0:00:03 > 0:00:07This week, my Advent series continues here in Edinburgh.
0:00:07 > 0:00:10My guest is someone best known for a string of hits
0:00:10 > 0:00:11in the '70s and '80s...
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Dickson.
0:00:14 > 0:00:18# January February Don't you come around. #
0:00:19 > 0:00:21- # Wasn't it good? - Oh, so good?
0:00:22 > 0:00:24# Wasn't he fine... #
0:00:24 > 0:00:26..and, in particular, one song and video which,
0:00:26 > 0:00:28according to the Guinness Book of Records,
0:00:28 > 0:00:32is still the biggest-selling UK chart single by a female duo.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38But there is so much more to Barbara Dickson than just the '80s,
0:00:38 > 0:00:40big hair and thick shoulder pads.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43In the '60s, she came here to Edinburgh,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46and this is where her career really started to take shape.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49By day, she was a civil servant.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52At night, she was making a name for herself in the folk clubs.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57Barbara's career was going from strength to strength.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00She was selling thousands of records. She was a pop star.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03And then her friend Willy Russell offered her a part
0:01:03 > 0:01:06in his brand-new musical Blood Brothers.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09She was a sensation, an ultimate star.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13# Tell me it's not true... #
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Having babies is like clockwork to me.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19I'm back on my feet and working the next day, you know?
0:01:19 > 0:01:20If I have this one at the weekend,
0:01:20 > 0:01:23I won't even need to take Monday off.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27But a sudden attack of stage fright and exhaustion
0:01:27 > 0:01:29meant she had to take a break.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31I think she just went...
0:01:31 > 0:01:33..bang, this is too much.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36I was thinking,
0:01:36 > 0:01:40I don't think I can do this any more, I'm too tired.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44Barbara was also concerned about what fame might do to her...
0:01:44 > 0:01:49I was afraid of losing my soul, losing my identity.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53..but with her strength of character and help of family and friends,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Barbara overcame those fears.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58She went on to win two Olivier Awards
0:01:58 > 0:01:59for her work on stage...
0:01:59 > 0:02:02- The winner of Actress of the Year...- Barbara Dickson.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06..and she had major roles in popular TV dramas
0:02:06 > 0:02:08Band Of Gold and Taggart.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13# This is my fight... #
0:02:13 > 0:02:15On this second Sunday in Advent,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19the themes of hope and joy shine through in her story.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22Throughout it all, Barbara's faith has carried her.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28God looks after me.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I just put my hand in this great big hand.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35This is my hand, it goes into a great big hand
0:02:35 > 0:02:38and He just says, "You're OK."
0:02:39 > 0:02:43Barbara has been performing for virtually 50 years non-stop,
0:02:43 > 0:02:47and she's showing no signs of wanting to stop now.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50So I want to find out what drives her on.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12# The early light is breaking
0:03:12 > 0:03:16# The morning sun is waiting in the sky. #
0:03:16 > 0:03:20Barbara Dickson's road to fame began just after the Second World War
0:03:20 > 0:03:22in Dunfermline, in Fife.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28The daughter of a Scottish policemen and a Liverpudlian telephonist,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31she grew up in what was then a modern-day terrace.
0:03:33 > 0:03:38When I was very, very small, we lived with my granny in Dunfermline,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41in a place called Chalmers Street.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44And there was a big back garden there.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47I remember my granny used to have... There were vegetables there.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50I don't think she dug the vegetables,
0:03:50 > 0:03:53but there was a big back garden, and the postman....
0:03:53 > 0:03:56This is... I think this is probably apocryphal, but anyway,
0:03:56 > 0:04:00they say that he was coming up with mail
0:04:00 > 0:04:04to give to my granny and he heard the singing
0:04:04 > 0:04:07and he realised that it was
0:04:07 > 0:04:09the baby in the pram.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12I would imagine it's quite unusual for a baby,
0:04:12 > 0:04:17sitting up in the pram, to be singing, but I was.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19And when you were very young as well,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22I think Doris Day was big for you?
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Well, the thing that I loved about Doris Day was that she...
0:04:26 > 0:04:30It was Calamity Jane, it was the character of Calamity Jane.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Calamity Jane!
0:04:35 > 0:04:38Because she was a girl being really, really tough...
0:04:39 > 0:04:41Are you calling me a liar?
0:04:41 > 0:04:46..who could do all that stuff that boys do without any kind of problem
0:04:46 > 0:04:50and she could shoot and she could ride on the Deadwood Stage
0:04:50 > 0:04:53- and stuff like that. - So you were a tomboy?
0:04:53 > 0:04:54Yes, very much so.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58I wanted to be Sir Lancelot when I was four.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00- Fantastic.- Yes, it's great.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03How were your family? Were they churchgoers?
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Was there much churchgoing and religion in the house?
0:05:06 > 0:05:08My mother had gone to church
0:05:08 > 0:05:12very regularly in Liverpool.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15She had been christened in the Church of England,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18but hadn't attended church as a young person,
0:05:18 > 0:05:20but was definitely C of E,
0:05:20 > 0:05:24and she heard Donald Soper speak.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28I believe in God, in God's province, in God's purpose,
0:05:28 > 0:05:30as revealed in Jesus Christ.
0:05:30 > 0:05:35Therefore, I believe that peace and goodwill and justice
0:05:35 > 0:05:37and the family life are available.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41He was a famous Methodist.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44So, she went to the Methodist Hall in Liverpool
0:05:44 > 0:05:48and heard Donald Soper and it sort of transformed her life,
0:05:48 > 0:05:51and so henceforth, she called herself a Methodist.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54May I professionally tell you that at any moment
0:05:54 > 0:05:57the thunderbolt may strike.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00- You don't look too healthy. - LAUGHTER
0:06:00 > 0:06:02My father, who was raised in the Church of Scotland,
0:06:02 > 0:06:06and they'd been married in the Church of Scotland,
0:06:06 > 0:06:08he didn't attend the Church of Scotland,
0:06:08 > 0:06:11but the minister would come round like the child catcher
0:06:11 > 0:06:15and gather up children to go to Sunday school.
0:06:15 > 0:06:20And so I, like all the other children in the neighbourhood,
0:06:20 > 0:06:25would be sitting, having Bible stories and instruction.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29"And they planned to make a special party to welcome him."
0:06:29 > 0:06:31I can't remember what they taught us,
0:06:31 > 0:06:36but I think we just talked about the parables and Jesus and his life.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39I wonder who would be there.
0:06:39 > 0:06:40- ALL:- Mary and Martha.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43Tell me about your parents, their characters
0:06:43 > 0:06:45and, as parents, what were they like?
0:06:45 > 0:06:49Well, they were very nice parents, very kind and loving.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54My mother was a feisty Liverpudlian
0:06:54 > 0:06:57who'd come from a very poor background.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01She was actually a very talented person, she was very funny,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04like a lot of Liverpudlians are, very funny,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06very observational in her humour,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09but had the most lovely singing voice.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14My father.... I mean, he was the second youngest of a big family.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16He was very shy,
0:07:16 > 0:07:20he was very sweet, very quiet,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23but I think didn't have a lot of confidence.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Very much a man of that generation,
0:07:26 > 0:07:29didn't really talk about how he felt or anything,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32but was loving and kind to me and my brother.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39The arrival of her baby brother provoked a less generous reaction
0:07:39 > 0:07:41in the young Barbara.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46When my brother was born, I was very disappointed,
0:07:46 > 0:07:48because I didn't really...
0:07:48 > 0:07:53I remember being three and a half and not really wanting competition,
0:07:53 > 0:07:55and not wanting this little baby
0:07:55 > 0:07:57who had come into the house.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Barbara's mum decided to send her to nursery school,
0:08:03 > 0:08:06but Barbara's time there was brief.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09I hated it.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Didn't want to join in, was very...
0:08:12 > 0:08:14SHE LAUGHS
0:08:14 > 0:08:15..disruptive.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Just completely subverted the whole class.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22And also, they said,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25"We don't know what's wrong with her, Mrs Dickson.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29"When we sing the morning hymn, she puts her fingers in her ears."
0:08:29 > 0:08:32THEY LAUGH
0:08:32 > 0:08:35Oh, dear, so we've virtually expelled or just taken away?
0:08:35 > 0:08:37I think I was expelled.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40And then you ran away, at one stage.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43- I ran away when I was four. - Oh, yes.- Yes, I ran away.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47I'd had enough of them and decided I was going to go,
0:08:47 > 0:08:49with my doll's pram, which I had stuffed full
0:08:49 > 0:08:52of all my possessions.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54And away I went, along the road.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58And I stopped to ask a woman for a drink of water
0:08:58 > 0:09:01and she took me to the police station.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03SHE LAUGHS
0:09:03 > 0:09:06She took me to the police station, which was very nearby and said,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09"I've got this child here!"
0:09:09 > 0:09:11My mother was furious.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13You know, she was humiliated, as well,
0:09:13 > 0:09:14because her child had run away.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18Even then, that was considered not the thing to do.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22And I think it was all to do with my brother being born.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Having said that, there's only me and my brother
0:09:25 > 0:09:27and I love my brother.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31My husband said he is the only man in my life
0:09:31 > 0:09:32who gets away with anything.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34If he murdered somebody, I would say,
0:09:34 > 0:09:37"Well, they must have deserved it." FERN LAUGHS
0:09:37 > 0:09:39"Yes, they must have provoked him."
0:09:41 > 0:09:44After her early brush with the law, Barbara knuckled down,
0:09:44 > 0:09:48but a turning point came when, after failing her 11 plus,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50she didn't get into the school of her dreams.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56I didn't go to the high school,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59which is where I thought I was going
0:09:59 > 0:10:01and it was very traumatic for me.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04There was a massive kind of
0:10:04 > 0:10:07mood of disappointment.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10I just remember thinking, this is disastrous.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13And I've never really got over that.
0:10:13 > 0:10:17So I think the disappointment of failing my 11 plus
0:10:17 > 0:10:20made me determined
0:10:20 > 0:10:23to kind of do something.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Although not at the school of her choice,
0:10:27 > 0:10:29a young music teacher named Sandy Saddler
0:10:29 > 0:10:32would soon inspire her.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35He used to give us music to sing, classical music
0:10:35 > 0:10:39and proper choir music when we were singing in the choir.
0:10:39 > 0:10:44But he would also encourage kind of free expression in music.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49So he, I know, liked folk music,
0:10:49 > 0:10:51because if you think about 1960,
0:10:51 > 0:10:55it was the time when people like The Kingston Trio
0:10:55 > 0:10:56were emerging in America.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00Like, there would be a lot of white college people
0:11:00 > 0:11:04singing songs about black people's culture in the South.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06You know, there was that kind of thing.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08It wasn't considered to be weird then.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12# But I know he's just a Louisiana boy
0:11:12 > 0:11:16# Who died with a hammer in his hand Lord, no
0:11:16 > 0:11:19# Who died with a hammer in his hand... #
0:11:19 > 0:11:22So we kind of tapped into that,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26because we learned a lot of songs via these sources.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29Pete Seeger was around very much at that time as well.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34But Sandy Saddler knew these artists
0:11:34 > 0:11:36and he liked that music,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38so he would play it to us.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42I also, around the same time, discovered The Everly Brothers.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45# There goes my baby
0:11:45 > 0:11:47# With someone new
0:11:47 > 0:11:50# She sure looks happy
0:11:50 > 0:11:53# I sure am blue... #
0:11:53 > 0:11:57The Everly Brothers made an album called Songs Our Daddy Taught Us,
0:11:57 > 0:12:00and so they have those songs,
0:12:00 > 0:12:03and they were also easy to play on the guitar,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06so this is when I first started to play the guitar.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08What are we talking, '61, '62?
0:12:08 > 0:12:12- Yeah, yeah.- The rock and roll scene was coming, The Beatles.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14- Yeah, yeah.- And you saw The Beatles.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18I did see The Beatles in Kirkcaldy.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22Everybody was screaming, so we never heard a word of what they played.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28It must've been so grim for them,
0:12:28 > 0:12:30because nobody...
0:12:30 > 0:12:32Nobody was listening to them.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36And yet, they were good, they were really good.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38I remember seeing them and thinking,
0:12:38 > 0:12:40"This is just amazing."
0:12:43 > 0:12:47Music was a driving force throughout Barbara's school years,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50and she found safety in numbers in the school choir
0:12:50 > 0:12:54until an opportunity presented itself at a local folk club.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58My school friends who were with me volunteered me to sing
0:12:58 > 0:13:01when the man said, "Would anybody like to sing?"
0:13:01 > 0:13:03Which is what they did.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07And so that was the beginning of my career, really.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10That night, out of school, was it,
0:13:10 > 0:13:12because the man who ran the folk club said,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16"I think that was really nice.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19"I'd like you to do that again."
0:13:19 > 0:13:21# For the world is slowly dying... #
0:13:21 > 0:13:24And Barbara continue to do it again and again,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27constantly impressing those that she worked with.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Barbara's voice is...
0:13:30 > 0:13:35I know it's a cliche, but it's full of integrity, it truly is.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38You know, there is a genuine British soul there,
0:13:38 > 0:13:41it is a British soul.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43Her voice comes out of these islands.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47It's not from Brooklyn, it's not from New Orleans,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50it's from these islands and it's indescribable.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54The most important thing about Barbara's voice is that
0:13:54 > 0:13:57it couldn't be anyone else. It's completely recognisable.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00It has a kind of...
0:14:00 > 0:14:04interesting mix of strength,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08enormous strength, but also a kind of vulnerable quality to it as well,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10which is unusual.
0:14:17 > 0:14:22There is a plaintive melancholia about
0:14:22 > 0:14:24Barbara's voice that's strangely,
0:14:24 > 0:14:27paradoxically, joyous and uplifting.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31She nails every single note she goes for.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35# I don't expect my love affairs
0:14:35 > 0:14:38# To last for long... #
0:14:38 > 0:14:43She's never trying to demonstrate the song,
0:14:43 > 0:14:46she's always - I think this comes from the kind of folk tradition -
0:14:46 > 0:14:49she is the servant of the songs.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51# Being used to trouble
0:14:51 > 0:14:56# I anticipate it
0:14:56 > 0:14:59# But all the same, I hate it
0:14:59 > 0:15:02# Wouldn't you?
0:15:02 > 0:15:04# So what happens now? #
0:15:04 > 0:15:07But back in the late '60s, despite gigging more regularly,
0:15:07 > 0:15:11a career in music seemed to be a pipe dream.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13I was from Dunfermline and people from Dunfermline
0:15:13 > 0:15:16didn't become pop stars, do you know what I mean?
0:15:16 > 0:15:18They didn't become film stars.
0:15:18 > 0:15:22You got a job and you got married and you settled down.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25So that was kind of my future. I saw that for myself.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29I didn't think for a minute that I would ever be sitting,
0:15:29 > 0:15:35at my age, talking to you about my life thus far.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39So, I left school with three O-levels
0:15:39 > 0:15:40and I went into the civil service
0:15:40 > 0:15:43cos if you didn't have many qualifications
0:15:43 > 0:15:45you could get a job in the civil service.
0:15:45 > 0:15:51But really my ambition was to try and earn a living as a musician.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53That's all I ever wanted to do.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56And finally, I was able to do that.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59Because you arrived in Edinburgh and there was a big scene going on here.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01Oh, yeah, it was amazing.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10Barbara made the move to Edinburgh, and in particular here,
0:16:10 > 0:16:12to the famous Sandy Bell's pub.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16She was immersed in a buzzing folk scene
0:16:16 > 0:16:19and, creatively, she felt right at home.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23There was a kind of big crowd of people
0:16:23 > 0:16:26and we all hung out together.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29We all wore polo-neck jumpers and duffle coats,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32and you could only tell the boys from the girls cos the boys had beards.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35The ones without the beards were girls.
0:16:35 > 0:16:36The hair was the same,
0:16:36 > 0:16:40the clothes were the same and the beard was usually on the boy.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46And I also fell in love, big, big time, around that time as well,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48- for the first time.- Yes.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51And my sweetheart was in Edinburgh,
0:16:51 > 0:16:54came from Edinburgh, and was at art college.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I was very committed for a long, long time.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02It took me a long time to get over him.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04He dumped me.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07I felt extremely let down
0:17:07 > 0:17:11and I was totally broken-hearted.
0:17:11 > 0:17:16# It's the end of the world
0:17:16 > 0:17:19# Cos you don't love me
0:17:19 > 0:17:23# Any more. #
0:17:23 > 0:17:28I would say to myself, "I've got to try and do something about this.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32"I've got to try and pick myself up and go on
0:17:32 > 0:17:35"and turn this around."
0:17:36 > 0:17:39# Don't they know
0:17:39 > 0:17:43# It's the end of the world
0:17:43 > 0:17:47# It ended when I lost
0:17:47 > 0:17:51# Your love. #
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Did you find that your faith,
0:17:54 > 0:17:59- perhaps quiet as it was, from Sunday school, etc...- Yeah, yeah.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01..did that come into play during that time?
0:18:01 > 0:18:05It most definitely did, because when I was here aged 17,
0:18:05 > 0:18:10I used to buy candles and I used to light them in my flat,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13and I would use them as a sort of aid
0:18:13 > 0:18:15to some kind of meditation.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19To transport myself away from what I thought was
0:18:19 > 0:18:22kind of the misery of my personal life.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24As a heartbroken woman,
0:18:24 > 0:18:29or a woman who was going nowhere in her personal life.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32But I remember being very young, lighting those candles,
0:18:32 > 0:18:37sitting there and going, "Right, that is a light in the darkness.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41"It's a flickering light, it shows me that I'm alive.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45"That candle is lit, there is oxygen in this room,
0:18:45 > 0:18:47"we can do something about this."
0:18:47 > 0:18:51But I didn't quite understand it then, but it's a good image.
0:18:51 > 0:18:57It is a good image, and the guidance that it's sort of suggesting...
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Did you feel perhaps that you might have been guided at that time?
0:19:00 > 0:19:02No. I've never felt guided,
0:19:02 > 0:19:05I've just felt that God looks after me...
0:19:06 > 0:19:11..and that when I go wrong, because I am His child,
0:19:11 > 0:19:14I just put my hand in this great big hand,
0:19:14 > 0:19:18this is my hand, it goes into a great big hand
0:19:18 > 0:19:22and He just says, "You're OK."
0:19:22 > 0:19:27He just lets me fall flat on my face to make me tougher
0:19:27 > 0:19:31and then when I get up and say, "What's this about?"
0:19:31 > 0:19:34That's what that... And that's OK, that's OK.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41In the early '70s, Barbara collaborated with someone
0:19:41 > 0:19:43who would have a big influence on her life...
0:19:45 > 0:19:47..Liverpool playwright Willy Russell.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53He was writing a Beatles-inspired play titled
0:19:53 > 0:19:56John, Paul, George, Ringo... And Bert,
0:19:56 > 0:19:59and wanted a female singer in the show.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Willy's idea was to write a show about The Beatles
0:20:07 > 0:20:12seen through the eyes of a person who did not become successful.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14He was like Everyman.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19And I went there and I sang The Beatles songs on the stage.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23Barbara was on stage in this dark theatre
0:20:23 > 0:20:25with her back to the auditorium,
0:20:25 > 0:20:30and playing away on this harmonium, doing some Beatles songs,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34and the company started to straggle into the auditorium,
0:20:34 > 0:20:36and I turned around, and they were like...
0:20:37 > 0:20:40..just, you know, stunned at what they were hearing.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42So it was a shoo-in from then on.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46And people are going, "Who is this woman?"
0:20:47 > 0:20:50And I would say,
0:20:50 > 0:20:53"Well, I'm a folk performer."
0:20:53 > 0:20:55"Well, how come we've never heard of you?"
0:20:55 > 0:20:57"Because I'm not in show business.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59"I'm a folk singer.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02"We don't have that kind of thing where I come from."
0:21:02 > 0:21:06But not only that, to bring a show from the Liverpool Everyman,
0:21:06 > 0:21:10a very good working theatre, but to open it in the West End,
0:21:10 > 0:21:13on Shaftesbury Avenue, it's an incredible thing.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16Your heart must have been bursting with excitement.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18It was fantastic, yeah,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21we had people like Peter Sellers and Rod Stewart in the audience
0:21:21 > 0:21:24on the first night and all sorts of people came.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29# Why do you sing it your way
0:21:29 > 0:21:32# At the risk of knowing that our love... #
0:21:32 > 0:21:34And when Barbara was first in the West End,
0:21:34 > 0:21:37I remember people saying,
0:21:37 > 0:21:39"Who's that remarkable girl?
0:21:39 > 0:21:42"You can't see her. Her hair is falling all over her face."
0:21:42 > 0:21:44You know? There was a lot of that kind of thing.
0:21:44 > 0:21:48"We've got to do something about that. And the glasses will have to go."
0:21:48 > 0:21:50And all that kind of stuff.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52# Think of what I'm saying... #
0:21:52 > 0:21:55My father and mother came to Liverpool for the opening
0:21:55 > 0:21:57and they came to London as well.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01Did they mind the bad language, and were you concerned about that?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04No, well, I... Yeah, I spoke to my dad and I said,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07"you know there's the F-word in this?"
0:22:07 > 0:22:09And my dad said...
0:22:09 > 0:22:13He just looked at me and he kind of raised his eyes and he said,
0:22:13 > 0:22:16"Look, I have heard the F-word."
0:22:16 > 0:22:19SHE LAUGHS
0:22:19 > 0:22:21The show was a huge success,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24and helped to launch Barbara's pop career.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27In 1976, she released her third solo album,
0:22:27 > 0:22:32with the song Answer Me, propelling her into the top ten.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35# In my sorrow now I turn to you
0:22:35 > 0:22:39# Please answer me, my love
0:22:39 > 0:22:42- # Oh answer me - Answer me
0:22:42 > 0:22:46# Answer me, my love. #
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Answer me is the perfect case in point for me,
0:22:50 > 0:22:53a folk singer singing a pop song.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56Pop at its most perfect, really, that song, Answer Me.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00And it always puts a big smile on all of our faces, you know.
0:23:00 > 0:23:01She sits down at the piano,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04we all look at each other and we all know this is it,
0:23:04 > 0:23:06we're on Top Of The Pops in 1976.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14By now, Barbara had a record label and a full production back-up.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21A press officer, label manager, publishing people.
0:23:21 > 0:23:26Yeah, there's a team looking after my work and my product.
0:23:26 > 0:23:27And your image.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30- And my image, yeah. - So, how did your image change
0:23:30 > 0:23:32and were you pleased with it?
0:23:32 > 0:23:36Well, I was doing a cover
0:23:36 > 0:23:39for the Answer Me album
0:23:39 > 0:23:42with a photographer called Lauren Zeteci
0:23:42 > 0:23:46and he said, "I want to do something seriously different with your hair,"
0:23:46 > 0:23:50and he got... He cut my hair, permed my hair
0:23:50 > 0:23:52and made me up,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55and so it was almost like a character thing,
0:23:55 > 0:23:58and I was comfortable with that.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01And I went to the theatre that night and nobody recognised me,
0:24:01 > 0:24:02so my life had changed.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05I always used that as a life-affirming image
0:24:05 > 0:24:10of what women can do with a little bit of help. Just help.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14You know? That's all I needed, to be guided into realising
0:24:14 > 0:24:16that I was a swan and not a duck.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21# I don't expect my love... #
0:24:21 > 0:24:23Barbara was certainly getting noticed,
0:24:23 > 0:24:27and was asked by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber to sing
0:24:27 > 0:24:31on the original cast recording of their new musical, Evita.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33She achieved her second top-20 hit.
0:24:34 > 0:24:38# Being used to trouble
0:24:38 > 0:24:42# I anticipated
0:24:42 > 0:24:46# But all the same I hate it
0:24:46 > 0:24:48# Wouldn't you?
0:24:48 > 0:24:52- # So what happens now? - Another suitcase... #
0:24:52 > 0:24:55I liked what I did at that time. I mean, I liked doing
0:24:55 > 0:24:59Another Suitcase In Another Hall for that Evita album.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02I'm delighted I wasn't cast as Evita.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05That would not have been good for me.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09But I got, I think, the best song, which was great, just by default.
0:25:09 > 0:25:17# Time and time again I said that I don't care
0:25:17 > 0:25:21# That I'm immune to gloom
0:25:21 > 0:25:24# That I'm hard through and through... #
0:25:24 > 0:25:27Another suitcase, another hall,
0:25:27 > 0:25:30she was the first person to perform that,
0:25:30 > 0:25:35as far as I know, and to perform it really, really well.
0:25:35 > 0:25:39It's probably one of the best songs off of that musical, I think.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41It has a really interesting melody,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44an interesting lyric and there's something a bit,
0:25:44 > 0:25:48that's a sense of abandonment that's in there and so on
0:25:48 > 0:25:50and she found that.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53More hits followed in quick succession,
0:25:53 > 0:25:56as Barbara became a familiar face on Top Of The Pops.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59Well, Barbara Dickson has come a long way since the days of
0:25:59 > 0:26:01John, Paul, George, Ringo...And Burt and here she is.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05I had a hit with January February, so I was working with Alan Tarney,
0:26:05 > 0:26:09who was the most sought-after pop producer of the time.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12That was a good record. A really good record.
0:26:15 > 0:26:16# January, February
0:26:16 > 0:26:19# I don't understand
0:26:19 > 0:26:24# Why it is you say you leave and then you turn around
0:26:24 > 0:26:26# You won't settle down... #
0:26:26 > 0:26:28I'm delighted with that.
0:26:28 > 0:26:33I love Caravans, which I did with Mike Batt and is still
0:26:33 > 0:26:36the most favourite song of anything I do today.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39People would kill me if I didn't sing that song.
0:26:39 > 0:26:45# But I'm going
0:26:46 > 0:26:49# Caravans
0:26:49 > 0:26:54# My soul is on the run... #
0:26:56 > 0:26:59But it's much more popular than January February
0:26:59 > 0:27:02because it has that kind of anthemic thing in it,
0:27:02 > 0:27:06but I don't know, you know, life is a trial,
0:27:06 > 0:27:09I'm heading out into the wide blue yonder,
0:27:09 > 0:27:11I have no idea what's going to happen to me, but off I go.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13That's why people like that song.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17# I am flying
0:27:17 > 0:27:21# Caravan
0:27:21 > 0:27:25# Moving out to the sand
0:27:25 > 0:27:30# I don't know where I'm going but I'm going... #
0:27:31 > 0:27:35Barbara's star continued to rise, helped by regular appearances
0:27:35 > 0:27:38on one of the highest-rating television shows of the time -
0:27:38 > 0:27:39The Two Ronnies.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47It was wonderful doing The Two Ronnies.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50Ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Dickson.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52They did my music as an insert,
0:27:52 > 0:27:57but it was so brilliant to be associated with them.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00I mean, apart from the 15 million people a week who watched it.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03# Try and see it my way
0:28:03 > 0:28:07# Do I have to keep on talking till I can't go on
0:28:07 > 0:28:10# Why do you see it your way
0:28:10 > 0:28:14# When the risk of knowing that our love may soon be gone?
0:28:14 > 0:28:20# We can work it out We can work it out... #
0:28:20 > 0:28:22That didn't matter to me.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24I mean, it was, all the people,
0:28:24 > 0:28:26all the people who were number crunching were going,
0:28:26 > 0:28:29"That's a marvel, they sell a lot of records."
0:28:29 > 0:28:31And doing Top Of The Pops much the same, but to me,
0:28:31 > 0:28:35I was always more excited by who else was on Top Of The Pops.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38You know, "Oh, I'm on with somebody. I'm on with Phil Collins.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40"Oh, my goodness, that's brilliant."
0:28:40 > 0:28:45# I was never so much younger than... #
0:28:46 > 0:28:50Another hit single that Barbara has forever been associated with
0:28:50 > 0:28:52was taken from the musical, Chess.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55- # Wasn't it good? - Oh, so good
0:28:55 > 0:28:58- # Wasn't he fine? - Oh, so fine
0:28:58 > 0:29:02- # Isn't it madness - He won't be mine...- #
0:29:02 > 0:29:04Recorded with Elaine Paige,
0:29:04 > 0:29:07it became number one and became a top-ten hit around the world.
0:29:07 > 0:29:13# Didn't I know how it would go if I knew from the start... #
0:29:15 > 0:29:18I mean, I love I Know Him So Well.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21I mean, people think the video's a bit, well,
0:29:21 > 0:29:23so what, it's of its time.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26And you'd put up with the video any time
0:29:26 > 0:29:28for that great melody, wouldn't you?
0:29:28 > 0:29:32# Wasn't it good
0:29:32 > 0:29:34# Wasn't he fine
0:29:34 > 0:29:36# Isn't it madness
0:29:36 > 0:29:40# He won't be mine
0:29:41 > 0:29:47# But in the end he needs a little bit more than me
0:29:47 > 0:29:54- # More security - He needs his fantasy and freedom
0:29:54 > 0:29:58# I know him so well... #
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Well, that video, that in capital letters,
0:30:01 > 0:30:04that video of I Know Him So Well,
0:30:04 > 0:30:07is kind of burned into the consciousness
0:30:07 > 0:30:09of a lot of people who grew up in the '80s.
0:30:09 > 0:30:13Everybody knows it and it's, let's face it,
0:30:13 > 0:30:19it's loved by a lot of people, but it didn't reflect her at all.
0:30:19 > 0:30:23There is a slightly unfortunate thing in our lives
0:30:23 > 0:30:27where people do tend to get branded with something
0:30:27 > 0:30:30or perhaps the most prominent thing you did.
0:30:30 > 0:30:35Be careful of what that is cos it's going to follow you around forever.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38But I think she handles that rather well.
0:30:40 > 0:30:44Barbara was a household name and was even given her own show.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47Yet all this attention didn't sit easily with her.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53I did too much light entertainment.
0:30:53 > 0:30:54There's no doubt about that.
0:30:54 > 0:30:57Because I was kind of seen as the girl next door.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01# Just a dream and the wind to carry me
0:31:01 > 0:31:05# And soon I will be free... #
0:31:08 > 0:31:12They would think, "Oh, she's nice. She's harmless, let's get her."
0:31:12 > 0:31:16And so I would be on every single show where they would go,
0:31:16 > 0:31:18"Ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Dickson."
0:31:18 > 0:31:22That was OK, but there was too much of that and I think there was
0:31:22 > 0:31:25too much of me on television at that time.
0:31:27 > 0:31:29Hello and welcome to another afternoon show.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33Still In The Game, Barbara Dickson.
0:31:34 > 0:31:35..Week's reviewers are
0:31:35 > 0:31:38- the singer and songwriter Barbara Dickson...- Good evening.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42Completing a trio of very lovely ladies, Barbara Dickson.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44This is Caravans from Barbara Dickson.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53Were you uncomfortable with fame or did you enjoy it?
0:31:53 > 0:31:58No, I didn't enjoy it at all because I was always concerned with
0:31:58 > 0:32:00diluting what I felt that I had to offer
0:32:00 > 0:32:02and I think to a large extent, it did.
0:32:02 > 0:32:07I think she probably doesn't like all the stuff that comes with fame,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11the kind of shallow aspect of it because that's one thing she isn't,
0:32:11 > 0:32:13she isn't shallow at all.
0:32:13 > 0:32:18And all the stuff that comes along with being famous,
0:32:18 > 0:32:20people wanting something from you.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22I remember her telling a story, very early on,
0:32:22 > 0:32:26she must of just been in Blood Brothers and she was walking
0:32:26 > 0:32:30down Shaftesbury Avenue and somebody got out of a taxi, saw her,
0:32:30 > 0:32:32came running over and said, "Are you Barbara Dickson?"
0:32:32 > 0:32:35She said, "No, you've got me mixed up." Carried straight on.
0:32:35 > 0:32:41Quite often, at the end of some kind of showbiz do or whatever,
0:32:41 > 0:32:44she'll be there for it but then she'll go.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46You'll look around, she won't be there.
0:32:47 > 0:32:51Barbara's resistance to fame was more than just an aversion to parties.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54She found it a genuine struggle and sought help
0:32:54 > 0:32:55in the form of counselling.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00And I did analysis for quite a long time...
0:33:02 > 0:33:05..and I... It helped me enormously.
0:33:05 > 0:33:10All it did was help me to prioritise things and lose a bit of fear.
0:33:10 > 0:33:15Got rid of a lot of fear, unnecessary fear about things.
0:33:15 > 0:33:16What were you afraid of?
0:33:16 > 0:33:22I was afraid of losing my soul, losing my identity.
0:33:22 > 0:33:30I had a very good manager who was very ambitious on my behalf,
0:33:30 > 0:33:35but unfortunately, I didn't share his world view of what I should be,
0:33:35 > 0:33:37which was very, very frustrating for him
0:33:37 > 0:33:41because he couldn't understand why somebody wouldn't want to do
0:33:41 > 0:33:47three years at Las Vegas, you know. Being on every night of the week.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51I could not have borne it because to me, it was utterly miserable.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56The 1980s continued to offer Barbara new challenges.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00Her old friend, Willie Russell, asked her to take on the lead role
0:34:00 > 0:34:03of Mrs Johnstone in his new musical, Blood Brothers.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05# I regret to inform you
0:34:06 > 0:34:11# That owing to circumstances quite beyond our control
0:34:11 > 0:34:13# It's a premature retirement... #
0:34:13 > 0:34:15I certainly remember Blood Brothers.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17She took to it so well.
0:34:17 > 0:34:23She's one of those people who probably is infuriating
0:34:23 > 0:34:27for people who've studied acting for years and years,
0:34:27 > 0:34:29you know, that she sounds genuine.
0:34:29 > 0:34:34She sounds, you know, she has that knack of making it sound natural.
0:34:34 > 0:34:40# And the price you're going to have to pay
0:34:40 > 0:34:46# It's just a secret glance across the room... #
0:34:46 > 0:34:49The winner of the Actress Of The Year In A Musical is...
0:34:49 > 0:34:51Barbara Dickson!
0:34:52 > 0:34:54CHEERING
0:34:55 > 0:34:58Totally well-deserved award for singer, Barbara Dickson,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01for her fine performance in Willy Russell's dramatic musical
0:35:01 > 0:35:04from the Liverpool Playhouse, Blood Brothers.
0:35:04 > 0:35:06Despite being a hit in the West End,
0:35:06 > 0:35:10Barbara originally wrestled with whether she should take on the role.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15So when you were offered Mrs Johnstone,
0:35:15 > 0:35:18did you at first think, that's definitely for me,
0:35:18 > 0:35:21I'm a fit, or was it frightening?
0:35:21 > 0:35:25It was terrifying, and in fact, I didn't, I said I wouldn't do it.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27I had to really be backed into a corner,
0:35:27 > 0:35:29because I'd never acted before,
0:35:29 > 0:35:32and I wasn't prepared to kind of take a chance on it.
0:35:32 > 0:35:37I thought in my heart it was too difficult for me to do that.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40I could sing the songs without any difficulty,
0:35:40 > 0:35:43but what was a problem for me, was the acting,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46because I wanted to do justice to it.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49Oh, but it's all right, Mrs Lyons, I'll still be able to do my work,
0:35:49 > 0:35:51having babies is like clockwork to me.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54I'm back on my feet and working the next day, you know.
0:35:54 > 0:35:58If I have this on the weekend, I won't even need to take one day off.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00She was terrified.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04She was absolute terrified, and it caught up with her, that terror,
0:36:04 > 0:36:06because, I know what it's like.
0:36:06 > 0:36:11She's got no...basis on which to...
0:36:13 > 0:36:16..to conduct a long run of a show.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20Having not acted before, and I had no experience of acting,
0:36:20 > 0:36:25I came twice...the wheels came off what I was doing.
0:36:25 > 0:36:27Once in Liverpool and once in London.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29In the middle of the run in Liverpool,
0:36:29 > 0:36:34I think something to do with the seriousness of the role,
0:36:34 > 0:36:39the amount of angst that was required from me,
0:36:39 > 0:36:45the emotional roller-coaster of the part, I couldn't pretend to do it.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49I was doing it kind of for real, all the time.
0:36:49 > 0:36:54So it was so arduous, that in the middle of the run in...
0:36:56 > 0:36:59..in Liverpool, I had a kind of crisis.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05# Tell me it's not true
0:37:06 > 0:37:12# Say it's just a story... #
0:37:13 > 0:37:19I remember talking to Barbara about her finding it difficult
0:37:19 > 0:37:23to keep doing that same performance again and again and again.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27You know, that sort of relentless aspect of being in the West End.
0:37:27 > 0:37:31And, you know, needing to step back from that.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34# Say it's just a dream
0:37:34 > 0:37:36# Say it's just a scene... #
0:37:38 > 0:37:42I remember Barbara saying. She did that classic thing, you know,
0:37:42 > 0:37:45I mean, I know how frightening it can be when you're on stage,
0:37:45 > 0:37:48and you leave your own body, and you're up there, you know.
0:37:48 > 0:37:52You're up in the flies looking down at yourself, you know.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56A lot of people never overcome that. Barbara has.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58She said to me many, many years later,
0:37:58 > 0:38:01that after that occasion in Liverpool,
0:38:01 > 0:38:05she was never really fully able to enjoy the show,
0:38:05 > 0:38:08because the second she came off stage, you know,
0:38:08 > 0:38:12ecstatic applause ringing in her ears, her first thought would be,
0:38:12 > 0:38:14"I've got to do it again tomorrow."
0:38:19 > 0:38:24It never occurred to me to leave the show, but I was thinking,
0:38:24 > 0:38:27"I don't think I can do this any more, I'm too tired."
0:38:32 > 0:38:35I could hardly put one foot in front of the other, and if I think,
0:38:35 > 0:38:40if I had had the mental strength to go on and on and on,
0:38:40 > 0:38:42I would've had a terrific nervous breakdown.
0:38:43 > 0:38:47But I didn't, I just kind of went home in floods of tears,
0:38:47 > 0:38:50got put to bed, and was off about four weeks,
0:38:50 > 0:38:53and then eventually went back.
0:38:53 > 0:38:58And my stage fright, because of these things that had happened to me
0:38:58 > 0:39:03in Blood Brothers, that stayed with me for years.
0:39:03 > 0:39:07So from 1983 to about the late '90s,
0:39:07 > 0:39:10I suffered every single time I went on stage.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12I had terrible anxiety.
0:39:12 > 0:39:17# Beginning to think that I'm wasting time
0:39:20 > 0:39:24# And I don't understand the things I do
0:39:27 > 0:39:29# The world outside looks so unkind... #
0:39:32 > 0:39:35Once you've traumatised yourself with the terrible fear
0:39:35 > 0:39:39and you've had that thing of saying the line and thinking,
0:39:39 > 0:39:42"I don't know what I'm going to say next, I've no idea, here it comes,
0:39:42 > 0:39:44"here it comes," and there it isn't.
0:39:44 > 0:39:48I can understand that that's extremely traumatic,
0:39:48 > 0:39:52and then you...then you become frightened of becoming frightened.
0:39:52 > 0:39:57# I want to get lost in the rock and roll and drift away... #
0:40:06 > 0:40:09I don't have it now, but now, you see, if somebody was to ring me up
0:40:09 > 0:40:12and say, "Will you sing at the Oscars?" I would say, "No,"
0:40:12 > 0:40:17because I might be sick in a bucket before I do it,
0:40:17 > 0:40:20and I can't do that any more. Life's too short.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22She just doesn't do anything she doesn't want.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25She'd rather go and sing some, um...
0:40:25 > 0:40:32you know, some advent carol in a cathedral, for one night,
0:40:32 > 0:40:33for nothing,
0:40:33 > 0:40:38than go out to Australia and eat bugs for half a million quid!
0:40:40 > 0:40:42She would! I know she would.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49With work dominating Barbara's life so completely,
0:40:49 > 0:40:52she'd ruled out the chance of being lucky in love.
0:40:55 > 0:40:57So I thought, this is not going to happen to me,
0:40:57 > 0:41:01because I'd had a couple of broken relationships famously.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05I made a big mistake in one of them and I went, "This... I'm really..."
0:41:05 > 0:41:07And then I was in analysis.
0:41:08 > 0:41:11But in 1983, she met an assistant stage manager
0:41:11 > 0:41:14who was 11 years her junior, Oliver Cookson.
0:41:17 > 0:41:21The first time I met her was in the rehearsal room at Matthew Street.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24She was smaller than I thought, having seen her on television.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27I thought she was quite... quite tall,
0:41:27 > 0:41:28when I saw her on television,
0:41:28 > 0:41:31but she was smaller and um...
0:41:31 > 0:41:33And I thought more interesting looking, actually.
0:41:35 > 0:41:37And I think probably the first thing I said to her
0:41:37 > 0:41:39would be something along the lines of...
0:41:39 > 0:41:42Hello, I'm Oliver, would you like to join the tea club?
0:41:44 > 0:41:47Which, for chat-up lines is not... not a great one, but it sort of,
0:41:47 > 0:41:50something happened, and she did.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54And so I had to put some money into having tea and coffee
0:41:54 > 0:41:56in the rehearsal room in Matthew Street in Liverpool.
0:41:56 > 0:42:01And, er, we got to know each other over those weeks and months
0:42:01 > 0:42:04in Liverpool and then the show moved to London
0:42:04 > 0:42:07and we all moved to London with it.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12He and I used to talk, we were part of the gang who went out and stuff,
0:42:12 > 0:42:15and obviously, there was a really nice relationship between us,
0:42:15 > 0:42:16but I...
0:42:16 > 0:42:22It's famously known that I thought, this is not my relationship,
0:42:22 > 0:42:25because he was 11 years younger than me.
0:42:25 > 0:42:30And I thought, that's not, that's not going to be a relationship.
0:42:30 > 0:42:35I think she was a bit unsure, because of...11 years.
0:42:37 > 0:42:41But, Barbara, she thinks too much. Everything is thought through.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44I just thought, she's the girl for me, this will do,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47what's the problem? You know. And um...
0:42:49 > 0:42:52She was all right, she got there in the end.
0:42:52 > 0:42:58# Little darlin', it's been a long cold lonely winter... #
0:42:58 > 0:43:03When we eventually got together, which took a very long time,
0:43:03 > 0:43:08I just remember cutting to being in church getting married
0:43:08 > 0:43:11in Richmond, and going, "My God, this is so serious.
0:43:11 > 0:43:15"This is a really serious thing I'm saying here."
0:43:15 > 0:43:20# Little darlin' The smiles we turn... #
0:43:20 > 0:43:25I hope I can fulfil what I am saying I'm going to do here.
0:43:25 > 0:43:30I was a bride who listened to what the priest was saying.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34# Here comes the sun and I say
0:43:34 > 0:43:36# It's all right
0:43:40 > 0:43:42# It's all right... #
0:43:52 > 0:43:53APPLAUSE
0:43:55 > 0:44:00And talking about faith, Oliver was, is a Catholic...
0:44:00 > 0:44:03- Yes.- And really wanted to be married in a Catholic church.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06However, he was extremely lapsed.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09- Ah.- He was lapsed.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11And you were coming into it.
0:44:11 > 0:44:14It was me that brought us back to church, basically.
0:44:14 > 0:44:19And, of course, I had to get baptismal evidence from the...
0:44:19 > 0:44:23..from Dunfermline Abbey where I had been baptised
0:44:23 > 0:44:26in the Church of Scotland years before,
0:44:26 > 0:44:32and then we were married in a Catholic Church in Richmond.
0:44:32 > 0:44:36I was 35 and I had to make a decision about,
0:44:36 > 0:44:40if I was going to have some children, I had to get on with it.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43I said, "Can we have a baby?"
0:44:43 > 0:44:48And he said, "No, you're not going to have a baby until you get your overdraft down."
0:44:50 > 0:44:51That's what he said to me.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54I mean, it sounds bit mean really, looking back on it.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58You say you can't have a baby until you get rid of your overdraft,
0:44:58 > 0:45:01but you know, my mum was quite careful with money.
0:45:01 > 0:45:05Being married to an actor, you know, it wasn't always...
0:45:05 > 0:45:09There wasn't always work out there, so you had to be careful.
0:45:09 > 0:45:12Did I ever get rid of that overdraft quickly?
0:45:17 > 0:45:20Barbara fulfilled her dream of having a family,
0:45:20 > 0:45:22and was blessed with three boys.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25She was also becoming increasingly drawn to the Catholic church,
0:45:25 > 0:45:27and soon made a big decision.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32The parish priest I hardly knew he said,
0:45:32 > 0:45:36"Barbara, don't become a Catholic because your family
0:45:36 > 0:45:40"need to go to church. That's not why you should do it.
0:45:40 > 0:45:43"If you want to come into the faith,
0:45:43 > 0:45:47"come in to the faith because of what is in your heart,
0:45:47 > 0:45:49"not because of anybody else."
0:45:49 > 0:45:52So I frogmarched everybody down to church
0:45:52 > 0:45:56and we started to go to church, and then I suddenly went,
0:45:56 > 0:45:59"This is what I've always wanted to do."
0:45:59 > 0:46:02So I had a sponsor.
0:46:02 > 0:46:06I was confirmed in the 1990s.
0:46:06 > 0:46:11So it was just wonderful, because I felt as if I was coming home.
0:46:11 > 0:46:16And the liturgy in the faith is the thing that I just love,
0:46:16 > 0:46:20and suddenly, I've connected to something pre-Reformation.
0:46:20 > 0:46:25And I think as you get older you realise what's important, you know,
0:46:25 > 0:46:29family and friends and trying to make the world a better place.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33She wasn't Catholic when I met her,
0:46:33 > 0:46:36but she had a very strong tractor beam
0:46:36 > 0:46:39pulling her towards Catholicism.
0:46:41 > 0:46:44But it was in a very... in a very lovely way.
0:46:44 > 0:46:48She didn't become a ranting fundamentalist
0:46:48 > 0:46:49or anything like that.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53She wasn't like a new convert who decided to shout at everyone,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56you know, she wasn't a manic street preacher.
0:46:56 > 0:46:57She doesn't evangelise,
0:46:57 > 0:47:01it's very much something that is hers, it's her life.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06# Why did you go?
0:47:09 > 0:47:11# Why did you go?
0:47:13 > 0:47:18# Don't you know, don't you know
0:47:18 > 0:47:24# I need you?
0:47:24 > 0:47:31# I keep hoping you'll come back to me... #
0:47:31 > 0:47:35For wherever I go in the world, I go to mass and mumble away
0:47:35 > 0:47:40in English while everyone is mumbling away in Serbo-Croat.
0:47:40 > 0:47:41I'm fine with that.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45And I feel connected to the world through my faith,
0:47:45 > 0:47:47and I feel connected to Saint Paul.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50That's it, simple.
0:47:50 > 0:47:54Wow. That's... When you say simple, well, that's a vast thing.
0:47:54 > 0:47:58It's a vast thing that I see very clearly as a through line.
0:47:58 > 0:48:04It's absolutely, utterly where I love to be.
0:48:04 > 0:48:06Everything makes sense to me...
0:48:08 > 0:48:10..in that way.
0:48:10 > 0:48:16I'm still anxious and I'm not a good person, and I just strive to be,
0:48:16 > 0:48:19you know, a reasonable human being,
0:48:19 > 0:48:23and to be kind and loving and fair
0:48:23 > 0:48:27and tolerant, but I'm not always.
0:48:27 > 0:48:32- Well, you're human.- I'm not remotely perfect, and I never will be.
0:48:32 > 0:48:34And none of us are.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38But it just gives me a little code, and that's a good thing.
0:48:38 > 0:48:43Rules and codes are good, in my experience.
0:48:43 > 0:48:48There is also something that a lot of people can experience in church,
0:48:48 > 0:48:50it's not all the time, not every time,
0:48:50 > 0:48:55but that real sense of fellowship that you are in a crowd of people
0:48:55 > 0:48:59feeling, thinking the same thing, and that's very, very powerful.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02Do you ever get that feeling?
0:49:03 > 0:49:06I do, I do think that's a factor, but for me,
0:49:06 > 0:49:11it's feeling the presence in church of the spiritual,
0:49:11 > 0:49:14the collective spirituality.
0:49:14 > 0:49:19It's quite...it's quite abstract what I'm talking about.
0:49:19 > 0:49:23But I can feel that in an abandoned redundant church in England
0:49:23 > 0:49:29that's been closed for 20 years, but is a medieval building.
0:49:29 > 0:49:34I can go into that and I can feel the prayers of the people
0:49:34 > 0:49:36who have been in there.
0:49:36 > 0:49:41There's something gorgeous within those bare walls
0:49:41 > 0:49:44and the dusty few pews that are still there.
0:49:44 > 0:49:48So if you go into a working cathedral where you can smell
0:49:48 > 0:49:52incense and there's the smell of, say, flowers,
0:49:52 > 0:49:55but nobody is in there, that is the thing.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01It was GK Chesterton, I think, who talked about the presence,
0:50:01 > 0:50:03feeling the presence.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07CHOIRBOY SINGS
0:50:09 > 0:50:12Our clergy are lovely.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14They are kind, they're tolerant,
0:50:14 > 0:50:17there's a lot of difficulties in Edinburgh.
0:50:17 > 0:50:18There's a lot of difficulties anywhere.
0:50:18 > 0:50:23There's homeless people, a lot of disadvantaged people who want
0:50:23 > 0:50:27support, who can't always get it, who come wandering about
0:50:27 > 0:50:31in places like churches looking for people, and they're great.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35You volunteer in the church, doing the flowers, cleaning,
0:50:35 > 0:50:38- you're on the rota.- Yeah, I am.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40I do what I can.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44I'm a reader, I read with Oliver.
0:50:44 > 0:50:49# Here might I stay and sing
0:50:49 > 0:50:55# No story so divine... #
0:50:56 > 0:50:59As well as the fulfilment she finds in church and family,
0:50:59 > 0:51:04Barbara is passionate as ever about her first love, music.
0:51:04 > 0:51:10# This is my friend in whose sweet praise... #
0:51:10 > 0:51:1650 years after she started, Barbara's still eager to get out on the road.
0:51:20 > 0:51:252019 is my next big band tour.
0:51:25 > 0:51:29That is... The main venues, you know, I'll play Glasgow,
0:51:29 > 0:51:34Newcastle, London, play the big ones with my five-piece band.
0:51:34 > 0:51:40And that is the most, for me, the most glorious musical experience
0:51:40 > 0:51:44doing the perfect music with the best possible people.
0:51:44 > 0:51:48She can go out there every couple of years and fill the halls
0:51:48 > 0:51:50and there's a really good crowd
0:51:50 > 0:51:53of regular attendees who want to come and see her,
0:51:53 > 0:51:56and there's lots of new people keep on coming as well.
0:51:56 > 0:52:00So, that's no small achievement when you look at all of
0:52:00 > 0:52:03what could be described as similar careers around the place.
0:52:03 > 0:52:09The beautiful paradox is that she became a huge star,
0:52:09 > 0:52:11but she never pursued it.
0:52:11 > 0:52:15She never wanted to be a big pop singing superstar, she never did.
0:52:15 > 0:52:17All she wanted to be was a musician,
0:52:17 > 0:52:21and that's exactly what she is in every sense.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24# I would gang with you
0:52:24 > 0:52:29# A stranger... #
0:52:34 > 0:52:36You're taking care of yourself?
0:52:36 > 0:52:39- I don't really take care of myself, no.- Don't you?- No, I know.
0:52:39 > 0:52:41I'm not a pampered woman.
0:52:41 > 0:52:45And everybody in my family would laugh at me if I was.
0:52:45 > 0:52:50But they all say that, um, that I'm a good representative
0:52:50 > 0:52:54of a woman of my age. I've got something to say for myself,
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and I haven't had facial surgery,
0:52:57 > 0:53:02and I don't believe in anything like that, because I think it's a lie.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05And you have to learn to live with yourself
0:53:05 > 0:53:07and that's what I'm trying to do.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10Like everyone else, I have bad days and good days,
0:53:10 > 0:53:15but in the main, I want to be useful,
0:53:15 > 0:53:18particularly to my own peer group as well.
0:53:18 > 0:53:24I want to inspire people and let everybody know that it's possible
0:53:24 > 0:53:30to do what I'm doing, and keep... Do what you do.
0:53:30 > 0:53:31Do what, you know...
0:53:31 > 0:53:37You are nothing like as old as I am, but my peer group...
0:53:37 > 0:53:39Well, we're close, we're close.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42- I'm 60.- I'm 70.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44So in that extra ten years,
0:53:44 > 0:53:49a lot of people would tend to give up once they retire, and say,
0:53:49 > 0:53:53"Right, OK, that's it now. I've got to be a grey-haired old granny."
0:53:53 > 0:53:55Now, there's none of that at all.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58I don't think anybody needs to be anything they don't want to be.
0:53:58 > 0:54:03- Yes.- And I get women with glowing faces coming up to me
0:54:03 > 0:54:08at the end of the show and saying, "You are an inspiration to me.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12"I'm the same age as you, and you are an inspiration to me."
0:54:12 > 0:54:16We have to not listen to anybody who says it's impossible.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19- Keep going.- No. Keep being who we are.- Absolutely.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21Please welcome Barbara Dickson.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24APPLAUSE
0:54:26 > 0:54:29So, Christmas, darling. Do you have a lovely Christmas?
0:54:29 > 0:54:35Do you go mad decorating the house, presents, food, church?
0:54:35 > 0:54:37No, I don't, I don't overdo it.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40It's quite simple and it's quite real, our Christmas.
0:54:40 > 0:54:45# Through the bleak midwinter
0:54:45 > 0:54:52# Frosty wind made moan... #
0:54:52 > 0:54:54Everybody in my family is a cook.
0:54:54 > 0:54:59So it really is literally too many cooks, all fighting and arguing,
0:54:59 > 0:55:02and drinking wine in the kitchen and arguing with each other.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05So Oliver said, "No, we're going to go out."
0:55:05 > 0:55:08So we're going to go out for Christmas dinner.
0:55:08 > 0:55:13# Snow on snow
0:55:13 > 0:55:19# In the bleak midwinter
0:55:19 > 0:55:22# Long, long ago... #
0:55:22 > 0:55:28So what we do is, now, we go to midnight mass, which is wonderful.
0:55:28 > 0:55:31So we tend to not get to bed until about 2am.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35That mass is big-time, and it goes on and on and on.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38The Bishop will be there, it will be fantastic.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41The church will be lit, flowers, wonderful.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44It's such a lovely, joyful celebration.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47It's so wonderful, it starts Christmas for us.
0:55:47 > 0:55:51Come home, probably have a glass of something, fall into bed.
0:55:51 > 0:55:58Get up kind of late, have a brunch and then open presents,
0:55:58 > 0:56:00and lovely time round the tree,
0:56:00 > 0:56:05and then we'll go out for lunch and then just a quiet Christmas.
0:56:05 > 0:56:08Well, we wish you a very Merry Christmas
0:56:08 > 0:56:10and a good New Year as well.
0:56:10 > 0:56:11- Thank you, Barbara.- You're so kind.
0:56:11 > 0:56:14Thank you very much, Fern, it's been a delight.
0:56:14 > 0:56:15It has been lovely.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23Well, what a lovely morning with Barbara.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26I started the day wondering what it is that drives her
0:56:26 > 0:56:29through her career, and I think it's clear.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32She's just very human and she has enormous fortitude.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35And when life has been bad, she's got on with it.
0:56:35 > 0:56:37When life has been good, she's got on with it.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39Sometimes there's been bad and good and she's got on with it.
0:56:39 > 0:56:43And that message about always be what you want to be,
0:56:43 > 0:56:46not what others want you to be, is very strong.
0:56:48 > 0:56:51Next week, I'm going to the House of Commons
0:56:51 > 0:56:53to meet the Reverend Rose Hudson Wilkin
0:56:53 > 0:56:56who's been looking after the spiritual welfare of MPs
0:56:56 > 0:57:01during a period which saw a terror attack on Westminster itself.
0:57:01 > 0:57:04We are not defined by that act of evil,
0:57:04 > 0:57:08instead, we are defined by acts of forgiveness.
0:57:08 > 0:57:13Rose has also had to deal with the murder of an MP,
0:57:13 > 0:57:16in her role as chaplain to the Speaker of Commons.
0:57:16 > 0:57:23She has been a towering presence, morally, spiritually, humanely.
0:57:23 > 0:57:26And Rose also tells me about a girlhood dream
0:57:26 > 0:57:29that led to her life of religious service.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32I was so excited that I started saying,
0:57:32 > 0:57:34"Thank the Lord! Praise the Lord!"