0:00:01 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections.
0:00:03 > 0:00:05Specially chosen programmes from the BBC Archive.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39GERMAINE GREER: Paule Vezelay was born in Bristol in 1892.
0:00:39 > 0:00:4275 years ago, she decided that she'd become a serious painter
0:00:42 > 0:00:47and she's worked virtually every day ever since and still does,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50despite increasing frailty, deafness and arthritis.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55Some French artist historians have recognised her contribution
0:00:55 > 0:00:57to the development of modern art,
0:00:57 > 0:01:01but in her native land, Paule Vezelay is still relatively unknown.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05She's had only four exhibitions in England since the war.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09In 1983, her work was shown in a retrospective at the Tate
0:01:09 > 0:01:11that showed how Paule Vezelay gradually abandoned
0:01:11 > 0:01:14representational work in the late 1920s
0:01:14 > 0:01:18and committed herself totally and irrevocably to the abstract movement.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20Benedict Nicolson,
0:01:20 > 0:01:24who's usually thought of as the first British abstract painter,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27had barely begun to experiment with abstraction at the time.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Paule Vezelay spends her time on developing her work,
0:01:32 > 0:01:36rather than promoting herself or competing for public attention.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Her intense fastidiousness has kept her out of the marketplace
0:01:39 > 0:01:41and the public eye altogether.
0:01:41 > 0:01:42Her work is her life
0:01:42 > 0:01:46and she keeps it about her as the living oyster keeps its pearl.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50The arbiters of contemporary British taste knew nothing about her.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Some of the many words they used to praise Henry Moore
0:01:53 > 0:01:55and Barbara Hepworth could have been spent on her.
0:01:55 > 0:02:00Her chosen isolation makes it difficult to talk of influence,
0:02:00 > 0:02:04but Paule Vezelay was the most modern, the least provincial,
0:02:04 > 0:02:06British artist of her time.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08Paule Vezelay lives in London.
0:02:08 > 0:02:09She has never married.
0:02:09 > 0:02:14She changed her name in homage to the Romanesque church of Vezelay
0:02:14 > 0:02:17and in order to identify herself with the Ecole de Paris.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20She was born Marjorie Watson-Williams.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24When you were exhibiting in England,
0:02:24 > 0:02:27you usually exhibited as M Watson-Williams, didn't you?
0:02:27 > 0:02:31- Yes. - Did you do this on purpose?
0:02:31 > 0:02:34I... It was my family name.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37GERMAINE: But you only used the initial mostly and when you wrote,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40you signed M Watson-Williams.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43And sometimes in the pieces that you wrote,
0:02:43 > 0:02:45you refer to yourself as if you were a man.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47- I don't think so. - You used...
0:02:47 > 0:02:49I've never pretended to be a man.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53- Never. - But...
0:02:53 > 0:02:56It certainly would have been easier for me as an artist
0:02:56 > 0:03:01if I had been a man. It would have been much easier.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03You were exhibiting as M Watson-Williams
0:03:03 > 0:03:06- and then you changed your name... - Yes, I did.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09- ..to Paule Vezelay. - Yes.
0:03:09 > 0:03:15And if somebody hears that spoken, it sounds like a masculine name.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17And you generally signed P Vezelay,
0:03:17 > 0:03:19- didn't you? - Yes.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Was this because you didn't want the question of your sex
0:03:22 > 0:03:25- to come into it at all? - I don't see why it should,
0:03:25 > 0:03:29but I didn't do it deliberately to avoid the question of sex.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34I put Paul with an E on the end,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38which was a hint that it was feminine - Paule -
0:03:38 > 0:03:43but all that's not important, to my mind.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46What is important is the work.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50Is it original, is it well done, is it good?
0:03:52 > 0:03:53That's what matters.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56GERMAINE: Marjorie Watson-Williams went to a private school.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00She distinguished herself there. She played hockey and was good at art.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04Even then, she knew exactly what she wanted to do.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06PAULE: I always wanted to draw
0:04:06 > 0:04:08and, later on, I wanted to paint, of course.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12GERMAINE: And then you went to the Slade
0:04:12 > 0:04:15- and left almost immediately. - Yes.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20I'd already studied in art schools for two solid years
0:04:20 > 0:04:25and I didn't want to be treated as a beginner at the Slade
0:04:25 > 0:04:29and they were very old-fashioned, I thought.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33They expected you to measure up how many times a man's head
0:04:33 > 0:04:36went into his body and all this nonsense
0:04:36 > 0:04:41and I was bored to death, so I asked my father if I could leave
0:04:41 > 0:04:44and go to study under George Belcher
0:04:44 > 0:04:49who was then quite an unknown young artist.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53He hadn't even got onto the staff of Punch,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56but I saw his drawings reproduced
0:04:56 > 0:05:01and they were sensitive and, to my mind, excellent,
0:05:01 > 0:05:04and I wanted to be his student.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08GERMAINE: But already, at this time, when you were still so young,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12you were very independent, making an independent judgment.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14PAULE: I wasn't all that young.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18- I was sort of about 17 or 18. - That strikes me as very young.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23It does now I'm old, but it didn't then.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25GERMAINE: Belcher encouraged her to draw from the life
0:05:25 > 0:05:29that was going on around her, rather than from studio models,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32but even then, hers was not simply an interest
0:05:32 > 0:05:34in recording events of everyday life.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38Her real concern was with the rhythm of line and mass.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40She produced distinctive work in which the influence
0:05:40 > 0:05:43of Aubrey Beardsley is rather apparent.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46Then the Great War closed the art schools
0:05:46 > 0:05:49as her fellow men students went to war.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53PAULE: I belong to the generation, all the young men I'd ever known
0:05:53 > 0:05:57or danced with, they were all killed in the First World War.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03It was a generation of young men, who were wiped right out of my life.
0:06:03 > 0:06:08All the students I'd met at the art school, they all joined up.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11GERMAINE: Do you think that if they...
0:06:11 > 0:06:13that hadn't happened, you would've had a conflict
0:06:13 > 0:06:16- at some point? - Oh, I expect I should!
0:06:16 > 0:06:20Are you glad you escaped that conflict?
0:06:20 > 0:06:22Oh, I'm not glad about anything.
0:06:22 > 0:06:28I think it's very nice, if you love a man, to marry and have babies,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32very nice for a woman - most women want babies.
0:06:32 > 0:06:38There was a time when I would love to have had a baby to cuddle.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41I had opportunities to marry,
0:06:41 > 0:06:46but it was what my nurse used to call "Mr Right Man".
0:06:47 > 0:06:52I wasn't in love with the several people who wanted to marry me
0:06:52 > 0:06:56and I didn't want to marry without that element.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00GERMAINE: In 1918, when the war was ending,
0:07:00 > 0:07:02she held several exhibitions in London.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08- Did you get encouragement? - One or two people encouraged me.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14- But, otherwise, no. - What about your parents?
0:07:14 > 0:07:18My father did, he was quite a good draughtsman himself.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23He was a doctor, specialist - nose, throat and ear specialist -
0:07:23 > 0:07:26but he drew quite well and he used to go fishing
0:07:26 > 0:07:30and if the fish didn't rise, he would take out his sketchbook
0:07:30 > 0:07:34and draw the trees or something like that.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37- And he was proud of you, was he? - Well, I hadn't done anything
0:07:37 > 0:07:41to make him proud of me, but he wanted a bit...he did encourage me.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44GERMAINE: Not so her mother, who wanted her attractive daughter
0:07:44 > 0:07:47to be done with art schools and come home to Bristol.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Instead, in 1921, Paule Vezelay went to Paris.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56She was completely bowled over by what she saw in the Paris galleries.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Her father gave her a small allowance.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03I was very hard up in Paris, but I learnt a tremendous lot.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07I used to see a period of Braque and Picasso
0:08:07 > 0:08:11and various other important people in modern art,
0:08:11 > 0:08:16which were almost unknown in England at that time.
0:08:16 > 0:08:17GERMAINE: So you really...
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Do you think that when you were 17, 18,
0:08:20 > 0:08:23going to art school, that you were already looking
0:08:23 > 0:08:27for something different from the English provincial type?
0:08:27 > 0:08:31Not consciously, I wasn't, but English art then
0:08:31 > 0:08:35bored me almost to tears.
0:08:35 > 0:08:40There wasn't anything outstanding, to my mind, at that time in England.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44GERMAINE: What was wrong with it, do you think?
0:08:44 > 0:08:49I don't know, lack of encouragement probably for original work.
0:08:50 > 0:08:55English don't like originality very much in art, you know.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59GERMAINE: She was already 34 when she made the decision to leave Britain
0:08:59 > 0:09:02and work in Paris. Paris filled her with excitement.
0:09:02 > 0:09:03She wrote...
0:09:03 > 0:09:06ACTOR AS PAULE: "Below my open window lies Paris.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09"Paris who draws to her side at one time or another
0:09:09 > 0:09:11"every artist of the world.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15"What man who ever spoiled clean canvas can escape the allure,
0:09:15 > 0:09:19"and who among them all can explain her fascination?
0:09:19 > 0:09:22"Outside Paris, it is hardly an exaggeration to say
0:09:22 > 0:09:26"that modern art is treated more hardly than an illegitimate child.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29"In Paris, by people who should know of these things,
0:09:29 > 0:09:33"it is regarded that likely, if wedded with sincerity,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36"to give birth to everything of value in the art of the future."
0:09:36 > 0:09:39GERMAINE: The stylisation she had always favoured
0:09:39 > 0:09:41became more and more extreme.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43At first, like Picasso's in the Pink Period,
0:09:43 > 0:09:48and then almost Expressionist and then Matisse-like.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51More and more, she felt herself free to approach in her paintings
0:09:51 > 0:09:53the qualities of music and dance.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55She withdrew more and more,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58to follow the inexorable progress of her own work.
0:09:58 > 0:10:04In 1926, she took the plunge and executed her first abstract drawing.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06PAULE: You've got to do a lot of thinking
0:10:06 > 0:10:10before you invent something that is just rather new.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15GERMAINE: Where you are aware that you were looking
0:10:15 > 0:10:18- for your own visual language? - No, I think I wasn't aware.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22I just... It just happened that way.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27But it's very difficult to say that you must go on looking for something,
0:10:27 > 0:10:31- when you don't know what it is. - Things happen in art, I think.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34You don't want them to happen,
0:10:34 > 0:10:37you don't look for them, but they do happen.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42- What sort of things? - Well...
0:10:42 > 0:10:47art develops - the more you think about it, the more it changes.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51GERMAINE: But then once you'd developed those shapes,
0:10:51 > 0:10:53they become unmistakably yours.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56No-one else uses shape the way you do.
0:10:56 > 0:11:01PAULE: You've got to work hard at art to be an artist.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04It takes a long time to control your hand
0:11:04 > 0:11:10and make your hand obey everything you want in a line.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13A line's very extraordinary.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17It can be dark or light or curved or straight...
0:11:18 > 0:11:22..and it can be a lively line, it can be a dull line,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26but you've got to be able to control it with your hand
0:11:26 > 0:11:29and that takes years of practice, I think.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34GERMAINE: Does that mean that when you sit in front of a canvas
0:11:34 > 0:11:37and you're going to draw your line
0:11:37 > 0:11:41that the line must be right before you draw it?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44PAULE: It must be exactly as you want it,
0:11:44 > 0:11:48so that you can draw it exactly as you intend to be
0:11:48 > 0:11:51and that takes some doing.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54You can draw a line on paper in two dimensions,
0:11:54 > 0:11:58but it's more interesting if you put it into space.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04GERMAINE: But does it float in the space or does it advance
0:12:04 > 0:12:05and recede in the space?
0:12:05 > 0:12:10- What is its relation to the space? - Well, I made use of wires,
0:12:10 > 0:12:14you see, and... cos I could curve them
0:12:14 > 0:12:18and first of all I used straight lines.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21GERMAINE: But you're supposed to be among the first,
0:12:21 > 0:12:23or perhaps the first person,
0:12:23 > 0:12:28- to suspend these lines. - Yes, I think I was the first.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32GERMAINE: Paule Vezelay's manipulation of pure line is
0:12:32 > 0:12:37now seen as an important innovation in the development of modern art.
0:12:37 > 0:12:43But that was too limited, so I used plastic wires that I could curve
0:12:43 > 0:12:48and fix at one end in little boxes. They were lines in space.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52GERMAINE: But your interest in curves is one of the things
0:12:52 > 0:12:57that distinguishes you from many other abstract artists, so-called,
0:12:57 > 0:12:58and from the constructivists
0:12:58 > 0:13:01- in particular. - Yes.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05What attracted you so much about curves?
0:13:05 > 0:13:10They exist in nature and they exist in life.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12And why limit yourself
0:13:12 > 0:13:15- to straight lines and angles? - Well, you see,
0:13:15 > 0:13:17what the straight-line people might say
0:13:17 > 0:13:21is that they love straight lines because they don't exist in nature.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25Well, they're welcome to their own ideas,
0:13:25 > 0:13:30but why limit yourself when you can have curves and straight lines?
0:13:30 > 0:13:34GERMAINE: In the '30s, Paule Vezelay was exhibiting in Paris,
0:13:34 > 0:13:35Holland and Italy.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38She was recognised among her peers and respected by them,
0:13:38 > 0:13:42Giacometti, the Arps, Miro - all came to see her work.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44Ernest Hemingway bought a painting.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47It is now assumed that she was a minor artist
0:13:47 > 0:13:49merely imitating painters like Miro.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51I admired his work,
0:13:51 > 0:13:55but I don't think he had any real influence on me
0:13:55 > 0:13:58because I was already formed, you know,
0:13:58 > 0:14:03in my own work, in my own style, before I knew his work.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06GERMAINE: Well, we have found his name, you know,
0:14:06 > 0:14:10in one of the visiting books of the Bucher Galerie.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12- He came to see your work... - Yes.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15..and it seems rather likely that, in fact,
0:14:15 > 0:14:16it goes the other way round,
0:14:16 > 0:14:18- that he was influenced by you. - I...
0:14:18 > 0:14:21I don't know. You see, a lot of interesting people
0:14:21 > 0:14:25- came to the Galerie Bucher. - Yes.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27She had a great following
0:14:27 > 0:14:32because she was always sharing young artists she thought were interesting
0:14:32 > 0:14:34and the better-known artists came...
0:14:36 > 0:14:39..which was rather an honour for them.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42She gave quite a few exhibitions of my work
0:14:42 > 0:14:47and she always made me welcome when I went there.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50GERMAINE: One of the artists her name is constantly associated with
0:14:50 > 0:14:53is the French surrealist painter Andre Masson.
0:14:53 > 0:14:59People who have done research into the late '20s and 30s in Paris
0:14:59 > 0:15:03have persistently told us
0:15:03 > 0:15:08that your name is to be linked with the name of Andre Masson.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10They even told us that you were known
0:15:10 > 0:15:13as a Madame Masson, at one stage, in Paris.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16PAULE: I never called myself Madame Masson.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20We were engaged to me married and we went both of us together
0:15:20 > 0:15:24to make a declaration of intention to marry...
0:15:25 > 0:15:32..but, unfortunately, or fortunately, I had reason to change my mind...
0:15:33 > 0:15:36..and I changed it, which was very painful.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40I was very fond of him at one time.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43GERMAINE: Another artist with whom her name is often linked
0:15:43 > 0:15:45is the sculptor Jean Arp.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49- Was Arp supportive of you? - Yes, he did.
0:15:49 > 0:15:55He liked my work and I liked his work and his wife's work.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57It was splendid, I think.
0:15:57 > 0:16:02They became, both of them, very friendly with me.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05GERMAINE: And did you find that that...
0:16:05 > 0:16:08the contact with the Arps was exciting,
0:16:08 > 0:16:12- was fruitful, for you? - Yes, it was pleasant.
0:16:12 > 0:16:17I met him at a party... a little gathering and they...
0:16:17 > 0:16:22Somebody, the host, said, "Who knows Arp's work?"
0:16:22 > 0:16:27Arp, of course... Years and years ago, Arp was almost unknown.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29I said, "I do, teacher..."
0:16:30 > 0:16:32..like this, you know.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36And he said, "That's very nice, come and meet my wife
0:16:36 > 0:16:39"and have lunch with us."
0:16:39 > 0:16:41They...he lived in Meudon
0:16:41 > 0:16:44and that was the beginning of a very good friendship with them both.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48GERMAINE: Paule Vezelay went on several holidays
0:16:48 > 0:16:52in the South of France with Jean Arp and his wife Sophie Taeuber-Arp.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56Back in Paris in the mid-'30s under Jean Arp's influence,
0:16:56 > 0:17:01she began creating sculpture, which, in turn, influenced him.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03It's been said by someone that you influenced Arp
0:17:03 > 0:17:07- as well as Arp influencing you. - I think I did a little bit.
0:17:07 > 0:17:12GERMAINE: Perhaps the most important group that you belonged to
0:17:12 > 0:17:17- was Abstraction-Creation. - Yes, that was a good group.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23Of course it contained a good many interesting artists.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25That was the reason
0:17:25 > 0:17:31and they had a great struggle, Abstraction-Creation.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35They had the same struggle as the Impressionists.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38You couldn't find a dealer who'd give them a show.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42GERMAINE: Was it a help to you to be identified with that group?
0:17:42 > 0:17:47I don't know if it was a help or I perhaps helped them,
0:17:47 > 0:17:49mutual sort of help.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53But it was interesting to meet other people
0:17:53 > 0:17:57with more less the same ideas about art,
0:17:57 > 0:18:00although we didn't discuss it much.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04- You didn't discuss it? - No, no, we didn't.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08To a layman, you would think that the group was the thing
0:18:08 > 0:18:11that helped you to define what you were doing.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15Well, our work was supposed to do that, you see.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Well, then, why do artists, and, in particular,
0:18:18 > 0:18:24abstract artists, keep forming these groups with different names
0:18:24 > 0:18:27and different magazines and different manifestos?
0:18:28 > 0:18:33Because it's interesting to see what other artists are doing...
0:18:34 > 0:18:39..and, after all, you draw and paint
0:18:39 > 0:18:41because you can't put into words
0:18:41 > 0:18:44- what you want to say. - So do you think you communicated
0:18:44 > 0:18:48- with each other without words? - Yes, I think
0:18:48 > 0:18:52up to some extent we did that.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56Of course, words are easy to write, not easy to choose,
0:18:56 > 0:19:00but easy to write, and to draw a line is very difficult.
0:19:00 > 0:19:06It takes years before you can draw the exact line you want
0:19:06 > 0:19:10in the exact way, in the exact place, that you want it to be...
0:19:12 > 0:19:17..with its modulations of tone and curves and so on.
0:19:17 > 0:19:18It's not all that easy.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22GERMAINE: The distinguished English landscape painter Paul Nash
0:19:22 > 0:19:24was a contemporary and friend.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28He wrote the introduction to the catalogue of one of her exhibitions.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32I want to read you a quotation from Paul Nash.
0:19:32 > 0:19:38He says, "To my mind, Paule Vezelay's talent is unmistakably genuine.
0:19:38 > 0:19:44"For that reason, it has an especial value, a peculiar charm.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48"It is unnecessary to point out, of course,
0:19:48 > 0:19:54"that it is altogether lacking in that intractable efficiency
0:19:54 > 0:19:57"of the mannish female artist
0:19:57 > 0:20:02"or the brutal technique of the male impersonator."
0:20:03 > 0:20:09Now, I find that rather difficult to take from Paul Nash.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13That remark worries me, that in order to praise Paule Vezelay,
0:20:13 > 0:20:18he has to say nasty things about unnamed women artists.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22- He doesn't name, though. - Thank goodness.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26In the '30s, you went through a period of enormous creativity.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30You were doing a lot of work which was highly respected,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34you were a member of the group Abstraction-Creation
0:20:34 > 0:20:35and then what happened?
0:20:39 > 0:20:44- Nothing that I was responsible for. - The war, I suppose?
0:20:44 > 0:20:47- The war. - Did the war change everything?
0:20:47 > 0:20:52More or less. I lost a lot of work, I had to leave France, or be interned,
0:20:52 > 0:20:54which I shouldn't have liked at all.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58And, erm...
0:20:58 > 0:21:00The thing was to get out of France
0:21:00 > 0:21:03because the Germans were advancing rapidly,
0:21:03 > 0:21:05to get out of France while I could.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08- Then you came back to England... - Yes.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11..and you found it very difficult to work.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Yes, I did. I lived with my parents.
0:21:14 > 0:21:20My mother wasn't at all interested in art, my father was...
0:21:21 > 0:21:24..but I had to look after both of them
0:21:24 > 0:21:27as well as I could for various periods.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31It wasn't at all an easy time for me.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35So, you came up against the old female problem
0:21:35 > 0:21:38that the family is your responsibility?
0:21:39 > 0:21:44Well, I don't know whether it was a female problem exactly.
0:21:46 > 0:21:52I was an affectionate daughter and I tried to help them both
0:21:52 > 0:21:54and they helped me.
0:21:54 > 0:21:59It was a very difficult period for everybody in England.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02We had these terrible air raids.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05GERMAINE: Paule Vezelay's parents were still living in Bristol
0:22:05 > 0:22:09which took a heavy pounding from German bombers.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13She could no longer concentrate on the refinement of her inner vision,
0:22:13 > 0:22:15but went out into the shattered streets
0:22:15 > 0:22:18and drew the images of devastation.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21She was never named an official war artist,
0:22:21 > 0:22:23but she asked for, and got, permission
0:22:23 > 0:22:26to draw the barrage balloon centre in Bristol.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30It was manned, so to speak, by women, the balloon section.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32- The barrage balloons? - Yes, barrage balloons,
0:22:32 > 0:22:37so I went out there and made drawings of the barrage balloons
0:22:37 > 0:22:39and talked to the women...
0:22:40 > 0:22:43..and one man was officer there,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45he was almost in tears.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50He said, "We've had gale warnings and gale warnings
0:22:50 > 0:22:52"and no gale has come,
0:22:52 > 0:22:56"and I had...yesterday I had a gale warning and I ignored it
0:22:56 > 0:23:01"and it came, the gale came and I lost a balloon."
0:23:01 > 0:23:04Of course, they were very valuable, you see, these balloons.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06GERMAINE: They were made of silk, were they?
0:23:06 > 0:23:08- What were they made of? - I don't know
0:23:08 > 0:23:11what they were made of, but the women had to hold them down
0:23:11 > 0:23:13when they were being inflated
0:23:13 > 0:23:17and then, just at the right moment, let them go up.
0:23:17 > 0:23:22And one silly girl, she didn't let go quick enough, she got carried up.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25GERMAINE: That happened to somebody last week here in England,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28a professional balloonist got carried up.
0:23:28 > 0:23:29- Oh, yes. - Silly fellow.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32But, er, fortunately,
0:23:32 > 0:23:38she had the wit or panic to let go pretty quickly, as you can imagine,
0:23:38 > 0:23:43and she fell onto some concrete and she wasn't hurt much, fortunately.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46GERMAINE: Now, you have a drawing upstairs,
0:23:46 > 0:23:49- a pastel, of a barrage balloon. - Yes, I have,
0:23:49 > 0:23:54and I've got two nice drawings of these girls in the balloon...
0:23:54 > 0:23:59what they call the balloon shed, when they were taken down, you see.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03GERMAINE: What did you like about the balloons?
0:24:03 > 0:24:04I liked...
0:24:06 > 0:24:09They rather fascinated me, because they were balloons,
0:24:09 > 0:24:12they were up in the air, tossing about.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15- They were form without volume. - Yes.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19They rather fascinated me and they were quite useful.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23GERMAINE: And when they were being inflated, your drawing shows it
0:24:23 > 0:24:27- like it's some great... - Yes, a monster coming to life.
0:24:27 > 0:24:28It was extraordinary.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34And that shape, it seems to me, that shape, the balloon shape, for you,
0:24:34 > 0:24:39ties in with the shapes that you loved to manipulate
0:24:39 > 0:24:42- on the canvas. - Up to a point, yes.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45- Yes, they did. - Because, it seems to me
0:24:45 > 0:24:47always in your work, or nearly always,
0:24:47 > 0:24:53the ground against which the shapes float is resonant.
0:24:53 > 0:24:57The shapes seem to be capable of moving forwards and back.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59It's not flat, this space.
0:24:59 > 0:25:04- It's full of caverns. - I hope...I hope it's full of air.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07I think a painting wants to be, or a drawing,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09wants to have air indicated.
0:25:11 > 0:25:17I think a great many artists cram all kinds of forms and lines
0:25:17 > 0:25:22into their paintings which would be much better with half the number.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26Do you think that after the war you were able to pick up
0:25:26 > 0:25:29- where you left off? - No.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32I wasn't able.
0:25:32 > 0:25:37I went back to Paris, there was nothing I could afford.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41A tiny studio, about the size of this room, was £7,000.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43I hadn't got that money.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49So I didn't want to work in a hotel bedroom,
0:25:49 > 0:25:51which is absolutely impossible.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57I did go back for some time, er...
0:25:57 > 0:26:03the Bucher Galerie, Madame Bucher, she was a friend of mine,
0:26:03 > 0:26:09and she let me sleep there in a room packed with masterpieces by Picasso
0:26:09 > 0:26:13and Braque, and goodness knows who, all stacked up against the wall
0:26:13 > 0:26:19and I was allowed to sleep underneath these...
0:26:19 > 0:26:22in a little sort of dressing room.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25GERMAINE: Paule Vezelay was more than 50 years old.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28Her creative life in Paris was a thing of the past.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31She had no choice but to struggle to pick up the threads
0:26:31 > 0:26:36of her artistic development in the alien atmosphere of post-war Britain.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39Abstraction was not widely understood in Britain
0:26:39 > 0:26:42and Vezelay had played no part in the development
0:26:42 > 0:26:44of the militant modernist movement.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49So, you said to me before and I was really fascinated by it
0:26:49 > 0:26:52that, really, abstraction is impossible.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57It's ridiculous to talk about abstract art,
0:26:57 > 0:27:02but the idea is, I think, that you abstract from objects
0:27:02 > 0:27:06what you find pleasing in their form and lines and so on.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10- You abstract that. - You also talked about a language
0:27:10 > 0:27:15which spoke directly to the emotions...in your painting,
0:27:15 > 0:27:17that instead of having to tell yourself a story,
0:27:17 > 0:27:18you look at a picture
0:27:18 > 0:27:21and say, "This is this and that is that and I recognise them,"
0:27:21 > 0:27:27that the language of the painting is the pure language of emotion.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31I found that very interesting because one of the things
0:27:31 > 0:27:34I find in your painting is an emotion
0:27:34 > 0:27:37- that I would have to call joy. - I'm glad you said that,
0:27:37 > 0:27:40because I dislike sad art.
0:27:40 > 0:27:44There's enough real sadness in real life.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48I think an artist might create something joyful
0:27:48 > 0:27:53or happy or pleasing, as they used to do, after all.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58They used to paint beautiful nude women,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01which gave certain people great pleasure.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04Now, if they paint a nude,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08it looks like somebody who's been under a tramcar for about 10 minutes,
0:28:08 > 0:28:11you know - nothing's left.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14I wrote a book once about women painters
0:28:14 > 0:28:18and I said one of the worst things that could happen to you
0:28:18 > 0:28:22if you were a young woman, working very well in a class,
0:28:22 > 0:28:24under a painter who impressed you,
0:28:24 > 0:28:28one of the worst things that could happen
0:28:28 > 0:28:31was that he would fall in love with you.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34It was understood that you would be in love with him
0:28:34 > 0:28:36if you're 17 years old and he's your teacher
0:28:36 > 0:28:39and you think he's wonderful, and you were safe
0:28:39 > 0:28:43as long as he didn't fall in love with you and marry you, because then
0:28:43 > 0:28:46- you were more or less sunk. - Yes, quite sunk,
0:28:46 > 0:28:49but I don't think you can make rules about...
0:28:49 > 0:28:53what is the right sort of husband.
0:28:53 > 0:28:57If you're very much in love with a man who loves you,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00I don't think it matters all that much whether he's a painter
0:29:00 > 0:29:04- or a plumber. - But what about your work?
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Ah, yes, but you don't think of that in advance.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12Most married women, it fades out, they haven't the time
0:29:12 > 0:29:16and the energy to go on with their work seriously
0:29:16 > 0:29:22and I think it's a great mistake for a woman to marry
0:29:22 > 0:29:23if she wants to be an artist.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27GERMAINE: Paule Vezelay was a significant figure in Paris
0:29:27 > 0:29:31during one of the most vital periods in the development of European art.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34She herself is unselfconscious about fact that she's a woman,
0:29:34 > 0:29:39nevertheless, many of the factors which limited her freedom to live and
0:29:39 > 0:29:44work as she wished were inevitable concomitants of her femaleness.
0:29:44 > 0:29:49I wanted to ask you about some of the wives, women artists, whom you
0:29:49 > 0:29:53would have known or heard of or whose work you would have seen in Paris.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56Obviously the one you were closest to
0:29:56 > 0:29:57- was Sophie Taeuber-Arp... - Mmm...
0:29:57 > 0:30:00..and I've always wondered, do you think
0:30:00 > 0:30:04she would have been a greater artist if she hadn't been married to Arp
0:30:04 > 0:30:06and if she'd worked the way you had?
0:30:06 > 0:30:08She would have had much more recognition
0:30:08 > 0:30:10if she hadn't been married to Arp.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Arp was good company, he was very gifted.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20People came to see Arp, they didn't come to see her,
0:30:20 > 0:30:24but she was very gifted and very modest
0:30:24 > 0:30:29and very nice, Swiss woman, very gentille.
0:30:29 > 0:30:34She said, "How can I be an artist with one hand in the kitchen
0:30:34 > 0:30:36"and one hand in the studio?"
0:30:36 > 0:30:42Like most wives, she was expected to make beds and serve meals
0:30:42 > 0:30:43and cook and housekeep.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47It's most unfair, really.
0:30:47 > 0:30:51GERMAINE: Sophie Taeuber-Arp died in a car accident in 1941.
0:30:51 > 0:30:56Some people expected Paule Vezelay to marry Arp, instead, their spiritual
0:30:56 > 0:31:00and intellectual collaboration was carried on across the Channel.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02They have exchanged prints, sculptures, poems
0:31:02 > 0:31:04throughout their long lives.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08In the 1950s, Paule Vezelay bought a new sophistication
0:31:08 > 0:31:11to British commercial textile design.
0:31:12 > 0:31:16And somebody who produced textiles asked me
0:31:16 > 0:31:21would I design a textile for him, which I did with great pleasure.
0:31:22 > 0:31:28And then another firm, a Dutch firm, asked me to do some designs for them
0:31:28 > 0:31:34and then in England, Heal's asked me to design for them,
0:31:34 > 0:31:36and I enjoyed it very much.
0:31:36 > 0:31:41It's got to be decorative, it's got to be printable and the design,
0:31:41 > 0:31:45if it's well done, when the curtains are drawn, it's lovely.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48It breaks up the design in a most interesting way.
0:31:53 > 0:31:57Which period of your career have you enjoyed the most? Which kind of work?
0:32:00 > 0:32:02That's very difficult.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05I've enjoyed each period, I think.
0:32:05 > 0:32:09I've worked through it into something else.
0:32:09 > 0:32:15Generally speaking, you paint a picture which is good or perhaps bad,
0:32:15 > 0:32:20but it leads on to something which you hope will be more complete.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23GERMAINE: Have you never had anything like writer's block?
0:32:23 > 0:32:25You know, writers get to the stage
0:32:25 > 0:32:29- where they can't write anything. - Oh, yes, quite often.
0:32:29 > 0:32:36And I start work at my easel and I know it's bad,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39and I know it's quite bad,
0:32:39 > 0:32:42but I think it will lead on to something better,
0:32:42 > 0:32:48so I go on and I can always tear up the bad work I've done.
0:32:48 > 0:32:52It often does lead on to something more complete and better.
0:32:52 > 0:32:58Bad work can lead to good work, like sketching.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04You know, you enrich a sketch and you change things
0:33:04 > 0:33:06in the composition perhaps,
0:33:06 > 0:33:09but I think bad work's quite important
0:33:09 > 0:33:11as long as you realise it's bad
0:33:11 > 0:33:15and let it lead you on to something better.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19GERMAINE: One of the most frightening things I've ever seen is what happens
0:33:19 > 0:33:24when a painter who was neglected is taken up,
0:33:24 > 0:33:27because the art market is so stupid
0:33:27 > 0:33:32that where it ignored good work for years and years, then suddenly
0:33:32 > 0:33:34- every piece of paper... - Yes.
0:33:34 > 0:33:38..that artist made a mark on is sold for £17,000.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42- Yes, yes. - This has happened to Gwen John.
0:33:42 > 0:33:43In some ways, she makes me think of you
0:33:43 > 0:33:48because she's a very concentrated, self-possessed painter,
0:33:48 > 0:33:51- in her way, very arrogant... - Yes.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54..at not taking anybody else's judgment.
0:33:54 > 0:33:55I think you would enjoy her work.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57Perhaps we should make sure that you see some.
0:33:57 > 0:34:01- I don't think I'm arrogant. - Oh, you must be, mustn't you?
0:34:01 > 0:34:03- It's important. - Arrogant isn't the word
0:34:03 > 0:34:06- I would choose. - Proud?
0:34:06 > 0:34:09Arrogant leaves a nasty taste in your mouth, I think.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14I don't feel arrogant at all about other painters,
0:34:14 > 0:34:19even the bad ones, and I know them to be bad.
0:34:19 > 0:34:20I don't feel at all arrogant.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25GERMAINE: Paule Vezelay still works almost every day.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29Nowadays, the line has receded in importance as she works on fields
0:34:29 > 0:34:35of hue and light and shade, still following confidently, doggedly,
0:34:35 > 0:34:37wherever the work should lead her.
0:34:37 > 0:34:42I would like very much to have a qualification as master of the line
0:34:42 > 0:34:44or something of that sort,
0:34:44 > 0:34:47- because I am a master of lines. - Would you like to be a dame,
0:34:47 > 0:34:49like Dame Laura Knight?
0:34:49 > 0:34:53I would like to have any recognition.
0:34:53 > 0:34:57I don't particularly want to be a dame, I think it is
0:34:57 > 0:35:00a terrible thing to be created a dame.
0:35:00 > 0:35:04It's very stuffy and it's very Victorian
0:35:04 > 0:35:06and it's quite out-of-date to my mind.
0:35:08 > 0:35:12But any sort of recognition is rather nice to have.
0:35:12 > 0:35:20I don't know how it is that an artist decides upon a value for his work.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22I mean, how do you decide
0:35:22 > 0:35:24that your painting is worth this or that amount of money?
0:35:24 > 0:35:28- What criterion do you use? - I never...
0:35:28 > 0:35:32To tell you the truth, I never know what price I should put on my work.
0:35:35 > 0:35:39I just make a sort of guess, what I think it's worth.
0:35:41 > 0:35:42Do you have any idea what
0:35:42 > 0:35:48- other people's work is worth? - More or less, yes. More or less.
0:35:48 > 0:35:53We were told by one dealer that one of the problems
0:35:53 > 0:35:57with Paule Vezelay's work is that it's much too highly priced
0:35:57 > 0:36:00- and no-one will buy it. - I don't think that's true.
0:36:01 > 0:36:05They can't tell that they can't sell it till they try.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11GERMAINE: But you wouldn't advise anybody, for example,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13to lower prices in order to sell more?
0:36:14 > 0:36:17Not unless they're very hungry, I wouldn't.
0:36:17 > 0:36:24I think an artist should put the price he thinks the work is worth.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27- And insist on those prices? - Yes, I think so.
0:36:28 > 0:36:29Otherwise...
0:36:31 > 0:36:36..however low your prices are, people will want you to sell them
0:36:36 > 0:36:41for half the price or two for the price of one as they do in America.
0:36:44 > 0:36:51No, I think that if the painting is good, it's worth a good price.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53What percentage of your work
0:36:53 > 0:36:56- have you still got? - Oh, quite a lot of it.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02GERMAINE: And does that mean you'd rather be with it
0:37:02 > 0:37:05- than without it or... - I would rather be with it
0:37:05 > 0:37:10than sell it very cheaply for the sake of selling it. Yes, I would.
0:37:10 > 0:37:11I like my work.
0:37:13 > 0:37:17Strange as it may seem, I like my paintings.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20I like to keep them. I'm never in a hurry to sell them.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26GERMAINE: It argues a great faith in yourself
0:37:26 > 0:37:29that you've never been shaken.
0:37:30 > 0:37:35I have a certain amount of faith in myself, of confidence in myself.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40Do you ever doubt? Do you ever think perhaps it's all been a mistake?
0:37:40 > 0:37:43- No. - Never?
0:37:43 > 0:37:47I know some things are much better than the others
0:37:47 > 0:37:50and I've probably painted my share of bad pictures...
0:37:51 > 0:37:58..but I've worked seriously and people whose opinion I value
0:37:58 > 0:38:02have liked my work very much or written about it.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06That gives me a certain amount of confidence.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10Would you say that yours has been a happy life?
0:38:13 > 0:38:15I don't know what you mean
0:38:15 > 0:38:18- by happy. - Neither do I.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20I did what I wanted to do.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24I wasn't obliged to go and work
0:38:24 > 0:38:30as a typist in an office or as saleswoman or as a children's nurse.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35- I've been very fortunate. - Has it satisfied you,
0:38:35 > 0:38:37the work? Has it?
0:38:38 > 0:38:43- Up to a point, yes. - And what lay beyond the point?
0:38:44 > 0:38:47Well, it's very fascinating, painting,
0:38:47 > 0:38:49cos you learn as you go along,
0:38:49 > 0:38:53always making new discoveries and things.