0:00:03 > 0:00:07'We're living in an age of unprecedented scientific progress.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13'Every aspect of our lives
0:00:13 > 0:00:16'is shaped by the latest discoveries and innovations.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23'For me, science is one of the greatest achievements of humankind -
0:00:23 > 0:00:26'a gift given to us by God.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33'But there are many who see me as misguided -
0:00:33 > 0:00:35'they say my religious faith has become invalid.
0:00:35 > 0:00:40'It's an outdated way of thinking that doesn't fit
0:00:40 > 0:00:44'in a scientific world of hard evidence and binary logic.'
0:00:47 > 0:00:52'There is something insidious about training children to believe things
0:00:52 > 0:00:53'for which there's no evidence.'
0:00:53 > 0:00:58'Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, is when we commemorate
0:00:58 > 0:01:02'the creation of the universe and its God-given wonders.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08'It's a good time to challenge the assumption
0:01:08 > 0:01:11'that science and religion cannot co-exist.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15'I'm about to meet three non-believing scientists,
0:01:15 > 0:01:20'each working at the frontier of scientific discovery.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22'A neurologist.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24'A theoretical physicist.
0:01:24 > 0:01:30'And the evolutionary biologist who leads the scientific war on religion.
0:01:31 > 0:01:36'My mission is not to convert - that's not the nature of my faith.'
0:01:37 > 0:01:42What I hope to show is that belief in God doesn't require
0:01:42 > 0:01:45a suspension of our critical faculties.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47And that together,
0:01:47 > 0:01:51religion and science CAN make a great partnership.
0:02:02 > 0:02:08'For centuries, religion and science stood happily side-by-side,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12'but in the last few decades, that relationship has broken down.
0:02:12 > 0:02:18'You'd be forgiven for thinking they were never on speaking terms.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22'As we face the challenging problems of the 21st century,
0:02:22 > 0:02:26'I think we need to reopen the dialogue between science and religion.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30'In my latest book, I've written a letter to scientists
0:02:30 > 0:02:34'like Richard Dawkins, who use science to argue
0:02:34 > 0:02:35'that there is no God.'
0:02:35 > 0:02:38Well, I've written it to somebody who believes
0:02:38 > 0:02:41that because we live in an age of science,
0:02:41 > 0:02:44there's no need for religion any more,
0:02:44 > 0:02:46someone who believes that you have to be sad,
0:02:46 > 0:02:50mad or bad to believe in God, or practise a religious faith,
0:02:50 > 0:02:54that religion is immature, it's primitive,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57something that we have no need of,
0:02:57 > 0:03:00something that belongs to a bygone age.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04I believe that religion is being misrepresented.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09In my letter, I hope to show
0:03:09 > 0:03:13that religion is about answering questions that science cannot.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17It's about...how to live.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19What kind of world we want to create.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23How we relate to the ultimately unknowable.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26Those things are not scientific things.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32I want to show them that science and religion CAN work together,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35SHOULD work together, because they're actually
0:03:35 > 0:03:40two quite different ways of thinking and we need them both.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Science takes things apart to see how they work,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47religion puts things together to see what they mean.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54But what I believe is about to be put to the test.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00I'm about to meet three non-believing scientists.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02I don't know what they're going to say
0:04:02 > 0:04:05and there are bound to be points on which we differ.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09Will I get them to agree
0:04:09 > 0:04:14that science and religion need not be opposing forces?
0:04:15 > 0:04:21I'm hoping to express my view that God made us in his own image.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24He marked us out from other animals by giving us free will,
0:04:24 > 0:04:27morality and conscience.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32It's precisely these aspects of the human mind
0:04:32 > 0:04:36that are under scrutiny by modern neuroscientists.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41My first encounter is with
0:04:41 > 0:04:44a neuroscientist from Oxford University.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48Now is the time when we really need to understand
0:04:48 > 0:04:52more than ever before how the brain is working.
0:04:52 > 0:04:57Baroness Susan Greenfield has pioneered research
0:04:57 > 0:05:00into how the human brain generates consciousness.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05How does the objectivity get converted?
0:05:05 > 0:05:09How do ordinary old brain cells, ordinary old chemicals, how do they suddenly get
0:05:09 > 0:05:10into a scenario where you have this
0:05:10 > 0:05:13subjective sensation no-one else can share? It's an impossible
0:05:13 > 0:05:15but very exciting issue,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17but I think at the moment it's something we can...
0:05:17 > 0:05:20think about almost as philosophers...
0:05:20 > 0:05:24rather than expect scientists to come along with a tidy little experiment.
0:05:24 > 0:05:29'So far, science has been unable to explain how human consciousness is generated,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31'or even what it is.'
0:05:34 > 0:05:36Science HAS to be impersonal
0:05:36 > 0:05:39- and consciousness has to be personal.- Yes.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43Aren't we at that point when we reach consciousness
0:05:43 > 0:05:46and the self - or what used to be called the soul -
0:05:46 > 0:05:49aren't we reaching the very limits of science?
0:05:49 > 0:05:53The big problem is not so much that we're saying, "We're scientists
0:05:53 > 0:05:56"and we're going to butt out of this." It's more, if I said to you,
0:05:56 > 0:06:00"I've discovered, John... I've just discovered how the brain generates consciousness."
0:06:00 > 0:06:03What do you expect me to show you? We don't even know.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05- No idea.- No, exactly.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07See, that's the problem -
0:06:07 > 0:06:11until we actually know what kind of answer, what kind of...
0:06:11 > 0:06:14thing or solution are we supposed to come up with,
0:06:14 > 0:06:17only then can you bring the machinery of scientific method to deal with it.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21'Not only is science not able to explain human consciousness,
0:06:21 > 0:06:25'it doesn't even know what type of question to ask.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30'For me, it's religion, not science, that speaks of choice, freedom
0:06:30 > 0:06:33'and responsibility - things that make us human.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40'With neuroscience and religion competing over territory,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43'Susan's work is at the front line of the battle
0:06:43 > 0:06:45'between science and religion.'
0:06:48 > 0:06:54So are science and religion destined always to conflict?
0:06:54 > 0:06:55Absolutely not,
0:06:55 > 0:06:59I really don't think that is doing any service to science.
0:06:59 > 0:07:00Science is all about...
0:07:00 > 0:07:04having curiosity, having an open mind and challenging EVERYTHING.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06Challenging everything.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09So my own view is that you can have two seemingly incompatible things,
0:07:09 > 0:07:10that explain the same phenomena
0:07:10 > 0:07:13and you can do both - you can use both and it doesn't matter.
0:07:13 > 0:07:14So as a neuroscientist,
0:07:14 > 0:07:19I'm quite happy dealing with the subjective of my friend who is now convinced that God is with him.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23At the same time, one can talk about changes in brain connectivity
0:07:23 > 0:07:26and how experience leaves its mark on the brain. I don't think that
0:07:26 > 0:07:29one has to have both things completely reconciled.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33I think you can have the two sides to the same coin - it doesn't invalidate the coin.
0:07:33 > 0:07:38Do you think that science might not be the only way of seeing the world?
0:07:38 > 0:07:43Might...induce a little bit of humility into science?!
0:07:43 > 0:07:47See, science is now the alpha male of the intellectual world.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Religion used to be, and,
0:07:49 > 0:07:53heaven help us when religion loses its humility.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56Yeah, I remember Michael Faraday, the great scientist,
0:07:56 > 0:07:57he had a lovely quote - he said,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01"There's nothing quite as frightening as somebody who knows they're right."
0:08:01 > 0:08:05I think that sometimes one sees among some scientists
0:08:05 > 0:08:08complete intolerance, complete intransigence,
0:08:08 > 0:08:13complete conviction that you're right and everyone else is wrong, and what real science is about,
0:08:13 > 0:08:18is about having an open mind, a really open mind to things.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22My own view is that if you have a very rigid way of approaching...
0:08:22 > 0:08:25And this might apply to religion as well,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28then perhaps you're not going to progress or have the same insight,
0:08:28 > 0:08:31as if you just question everything and as I say, the whole trick
0:08:31 > 0:08:33is to ask the question rather than know all the answers.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36So would you buy the proposition that religious people
0:08:36 > 0:08:38ought to have respect for science
0:08:38 > 0:08:41and that scientists ought to have respect for religion?
0:08:41 > 0:08:45I would say, that all people ought to have respect for all other people
0:08:45 > 0:08:48and I think respect is something, er, that we can't have enough of
0:08:48 > 0:08:51and that irrespective of whether you're religious
0:08:51 > 0:08:54or scientist, or just a human being, that clearly having respect
0:08:54 > 0:08:57for others is a very good starting point in life.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05'I find Susan's approach very encouraging.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10'For her, science isn't competing with religion. In its quest
0:09:10 > 0:09:12'to understand how our minds work,
0:09:12 > 0:09:16'neuroscience isn't attempting to replace faith.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22'But there is another area of science which some claim
0:09:22 > 0:09:26'IS encroaching on religion's territory -
0:09:26 > 0:09:30'that it challenges the idea of God the Creator.
0:09:36 > 0:09:37'Within the last few years,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40'physicists have been making remarkable advances
0:09:40 > 0:09:45'in finding scientific explanations for the origins of the universe.
0:09:49 > 0:09:54'Just this year, they believe they've discovered the Higgs boson,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57'the so-called "God particle".'
0:09:58 > 0:10:02This is the particle that explains why all the other particles
0:10:02 > 0:10:05are the way they are. And by particles, I mean the very
0:10:05 > 0:10:08fundamental building blocks of everything in the universe.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15'Professor Jim Al Khalili is at the forefront of transforming
0:10:15 > 0:10:17'our understanding of the universe.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19'He's also an atheist.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23'What will he make of my mission
0:10:23 > 0:10:26'to get science and religion to work together?'
0:10:27 > 0:10:30Would I be right in thinking that there's a division
0:10:30 > 0:10:34of labour here? I mean, religious people are interested in whodunnit
0:10:34 > 0:10:39and WHY done it and scientists are interested in HOW done it.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42I guess from a scientist's perspective,
0:10:42 > 0:10:44a non-religious scientist's perspective,
0:10:44 > 0:10:48the why may not be as important as the how, because for me,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50the laws of nature,
0:10:50 > 0:10:54the laws of physics and the reason the universe is the way it is,
0:10:54 > 0:10:59are just there. In religion, you're looking for a reason behind it.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02For me, the universe just happens by accident,
0:11:02 > 0:11:08it doesn't have meaning or, or purpose, or a need...
0:11:08 > 0:11:10for a grand designer.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14Do you think that the success of cosmology thus far
0:11:14 > 0:11:17in explaining how the universe began
0:11:17 > 0:11:19has put religion on the defensive?
0:11:19 > 0:11:21To some extent, yes.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24I mean, what we've learnt in the last century... You know,
0:11:24 > 0:11:28100 years ago, we didn't know that our galaxy was just
0:11:28 > 0:11:30one of billions of other galaxies,
0:11:30 > 0:11:35we didn't know the extent of the universe of reality, and you know,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37when you say science can no longer explain...
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Well, that's where religion comes in,
0:11:39 > 0:11:43in a naive sense, it's.. This is the extent that science can answer,
0:11:43 > 0:11:48and what science has been able to do is push that boundary back.
0:11:48 > 0:11:49You know, we are now...
0:11:49 > 0:11:53We believe we understand a lot about the Big Bang itself,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56and theoretical physicists are even now beginning
0:11:56 > 0:11:59to ask the question of whether there was something BEFORE the Big Bang,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02that caused our universe to come into existence.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04So,
0:12:04 > 0:12:06in that area of science,
0:12:06 > 0:12:11I do wonder whether religion feels it's on the back foot as it retreats,
0:12:11 > 0:12:15as science encroaches on what was religion's territory,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18and I guess... How do YOU feel about that? Do you think that's true?
0:12:18 > 0:12:24Yeah, I think that there was this view that has been called "God of the gaps".
0:12:24 > 0:12:27- Yes.- So God explains whatever science can't explain.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31- Right.- And that means that every great advance in science is...
0:12:31 > 0:12:35- Squeezes that. - ..seen as a retreat for religion.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39I think the whole "God of the gaps" theory is crazy
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and incompatible with the religion that I believe in -
0:12:42 > 0:12:45the religion of the Bible, which is,
0:12:45 > 0:12:48that God, creating us in his image,
0:12:48 > 0:12:52wanted us to use our critical intelligence
0:12:52 > 0:12:55to understand the universe, to understand Creation,
0:12:55 > 0:13:00and therefore the more we understand, the more we wonder
0:13:00 > 0:13:03at the greatness of God and the universe
0:13:03 > 0:13:05and the smallness of us.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08So I see every advance for science
0:13:08 > 0:13:11as an advance for religion as well.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13That, I think, is where
0:13:13 > 0:13:17scientists and religious believers come closest together.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21We're very small, the universe is very big, and the miracle is
0:13:21 > 0:13:25that it's here, we're here and we're beginning to understand it.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27I do that all the time. I don't...
0:13:27 > 0:13:30I don't praise a higher intelligence,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33in the way that you do, but I acknowledge the wonder
0:13:33 > 0:13:36of the universe and the way it is the way it is.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38I try to understand it,
0:13:38 > 0:13:41I know I'm a very, very long way from being able to do that,
0:13:41 > 0:13:45but I, I guess like you, daily struggle to understand it.
0:13:47 > 0:13:52Despite our conflicting views on how the universe was created,
0:13:52 > 0:13:56ultimately, Jim and I are united in our shared awe at its wonder.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04'So far I've spoken to non-believing scientists
0:14:04 > 0:14:08'who've been prepared to engage in a productive dialogue with me.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14'But I'm less certain about the outcome of my next encounter.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17'I'm about to meet Britain's most vocal atheist
0:14:17 > 0:14:22'and I know I am going to be challenged about the very nature of my faith.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31'Richard Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist
0:14:31 > 0:14:37'who first made his name 36 years ago with his seminal book, The Selfish Gene.
0:14:39 > 0:14:45'Since then, he has achieved worldwide fame for his militant atheism.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48'His best-selling book, The God Delusion,
0:14:48 > 0:14:51'was a virulent attack on religion.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56'For him, the supernatural aspects of religious belief
0:14:56 > 0:14:58'are an affront to science.'
0:14:58 > 0:15:04We can never say that there definitely is no fairy, er...
0:15:04 > 0:15:06and that's the way I feel about God.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09God has the same status as fairies.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16'It's not my intention to convert Richard Dawkins.'
0:15:16 > 0:15:19I just want to see if he's willing to admit
0:15:19 > 0:15:21that there's more to life than science
0:15:21 > 0:15:25and more to religion than ignorance and superstition.
0:15:28 > 0:15:32'We're meeting in the hallowed halls of the Royal Society -
0:15:32 > 0:15:37'the institute dedicated to the pursuit of scientific excellence.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43'Its motto, "Nullius in verba" -
0:15:43 > 0:15:46' "take no-one's word for it" - is at the very heart
0:15:46 > 0:15:48'of the discipline of science.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55'This could be seen as the opposite of faith,
0:15:55 > 0:15:59'but, for me, religion at its best involves asking questions
0:15:59 > 0:16:02'and challenging conventional assumptions.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10'Will Richard see that we have something in common?
0:16:10 > 0:16:14'I've asked him to read a letter he once wrote to his daughter.'
0:16:14 > 0:16:17"Dear Juliet, now that you're ten I want to write..."
0:16:17 > 0:16:22'It offers her a life lesson about the importance of thinking for yourself.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25"Next time somebody tells you something that sounds important,
0:16:25 > 0:16:30"think to yourself, 'Is this the kind of thing that people probably know because of evidence
0:16:30 > 0:16:33" 'or is it the kind of thing that people
0:16:33 > 0:16:37- " 'only believe because of tradition, authority or revelation?' "- Mmm.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40"And next time somebody tells you that something is true,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43"why not say to them, 'What kind of evidence is there for that?'
0:16:43 > 0:16:46"And if they can't give you a good answer,
0:16:46 > 0:16:50"I hope you'll think very carefully before you believe a word they say."
0:16:51 > 0:16:54She was ten years old at the time and I wanted to do the opposite
0:16:54 > 0:16:57of indoctrinate her, I wanted to ask her
0:16:57 > 0:16:59- to think for herself.- Mmm.
0:16:59 > 0:17:04So, er, what would you say, for instance, about the Jewish tradition?
0:17:04 > 0:17:07The first duty of a Jewish parent to a Jewish child
0:17:07 > 0:17:11is to teach them to ask questions.
0:17:11 > 0:17:12Admirable.
0:17:12 > 0:17:17That's exactly what the first duty seems to me should be.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20Er, I would hope then that the parent would answer the questions
0:17:20 > 0:17:23on the basis of evidence
0:17:23 > 0:17:26rather than on the basis of tradition or scripture -
0:17:26 > 0:17:28that might be where we differ.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31'It is indeed the nature of my religion
0:17:31 > 0:17:35'for tradition and scripture to play a central role.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38'I believe the Bible records events that actually happened,
0:17:38 > 0:17:42'like God talking to Abraham, arguing with him, challenging him.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46'God really did intervene in human history.'
0:17:47 > 0:17:50You don't really believe that Abraham talked to God
0:17:50 > 0:17:52and God bargained with him.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55This is some kind of symbolic parable that you're talking about.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59It's clearly a parable and the argument between God and Abraham
0:17:59 > 0:18:02is God giving Abraham a seminar in how to be a Jewish parent.
0:18:02 > 0:18:07Teach your child to argue, teach your child to challenge.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11I get the feeling that theologians, whether Jewish or Christian,
0:18:11 > 0:18:17almost don't bother to distinguish between that which is symbolic
0:18:17 > 0:18:19and that which is literal.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22Tell me, when your daughter was ten,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25did you teach her theories or tell her stories?
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Well, you make a good point which is that there are times
0:18:28 > 0:18:34when stories get across a point better than telling it literally.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38- And when civilisation was in its childhood...- Yes.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40- ..you tell it as stories.- Yes, yes,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43there's a lot to be said for parables, certainly,
0:18:43 > 0:18:44but what I want to know,
0:18:44 > 0:18:47and I always want to know this from theologians, Christian or Jewish,
0:18:47 > 0:18:51is do you actually think it happened?
0:18:51 > 0:18:55Do you actually think that Abraham did truss Isaac on an altar
0:18:55 > 0:18:57and then let him off an altar?
0:18:57 > 0:19:01I definitely think that something happened
0:19:01 > 0:19:04that made Jews value their children
0:19:04 > 0:19:07more than in any other civilisation I know.
0:19:07 > 0:19:11I really think that God wanted Abraham,
0:19:11 > 0:19:16and Jews from that day to this, to know one thing above all others -
0:19:16 > 0:19:18don't sacrifice your children.
0:19:18 > 0:19:23Virtually every other culture in the ancient world sacrificed its children.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27It's entirely admirable that these moral lessons
0:19:27 > 0:19:31should become enshrined in the culture of any people,
0:19:31 > 0:19:32and it's entirely admirable...
0:19:32 > 0:19:37Especially, it seems to have been enshrined in Jewish culture in a very big way.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39- Something interesting happened in Jewish history...- Yes.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41..which led to these admirable things,
0:19:41 > 0:19:45but...I actually care about what's historically true.
0:19:45 > 0:19:46So do I.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51Yes, but do you think that Abraham really did truss Isaac on an altar?
0:19:51 > 0:19:54- I don't...- I want to know whether you think it is literally true?
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Well, first of all, I think
0:19:57 > 0:20:02that story is a protest against the belief throughout the ancient world,
0:20:02 > 0:20:04- that parents own their children. - Yes, indeed.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06And I think God is saying,
0:20:06 > 0:20:11- "Don't think you own this one." - Yes.- "No Jew owns his or her child.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14"They have a life of their own, they have a mind of their own,"
0:20:14 > 0:20:17and that is what I am reading from all these stories.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20These things happened, but they didn't happen as mere facts.
0:20:20 > 0:20:27They happened as morally instructive lessons, whose full import we still haven't learnt,
0:20:27 > 0:20:32because we are still allowing children to die every single day of malnutrition
0:20:32 > 0:20:35in the 21st century.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37We're still sacrificing our children.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41OK, I thoroughly applaud your statement that parents don't own their children
0:20:41 > 0:20:47and I would extend that to we should not as a society make the assumption
0:20:47 > 0:20:52that a child belongs to the same religion as its parents, which we virtually all do.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55We assume that children will automatically be labelled
0:20:55 > 0:20:59with the religion of their parents, and I think that is wicked
0:20:59 > 0:21:02and it goes with all the things you've just been saying
0:21:02 > 0:21:05about the wickedness of, er, what we do to children.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11'It's a point on which Richard and I will never agree.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15'For me, we have to give our children an identity, a heritage,
0:21:15 > 0:21:18'a story of which they are a part.
0:21:19 > 0:21:24'Will Richard have more time for a recent study from Harvard University
0:21:24 > 0:21:28'that offers evidence that religion can be a force for good?'
0:21:28 > 0:21:32Religious people are more likely than secular people
0:21:32 > 0:21:36to give money to charity, er, to do voluntary work,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40- to give money to a homeless person...- I've seen...- Would that be evidence?- Yes, it would.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45- I mean, I've seen counter evidence to that.- Yeah.- It is disputed.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48Even if that were true, it doesn't bear in any way on the truth
0:21:48 > 0:21:53of religious claims about the universe, which is what I care about.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57You can't say that because I have evidence
0:21:57 > 0:22:01that religious people are more likely to give blood or give money to charity,
0:22:01 > 0:22:04therefore what they believe about God or the Trinity,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07or whatever it might be, is more likely to be true.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09It has nothing to do with it.
0:22:09 > 0:22:16'Richard Dawkins is renowned for proselytising about the damage religion can do,
0:22:16 > 0:22:18'but he's also acknowledged that, in the wrong hands,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20'science can be just as terrifying.'
0:22:23 > 0:22:27You actually said I think, very wisely and courageously,
0:22:27 > 0:22:31that when you take Darwinism and turn it into a social philosophy,
0:22:31 > 0:22:33it becomes very dangerous.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36It can become very dangerous, and if you take it...especially if you take it in a naive way,
0:22:36 > 0:22:40it can become... it can become Nazism.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44If we based out politics on a naive interpretation of Darwinism,
0:22:44 > 0:22:47we'd be living in a kind of, erm...
0:22:47 > 0:22:51- ..Darwinian universe...- Yes.- ..in which the strong eliminate the weak.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54And I've frequently argued against that.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56I've frequently said I'm a passionate Darwinian,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59when it comes to understanding how we got here,
0:22:59 > 0:23:01but I'm a passionate anti-Darwinian
0:23:01 > 0:23:06- when it comes to deciding what kind of society we want to live in.- Mmm.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09So, erm, I just wonder
0:23:09 > 0:23:13since that you say that Darwin is one of the great...
0:23:13 > 0:23:17I mean, the greatest scientist in recent centuries,
0:23:17 > 0:23:23and at the same time you point out the way that Darwin has been misused,
0:23:23 > 0:23:26and you don't let the fact that it's been misused
0:23:26 > 0:23:29compromise your admiration for Darwin.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33Could you not also understand that in certain ways,
0:23:33 > 0:23:38- religion has been misused...- Yes. - ..and that that should not compromise
0:23:38 > 0:23:43at least some of us admiring and respecting the greatness of the great religions?
0:23:43 > 0:23:46Yes, I agree that it has been misused,
0:23:46 > 0:23:52I think what I would say, however, is that an unquestioning faith,
0:23:52 > 0:23:56and I accept that Judaism is a bit unusual in...
0:23:56 > 0:23:58because questioning is favoured,
0:23:58 > 0:24:02but an unquestioning faith justifies somebody who says,
0:24:02 > 0:24:06"I don't have to argue with you, I don't have to give you my reasons.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10"My faith tells me that X is the right thing to do."
0:24:10 > 0:24:17Now, if a child is bought up to think that faith trumps evidence, or trumps reason,
0:24:17 > 0:24:23then that child could be equipped to do something truly terrible.
0:24:23 > 0:24:28This is precisely what I think is the common ground between us.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30I don't minimise the differences.
0:24:30 > 0:24:35The common ground between us is that you and I are committed
0:24:35 > 0:24:39- to question...- Yes.- ..to the use of critical intelligence,
0:24:39 > 0:24:43to valuing human rights and the dignity of the human person
0:24:43 > 0:24:49and you acknowledge that there have been times when science has been misused,
0:24:49 > 0:24:55- but the answer to bad science is not no science...- Yes. - ..it's good science.- Yes.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59And I acknowledge that religion has sometimes been misused,
0:24:59 > 0:25:03but I argue that the answer to bad religion is good religion not no religion.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07- Yes.- And so even though there is this gap between us,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09you are not religious and I am
0:25:09 > 0:25:12and I'm not seeking to change you on this,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14could we not work together
0:25:14 > 0:25:18to value human rights, human dignity,
0:25:18 > 0:25:22where we engage in the collaborative pursuit of truth?
0:25:22 > 0:25:23Yes, it's clear that we could.
0:25:23 > 0:25:28I mean, it's clear that people of goodwill, wherever they're coming from,
0:25:28 > 0:25:32could and should work together.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34Science can be hideously misused -
0:25:34 > 0:25:38indeed if you want to do terrible things, you'd better use science to do it,
0:25:38 > 0:25:40because that's the most efficient way to do anything.
0:25:40 > 0:25:44'Religion and science have been set up as polar opposites,
0:25:44 > 0:25:47'but it appears that Richard Dawkins and I
0:25:47 > 0:25:50'might have found a way to work together.'
0:25:51 > 0:25:54So, Richard, if I can sum up our conversation,
0:25:54 > 0:25:58despite clearly major differences between us,
0:25:58 > 0:26:03I think we've found major areas of agreement and commonality -
0:26:03 > 0:26:07a respect for truth, openness,
0:26:07 > 0:26:08a willingness to question,
0:26:08 > 0:26:12and the collaborative pursuit of knowledge for its own sake.
0:26:12 > 0:26:17And you've agreed that as we think our way through
0:26:17 > 0:26:20the very challenging problems of the 21st century,
0:26:20 > 0:26:26a conversation between us might give both of us humility,
0:26:26 > 0:26:30but might give both of us a fresh perspective.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34Now if we can actually to walk hand in hand towards the future
0:26:34 > 0:26:36on that basis,
0:26:36 > 0:26:42I think that's a tremendous source for both optimism and hope.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44I'll go along with that. Amen to that.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48- Thank you.- Thank you very much.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54'I feel that we've made a real breakthrough.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58'It's the first time I've ever heard Richard be so open
0:26:58 > 0:27:00'to my position on science and religion.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05'Well, I think that was a bit of an epiphany.'
0:27:05 > 0:27:08You know, he met me more than halfway
0:27:08 > 0:27:13and I actually felt something of the magic of the power of a conversation -
0:27:13 > 0:27:18when two people really open to one another
0:27:18 > 0:27:23and that allows each of us to move beyond our normal positions.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26I really think that's what happened.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29And if it is really so, and I believe it is,
0:27:29 > 0:27:31that we do have so much in common,
0:27:31 > 0:27:34then that is a very strong argument
0:27:34 > 0:27:40for saying that there can be a great partnership between religion and science.
0:27:42 > 0:27:48'All too often, science and religion are set up as mutually exclusive,
0:27:48 > 0:27:52'but through meeting three non-believing scientists,
0:27:52 > 0:27:57'it feels to me that despite our differences, we have much in common.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01'And through conversation,
0:28:01 > 0:28:05'we may discover we're united in a desire to pursue a common good.'
0:28:12 > 0:28:15I see no conflict between religion and science.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18Science tells us about the origin of life,
0:28:18 > 0:28:22religion tells us about the purpose of life.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24Science explains the world that is.
0:28:24 > 0:28:29Religion summons us to the world that ought to be.
0:28:29 > 0:28:33On Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, we rededicate ourselves
0:28:33 > 0:28:38to the idea that God created us in love and forgiveness,
0:28:38 > 0:28:41asking us to love and forgive others.
0:28:41 > 0:28:46Add that to science and it equals hope.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd