:00:09. > :00:14.Welcome to The Referendum Debate. It's less than five months until
:00:15. > :00:19.Scotland has to make a big mind. We are here in Kirkwall on Orkney, to
:00:20. > :00:20.see if our panel and audience can help the nation reach its biggest
:00:21. > :00:47.ever decision. On our panel tonight, one elected
:00:48. > :00:51.politician and one campaigner from each side of the debate. The
:00:52. > :00:55.Scottish government Minister for youth employment, Angela Constance
:00:56. > :00:59.MSP. Also backing big yes vote tonight is broadcaster and
:01:00. > :01:05.journalist Lesley Riddoch. A former UK Energy Minister, Brian Wilson.
:01:06. > :01:12.And the Scottish Secretary and Shetland and Orkney MP, Alistair
:01:13. > :01:16.Carmichael. Welcome to Kirkwall. The light of the North, Saint Magnus
:01:17. > :01:20.Cathedral, the most northerly in Britain. Founded by the Saints
:01:21. > :01:25.nephew to win Orcadian hearts in a power struggle for the islands,
:01:26. > :01:29.nearly 900 years later the result of this political piety still dominates
:01:30. > :01:36.the Kirkwall skyline. The Norsemen who rolled this archipelago till the
:01:37. > :01:37.15th century left who rolled this archipelago till the
:01:38. > :01:42.other ways, too. But the biggest influence on these exposed sandstone
:01:43. > :01:47.islands was wind, wave and tied. Today, islanders are turning the
:01:48. > :01:51.tables and trying to harness that power. Orkney is at the heart of
:01:52. > :01:56.efforts to produce renewable energy. It is the latest plan for people who
:01:57. > :02:02.like to make their own decisions. Orkney feels a long way from London
:02:03. > :02:06.and Edinburgh. As ever, our audience tonight are an even mix of those for
:02:07. > :02:09.and against independence, plus a large minority who are undecided. If
:02:10. > :02:20.you want to join the debate at home, you can get involved on
:02:21. > :02:24.Twitter. The questions have been submitted that the panellists have
:02:25. > :02:31.not seen them. The first question is from Leslie Burgher. Would Scottish
:02:32. > :02:35.independence be cataclysmic for the Western world? Watt a reference to
:02:36. > :02:41.Lord George Robertson, his quote that it would be cataclysmic. Would
:02:42. > :02:45.it be, Alistair Carmichael? I don't think that would be a term I would
:02:46. > :02:49.use myself, but we have to be realistic that in fact, this is our
:02:50. > :02:54.decision to take as Scots. We said right at the start that this was a
:02:55. > :02:58.referendum that would be made in Scotland, decided by the people in
:02:59. > :03:03.Scotland. Let's not ignore the fact it will have repercussions for
:03:04. > :03:07.people both in the rest of the UK and in other parts of Europe and the
:03:08. > :03:12.Western world as well. If you consider, for example, the question
:03:13. > :03:17.of EU membership. It is pretty clear that a lot of the members of the
:03:18. > :03:22.European Union currently have got part of their countries that are
:03:23. > :03:26.looking also to secede. They will be looking very carefully at what we do
:03:27. > :03:30.in Scotland. They will have a view on it, should we vote to be
:03:31. > :03:35.independent. I think what he was referring to is the global power
:03:36. > :03:38.balance. Is he simply wrong to say it would be cataclysmic in
:03:39. > :03:43.geopolitical terms, that it would be a torrid, conflicts, difficult and
:03:44. > :03:49.debilitating divorce, that the forces of darkness would simply love
:03:50. > :03:55.it, is that wrong? It would be a very difficult disengagement... Is
:03:56. > :03:58.that sensible? The UK is not just any country. We are one of the
:03:59. > :04:02.leading countries on the world stage, we have the world's
:04:03. > :04:07.second-largest international aid budget. We are a permanent member of
:04:08. > :04:12.the United Nations Security Council. When you start to pick a nation that
:04:13. > :04:18.has a position like that on the world stage then, guess, people will
:04:19. > :04:23.look at it carefully and they will be following the debate carefully.
:04:24. > :04:28.Angela Constance, cataclysmic? I think George Robertson's comments
:04:29. > :04:32.were utterly over the top. The first time when I heard his comments I
:04:33. > :04:36.thought he was talking about a Star Wars film, the battle between good
:04:37. > :04:41.and evil. A more serious point is actually, I don't think his
:04:42. > :04:45.comments, and it's very sad because he used to represent a Scottish
:04:46. > :04:53.constituency, that his comments don't reflect well on Scotland or
:04:54. > :04:56.indeed the rest of the UK. We have a civic nationalist movement in
:04:57. > :05:00.Scotland. We have the Edinburgh agreement, both the UK Government
:05:01. > :05:04.and the Scottish government have worked together and will agree,
:05:05. > :05:10.whatever the outcome of the referendum. We have a peaceful,
:05:11. > :05:15.democratic process, the most exciting debate that has taken place
:05:16. > :05:20.about Scotland's future. I just think the comments were over the top
:05:21. > :05:26.come out of touch and actually don't portray Scotland or the rest of the
:05:27. > :05:30.UK in a good light. That has to be regretted because people on both
:05:31. > :05:36.sides of the border respect the wishes of each other. I believe in
:05:37. > :05:43.independence for many, many reasons, but it's because I want to do good
:05:44. > :05:47.at home and abroad. I believe in the power and influence of small nations
:05:48. > :05:52.working together and not just to make Scotland a better place but the
:05:53. > :05:56.world that we all live in and the world that we share a far better,
:05:57. > :06:06.more peaceful and prosperous place. Brian Wilson. I was in the United
:06:07. > :06:11.States last week and I didn't find much sign of a cataclysm in
:06:12. > :06:18.people's responses. What I did find was puzzlement. Anyone who'd heard,
:06:19. > :06:23.a small minority of Americans, these questions, why is this going on, why
:06:24. > :06:27.are you doing this? Is it about religion? No, it's not about
:06:28. > :06:33.religion. But you speak the same language. Yes, we do. Your economies
:06:34. > :06:38.must be very integrated. Yes, our economies are integrated. So what's
:06:39. > :06:42.it about? It's fairly mirrored my own quick question, really, but cos
:06:43. > :06:47.there is so much that binds us together. Why are we doing this? I
:06:48. > :06:53.don't think we should get too hung up on a word, cataclysm, but I don't
:06:54. > :06:56.think you can say on the one hand it's a very big thing and on the
:06:57. > :07:00.other hand it's a very small thing. They try to sell to us that
:07:01. > :07:05.everything will go on as before. Everything won't go on as before. A
:07:06. > :07:10.lot of people are watching this with great care. The question of the EU,
:07:11. > :07:14.which George also touched on, is very significant. Every country
:07:15. > :07:18.virtually in Europe does have its own potential secessionist movement.
:07:19. > :07:22.So when you get to the question of continuing EU membership, which is
:07:23. > :07:26.so important to this whole debate, so important to the fishing
:07:27. > :07:30.industry, for instance, which yesterday expressed its doubt are so
:07:31. > :07:33.many industries. You've got to look at it not just from a Scottish point
:07:34. > :07:39.of view, why we would want to be continuing in the EU, you have to
:07:40. > :07:43.look at it from the point of view of other EU member states to say, what
:07:44. > :07:47.message is going to be sent out here if our secessionist movements can
:07:48. > :07:51.say that we leave one day and then we leave one day and then become
:07:52. > :07:54.back into the EU the next day? That is causing major implications for
:07:55. > :07:56.these countries. That's not exaggerate but let's not understate
:07:57. > :08:01.either the interests that are at stake here, not just for Scotland
:08:02. > :08:06.but for the rest of Europe as well. A lot of people are watching for
:08:07. > :08:10.that reason. I will take a few points. Then we will come down to
:08:11. > :08:17.Lesley Riddoch. The man at the back. George Robertson was of course about
:08:18. > :08:23.defence. Is a policy of losing Trident and staying in NATO actually
:08:24. > :08:28.coherent, or is it just making policy by opinion poll? We will come
:08:29. > :08:35.onto that in a moment. Let's come down here to the man the second row.
:08:36. > :08:39.The first Sea Lord has said today that the Navy would be greatly
:08:40. > :08:45.weakened by independence. Here in Orkney we have the great naval base.
:08:46. > :08:53.What I want to know is, will this be still available after an independent
:08:54. > :08:58.Scotland for the Royal Navy, for the defence of Great Britain? Thank
:08:59. > :09:01.you. The woman in the middle. Is this not just the establishment
:09:02. > :09:06.clinging on to the last vestiges of an empire that is in decline and
:09:07. > :09:11.quickly heading towards its end? And the intemperate language that is
:09:12. > :09:16.being used is really quite pathetic. The truth is it's not a cataclysm.
:09:17. > :09:21.It is a catalyst for positive change, not just in this country of
:09:22. > :09:26.Scotland but all other countries within the UK and the wider world.
:09:27. > :09:30.It's shameful really to bring in the EU debate into this, because both
:09:31. > :09:34.these Unionist politicians on the panel know well that the
:09:35. > :09:38.secessionist argument is irrelevant in terms of re-negotiation or access
:09:39. > :09:48.on. There are two clear routes but no precedent. Quite a bit to get
:09:49. > :09:53.into there. Lesley Riddoch, to come back to the question. Do you agree
:09:54. > :09:58.with Lord Robertson's suggestion that it would be cataclysmic? I
:09:59. > :10:03.probably can guess your answer. I worry for George. He had a thing a
:10:04. > :10:07.couple of months ago where he came out with Scotland would begin a
:10:08. > :10:11.Balkanisation of Europe, now we've got this cataclysm for the Western
:10:12. > :10:16.world. It's almost as if he's getting frightened of his own
:10:17. > :10:20.shadow. I just find this absolutely extraordinary. It made me think
:10:21. > :10:25.sometimes when you put fireworks out, you forget you put them out and
:10:26. > :10:29.then they go off on their own. This seems to me what this is like now,
:10:30. > :10:32.it's almost like a lack of orchestration. There's been
:10:33. > :10:37.agreement by lots of commentators, even within Better Together, that
:10:38. > :10:39.that campaign has been overwhelmingly negative and been
:10:40. > :10:44.totally scaremongering. After everyone has kind of agree, OK, it
:10:45. > :10:50.would be good if you could be a bit more positive, off goes George on
:10:51. > :10:56.one and then goes Justine Greening on one about international aid.
:10:57. > :11:01.When, as somebody has already mentioned, we are way behind
:11:02. > :11:07.Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Luxembourg and Ireland in the amount of aid we
:11:08. > :11:11.gave. So it's not a cataclysm. As has been suggested, you could look
:11:12. > :11:14.at it differently. We are going to have a peaceful, democratic
:11:15. > :11:18.resolution of a long-standing issue. However it is resolved, that
:11:19. > :11:24.the white dash back that is the right way to resolve it. Alistair
:11:25. > :11:30.Carmichael. Isn't the point here that this kind of language is
:11:31. > :11:35.exactly what your campaign for the union had already, as Leslie says,
:11:36. > :11:38.decided to stop doing because it was counter-productive? Whether or not
:11:39. > :11:44.you think it is cataclysmic, it is bad politics from your point of
:11:45. > :11:48.view. I will say this about the language. It is unfortunate. If we
:11:49. > :11:52.are sitting here talking about whether it is cataclysmic or not,
:11:53. > :11:56.because there are some really substantial, serious issues here.
:11:57. > :12:01.Isn't that your fault and your site's fault in this argument? It's
:12:02. > :12:04.not that long since the First Minister was in London telling
:12:05. > :12:08.people of London that he lived in the dark Star. That he was talking
:12:09. > :12:13.about the rest of the UK having thieved Scotland's oil. There has
:12:14. > :12:17.been intemperate rant which on both sides of this debate. Frankly, it
:12:18. > :12:22.doesn't really help us have the sort of debate that we need and that
:12:23. > :12:28.Scotland deserves. Brian Wilson, do you agree with that? I do want to
:12:29. > :12:32.stick to the question, which is about Lord Robertson's comments,
:12:33. > :12:37.that these are damaging the campaign for the union? In the wider
:12:38. > :12:45.context, all the negative than positive is, I think it's largely a
:12:46. > :12:47.word game. One man or woman's negative is a positive. I'm
:12:48. > :12:52.incredibly positive about all the things that have conditioned my
:12:53. > :12:57.lifetime, that have given me my lifetime opportunities. The NHS, the
:12:58. > :13:01.welfare state, the clearance of slum housing, the copper heads of
:13:02. > :13:06.education, University education, for which I was certainly the first in
:13:07. > :13:09.my family. All of these things I'm incredibly positive about and they
:13:10. > :13:13.were achieved by gradual reform in this country. They were achieved not
:13:14. > :13:16.just for people in Scotland from my kind of background, but in every
:13:17. > :13:19.part of the United Kingdom. I'm incredibly positive about these
:13:20. > :13:23.things and I don't want to see them broken up. On the other hand, I can
:13:24. > :13:28.think of nothing more negative than breaking up a small island into
:13:29. > :13:31.separate states in the second decade of the 21st-century. Positive and
:13:32. > :13:37.negative can be played in both ways. I'll just come back to the point
:13:38. > :13:41.about the first Sea Lord. I don't usually read articles like that but
:13:42. > :13:45.I did today. It's a very measured argument. It's not threatening or
:13:46. > :13:49.intimidating anyone, it's not about fear. It's making a statement of
:13:50. > :13:53.fact that there is a very closely integrated Navy which has been built
:13:54. > :13:57.up over hundreds of years. And if you start breaking it up then it's
:13:58. > :14:07.not just a case of dividing the ships, there's jobs, training,
:14:08. > :14:09.procurement, bases, the fact that the Navy, it's not all about
:14:10. > :14:11.warfare, it involved just now for the hunt for the Malaysian plane,
:14:12. > :14:14.humanitarian work. You are breaking all of that between Scotland and
:14:15. > :14:18.what would be left of the United Kingdom. Is that positive, negative,
:14:19. > :14:21.does it matter? It's a subjective judgment. Whether it's a good thing
:14:22. > :14:27.to do and whether it's worth doing, I don't think it's a good thing to
:14:28. > :14:34.do, others will disagree. Angela Constance, briefly, isn't there a
:14:35. > :14:37.point here that no matter what your opponents say, you just simply say
:14:38. > :14:43.it is negative and dismissive rather than engaging in debate? The track
:14:44. > :14:53.record of the no campaign on project fear is their terminology, it's not
:14:54. > :14:59.mine... I think it's a term they've tried to pin. Some of the points of
:15:00. > :15:08.debate that have been raised. Brian mentioned the welfare state. We are
:15:09. > :15:12.talking about defence at the moment. The welfare state is being
:15:13. > :15:17.dismantled, free education is protected by the Scottish parliament
:15:18. > :15:21.and a fact about defence is it is this UK Government, and it's Philip
:15:22. > :15:28.Hammond who has come to Scotland and his hypocrisy is breathtaking, when
:15:29. > :15:32.he has absolutely slashed conventional spending, including
:15:33. > :15:36.naval resources in this country. 10,000 jobs, military defence jobs
:15:37. > :15:40.have been lost in Scotland. Nearly 40% of the defence cuts have taken
:15:41. > :15:46.place in Scotland. Then Philip Hammond plays a flying visit, I've
:15:47. > :15:51.heard the phrase Tory tourist minister, won't even stay for a
:15:52. > :15:57.proper debate. Comes up, gives us a lecture about defence. Perhaps he
:15:58. > :15:59.should be apologising to the Armed Forces who, whilst serving their
:16:00. > :16:10.country, have been given redundancy notices. Thank you very much indeed.
:16:11. > :16:17.A point about Trident? I wasn't going to. It is a legitimate
:16:18. > :16:20.question. Do it in 20 seconds. The white paper paper tells us that an
:16:21. > :16:26.independent Scotland is to be part of NATO. Part of being in NATO is
:16:27. > :16:29.you have to accept the nuclear concept. At the same time we are
:16:30. > :16:33.told in the White Paper that we will not have Trident, we will have no
:16:34. > :16:37.nuclear weapons. What we are being headed towards and this is in the
:16:38. > :16:45.White Paper, a situation where actually the compromise will be that
:16:46. > :16:49.Scotland may well have nuclear weapons, within our territorial
:16:50. > :16:55.waters, but that's OK as long as nobody tells us. It is a new take on
:16:56. > :17:01.don't ask, don't tell. APPLAUSE
:17:02. > :17:06.Only three countries in NATO out of 28 currently have nuclear weapons.
:17:07. > :17:12.No. No, we're leaving it there, thank you very much. We have got to
:17:13. > :17:17.move on. Thank you very much. Right, we are going to move on to
:17:18. > :17:21.the next question because otherwise we will only talk about one thing
:17:22. > :17:26.all night. We will go to Meg Telfer. Meg Telfer has our next question.
:17:27. > :17:31.Will Nicola Sturgeon's call to the Scottish Labour Party to reclaim its
:17:32. > :17:37.roots fall on deaf ears? I best put that to Brian Wilson.
:17:38. > :17:43.Well, you know, you take your pick. You go back just about a month and
:17:44. > :17:49.there is a little video, it is worth looking at in which you see Alex
:17:50. > :17:51.Salmond snarling out in Holyrood after independence, it will be
:17:52. > :17:56.Labour no more and then you have Nicola Sturgeon say like the spider
:17:57. > :18:01.to the fly, "Come into the parlour and we will reclaim your roots for
:18:02. > :18:07.you." Nicola Sturgeon has spent her life denying and denigrating
:18:08. > :18:11.anything that Labour Governments achieved. Why anyone should place
:18:12. > :18:17.their trust in Nicola Sturgeon to seek the soul of the Labour Party, I
:18:18. > :18:21.don't know. But what in fact... APPLAUSE
:18:22. > :18:26.In fact, you know, it is a superficial level, it might dupe
:18:27. > :18:31.some people. If you look at it, it is nonsense, what it does is, one it
:18:32. > :18:36.would create in the rest of the United Kingdom, the probablity of
:18:37. > :18:39.permanent right-wing Government, certainly more right-wing
:18:40. > :18:42.Government. The nationalist objective is whether they get it or
:18:43. > :18:47.not is that the rest of the United Kingdom would still be setting our
:18:48. > :18:51.interest rates, our financial parameters, they would be our
:18:52. > :18:56.financial masters, but it would be under a permanent Tory Government.
:18:57. > :19:00.They would be setting the immigration policy which Scotland
:19:01. > :19:03.would - you wouldn't have a Labour Government Government in Scotland,
:19:04. > :19:08.you would have a nationalist Government. What happened in Ireland
:19:09. > :19:10.that politics would continue to be divided along constitutional lines
:19:11. > :19:13.and where you stood on the constitution rather than what I
:19:14. > :19:17.believe to be the natural divide in society which is on the basis of
:19:18. > :19:23.social and economic interests and that is what we are being lulled
:19:24. > :19:28.into in which there is a false thing of nationalism and independence
:19:29. > :19:34.versus the identity politics versus who oppose that kind of politics. I
:19:35. > :19:39.guess that call to get back to the question, Meg's question, will fall
:19:40. > :19:43.on some deaf ears because sadly we are so divided. This must surely be
:19:44. > :19:47.a regret for everybody. We could probably agree on that, because in
:19:48. > :19:51.many respects all us of on this panel probably agree on far, far
:19:52. > :19:56.more than we would ever disagree on and yet our politics don't reflect
:19:57. > :20:01.that. We have a situation where we can't really hear one another. We
:20:02. > :20:05.can't pick up examples and I think we can't think larger than these
:20:06. > :20:11.islands. Since I wasn't able to say something about NATO, I will weave
:20:12. > :20:21.this in, it has an impact on Labour. There is a larger socio demographic.
:20:22. > :20:27.The new head of NATO was the Prime Minister of Norway. That country has
:20:28. > :20:34.a different outlook about nuclear weapons. It doesn't have them. Yet,
:20:35. > :20:38.it is our new head of NATO as that kind of politician and somebody who
:20:39. > :20:43.is seen, the provision of welfare, the establishment of equality, the
:20:44. > :20:48.maintenance of social solidarity, words we just think are open toed
:20:49. > :20:53.sandaled in this country. Those are the thing that put that country to
:20:54. > :20:58.the top of every league table and at the same time, has made it a triple
:20:59. > :21:02.credit A rated country. So they are not doing too badly on the money
:21:03. > :21:07.front either. To me, that is the kind of party I would like to vote
:21:08. > :21:10.for. Do you call it Labour? Do you call it the SNP? I don't know, but
:21:11. > :21:18.that's what I would like for this country and I would like a party
:21:19. > :21:24.that unashly espouse those values in whatever set-up we end up with after
:21:25. > :21:27.18th September. APPLAUSE
:21:28. > :21:34.Thank you. Please do put your hands up. Please
:21:35. > :21:38.get involved if you have a comment to make. First of all, Angela
:21:39. > :21:43.Constance, isn't Brian Wilson right? You have fought and battled and said
:21:44. > :21:46.anything to do down the Labour Party for years and years and suddenly,
:21:47. > :21:54.you are their best friends. What's going on? Listen, I have known many
:21:55. > :21:57.people throughout my political life who have been active in the Labour
:21:58. > :22:00.Party, who have been members of the Labour Party. Some of them I would
:22:01. > :22:05.consider friends and some of those people come from backgrounds I grew
:22:06. > :22:09.up in a mining village, the issues that brought me into politics, was
:22:10. > :22:13.the need for a Scottish Parliament, but a Scottish Parliament that could
:22:14. > :22:17.tackle issues such as unemployment. I have been conscious that
:22:18. > :22:23.particularly in terms of Labour voters, you know, are people who
:22:24. > :22:26.have much -- who I have much in common with, but there are
:22:27. > :22:30.disagreements in terms of how best to achieve social justice? And what
:22:31. > :22:35.Nicola Sturgeon was saying at the weekend and I think this is one of
:22:36. > :22:41.the most heartening things about the independence debate going on just
:22:42. > :22:45.now is that the Yes Campaign is inclusive. It is a broad church. It
:22:46. > :22:50.is people of all political parties and of none and the most exciting
:22:51. > :22:55.thing about it and politicians of all parties may or may not like
:22:56. > :23:01.this, it is a grass-roots campaign and I have known that all my
:23:02. > :23:04.political life and I have known there has been high levels of
:23:05. > :23:09.support for independence amongst traditial Labour voters. Let me go
:23:10. > :23:14.back to Meg Telfer who asked the question. If you want to contribute
:23:15. > :23:17.keep your hands in the air. Meg, what do you think is the answer to
:23:18. > :23:22.the question? Heavens. I agree. I just agree with
:23:23. > :23:25.Lesley. LAUGHTER
:23:26. > :23:29.She is the new Nick Clegg! LAUGHTER
:23:30. > :23:32.She does not take that as a compliment!
:23:33. > :23:37.The woman with the glasses. The woman with the glasses in the middle
:23:38. > :23:43.and the blond hair, yes. I thought the yes and No Campaign was about a
:23:44. > :23:47.nation voting for independence, not about a Labour Party or SNP or
:23:48. > :23:52.Conservative or who is there going to be in control after 18th
:23:53. > :23:56.September, I thought this was about a country voting for what they want,
:23:57. > :24:01.not what party they want because there is people in the Labour Party,
:24:02. > :24:07.Green Party, Conservative Party, SNP, some vote yes, some vote no.
:24:08. > :24:14.This is about a nation, not about political parties. Thank you.
:24:15. > :24:20.APPLAUSE My question was around the fact that
:24:21. > :24:24.come, if it is a yes vote, will the SNP seize to be given that they have
:24:25. > :24:32.completed their objective. I would like the panel to answer that,
:24:33. > :24:36.please. You won't cease to be? No. Good, thank you!
:24:37. > :24:40.Moving on! They say not. Yes, the man in the middle with the glasses.
:24:41. > :24:46.Yes? I wanted to state that I think we
:24:47. > :24:50.would put more weight behind Brian Wilson's comments about having a
:24:51. > :24:55.right-wing Government in the rest of the UK forever more if we gain
:24:56. > :25:02.independence if the Labour Party were put in a more effective
:25:03. > :25:08.opposition at Westminster. I feel that they had the opportunity to
:25:09. > :25:11.vote on the bedroom tax a short while ago and they failed to do
:25:12. > :25:16.that. A lot of Scottish Labour MPs in the vote there. Thank you.
:25:17. > :25:19.Alistair Carmichael, isn't the point here that the point that Nicola
:25:20. > :25:24.Sturgeon was trying to make in her speech is not that, if you do want
:25:25. > :25:27.to make a decision about your political future, in independence,
:25:28. > :25:32.the people of Scotland get the Government that they want. Whether
:25:33. > :25:37.that's Labour or the SNP, you have to be independent for that to be
:25:38. > :25:41.guaranteed? Let's be clear what Nicola was doing here. She has
:25:42. > :25:45.identified in order to get a majority for independence then she
:25:46. > :25:51.is going to have to speak to and get people who are traditionally opposed
:25:52. > :25:57.to her party and it was a naked and cynical pitch at that. It is not for
:25:58. > :26:02.me to give advice to the Labour Party, but if I were, I think I
:26:03. > :26:07.would probably say be ware of Scottish Nationalists wearing gifts
:26:08. > :26:12.of traditional socialism because you know, it is a pretty cynical pitch
:26:13. > :26:17.at that. It is working, would you not say it
:26:18. > :26:20.is working when you see the polls? No, those who want to remain part of
:26:21. > :26:26.the United Kingdom are ahead and the only poll that really matters is one
:26:27. > :26:31.we will have on 18th September. But I'm interested in some of what
:26:32. > :26:34.Lesley was saying about social demographic values because that has
:26:35. > :26:38.been what has been reflected in Scottish voting patterns in recent
:26:39. > :26:44.years and that is a reflection of the fact that we have a particular
:26:45. > :26:47.range of social issues and challenges in Scotland. These are
:26:48. > :26:53.the same challenges that are shared by many people in Liverpool, in
:26:54. > :26:56.Newcastle, in Manchester, in Cardiff and Belfast. And you know, if you
:26:57. > :27:00.want to meet these challenges, you don't meet the challenges just by
:27:01. > :27:03.drawing a line in the map and turning your back on these people.
:27:04. > :27:06.You meet these challenges by reaching out to them and making
:27:07. > :27:13.common cause with them. APPLAUSE
:27:14. > :27:18.OK. Briefly. You know, yes there is a tremendous amount that is
:27:19. > :27:25.fantastic and admirable in the social service provision model. I am
:27:26. > :27:31.a fan of a lot of it. Let's not kid our selves that it is cheap. Denmark
:27:32. > :27:37.takes 47% of its nation's GDP in tax. In this country, it is 36%. Is
:27:38. > :27:41.there the appetite to pay that level of taxation? In Scotland, if you
:27:42. > :27:47.look at it, the one time when you have actually had that offered as a
:27:48. > :27:50.proposition was in 2003, you remember John Swinney and the SNP
:27:51. > :27:55.offering a penny for Scotland? It was the worst election result the
:27:56. > :27:58.SNP had since devolution. Can I say something here?
:27:59. > :28:03.APPLAUSE I would love to know what you think
:28:04. > :28:06.of the Nordic countries? Would you like Scotland to have the best rates
:28:07. > :28:12.of child well-being in the world? Would you like us to have the best
:28:13. > :28:15.placed education results? Would you like us to have these things? A lot
:28:16. > :28:20.of these things, but the truth of the matter... The wealthiest country
:28:21. > :28:23.in the world. You asked a question, let me answer it. The truth of the
:28:24. > :28:28.matter is that you can't go around the would world picking and micking,
:28:29. > :28:34.take -- mixing, taking bits from this country... I asked you whether
:28:35. > :28:37.you would like this country to have the standards of the Nordic
:28:38. > :28:41.countries. You asked the question. Now let me finish it. The truth of
:28:42. > :28:45.the matter is when as a politician, I offer myself towards the
:28:46. > :28:51.electorate as you did once upon a time and then you stand on a whole
:28:52. > :28:54.package. It is not just about you spend the money, it is about how you
:28:55. > :28:58.raise it. You haven't answered my question.
:28:59. > :29:02.APPLAUSE Angela Constance and then Brian
:29:03. > :29:07.Wilson. If it is the whole package, let's have a Scottish Parliament in
:29:08. > :29:12.Edinburgh that can fully mobile identities its -- mobilise its
:29:13. > :29:17.resources of this rich nation of ours. Let's have control overall the
:29:18. > :29:20.spending and all the raising of taxes and let's have a Government,
:29:21. > :29:24.the Government that we vote for. Let's have a Government that, let's
:29:25. > :29:29.get the Government we vote for each and every time. Two-thirds of my
:29:30. > :29:33.life I have had, a UK Government, that Scotland, not that I just
:29:34. > :29:38.didn't vote for them, but Scotland didn't vote for. There is a deficit
:29:39. > :29:42.in this country and we need a Parliament now more than ever that
:29:43. > :29:45.controls both sides of the balance sheet instead of a UK Government
:29:46. > :29:48.that's dismantling the Welfare State.
:29:49. > :29:58.Thank you. Brian Wilson, quickly. We're going to take a question
:29:59. > :30:01.related to this. Brian, quickly. Two thirds of the Scottish government
:30:02. > :30:05.didn't vote for your government, and we live under a because we live in a
:30:06. > :30:12.democracy. Second point, you can't pick and mix. Get a common line. Of
:30:13. > :30:20.course we could have Nordic standards of this, that and the next
:30:21. > :30:28.thing, but we'd pay Nordic taxation. Why does everybody keeps citing
:30:29. > :30:34.these countries... Thank you both very much indeed. Please, there is
:30:35. > :30:40.no point if everyone is going to shout over each other. I want to say
:30:41. > :30:45.one thing quickly, then we will take another question and then we will
:30:46. > :30:49.all speak one at a time. You can join the debate tonight. You can do
:30:50. > :30:52.it yourself, you will probably not be as noisy as the panel, but you
:30:53. > :31:12.can use our hashtag on Twitter. You can also e-mail us. There are a
:31:13. > :31:18.selection of your comments on the BBC Scotland News website. Let's
:31:19. > :31:23.take another question. It comes from Sally Inkster. Recent polls have
:31:24. > :31:27.shown that less than a third of women support independence. I
:31:28. > :31:36.wondered if the panellists would have a theory as to why that was. I
:31:37. > :31:39.have to say that I feel it's very hard to get yourself heard when
:31:40. > :31:44.there's a lot of male voices around sometimes, when you get shouted
:31:45. > :31:47.down. And when you are trying to open up perhaps a layer of the
:31:48. > :31:51.debate that hasn't been done before. I just wish we could get a bit
:31:52. > :31:57.further than the heightened response is that we often get. I think what
:31:58. > :32:01.women are used to is seeing a new boss the same as the old boss. I
:32:02. > :32:07.think a lot of people are used to that. If you look at the history
:32:08. > :32:11.throughout history, women, for example, spend 67 years in this
:32:12. > :32:15.country to get the vote. They finally got it in 1928, that was
:32:16. > :32:18.very late compared to some other countries. There was huge hopes
:32:19. > :32:24.about what that would mean. Actually, what that meant was that
:32:25. > :32:28.woman's Paiute still remained at 40% of men's paper decade. After the
:32:29. > :32:33.war, women had jobs and they were told to get out of them to let men
:32:34. > :32:36.come into them after the war. All of those times women have been told
:32:37. > :32:40.that something different was going to happen, that a new deal was just
:32:41. > :32:43.around the corner. It just kind of never quite transpired. I think all
:32:44. > :32:49.sorts of people are sceptical about the promises of change if one thing
:32:50. > :32:53.happens that's probably fair enough. But of all those people who
:32:54. > :32:57.are sceptical, women are perhaps the most sceptical because what often
:32:58. > :33:01.happens with changes is that it's the same type of person that remains
:33:02. > :33:05.in charge. And the only point of having a change this time would be
:33:06. > :33:10.to create a different kind of society in Scotland, which is a much
:33:11. > :33:14.more egalitarian one and one in which women would have much more of
:33:15. > :33:18.a chance of equal participation and the latter game changer that surely
:33:19. > :33:24.must come, or whichever party wins, which ever yes or no wins and
:33:25. > :33:29.whichever party wins the next election, we have to get affordable
:33:30. > :33:34.childcare as an absolute benchmark of society in Scotland because we
:33:35. > :33:37.are lagging so far behind. I think women are watchful of that,
:33:38. > :33:41.wondering about the promise being allied to the independence vote,
:33:42. > :33:50.hopeful that it would come but still needing a bit more persuading.
:33:51. > :33:55.Angela Constance, you, congratulations, were promoted into
:33:56. > :34:00.the Scottish Cabinet this week, in a move that some people have seen is
:34:01. > :34:04.not unrelated to the SNP's attempt to persuade more women to vote for
:34:05. > :34:07.independence. Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish
:34:08. > :34:12.Conservatives, said it was a particularly cynical stunt, the very
:34:13. > :34:16.worst type of tokenism. What do you think of that? I think it's
:34:17. > :34:19.absolutely imperative, given the economic climate, although there are
:34:20. > :34:27.some signs of economic recovery. It is imperative that young people and
:34:28. > :34:30.women and their place in work and place in the economy, that those
:34:31. > :34:35.needs are represented at the very highest level of Scottish
:34:36. > :34:42.government. The First Minister made the decision to appoint me and Shona
:34:43. > :34:50.Robinson to the Cabinet. I think what he has demonstrated is that the
:34:51. > :34:56.Scottish Government can lead the way. We've set out in the White
:34:57. > :35:01.Paper that the Scotland we seek will have a minimal of 40% representation
:35:02. > :35:06.of women in a whole host of companies and public boards. If I
:35:07. > :35:10.can relate that to the next question. And on the less, women
:35:11. > :35:14.seem to be lagging behind again and again in the polls, saying they
:35:15. > :35:19.would vote yes. One poll put support for independence at just 28.5% and
:35:20. > :35:24.falling. Why do you think that is? The most recent polls I have seen
:35:25. > :35:29.show that support for independence amongst women was actually rising.
:35:30. > :35:36.Nonetheless, we need to do more because women are 52% of the
:35:37. > :35:42.population. They've got absolutely every right for their interests,
:35:43. > :35:47.needs and aspirations to be fully represented and engaged. Why do you
:35:48. > :35:52.think they are not? It is often about the practicalities of life.
:35:53. > :35:55.Irrespective of whether you are a woman who stays at home to look
:35:56. > :36:01.after children or whether you are a working mother. Quite often you've
:36:02. > :36:04.got quite a lot on your plate as it is in terms of childcare. We know
:36:05. > :36:10.the barriers that women face in terms of access of affordable,
:36:11. > :36:14.high-quality childcare, which is the biggest barrier to women actually
:36:15. > :36:19.getting into work. That's why the independence debate and the focus
:36:20. > :36:24.that we are now having for the first time ever, we are now having a real
:36:25. > :36:28.debate about the provision of universal childcare in this country.
:36:29. > :36:31.And for the first time ever we've got a plan to achieve universal
:36:32. > :36:40.childcare in Scotland within a generation. By back row Sally, I
:36:41. > :36:49.just gave the wrong name, Sally was shaking her head. Please contribute,
:36:50. > :36:53.put your hands up, but, Sally, why were you shaking your head? I think
:36:54. > :36:56.it is those who don't know who are driving the statistic. I think they
:36:57. > :37:10.are waiting for the grown-up conversation to stop. -- to start.
:37:11. > :37:15.To pick up Sally's point, I'm very wary of this idea that people are
:37:16. > :37:20.sitting waiting for debate because, frankly, if this debate is to be
:37:21. > :37:26.conducted solely between you and amongst politicians then it will be
:37:27. > :37:29.pretty sterile and unproductive indeed. This is a debate for a
:37:30. > :37:36.decision like no other that we will ever face. Sally, if you are sitting
:37:37. > :37:41.waiting for the debate to improve, and I have to say in all the years
:37:42. > :37:45.I've known you, I've never known you to take that particular approach to
:37:46. > :37:49.a debate, then don't. Get out there. If you don't like the tenor
:37:50. > :37:55.of the debate then get involved and improve it. Why do women seem to be
:37:56. > :38:01.less enthusiastic about independence than others? That is a very
:38:02. > :38:10.difficult question for any man to answer. And to come out with his
:38:11. > :38:17.life intact! I have my suspicions, if I can put it like that. I think
:38:18. > :38:21.that women are more drawn to arguments of the head rather than
:38:22. > :38:26.the heart. In talking to people on the doorstep, I feel that women in
:38:27. > :38:32.particular are saying, well, what will this mean for me, my household
:38:33. > :38:38.budget, my children, for all of the others... Shall we ask a woman in
:38:39. > :38:43.the audience? Can I just make a point about childcare? Childcare is
:38:44. > :38:50.one of the most empowering and enabling services that a government
:38:51. > :38:55.can give to a woman wanting to go back into... Or forum father,
:38:56. > :38:59.indeed, yes, to go back into the workplace in particular. But this is
:39:00. > :39:04.something that the Scottish Government already has the power to
:39:05. > :39:09.do. It is something that has been done in Westminster... In fact,
:39:10. > :39:19.already the situation south of the border is for three and four
:39:20. > :39:24.-year-olds, you get 570 hours a year free childcare. It's less in
:39:25. > :39:31.Scotland. I want to take some views from our audience. I find some of
:39:32. > :39:35.the policy is insulting. I don't agree with there being certain
:39:36. > :39:40.percentages. I'm a woman and I want a job because I'm the best, I don't
:39:41. > :39:45.want to be a statistic. And I also disagree with the childcare policy.
:39:46. > :39:48.Obviously we want better childcare but I'm sceptical about the figures.
:39:49. > :39:56.When someone says we don't have the full figures yet, it is hard to
:39:57. > :40:00.trust somebody and trust policy. You were just talking about arguments of
:40:01. > :40:04.the head and what's in it for me. As a young woman, what's in it for me
:40:05. > :40:09.right now? I'm going to get paid less, I'm going to be excluded from
:40:10. > :40:11.things like education and good employment because of caring
:40:12. > :40:15.responsibilities. There's no point denying that because in education
:40:16. > :40:18.even, women with caring responsibilities are excluded. I've
:40:19. > :40:21.got colleagues in the student movement who have been penalised
:40:22. > :40:32.because they've turned up to a lecture late, having notified that
:40:33. > :40:34.they were going to pick up their child. Universal childcare is
:40:35. > :40:37.absolutely essential. I used to not be in favour in gender quotas, but
:40:38. > :40:39.now there's an absolute need for them because it's not happening.
:40:40. > :40:42.Women don't see themselves in those positions. Do you think that
:40:43. > :40:48.independence would help or hinder that? I think it would help it. So
:40:49. > :40:56.far, the last 200 years hasn't. The man up there. The social policy that
:40:57. > :41:00.was mentioned about the NHS and the welfare state and also the social
:41:01. > :41:04.policy to create better quality with women, the Westminster government
:41:05. > :41:09.seems to be charging away from that and going on a separatist move away
:41:10. > :41:13.from the rest of Europe. Whereas Scotland is trying to remain as part
:41:14. > :41:17.of the more progressive states in Europe. This allegation that the
:41:18. > :41:22.Westminster coalition is dismantling the welfare state. Presumably that
:41:23. > :41:26.would play well with women voters. No, but devolution, the Labour
:41:27. > :41:30.government created a Scottish parliament, so that on many of these
:41:31. > :41:34.issues Scotland can do different things, which it does. But I want to
:41:35. > :41:38.go back to the question, why are more women resisting? I think women
:41:39. > :41:42.are better at recognising bluster and bad patter. Maybe they are
:41:43. > :41:46.better at reading a book than looking in the crystal ball. If you
:41:47. > :41:50.take something like childcare, women know, anybody with any sense knows
:41:51. > :41:54.you don't need to change the constitution in order to build more
:41:55. > :41:58.nurseries. But as has been pointed out, when the Nationalists came into
:41:59. > :42:04.office, Scotland had a better level of childcare than the rest of the
:42:05. > :42:09.UK, a higher number of hours. We now have to catch up because the money
:42:10. > :42:13.that has come to Scotland through the Barnett formula for childcare
:42:14. > :42:19.has not been used for that purpose. To use childcare as a bargaining
:42:20. > :42:24.chip in the constitutional debate is very, very dishonest. I will give
:42:25. > :42:30.you another, the lady who spoke about students. There is an
:42:31. > :42:35.astonishing statistic that since 2007, the number of people going
:42:36. > :42:41.into further education colleges each year has dropped by 35%. There are
:42:42. > :42:47.100 and 40,000 fewer people this year in further education colleges
:42:48. > :42:53.than they're worth in 2007. And that, because it is mostly part-time
:42:54. > :42:59.places that have gone, 93,000 of that 140,000 women, because they,
:43:00. > :43:04.for childcare reasons, that they are more likely to be on part-time
:43:05. > :43:08.courses. Why is a party and a government which is supposedly so
:43:09. > :43:12.concerned about the rights of women and their childcare and all the rest
:43:13. > :43:17.of it, why, and I'm sure you've got good intentions personally, but why
:43:18. > :43:21.have you cut 140,000 college places? We've not. Women are not
:43:22. > :43:31.underrepresented in our college sector. 93,000 fewer women. We have
:43:32. > :43:35.more young people, and most of those young people are young women, doing
:43:36. > :43:39.full-time courses that lead to recognised qualifications that will
:43:40. > :43:42.increase their employment prospects. Women are not underrepresented in
:43:43. > :43:48.the college sector. Where they are under represented is in certain
:43:49. > :43:53.sectors of the economy, growth sectors of the economy, whether it
:43:54. > :43:57.is ICT, engineering, and we need to get more women into things like
:43:58. > :44:01.renewable energy. That is why we need full economic control. That is
:44:02. > :44:07.why we need full control over you quality measures. In terms of the
:44:08. > :44:18.childcare... And apprentices as well? Know, we've not. Higher-level
:44:19. > :44:22.apprentices in Scotland are growing. If we could just park some of this
:44:23. > :44:26.for the moment. Do we not want to move to a situation where we have a
:44:27. > :44:30.much more cooperative, consensual way of working? Do we want to dump
:44:31. > :44:34.competitive, backstabbing, driven kind of behaviour which always puts
:44:35. > :44:39.the elite first and never puts the average person first? That's the
:44:40. > :44:44.mark of a society that we are trying to create. We wouldn't be sitting
:44:45. > :44:47.here, we just wouldn't, if we hadn't witnessed a change in what is
:44:48. > :44:53.characteristic of the values of the way that the UK operates. So that
:44:54. > :44:56.many of us watch particularly Conservative conferences as if we
:44:57. > :45:00.are watching aliens on another planet. We don't have three star
:45:01. > :45:04.hospitals here. They do south of the border. We don't have the opt-out
:45:05. > :45:09.academies, we don't have the belief that the market is the only dynamic
:45:10. > :45:13.that works in life. We are trying to do something different. And we have
:45:14. > :45:17.been since Scots, for all sorts of reasons, voted Labour since the
:45:18. > :45:22.party's inception. It has been trying to express a different set of
:45:23. > :45:26.ideas. So the point is those ideas, that come sensible way of working,
:45:27. > :45:30.something that looks at where the average of the population is, not
:45:31. > :45:33.just the elite, which is the constant way that the UK seems to
:45:34. > :45:37.measure success, that is the kind of society most women want
:45:38. > :45:41.particularly, because they do well in consensual situations. If you are
:45:42. > :45:44.looking that kind of way forward and that is part of the reason that
:45:45. > :45:48.personally I will be voting yes, because I think that's the kind of
:45:49. > :45:52.society that is trying to get out in Scotland and is being put back in
:45:53. > :45:57.the box constantly by a completely top-down, competitive, driven market
:45:58. > :46:03.economy type of government in London. We will take a couple more
:46:04. > :46:07.points. Yes, the woman in the middle. Yes? We need a massive
:46:08. > :46:13.amount of money to turn around the poverty of aspiration among women
:46:14. > :46:17.and the material poverty that children face. That cannot be done
:46:18. > :46:21.with pocket money from the Westminster Government. It is a
:46:22. > :46:26.massive task and it needs the full amount of economic leavers that we
:46:27. > :46:29.we can get from independence to do that.
:46:30. > :46:34.APPLAUSE It is not just women who are waiting
:46:35. > :46:40.for a grown-up debate to start, I can assure you that is men as well.
:46:41. > :46:46.I would like to thank Lesley for at least trying to get to a different
:46:47. > :46:50.level of debate. We are only having half a debate. We have not had any
:46:51. > :46:55.vision. We have had no idea of what might happen if other parties, not
:46:56. > :46:59.unreasonably might be in charge, of an independent Scotland. We have had
:47:00. > :47:03.a Lib Dem, and Labour coalition before in the Scottish Parliament.
:47:04. > :47:09.We have heard nothing from other parties to give a broad debate on
:47:10. > :47:11.both sides so we can actually think what might be the case in an
:47:12. > :47:19.independent Scotland. Thank you very much.
:47:20. > :47:24.APPLAUSE We will take another question. The
:47:25. > :47:29.next question is from Amy Liptrot. Would the future for the renewable
:47:30. > :47:33.energy industry be more secure in an independent Scotland? Wot future for
:47:34. > :47:38.the renewables energy be more secure in an independent Scotland? Angela
:47:39. > :47:42.Constance. Yes, absolutely. At this current time, our renewable energy
:47:43. > :47:46.sector I would argue has been held back by some of the decisions that
:47:47. > :47:52.have been made by the Westminster Government. We know that energy
:47:53. > :47:57.costs have been rising over the past 15 years, in fact household energy
:47:58. > :48:03.bills on average have risen by 50%. We know there is growing concerns
:48:04. > :48:06.about the supply, the security of supply issues and we have a
:48:07. > :48:16.wonderful opportunity in Scotland, we have a quarter of Europe's
:48:17. > :48:20.renewable energy capacity. Scotland has is a net exporter of
:48:21. > :48:25.electricity. The lights in the rest of the UK would go out if it was not
:48:26. > :48:30.for Scotland exporting electricity. So we have a sector that's growing.
:48:31. > :48:34.Jobs and investment in renewable energy. It has increased over the
:48:35. > :48:39.last three year period, but we need to be doing more. This is a huge
:48:40. > :48:44.opportunity for Scotland and we need to be now more than ever, very
:48:45. > :48:48.focussed on the areas of our economy with that growth potential and we
:48:49. > :48:52.nuble energy is -- renewable energy is an excellent example of the
:48:53. > :48:58.future and the way forward for our economy. I imagine people have views
:48:59. > :49:05.on renewable energy. Keep your hands up. Brian Wilson, of course, was an
:49:06. > :49:12.Energy Minister. What do you think? Would it be more secure? We could go
:49:13. > :49:16.on all night. Even my breath was taken away when she said we export a
:49:17. > :49:20.quarter of our electricity to the rest of the UK. We export a quarter
:49:21. > :49:24.of our UK because we have two nuclear power stations which we are
:49:25. > :49:29.going to close down. So the first point. The other thing about being
:49:30. > :49:33.held back by the rest of the UK. We have massive investment in, we have
:49:34. > :49:37.significant investment in renewable energy at the present time because
:49:38. > :49:45.it is paid for by consumers throughout the United Kingdom. 90%
:49:46. > :49:49.of it is paid throughout the UK. ?6 billion has been spent on cre
:49:50. > :49:53.eighting the -- creating the infrastructure which I did have a
:49:54. > :49:58.hand in initiating for the whole of GB so we could export renewable
:49:59. > :50:03.energy to the rest of the UK. But if we do not have a single stake in a
:50:04. > :50:08.single market, the idea that consumers in the rest of Britain are
:50:09. > :50:11.going to continue to pay 90% in order to subsidise Scottish
:50:12. > :50:17.renewables is delusional. It is not true. We have a fantastic facility
:50:18. > :50:22.in Orkney which was created when I was Energy Minister between the
:50:23. > :50:25.United Kingdom Government and Highlands Enterprise. We should be
:50:26. > :50:30.promoting these things, it is central to the whole renewable thing
:50:31. > :50:33.is where Scotland can do more on renewables is we have the market
:50:34. > :50:37.into which to sell that energy. Why, if you break it up into separate
:50:38. > :50:42.states, you break it up into separate markets and people in
:50:43. > :50:49.London are not going to subsidise your building cables to the Western
:50:50. > :50:55.Isles or Orkney or Shetland. Why would they? If they choose to be a
:50:56. > :51:00.foreign state, we must face the consequences of being a foreign
:51:01. > :51:13.state. Yes, the man with the hat. How could I miss you with your hat?
:51:14. > :51:22.It is amazing. We don't have connector here. Alistair Carmichael,
:51:23. > :51:26.why does Fergus have to appeal for a connector when Alistair Carmichael
:51:27. > :51:32.sees him every day? We will come down to Mr Carmichael
:51:33. > :51:35.in a moment. I would like to see the renewables put back into the
:51:36. > :51:38.community rather than lots of people in Scotland making a fortune from
:51:39. > :51:42.it. I would like to see our pensioners get some of that free
:51:43. > :51:47.energy that is being given to the wealthy people who have got the
:51:48. > :51:51.turbines over our island. APPLAUSE
:51:52. > :51:58.OK. Thank you. The man in purple, I suppose? You mentioned about us not,
:51:59. > :52:02.about connecting us to the grid. We are not connected to the grid in
:52:03. > :52:08.Orkney. Is that likely to happen if we stay in the UK?
:52:09. > :52:11.Thank you. It is all on hold. Why are they going to spend hundreds of
:52:12. > :52:14.millions of pounds at the present time on these connections when they
:52:15. > :52:20.don't know whether in two or three years time we will be part of the
:52:21. > :52:28.same market or not? Yes. I would like go to the room
:52:29. > :52:32.here. This side of the panel haven't had a word at all. I would like to
:52:33. > :52:38.take the woman and then Lesley and Alistair.
:52:39. > :52:44.I am a post-graduate renewable energy student and I have been told
:52:45. > :52:47.it will be ten years before we get this connection. It is not something
:52:48. > :52:53.that should be down to the referendum. The UK Government and
:52:54. > :52:56.Scottish Hydroare bound by Ofgem to make these decisions and everybody
:52:57. > :53:03.is pointing their fingers at each other as to who is going to take the
:53:04. > :53:09.responsibility. In Orkney 103% of the electricity was generated. We
:53:10. > :53:15.were unable to export the electricity. I think this, the
:53:16. > :53:20.question I had written down as well as Amy, absolutely, I think, that in
:53:21. > :53:24.the light of independence, and it being an independent Scotland, it
:53:25. > :53:30.will be much higher on the priority list to get areas linked up than it
:53:31. > :53:36.is currently. ? Thank you very much.
:53:37. > :53:40.APPLAUSE Lesley Riddoch and then Alistair
:53:41. > :53:44.Carmichael. I came across extraordinary figures which came out
:53:45. > :53:49.last month. They describe how much renewable energy is as a proportion
:53:50. > :53:54.of the whole energy mix for reach country of the 28 who have agreed to
:53:55. > :54:01.have targets for 2020. Amazingly, the UK is third bottom with Malta
:54:02. > :54:08.and Luxembourg producing only 4.2% renewable energy as part of its mix.
:54:09. > :54:15.The EU average is 14%. The best are Norway, sorry to keep mentioning
:54:16. > :54:20.them, folks and a lot of the other nationses are around -- nations are
:54:21. > :54:24.around 40 or 50. If the renewable energy industry is safe in the UK's
:54:25. > :54:28.hands, why are we bottom? Why has there been so little
:54:29. > :54:33.investment to get the show on the road? People will be aware that we
:54:34. > :54:38.have a phenomenal renewable resource and I know there is arguments where
:54:39. > :54:42.people feel they don't like looking at wind turbines, but you can't
:54:43. > :54:51.argue about the resource, we have in Scotland got one of the best
:54:52. > :54:56.renewable resources in the whole she bang. In international panel on
:54:57. > :55:03.climate change came out and said that the world is warming at twice
:55:04. > :55:06.the previous rate, but if we treble or quadruple renewable energy
:55:07. > :55:12.production we can do something about it. Now, Scotland sitting in a sweet
:55:13. > :55:16.space. We could be getting on with this if we could allow all the
:55:17. > :55:20.islands to be connected and to take the other lady's point up,
:55:21. > :55:23.absolutely. There should be community based renewables because
:55:24. > :55:27.that's the other reason there has been objections. Shall we put these
:55:28. > :55:32.points to Alistair Carmichael then? There is a lot that Lesley says that
:55:33. > :55:37.I agree with. I see a tremendous amount of potential in Scotland's
:55:38. > :55:41.islands for the development of wave, tidal tower in addition to the --
:55:42. > :55:45.power in addition to the wind power that we've got. That's why
:55:46. > :55:52.Government brought an island strike price swi a higher level of subsidy
:55:53. > :55:57.for a wind generated in the island communities. There is no reason why
:55:58. > :56:02.that can't be extended to wave and tidal power... Because there isn't a
:56:03. > :56:04.connector. You can't supply it to anybody!
:56:05. > :56:09.APPLAUSE Stick with me here, Lesley. This is
:56:10. > :56:13.important. Please don't be patronising, Alistair.
:56:14. > :56:16.I didn't mean it to sound patronising. It wasn't my intention
:56:17. > :56:23.of the truth of the matter is that we have got a tremendous resource
:56:24. > :56:28.here. The interconnector application is something that will come on. Come
:56:29. > :56:34.on, let's have a bet. Five years? Is this part of your sensible debate.
:56:35. > :56:38.I'm asking why not? Who are the people who have to make the needs
:56:39. > :56:42.based case to Ofgem are going ahead with that. But the question... We
:56:43. > :56:46.are nearly out of time. The question that was asked was one about the
:56:47. > :56:50.future of the industry. The truth of the matter is that renewables are
:56:51. > :56:54.going to need a high level of subsidy for the foreseeable future
:56:55. > :56:58.in order to get them to realise the potential that we've got. That
:56:59. > :57:04.subsidy comes from bill payers across the whole of the United
:57:05. > :57:08.Kingdom, 28% of that money from bill payers comes to projects in
:57:09. > :57:12.Scotland. That's one of the things from which we are being asked to
:57:13. > :57:16.walk away. A brief response from Angela Constance, please. It is very
:57:17. > :57:20.interesting when the Westminster parties talk about subsidy because
:57:21. > :57:26.the one subsidy they never mention is the subsidy of North Sea Oil
:57:27. > :57:31.going to the London treasury. Thank you very much. I am a' frayed
:57:32. > :57:35.that's -- I am afraid that's it, thank you very much indeed for
:57:36. > :57:44.contributing to the debate. The hour is up. The programme is on a break
:57:45. > :57:49.until 8th July and we will be in Portree.
:57:50. > :57:54.If you want to join our audience for any of our programmes, please go
:57:55. > :57:58.online and search for BBC Referendum Debate. From Kirkwall in the Orkney
:57:59. > :58:06.Islands, good night.