:00:08. > :00:13.Welcome to the Referendum Debate. The postal ballots are being sent
:00:14. > :00:29.out, decision day is approaching, and tonight we are in Edinburgh.
:00:30. > :00:44.On our panel here we have Finance Secretary John Swinney of the
:00:45. > :00:47.Scottish National Party, Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont, the
:00:48. > :00:52.formerly of the Liberal Democrats, Charles Kennedy, and the Scotsman
:00:53. > :00:57.columnist Joyce McMillan. In the interest of a goods debate, our
:00:58. > :01:00.audience are divided between supporters of independence on one
:01:01. > :01:03.side, opponents of the other, plus some who are undecided in the
:01:04. > :01:07.middle. Our audience have submitted their questions, and our panel have
:01:08. > :01:15.not seen them. Welcome to Leith Academy. By Mike Edinburgh, wrote
:01:16. > :01:21.Ian Rankin, is a city the size of a town with a village mentality. This
:01:22. > :01:27.is a place with its arms open to the world. The city's population doubles
:01:28. > :01:30.in August as the festival explodes into life, giving it an
:01:31. > :01:35.international reputation for the arts. Over the centuries, Edinburgh
:01:36. > :01:38.has also played a leading role in the flowering of philosophy, science
:01:39. > :01:43.and economic. There was more than one reason it was nicknamed the
:01:44. > :01:47.Athens of the North. Now it is to Scotland's devolved parliament, the
:01:48. > :01:53.first to city of Florence for three centuries, and also home to
:01:54. > :02:01.Britain's largest financial centre out of London. -- the first to sit
:02:02. > :02:05.here for three centuries. Let's get on with the debate and take our
:02:06. > :02:11.first question, which comes from Lauren McGovern. I'd like to ask if
:02:12. > :02:17.the SNP are misleading the public about the NHS. John Swinney. No. The
:02:18. > :02:24.National Health Service in Scotland is a devolved responsibility, it is
:02:25. > :02:28.in operational control of the Scottish Government, and we are able
:02:29. > :02:32.to take the National Health Service in a different direction to that
:02:33. > :02:38.south of the border, but what we are not in control is the total size the
:02:39. > :02:42.budget of Scotland, because that is determined by the changes that are
:02:43. > :02:47.made to public expenditure in the United Kingdom. So, for example, if
:02:48. > :02:51.the UK budget and public services. ?100, it will fall in Scotland by
:02:52. > :02:55.?10, and as a consequence that spending squeeze will be felt in
:02:56. > :03:00.Scotland, so over the course of this spending period we will wrestle with
:03:01. > :03:04.a 7.2% real terms reduction in our budget, so our resources for public
:03:05. > :03:08.services are falling, and that will inevitably put pressure on the
:03:09. > :03:13.health service. So we may, in Scotland, have a policy decision
:03:14. > :03:16.that we do not want to privatise the health service in Scotland, but the
:03:17. > :03:20.consequences of privatisation of the health service south of the border
:03:21. > :03:24.will be felt in the impact on the budget in Scotland, and that is why
:03:25. > :03:30.this is such an important issue to be secured and settled by a yes vote
:03:31. > :03:38.in the referendum. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:03:39. > :03:42.Well, first of all, John is correct, and I will acknowledge, and it is a
:03:43. > :03:47.good thing, that the National Health Service in terms of policy is a
:03:48. > :03:51.wholly devolved matter, so how we run our health service is up to the
:03:52. > :03:54.people we elect, and that means that a different policy is being pursued
:03:55. > :04:00.in Scotland than it is south of the border, and that is fine. In terms
:04:01. > :04:04.of the funding, but point, since this government came into power on a
:04:05. > :04:09.UK bases, National Health Service expenditure has been ringfenced. And
:04:10. > :04:14.secondly, if you were to constrain it, and that is a decision for a
:04:15. > :04:19.future general election, if you were to constrain it, you would only be
:04:20. > :04:24.constraining the rate of growth armour because everybody knows,
:04:25. > :04:27.everybody except that the rate of inflation within the health service
:04:28. > :04:36.is always higher by definition than it is within that of the economy as
:04:37. > :04:40.a whole. So when John Ponce to the worry -- when John points to the
:04:41. > :04:44.worry, it has been portrayed by some that if you were to vote no in this
:04:45. > :04:47.referendum, you would essentially be an accomplice to finishing off the
:04:48. > :04:58.health service in Scotland, utter rubbish, an insult. If you do want
:04:59. > :05:03.to put the share of growth or reduction which Scotland enjoyed at
:05:04. > :05:09.the moment based on UK expenditure, there is an easy way to do that.
:05:10. > :05:12.That is to vote yes, to get independence, because then there is
:05:13. > :05:17.no Barnett formula from the day after we are independent, and this
:05:18. > :05:25.whole argument becomes redundant, a nonsense. John Swinney, you are
:05:26. > :05:29.insulting people's intelligence. I know Charles is a Liberal Democrat,
:05:30. > :05:33.but in England and Wales they are making the same point, that there is
:05:34. > :05:36.a threat to the NHS because of the policy decisions that have been
:05:37. > :05:40.taken by the UK Government in privatising the health service south
:05:41. > :05:44.of the border, which has financial obligations for the Scottish
:05:45. > :05:47.Government. It has been felt in Wales already, and they are up in
:05:48. > :05:51.arms about the direction of policy, that is the real danger we are
:05:52. > :05:57.facing. Please contribute but to your hands up, I will come to you in
:05:58. > :06:03.a minute. But first, Johann Lamont, your party's position south of the
:06:04. > :06:05.border, Andy Burnham has said NHS privatisation is being forced
:06:06. > :06:11.through at a pace and scale, five more years of the same would push
:06:12. > :06:15.the NHS off the cliff edge. Which is why a Labour government will ensure
:06:16. > :06:20.there will not be privatisation of the NHS in England, and indeed all
:06:21. > :06:25.of the figures show that in Wales, Northern Ireland, England, as in
:06:26. > :06:28.Scotland, people believe the NHS is a precious thing, and it is
:06:29. > :06:34.dishonest of the SNP to say, all of a sudden, this is so important. Not
:06:35. > :06:37.mentioned in the white paper, not mentioned in the constitution when
:06:38. > :06:41.they unveiled it, not in the first debate three weeks ago. This is
:06:42. > :06:44.desperate stuff, because the health service cannot be privatised in
:06:45. > :06:48.Scotland. It is not under threat of privatisation, but it is essential
:06:49. > :06:53.we make sure it is properly funded. That is not about the constitution,
:06:54. > :06:56.that is about politics and the choice we make, and because we
:06:57. > :06:59.created the Scottish Parliament with control over the health service,
:07:00. > :07:04.regardless of what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom, we can
:07:05. > :07:07.protect the health service. The real threat to the health service, if you
:07:08. > :07:11.listen to what many people who care deeply about the health service are
:07:12. > :07:16.saying, how do you deliver a health service that we can be proud of with
:07:17. > :07:19.a ?6 billion gap in funding that will because today one of
:07:20. > :07:25.independence? Thank you. APPLAUSE
:07:26. > :07:33.The blonde woman in the middle, yes. I just wanted to ask, if the yes
:07:34. > :07:36.campaign are lying, Unison also lying? The thousands of people
:07:37. > :07:44.marching from Jarrow line? Are the charities... They are concerned at
:07:45. > :07:48.the direction of travel in the rest of the United Kingdom, but the fact
:07:49. > :07:51.of the matter is that people in the United Kingdom want a publicly
:07:52. > :07:57.funded health service, that is what it shows, and if the Tories go to
:07:58. > :08:00.the next election saying they will privatise the health service, that
:08:01. > :08:04.will make sure there will be a Labour government, that is a fact.
:08:05. > :08:10.You see, the point that cannot be avoided here is the implication...
:08:11. > :08:18.The people marching from Jarrow are all highlighting the dangers of the
:08:19. > :08:20.direction of travel in England, and as a consequence of that, it will
:08:21. > :08:22.flow through into the funding arrangements of the Scottish
:08:23. > :08:25.Parliament as sure as night follows day, and we have to stop that
:08:26. > :08:29.happening if we are to be successful. Joyce McMillan. There is
:08:30. > :08:33.a deeper issue behind this question of what is happening to the NHS in
:08:34. > :08:37.England, a question of trust and democracy. You may recall the 2010
:08:38. > :08:40.general election when both parties which are now in government in
:08:41. > :08:44.Westminster had in their manifestoes that they would not conduct any more
:08:45. > :08:50.top-down reforms of the NHS, and yet within 18 months they had enacted a
:08:51. > :08:55.reform which every, I think, independent commentator agrees that
:08:56. > :08:59.leads to the break-up and emergence of a largely privatised NHS. Why did
:09:00. > :09:03.that happen? If you think about why that happens, then you begin to get
:09:04. > :09:09.close to some of the issues of trust, of excessive lobbying, of
:09:10. > :09:12.influence-peddling, and of politicians not sticking to the
:09:13. > :09:16.policies that they put to the electorate because of pressures from
:09:17. > :09:19.wealthy and influential people, which are among the reasons why
:09:20. > :09:23.people have ceased to trust Westminster government in the way
:09:24. > :09:27.that they used to. And I think... APPLAUSE
:09:28. > :09:33.We will take a point from the woman in blue in the middle, yes. Is it
:09:34. > :09:36.not the case that the NHS has come to the fore in the yes campaign
:09:37. > :09:42.because of the problems they were having with the currency issues? We
:09:43. > :09:47.will come to the woman in the front row. I think you have to look at
:09:48. > :09:52.what is happening. Already we are being told by Andy Burnham, he is
:09:53. > :09:55.your health secretary, saying it is only a matter of time before
:09:56. > :10:01.ordinary people are going to have to start paying a monthly tariff to see
:10:02. > :10:03.their GP. That is privatisation by the back door if ever was.
:10:04. > :10:12.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE The Labour Party does not have to
:10:13. > :10:15.defend what is being done to the health service, we have to stop what
:10:16. > :10:21.is being done to the health service, you can vote for that in 2015. These
:10:22. > :10:26.goddess health service was described by the leader of Scottish doctors as
:10:27. > :10:30.a five-year car crash. -- the Scottish health service. We have
:10:31. > :10:33.targets that are not being met, pressures right now, and the
:10:34. > :10:38.proposal being put forward by the SNP is to take ?6 billion out of our
:10:39. > :10:41.funding. We will have a worse position for our health service than
:10:42. > :10:46.before, and it is profoundly misleading, all of a sudden at this
:10:47. > :10:48.late stage, to be scaremongering around the question of
:10:49. > :10:52.privatisation. I heard the First Minister yesterday acknowledging
:10:53. > :10:56.that it was not under threat of privatisation, it is profoundly
:10:57. > :11:01.unfair to scaremonger amongst people who rely on the health service in
:11:02. > :11:06.the way that they do. We will take a couple of points. Yes. My wife is a
:11:07. > :11:10.senior charge nurse in the NHS, she runs six wards. She is not concerned
:11:11. > :11:14.about what might happen and in England at some point in the future,
:11:15. > :11:24.she is concerned about and stabbing on her ward, bed blocking, of
:11:25. > :11:31.occupancy rates. -- understaffing. She is concerned about the impact on
:11:32. > :11:35.health, welfare and education, that is what is at risk. I would like to
:11:36. > :11:40.point out that the unions are actually saying that Scotland's NHS
:11:41. > :11:43.is under threat. When you say that there is and the stabbing, we have
:11:44. > :11:51.seen the problems that quantitative easing the Barnett formula causes in
:11:52. > :11:56.the police force. -- understaffing. This will happen in the NHS, and we
:11:57. > :12:02.will need to cut corners elsewhere. Charles Kennedy, you opposed that
:12:03. > :12:05.policy. Very much so! Look, the policy decision, the SNP government
:12:06. > :12:09.cannot have it both ways. They cannot say, we control policy and
:12:10. > :12:14.just worry about the money. The policy of the police in Scotland was
:12:15. > :12:18.to have a national, centralised police force. Mrs Thatcher would not
:12:19. > :12:23.have dared do that, Alex Salmond did, and that is not a valid
:12:24. > :12:27.comparison at all, not at all. I would like to go back to Lauren
:12:28. > :12:32.McGovern, who asked the question originally, are the SNP trying to
:12:33. > :12:38.mislead the public over the NHS? You work in the NHS, is that right?
:12:39. > :12:43.Yeah, I work at a local hospital, and what concerns me is that in 2011
:12:44. > :12:46.the SNP manifesto said that the Scottish Government have sole
:12:47. > :12:50.responsibility for running the NHS and the budget, and then it feels
:12:51. > :12:56.like the past few weeks that has kind of been put to the side. Do you
:12:57. > :13:01.think they are passing the buck? Yes! At least one person does! If
:13:02. > :13:06.you look at the data that came out today, we should address the point
:13:07. > :13:09.that the gentleman raised about his wife's concerns. There is a record
:13:10. > :13:16.number of nurses in the health service today. You can talk about
:13:17. > :13:20.funding, but your government chose to spend ?2.4 billion on cutting
:13:21. > :13:25.council tax, and that money could have been spent on the NHS. You
:13:26. > :13:29.could raise tax but you chose not to do it. If we were independent, how
:13:30. > :13:34.much more money would you spend on NHS, welfare and education? We keep
:13:35. > :13:38.on hearing that things are going to improve, but you plan to funded by
:13:39. > :13:42.cutting tax, which is unbelievable! ?12.1 billion deficit, one of the
:13:43. > :13:46.highest in the Western world, how will you deal with that without
:13:47. > :13:47.cutting services for the most vulnerable people in society?
:13:48. > :14:00.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE If you look at the data in
:14:01. > :14:06.government... Well, just hang on. Let him answer. If you look at
:14:07. > :14:10.expenditure and revenue, Scotland is in a stronger financial position and
:14:11. > :14:14.the rest of the UK to the tune of ?8.3 billion. I want to make that
:14:15. > :14:17.well work for the people of Scotland so we can tackle the inequality that
:14:18. > :14:21.is driving the health problems that we have in Scotland.
:14:22. > :14:28.How much extra will you spend on welfare and health? Hang on. The
:14:29. > :14:32.question is - how much extra are you going to spend on all of these
:14:33. > :14:35.things? His position is he doesn't think an independent Scotland could
:14:36. > :14:41.afford to do this. What is your answer? Scotland is in a stronger
:14:42. > :14:45.financial position compared to the rest of the United Kingdom. What
:14:46. > :14:50.that would enable Scotland to do is to invest more in their public
:14:51. > :14:55.services. OK. Wait a second. The UK Government plans to increase public
:14:56. > :14:59.expenditure by 1%. I intend to increase it by 3%. That would enable
:15:00. > :15:04.us to invest more in the Health Service, more in our public services
:15:05. > :15:10.and continue to... OK. And continue to reduce the deficit. It enables us
:15:11. > :15:14.to boost the public finances of Scotland by getting more folk into
:15:15. > :15:18.employment and investing in the fabric of our country. Alright
:15:19. > :15:22.Alright. That is about turning our back on austerity and starting to
:15:23. > :15:36.invest in the prosperity of our country. Thank you. Johann Lamont?
:15:37. > :15:45.That, of course, is the public, Mr Swinney. There would be pressure
:15:46. > :15:49.that would have to be managed. In his own document, he recognises the
:15:50. > :15:54.financial pressures and that this would mean even the services we are
:15:55. > :15:57.delivering now would be hard to deliver. You only have to look at
:15:58. > :16:00.the newspapers, listen to what people is saying about what is
:16:01. > :16:04.happening in the A, the pressures on care, the pressures that nurses
:16:05. > :16:08.are describing, the idea that you can promise everybody the earth and
:16:09. > :16:24.somehow at the same time, cut taxes, simply doesn't add up in terms of
:16:25. > :16:32.arithmetic. OK. The man there, yes? Given Scotland's finances for the
:16:33. > :16:39.NHS comes from the bloc grant - and over time we will run out of money
:16:40. > :16:43.we need - are we not heading towards the American system of private
:16:44. > :16:50.healthcare? That is why people want to keep it in public hands. We have
:16:51. > :16:54.to be honest about how it is funded. We are in control of the services
:16:55. > :17:00.now. Yes, it is under pressure. We need to acknowledge that and work on
:17:01. > :17:10.how we are going to fund it. Joyce McMillan? The underlying question is
:17:11. > :17:13.not what John Swinney is going to do, the underlying question is
:17:14. > :17:19.whether people want to be making these decisions about tax and
:17:20. > :17:26.spending in Edinburgh or in London. APPLAUSE
:17:27. > :17:29.Charles Kennedy? Three or four years ago, I would have answered the
:17:30. > :17:37.question by saying people are people, it doesn't matter if you
:17:38. > :17:41.make them in London or Edinburgh. Now, having looked at what has
:17:42. > :17:44.happened in London, not only on health policy, but on several other
:17:45. > :17:49.areas of policy, I feel turning around that Westminster Parliament
:17:50. > :17:53.to anything like a proper Social Democratic consensus is an almost
:17:54. > :17:57.impossible task and I think it will be easier to get our priorities
:17:58. > :18:03.right if we make those decisions in Edinburgh. I say that not because
:18:04. > :18:08.I'm a Nationalist, but because I'm a Social Democrat. Charles Kennedy,
:18:09. > :18:11.why wouldn't you want people in Scotland to take decisions that
:18:12. > :18:19.affect the people of Scotland? We do. I mean, you know, those of us of
:18:20. > :18:22.an age who fought the devolution campaign against Tory Governments
:18:23. > :18:28.and the likes of Joyce and myself were happy to be on the same
:18:29. > :18:35.platform, that was exactly what the argument was. Now, the argument is
:18:36. > :18:42.moving forward. In fact, it has moved forward further as a result of
:18:43. > :18:47.this referendum campaign. I'm not too critical of either side when
:18:48. > :18:50.they develop their position as the campaign goes on. That is something
:18:51. > :18:53.to celebrate. One of the areas, whether you look at the Health
:18:54. > :18:58.Service - which we are talking about - many of the other areas coming up
:18:59. > :19:03.inevitably what we are moving towards, bit by bit, is a more
:19:04. > :19:10.decentralised, federal United Kingdom. We have already made big
:19:11. > :19:13.moves in Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast, in Greater London, with the
:19:14. > :19:16.elected Mayor and the London Assembly, and it will have to start
:19:17. > :19:27.happening in the regions of England as well. Part of impetus that lies
:19:28. > :19:33.behind that March from Jarrow as we speech. We are more likely to get
:19:34. > :19:38.that and we are more likely to meet Joyce's fair point - if Scotland is
:19:39. > :19:45.in there, absolutely in the vanguard of that move towards a more sane,
:19:46. > :19:52.federal United Kingdom which respects and reflects its
:19:53. > :19:57.constituent parts - if we take our bat and ball away and leave the rest
:19:58. > :20:04.of it to their own devices, that has to be the challenge. Let's move on
:20:05. > :20:12.to some of the questions that Charles Kennedy was referring to
:20:13. > :20:20.there. You can join tonight's debate on Twitter - #bbcindyref is the
:20:21. > :20:25.hashtag. You can go to the BBC Scotland News website to see a
:20:26. > :20:31.selection of comments. The next question? A recent study has shown a
:20:32. > :20:41.million Scots are living in poverty with 100,000 more expected by 2020.
:20:42. > :20:47.What would a Yes or a No vote do to address this issue? Johann Lamont?
:20:48. > :20:51.One of the things that struck me - people will know I was cynical about
:20:52. > :20:59.the whole referendum question. What I'm struck by, people on either side
:21:00. > :21:03.made the decision a long time ago. In the middle, there are people who
:21:04. > :21:07.are testing the arguments on the basis of what can we do, how do we
:21:08. > :21:12.create a fairer society, how do we make sure we address the problems of
:21:13. > :21:16.poverty and disadvantage. I have been committed to acting on these
:21:17. > :21:22.questions and I look at this question, whether it is more likely
:21:23. > :21:26.or less likely you can make progress in these policies. I think that once
:21:27. > :21:29.we have passed the decision, whatever that decision might be, we
:21:30. > :21:34.do need to find a way of coming together to talk about how do you
:21:35. > :21:41.really make a difference. When Labour was in power, we did a lot of
:21:42. > :21:45.work around investing in working families, supporting lone parents
:21:46. > :21:49.and making sure public services responded properly to people. We
:21:50. > :21:55.need to do more. We lifted a lot of children out of poverty by bringing
:21:56. > :21:59.together the politics... OK. I want us to go back to that. If you have
:22:00. > :22:05.spent your whole political life devoted to this and there are a
:22:06. > :22:10.million Scots classed as being in poverty, hasn't your whole political
:22:11. > :22:17.life failed? Well, you might as well say the same thing to the charities
:22:18. > :22:22.who give voice to women, children across the country. No, you don't
:22:23. > :22:26.give up. We are not in the same place as we were in when I was a wee
:22:27. > :22:33.girl. The opportunities are far different from the wee girl I was in
:22:34. > :22:37.inner city Glasgow. My concern is we have gone back. Scotland has been on
:22:38. > :22:45.pause while we should have been wrestling with these questions. OK.
:22:46. > :22:55.Let's move that on. The question was how would a No or a Yes vote address
:22:56. > :23:00.poverty? It is an intractable problem. I don't think any political
:23:01. > :23:05.party in Scotland has anything to be proud of. Labour did indeed - and
:23:06. > :23:09.that's a fair comment - do a little to lift families and children out of
:23:10. > :23:12.poverty. The trouble with the last Labour Government was that it was
:23:13. > :23:15.doing these things which were good enough in themselves while, at the
:23:16. > :23:21.same time, continuing to subscribe to the kind of general ideology
:23:22. > :23:25.about how a society would work which pushes down wages, takes away
:23:26. > :23:29.people's security and enhances poverty. Unless you are brave enough
:23:30. > :23:35.to make some kind of ideological attack on that, on the idea that you
:23:36. > :23:38.have to be a low-wage, rubbish-worked economy to make your
:23:39. > :23:42.way in the modern world, you are not going to get very far in tackling
:23:43. > :23:47.poverty. People need good jobs. They need secure jobs. We need to stop
:23:48. > :23:55.running our labour market to suit the needs of bad employers - and
:23:56. > :23:59.that includes subsidising bad employers by people huge amounts of
:24:00. > :24:03.in-work benefits. We need a much more radical approach to this. That
:24:04. > :24:12.goes for all the political parties, Labour, the SNP and the Lib Dems.
:24:13. > :24:22.OK. Let's take what is our first point from an undecided member of
:24:23. > :24:25.the audience. Yes? I work for a disabl ed people's organisation and
:24:26. > :24:29.we see how the current cuts in our welfare system are disadvantaging
:24:30. > :24:34.disabled people. I want to know if either side can guarantee a better
:24:35. > :24:39.benefits system for disabled people? Charles Kennedy, your party is
:24:40. > :24:44.partly responsible for this? Yes and I've - we are in Government and I'm
:24:45. > :24:51.not an uncritical member of Better Together and I'm not an uncritical
:24:52. > :24:55.member of the Liberal Democrats. What is your point in relation to
:24:56. > :25:01.independence? My point is coming right back to (a) I hope we can meet
:25:02. > :25:07.that - and in answering the lady I will tell you why. If you look at
:25:08. > :25:11.the whole of history, poverty, social poverty, has been best
:25:12. > :25:15.addressed when the politicians actually get beyond what all too
:25:16. > :25:24.often is our poverty of ambition. And one of my political heroes is
:25:25. > :25:29.Franklin D Roosevelt and in the midst of the most appalling
:25:30. > :25:33.depression in the middle of the 20th Century in the United States, he
:25:34. > :25:36.came forward with a new deal and he shook the timbers of the
:25:37. > :25:40.establishment right across that continent and he transformed it in a
:25:41. > :25:45.way that he built a consensus that lasted for another 40 or 50 years.
:25:46. > :25:50.Now, that is what we need to do in the United Kingdom as well. One of
:25:51. > :25:53.the things that struck me, both as a participant, but equally as an
:25:54. > :25:58.observer of programmes like this over the course of the past few
:25:59. > :26:06.weeks in particular, is there is no poverty of ambition in Scottish -
:26:07. > :26:13.and I would also say UK politics. If it is a No vote on September 19th
:26:14. > :26:16.onwards, we need to use the clear political ambition that's there
:26:17. > :26:20.right across the spectrum with fresh thinking, new ideas and a greater
:26:21. > :26:25.sense of impetus than we have had before. We can do it in Scotland. We
:26:26. > :26:27.can do it in our reform in the United Kingdom and we can do
:26:28. > :26:33.something about poverty in an imaginative way that has not been
:26:34. > :26:37.seen post-war in this country. That has to be the ambition. That has to
:26:38. > :26:43.be the challenge that we are putting in front of ourselves as Scots. The
:26:44. > :26:53.audience are waiting to come in. You had your hand high up in the air? I
:26:54. > :26:58.have been working for the past couple of months and it is a
:26:59. > :27:01.disheartening job to be working in. People have said to me they have not
:27:02. > :27:06.eaten for the past two days. That is the type of situation...
:27:07. > :27:11.Independence would solve that, would it? The question I will put is: Most
:27:12. > :27:19.of the people... Let's hear her answer. Sir, let's hear her answer.
:27:20. > :27:22.Yes? There has been a lot of angry men shouting but I would like to
:27:23. > :27:29.have a civil one. Basically, the main reason they are coming to me is
:27:30. > :27:34.for benefit sanctions which the Labour Party have not stood strongly
:27:35. > :27:39.against. The question of independence is not for the SNP and
:27:40. > :27:44.we have to stop misconstruing this. The question of independence is now
:27:45. > :27:47.saying we have the opportunity in 2014 to take a new Scotland, to put
:27:48. > :27:50.the power in people's hands and start asking what we want from
:27:51. > :27:54.society. Thank you. That is what independence gives us. Thank you
:27:55. > :27:59.very much. APPLAUSE
:28:00. > :28:03.Isn't the inherent problem here, John Swinney, isn't the problem
:28:04. > :28:07.always going to come back to the same thing? Where is all this money
:28:08. > :28:11.going to come from? It must be difficult and expensive to solve
:28:12. > :28:15.poverty if it has not been achieved in the United Kingdom, why should it
:28:16. > :28:18.be different, why would it be different in an independent
:28:19. > :28:22.Scotland? We would have all of the tools at our disposal to live up to
:28:23. > :28:26.values that have just been set out by the young woman there. What
:28:27. > :28:31.tools? Well, the tools of integrating a tax and benefit system
:28:32. > :28:34.so we incentivise people to go into employment, to have the ability to
:28:35. > :28:37.establish linked-up employment programmes which would work with our
:28:38. > :28:42.charities, the young lady at the back talked about the people with
:28:43. > :28:47.disabilities. I have seen many good examples of - we are funding them
:28:48. > :28:53.already, Sir. And I have seen very good examples - the problem with the
:28:54. > :28:57.projects that we have got just now is that all the good work that we
:28:58. > :29:00.are doing has been undone by the welfare cuts made by the United
:29:01. > :29:04.Kingdom Government that's forcing more and more people into the
:29:05. > :29:13.self-same food banks that we have just heard about a moment ago. OK.
:29:14. > :29:19.That is the route of the problem. -- root of the problem. We have known
:29:20. > :29:26.about the problem for years. We have known about it from the Labour
:29:27. > :29:30.Government who have tried to tackle the issues. Why is it going up? We
:29:31. > :29:32.have to take better decisions here in Scotland according to our values
:29:33. > :29:45.and our aspirations. wanted to take better decisions to
:29:46. > :29:49.better your view on poverty, why did you freeze the council tax for
:29:50. > :29:53.everyone across the income spectrum? I could have paid more, I didn't
:29:54. > :29:57.need a freeze, it could have been used to help local councils and
:29:58. > :30:04.people in poverty, but you chose not to do that. That policy hit the
:30:05. > :30:07.poor, didn't it? No, it didn't... The council tax freeze had a
:30:08. > :30:12.disproportionately big impact on incomes of those who are poorer
:30:13. > :30:18.within our society, that is the data... That is the data on the
:30:19. > :30:22.council tax freeze. What we did was take the heat off a lot of hard
:30:23. > :30:26.pressed, working families who were being absolutely hammered by
:30:27. > :30:32.sky-high increases in council tax, that is why we froze council tax.
:30:33. > :30:39.OK. Thank you. A lot of people benefited, but the poorest people,
:30:40. > :30:42.they did not benefit most. I would also say this - there are a lot of
:30:43. > :30:46.things the Scottish Government can do, and one of the big things to get
:30:47. > :30:51.people out of poverty is to get them ready for work. A critical role is
:30:52. > :30:55.colleges, for people living in poverty, who don't do particularly
:30:56. > :31:00.well at school, I thought many of them, and they get a second chance
:31:01. > :31:05.at college. Why, of all places, as cuts come disproportionately in the
:31:06. > :31:09.college sector? 140,000 places fewer, women in particular
:31:10. > :31:12.suffering, and as a consequence women who need part-time education
:31:13. > :31:15.to get skills to work are disproportionately affected. These
:31:16. > :31:19.are the very mums who can make a difference to families if they were
:31:20. > :31:22.supported. There is not one policy the Scottish Government has
:31:23. > :31:27.promoted, no matter how good they are, that redistributes wealth from
:31:28. > :31:34.the rich to the poor, that is the reality. At the back in blue, yes. I
:31:35. > :31:38.have two quick points. My understanding of the Scotland act
:31:39. > :31:43.from 1998, which set up the Scottish Parliament as a devolved power,
:31:44. > :31:49.could add a stroke be cutout by Westminster at any time of its
:31:50. > :31:54.choosing. The whole of the Scottish Parliament could be completely
:31:55. > :31:58.dissolved. The second point is, it is very telling that throughout this
:31:59. > :32:02.whole debate in Scotland there has not been one single conservative
:32:03. > :32:08.person come to speak at an event, because, let's be realistic, I
:32:09. > :32:13.admire you greatly, jars, but you will not have a cat's chance in hell
:32:14. > :32:22.of forming the next UK Government, and therefore you will have no
:32:23. > :32:25.power, you can promise as nothing. In fairness, the last time John
:32:26. > :32:30.Swinney was on this programme, he was sitting alongside Ruth Davidson,
:32:31. > :32:37.but anyway, let's go down to the front. I would like to raise, OK,
:32:38. > :32:42.you have froze the council tax, but it affected people on low incomes -
:32:43. > :32:50.it did not benefit them. Then education, example, free education
:32:51. > :32:57.became no education. Why did it become no education? Because the
:32:58. > :33:02.colleges merged. You cut the spaces, students that had a space lost their
:33:03. > :33:07.space. Not only that, you cut... Well, I could keep going on. We have
:33:08. > :33:12.the point, thank you very much. Joyce McMillan. I agree with the
:33:13. > :33:16.criticisms of SNP policy, I do not approve of the council tax freeze,
:33:17. > :33:19.councils should have more power to vary tax, and we need a radical
:33:20. > :33:26.reform of local government in Scotland. I agree that we need much
:33:27. > :33:33.more local government in Scotland, and I think that, you know, as far
:33:34. > :33:37.as the colleges policy and so on is concerned, I don't agree with what
:33:38. > :33:41.the SNP do. But those are not arguments against independence, they
:33:42. > :33:45.are arguments against the policy of the current SNP government. So in a
:33:46. > :33:49.sense, I feel as if we are slightly drifting off the point in the sense
:33:50. > :33:52.that, of course, you can disagree with things that the present
:33:53. > :33:56.governance has done, but unless you believe that Scotland is such a
:33:57. > :33:58.naturally impoverished place that we would have absolutely no room for
:33:59. > :34:03.manoeuvre in setting policies at all, and I don't believe that, then
:34:04. > :34:08.the fact is that if we have an independent Scotland, you can vote
:34:09. > :34:14.for someone else. In one sentence, if you please. The logic of that
:34:15. > :34:17.position is that you can disagree with Tory policies and still want to
:34:18. > :34:21.be part of the United Kingdom, that is what we are saying. We will get a
:34:22. > :34:23.Labour government is what we are saying. We will get a Labour
:34:24. > :34:28.government next day, all the figures are showing that. Why would we want
:34:29. > :34:32.not to deal with the policies of the Tory government inside the security
:34:33. > :34:36.of the United Kingdom? But it will be a centre-left Labour government
:34:37. > :34:41.centre right? Of course it will. That is the question. We are talking
:34:42. > :34:48.about hours contracts, talking with women about how they would end
:34:49. > :34:52.zero-hours contracts. We argued for a living wage, and it was the SNP
:34:53. > :34:57.who voted it down, that is something we would do at UK level. It is about
:34:58. > :35:01.political choice, not the constitution, and we need to get
:35:02. > :35:07.back to that argument. I would like to move on, very brief. With all due
:35:08. > :35:11.respect to Joyce, I cannot help, and with the point raised at the back a
:35:12. > :35:16.moment ago, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say this is all
:35:17. > :35:19.about the rebate and re-establishment of democracy, and
:35:20. > :35:24.then at the wave of a hand right of three political parties as having no
:35:25. > :35:28.choice and no relevance, and Joyce slightly saying, oh, its defence,
:35:29. > :35:33.even if we got a Labour government, would it be centre-left or centre
:35:34. > :35:37.right? Well, I'm on a minute. If you are making a great democratic
:35:38. > :35:43.choice, you have got to accept the outcome of that choice in due
:35:44. > :35:49.course, not just... I am making this choice providing ident get precisely
:35:50. > :35:54.what I want ideologically! That is not a logical position, not a
:35:55. > :35:58.logical position. Charles, that really does not come well from a
:35:59. > :36:02.Liberal Democrat, YouGov and a lot of votes at the last election, as
:36:03. > :36:08.you know, by positioning to the left of the Labour Party. -- you
:36:09. > :36:14.garnered. That includes student grants and you absolutely... You
:36:15. > :36:18.have made the point. If you are going to stand on left-wing policies
:36:19. > :36:28.and then moved to the right when you are elected, who can trust you?
:36:29. > :36:32.Thank you very much. I... OK. As Joyce will knows, because she has
:36:33. > :36:36.been complementing the about days gone by, I stand on the same values
:36:37. > :36:44.and principles I always stood on, and the policies on which I led the
:36:45. > :36:49.Liberal Democrats. We are going to take the next question, which is
:36:50. > :36:53.from Dorothy Duncan. In last night's debate in Glasgow, to the
:36:54. > :37:00.panel think that Mr Salmond was able to allay concerns to the electorate
:37:01. > :37:04.regarding the currency issue? Thank you very much. Thank you very much
:37:05. > :37:09.indeed, to the panel think Mr Salmond was able to allay concerns
:37:10. > :37:13.about currency? Charles Kennedy. I do not think he laid the concerns of
:37:14. > :37:17.those who have great doubts and questions about it. In fact, and is
:37:18. > :37:21.rather surprised me as a matter of fact, he rhetorically went on the
:37:22. > :37:25.front foot, and I would try to be a fair judge of this. I would say, as
:37:26. > :37:30.a debating performance last night, Alex Salmond clearly won in the way
:37:31. > :37:34.that Alistair Darling won a couple of weeks earlier, but I do not think
:37:35. > :37:41.these debates, to be honest, I was not cock-a-hoop, with either
:37:42. > :37:45.victory. I think it is much more complicated than that, it is not a
:37:46. > :37:50.presidential election, it is a much bigger debate, as we are reflecting
:37:51. > :37:56.here. In terms of the currency, the things that surprised me, in going
:37:57. > :38:02.on the front foot, he actually said, I have got three Plan Bs. Now, this
:38:03. > :38:06.could be a clever tactic. This could be a clever tactic in the sense of
:38:07. > :38:10.take as much dust in your opponents's eyes as you can. That
:38:11. > :38:15.could work for him, I don't think it will. But he also said, I want a
:38:16. > :38:19.mandate, and this was the development of the argued that we
:38:20. > :38:23.had not heard before, and it is a very interesting development in this
:38:24. > :38:28.campaign. I want you, ladies and gentlemen, he said, to give me a
:38:29. > :38:32.mandate to go and negotiate the best outcome, the best option for
:38:33. > :38:36.Scotland. Now, just think about the language for a moment, if you
:38:37. > :38:41.please. If I say to you, give me a mandate and I will get the best deal
:38:42. > :38:44.I can, the implication is, I will come back and tell you what it is
:38:45. > :38:50.and you will say you opt for or against it. He doesn't remind you,
:38:51. > :38:55.they will go away, he might trade to get a deal, he made me not get a
:38:56. > :38:59.deal. -- he may try. Let's concede as much of it to him as possible, he
:39:00. > :39:03.will sure as anything come back and say it is the best deal that was
:39:04. > :39:10.available, but he will not ask you in a second referendum, is that what
:39:11. > :39:13.you want? That is the implication of the mandate adamant, a complete ruse
:39:14. > :39:22.on people, and I think it will be his downfall. -- the mandate
:39:23. > :39:26.argument. OK. Just taking a gamble, can we afford to take a gamble?
:39:27. > :39:34.Where will we back our currency? What will happen if large businesses
:39:35. > :39:37.leave? John Swinney. The First Minister set out a clear
:39:38. > :39:41.proposition... Give him a break! He set out the proposition that the
:39:42. > :39:45.Scottish Government is putting forward, which is to argue for a
:39:46. > :39:49.currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of
:39:50. > :39:51.the United Kingdom which is in the interests of both an independent
:39:52. > :39:55.Scotland and the rest of the UK. What he also did was made very clear
:39:56. > :39:59.that we have done all the groundwork to set out what are the different
:40:00. > :40:04.options that would be there for an independent Scotland if it chose to
:40:05. > :40:08.do so, but our priority, our preference, our argument, our best
:40:09. > :40:10.argument, the one that our independent experts believed to be
:40:11. > :40:15.in the interest of an independent Scotland, was to keep the pound as
:40:16. > :40:18.part of a currency union, and I thought the First Minister got that
:40:19. > :40:30.across very clearly, very powerfully. Yes, the man, Batman, in
:40:31. > :40:34.fact! When I leave here today, I am going to go home on the bus. I do
:40:35. > :40:38.not have a Plan B, just in case there is not one. But I might get a
:40:39. > :40:43.taxi, I might get a train, I might do a million things. But I will
:40:44. > :40:48.eventually get home. Realistically, I'm going to get a bus, we are going
:40:49. > :40:51.to use the pound, no-one can stop us from using the pound. Can we talk
:40:52. > :40:59.about something else for a bit?! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:41:00. > :41:04.I am sorry to say we are going to talk about it for a little bit
:41:05. > :41:10.longer! Johann Lamont. It reflected on last night's debate, if shouting
:41:11. > :41:19.won the debate, Alex Salmond won it. I have to say... As someone
:41:20. > :41:26.who... Johann, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! I
:41:27. > :41:30.thought it took the look of myself and Nicola Sturgeon, but the idea
:41:31. > :41:34.that you can flippantly say, it is like buses, when you're talking
:41:35. > :41:39.about something as serious as a currency, that is gravely concerning
:41:40. > :41:42.to me. But Scotland will have a currency, isn't that the point? The
:41:43. > :41:47.First Minister could argue you would be able to expect the sovereign
:41:48. > :41:50.right of the people of Scotland, but curiously significant part of the
:41:51. > :41:57.Yes campaign to not agree with the First Minister on this. Whatever
:41:58. > :42:00.this mandate is, he has not got the ability to mandate the rest of the
:42:01. > :42:05.United Kingdom and their position. Let's be clear, what we are asking
:42:06. > :42:08.is the Bank of England to stand behind our banks. The Bank of
:42:09. > :42:12.England is supported by the UK Government, which can only do that
:42:13. > :42:16.because it is supported by taxpayers right across the United Kingdom.
:42:17. > :42:20.Let's think, something happens to a bank in Scotland, the taxpayers of
:42:21. > :42:24.the rest of the United Kingdom have to step in to protect our banks
:42:25. > :42:27.despite the fact that we are not contributing to that. That makes no
:42:28. > :42:30.sense for the rest of the United Kingdom, and I cannot imagine why we
:42:31. > :42:36.would want to put ourselves in that position either. It makes no sense.
:42:37. > :42:40.Once we are separate countries, we sadly to each other nothing, and we
:42:41. > :42:44.deserve better from a First Minister who is making the case for Scotland
:42:45. > :42:48.to do something as dramatic as leaving the United Kingdom, to
:42:49. > :42:52.explain in simple terms what he is going to do. What he is proposing
:42:53. > :42:57.now is sterlingisation, which Professor Ronald McDonald has said
:42:58. > :43:06.would mean a deficit of ?12.6 billion, not six point zero billion
:43:07. > :43:11.pounds. -- not ?6 billion. I would like to ask the women in the
:43:12. > :43:16.undecideds in the middle, yes, with the glasses. I wanted to address the
:43:17. > :43:20.currency debate. By discipline, I am an economist, and I have invested in
:43:21. > :43:25.different currencies around the world. Thank goodness you are here!
:43:26. > :43:30.I get so irritated by this. I think this is a political football. I
:43:31. > :43:33.actually think Alex Salmond's response last night was an adequate
:43:34. > :43:37.response. APPLAUSE
:43:38. > :43:46.The thing that concerns me, though, is if we votes yes on September the
:43:47. > :43:53.18th, I am not convinced that all the negotiations can happen in the
:43:54. > :43:56.18 months timetable, and I want to table, maybe this is ten years of
:43:57. > :44:04.negotiation and doesn't really matter. Joyce McMillan, please. I
:44:05. > :44:07.think that is right. I think the 18 months is indeed extremely
:44:08. > :44:10.optimistic. You could declare an independent state, but you can bet
:44:11. > :44:14.your bottom dollar, and indeed we might be using the dollar, that
:44:15. > :44:18.there would be another decade of negotiations, it is a very
:44:19. > :44:24.complicated situation, but the fact is that if there is a yes vote, then
:44:25. > :44:28.the whole structure of power in the UK will change overnight. And if
:44:29. > :44:31.there is one thing I have learnt about dealing with Westminster over
:44:32. > :44:36.the years as a civic campaigner is that you have to play hardball, you
:44:37. > :44:41.have to have power in order to bring them to the negotiating table. And
:44:42. > :44:46.when the Scottish people votes yes, if they do, then the whole balance
:44:47. > :44:49.of power will change, and the civil servants in Whitehall and everyone
:44:50. > :44:52.else in the structure of British Government will have to start
:44:53. > :44:56.thinking, what is the best outcome that we can now get from this new
:44:57. > :45:02.situation? And that will change their thinking. No, that will change
:45:03. > :45:05.their thinking about everything. There will be a long and congregated
:45:06. > :45:13.negotiation on issues like Trident, and on how it is going to take to
:45:14. > :45:16.decommission Trident. -- long and conjugated. There will be issues
:45:17. > :45:20.about the whole of the energy industry in Scotland, how it is
:45:21. > :45:24.handled, issues about how the assets of the United Kingdom are divided
:45:25. > :45:27.up. Scotland will go into that negotiation with plenty of cars in
:45:28. > :45:34.its hand, and you can bet your bottom dollar and agreement will be
:45:35. > :45:37.reached. As Alex Salmond said last night, there is no country in the
:45:38. > :45:39.world last night that does not have a working currency.
:45:40. > :45:50.Yes? If Scotland does become independent, this is all - it is not
:45:51. > :45:57.about the pound. If we applied to re-join the EU, we would be forced
:45:58. > :46:02.to accept the euro. John Swinney? Could I make three
:46:03. > :46:09.brief points? The lady's... Three? They will be very brief. If you want
:46:10. > :46:13.to join the euro, it starts with a voluntary act of joining the
:46:14. > :46:16.Exchange Rate Mechanism. An independent Scotland wouldn't do so.
:46:17. > :46:27.The lady asked about the timescale for transition for negotiation. The
:46:28. > :46:30.UK Government's legal adviser said our 18-month timescale was "about
:46:31. > :46:35.accurate" - Professor James Crawford. The final point - one of
:46:36. > :46:38.the revelations about the currency last night was one of the points
:46:39. > :46:43.that Alistair Darling made. In one of his responses he said, "Of course
:46:44. > :46:47.you can use the pound." I have got a leaflet here from Johann Lamont
:46:48. > :46:50.which says in response to a question, "What will the currency be
:46:51. > :47:01.in an independent Scotland?" She says, "It won't be the pound."
:47:02. > :47:06.Johann Lamont? Because like your fiscal commission, I couldn't
:47:07. > :47:13.possibly conceive that anybody was serious about protecting public
:47:14. > :47:17.services in Scotland would want to have sterlingisation. Not to be able
:47:18. > :47:21.to rely on your funding... Is Alistair Darling right when he
:47:22. > :47:29.Scotland could use the pound? Scotland could use the pound. So
:47:30. > :47:34.that is wrong? That is it. This leaflet that is going around the
:47:35. > :47:40.houses, like all the rest of it, is absolute rubbish. We heard it from
:47:41. > :47:45.Johann Lamont tonight. No. Look, this is not a game. No, it is not a
:47:46. > :47:51.game. This is total rubbish! We have heard it tonight. Hang on a second.
:47:52. > :47:55.Johann Lamont? Because of the unbelievable damage it would do to
:47:56. > :48:01.the people of Scotland. We would not want to advocate using the pound
:48:02. > :48:12.like Panama uses the dollar. Joyce McMillan? One thing that puzzles me
:48:13. > :48:18.is the lack of attention paid to the many countries becoming independent
:48:19. > :48:25.of the UK, including Ireland. They used something which was effectively
:48:26. > :48:29.the pound, which they called "the punt". Treasury officials were
:48:30. > :48:33.helpful to the Irish government in setting that up. I really cannot
:48:34. > :48:37.think why people think that it is going to be more difficult for us to
:48:38. > :48:44.negotiate some kind of arrangement to use the pound if we think that is
:48:45. > :48:51.the best solution for us. After a perfectly peaceful referendum, when
:48:52. > :48:59.Ireland was able to do that after a bitter and civil war. Ireland did
:49:00. > :49:05.progress... Charles Kennedy? Ireland did progress once it went into the
:49:06. > :49:11.euro. Charles Kennedy? Do you think Scotland should go into the euro?
:49:12. > :49:15.No. Ironically, a number of years ago, Alex Salmond and I would have
:49:16. > :49:19.been on the same side of the debate calling for a referendum on the
:49:20. > :49:24.principle if the UK was ready for entry to get a Yes vote so
:49:25. > :49:27.Parliament at that point could have decided to enter the euro had the
:49:28. > :49:32.conditions been right. Time has moved on. We both are not of the
:49:33. > :49:36.view that the euro is a good option for us. Let's get this point about
:49:37. > :49:41.this rhetoric in last night's debate - I don't want to disappoint our
:49:42. > :49:50.friends over here on the Yes side - it is a good rhetorical debating
:49:51. > :49:54.point. If Alistair Darling had completed the sentence, "Look at the
:49:55. > :49:59.debate, ladies and gentlemen..." He was in the middle of saying,
:50:00. > :50:08."Scotland could use the pound..." And he went on to say, "The rouble."
:50:09. > :50:12.It's a pound which isn't backed by a Central Bank, so there's a run on
:50:13. > :50:21.the pound, if there is a run, you are stuffed. It's a pound, remember,
:50:22. > :50:25.which if you were using it in that independent fashion, not the UK
:50:26. > :50:28.sterling that we have at the moment, Alex Salmond made clear if they
:50:29. > :50:34.don't give us that, his idea of negotiation, we wouldn't settle or
:50:35. > :50:38.shoulder the debts and if you didn't do that on day one of an independent
:50:39. > :50:43.Scotland, never mind London and the terrible people down there, the
:50:44. > :50:52.international markets would have you for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I
:50:53. > :50:57.want to put that to John Swinney. Alex Salmond said in last night's
:50:58. > :51:03.debate if you deny us the financial assets, the UK will get stuck with
:51:04. > :51:07.all of the liabilities. Is that now your firm position, you would
:51:08. > :51:10.definitely walk away, call it what you will, from the debt if there was
:51:11. > :51:15.no currency union? Is that your firm position? Alex Salmond said last
:51:16. > :51:20.night that our preferred option was a currency union... We all know
:51:21. > :51:24.that. We know that. It is important that... Everybody knows that. It is
:51:25. > :51:27.important that I fully answer your question. We support a currency
:51:28. > :51:32.union in which we would take our fair share of the debt that's been
:51:33. > :51:36.built up over time. If the UK is going to seize the assets, then it
:51:37. > :51:42.is welcome to all the liabilities. We won't be having any of them if
:51:43. > :51:50.that is how the UK behaves. OK. We are rapidly running out of time.
:51:51. > :51:56.Another question from Helen Kevlin? The amount of oil to be obtained in
:51:57. > :52:01.the future has been reported with conflicting views. Who is telling
:52:02. > :52:09.the truth? Sir Ian Wood, who is an expert in the field, a businessman
:52:10. > :52:13.of some note, says it's between 15.5 billion and 16 billion barrels
:52:14. > :52:17.remain. Joyce McMillan? I don't know who is telling the truth and what's
:52:18. > :52:29.more, I don't think anyone else does. The future is unwritten, oil
:52:30. > :52:33.is a volatile resource and an independent Scotland would be well
:52:34. > :52:38.advised not to be too dependent on it. In any case, if we want to have
:52:39. > :52:42.a genuinely sustainable future, we should be thinking about leaving
:52:43. > :52:47.some of that oil in the ground and not exploiting it at all. However,
:52:48. > :52:51.the idea that Scotland having this oil wealth, which we have, is
:52:52. > :52:57.somehow a bad thing, because it inflicts volatility on our economy,
:52:58. > :53:01.seems to me to be fairly ridiculous. There are many, many countries in
:53:02. > :53:07.the world - Norway being the most obvious - which have managed to
:53:08. > :53:12.found a very strong national economy by using their oil wealth wisely. I
:53:13. > :53:16.do not think the greatest friend of the UK as a union could possibly
:53:17. > :53:20.argue that Scotland's oil wealth has been used wisely for the future of
:53:21. > :53:26.the people of the United Kingdom. Johann Lamont? Since it was
:53:27. > :53:30.discovered in 1970. The argument being that Westminster squandered
:53:31. > :53:37.the oil then. Why trust them not to squander it in the future? Looking
:53:38. > :53:40.forward, what we are told is that there is a great range of options in
:53:41. > :53:47.terms of what would come out of the ground. What is Labour's position? I
:53:48. > :53:51.was very much affected by Sir Ian Wood's contribution. It felt like he
:53:52. > :53:55.didn't want to come into this debate. He said for the interests of
:53:56. > :54:00.my children and grandchildren, they need to know from now until they are
:54:01. > :54:04.middle-aged, oil will be something that no longer contributes majorly
:54:05. > :54:07.to the economy. People need to understand the implications of that.
:54:08. > :54:12.They will know the figures better than I do. Last year, the amount of
:54:13. > :54:16.money raised came in at ?4 billion less than was estimated by the
:54:17. > :54:19.Scottish Government. We are talking about how we are going to fund our
:54:20. > :54:23.Health Service, our schools. How are we going to do that with a resource
:54:24. > :54:29.that is so volatile? Across the whole of the United Kingdom, you can
:54:30. > :54:34.manage that volatility. John's spending plans are based on oil and
:54:35. > :54:40.that is a volatile resource. I am concerned that we will get ourselves
:54:41. > :54:42.in a position where the most generous estimate comes from the
:54:43. > :54:46.Scottish Government. They have to guarantee that to deal with the
:54:47. > :54:53.pressures on public services. Let's put that to John Swinney. Johann
:54:54. > :54:56.Lamont is right, there was a 41% drop in revenue from North Sea oil
:54:57. > :54:59.in the last financial year. If that happened in the first year of an
:55:00. > :55:05.independent Scotland, we would be in trouble? We can see oil forecasts
:55:06. > :55:09.moves in both directions. Alistair Darling forecast there would be ?5
:55:10. > :55:14.billion of revenues coming from oil and gas - and it turned out to be
:55:15. > :55:20.?11 billion. So he was ?6 billion adrift. So, what you do - and what
:55:21. > :55:23.we set out - is that you need to have an oil stabilisation fund.
:55:24. > :55:26.Where you gain on the one year, you hold that to balance if you have got
:55:27. > :55:31.years where you don't deliver as many revenues... Isn't the first few
:55:32. > :55:33.years, before you can set that up, you would struggle to balance the
:55:34. > :55:35.books if there was a big you would struggle to balance the
:55:36. > :55:41.books if there was a drop like last year? My point was about the oil
:55:42. > :55:44.stabilisation fund, James. You use gains to cushion underrealisation of
:55:45. > :55:52.resources that come in general. If you look at the issue about the
:55:53. > :55:56.volume of resources, James, the 24 billion barrel oils of figure comes
:55:57. > :56:04.from the industry. It's been backed by... Up to 24 billion - 12 to 24
:56:05. > :56:18.billion range. Backed up by a range of experts, like Professor Alex Kemp
:56:19. > :56:23.or Professor Donald Mackay. Ian Wood in 2012 gave an interview to Douglas
:56:24. > :56:28.Fraser in which he said 24 billion barrels was what could be expected
:56:29. > :56:31.to come out... Charles Kennedy? OK. There is a significant opportunity
:56:32. > :56:34.for Scotland and we should make sure we seize that opportunity and not
:56:35. > :56:42.see it squandered like it was the last time.
:56:43. > :56:49.One of the things about this whole referendum - and why I'm looking
:56:50. > :56:54.forward to the 19th - we will not have to switch on the television and
:56:55. > :56:58.have another expert, professor, and none of them damn well seem to agree
:56:59. > :57:03.with each other and it leave it is lay person in the middle even more
:57:04. > :57:07.confused! It was so much simpler in the 1970s, the SNP said, "It's
:57:08. > :57:12.Scotland's oil" and you either agreed or you didn't. It doesn't
:57:13. > :57:17.matter how many barrels of oil there are even if it stretches to
:57:18. > :57:25.infinity. You are going to turn this small country of ours into a petrol
:57:26. > :57:30.currency with an unknown future in terms of which mode of currency you
:57:31. > :57:34.are using, and that uncertainty underpinned by not paying your debts
:57:35. > :57:40.from day one. Charles Kennedy, thank you very much. Thank you very much.
:57:41. > :57:44.That will be a recipe for disaster. Very sorry to tell you that our time
:57:45. > :57:49.is up. It has flown by. We are back next Wednesday when we will be in
:57:50. > :58:00.Aberdeen. On our panel the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, Jim
:58:01. > :58:08.Murphy, Brian Souter and Annabel Goldie. Our final programme will be
:58:09. > :58:12.in Stirling. To join the audience, go to:
:58:13. > :58:15.Thank you to the panel. Thank you to our audience and from Leith Academy
:58:16. > :58:18.in Edinburgh, a very good night.