:00:10. > :00:18.Welcome to the referendum debate. In just 15 days time, millions of
:00:19. > :00:20.Scots will head to polling stations to cast their votes. Tonight, we are
:00:21. > :00:44.in Aberdeen. On our panel, for the Scottish
:00:45. > :00:49.National Party, a politician who is at the heart of the Yes campaign,
:00:50. > :00:54.Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. For Labour, Jim Murphy,
:00:55. > :00:58.who has been touring the country and getting the occasional egg thrown at
:00:59. > :01:02.him. The former leader of the Scottish Conservatives, who now sits
:01:03. > :01:08.in the house of lords as well as Holyrood, Annabel Goldie, and one of
:01:09. > :01:12.the most prominent supporters of independence, Brian Souter. In the
:01:13. > :01:19.interests of a good debate, our audience are evenly divided with
:01:20. > :01:22.some who are still making up their minds at the front. Our audience
:01:23. > :01:27.have submitted their questions and our panel have not seen them.
:01:28. > :01:31.Welcome to Aberdeen. They call it the Granite city, and
:01:32. > :01:38.the name suits Aberdeen's character as well as its style. The people
:01:39. > :01:44.here took on the North Sea and won. First, it was wailing, fishing and
:01:45. > :01:49.trade. Now the black gold. While arguments rage about how much
:01:50. > :01:54.remains, Europe's oil capital is still making serious money. Aberdeen
:01:55. > :01:59.is not flashy. It does not seek the limelight. But it is right now at
:02:00. > :02:05.the heart of the referendum debate. So let's get right on with that
:02:06. > :02:08.debate with our first question from Joanna Hardy.
:02:09. > :02:17.Would an independent Scotland be less vulnerable to terrorism? Jim
:02:18. > :02:20.Murphy? I do not think the threat from
:02:21. > :02:24.terrorism is greater whether we are part of the United Kingdom or we are
:02:25. > :02:31.independent. There are nations all over the world who are threatened by
:02:32. > :02:37.a terror and horror which respects no border or boundary. Really, it is
:02:38. > :02:40.about how do we keep ourselves strong and resilient? The investment
:02:41. > :02:46.we have in our armed Forces and security service, that is crucial.
:02:47. > :02:52.If I have a criticism it would be a mild one, they have to think about
:02:53. > :02:55.how they would configure and Armed Forces say that the country stays
:02:56. > :02:59.safe and secure. But this is an issue which should not divide us
:03:00. > :03:02.left or right, Patriot or nationalist and we should do all
:03:03. > :03:08.that we can to keep our country as strong as possible and ensure the
:03:09. > :03:16.safety and integrity of our nation and our well-being.
:03:17. > :03:19.Nicola Sturgeon, would an independent Scotland be less
:03:20. > :03:24.vulnerable to the threat of terrorism? We should never assume
:03:25. > :03:29.that. There should not be any complacency about the threat we face
:03:30. > :03:34.from international terrorism. An independent Scotland would require
:03:35. > :03:39.to be properly defended and properly protected against those threats. As
:03:40. > :03:42.a continuing part of the British Isles, an independent Scotland, we
:03:43. > :03:48.share an island with England and Wales and there would be a massive,
:03:49. > :03:52.interest with other parts of the UK to continue to work together to
:03:53. > :03:57.ensure our common defence and security. It is no secret that one
:03:58. > :04:00.of the big disagreements my party has had with Jim's party, and I
:04:01. > :04:04.agree about not making this political, but one of the big
:04:05. > :04:09.disagreements was over the war in Iraq. I certainly hope that whatever
:04:10. > :04:12.party was in government in an independent Scotland, we would be
:04:13. > :04:18.respecters of international law at all times. My last point is to say
:04:19. > :04:20.that quite a significant intervention in the independence
:04:21. > :04:28.debate today has come from the recently retired UK Ambassador to
:04:29. > :04:33.NATO, who has indicated that she will be voting Yes in the
:04:34. > :04:37.referendum. She makes Frei clear that neither an independent Scotland
:04:38. > :04:42.or the rest of the UK would be any less safe as a result of
:04:43. > :04:48.independence. I think given her expertise, given her experience,
:04:49. > :04:52.that is a voice we should listen to. The question was not would it be
:04:53. > :04:56.more vulnerable but less vulnerable? Is in the logic of your position
:04:57. > :05:00.that you are trying to distance yourself from the imperialist
:05:01. > :05:04.British state that gets involved in wars in Iraq that it might be less
:05:05. > :05:07.vulnerable? I have said is reasonably as possible but I
:05:08. > :05:12.disagreed with the previous Labour government in terms of the war in
:05:13. > :05:17.Iraq. I hope that an independent Scotland, as I hope all countries
:05:18. > :05:22.respect international law, and send an example to the rest of the world.
:05:23. > :05:25.I did say at the start of my answer, I don't think any reasonable
:05:26. > :05:30.responsible politician in any country should never assume that we
:05:31. > :05:34.are less vulnerable than any other country to international terrorism.
:05:35. > :05:37.It is important that we stress that but also that we stress the
:05:38. > :05:41.interests of Scotland and our partners across the British Isles
:05:42. > :05:47.are working together to secure a common defence Security. Annabel
:05:48. > :05:52.Goldie? May be surprisingly I'm going to agree with the last part of
:05:53. > :05:58.Nicola's contribution. I agree that terrorism is a threat. It is a fact
:05:59. > :06:03.of the age in which we live. I have to say, from my perspective, I do
:06:04. > :06:08.think as part of the United Kingdom, and we are able to do two
:06:09. > :06:12.things, we are able to sustain a meaningful defence capability. We
:06:13. > :06:18.have the fourth biggest defence budget in the world. But we are also
:06:19. > :06:25.able to secure very sophisticated intelligence operations, both
:06:26. > :06:28.surveyors in gathering of data and information. That is not to say an
:06:29. > :06:33.independent Scotland would not do its best to cooperate with the rest
:06:34. > :06:36.of the UK and try and share data and information, I just think to be
:06:37. > :06:40.honest, that is much more readily done if we are all within the
:06:41. > :06:45.partnership of the UK and that is to me, one of the many attributes and
:06:46. > :06:49.benefits we share by being in that partnership. Thank you very much. I
:06:50. > :06:54.would love to hear from the audience. I will come to you in a
:06:55. > :07:00.minute if you have your hands up. Brian Souter. Common sense tells me
:07:01. > :07:04.we would be less vulnerable because you do not see the same acts of
:07:05. > :07:11.terrorism committed with smaller countries. Doubtless our colonial
:07:12. > :07:16.past makes us a target for some of the terrorists. I do agree however,
:07:17. > :07:19.with Nicola, that no one is safe from terrorism. An independent
:07:20. > :07:23.Scotland would have to be active with its own security forces and we
:07:24. > :07:30.would have to prepare ourselves so we could defend ourselves from
:07:31. > :07:34.terrorism. Is Britain to blame for terrorism? I do not think they are
:07:35. > :07:38.to blame but my vision of an independent Scotland would be quite
:07:39. > :07:43.different. I believe an independent Scotland would be active with
:07:44. > :07:47.refugees in Gaza, with the Yazidi, with the Christian minority. Our
:07:48. > :07:53.role would not be a colonial role where we were policemen, our role
:07:54. > :07:57.would be where we are lining up with the compassionate folks and helping
:07:58. > :07:59.with the charities. I think we would have a different role
:08:00. > :08:09.internationally if we were independent. From the man with the
:08:10. > :08:15.beard? Can I just point out that it was not only Westminster, it was not
:08:16. > :08:19.only international law that they disobey that also the million people
:08:20. > :08:31.who marched on London and the overwhelming majority of the people
:08:32. > :08:35.of the UK. Thank you. Yes? I cannot see how breaking up the UK helps us
:08:36. > :08:41.with the institutions across the world. The woman at the back? Surely
:08:42. > :08:45.terrorism and its whole aspect is you are not supposed to see it
:08:46. > :08:48.coming. If an independent Scotland took a more maternally stick view,
:08:49. > :08:52.then they would be more vulnerable to that sort of attack because they
:08:53. > :08:59.are going to attack the people they are already trying to get rid of
:09:00. > :09:04.elsewhere. One more point. It is just with regards to the general
:09:05. > :09:07.defence of Scotland. I find it a bit hypocritical to be told by the UK
:09:08. > :09:14.government that we are being defended when the current cuts have
:09:15. > :09:21.resulted in an Air Force Base covering an area from Shetland to
:09:22. > :09:25.Leeming. The fact that we have no naval surface vessels based in
:09:26. > :09:29.Scotland at all and we have no maritime reconnaissance aircraft in
:09:30. > :09:38.the UK at all. Jim Murphy, they are spending billions on Trident. This
:09:39. > :09:42.issue is too complicated, too intricate to reduce it to which
:09:43. > :09:45.countries were involved in the Iraq war or the Afghanistan conflict.
:09:46. > :09:50.There were nations which were involved in Iraq and were not,
:09:51. > :09:53.nations which were involved in Afghanistan and were not which are
:09:54. > :09:59.subject to this horrible terror which is indiscriminate. Can we
:10:00. > :10:03.address this point? The specific point about the priorities of
:10:04. > :10:10.defence at UK government level, money being spent on Trident and not
:10:11. > :10:16.on maritime aircraft. I want a world free of all nuclear weapons. This
:10:17. > :10:20.technology has been invented. We cannot un-invented it. We cannot put
:10:21. > :10:25.it back in the box. The idea that people who are against all nuclear
:10:26. > :10:30.weapons, of course they are members of the MDM that is entirely noble,
:10:31. > :10:35.but the idea that we vote for independence and we move our nuclear
:10:36. > :10:39.deterrent a few miles down the M6 and stay in the club called NATO has
:10:40. > :10:42.no deep principles about it whatsoever. Let's try and get rid of
:10:43. > :10:46.nuclear warheads all across the planet. The last Labour government
:10:47. > :10:50.reduced the number of warheads more than any other nation on earth and
:10:51. > :10:57.that has to continue. I know this is a very expensive deterrent. But in a
:10:58. > :11:00.world where India and Pakistan are facing off against each other across
:11:01. > :11:05.a nuclear divide, where Iran is trying to get the nuclear bomb,
:11:06. > :11:08.where North Korea is trying to get the nuclear bomb, I do not want to
:11:09. > :11:12.be in a world where we unilaterally give up on our deterrent when so
:11:13. > :11:16.many other countries are trying to acquire it.
:11:17. > :11:23.APPLAUSE Nicola Sturgeon? I will put my cards
:11:24. > :11:28.on the table. I am against nuclear weapons in principle. I would have
:11:29. > :11:31.more sympathy with Jim's point on Trident if Westminster were in the
:11:32. > :11:35.business of trying to negotiate Trident away. But that is not the
:11:36. > :11:41.case. Westminster are in the business of spending money to
:11:42. > :11:45.replace Trident and put a new generation of Trident on the Clyde.
:11:46. > :11:50.I agree wholeheartedly that we do not want to see countries like Iran
:11:51. > :11:54.and North Korea develop nuclear weapons of their own. I just happen
:11:55. > :11:57.to think that countries like the UK would have more credibility in
:11:58. > :12:01.saying to other countries, don't have nuclear weapons, if they
:12:02. > :12:05.weren't in the business of putting new nuclear weapons in. Just to
:12:06. > :12:12.bring that back to the question, Annabel Goldie, how do nuclear
:12:13. > :12:19.weapons make Scotland safer from terrorism, for example? I think it
:12:20. > :12:24.is difficult to prove a deterrent is a deterrent. Trident is a deterrent.
:12:25. > :12:29.All I can tell you is in the last six decades, thankfully, we have not
:12:30. > :12:34.seen nuclear conflict. I totally agree with the concept that we want
:12:35. > :12:38.to try and reduce the presence of nuclear weaponry worldwide. I want
:12:39. > :12:42.to see that happening. I can tell you now that you do not do that from
:12:43. > :12:48.a position of weakness. It was interesting to watch the attitude of
:12:49. > :12:52.democratic powers when Iran was trying to develop a nuclear
:12:53. > :12:56.facility. Thankfully, that was constrained. It was constrained on
:12:57. > :12:59.the back of diplomatic argument, constrained on the back of knowledge
:13:00. > :13:04.that countries with nuclear powers are saying to others, do not let
:13:05. > :13:10.this escalate, do not expand this, we are all trying to work towards a
:13:11. > :13:14.position where international agreement, we can see multilateral
:13:15. > :13:18.disarmament. I do not see how you can possibly achieve that, by
:13:19. > :13:23.saying, take Trident, chuck it over the border and that makes Scotland a
:13:24. > :13:33.safer place. That is utterly inane, ladies and gentlemen. How do
:13:34. > :13:37.spending ?100 billion on new nuclear weapons equate to disarmament,
:13:38. > :13:41.whether that is multilateral or unilateral? The choice we have here
:13:42. > :13:44.and a couple of weeks is do we want to be tied into ?100 billion
:13:45. > :13:48.expenditure on nuclear weapons, or do you want to take the ability not
:13:49. > :13:53.to do that in Scotland, so we can invest that money in better things,
:13:54. > :13:59.childcare, better public services... There is so much to get
:14:00. > :14:06.through, we could talk about that all night. Let's take our next
:14:07. > :14:11.question. Would taxes rise in an independent Scotland? There is no
:14:12. > :14:16.requirement for Scotland becoming independent for taxes to rise. Would
:14:17. > :14:24.they? My party has no plans to increase taxes. Governments will
:14:25. > :14:27.take decisions on taxation in budgets on an annual basis,
:14:28. > :14:31.depending on the prevailing circumstances in the economy but the
:14:32. > :14:36.reason I can say confidently that taxes do not need to go up, is we
:14:37. > :14:40.are not subsidised in Scotland. All of the public services that we
:14:41. > :14:44.enjoy, whether that is our National Health Service, pensions or any
:14:45. > :14:48.other service that are provided, they are paid for by you and I. It
:14:49. > :14:54.is just that right now we pay the taxes. That money goes to London.
:14:55. > :14:58.London decides how much of it comes back to Scotland. They spend some of
:14:59. > :15:03.it on nuclear weapons. If we were independent, we keep the taxes
:15:04. > :15:12.here. We decide the priorities for the spending of our own resources.
:15:13. > :15:18.Scotland contributed huge amount in income tax, taxes on business, and
:15:19. > :15:23.oil. It's about ?53 billion a year. Huge sum of money. You know what? We
:15:24. > :15:26.get more the matter back. 65 billion. They are the independent
:15:27. > :15:33.figures, no political party's figures. ?12 billion of additional
:15:34. > :15:38.investment here in Scotland. To break that down, ?1200 extra for
:15:39. > :15:44.every adult in Scotland, on public services than the UK average. Held
:15:45. > :15:51.on a minute. It's quite important. ?1200 extra. The question is, where
:15:52. > :15:58.is this money coming from? Scotland is 8.3% of the UK population. If the
:15:59. > :16:04.problem here not that Scotland is subsidised by the rest of UK, but
:16:05. > :16:14.it's, like the UK, is subsidised by debt? We contribute 9.1 and get back
:16:15. > :16:18.9.3. ?1200 more spent on public services in Scotland so someone has
:16:19. > :16:21.to pay these bills. What we have told by the SNP and the Yes
:16:22. > :16:27.campaign, everything will be free. They're also saying taxes will be
:16:28. > :16:32.lower. The problem with Brian and his friends, the corporation tax
:16:33. > :16:35.will be lower. You cannot build a socialist utopia in an independent
:16:36. > :16:39.Scotland on tax rates lower than George Osborne would even promise in
:16:40. > :16:51.a Tory Britain. It's unachievable. The figures don't add up. Would they
:16:52. > :16:57.rise? Someone will have to pay these bills. Setting up a separate Army,
:16:58. > :17:01.navy, air force, new tax system, a new pension system, someone has to
:17:02. > :17:05.pay the costs of independence and separation and have no idea what the
:17:06. > :17:15.cost is. Nicola and her friends won't tell us the full forecast. O.
:17:16. > :17:19.How much will it cost? It's just amazing. These numbers fly around
:17:20. > :17:23.all over the place. We've really got to ask the question, who do you
:17:24. > :17:29.trust about these numbers? Let me tell you, I really don't trust where
:17:30. > :17:34.the source of a lot of these numbers and very interesting because do you
:17:35. > :17:39.trust Westminster and the numbers they are giving us, because this is
:17:40. > :17:44.the same Westminster that use the official secrets act to cover up the
:17:45. > :17:47.McCrone report in 1979? APPLAUSE
:17:48. > :17:53.. A report which said Scotland would
:17:54. > :17:59.be a very wealthy country but they kept it secret for 30 years. Brian
:18:00. > :18:03.Souter, I'm sorry, bollard on either side particular disputes these
:18:04. > :18:05.figures. The office for National statistics figures, some of them
:18:06. > :18:12.collected by the Scottish Government. Who are you saying is
:18:13. > :18:16.hiding things here? A lot of these numbers are about how much oil will
:18:17. > :18:23.be produced. We're all tired of hearing about this to from numbers
:18:24. > :18:26.and Nicola's point is right. The reason there are differences, we are
:18:27. > :18:30.borrowing enormous numbers of debt but if you forecast for the numbers
:18:31. > :18:36.for an independent Scotland, without debt, we are in surplus every year
:18:37. > :18:41.going forward. If you go back 30 years, we have been in surplus over
:18:42. > :18:47.the 30 year period. So you are reneging on the debt? Scotland
:18:48. > :19:20.should renege on the debt? I'm making the point,
:19:21. > :19:22.balance the budget. The budget has been set out going forward. We have
:19:23. > :19:28.said when we get to break even. It's all in the white Paper going
:19:29. > :19:31.forward. Annabel Goldie. Listening to Brian's logic is like me saying
:19:32. > :19:38.I've spent my whole life wanting to be a size 12. I'm still waiting to
:19:39. > :19:42.achieve that. Because when Brian talks about the figures, there are
:19:43. > :19:46.some very important figures, not least in the White Paper. Because
:19:47. > :19:49.one page of the White Paper is devoted to an illustration of what
:19:50. > :19:53.the finances of the first year of independence might be like. The
:19:54. > :19:57.surprising thing was not by the budget deficit was brought out, we
:19:58. > :20:01.expected that. The surprising thing was how small the budget deficit
:20:02. > :20:08.was. And then it emerged that the oil revenues had been generously
:20:09. > :20:14.overestimated and expenditure had been ambitiously underestimated. So
:20:15. > :20:18.your budget deficit was smaller. John Swinney recognised something
:20:19. > :20:22.had to be done. He brought it amended oil revenue figures two or
:20:23. > :20:26.three months ago. And in these he said, OK comments that of my first
:20:27. > :20:34.year of independence revenues between 6.8 and 7.9, the first year
:20:35. > :20:39.will be ?6.9 billion. Then ?7.3 billion. Unfortunately, for him, an
:20:40. > :20:43.adviser to the Scottish Government said no, my estimate is ?2 billion
:20:44. > :20:49.less than that and that is why, to go back to the question, about what
:20:50. > :20:54.awaits us in an independent Scotland, and will taxes go up?
:20:55. > :21:02.Nicola and Brian can't tell you the cars... Nicola, you don't know. We
:21:03. > :21:08.know there will be a budget deficit. We don't know what the currency will
:21:09. > :21:11.be. We know it's going to be bigger than the percentage of GDP than the
:21:12. > :21:16.rest of the UK. We know there's going to be a black hole. The
:21:17. > :21:19.Institute for Fiscal Studies estimate of ?6 billion blackout and
:21:20. > :21:24.said it that means taxes going or cutting expenditure. And public
:21:25. > :21:30.services. You are right to be worried, Kirsty. I want to take a
:21:31. > :21:38.point from the audience. A man with a yellow LAN yard around his neck.
:21:39. > :21:44.Under SNP in Scotland, SNP manages to pack everything through the block
:21:45. > :21:51.grant from the Barnett formula so that's fine, but I can't take any
:21:52. > :21:54.facts about figures from Better Together because they put in the
:21:55. > :21:58.worst financial mess we've seen since the end of the Second World
:21:59. > :22:04.War. Thank you. The man right on the edge. The blue shirt. I would like
:22:05. > :22:11.to make the point, it's been so long ago that oil was $10 a barrel and of
:22:12. > :22:15.the large part of a Scottish revenue is derived from oil, what happens to
:22:16. > :22:24.the taxation system, and what will be the first tax which arises when
:22:25. > :22:28.oil crashes again? I just want to make point but don't think it's
:22:29. > :22:31.necessarily a bad thing taxes go up about making sure people understand
:22:32. > :22:35.why they're going up and what it's being spent on and relating that
:22:36. > :22:41.things like public services and the deficit. You think it should go up
:22:42. > :22:44.to fund changes? You can't get anything for free for 30 get what
:22:45. > :22:48.you pay for some as long as people have a good understanding of what
:22:49. > :22:55.that tax would be used for some it's not necessarily a bad thing. The SNP
:22:56. > :23:00.has indicated there expect one education, University education,
:23:01. > :23:03.being free but this influx of English students, there would be a
:23:04. > :23:09.need for more money to cover that, so surely taxes would have to rise
:23:10. > :23:14.to cover things like that? Let's not get into the detail of education
:23:15. > :23:20.policy but I do come back to that. I wanted to pick up appointed Jim
:23:21. > :23:23.made. Jim said public spending in Scotland is ?1200 higher per head
:23:24. > :23:30.than across the rest of the UK. He is right about that. In the year he
:23:31. > :23:35.took that figure, I guess is 2011-12, the tax generated per head
:23:36. > :23:40.in Scotland was ?1700 higher than the rest of the UK. The No campaign
:23:41. > :23:51.are serial misleader from a talk about finances. This Better
:23:52. > :23:55.Together... This Better Together leaflet tries to tell us about an
:23:56. > :24:01.independent Scotland would be poorer than Pakistan. And why are they
:24:02. > :24:04.seriously misleading? Because they know if they tell you the truth,
:24:05. > :24:09.that Scotland is one of the wealthiest countries in the world,
:24:10. > :24:13.the 14th richest country in the world, you would start asking why
:24:14. > :24:17.are we putting up with rising child poverty? Rising demand for food
:24:18. > :24:24.banks? Why are we putting up with cuts from the Tory Government that
:24:25. > :24:29.we did not vote for? And they know that you would conclude it was
:24:30. > :24:32.actually better to take control of our own vast resources than have
:24:33. > :24:41.them controlled by a Tory Government we didn't vote for. Jim Murphy. The
:24:42. > :24:44.woman with glasses. An independent Scotland proposed design of oil fund
:24:45. > :24:50.but surely to set the oil fund for the setup costs and running costs,
:24:51. > :24:55.will taxes not be increased? The man right in the middle with a blue
:24:56. > :25:00.shirt. We have lots of oil or lots and lots of oil? Isn't it about how
:25:01. > :25:07.we spend the money than how much we have? Jim Murphy. First of all, for
:25:08. > :25:14.the SNP's figures, they don't come close to adding up in the White
:25:15. > :25:20.Paper. They have the oil barrel price being $113. It's only been
:25:21. > :25:26.that high for four months in 2008. Nicola's point about poverty and
:25:27. > :25:34.food banks, I go to food banks in Liverpool, and hunger and poverty
:25:35. > :25:38.recognises no nationality. Whether Labour Government was in reducing
:25:39. > :25:42.the national minimum wage, the dignity of a national minimum wage,
:25:43. > :25:45.not one single SNP MP turned up to vote to introduce the legislation
:25:46. > :25:50.but yet, when Labour tries to introduce a national living wage, in
:25:51. > :25:55.the Scottish Parliament, every single SNP MSP turned up to vote
:25:56. > :26:05.that down. Spare us the lectures about social lectures. Let her
:26:06. > :26:12.speak. And as for this idea that the SNP have been open and honest, they
:26:13. > :26:16.have had a decade as a party, seven years as a Government, and two years
:26:17. > :26:19.in this campaign, and they still can't tell us what currency we are
:26:20. > :26:26.going to be using. CROWD BOOS
:26:27. > :26:32.The answer to that question is the pound but back to the living wage.
:26:33. > :26:35.The reason the Scottish Government couldn't introduce a living wage to
:26:36. > :26:39.the procurement bail was because European law says a lot like to have
:26:40. > :26:43.a living wage mandated that is higher than your minimum wage. We
:26:44. > :26:47.don't control the minimum wage in Scotland. If we were independent, we
:26:48. > :26:51.would control the minimum wage and ensure the minimum wage rose at
:26:52. > :26:53.least in line with inflation, unlike under the Westminster parties, where
:26:54. > :26:57.it has fallen behind the cost of living for them may be over time, we
:26:58. > :27:00.could get the minimum weight up to the level of the living wage as well
:27:01. > :27:09.for that we need the powers to do it first. -- minimum wage. Annabel
:27:10. > :27:20.Goldie. Very quickly. You sound more like you kept on the SNP. It's an
:27:21. > :27:22.absolute fiction. The First Minister Wales has said an independent
:27:23. > :27:27.Scotland would not be able to share a currency with Wales at Scotland
:27:28. > :27:30.becomes independent. It's not about Scotland versus England but about
:27:31. > :27:35.control of your economy, and ability to make your own decisions in your
:27:36. > :27:38.own country. The idea we be independent, keep the pound, and
:27:39. > :27:41.rely on the Bank of England, that would allow a foreign bank in a
:27:42. > :27:45.foreign country to set your mortgage rates, your car loan rate, your
:27:46. > :27:53.interest rates, what is the logic of that? OK, there's four on the panel
:27:54. > :27:58.so let's take small contributions on the outside. Brian Souter. We are
:27:59. > :28:03.getting the same batch of all the time from Better Together and we
:28:04. > :28:09.have to say, -- same rhetoric. It does not pass the comment sense
:28:10. > :28:11.test. I travelled in three different countries and did not need a
:28:12. > :28:24.passport for that you can travel right across Europe using the same
:28:25. > :28:26.currency. It's ridiculous logic. We are seeing through the
:28:27. > :28:32.scaremongering and by the way, it's not just senior Cabinet members who
:28:33. > :28:37.are saying of course there will be a currency union. I backbenchers at
:28:38. > :28:40.Westminster and they all say the same thing for the same thing before
:28:41. > :28:49.that there will be a currency union. Who? Good friends and I cannot
:28:50. > :28:55.disclose them. LAUGHTER
:28:56. > :29:03.From which parties? Conservatives. How many? I have spoken to at least
:29:04. > :29:11.one. One, then. So one Tory has spoken. I'm just going to say,
:29:12. > :29:14.Nicola was talking about a very worthy aspiration and I understand
:29:15. > :29:19.that and she says we are believers. Kirsty, we need the money.
:29:20. > :29:23.Everything Nicola wants costs money. And going back to your
:29:24. > :29:27.questions about the likely stability of the economy of an independent
:29:28. > :29:33.Scotland, through all the facts we've been able to garner, from the
:29:34. > :29:37.White Paper, look at page 75, that's the starting point. We know that
:29:38. > :29:43.there's going to be ongoing budget deficit. Alex Salmond had the sense
:29:44. > :29:48.to admit they would be ongoing budget deficits but said we would
:29:49. > :29:53.work our way out of that by expanding the workforce. We would
:29:54. > :29:56.rely on immigration to expand the workforce and contributor
:29:57. > :29:59.productivity but someone else calculated you would need to have a
:30:00. > :30:03.net migration of 24,000 people coming in and staying every year for
:30:04. > :30:10.a period of 20 years, ladies and gentlemen. Population the size of
:30:11. > :30:14.Edinburgh. That will take time to address this budget deficit. In the
:30:15. > :30:18.interim, either public expenditure will be cut taxes will go up. I
:30:19. > :30:23.would like to ask Kirsty, who originally asked this question, what
:30:24. > :30:27.she makes of this? It seems like a hundred years ago now. What you
:30:28. > :30:32.think? I don't mind of taxes rise because I know they're going back
:30:33. > :30:41.into the country I vote for. So I went mind. You will vote yes? Yes.
:30:42. > :30:46.But you would be happy to see taxes rise? Do you think will? That's what
:30:47. > :30:53.my question is for. Do you think you got anywhere? Not really. A waste of
:30:54. > :30:56.time. The next question then. Marjorie Johnson. Just before that,
:30:57. > :31:06.to remind people, you can join tonight 's debate on twitter. You
:31:07. > :31:19.can text as all e-mail us. And the BBC News website. Does the risk of a
:31:20. > :31:29.strengthened UKIP presence in Westminster pose more of a risk than
:31:30. > :31:36.independence? At the end of the day, Scotland are elected UKIP MSP,
:31:37. > :31:40.remember, it depends on the voters. There are many voters across the UK
:31:41. > :31:43.who do not support UKIP, do not support what it stands for, don't
:31:44. > :31:48.feel it is a party of any influence and don't feel it is able to deliver
:31:49. > :31:52.anything. I think the greatest threat to Scotland is the
:31:53. > :31:58.uncertainty currently being caused by the prospect of independence. And
:31:59. > :32:05.uncertainty we saw reflected in the money markets with the pound's value
:32:06. > :32:10.slipping. That is not politicians at work, that is money markets at work.
:32:11. > :32:16.I think there is a real difficulty for us. I think there is a real
:32:17. > :32:19.difficulty if we vote for separation and independence. I think there is
:32:20. > :32:24.risk, there is uncertainty and I just feel we do not have to take
:32:25. > :32:31.that risk on. We do not have to. We know what we have got. We have got a
:32:32. > :32:37.good setup with a partnership with the UK. Let's keep it. Let's not
:32:38. > :32:44.take on unnecessary risk. Brian Souter, are you worried about UKIP?
:32:45. > :32:49.I do not lay awake at night worrying about UKIP, I have to say that. But
:32:50. > :32:54.I think there is a lesson about UKIP that the main parties have to sit up
:32:55. > :32:58.and pay attention to. I think the reason why UKIP are doing so well in
:32:59. > :33:01.England is there is complete disillusionment with Westminster.
:33:02. > :33:10.There are big issues about integrity, scandals and sex abuse
:33:11. > :33:14.scandals. One thing that is interesting about this debate is a
:33:15. > :33:20.lot of people who have not been engaged up until now, and I spoke to
:33:21. > :33:27.someone started a... Just one person? She is Susan and a cleaner.
:33:28. > :33:32.She said I have not voted for 30 years but I am voting this time
:33:33. > :33:38.because this time my vote can make a difference.
:33:39. > :33:50.APPLAUSE Does the prospect of a strengthened
:33:51. > :33:54.presence at Westminster? Last week the UK Prime Minister was asked a
:33:55. > :34:00.simple question, what devolved powers would be given to Scotland
:34:01. > :34:08.and when, he said yes and soon, what is certain about that? Can we stay
:34:09. > :34:12.on UKIP for the minute? I would like to remind us all of the warnings we
:34:13. > :34:16.received at the start of this referendum period, when we were told
:34:17. > :34:20.that all the uncertainty that would be created by that would drive
:34:21. > :34:25.businesses out and would have a negative effect on the economy.
:34:26. > :34:28.Anybody living in Aberdeen cannot fail to notice the amount of
:34:29. > :34:31.building that is going on throughout the city and the number of large
:34:32. > :34:39.businesses which are investing here and the number of large headquarters
:34:40. > :34:46.which are based in Aberdeen. And is UKIP concerning you, the fact that
:34:47. > :34:52.the UK might be heading for the UK union -- European Union exit?
:34:53. > :34:58.Absolutely. I dispute the point that youth are not involved. I disagree
:34:59. > :35:03.with this. A lot of the youths that do not have an interest in politics,
:35:04. > :35:08.it is because there mother or father has mass political apathy. The
:35:09. > :35:11.reason for that is because the political apathy is coming from
:35:12. > :35:17.politics not being as accessible as it should be, for perhaps lower
:35:18. > :35:21.class, working class people who have not studied a degree at University
:35:22. > :35:28.or even studied after-school or stayed the whole time in school?
:35:29. > :35:34.Thank you Ray much for the point. Let's come back to not just UKIP but
:35:35. > :35:38.Europe in general. I do not think we should take the risk of another Tory
:35:39. > :35:44.government that we did not vote for. Even that presents a real risk to
:35:45. > :35:51.Scotland was that future in Europe. We could find ourselves taken out of
:35:52. > :35:56.Europe. That is a big enough risk. When you add UKIP into that, frankly
:35:57. > :36:00.it becomes pretty terrifying. I do not want a Tory UKIP government
:36:01. > :36:06.running my country. That is a real prospect. The key democratic
:36:07. > :36:10.argument for Scotland being independent is this one. If we are
:36:11. > :36:15.independent, we decide who governs us. If we are not independent, we
:36:16. > :36:19.continue to be at the mercy of Howard general elections across the
:36:20. > :36:24.UK go. Every single election in my lifetime has been won by Labour but
:36:25. > :36:27.for more than half my life we have had Tory government Centauri prime
:36:28. > :36:34.ministers. That is not democratic. Today we have seen Ian Lang, Malcolm
:36:35. > :36:38.Rifkind and Michael Forsyth telling us to vote No. They are tenants of
:36:39. > :36:42.Margaret Thatcher. They gave us the poll tax. They are a living
:36:43. > :36:51.embodiment of the reason to vote Yes. Annabel Goldie. As I saw from
:36:52. > :36:55.the case of the yes campaign you are given a lot of rhetoric. Since the
:36:56. > :37:00.Second World War that have been 18 governments are elected at
:37:01. > :37:05.Westminster. Out of these 18, on 13 occasions, Scotland has got the
:37:06. > :37:12.government she voted for. On only 11 occasions has the South of England
:37:13. > :37:18.got the government they voted for. Nicola is implying that somehow
:37:19. > :37:25.Scotland has been short-changed and that is why we need out of the UK.
:37:26. > :37:30.Scotland and England have been short-changed. My point is democracy
:37:31. > :37:35.means sometimes you will get the government you want and sometimes
:37:36. > :37:40.you will not. It is not a reason to reject a strong partnership. Jim
:37:41. > :37:43.Murphy. Nicola and the SNP can rightly be mown Margaret Thatcher
:37:44. > :37:49.coming to power but older viewers will remember how Margaret Thatcher
:37:50. > :37:53.came to power. It was the SMP siding with the Tories that brought Mrs
:37:54. > :37:58.Thatcher to power. The lady at the front, I am doing a debate with
:37:59. > :38:03.12,000 young people next week in Glasgow. I think to get 12,000
:38:04. > :38:07.youngsters to something which is not a concert but a political debate,
:38:08. > :38:13.shows that politics is alive and well. We were out in Glasgow at a
:38:14. > :38:18.pizza restaurant. There was a hen do next to us. They were all drinking
:38:19. > :38:23.tequilas and they were well worn. They were debating the merits of a
:38:24. > :38:26.currency union. They agreed to get drunk rather than come to an
:38:27. > :38:33.agreement that shows how powerful this debate has been. On the point
:38:34. > :38:38.about UKIP, we should not pretend that Scotland is the most welcoming
:38:39. > :38:43.nation on earth. We should not pretend. The fact is that London did
:38:44. > :38:49.not vote for a UKIP MEP but Scotland did. The fact that Scotland has been
:38:50. > :38:51.stained through the generations from occasional racism and the
:38:52. > :38:57.sectarianism that scarred our soul, we should not pretend the country,
:38:58. > :39:00.unfortunately the country is sometimes still like that, but the
:39:01. > :39:05.question is should Scotland be worried about it? I know who should
:39:06. > :39:09.be worried about UKIP. That is David Cameron. The Tories are in meltdown
:39:10. > :39:15.yet again over Europe. That highlights that David Cameron is
:39:16. > :39:19.temporary. He can be gone in a few short months. Independence is
:39:20. > :39:24.forever. Let's vote to stay in the UK this month and let's vote to kick
:39:25. > :39:31.David Cameron out next year. Brian Souter. I agree with Jim that we are
:39:32. > :39:35.enjoying the debate. Can I just remind everyone that you folks did
:39:36. > :39:41.not want us to have this debate in the first place.
:39:42. > :39:45.APPLAUSE This is about bringing democracy
:39:46. > :39:53.closer to the people. If we do get a guest vote, even people by Jim will
:39:54. > :39:59.be voted into the Scottish Parliament -- if we do get a Yes
:40:00. > :40:04.vote. Let's take a point from the man in green. I would like to ask
:40:05. > :40:10.Nicola Sturgeon how important she feels a written constitution would
:40:11. > :40:17.be in an independent Scotland? Let's try and stick to the topic. Yes? I
:40:18. > :40:23.really want to comment on always getting what you vote for. Jim
:40:24. > :40:28.Murphy made it clear, 10% of the Scottish population voted for UKIP.
:40:29. > :40:34.37% voted for either the Tories or UKIP in the last election. Whatever
:40:35. > :40:38.constituency you are, you will always have to make some
:40:39. > :40:42.compromise, you will always lose elections, you will always win
:40:43. > :40:46.elections. If I had a vote in my own house, I would not normally win it!
:40:47. > :40:50.If you cut any constituency small enough you will get what you vote
:40:51. > :40:54.for. I think the lady across here said it is OK, I will pay more tax
:40:55. > :40:59.because I know what I vote for will be the party in power. No, it will
:41:00. > :41:06.not. It will be one of the other parties in power. And can I also
:41:07. > :41:10.say... Quickly. Scotland is 10% of the UK electorate. It would be 1% of
:41:11. > :41:18.the European electorate. If you think you are going to get more
:41:19. > :41:22.power from 1% of the European electorate or 10% of the UK
:41:23. > :41:26.electorate. Thank you. Annabel mentions the south-east of England
:41:27. > :41:34.not getting who they vote for, Jim mentioned London. Are you suggesting
:41:35. > :41:40.that Scotland is a parable -- come parable to these areas. Scotland is
:41:41. > :41:48.a country. These are areas of the country. That is a fair point, isn't
:41:49. > :41:51.there a difference? It is in the context of the partnership of the
:41:52. > :41:55.United Kingdom. Some of the audience reject that partnership and find no
:41:56. > :42:01.merit in it. I respect that view. But I am pointing out it is rather a
:42:02. > :42:06.bogus argument to say trite Lee on every occasion, we do not get the
:42:07. > :42:09.governments we vote for. I am pointing out that if you accept the
:42:10. > :42:16.partnership as merit and you believe the partnership should continue,
:42:17. > :42:23.sometimes you will get the party you want, sometimes you will not, that
:42:24. > :42:28.is democracy. Jim says vote No and then vote to kick out David Cameron,
:42:29. > :42:32.the truth is, every single one of us could vote Labour but we would still
:42:33. > :42:36.not get a Labour government if England voted Tory. My second point
:42:37. > :42:39.is to agree with Brian. I would love to see Jim in the Scottish
:42:40. > :42:45.Parliament, I think he is a quality politician. I have never voted
:42:46. > :42:50.Labour so I cannot attend my views are the same as the Scottish Labour
:42:51. > :42:56.Party. If I was a Labour supporter, I would see a real merit in Scotland
:42:57. > :43:00.being independent and it is a way to reclaim my party. People like Jim
:43:01. > :43:04.would come back and the Scottish Labour Party get to be true to its
:43:05. > :43:08.own ideals, not looking over its shoulder at Westminster. If you are
:43:09. > :43:14.a Labour supporter, perhaps the best future for your own party is to vote
:43:15. > :43:18.Yes. People are offering you all sorts of things. I have been offered
:43:19. > :43:25.everyone's job apart from yours! Give it time. This point about
:43:26. > :43:28.Labour politics and Labour values and Labour vision, the Labour Party
:43:29. > :43:33.is formed with a sense of solidarity. The idea that we are
:43:34. > :43:38.stronger together and we would be weaker apart. I believe in trade
:43:39. > :43:41.unions that work. The trade union movement founded the Labour Party.
:43:42. > :43:47.Joining a trade union at work can make you better paid, make you
:43:48. > :43:52.safer, make you more influential. I believe in a social union on these
:43:53. > :43:56.islands. I do not believe in the politics of cultural conceit. The
:43:57. > :44:00.idea that changing your nationality solves all of your problems.
:44:01. > :44:05.Changing your passport has never put a penny in the pocket of a poor
:44:06. > :44:09.person anywhere in the world. I care as much about a family who are
:44:10. > :44:15.hungry, a family who are out of work, whether in Aberdeen, Liverpool
:44:16. > :44:18.or Glasgow. I do not believe in the sense of social solidarity that is
:44:19. > :44:23.an expression of that solidarity that you walk away and say you are
:44:24. > :44:27.on your own. Let's work to change our whole country, these islands.
:44:28. > :44:32.Let's make a fairer nation. Let's give rid of the Tories into the
:44:33. > :44:37.bargain. Let's not take the enormous risk with the signs of independence
:44:38. > :44:47.being promised by Nicola and the SNP. Thank you. Let's take another
:44:48. > :44:53.question. What is better for higher education, independence or the
:44:54. > :44:57.union? What is better for higher education, independence or staying
:44:58. > :45:01.in the union? I think there is a straightforward answer to that. If
:45:02. > :45:06.you want to continue with free education then you need to vote for
:45:07. > :45:10.independence. It is really elementary. Our vision for a new
:45:11. > :45:15.Scotland is so different from what is happening in the Westminster
:45:16. > :45:20.Parliament. If you look at it over the last 35 years, we have pumped
:45:21. > :45:23.our oil revenues to Westminster in this gets together concept. What
:45:24. > :45:29.have we got out of this deal in return? We have ended up with the
:45:30. > :45:34.poll tax, the bedroom tax, we have ended up with a nuclear arsenal
:45:35. > :45:39.outside our biggest city. It does not seem like a big deal for me. I
:45:40. > :45:43.think the only way to sustain free education is to pull the levers that
:45:44. > :45:47.we have ourselves, take control, take the levers of the economy that
:45:48. > :45:51.we need to do this. It is interesting this idea of what is
:45:52. > :45:55.your vision for Scotland, how are we going to deliver this and Annabel's
:45:56. > :46:00.point about how we will pay for this. The reason why there is a 3%
:46:01. > :46:06.corporation tax is not to help rich people, it is to create 30,000 jobs
:46:07. > :46:10.and attract a whole lot of companies to locate in Scotland because that
:46:11. > :46:15.is good for us. Our vision is we want to create a dynamic economy
:46:16. > :46:18.where entrepreneurs can operate and generate wealth in Scotland and then
:46:19. > :46:22.we want to distribute that wealth and deal with the social justice
:46:23. > :46:29.issues and take the 200,000 children we have in poverty. If you want to
:46:30. > :46:33.make these decisions, if you sign up to that vision, you will never
:46:34. > :46:38.fulfil it as long as we are stuck in the Westminster system.
:46:39. > :46:42.APPLAUSE The question is whether independence
:46:43. > :46:48.or staying in the UK is better for higher education. Isn't education
:46:49. > :46:52.already devolved to Scotland so we have already got that. We do not
:46:53. > :46:56.need to be an independent Scotland to have control over our education.
:46:57. > :47:04.APPLAUSE OK, we will take a couple more. The
:47:05. > :47:07.man in the second row back. Nicola, can you guarantee that higher
:47:08. > :47:11.education would be free in an independent Scotland? We will come
:47:12. > :47:20.to that in a minute. There is a man at the back. Just listening to Brian
:47:21. > :47:27.Souter, I went to school in the 60s is though, the first in my family to
:47:28. > :47:32.go university, in my street, 20 council houses. Kids went to
:47:33. > :47:37.university for the first time. My dad died, I got a grant, there were
:47:38. > :47:41.no student loans and the lady down there is correct. Brian Souter,
:47:42. > :47:45.education has been devolved in Scotland. There will not be any
:47:46. > :47:49.different between being devolved and independent but what will happen
:47:50. > :47:53.under independence is we will have to fund the English students and
:47:54. > :48:02.there will be big cuts in grants if you listen to Professor Pennington
:48:03. > :48:05.speaking. Directly to the gentleman who was just spoken, education
:48:06. > :48:08.policy is devolved, and that's why we have got free education in
:48:09. > :48:13.Scotland but we don't control the size of our budget and it's been cut
:48:14. > :48:17.by 7% over the last few years. George Osborne has told us, ?25
:48:18. > :48:23.billion more cuts coming so if we want to protect the things that
:48:24. > :48:27.really matter to us, including free education, then we need to control
:48:28. > :48:30.the budget and we will only get that with independence. I get quite
:48:31. > :48:33.passionate, as I know a lot of people do when I talk about free
:48:34. > :48:38.education, because it's very personal for me. I grew up in a
:48:39. > :48:41.working-class family, with the privilege of a university education
:48:42. > :48:45.and I know if I had to pay tuition fees, I wouldn't have been able to
:48:46. > :48:54.go to university, not because my parents were not done anything in
:48:55. > :48:57.their power to send me but it would have been impossible and I feel so
:48:58. > :48:59.strongly that, having had that privilege as a politician now, and
:49:00. > :49:01.able to sit here partly because about free education, I have no
:49:02. > :49:04.right to pull that ladder of opportunity up behind me and I will
:49:05. > :49:07.never be part of anything in politics which takes that away. You
:49:08. > :49:11.was here, in reference to this, if you become independent, we will have
:49:12. > :49:16.to give free education to students coming from England, I don't want to
:49:17. > :49:24.charge anybody to go to university wherever they come from, but we have
:49:25. > :49:27.to do that now and we would have to continue to do it because
:49:28. > :49:33.Westminster has imposed sky-high tuition fees and the rest of the UK.
:49:34. > :49:38.If only 10% of students from England came to Scotland to take advantage
:49:39. > :49:43.of free education, it would take 80% of our places. The issue of European
:49:44. > :49:49.law has been raised. You can make an objective justification to justify
:49:50. > :49:51.something that would otherwise against European law and that's what
:49:52. > :49:58.we will do for the reasons I have just set out. That's why I can say
:49:59. > :50:01.to you if my party is in Government we will always protect free
:50:02. > :50:10.education because it's one of the most important thing is any
:50:11. > :50:17.Government can ever do. Jim Murphy. Coming directly to the question
:50:18. > :50:22.there, we have still got far too much inequality in our country. Here
:50:23. > :50:26.in Scotland, under devolution, the fact is there's too many families
:50:27. > :50:29.who still struggle, those who go out to work and still struggle, but
:50:30. > :50:34.what's most important journey anyone ever makes a life? It's from the
:50:35. > :50:39.labour ward in which you were born to your first home. The Kurds that
:50:40. > :50:45.determine of class, that short journey is such a remarkable
:50:46. > :50:51.influence on your diet, education, your earnings, where you study.
:50:52. > :50:59.Surely we want a world where people don't inherit that sense of
:51:00. > :51:03.emotional and material poverty? How do you create a more just society?
:51:04. > :51:10.We all want a system where, no matter where you are born, you can
:51:11. > :51:16.progress in life equally, but when we are being offered a set of
:51:17. > :51:24.economic 's that's so based on oil, oil revenue fell by over ?4 billion
:51:25. > :51:30.in just one year, there's no point brewing, ladies and gentlemen, it's
:51:31. > :51:32.a fact. It felt by ?4 billion in one year -- brewing. That's the entire
:51:33. > :51:40.Scottish schools budget. -- brewing. We have devolution already. We can
:51:41. > :51:48.have free tuition fees in Scotland already. The best of both worlds,
:51:49. > :51:56.strong Scottish Parliament without having to leave the UK. The man in
:51:57. > :52:02.blue. Nicola just promised us that we would not see rises in tuition
:52:03. > :52:07.fees at all. In Scotland. Can you make the same promise for us if we
:52:08. > :52:13.were to stick with devolution? In one word. Each political party will
:52:14. > :52:21.say in the next Scottish election what their priorities will be. What
:52:22. > :52:26.does your party say? We will set out our manifesto in the next election.
:52:27. > :52:33.This is much more important than one manifesto or one election. I want to
:52:34. > :52:46.hear more on this. The woman in the blue and white top. Nicola, you are
:52:47. > :52:50.saying, in under your block, English students would come here for
:52:51. > :52:57.education, but will implement within EU law, will involve the rest of the
:52:58. > :53:05.EU countries coming into this country to generate income? Taking a
:53:06. > :53:11.part-time labour. If your going to charge the English, don't the charge
:53:12. > :53:15.everybody else? We are not blocking anyone. We want English students to
:53:16. > :53:21.study here. But we have to protect places for our own students. Most
:53:22. > :53:24.European countries don't charge the tuition fees they charge in England.
:53:25. > :53:30.In Germany, they are getting rid of them. This is about a policy imposed
:53:31. > :53:33.on us because of Westminster decisions. I thought was very
:53:34. > :53:38.telling that Jim could not give you a guarantee, even a Labour
:53:39. > :53:42.Government in a devolved parliament, would not introduce tuition fees. If
:53:43. > :53:47.I was a young person right now, that would worry me greatly so I hope
:53:48. > :53:53.everybody heard that. The woman at the back. They say it's all about
:53:54. > :53:58.how we're going to pay through everything like education. If we are
:53:59. > :54:03.in charge of our economy, all the revenues, we can make all the
:54:04. > :54:07.decisions about how we spend money in Scotland. We don't have to spend
:54:08. > :54:15.it on Trident. We can have free education and a good NHS. Thank you.
:54:16. > :54:18.We're talking about education and higher education is not just about
:54:19. > :54:21.teaching but research done to promote that teaching. There's been
:54:22. > :54:25.a lot of conversation about how potentially there could be a funding
:54:26. > :54:32.gap in case the UK research Council stops funding Scottish university
:54:33. > :54:39.research. Does the SNP have a plan B in case that happens? We need to
:54:40. > :54:42.come to Annabel Goldie. The original question was about free education
:54:43. > :54:50.but what is higher education going to face through independence or
:54:51. > :54:54.remaining in the UK? This young gentleman has raised an important
:54:55. > :54:59.point because we know at the moment, we're getting from UK research, 13%
:55:00. > :55:04.of these monies, higher than our population share would merit. I know
:55:05. > :55:07.university principals who regard that as very important and
:55:08. > :55:12.significant. I also know that within academia, there is concern about the
:55:13. > :55:18.viability of our continued funding of higher education. Nicola says Jim
:55:19. > :55:23.doesn't have a policy that these are devolved issues, nothing to do with
:55:24. > :55:26.constitutional change. When we have a Scottish Parliament election
:55:27. > :55:29.begins at the state policies, make your own mind up, and vote the
:55:30. > :55:37.parties you want and ignore the ones you don't want. On the question of
:55:38. > :55:42.funding, I wrote to the parties to find another position on is and I'm
:55:43. > :55:47.afraid what Annabel Goldie has said does not agree with the reply I got
:55:48. > :55:55.from the Conservative Party budget. In the UK, we have the lowest
:55:56. > :55:59.percentage GDP investment directly in scientific research from the
:56:00. > :56:06.Government of any developed country. That's quite shocking. Thank you. We
:56:07. > :56:08.do well out of UK research funding because the summer the best
:56:09. > :56:11.researchers doing the best research, and that's going to change. It's
:56:12. > :56:18.about a third of research funding which comes from the UK research
:56:19. > :56:21.Council. The principle Robert Gordon University who wrote an article in
:56:22. > :56:26.the Guardian yesterday, he stated that the independence was a threat
:56:27. > :56:29.to research funding. He is presumably one of the expert you're
:56:30. > :56:34.talking about. That is his view and I think that counts for a lot. You
:56:35. > :56:34.literally have ten seconds, Jim Murphy.
:56:35. > :56:42.APPLAUSE This is wishful thinking.
:56:43. > :56:47.The idea the rest of the UK would be a foreign country to Scotland and
:56:48. > :56:50.will fund research in an independent Scotland is fanciful. It out of the
:56:51. > :56:55.same job at the vile made within two to build warships on the River
:56:56. > :56:59.Clyde. Its entire wishful thinking. We can't but livelihoods, the
:57:00. > :57:03.funding of universities or shipbuilding jobs at risk because
:57:04. > :57:08.the SNP tell you it's all going to be OK on the right. Let's not worry.
:57:09. > :57:13.Thank you all very much. I'm afraid that's all we have got time for. Our
:57:14. > :57:18.final programme will be in Stirling on the 14th, the last Sunday before
:57:19. > :57:24.the referendum. Our panel will include Elaine Smith, and labour
:57:25. > :57:27.Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Ickes and amongst other. My thanks
:57:28. > :57:28.to our panel and our audience and from the music Hall in Aberdeen,
:57:29. > :57:33.good night.