15.mode. I am in reconciliation mode. There is not a day that passes that

:20:16. > :20:20.Peter Robinson and I do not talk. Against all the odds, I have been in

:20:21. > :20:24.the government for seven years. Firstly, with Ian Paisley and know

:20:25. > :20:33.with Peter Robinson, I think that is an achievement of sorts. We have

:20:34. > :20:42.done good work, but there is a awful lot of work to do. On these long

:20:43. > :20:50.trips from dairy, when you are listening to the radio show, do you

:20:51. > :20:51.still shout at the radial excavation muck I think he has made an attempt

:20:52. > :21:06.to be a bit fear in recent times. No doubt there will be quite a lot

:21:07. > :21:12.of social media traffic tonight. You can see the details on screen now as

:21:13. > :21:17.to how you can get in touch. There was some breaking news. Martin

:21:18. > :21:24.McGuinness and Gerry Adams will meet David Cameron in the near future. He

:21:25. > :21:27.said it will be the first time in David Cameron is four years in

:21:28. > :21:33.office that he has met a delegation from Sinn Fein. The peace process

:21:34. > :21:42.and welfare reform will be on the agenda. He has accused the

:21:43. > :21:47.Democratic Unionists, but first of all Europe reaction that David

:21:48. > :21:53.Cameron will make them since his first time in office. I wonder why

:21:54. > :21:57.it took four years for the leaders of the second largest party in

:21:58. > :22:04.Northern Ireland to Ascot to talk to the British Prime Minister. They

:22:05. > :22:10.said that they had asked. It is good that the Al excepting that he is the

:22:11. > :22:15.Prime Minister of this nation. They have been extremely irresponsible.

:22:16. > :22:22.When David Cameron does mean them, he has to be careful. I hope he

:22:23. > :22:28.stresses to Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness that FDR serious about a

:22:29. > :22:32.shared future, they have to be serious about a future for everyone.

:22:33. > :22:37.They say there is a red line in the sand here for Sinn Fein, the do not

:22:38. > :22:44.want to see people being disadvantaged. We do not want that

:22:45. > :22:52.either. That is why we have given concessions. Talking about a shared

:22:53. > :22:59.future, he talked about the people who do not talk to him. It is a

:23:00. > :23:08.professional job. It is not about looking at people. Would you speak

:23:09. > :23:15.to him? I am the to do a job. Martin McGuinness topped about trust. The

:23:16. > :23:21.community I represent have a difficulty trusting someone who has

:23:22. > :23:28.admitted that he was a senior official in the Miami, whose

:23:29. > :23:36.behaviour the other weeks when Gerry Adams was hailed any holding centre

:23:37. > :23:42.was deplorable. His party gets the second largest number of votes in

:23:43. > :23:46.Northern Ireland. But Peter Robinson travels around the world with them.

:23:47. > :23:51.It is almost as if they are on holiday. I am trying to answer your

:23:52. > :23:56.question. The people in Northern Ireland voted for Sinn Fein in those

:23:57. > :24:01.numbers. I would rather they didn't. I would rather they voted for

:24:02. > :24:07.unionist parties. I am delighted that in the recent elections, the

:24:08. > :24:11.share of the unionist vote went up. What is still to come in the

:24:12. > :24:20.programme. It is illegal but been allowed to continue, why are rubber

:24:21. > :24:28.tyres being allowed to be burnt on the elements of July. Again, there

:24:29. > :24:36.is controversy of an Orange order parade in the Crumlin Road. They

:24:37. > :24:46.wanted to complete a march which was curtailed last year after year right

:24:47. > :24:53.broke out. William, that leads commission has said never again.

:24:54. > :24:56.This is depressing. There is real anger and frustration in the

:24:57. > :25:01.community. This is the new Parades Commission. Some of the

:25:02. > :25:06.determinations were absolutely illogical. I have been to see the

:25:07. > :25:12.Trade Commission twice and I hoped that common sense would prevail. It

:25:13. > :25:16.looks as if the commission today as he was then to the threat of

:25:17. > :25:24.violence, which I think is incredible. You cannot be that

:25:25. > :25:28.surprised by that? Yes, I am surprised. The talks we have found

:25:29. > :25:33.with them in recent months, I hope there would be a positive outcome.

:25:34. > :25:39.Letters be quite clear, there were reasons why we were told we could

:25:40. > :25:42.not have the parade. We were told it was because of the elections another

:25:43. > :25:49.things. There have been considerable talks going on in recent months.

:25:50. > :25:53.There were talks which the Nationalists refused to turn up to.

:25:54. > :26:01.There were talks in recent weeks and this outcome clearly shows that the

:26:02. > :26:10.commission is about. It is about using a veto for nationalists and

:26:11. > :26:14.republicans. So you are going to rubbish the new commission? You

:26:15. > :26:20.supported them, did you not, your party? We welcomed there were new

:26:21. > :26:26.personnel, hoping there would be new thinking. The engagements I have had

:26:27. > :26:30.with the Commissioner in recent weeks and months have been positive.

:26:31. > :26:37.The feed-back was we were prepared to engage in a much more meaningful

:26:38. > :26:41.way. I know my Member Member of Parliament stressed today it looks

:26:42. > :26:47.like they've caved into the threat of violence. Is it not time to allow

:26:48. > :26:52.them to walk down the road, ten minutes and it is over, that's it?

:26:53. > :26:58.That's entirely the wrong way to approach this. For the past year the

:26:59. > :27:05.unionists and the loyalists have behaved in a disgraceful man manner.

:27:06. > :27:11.This is a most sensitive sectarian interface between the working class

:27:12. > :27:22.communities of Ardoyne and Shankill. This camp has had nightly parades

:27:23. > :27:28.where the loyalists have marched up to the wall and singing is songs.

:27:29. > :27:33.These have been erected at the interface pointing at the Catholic.

:27:34. > :27:38.The message is clear, a message of intolerance, a message of hate. It's

:27:39. > :27:43.been a disgrace. In entitle Er entitled to protest, are they not?

:27:44. > :27:48.We use that phrase all the time. They were entitled to protest but

:27:49. > :27:55.not raise sectarian tensions in a very irresponsible manner, in a most

:27:56. > :28:01.sensitive sectarian interface. And you support the camp, it is costing

:28:02. > :28:07.?9 million a year? An easy resolution to this. Six minutes,

:28:08. > :28:11.three lodges and two bands to parade along the Crumlin Road, a main

:28:12. > :28:16.arterial route in and ouch this city. How are they supposed to get

:28:17. > :28:22.home? They have civil and human rights and these are being ignored

:28:23. > :28:28.in this. They do get home, don't they? They haven't been in a tent

:28:29. > :28:36.since last year! LAUGHTER You can be as flippant as

:28:37. > :28:41.you like. I'm being factual. The fact of the matter is, and this is

:28:42. > :28:45.the problem with the BBC and certain sections of the media, those three

:28:46. > :28:50.lodges when they set out on 12th July and the Orange Lodge goes to

:28:51. > :28:55.parade and returns home to its orange property. In case I'm in La

:28:56. > :29:00.La Land, have they got in their front door in the last year? We are

:29:01. > :29:05.talking about the collective of the Orange Lodges. It is unfortunate you

:29:06. > :29:10.take that attitude. Yesterday in a debate which all parties in Northern

:29:11. > :29:16.Ireland supported on racist attacks. The motion by Sinn Fein included the

:29:17. > :29:21.words firmly opposes racism remarks discrimination and intolerance of

:29:22. > :29:27.any kind wherever it curse. In July 2012, the Orangemen came home and

:29:28. > :29:34.absolutely outrageous determine to come home for 4 o'clock. Had to get

:29:35. > :29:40.transport home. 2,000 republicans came on to the Crumlin Road. They

:29:41. > :29:45.attacked the police and set fire the a car which they pushed into police

:29:46. > :29:51.ranks and fired automatic gunfire, trying to murder a policeman, and

:29:52. > :29:59.the reward? Last year's march was banned. Was the violent rewarded?

:30:00. > :30:06.No, it wasn't rewarded. With the same logic the riots of 20505,

:30:07. > :30:10.parades subsequently allowed through were rewarding violence. Coming back

:30:11. > :30:15.to the point, what is the parade about? Is it having fun? Is it a

:30:16. > :30:19.cultural expression? If it is, why does it need to involve marching

:30:20. > :30:25.past Catholic homes? It doesn't need to involve that. If it was the case,

:30:26. > :30:29.the line William took about this being a human right, does he then

:30:30. > :30:40.say that republicans should be allowed to parade from leg needle --

:30:41. > :30:46.lug kneel, from Ardoyne down the Crumlin Road? Would you support that

:30:47. > :30:55.parade? The difference is... There is no difference if it is a human

:30:56. > :31:00.right. For 150 years, lodges... You can laugh. Lodges have paraded up

:31:01. > :31:07.and down there. There is no history of people from that village coming

:31:08. > :31:13.down the Crumlin Road. Would you not support that parade he talked about?

:31:14. > :31:17.It is a human right, it is not tradition. Since they were denied

:31:18. > :31:24.the right of coming down the Crumlin Road, not Ardoyne but Crumlin Road,

:31:25. > :31:31.and they walk past a predominantly unionist area, if they can't get

:31:32. > :31:35.down the Crumlin Road, which Gerry Kelly last year year, they will

:31:36. > :31:40.stand there as long as they like, but they won't get down. If they

:31:41. > :31:49.don't get down the Crumlin Road, do they get down the Cavehill Road? How

:31:50. > :31:57.do they join their brothers in the procession? The same way they get

:31:58. > :32:02.into other parades. Marching past to go to derry. How did they get there?

:32:03. > :32:07.On buses When they get on the buses to go back, as they have done on

:32:08. > :32:13.occasion, what's happened? The buses have been attacked. And that is

:32:14. > :32:18.wrong. I would never support that. I stood on Donegal Street when there

:32:19. > :32:22.was a mass being delivered in St Patrick's chapel. The Apprentice

:32:23. > :32:28.Boys came down, they recognised it was a mass, and they didn't play

:32:29. > :32:31.music. They behaved in a disciplined way. While people and politicians

:32:32. > :32:36.protested there while the mass was going ahead. On the return leg, when

:32:37. > :32:41.they were meant to walk up, there was a funeral coming out of the

:32:42. > :32:47.chapel. What they do? They waited until the cortege passed. That's the

:32:48. > :32:51.sort of way the people should behave and there studio should be

:32:52. > :32:57.reciprocation. Is there going to be trouble this summer again? Is it

:32:58. > :33:03.just going to go round on that awful merry-go-round where no-one wins?

:33:04. > :33:08.No-one wants to see trouble, and I have to say... People taking part

:33:09. > :33:14.nit want to see trouble. That's not true. For 328 days there has been a

:33:15. > :33:20.camp there which has been peaceful. OK. And the camp would disappear

:33:21. > :33:25.tomorrow if the Orangemen, three lodges, two bands, six minutes along

:33:26. > :33:31.the Crumlin Road, a main arterial route in and out of the city, was

:33:32. > :33:35.allowed to process. We are going to look at bonfires. We've been

:33:36. > :33:39.contacted by reds departments concerned about tyres being

:33:40. > :33:47.stockpiled at bonfire sites. Despite the fact that burning tyres illegal

:33:48. > :33:51.on health grounds. We filmed three sites where they are being

:33:52. > :33:53.collected. And we've commissioned research on potential health risks.

:33:54. > :34:10.Look at this. You've seen them on bonfires but

:34:11. > :34:18.what chemicals are released when a tyre is burnt? We've brought a tyre

:34:19. > :34:23.to a lab for analysis, where Dr Bloomfield takes a small section for

:34:24. > :34:26.testing. The sample of tyre is burnt in a controlled environment,

:34:27. > :34:31.producing a strong, unpleasant smell. Then fumes from the tyre are

:34:32. > :34:36.captured and treated with a solution which produces a coloured liquid.

:34:37. > :34:45.Finally, this liquid is injected into a machine for testing. This

:34:46. > :34:52.peak is 96% sure that's actually Styrene. Styrene is toxic to the

:34:53. > :35:02.eyes, to the skin, to the gastrointerest in all system. And we

:35:03. > :35:14.had ethyl, extremely toxic. If you look through the computer printout,

:35:15. > :35:21.there's naphthalene. People talk about these as being carcinogenic.

:35:22. > :35:25.We took them to the toxicologist, at the University of Ulster. When you

:35:26. > :35:31.burnt tyres on bonfires you are going to produce a number of

:35:32. > :35:36.predictable consequences. Irritant gases, lots of particles, and

:35:37. > :35:42.chemicals which potentially can cause cancer. If they are being

:35:43. > :35:51.burned in conjunction with other things, such as wood that's been

:35:52. > :35:57.treated with preserve actives, PCV plastic, that's going to provide a

:35:58. > :36:02.lot of chlorine, you are going to get dioxin formation. They get taken

:36:03. > :36:07.into the food chain, so the main way into the body isn't breathing.

:36:08. > :36:12.Dioxins are persistent chemicals. They were some of the most toxic

:36:13. > :36:18.substances we know of. They stick around in the body for decades and

:36:19. > :36:22.can be passed on to the next generation in the breast milk and

:36:23. > :36:29.across the placenta. That can lead in high dose to abnormalities of

:36:30. > :36:34.development. Well, joining me to discuss this the loyalist community

:36:35. > :36:37.worker Phil Hamilton and the alliance councillor John Blair.

:36:38. > :36:43.Phil, your reaction to that. Would you like to be living beside a

:36:44. > :36:46.bonfire with those tyres? I think we have to be realistic. For

:36:47. > :36:51.generations bonfires have had tyres on it. Yes there's a concern about

:36:52. > :36:56.the health risks. But for years across England, across France,

:36:57. > :37:00.across the world bonfires have burned with different materials that

:37:01. > :37:04.give out different toxins. But the pollutants go into the soil and

:37:05. > :37:08.these are potentially harmful. The only information I'm trying to bring

:37:09. > :37:12.to the community that's putting tyres on the bonfires, I'm trying to

:37:13. > :37:18.use the evidence to say, look at what you're doing to your own

:37:19. > :37:24.community. Why would you do that to your own community? To your own

:37:25. > :37:29.children. Ask first of all why they are using tyres. The reason why is

:37:30. > :37:33.because there's a lack of material at present, with so many bonfires

:37:34. > :37:36.across Northern Ireland. To fill the bonfires in. People may like this or

:37:37. > :37:41.may not like it but these are the facts. Speaking to the bonfire

:37:42. > :37:45.collectors before coming on to this programme I asked them the hard

:37:46. > :37:50.questions. They asked them why they are using tyres, and the reason is

:37:51. > :37:54.there is a lack of material. Do they want to endanger the people in their

:37:55. > :38:01.own community? No-one wants to do that. But it is spelt out by

:38:02. > :38:08.scientists. Community workers across the province who don't get paid.

:38:09. > :38:13.When we contact the agency as, no-one wants to know. Ten years ago

:38:14. > :38:17.I spoke to you about bonfires and ten years later I'm in the audience

:38:18. > :38:21.speaking about bonfires. Pro active measures have to happen. We have to

:38:22. > :38:27.be creative in our ideas. One of the ideas I brought to the table was

:38:28. > :38:31.would there be somewhere around January council or housing executive

:38:32. > :38:36.to store material to be put into the middle of a bonfire? If someone from

:38:37. > :38:40.outside the loyalist community brought in a potentially harmful

:38:41. > :38:45.substance and put it in the centre of the community that you represent,

:38:46. > :38:50.all hell would break loose, and your natural reaction would be, hold on a

:38:51. > :38:54.minute, you can't endanger our people. That would be the right

:38:55. > :39:01.reaction, wouldn't it? Steven, what we have to do is be creative in our

:39:02. > :39:05.ideas. We could sit sheer... Don't put tyres on a bonfire, that's how

:39:06. > :39:10.you address it. With the we need to do is go back to basks. We need tone

:39:11. > :39:18.gauge with the bonfire collectors and come up with creative ideas.

:39:19. > :39:24.When I come up with ideas councils are happy to have that negotiation

:39:25. > :39:30.with me behind closed doors. I would like to ask why you say there is a

:39:31. > :39:33.lack of materials, why are you happy burning palettes? It is bad enough

:39:34. > :39:38.you are polluting the environment, but it is the taxpayer that has to

:39:39. > :39:43.pay for the clean-up afterwards, not the ones running around the bonfire

:39:44. > :39:49.drunk. We are talking about tyres here. If you think about it as well

:39:50. > :39:53.there's other materials in bonfires give out toxics, so it is not just

:39:54. > :39:59.only the tyres. Palettes, there has to be something in the middle. This

:40:00. > :40:03.is what I'm saying. Why won't statutory agencies not come

:40:04. > :40:08.together, give an area where people can put stuff that can be burnt in

:40:09. > :40:12.the middle? I think if that option was given the you would see a

:40:13. > :40:15.reduction. What has to be given credit to is there's plenty of

:40:16. > :40:20.people across Northern Ireland working on this issue. Community

:40:21. > :40:28.workers and politicians. Bonfires, believe it or not... Do you see the

:40:29. > :40:33.pictures? Ten or 15 years ago you burnt bonfires. It is against the

:40:34. > :40:39.law. Steven, there is a lot of things against the law. That makes

:40:40. > :40:47.it alright then! It didn't make it alright. We need to come up with

:40:48. > :40:51.creative ideas to give alternatives. Bonfires on my estate have been

:40:52. > :40:56.burning for last 35 years. There is a pressure point now about tyres.

:40:57. > :41:04.You are saying it releases toxins. I'm not, the scientists are. No soil

:41:05. > :41:10.has been used for 30 years. I don't see why there is a flashpoint on it.

:41:11. > :41:14.So the scientists are making it up? They are saying toxins are in the

:41:15. > :41:20.soil. Is that is a bonfire area. That's it. Second is Your scientists

:41:21. > :41:26.are making things up in a laboratory. That's it. It is in a

:41:27. > :41:29.laboratory, not out in the open. There is a reason identities

:41:30. > :41:34.illegal, why there's legislation there. The executive isn't claiming

:41:35. > :41:38.it is their land. Other agencies won't claim it is their land. Look

:41:39. > :41:49.at these shots. Do you think seriously that the community should

:41:50. > :41:55.be educated against this? You need to remember that the number of

:41:56. > :41:59.bonfires held as vastly reduced. When I was growing up, every street

:42:00. > :42:08.had one. What has happened across this city is that the council has

:42:09. > :42:16.worked with communities. One of the pilots was in would feel, with the

:42:17. > :42:23.others a beacon, we a site could be set aside for that. I will tell you

:42:24. > :42:30.something, you have to be careful about this. I absolutely get the

:42:31. > :42:36.point about rubber tyres, but what this is being seen in the Protestant

:42:37. > :42:41.and unionist and wailed loyalist community, this is about the

:42:42. > :42:47.culture. If like has been taken down in the City Hall by Sinn Fein and

:42:48. > :42:56.the Alliance. Orange halls are being attacked. People are seeing this.

:42:57. > :43:01.The bonfires are something which are part of British society for years.

:43:02. > :43:12.When will we are merely became the monarchs, these bonfires were lit.

:43:13. > :43:18.What needs to happen? I am and selling your point. Should he have

:43:19. > :43:28.the rubber tyres on the bonfire? Ideally no. What about ideally no.

:43:29. > :43:32.Why not just know? We are living in the real world. People put them

:43:33. > :43:43.there because the burden for a long time. -- the burden.

:43:44. > :43:57.To get back to the environmental issue and we from the sectarian

:43:58. > :44:03.skier stories, the reality is there are plenty of bonfires which cause

:44:04. > :44:08.no issue at all. We respect the cultural expression of different

:44:09. > :44:14.groups within the country. We work with statutory agencies to make sure

:44:15. > :44:23.these are safe and enjoyable and family friendly. The reality with

:44:24. > :44:29.these sites that we sell out that there are sites which are illegal.

:44:30. > :44:32.You and I or any other member of the audience are not allowed to go out

:44:33. > :44:38.and burn these, because it is against the law. It is unreasonable

:44:39. > :44:49.that other people should be able to just make up their own law. Go

:44:50. > :44:53.ahead. You were talking about people burning tyres and their own

:44:54. > :45:00.community. We talked about this cultural war. What about people who

:45:01. > :45:07.do not really care about nationalism or unionism, who have to put up with

:45:08. > :45:18.this every year. We have our freedom to travel restricted every year.

:45:19. > :45:26.With the not be a better way to do this. Is not a better way to not

:45:27. > :45:33.cause will use or cause this monumental upheaval each year.

:45:34. > :45:42.Communities across the immunity, there are obviously bonfires in the

:45:43. > :45:48.Nationalists community as well. I totally accent you are right not to

:45:49. > :45:54.celebrate the jive a 12 weekend. But it is important to the thousands of

:45:55. > :46:00.people who do go out on the janitors to make sure we get the maximum

:46:01. > :46:06.benefit out of jail either 12, in terms of two is and the benefit to

:46:07. > :46:14.the city from that. There are issues to be addressed. The orange

:46:15. > :46:18.institutions and loyalist community work workers have been working hard

:46:19. > :46:21.to address this. Thank you for joining us. Please give the panel a

:46:22. > :46:32.round of applause. No, just before we move on, there is

:46:33. > :46:46.a lot of interaction tonight. This is how you can get in touch.

:46:47. > :46:59.Straight after the show, I will talk to all of you for a couple of

:47:00. > :47:04.hours. My next guess what any call centre, fought burgers and had a

:47:05. > :47:15.brief pop career before getting her big break in EasEEnders. She has

:47:16. > :47:19.also written to the screen in Coronation Street, but she also had

:47:20. > :47:21.the harrowing story about anorexia and Ballymena. Please welcome,

:47:22. > :47:42.Michelle Collins. Hello. It is very late, isn't it? It is

:47:43. > :47:49.past my bedtime. I started off reading about you and I first read

:47:50. > :47:53.that you cringe to when we show you in EasEEnders. Letters have a look

:47:54. > :48:08.at you back then. I will fight this all the way. We

:48:09. > :48:10.are my children? I have just been to the house and there is no one there.

:48:11. > :48:23.Where are they? Give them these. This is just a few

:48:24. > :48:28.things they may need that you forgot. Stephen cannot sleep without

:48:29. > :48:34.that. He needs a security blanket, more than ever. Pyjamas, socks, just

:48:35. > :48:41.things that they need because you did not think he may need them.

:48:42. > :48:43.Think hard about yourself. Do not stop looking over your shoulder,

:48:44. > :48:56.because I will get them back. Why do you cringe at that? I just do

:48:57. > :49:02.not like watching myself. It was a long time ago. Everyone has gone,

:49:03. > :49:12.apart from Adam. All these great actors. It was a long time ago. And

:49:13. > :49:16.looks so young they are. They just do not like watching myself. I have

:49:17. > :49:24.never been a lover of watching myself on television. You were in an

:49:25. > :49:29.iconic show like that years ago and you are still stopped I people in

:49:30. > :49:34.the street about it? Yes, especially by younger people, it makes me

:49:35. > :49:43.wonder how they would possibly know. But she seems to be keep recurring.

:49:44. > :49:54.And Ian seems to be obsessed still by her, so I hear. What would you

:49:55. > :50:01.like them. I like to know the person behind the screen character. Well

:50:02. > :50:10.you happy? As Michelle, that was about 1997. I left in 1996 to have

:50:11. > :50:17.my daughter, had a year off on them and back for six months. I was

:50:18. > :50:24.happy. And then at roundabout 1995 I need the decision to leave. Why? I

:50:25. > :50:35.just felt I needed to move on. I felt I needed to be a normal actor,

:50:36. > :50:40.as it were. I wanted the challenge. I actually feel pregnant at that

:50:41. > :50:47.time, so at all what total very well. I had a year off and what

:50:48. > :50:52.about and then I went back for six months. I was not happy, I did not

:50:53. > :50:59.like it. I did not feel that I fitted in any more. When I can back,

:51:00. > :51:03.I felt I had moved on. You have a the battle for quite a long time

:51:04. > :51:12.with wheat issues. You are looking fantastic. You feel the need to

:51:13. > :51:20.re-lose weight and you got anorexia? When I was very young, about 19, I

:51:21. > :51:28.was always, I was never a big child in any way. It was different when I

:51:29. > :51:38.was 19, there was not the whole social networking thing, there were

:51:39. > :51:42.not, celebrity existed, but it was not like now, with all these

:51:43. > :51:47.magazines with people obsessed by working at themselves. I think the

:51:48. > :51:56.industry brought it on. I was any hunk banter a year. Basically, the

:51:57. > :52:06.site as, the letters go. It was a real shock to me. It was rejection?

:52:07. > :52:14.Yes, possibly. When they talk about eating disorders, is a genetic, is

:52:15. > :52:25.it,. What will you doing? I started dieting. Then I became a vegetarian

:52:26. > :52:31.and then it just got, it just seemed to spiral out of control. This was a

:52:32. > :52:39.lovely couple of years period. When did you know you were in trouble?

:52:40. > :52:48.Probably when I got to about just under six stone and I went to an

:52:49. > :52:58.addition. Audition. They phoned up my agent and said, is she actually

:52:59. > :53:03.OK. I think you start to feel unwell. You know within yourself

:53:04. > :53:16.when you are not right. It gave me a big shake-up and then I decided to

:53:17. > :53:22.go down to the gymnasium. I found a gymnasium and did it that way. Food

:53:23. > :53:30.addiction is a control. You need to control something. Clearly, the rear

:53:31. > :53:39.factors. You fought your way through that. You have not just been in one

:53:40. > :53:43.iconic show. It is a sign of how resilient you are is that the sort

:53:44. > :53:50.of thing going on to the other huge show. Is it bigger than EastEnders

:53:51. > :54:08.seer? Yes, I believe it is. That is a brilliant thing to have

:54:09. > :54:17.had. I did a lot of work in between. But I suppose people, I did not

:54:18. > :54:23.realise how huge Coronation Street was and I did not realise the effect

:54:24. > :54:28.on the when I was in it. Coming from EastEnders, I at a just be able to

:54:29. > :54:34.go in the front door and not really be noticed. But it did not work like

:54:35. > :54:40.that. There was this huge publicity thing. In the beginning, I got

:54:41. > :54:49.slated for my accent and everything, but I rode the storm. Which show did

:54:50. > :54:53.you pay fair? It is very -- Playfair.

:54:54. > :54:59.They have very different. Everyone loves to play the bad general. I

:55:00. > :55:10.love to she was a great character, but I

:55:11. > :55:19.think the EastEnders character was more exciting. Could you go back? I

:55:20. > :55:25.am actually dead in EastEnders, so I do not think I could do that. Well,

:55:26. > :55:35.you never know, stranger things have happened. I want to be an actor once

:55:36. > :55:44.again. People are seeing quite? But I just like the challenge. I wish we

:55:45. > :55:50.had more time with you. I wanted to talk to you, because you have lost a

:55:51. > :55:57.lot of weight as well. Ladies and gentlemen, please thank Michelle

:55:58. > :56:03.Collins. That is all we have got time for. That is all we have time

:56:04. > :56:11.for the entire serious. We have made some noise over the last six weeks

:56:12. > :56:13.or so. Two players out, we would have something special. Shall we

:56:14. > :00:32.will CAR HORN BLARES

:00:33. > :00:34.Whoa!