:00:00. > :00:10.Tonight, half of the entire studio audience is 21 and under.
:00:11. > :00:15.Sitting opposite, our older audience.
:00:16. > :00:43.And at the heart of this show, the top table.
:00:44. > :00:49.On this programme, we really are giving young people priority
:00:50. > :00:52.because that's a voice that is sometimes missing
:00:53. > :00:57.What does a new generation actually want?
:00:58. > :01:04.One half of this entire studio is filled with people aged 21 or under.
:01:05. > :01:07.The other half is older and we've politicians from all five
:01:08. > :01:11.of Northern Ireland's main parties here tonight too.
:01:12. > :01:15.But on this show, and it will always be the same,
:01:16. > :01:20.young people have the seats facing them at the top table.
:01:21. > :01:22.Joining us at the top table tonight...
:01:23. > :01:33.Thomas Copeland, Aoife Hollywood, Jack O'Dwyer-Henry,
:01:34. > :01:50.Right, let's get stuck into the first question.
:01:51. > :01:53.There it is tonight, the first question is about Brexit
:01:54. > :01:59.What's more important to you - living in the UK
:02:00. > :02:04.I'm going to start off just by saying I'd rather live
:02:05. > :02:06.in the world's fifth largest economy than the world's 40th
:02:07. > :02:11.I know that there are ideological reasons why perhaps Ireland should
:02:12. > :02:15.be unified, but I don't want to have to pay 50 euros every time
:02:16. > :02:20.I want to live in a country where the NHS is free on delivery.
:02:21. > :02:22.And as well as that, I think it's very important
:02:23. > :02:24.to stress, let's not pre-empt the results of Brexit.
:02:25. > :02:27.We don't know what's going to happen, and anyone who says
:02:28. > :02:29.they do know what's going to happen after Brexit is lying.
:02:30. > :02:34.You want to run the referendum again, you want a second vote.
:02:35. > :02:40.I want a second vote on the terms of the final deal.
:02:41. > :02:42.So you're not going to accept the referendum result?
:02:43. > :02:46.I want another referendum on the terms of the final deal,
:02:47. > :02:48.and that's so important for Northern Ireland.
:02:49. > :02:50.We are the only place to have a hard border.
:02:51. > :02:53.We need to be able to have another shout out as to
:02:54. > :03:01.I believe passionately in the United Kingdom.
:03:02. > :03:05.It is, as Thomas has said, one of the fastest-growing
:03:06. > :03:14.It is a fact that the Irish Republic does more trade with
:03:15. > :03:17.the United Kingdom than anywhere else in the world so also
:03:18. > :03:21.the Republic is tied in very strongly, in trading terms,
:03:22. > :03:27.And so we need to ensure that we get the best deal possible from Brexit,
:03:28. > :03:29.and that's what we will be seeking to ensure.
:03:30. > :03:34.A second go at it, let's look at the deal first?
:03:35. > :03:39.We elect Members of Parliament and we've got a general election
:03:40. > :03:42.right now and every person here will have a vote,
:03:43. > :03:45.I hope, in that election, and you will elect people to go
:03:46. > :03:48.and represent you and therefore Parliament now has the mandate,
:03:49. > :03:51.and I think it was right for Theresa May to call an election,
:03:52. > :03:55.to seek a mandate to negotiate, and I don't think she has had to go
:03:56. > :03:57.back to have a second referendum because, actually,
:03:58. > :04:01.and this is important, Stephen, it ties her hands,
:04:02. > :04:05.It ties the hand of the Prime Minister, and I think it gives
:04:06. > :04:11.So I think, at this stage, we don't need to have a second referendum.
:04:12. > :04:16.If I had been able to vote, and only 17, I would have voted Remain.
:04:17. > :04:19.Seeing the results of the referendum, I do understand
:04:20. > :04:23.that there needs to be special status for the six counties.
:04:24. > :04:26.What's your stand on that, the special status?
:04:27. > :04:28.I assume the six counties you are referring to is
:04:29. > :04:38.Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom
:04:39. > :04:42.and we are the only part of the UK that has a land border with a EU
:04:43. > :04:45.member state, so that's right, we are different from other parts
:04:46. > :04:47.of the UK and there will need to be special arrangements.
:04:48. > :04:49.But here's the challenge and a problem for us.
:04:50. > :04:52.Well, special arrangements because we have a land
:04:53. > :04:55.border and therefore, unlike any other part of the UK...
:04:56. > :04:57.We have a majority that would vote Remain.
:04:58. > :05:02.The United Kingdom held a referendum and the United Kingdom voted
:05:03. > :05:05.to leave, and we have to respect that.
:05:06. > :05:07.A lot of people talk about respect...
:05:08. > :05:10.You have to understand that the six counties is a special...
:05:11. > :05:12.And you have to understand that the six counties that
:05:13. > :05:15.you describe and that I call Northern Ireland is part
:05:16. > :05:17.of the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom of Great Britain
:05:18. > :05:19.and Northern Ireland, and in a referendum held
:05:20. > :05:24.in the United Kingdom, the people voted to leave.
:05:25. > :05:27.Now, we can re-fight that battle is we want,
:05:28. > :05:29.but what we really need to do is negotiate the best deal
:05:30. > :05:34.But here's the amazing thing, Sir Jeffrey.
:05:35. > :05:45.They told us that Brexit would be a panacea, there'd be
:05:46. > :05:47.a new era of progress, and the reality is...
:05:48. > :05:55.It's good to see the DUP immediately...
:05:56. > :05:59...is diving back to the past and division.
:06:00. > :06:02.But here's the issue of Brexit and why the DUP know
:06:03. > :06:05.they have sold us a pop, because I can't see any young
:06:06. > :06:07.person, when they look at the bounty of Europe,
:06:08. > :06:09.whether it's my children or our grandchildren,
:06:10. > :06:13.that would deny themselves, to cut themselves off
:06:14. > :06:18.You say you can't see any one person.
:06:19. > :06:19.You're looking at one tonight - Calvin.
:06:20. > :06:29.Tell them why you believe that we should be leaving the EU.
:06:30. > :06:33.Well, Stephen, I believe that Northern Ireland, or the UK, sorry,
:06:34. > :06:36.should be free from the EU because we are democrats
:06:37. > :06:40.and the EU is completely and utterly undemocratic.
:06:41. > :06:44.I appreciate that and understand that, but if the majority of people
:06:45. > :06:47.in what you call the UK vote to leave, but the majority
:06:48. > :06:52.The majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain
:06:53. > :06:55.within the UK so that means that we are part of the UK.
:06:56. > :06:58.The majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain
:06:59. > :07:01.part of the UK and therefore with the UK-wide vote, so we have
:07:02. > :07:06.The founding agreement of the peace process
:07:07. > :07:09.It talks about the principle of consent.
:07:10. > :07:15.What percentage of people want to remain within the United Kingdom?
:07:16. > :07:17.It's significantly higher than those that want to remain
:07:18. > :07:23.So therefore, the majority of people in Northern Ireland want to be part
:07:24. > :07:24.of the United Kingdom, so therefore we have
:07:25. > :07:30.There may be a unity referendum soon and we'll find out
:07:31. > :07:36.what the percentages are but, in the meantime, Calvin,
:07:37. > :07:39.you're almost saying to me, it doesn't matter how many jobs
:07:40. > :07:41.are lost, how many farmers lose jobs, how much money
:07:42. > :07:45.What about the potential benefits from Brexit?
:07:46. > :07:50.Are you saying it doesn't matter what damage is done to the economy,
:07:51. > :07:53.how it stunts our economic growth, how it cuts us off, how
:07:54. > :07:56.Is that what you're saying, because somebody in Walsall
:07:57. > :07:58.or Bristol or Birmingham, and fair play to them,
:07:59. > :08:01.let them enjoy Brexit, are you saying because they have
:08:02. > :08:07.voted for this in England and Wales, because Scotland didn't,
:08:08. > :08:10.that it doesn't matter what damage it does to the economy
:08:11. > :08:13.Because if you are, that's fair enough.
:08:14. > :08:15.Are you not the same man representing the same party that
:08:16. > :08:18.slammed the EU for imposing austerity on the likes of Greece?
:08:19. > :08:24.I am one and the same and I will be critical of the EU and,
:08:25. > :08:27.unlike anyone else at this table, I have addressed 27 ministers
:08:28. > :08:30.for Europe in Brussels about how best to repair this damage that's
:08:31. > :08:35.I think the more that Jeffrey and the Brexiteers go
:08:36. > :08:37.on about the Democratic mandate and how that justifies
:08:38. > :08:41.leaving the European Union, that's betraying the fact that that
:08:42. > :08:47.argument hasn't actually been one in that there isn't an hasn't been
:08:48. > :08:50.made a compelling case for the benefits of leaving
:08:51. > :08:54.I'm still left completely unconvinced as to why
:08:55. > :08:58.Northern Ireland obviously has voted to remain,
:08:59. > :09:02.but I would like Jeffrey to outline exactly what he thinks will benefit
:09:03. > :09:05.Northern Ireland from leaving the European Union because,
:09:06. > :09:09.as far as I see it, that argument hasn't been effectively made.
:09:10. > :09:11.And Jeffrey, you can pick that up in a second.
:09:12. > :09:16.Where did your party stand on this, by the way?
:09:17. > :09:23.We recognised the democratic will of the United Kingdom
:09:24. > :09:30.We said that we recognised this was a UK-wide vote and the majority
:09:31. > :09:33.of the people of the United Kingdom decided they were willing to leave,
:09:34. > :09:36.and we respected that, and our MPs voted for that in Westminster.
:09:37. > :09:38.But let's be clear, the days of Remainers
:09:39. > :09:42.The United Kingdom is leaving the European Union.
:09:43. > :09:45.What we need now are 18 MPs sitting on the benches of Westminster,
:09:46. > :09:49.arguing for the best possible deal for everybody in Northern Ireland,
:09:50. > :09:52.and that is how we will get the best result.
:09:53. > :09:53.Aoife, you live on the border, right?
:09:54. > :09:56.I live right beside the border and that's such
:09:57. > :10:03.Girls in my school will have to cross the border every day,
:10:04. > :10:09.Different things, like cost controls.
:10:10. > :10:12.There is a statistic that 3% of the GDP in
:10:13. > :10:17.That's thousands of jobs, tens of thousands of jobs.
:10:18. > :10:23.That was a statistic on the BBC, that 3% of the GDP
:10:24. > :10:34.Before we ever joined the European Union, we had a common
:10:35. > :10:38.The idea that people living in Newry are going
:10:39. > :10:41.to have their lives changed by Brexit in that they are going
:10:42. > :10:44.to be stopped at the border every day is just a myth,
:10:45. > :10:49.Well, how are you going to control immigration?
:10:50. > :10:52.I'm interested that you suggest that someone who travels from Newry
:10:53. > :10:56.to Dundalk and back has to go through immigration.
:10:57. > :11:04.I'm saying that immigrants coming from Dublin, the richest part
:11:05. > :11:06.of the European Union, will have to come through Newry
:11:07. > :11:09.and then they could be going into the British Isles.
:11:10. > :11:13.There's going to have to be some control, and you just can't...
:11:14. > :11:15.Naomi, do you believe there will have to be a border?
:11:16. > :11:19.There will have to be some kind of control, that's obvious,
:11:20. > :11:22.and the reason I say that is because, if you go to any
:11:23. > :11:25.country that has a border, a land border with an EU state,
:11:26. > :11:29.So until somebody shows me an example where there are none,
:11:30. > :11:31.I'm not going to be convinced about this.
:11:32. > :11:34.Well, no, actually, I was in Switzerland last summer,
:11:35. > :11:37.You didn't bring me back a Toblerone!
:11:38. > :11:42.But, honestly, you have to go through, you have to pay,
:11:43. > :11:45.you have to get a vignette for your car when you go
:11:46. > :11:49.You can only work there for so many days of the year before
:11:50. > :11:53.So it's nonsense to say that it's borderless.
:11:54. > :11:56.You go through checkpoints, and this is important, Stephen.
:11:57. > :12:00.All of the people who are saying that there won't be checkpoints
:12:01. > :12:03.can't give you a single concrete example of that because it's fine
:12:04. > :12:06.to talk about the common travel area, but we are now talking
:12:07. > :12:09.about differentiating our immigration and our customs
:12:10. > :12:16.That was never the case before, and that's the fundamental difference.
:12:17. > :12:19.I don't think it's any secret that our party has always been
:12:20. > :12:21.strongly pro-Europe and, actually, was the first
:12:22. > :12:23.party that articulated an argument for special status,
:12:24. > :12:25.call it what you will, but special relationship.
:12:26. > :12:29.A special relationship for Northern Ireland.
:12:30. > :12:30.But Stephen, can I tell you the argument...
:12:31. > :12:32.No, tell me what special status means.
:12:33. > :12:34.It means actually having recognition of the fact
:12:35. > :12:36.that Northern Ireland, the North, the six counties,
:12:37. > :12:40.actually is the only part of these islands which has a land border
:12:41. > :12:51.We've already seen some concessions in terms of if a united Ireland...
:12:52. > :12:53.Would we stay in the EU under the special status?
:12:54. > :12:58.We would be able to stay in the EU, but they should have
:12:59. > :13:02.special measures in terms of support from Europe.
:13:03. > :13:06.We need the imagination and the innovation
:13:07. > :13:13.Well, you will do it because the 28 states will agree to that,
:13:14. > :13:16.You can't have a special status outside the EU.
:13:17. > :13:18.The point I'd just like to make there, in actual fact,
:13:19. > :13:20.individual parts of certain countries couldn't
:13:21. > :13:24.What we are trying to fight for is that we have MPs
:13:25. > :13:27.and we have a strong executive that can deal with the issue
:13:28. > :13:30.of the border, and the reason I think, by the way,
:13:31. > :13:31.Jeffrey, that we should have an independent referendum
:13:32. > :13:41.Tell me about this ruling by know nothing about.
:13:42. > :13:44.It just showed that it was based around Catalonia, and EU said,
:13:45. > :13:47.and Jeffrey, back me up on this, that individual parts of certain
:13:48. > :13:51.countries couldn't seek sincere special status within the EU,
:13:52. > :13:54.and it came out of the fact that Nicola Sturgeon wanted Scotland
:13:55. > :13:59.That's not a complete picture because the kingdom of Denmark makes
:14:00. > :14:01.up the Faroe Islands, Greenland as well as mainland
:14:02. > :14:04.Denmark, and yet the Faroe Islands and Greenland negotiated a Leave
:14:05. > :14:07.while the rest of the kingdom of Denmark remained in,
:14:08. > :14:09.so there are anomalies within the EU.
:14:10. > :14:12.In fact, one of the important things, Stephen, about the EU,
:14:13. > :14:15.if we're going to be honest, one of the really good things
:14:16. > :14:18.about it, is it is innovative, it is flexible and it is creative
:14:19. > :14:21.when it comes to trying to deal with these sorts of issues.
:14:22. > :14:23.I wonder, by the way, does Brexit make a united
:14:24. > :14:28.I think, yes, definitely, because it shows that the people
:14:29. > :14:31.of England and Wales, their priority isn't
:14:32. > :14:35.Northern Ireland and they are capable of making the decision that
:14:36. > :14:38.will negatively affect Northern Ireland in terms
:14:39. > :14:40.of the border, and that's an issue that was never discussed
:14:41. > :14:42.international debate in the UK, and it hasn't been
:14:43. > :14:51.Let's hear what we're saying in the audience tonight.
:14:52. > :14:59.I find it pretty disgusting that in the first five minutes of
:15:00. > :15:02.this show, Brexit has been reduced to a mere green and orange issue
:15:03. > :15:04.yet again by the politicians of this country.
:15:05. > :15:12.The biggest issue that will face this country in 30, 40 years and
:15:13. > :15:15.it's being reduced again to a mere green and orange,
:15:16. > :15:20.So, is there a politician you'd like to speak to
:15:21. > :15:24.I would just put out a general question of how can we face
:15:25. > :15:27.Brexit if we don't even have an Executive in this country?
:15:28. > :15:35.I think what's most worrying about this is that every
:15:36. > :15:39.other part of the British Isles has a paper
:15:40. > :15:41.on response to Brexit except for Northern Ireland because
:15:42. > :15:43.the Executive was never able to put one together.
:15:44. > :15:46.It was a two-page letter written in August and since that,
:15:47. > :15:51.Did Mike and Colin not put anything together?
:15:52. > :15:54.The Ulster Unionist Party produced a paper that was handed over to
:15:55. > :15:58.Theresa May in November, but the fact of the matter is there is no
:15:59. > :16:01.one speaking, as the member of the audience said, for a collective
:16:02. > :16:02.voice for Northern Ireland and that is concerning.
:16:03. > :16:10.The sad reality is the referendum's over, so we have a
:16:11. > :16:12.Conservative Government who will likely have a large majority after
:16:13. > :16:15.this election so the unfortunate thing is that this is
:16:16. > :16:18.Any remainers, the referendum's over.
:16:19. > :16:21.Fight the election on your point, but it's
:16:22. > :16:30.It seems quite clear to me that the DUP
:16:31. > :16:31.clearly haven't thought this through at all.
:16:32. > :16:33.The DUP clearly have jumped on the bandwagon
:16:34. > :16:39.They clearly have ignored the voice of the people of Northern Ireland
:16:40. > :16:41.or the six counties, whatever you want to call it.
:16:42. > :16:43.And the voice of Northern Ireland says,
:16:44. > :16:51.We don't want to join England and Wales.
:16:52. > :16:54.Well, I'm part of the United Kingdom.
:16:55. > :16:57.The name of my party is Democratic Unionist, so
:16:58. > :17:03.This wasn't a Northern Ireland referendum.
:17:04. > :17:05.It was a UK referendum and, by the way,
:17:06. > :17:08.we didn't jump on the bandwagon, we were the only party from Northern
:17:09. > :17:10.Ireland that campaigned for Brexit not just locally, but nationally.
:17:11. > :17:15.I believe passionately that the UK has a bright future outside of
:17:16. > :17:20.And I believe the EU is in serious trouble.
:17:21. > :17:23.You think the EU's in serious trouble?
:17:24. > :17:28.Clearly, we've taken a dip into the darkness here.
:17:29. > :17:30.We don't know what's going to happen after Brexit.
:17:31. > :17:33.Let's go to the older audience tonight as well.
:17:34. > :17:38.I'd just like to call attention to the place here played
:17:39. > :17:42.by Sinn Fein, SDLP and their ideas in Remain.
:17:43. > :17:46.To me, it's pathetic that they tried to use it as a link to
:17:47. > :17:49.try and link to the Irish Republic and unity.
:17:50. > :17:51.And that's really what they're trying to use this as.
:17:52. > :17:57.Brexit's about much more than a united
:17:58. > :18:02.But the problem is, people campaigned
:18:03. > :18:04.for Brexit and those that support it and campaigned
:18:05. > :18:08.They're not able to tell us what it meant.
:18:09. > :18:13.Are you telling me that people were stupid?
:18:14. > :18:15.As simple as that, it doesn't mean that.
:18:16. > :18:23.The Brexit that was voted for is not the Brexit that we are being
:18:24. > :18:25.delivered and that's just a simple fact.
:18:26. > :18:29.The Brexit that was voted for is not what being delivered.
:18:30. > :18:33.With respect, the negotiations haven't even begun.
:18:34. > :18:41.It is true that we do not yet know what the final
:18:42. > :18:43.outcome will be and there's two things that are really important.
:18:44. > :18:47.Number 1 - we need an Executive in Northern Ireland to give us a
:18:48. > :18:49.collective voice to get the best deal.
:18:50. > :18:52.The longer Sinn Fein prevent an Executive...
:18:53. > :18:53.It's two parties, it's not just one party.
:18:54. > :18:55.The longer we will be denied that voice.
:18:56. > :19:00.In the absence of Sinn Fein agreeing to form an Executive,
:19:01. > :19:04.we will have our seats in Westminster and we will be the voice
:19:05. > :19:06.for Northern Ireland unlike Sinn Fein.
:19:07. > :19:09.It's clear to see that the DUP and every other
:19:10. > :19:11.Brexiteer don't really know what's coming out of this.
:19:12. > :19:15.You don't know if there is if there's positives...
:19:16. > :19:16.No, because the negotiations haven't begun.
:19:17. > :19:17.Then you understand people's worries.
:19:18. > :19:30.Why did you leave the EU, why did you vote to leave the EU?
:19:31. > :19:31.I voted to leave the European Union...
:19:32. > :19:36.I voted to leave the European Union because I believe
:19:37. > :19:40.We are subsidising the EU to the tune of billions
:19:41. > :19:45.Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute.
:19:46. > :19:48.Northern Ireland's being subsidised by the UK, not by the EU.
:19:49. > :19:51.It's clear we're talking about, you know, whether it's been
:19:52. > :19:53.about being European, British, Irish or Northern Irish.
:19:54. > :19:55.What is really clear, identity is really, really
:19:56. > :19:58.important here and it's true for people of any age.
:19:59. > :20:01.I've been finding out from kids in Kilkeel who feel
:20:02. > :20:18.really, really strongly about their roots.
:20:19. > :20:21.Why is your culture are so important to you?
:20:22. > :20:25.Republicans just think it's Loyalism, and they don't
:20:26. > :20:29.think it's all about having fun, but it is about having fun.
:20:30. > :20:31.Going out with your friends and parading
:20:32. > :20:38.I would say I'm more involved now that I'm older
:20:39. > :20:41.and can do, like, the likes of lambeg drumming.
:20:42. > :20:51.And I'm parading out tonight for Kilkeel Silver.
:20:52. > :20:53.So are you excited about the 12th of July?
:20:54. > :20:57.It's exciting because there is a lot of people watching you and you
:20:58. > :21:04.just get that happy feeling that you're making people enjoy it.
:21:05. > :21:06.I'm just excited about getting up and
:21:07. > :21:11.going out and parading, listening to all of the different bands.
:21:12. > :21:13.My sister does the flag carrying in it
:21:14. > :21:16.and I love seeing her doing it and my dad
:21:17. > :21:19.was in it for, like, in the bands for years.
:21:20. > :21:24.Do you think that your tradition is under threat?
:21:25. > :21:27.Yeah, you would fight the British again if you lost it, because you're
:21:28. > :21:30.losing your tradition, you're losing your parades and Ulster Scots
:21:31. > :21:38.When you see all the politicians fighting, what do you think?
:21:39. > :21:48.Like, there could be people shooting each other.
:21:49. > :21:51.You're saying they're a bunch of children?
:21:52. > :21:53.They're arguing like a bunch of children.
:21:54. > :21:56.I'm just glad that we've settled it more humanely
:21:57. > :22:01.in the sense that we won't, erm, shoot people any more.
:22:02. > :22:03.They're fighting at the minute, aren't they?
:22:04. > :22:06.And the government of Northern Ireland has fallen.
:22:07. > :22:11.I feel like if they don't get this sorted out soon, Northern
:22:12. > :22:15.Ireland's going to go back to the Republic of Ireland.
:22:16. > :22:17.Are you worried about a united Ireland?
:22:18. > :22:21.Well, I would feel sad because our tradition
:22:22. > :22:26.of Ulster Scots and English have been here for hundreds and hundreds
:22:27. > :22:35.of years and if we just lose it just like that, instantly.
:22:36. > :22:39.Calvin, do you feel your British identity is under threat?
:22:40. > :22:44.In our current climate in Northern Ireland,
:22:45. > :22:47.I do believe that my British identity is under threat.
:22:48. > :22:51.From Sinn Fein and the Republican movement.
:22:52. > :22:55.For example, I'm from the Orange tradition and
:22:56. > :23:00.parading is something that Sinn Fein have targeted.
:23:01. > :23:04.And, for me, you know, they're undermining.
:23:05. > :23:07.That's an example of where they're trying to
:23:08. > :23:18.Well, what would you like to come and visit me
:23:19. > :23:21.in my constituency tomorrow and discuss this?
:23:22. > :23:24.My constituency is in an area where there is a very
:23:25. > :23:27.contentious parade and it's led to a lot of division in the area and
:23:28. > :23:30.there still are divisions around Orange parading in South Belfast.
:23:31. > :23:33.I have constituents who vote for me, for
:23:34. > :23:34.example, who have visited the
:23:35. > :23:39.Orange Hall on the Armour Road as part of a lengthy engagement of
:23:40. > :23:43.He's talking about more than a march, isn't he?
:23:44. > :23:46.Yeah, but I think the first step is dialogue.
:23:47. > :23:48.Would you be interested in having that dialogue?
:23:49. > :23:52.I'm happy to go along and find out more
:23:53. > :23:55.Well, I can see what you're trying to do.
:23:56. > :24:01.Because you know rightly I'll say that no, I don't want to
:24:02. > :24:06.Because you're is part of a party that's completely and utterly
:24:07. > :24:08.opposed to my right to march down a road.
:24:09. > :24:15.But I'm not, I actually want to celebrate
:24:16. > :24:20.You're completely and utterly trying to undermine my
:24:21. > :24:23.culture and this is something that your party in particular is
:24:24. > :24:29.How about you come with me to an Orange parade?
:24:30. > :24:37.When I was Lord Mayor, I opened City Hall and allowed the
:24:38. > :24:47.As the Lord Mayor, I was the only one who had
:24:48. > :24:50.the ability to allow the orders to come into and use a room in City
:24:51. > :24:55.There are big issues and where there is an Orange
:24:56. > :25:00.There are ways that orange parades are used to try
:25:01. > :25:04.It's important that we move away from that and I
:25:05. > :25:06.invite you to move away from that with me.
:25:07. > :25:12.And your party is fully intent on making it a divisive issue.
:25:13. > :25:14.I think there's about six parades which are
:25:15. > :25:17.still in dispute and every one of those local residents want to speak
:25:18. > :25:24.I just want to ask a question I wanted to ask earlier
:25:25. > :25:27.Does your party want Brexit to work in Northern Ireland?
:25:28. > :25:29.Because it is an interesting question.
:25:30. > :25:30.If Brexit doesn't work, that's the door open
:25:31. > :25:35.Well, it's interesting because that's the question that...
:25:36. > :25:43.Actually, the way to ensure that Brexit
:25:44. > :25:45.doesn't utterly destroyed the economy here
:25:46. > :25:47.and doesn't destroy the peace process is to make sure
:25:48. > :25:49.that the Irish Government has the final
:25:50. > :25:52.say in what the settlement is for Northern Ireland
:25:53. > :25:55.and if they can get what the Spanish have for Gibraltar
:25:56. > :25:57.which is there can be no settlement in relation
:25:58. > :25:59.to Gibraltar until the Spanish...
:26:00. > :26:03.The Spanish and the British Government agree, then you can get
:26:04. > :26:06.For me, Brexit can't work and Jeffrey won't
:26:07. > :26:09.give us a guarantee that no jobs will be lost.
:26:10. > :26:11.They won't give us a guarantee that none of the Polish
:26:12. > :26:14.people or Lithuanian people, maybe some in this audience, won't be
:26:15. > :26:17.And those are the guarantees that we need.
:26:18. > :26:20.I mean, you're talking about the issue of the Irish Government
:26:21. > :26:22.coming in and taking control of this.
:26:23. > :26:24.Do the Irish people want Northern Ireland as part
:26:25. > :26:27.We have a ?9.6 billion deficit with Westminster.
:26:28. > :26:30.They do not want us because they cannot afford
:26:31. > :26:34.When Germany was reunified, the West Germans were in outrage of the
:26:35. > :26:37.fact that they had their taxes shot up all for some idea that Germany
:26:38. > :26:41.It is better for the people of Northern Ireland,
:26:42. > :26:42.economicallly, to remain within the UK.
:26:43. > :26:50.German unification seems to be going pretty well, Thomas.
:26:51. > :26:55.And you can see, by the way, the table's
:26:56. > :26:57.telling us we've very little time left for this debate.
:26:58. > :27:01.We don't know what's going to happen after Brexit.
:27:02. > :27:03.Maybe a united Ireland would suit us better after Brexit.
:27:04. > :27:07.If Brexit doesn't work, the door is open for us.
:27:08. > :27:13.Brexit is a leap into the dark and...
:27:14. > :27:19.It's actually the world's sixth largest economy, thanks to Brexit.
:27:20. > :27:22.It was the fifth largest and it has dropped back from there.
:27:23. > :27:24.Very quickly, we're running out of time.
:27:25. > :27:28.If I said to you there are far more countries outside the EU than there
:27:29. > :27:31.are inside the EU, and all of the other countries in the world,
:27:32. > :27:35.AOIFE: But they're not coming out of something...
:27:36. > :27:38.They weren't in the European Union to
:27:39. > :27:42.We don't know what is going to happen.
:27:43. > :27:47.We are not sure by whatever, we don't know what is happening.
:27:48. > :27:56.We're out of time, we're out of time.
:27:57. > :28:00.There's a new age of politics in Northern Ireland.
:28:01. > :28:04.If you are 21 or under and if you think you deserve a seat at
:28:05. > :28:20.Right, let's look at our next question.
:28:21. > :28:24.Do we need an Irish Language Act in Northern Ireland?
:28:25. > :28:28.Yes, we deserve one and there's no reason
:28:29. > :28:38.What an Irish Language Act going to give you?
:28:39. > :28:44.No, no, it will give legal defences as well,
:28:45. > :28:51.And I'm looking at you, Jeffrey, because,
:28:52. > :28:56.Well, now they love Irish all of a sudden.
:28:57. > :29:01.But I want to ask you, first I want to ask you a question,
:29:02. > :29:03.why do you oppose of and Irish Language Act?
:29:04. > :29:06.Absolutely not scared of the Irish language.
:29:07. > :29:10.I fully respect that there are many people here in
:29:11. > :29:15.Northern Ireland and elsewhere who value the Irish language and I want
:29:16. > :29:20.to see their rights to speak the Irish language encouraged
:29:21. > :29:25.and supported and, of course, we will look at what that
:29:26. > :29:30.But not just on the Irish language, because, of course, there are many
:29:31. > :29:32.other cultural expressions and, Stephen, you heard from the young
:29:33. > :29:37.That's where I grew up, and there's a thriving Ulster Scots
:29:38. > :29:44.But, you know, they're not getting the level
:29:45. > :29:45.of support that the Irish language is getting.
:29:46. > :29:51.I listened carefully to what Jeffrey was saying about supporting
:29:52. > :29:53.an Irish Language Act yet it was Paul Givan,
:29:54. > :29:56.almost pulled the whole house down single-handedly by taking away
:29:57. > :29:59.a small pot of money for Gaeltalk users.
:30:00. > :30:04.He took that away and put it back in and then found hundreds
:30:05. > :30:17.of thousands of pounds for Orange halls.
:30:18. > :30:19.But, Dolores, in the last five years, and let's
:30:20. > :30:21.be clear about this, ?171 million has been put
:30:22. > :30:29.towards the Irish language in Northern Ireland.
:30:30. > :30:31.What would an Irish language act actually deliver
:30:32. > :30:35.First off, it would honour the commitments under
:30:36. > :30:39.the Good Friday Agreement and St Andrew's.
:30:40. > :30:44.That's the start that honour the commitments about equality.
:30:45. > :30:52.Tell me practically what it would guarantee.
:30:53. > :30:54.Irish speakers would have their rights across all public
:30:55. > :30:55.sector organisations to have their cases heard
:30:56. > :30:59.It's actually much more emotional, I believe, than terms...
:31:00. > :31:01.So if they walked into any public establishment,
:31:02. > :31:03.there would have to be someone behind the counter...
:31:04. > :31:07.The Welsh have an act and the Scottish Parliament
:31:08. > :31:10.has an act and I think what we need to do...
:31:11. > :31:14.They are not guaranteed that there would be answered in Irish,
:31:15. > :31:17.Would the Irish language act guarantee?
:31:18. > :31:19.It's about recognising the rights and the equality of Irish speakers.
:31:20. > :31:26.It would guarantee that the Irish language was protected in law.
:31:27. > :31:34.Well, there are debates around whether people want to have native
:31:35. > :31:36.Irish speakers whose first language is Irish, that they can communicate
:31:37. > :31:43.in the language of their choice, that's what it means.
:31:44. > :31:47.I just wanted to raise a point here that, when we have an NHS
:31:48. > :31:49.that's closing A up at Daisy Hill, an education budget
:31:50. > :31:51.that's slipping by 2.5%, I'd love to learn Irish,
:31:52. > :31:54.it's a lovely language, but, when we have an education system
:31:55. > :31:57.that's collapsing and an NHS that's collapsing, can we afford
:31:58. > :32:06.First of all, no one's ever told me what it's going to cost,
:32:07. > :32:08.so you hear figures ranging from ?2 million to ?20 million.
:32:09. > :32:11.First of all, I have complete respect for the Irish language.
:32:12. > :32:14.It is the language shared by both cultures in Northern Ireland.
:32:15. > :32:16.The motto of the Royal Irish Regiment is in Irish.
:32:17. > :32:19.In fact, it was the Presbyterians that actually protected it
:32:20. > :32:23.Do you think Katie-Rose should have an Irish language act
:32:24. > :32:29.People say that they want an Irish language act,
:32:30. > :32:32.but give us the act and we'll tell you what we want and it.
:32:33. > :32:35.The initial drafts that is all for it had High Commissioner
:32:36. > :32:38.with powers of a High Court judge who could hound people out for not
:32:39. > :32:41.respecting language, various other things,
:32:42. > :32:44.and positive discrimination to highlight 100% of the public
:32:45. > :32:47.sector workers who should be speaking Irish.
:32:48. > :32:49.I don't know what's going to be in this act.
:32:50. > :32:57.I want to be able to go into court and speak Irish,
:32:58. > :32:59.I want to live my life through Irish.
:33:00. > :33:08.The Irish language is of equal importance in the North, in Ireland,
:33:09. > :33:18.Instead of firing back figures and numbers and now this,
:33:19. > :33:21.I want to tell you, as a 17-year-old who has grown up in the Irish
:33:22. > :33:24.language, most of my life is through the Irish language.
:33:25. > :33:27.See the kids, the hundreds of kids, going through Irish medium schools?
:33:28. > :33:30.They don't care about how much an Irish language is going to cost.
:33:31. > :33:32.They just realise that they are being discriminated
:33:33. > :33:44.Irish language rights are human rights.
:33:45. > :33:54.There are a couple of reasons why I would oppose an Irish language act.
:33:55. > :33:58.For me, the Irish language has been something that has been politicised
:33:59. > :34:10.by Sinn Fein. And this act would be used to make those with the British
:34:11. > :34:12.background to feel isolated and foreigners. The Irish language
:34:13. > :34:18.brings with it a culture that everyone can be a part of. The
:34:19. > :34:22.second reason why I do not want an Irish language act is it is not
:34:23. > :34:27.practical. In Irish language act would be firstly for Irish speakers
:34:28. > :34:42.because things like signage and documentation. Let me finish.
:34:43. > :34:46.Signage and documentation. Someone who speaks Irish as a second
:34:47. > :34:55.language or read English first there for the Irish language act is 0.24%
:34:56. > :35:08.of the population. Leffler respond to you. It is much more than
:35:09. > :35:11.signage. If you keep reverting back to the green and orange situation,
:35:12. > :35:18.it has such a unifying quality, it brings people from all different
:35:19. > :35:21.backgrounds together. This is from the latest census. The percentage of
:35:22. > :35:39.people whose main language is Irish, 0.24%. That was the figures from the
:35:40. > :35:44.senseless. In terms of the Irish language at, you supported, so there
:35:45. > :35:57.would be in it? We are talking about that problem that people are
:35:58. > :35:59.dismissing an Irish language act without looking at what it might
:36:00. > :36:02.contain. This is not a blank cheque. There are pressures in terms of
:36:03. > :36:09.public services and finances. One of the things we would like to see
:36:10. > :36:12.Festival is protection for the language and so we do not end up
:36:13. > :36:14.with the farcical situation where we are dependent on the Minister in the
:36:15. > :36:22.department. You either had headed paper or ministers seeking out votes
:36:23. > :36:27.to spray paint and replaced with another. Protection so you have a
:36:28. > :36:32.scheme... Spell out. I am trying. There needs to be a consistent
:36:33. > :36:37.approach in every department as to how it deals with the Irish
:36:38. > :36:41.language, the example within the civil service, or departments would
:36:42. > :36:50.have a consistent policy that would be governed by a scheme. I still do
:36:51. > :36:52.not know what you would guarantee. The commissions themselves should
:36:53. > :36:57.not have the rule that you have described. So would every public
:36:58. > :37:03.document need to be in both languages? No, it wouldn't. Not
:37:04. > :37:13.every public document is subject to FOIA. You have the right to opt out
:37:14. > :37:17.and allow the individual to pay for it. At the moment, it is difficult
:37:18. > :37:22.to come to a position. On the Irish language act, as there has not been
:37:23. > :37:27.an act all though published, but I do not have an objection to it
:37:28. > :37:30.because it makes sense that the language of the island should be
:37:31. > :37:41.given some sort of legislative protection.
:37:42. > :37:52.Saying it is a massive executive financial burden is... What about
:37:53. > :38:02.the hundreds of millions the DUP squandered? Responsible public
:38:03. > :38:09.spending, Geoffrey! Those costs have been capped in relation to the RHI.
:38:10. > :38:17.And they will be capped going forward, Stephen. Definitely?
:38:18. > :38:20.Absolutely. The point I'm making is this, you are suggesting at the
:38:21. > :38:30.moment that nothing is being done for the Irish language. Despite the
:38:31. > :38:33.fact that less than 1% of the population of this country have
:38:34. > :38:43.Irish is the best language, we have Irish language schools... One at a
:38:44. > :38:53.time, please. Let him respond to that point. We may have provisions
:38:54. > :38:56.for Irish speakers at the moment but we also have a First Minister who
:38:57. > :39:03.prepares the Irish speakers as crocodiles. There is clearly a lack
:39:04. > :39:09.of respect. With respect, the First Minister did not describe Irish
:39:10. > :39:23.language speakers as crocodiles, she said Sinn Fein. You have got to let
:39:24. > :39:27.me to read this. Katy Rose was a more eloquent spokesperson. I
:39:28. > :39:34.believe in a society which would welcome an Irish language act.
:39:35. > :39:41.Arlene Foster has made a promise, I will never have an Irish language
:39:42. > :39:45.act. She may not, but there will be an Irish language act. We will make
:39:46. > :39:52.sure that this treasure can be shared with everyone. It will work
:39:53. > :39:56.as it does in Scotland and Wales. Not every government department will
:39:57. > :40:03.be translated into Irish but you will have the right to deal with it.
:40:04. > :40:11.One last point, please. You can come back in the second, I promise. That
:40:12. > :40:17.is a promise. Although some people dismiss Irish as a minority
:40:18. > :40:23.language, it is incredibly important to some people, and there is a new
:40:24. > :40:35.young generation of Irish speakers, let's have a look at them.
:40:36. > :40:43.I am opted to find out what is so important about the Irish language.
:40:44. > :40:50.Why do you deserve it? It is people's writes. People say right so
:40:51. > :40:57.the time, writes about what? It is you human rights to speak whatever
:40:58. > :41:00.language you want. It will be featured in the movie and no one
:41:01. > :41:04.will know what it was going on about. Having a government in
:41:05. > :41:15.Northern Ireland, is that not one potent than you Irish language act?
:41:16. > :41:17.Having a government is also important, but they should be
:41:18. > :41:22.treating us as they treat every other person who speaks English.
:41:23. > :41:29.They found the money for the scoundrel, but yet they cannot put
:41:30. > :41:41.money towards an Irish language act. We want equal
:41:42. > :41:45.rights for everyone, but we will start with us because this is our
:41:46. > :41:47.country. You are angry, aren't you? Who isn't? Legislator Eileen Foster?
:41:48. > :41:57.The statement about the crocodiles made us more angry. She has not
:41:58. > :41:59.given us what we wanted in the first place, the Irish language act. When
:42:00. > :42:06.she said crocodiles, what did that mean to you? That she thinks of us
:42:07. > :42:12.as animals. An Irish language act is very important to us. We just want
:42:13. > :42:25.what they had been promising for ages, equality and Irish language
:42:26. > :42:27.rights. Have you heard enough? People should respect us no matter
:42:28. > :42:30.what our age because we still have human rights. We had more meaningful
:42:31. > :42:37.things to say the most adults! Do you reckon? I think we should give
:42:38. > :42:44.them a round of applause. That is for the kids and the other kids. We
:42:45. > :42:47.mean it when we say we will reach out to young people of all ages and
:42:48. > :42:53.try to bring them in to this BBC programme and once again we
:42:54. > :42:55.appreciate everyone in this studio and everyone watching tonight. Let's
:42:56. > :43:02.empower young people to have a voice. John, when you hear that
:43:03. > :43:09.authentic voice, the 12, 13, are telling them there anything that is
:43:10. > :43:19.called an Irish language act is unacceptable to your party? No, I'm
:43:20. > :43:22.saying it would be nice to know what would be in the act and what we have
:43:23. > :43:25.seen up until now is guesswork. Nothing has been put forward. The
:43:26. > :43:35.idea there would be a High Commissioner that would conduct
:43:36. > :43:38.which an stop... The Commissioner Rob... We need to take decisions.
:43:39. > :43:44.And the problem is we are rubbish at taking decisions. There are all
:43:45. > :43:51.sorts of options. The Commissioner is there to give advice and guidance
:43:52. > :43:55.to help them engage in people who want to speak and Irish, but what
:43:56. > :44:03.Calvert said is important. Here he sees this as an attack on culture,
:44:04. > :44:08.but shouldn't be. In Belfast, where they originally opened that orange
:44:09. > :44:13.for, many members spoken Irish. It was part of parcel of a shared
:44:14. > :44:26.culture. We should embrace and celebrate it. Beside the place where
:44:27. > :44:38.I live, there is an Orange Hall. The Irish language was there before. We
:44:39. > :44:41.are allowing them to embrace it. I do not see what the problem is. The
:44:42. > :44:42.foundations of the Irish language was promised in the Good Friday
:44:43. > :44:45.Agreement but we do not have that. The Department of Finance
:44:46. > :44:52.figures, 3.5 million. If Jonathan speaks
:44:53. > :44:55.to his negotiators... No, no, across all Government,
:44:56. > :44:57.not one department. Well, the Department
:44:58. > :45:00.of Finance figures are In Scotland, it cost 5 million
:45:01. > :45:06.and 3 million of that goes That includes Government departments
:45:07. > :45:12.and we believe that local Government In Scotland, much of
:45:13. > :45:22.the money goes towards Are you telling that young
:45:23. > :45:25.man his figures are wrong? Well, you don't
:45:26. > :45:26.understand the figures. Do you want to
:45:27. > :45:29.patronise him any more? Do you want to
:45:30. > :45:34.respond to that yourself? There is a politician
:45:35. > :45:36.sitting there you don't understand. You're saying it's only
:45:37. > :45:39.going to cost 2.5 million? I mean, the Gael League
:45:40. > :45:41.came out and said that over the next five years, it
:45:42. > :45:45.was going to cost 19 million and I, personally, think that
:45:46. > :45:46.that underestimating it. Well, you should join
:45:47. > :45:52.the talks because the UUP and DUP have been at the talks and the
:45:53. > :45:55.figures at the talks and the most cogent figure is the nationwide
:45:56. > :45:58.organisation which has presented its They say it will cost
:45:59. > :46:01.2.5 million a year. So are you making
:46:02. > :46:03.a commitment on behalf of Sinn Fein tonight that
:46:04. > :46:05.you don't want any funding Because what I actually
:46:06. > :46:11.said was that the Department of Finance
:46:12. > :46:13.estimate was 3.5 million. So why would you want more than that
:46:14. > :46:18.if you're standing by the figure and telling
:46:19. > :46:19.him he's wrong? Well, he's wrong in his
:46:20. > :46:21.estimate of Scotland. What I am saying is
:46:22. > :46:23.that the estimate that I think is an accurate estimate is no
:46:24. > :46:26.more than 3.5 million All right, listen, loads of people
:46:27. > :46:30.in the audience tonight... No, let's go into the younger
:46:31. > :46:33.audience tonight again. And we'll go to
:46:34. > :46:35.the young lady in the We live in a culture
:46:36. > :46:42.of fear and I'm putting it to all of you that there is no
:46:43. > :46:45.big scary monster against your Irish language in the same way
:46:46. > :46:48.there is no big scary monster against your British
:46:49. > :46:49.identity. So, why do you need to pack money
:46:50. > :46:52.into your Irish Language Act or pack money into your parades
:46:53. > :46:55.instead of investing it in more an Irish Language Act,
:46:56. > :47:04.I've made that very clear. You can't compare an Irish Language
:47:05. > :47:07.Act to the parades, I'm sorry. Stay with this, stay
:47:08. > :47:13.with the young lady here. Where is the parading organisations
:47:14. > :47:15.looking for funding? Well, they've had
:47:16. > :47:16.money all those years. I'm not putting the Irish
:47:17. > :47:21.language and parades on the same level, I'm just saying
:47:22. > :47:24.they're both about identity and they both seem to be all our people and
:47:25. > :47:27.all our Government care about when they should care about far
:47:28. > :47:29.more important things. We were promised
:47:30. > :47:36.an Irish Language Act. I want to know where
:47:37. > :47:38.the money has went for that. I want to know why our
:47:39. > :47:41.culture is being used as a weapon by all parties,
:47:42. > :47:43.not just green and orange. It's being used as a weapon
:47:44. > :47:46.and it's being undermined. Dolores Kelly, is there not better
:47:47. > :47:49.things in Northern Ireland in terms of priority to spend
:47:50. > :47:51.whatever money we've got? If we think about the health
:47:52. > :47:54.service, if we think about the education of our kids
:47:55. > :47:57.and roads, do we really And you're talking about
:47:58. > :48:01.the Irish Language Act That doesn't get you
:48:02. > :48:07.out of the question. I'm not getting out
:48:08. > :48:11.of the question, Stephen. I actually do believe it's important
:48:12. > :48:13.for Northern Ireland to move forward, to actually recognise
:48:14. > :48:16.our shared history and future. Do you agree with the
:48:17. > :48:23.3.5 million figure? You see, Stephen, we cannot set
:48:24. > :48:27.a figure on it because the Irish Language Act is part
:48:28. > :48:31.of the talks and part of the talks will actually hopefully come
:48:32. > :48:33.to an agreement about what
:48:34. > :48:34.an Irish Language Act is. The talks have been
:48:35. > :48:36.going on for ages. To just come back on what you said
:48:37. > :48:46.about the division. See here especially,
:48:47. > :48:48.as you all are aware, Irish language speakers
:48:49. > :48:55.are entitled to health care and we do use schools and we do
:48:56. > :48:57.use education, like. So the Irish language is away
:48:58. > :49:03.way of uniting people. Once we get past that,
:49:04. > :49:06.then we can start to move forward. I know Jeffrey earlier
:49:07. > :49:14.was saying that due to The reason we have no Government is
:49:15. > :49:19.because of the absence of respect. The arguments that
:49:20. > :49:24.we're getting here about the money is a false argument
:49:25. > :49:27.because we don't have the content agreed so you can't budget
:49:28. > :49:30.until you have the content agreed. And the second thing
:49:31. > :49:32.is, in City Hall last week, there was an agreement made
:49:33. > :49:35.that there would be an Irish It's going to cost
:49:36. > :49:38.a maximum of ?18,000. The other half was going to be paid
:49:39. > :49:41.by Foras na Gaeilge. There was going to be money
:49:42. > :49:43.invested in the Ulster Scots language and there was going to be
:49:44. > :49:46.money given to newcomer languages... Unionists voted
:49:47. > :49:52.against it, all of them. It was ?18,000 maximum spend
:49:53. > :49:54.in a council with a huge budget. They voted against it
:49:55. > :49:59.not because of money, but because they will not allow
:50:00. > :50:01.this to move forward. We're great at putting forward
:50:02. > :50:07.the problems, The Irish Language Act
:50:08. > :50:11.is a solution, Calvin! Why not try to benefit
:50:12. > :50:19.as many people in society? Why not include things
:50:20. > :50:22.like Ulster Scots, Irish and parading so that we open it up
:50:23. > :50:26.to as many people as possible? We can deal with those
:50:27. > :50:29.things, Calvin. You talk about respect
:50:30. > :50:31.and equality... Why do they have a Gaelic
:50:32. > :50:33.language act in Scotland? Let's see where you want to see
:50:34. > :50:36.Ulster Scots and parading. We're out of time.
:50:37. > :50:49.We're out of time. If you are 21 or under
:50:50. > :50:55.and want to have the biggest voice in
:50:56. > :50:59.the country, apply now. Right, let's have a look
:51:00. > :51:08.at our last question tonight. Does Northern Ireland need
:51:09. > :51:16.to stop living in the past? Listen, the amount of money that
:51:17. > :51:20.goes into investigations We can't move forward
:51:21. > :51:25.with our future until we look at the past
:51:26. > :51:27.and I think it's important. What you see this argument,
:51:28. > :51:29.particularly coming from a more traditional side,
:51:30. > :51:32.is that they say there is some kind When there are laws such
:51:33. > :51:35.as their were during Bloody Sunday, we have
:51:36. > :51:37.to investigate them. The Saville Inquiry
:51:38. > :51:39.was a justified spending of money to prove that there
:51:40. > :51:42.was misconduct on the part of the British Army and collusion
:51:43. > :51:44.within the British Government and it's right
:51:45. > :51:46.that we look back at the past because unless we fix and look
:51:47. > :51:49.at where the blame lies in the past, Thomas, I absolutely
:51:50. > :51:54.agree with you that you cannot dispense
:51:55. > :51:57.with justice and we have to look at this
:51:58. > :52:00.over a time period and try and then, after we've done that,
:52:01. > :52:03.to move Northern Ireland forward. But what I would say
:52:04. > :52:06.to you is this - there are over 3000 unsolved killings
:52:07. > :52:09.in Northern Ireland. At the moment, it is undeniable
:52:10. > :52:13.that the focus is on a small number of those killings,
:52:14. > :52:17.mainly by the state. Despite the fact that
:52:18. > :52:19.the state were responsible for less than 10% of all deaths
:52:20. > :52:23.during the Troubles. The problem I have,
:52:24. > :52:26.Thomas, is that I have constituents, The problem I have,
:52:27. > :52:27.people who lost loved ones, who have been waiting
:52:28. > :52:29.for decades. Decades for justice, for someone
:52:30. > :52:35.to investigate the murder of their loved one and there
:52:36. > :52:40.But why did the DUP block 56 cases going to
:52:41. > :52:42.be investigated that would have got justice...
:52:43. > :52:48.You did last year. You did last year.
:52:49. > :52:53.The DUP, as I understand it, at the Executive blocked the
:52:54. > :52:57.So how is that going to get justice for the people?
:52:58. > :53:02.And those people have been waiting 45 years and more for
:53:03. > :53:06.Because, Aoife, I do not believe there should be a
:53:07. > :53:09.And therefore, I'm not prepared to see a
:53:10. > :53:14.small number of cases given priority and priority funding whilst
:53:15. > :53:19.thousands of families are waiting for the opportunity.
:53:20. > :53:21.But we're going to have to start somewhere to move
:53:22. > :53:27.We're to start somewhere to move on together in a society.
:53:28. > :53:29.We can't have this orange and green all the time.
:53:30. > :53:32.Well, how about starting with the IRA and what they did,
:53:33. > :53:35.Well, what about the British Government collusion as well?
:53:36. > :53:37.They murdered more people than anybody else.
:53:38. > :53:41.We have to accept both sides did have their runs.
:53:42. > :53:49.There is an old saying, an old proverb, that who
:53:50. > :53:51.ever forget the past is blind in one eye.
:53:52. > :53:54.Whoever focuses on it totally is blind in both and I think that's
:53:55. > :53:56.totally prevalent when it comes to Northern Ireland.
:53:57. > :53:59.The legacy issues are for everyone to see.
:54:00. > :54:02.We have the worst mental health in the entirety
:54:03. > :54:04.of the British Isles because of the issues that we have.
:54:05. > :54:06.We have victims, tens of thousands of
:54:07. > :54:08.victims, from the Troubles and we can't forget about that.
:54:09. > :54:12.But, John, are we giving victims false hope because
:54:13. > :54:13.there's very little chance of prosecutions
:54:14. > :54:14.because the evidence is gone.
:54:15. > :54:18.We see time and time again that evidence can come to light.
:54:19. > :54:20.If victims want hope, there is an opportunity.
:54:21. > :54:26.Why close all the I do think what is frustrating, as Jeffrey
:54:27. > :54:29.highlighted, less than 10% of all the killings in the Troubles were
:54:30. > :54:32.committed by state forces, yet they account for 70% of all of the
:54:33. > :54:35.It feels at times but there is a victim...
:54:36. > :54:37.Do you really think, Dolores, that everybody's
:54:38. > :54:43.I mean, I see too many vested interests around the table
:54:44. > :54:47.from former paramilitaries and from the British Government in terms of
:54:48. > :54:52.I don't think the process is doomed, but I do believe
:54:53. > :54:57.that commitments were made to victims and survivors back in 1998,
:54:58. > :55:00.especially when prisoners were released and, in fact,
:55:01. > :55:03.that anybody who would be subsequently prosecuted
:55:04. > :55:05.would only serve a maximum of two years.
:55:06. > :55:08.I do think many victims, and I speak to many of the individuals
:55:09. > :55:12.and organisations recognise that they're not likely to get justice,
:55:13. > :55:15.And there is a wailing cry for the truth
:55:16. > :55:18.But you don't think they'll get the truth.
:55:19. > :55:20.Well, I don't think they'll get the whole
:55:21. > :55:23.I do wonder whether they'll get the name
:55:24. > :55:27.of the person who pulled the trigger or the name of the people...
:55:28. > :55:28.You know, I think they'll get some truth
:55:29. > :55:30.around who was responsible and the organisation...
:55:31. > :55:33.What's the point of getting the information if its not
:55:34. > :55:35.It is important, because the truth...
:55:36. > :55:37.You just said you don't think we'll get the truth.
:55:38. > :55:39.Well, you asked me a straightforward question,
:55:40. > :55:43.I'm asking you a straightforward follow-up question!
:55:44. > :55:45.I'm telling you, there's a lot of vested interests.
:55:46. > :55:47.We've already seen the defence committee at Westminster
:55:48. > :55:54.In response to what Jeffrey was saying, I think it is of vital
:55:55. > :55:57.importance that we get to the truth of, you know,
:55:58. > :55:59.all of the killings, but especially those committed by
:56:00. > :56:02.the state because I think there's a principle
:56:03. > :56:04.at stake for the health of our democracy
:56:05. > :56:11.that we need to know exactly what the state did in terms
:56:12. > :56:14.of its murders, be they in incidents like Bloody Sunday or or
:56:15. > :56:16.in terms of their collaboration with terrorist organisations.
:56:17. > :56:17.Naomi, our state killings more important to be
:56:18. > :56:21.I think that they have to be investigated on
:56:22. > :56:23.exactly the same basis and help to the same
:56:24. > :56:26.I think we expect more from the state than
:56:27. > :56:29.we expect from paramilitaries who, obviously, set out to break the law
:56:30. > :56:33.We expect those who are there to enforce the law to hold themselves
:56:34. > :56:36.The important thing about this, Stephen, is there
:56:37. > :56:40.is a difference between dealing with the past and is living in the past
:56:41. > :56:43.and what we have to decide as a society is when we are going
:56:44. > :56:46.to deal with the past in a way that allows us
:56:47. > :56:48.to live in the present and look to the future.
:56:49. > :56:53.If we don't do it now, we are offering victims false hope.
:56:54. > :56:55.OK, let me go to our older audience this evening.
:56:56. > :57:01.Let's get the lights up on the older audience here and we'll see...
:57:02. > :57:09.My name is Sean, my father was murdered along with ten other
:57:10. > :57:16.Jeffrey has based a campaign for ex-feds to be given an
:57:17. > :57:20.immunity, an amnesty for breaking the law.
:57:21. > :57:23.As Jeffrey know, he was an ex-serviceman himself,
:57:24. > :57:26.who looked down the barrel of a gun, you make a decision yourself.
:57:27. > :57:31.There is no way of saying that it was a moment of madness...
:57:32. > :57:37.My question is why would you want somebody who wears a uniform
:57:38. > :57:42.to get amnesty but you still call for other people who were
:57:43. > :57:46.involved in the Troubles to be jailed?
:57:47. > :57:50.Well, we're not calling for an amnesty.
:57:51. > :57:54.What we have said is that in those cases
:57:55. > :57:57.where investigations have taken place previously and where people
:57:58. > :58:01.have been told they have no charge to answer
:58:02. > :58:04.to that there should be a statute of limitations
:58:05. > :58:05.and this is something that is prevalent
:58:06. > :58:10.Would you set a time limit after which it
:58:11. > :58:20.I'd just like to say, they're all going on about going for the
:58:21. > :58:24.At the end of the day, in this country, the IRA
:58:25. > :58:33.They are actually immune from prosecution.
:58:34. > :58:37.See the HET, the majority of it is Loyalist that
:58:38. > :58:47.There you go again, bringing back the green and orange.
:58:48. > :58:48.Regardless of who you think started the war,
:58:49. > :58:51.justice must be served for all cases.
:58:52. > :58:54.Hold on a minute, hold on a minute, there is someone at this top
:58:55. > :58:58.Give her the courtesy of listening to her.
:58:59. > :59:01.With respect, I know I'm young and I didn't live through the
:59:02. > :59:03.Troubles so I'll give back to the older people,
:59:04. > :59:07.But regardless of who started the war or whatever, in
:59:08. > :59:13.OTRs. In any case...
:59:14. > :59:25.Why are the OTRs not being brought to justice?
:59:26. > :59:30.I just think that we need to accept as society
:59:31. > :59:33.that there was a fragile past, but we are going to have to
:59:34. > :59:36.move on together at some point because we're going to be stuck in
:59:37. > :59:38.this position for God knows how many years now
:59:39. > :59:40.and we're going to have to work together.
:59:41. > :59:43.Just don't go for one part of society.
:59:44. > :59:47.No, I emphasised that both parts of society need to move
:59:48. > :59:52.I know the question was relating to legacy, but there
:59:53. > :59:54.are people here tonight is living in the past.
:59:55. > :00:02.And I want to say, with the maximum of respect, with the maximum of
:00:03. > :00:07.respect, that living in the past isn't going to cut it any more.
:00:08. > :00:10.Whether it's discrimination against people at this table because they
:00:11. > :00:12.speak Irish or discrimination against gays who want to get
:00:13. > :00:13.married, discrimination against ethnic minorities,
:00:14. > :00:17.or it's trying... CHEERING
:00:18. > :00:20.Or it's trying to turn back the clock.
:00:21. > :00:22.Because I lived through that horror as well.
:00:23. > :00:25.I lived through it and I saw people dead in my street.
:00:26. > :00:38.I have to say, I mean, I've said it before,
:00:39. > :00:43.Victims deserve justice if it's available.
:00:44. > :00:46.There needs to be some form of truth to come out.
:00:47. > :00:49.But it seems too often that the focus is on state forces.
:00:50. > :00:52.I am all for, if crimes were committed, then
:00:53. > :00:55.they should be looked into, but the fact that the focus
:00:56. > :01:01.Young man on the side of the table wants to speak.
:01:02. > :01:05.Well, Stephen, I live in a community that has seen
:01:06. > :01:09.many people's lives absolutely destroyed by terrorism.
:01:10. > :01:11.And I interact with people on a regular basis
:01:12. > :01:15.whose families have been torn apart.
:01:16. > :01:19.So, for me, I think that we are past persecution.
:01:20. > :01:21.I think the Good Friday agreement has completely
:01:22. > :01:26.Imagine being the family member of a victim just
:01:27. > :01:28.thinking they're not going to get justice.
:01:29. > :01:31.Yeah, and I think it is horrendous and terrible, but I think
:01:32. > :01:34.for us to start on the process of moving forward and bringing a
:01:35. > :01:36.conclusion to the past, we need an apology.
:01:37. > :01:43.From people that engaged in criminality and terrorism
:01:44. > :01:51.You know, you're talking about respect for
:01:52. > :01:52.ethnic minorities and respect for people
:01:53. > :01:56.from the gay community and whatnot.
:01:57. > :02:04.What about the respect for the victims of people...
:02:05. > :02:08.Darkley Gospel Hall, where people worshipped,
:02:09. > :02:11.met together to worship God, and were slaughtered because of it.
:02:12. > :02:15.So, are you willing to show respect to those people?
:02:16. > :02:20.You're talking to me, so let me answer.
:02:21. > :02:25.We need respect for all those victims who died.
:02:26. > :02:30.When we show respect, Calvin, when we show
:02:31. > :02:34.respect, John's mother was shot by a British soldier.
:02:35. > :02:37.So we have to show respect to him as well.
:02:38. > :02:41.And our duty to all those that died is to create a piece which is
:02:42. > :02:45.And let's see Sinn Fein take the lead on that
:02:46. > :02:48.by apologising for what the IRA did and the campaign of 30 years of
:02:49. > :02:50.ethnic cleansing and terrorising one community in Northern Ireland.
:02:51. > :02:58.Stephen, the difficulty is that we are in danger of using
:02:59. > :03:02.the past and other people's hurt as weapons in an argument
:03:03. > :03:06.And I think that's a very dangerous thing to do.
:03:07. > :03:08.I have sat in rooms with people who have
:03:09. > :03:12.lost family members and their seeking out of the truth and
:03:13. > :03:16.everything else has replaced, as a campaign, the last
:03:17. > :03:20.They are still grieving for that loss today and we cannot be
:03:21. > :03:22.dismissive of that is, but we also shouldn't
:03:23. > :03:25.use their pain to try and
:03:26. > :03:26.inflict political wounds on each other.
:03:27. > :03:29.OK, so, John Stewart, what is the solution?
:03:30. > :03:31.Well, first of all, one of the most frustrating things
:03:32. > :03:35.that I find is for the victims over 20 or 30 years even waiting
:03:36. > :03:38.I find it extremely frustrating that we cannot
:03:39. > :03:39.yet agree on the definition of victim.
:03:40. > :03:42.It is very clear to me, Stephen, and to everyone else that a
:03:43. > :03:45.victim is someone who has suffered as a result
:03:46. > :03:48.And if they were an innocent victim, they should be
:03:49. > :03:57.I believe if you walked out with the intention of causing
:03:58. > :03:59.devastation and murder and as a result...
:04:00. > :04:01.It was a complex situation, was it not?
:04:02. > :04:07.The people who suffered, the people who
:04:08. > :04:08.are living with debilitating injuries.
:04:09. > :04:12.One of the most compelling arguments came from Alan McBride,
:04:13. > :04:15.whose wife died in the Shank Hill bombing.
:04:16. > :04:18.And he said, the people who planted that bomb for him were not
:04:19. > :04:24.But he said their family hurt like his family.
:04:25. > :04:28.And we need to bear in mind that the relatives
:04:29. > :04:30.are not responsible for the actions of those who died.
:04:31. > :04:34.Aoife, do you think that those families of paramilitaries also
:04:35. > :04:46.I think families on both sides, we're going to have to accept the
:04:47. > :04:49.past. It happened. But we have to move on at some point together and
:04:50. > :04:53.yes, the families need justice but it is not just the paramilitaries'
:04:54. > :04:57.families, is the families that were hurt by things like Bloody Sunday.
:04:58. > :05:01.We are going to have to accept and be able to understand that there
:05:02. > :05:06.were grievances, but we are going to have to move on. How galling would
:05:07. > :05:12.it be for some people who tried to abide by the war and they now in
:05:13. > :05:16.2017 C paramilitaries and their families potentially getting support
:05:17. > :05:21.from the state's how galling would that be for law-abiding citizens? I
:05:22. > :05:28.think that all cases, paramilitary are not, should be looked into.
:05:29. > :05:32.Should be given focus. Another thing, a la people are saying, there
:05:33. > :05:37.was a word here, and people have different viewpoints at the table.
:05:38. > :05:44.You can't just put it down to one. I think we're seeing certain people
:05:45. > :05:51.undergo a campaign of a rewriting programme in Northern Ireland where
:05:52. > :05:56.we equate terrorism to security forces. Now, for me, there is a key
:05:57. > :06:02.difference. Those... Can I finish despite? Those that were engaged in
:06:03. > :06:05.paramilitaries, they were intent on destroying the fabric of Northern
:06:06. > :06:11.Ireland whereas the security forces stepped between, stepped on place
:06:12. > :06:19.between those in Northern Ireland, civilians in Northern Ireland to
:06:20. > :06:24.protect our and societies. Katie-Rose, Katie-Rose... No,
:06:25. > :06:33.Katie-Rose go. People will good against what you're saying. It's not
:06:34. > :06:37.about views,... But you think that's just should be served in those
:06:38. > :06:44.cases? It's not an orange and green matter. There were specific cases,
:06:45. > :06:49.OK, I'm not saying that there wasn't wrongdoing by maybe specific members
:06:50. > :06:53.of the Armed Forces... Goes by very quickly, Thomas. When David Cameron
:06:54. > :06:58.stepped forward as a result of the inquiry and apologise for the
:06:59. > :07:00.actions of the British Army, that was a huge moment for Northern
:07:01. > :07:05.Ireland and brought our community together and that was a crucial
:07:06. > :07:09.thing. Investigations both sides bring our community together.
:07:10. > :07:12.Dolores. I think we need to deal with the past in order to build
:07:13. > :07:17.reconciliation and needs to be honesty around it and there are
:07:18. > :07:20.people actively engaged in rewriting the past, but there are many
:07:21. > :07:25.families still waiting on truth and justice and I am sorry, but that it
:07:26. > :07:31.forces have two be held to a higher standard. Very quickly, John. I get
:07:32. > :07:34.the feeling that for some people, it would be easier if people just
:07:35. > :07:37.disappeared over the years and this would just drag on until there was
:07:38. > :07:43.no one left to remember the past and that is a sad state and alluring.
:07:44. > :07:48.Geoffrey. We need to deal with these issues, but I agree with Aoife. We
:07:49. > :07:52.need to reach a point where we think about the future and the future is
:07:53. > :07:56.you guys and I think I speak for all of us on the side of the table, we
:07:57. > :08:02.have been highly impressed by your contributions night. It warms my
:08:03. > :08:04.heart, Stephen, that we have young people, articulate, knowledgeable,
:08:05. > :08:11.capable and will be the next generation of leaders in this
:08:12. > :08:14.country. We can take this country so far, our generation but it is your
:08:15. > :08:17.future. On our promise is that we are going to try and reach out to
:08:18. > :08:20.you wherever you are in Northern Ireland. If you want to be at the
:08:21. > :08:24.top table, contact us. Thank you very much to everyone in the studio
:08:25. > :08:31.'s night, the politicians and youth here at The Top Table. Well, there
:08:32. > :08:36.will be plenty more discussion in the weeks ahead of next month's
:08:37. > :08:44.General election. You can find details of the candidates running on
:08:45. > :08:46.BBC website. We are out of time, but what has happened here tonight
:08:47. > :08:52.really shows there is real passion for politician amongst all ages.
:08:53. > :09:13.That is rejoining us, good night. -- thank you for joining us.
:09:14. > :09:16.We're really in it up to here this week.