:00:00. > :00:00.Hello, it is May, we are on the Mound in Edinburgh.
:00:00. > :00:30.It must be the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
:00:31. > :00:35.It is an historic Assembly this year and it all kicked off yesterday.
:00:36. > :00:39.For the first time ever, the Archbishop of Canterbury
:00:40. > :00:46.We have welcomed an archbishop before as a guest speaker.
:00:47. > :00:51.Now with the new agreement in place between the Church of Scotland
:00:52. > :00:52.and Church of England, they are working
:00:53. > :01:00.The retiring Moderator took part in Lambeth
:01:01. > :01:03.A report on what Justin Welby says next Sunday.
:01:04. > :01:05.Tonight, we will be reporting on yesterday's debates
:01:06. > :01:09.and previewing what is coming up this week.
:01:10. > :01:12.A new report on the people who are no longer in church
:01:13. > :01:17.People spoke about having questions they needed to ask,
:01:18. > :01:24.doubts they needed to explore, but not finding an environment
:01:25. > :01:30.in the congregation where they could really do that.
:01:31. > :01:33.And a look at the work of one small part of Cross-reach, the Church's
:01:34. > :01:35.social welfare department, which is one of the biggest
:01:36. > :01:37.providers of social care in Scotland.
:01:38. > :01:39.It has grown tenfold and has been tremendous.
:01:40. > :01:44.We have seen huge differences in people.
:01:45. > :01:47.From the outset of formal business, contemporary issues loomed large,
:01:48. > :01:50.none more so than the refugee crisis, to which according
:01:51. > :01:53.to the Council of Assembly report, the response from individuals and
:01:54. > :02:02.Others have set out on journeys across Europe fuelled by despair.
:02:03. > :02:05.They have been driven from their homes.
:02:06. > :02:17.Sometimes even well-planned budgets take second place to human need.
:02:18. > :02:21.Aware of the plight of millions, the Council established a refugee
:02:22. > :02:24.project and through generous partnering by some councils has
:02:25. > :02:33.sought to enable the Church to take a leading role amongst faith groups
:02:34. > :02:36.in Scotland as our nation responds to this continent-wide challenge.
:02:37. > :02:39.We were given exclusive access to an English-language class
:02:40. > :02:41.for Syrian new Scots families who arrived just
:02:42. > :02:45.It's organised by the Aberdeenshire Partner Refugee Group,
:02:46. > :02:47.of which Aberdeen Mosque and a couple of Church of Scotland
:02:48. > :03:01.Today we have a film crew here, so we will say welcome.
:03:02. > :03:03.As a Christian, I have been very aware of the plight
:03:04. > :03:22.I took the opportunity to get involved through the Aberdeenshire
:03:23. > :03:24.Refugee Partner Group to represent the Presbytery of Gordon.
:03:25. > :03:27.I cannot describe in words how delighted I was from people who came
:03:28. > :03:35.My congregation have since been involved in working to welcome
:03:36. > :03:43.Everything from preparing welcome packs and welcome cards
:03:44. > :03:45.by our families, so that every family coming into their home felt
:03:46. > :03:56.I like living in Scotland, but, I don't like the weather.
:03:57. > :03:58.As they were arriving early in the year and the temperatures
:03:59. > :04:00.were perhaps not what they were used to.
:04:01. > :04:18.It is a transition through language but also through culture.
:04:19. > :04:24.A very different experience from many of our other new Scots
:04:25. > :04:27.new Scots in the country, who have come from Eastern
:04:28. > :04:34.where they have had a connection with a northern European culture.
:04:35. > :04:37.But the difference of coming from an Arabic speaking culture
:04:38. > :04:41.to the north-east of Scotland is really quite dramatic.
:04:42. > :04:50.We've also been raising funds to enable them as a group
:04:51. > :04:56.to be able to go and see other parts of Scotland.
:04:57. > :05:00.Yes, of course I do miss home so much.
:05:01. > :05:05.I do miss my house, my street where I have grown up.
:05:06. > :05:07.I miss everything there, even though I feel now this country
:05:08. > :05:14.The families that have come to Aberdeenshire have come
:05:15. > :05:19.from settlements bordering around Syria.
:05:20. > :05:21.They have been resettled through the Syrian VPR process
:05:22. > :05:24.because they have a particular vulnerability.
:05:25. > :05:26.Families have been split up, with some of them
:05:27. > :05:32.We do have from our immediate family three sons living in Lebanon,
:05:33. > :05:39.one daughter is still in Aleppo, and another daughter in Turkey.
:05:40. > :05:46.And we came here with only one child.
:05:47. > :05:57.Because of the situation in Syria, plus I do have special needs son,
:05:58. > :06:02.In Lebanon there was no care for him but on the other hand,
:06:03. > :06:06.in Scotland, he is getting lots of care and attention.
:06:07. > :06:09.That vulnerability can include a number of things from medical
:06:10. > :06:17.Some of our families we have fought with terminal illnesses and others
:06:18. > :06:23.have been victims of violence or even torture in some cases.
:06:24. > :06:31.In the past, we were scared when we were in Syria.
:06:32. > :06:33.During the war we were afraid of getting killed, bombed,
:06:34. > :06:45.They are having a child, a son living in the United Arab
:06:46. > :06:47.Emirates and he is ill with a disease, haemophilia,
:06:48. > :06:50.and they feel like the regulation here does not allow them
:06:51. > :07:06.Even for myself, I am not allowed to go to the United Arab Emirates
:07:07. > :07:17.to see him or to Lebanon to meet him there.
:07:18. > :07:22.Her daughter's son is ill, they miss each other so much
:07:23. > :07:25.so she wonders if there is any way she can bring her daughter here.
:07:26. > :07:33.The need for family is more acute when facing serious illness.
:07:34. > :07:38.My ultimate hope, one of them at least, is to come
:07:39. > :07:43.here because of my critical medical situation, because being elderly
:07:44. > :07:46.here, I would like them all to be here, or if not all,
:07:47. > :07:52.at least one of my sons to be here to help me.
:07:53. > :07:59.How do they access our health systems, if somebody is ill at home
:08:00. > :08:02.at two o'clock in the morning, how can they phone NHS 24
:08:03. > :08:05.Some of the basic things we take for granted are incredibly difficult
:08:06. > :08:10.They are very capable people, resilient people, but they just
:08:11. > :08:13.need our support to overcome the barriers associated
:08:14. > :08:24.Indeed, we did miss our beloved country and the soil of our country
:08:25. > :08:37.is so precious, so we miss it so much.
:08:38. > :08:40.It is a full house at the General Assembly and it
:08:41. > :08:44.certainly does not seem like a church in decline,
:08:45. > :08:46.yet we continuously read press reports of falling
:08:47. > :08:49.So what happens to people who no longer go to church?
:08:50. > :08:54.Tomorrow sees the launch of this book, the Invisible Church,
:08:55. > :08:59.the relaunch actually - the first edition sold out.
:09:00. > :09:02.It is the result of four years' work by Steve Aisthorpe.
:09:03. > :09:05.After spending years abroad in mission he came home and noticed
:09:06. > :09:07.that a lot of his friends were no longer in church,
:09:08. > :09:15.despite the fact that they lived locally.
:09:16. > :09:22.So he set about some serious research asking - why?
:09:23. > :09:25.So yes, it was here, Easter 2007, our congregation gathered together
:09:26. > :09:27.for Easter Sunday morning as they had done for
:09:28. > :09:31.What happened on a Sunday morning did not seem to be inspiring
:09:32. > :09:33.and equipping them for living as Christians in the rest
:09:34. > :09:36.of the week, so one person spoke about how they were prayed
:09:37. > :09:38.for annually in their congregation, because they were involved
:09:39. > :09:46.But how they actually spent most of their week teaching children,
:09:47. > :09:48.not children of church families, just all of the children
:09:49. > :10:00.from the community, and yet the church had never,
:10:01. > :10:05.had never really got behind them in that.
:10:06. > :10:08.What we now know through the research we've been
:10:09. > :10:11.doing is many of those people, about two thirds,
:10:12. > :10:13.would say their faith is still really important to them.
:10:14. > :10:15.So yes they've drifted away from the congregation.
:10:16. > :10:17.They've not drifted away from the Christian faith.
:10:18. > :10:24.Dave Foster was an elder and regular Sunday attender,
:10:25. > :10:27.but working abroad in oil and gas showed him there were other ways
:10:28. > :10:32.I think today the Church seems to have largely settled down
:10:33. > :10:37.and a lot of the activities, although they are very good,
:10:38. > :10:43.focus inward on running quite a refined operation.
:10:44. > :10:54.Whereas in the Bible, there was a big outward thrust.
:10:55. > :10:57.People read the Bible and look at the churches and say, these
:10:58. > :11:08.I see in the Bible a revolutionary people who took the message
:11:09. > :11:11.and truth about Jesus and his life right across the Roman Empire
:11:12. > :11:14.within decades, and they were just ordinary people that largely met
:11:15. > :11:20.in homes, breaking bread together, praying together.
:11:21. > :11:28.Colin Wilson runs a website, Christians Together,
:11:29. > :11:32.and is a founder member of a coffee shop that is a point of contact
:11:33. > :11:50.Colin has noticed what Steve says in his book -
:11:51. > :11:52.people who don't fit in as conventional couples can
:11:53. > :11:56.We have hosted what we call house groups, house churches.
:11:57. > :12:00.In fact, for several of these, the group members comprised mainly
:12:01. > :12:03.of women who either had no husband or had spouses
:12:04. > :12:15.If you can imagine you are a believing wife
:12:16. > :12:17.with an unbelieving husband, they may not want to leave
:12:18. > :12:25.They may want to stay at home at the weekend but then maybe meet
:12:26. > :12:36.I sense the house group thing, it helped me to realise Christian
:12:37. > :12:38.faith is seven days a week, and not just Sunday morning
:12:39. > :12:41.Steve's report also tackles the feelings
:12:42. > :12:46.What often starts that journey is to do with doubts and questions.
:12:47. > :12:51.We all have doubts and questions at different times.
:12:52. > :12:54.People spoke about having questions they needed to ask,
:12:55. > :12:59.doubts they needed to explore, but not finding an environment
:13:00. > :13:02.in the congregation where they really could do that.
:13:03. > :13:09.About 90% of people, just over 90%, said nobody had followed them up
:13:10. > :13:12.from the church, so after they finally disengaged,
:13:13. > :13:13.stopped attending the local congregation, nobody had
:13:14. > :13:27.I think that was a cause of disappointment for some people.
:13:28. > :13:29.The church likes to do things by consensus,
:13:30. > :13:31.so it can take time, sometimes years,
:13:32. > :13:36.For instance, it seems to have been talking about same-sex
:13:37. > :13:43.It is seven years since the question of ministers in same-sex
:13:44. > :13:49.Last year the Kirk agreed to allow congregations to call ministers
:13:50. > :13:55.The Scottish Government last year introduced same-sex marriage.
:13:56. > :13:57.So the Church has happened to consider the question
:13:58. > :14:03.This has been discussed by presbyteries across the country.
:14:04. > :14:06.And their decision in favour, by a narrow majority,
:14:07. > :14:09.was brought to Assembly for final ratification.
:14:10. > :14:17.There is not a single positive reference to homosexual acts
:14:18. > :14:22.in the entire Bible and the teaching is clear that human sexual
:14:23. > :14:26.relationships are to be between one man and one woman in marriage.
:14:27. > :14:28.There are literally thousands of members and adherents who have
:14:29. > :14:33.left the Church of Scotland over this matter.
:14:34. > :14:35.Sometimes the members and adherents are virtually
:14:36. > :14:45.And it has been particularly damaging in the Highlands
:14:46. > :14:52.and Islands where I serve as a minister.
:14:53. > :14:55.And not just those congregations which have divided or whatever,
:14:56. > :14:59.even in my own congregation, about 40 people have left to join
:15:00. > :15:01.the Free Church because they cannot understand why the General Assembly
:15:02. > :15:03.of the Church of Scotland would act contrary to
:15:04. > :15:17.It has damaged our ecumenical relationships.
:15:18. > :15:21.It is a matter of great sadness to me that for the first time,
:15:22. > :15:29.the Moderator of the Presbyterians church in Ireland is not at this
:15:30. > :15:32.Assembly, because his Assembly decided that that was the only
:15:33. > :15:35.action to take in response to the decision of last year.
:15:36. > :15:45.We are not changing the position of the church on who may be married
:15:46. > :15:52.It seems to be the case that our position is we do not
:15:53. > :15:57.recognise same-sex marriage, unless you happen to be a minister.
:15:58. > :16:03.This has been a slippery slope in the church from 2009,
:16:04. > :16:04.when it was the situation of one minister.
:16:05. > :16:06.And then it was those in civil partnerships.
:16:07. > :16:15.And we have already had indication that the theological forum may bring
:16:16. > :16:19.something next year to take the matter further.
:16:20. > :16:22.I would urge the Assembly to stop the matter here, before we travel
:16:23. > :16:42.The General Assembly the church has debated not just this matter, but
:16:43. > :16:47.this over Chur many times. Professor McGowan has helpfully given us an
:16:48. > :16:51.overview of those arguments this morning, but presbyteries have also
:16:52. > :16:56.spoken and given their views, and members have had chance to debate
:16:57. > :17:00.this on many occasions. I would hope therefore, Moderator, that the
:17:01. > :17:07.assembly might this morning move to a vote quickly without rehearsing
:17:08. > :17:11.the same old arguments again. The Christian faith is based on Jesus
:17:12. > :17:21.Christ. Jesus Christ, the incarnate son of God. Jesus Christ endorsed
:17:22. > :17:25.the old Testament teachings, including clear statements about
:17:26. > :17:29.homosexuality. I'm sure those have all been debated before so I don't
:17:30. > :17:34.propose to take the assembly's time repeating them. What I do want to
:17:35. > :17:41.say is this. Anyone who votes in favour of homosexuality is, in
:17:42. > :17:43.effect, voting against Jesus Christ. A vote against Jesus Christ is
:17:44. > :17:51.incompatible with the Christian faith. I believe a number of people
:17:52. > :17:55.were mistaken in the way they voted at the previous assembly. Saint
:17:56. > :18:01.Peter denied Jesus Christ. He was forgiven, because he recognised his
:18:02. > :18:07.error. We have time to do the same. I believe that anyone who has
:18:08. > :18:12.previously voted in favour of this should reconsider. There's an
:18:13. > :18:17.opportunity today to at least make a statement in favour of the Bible's
:18:18. > :18:22.teaching. My message to this assembly this morning is to vote for
:18:23. > :18:27.Jesus Christ, and vote against this resolution. Thank you. May I remind
:18:28. > :18:34.the assembly that this over Chur is yet a further step in that agreement
:18:35. > :18:36.to disagree. It does not, at this point calling question our
:18:37. > :18:42.understanding of Christian marriage. It allows us to allow congregations
:18:43. > :18:46.where they are clearly minded to take a decision that they feel is
:18:47. > :18:50.right. We allow people to descend from what is still the view of the
:18:51. > :18:56.church. What we have been discussing, as a church, is whether
:18:57. > :19:01.it is possible for us, even in some small degree, to expand our
:19:02. > :19:06.understanding of who and under what circumstances we might ordain to the
:19:07. > :19:11.Ministry of sacrament. We have come to a conclusion after long and hard
:19:12. > :19:16.discussions that we disagree and agree to disagree and make room for
:19:17. > :19:21.liberty of opinion to congregations that all of us do not accept. I
:19:22. > :19:25.would hope that we would put an end to this stage of the debate. And I
:19:26. > :19:29.hope we would tidy up what we fail to tidy up last year and pass this
:19:30. > :19:37.over Chur which has been approved by a majority of presbyteries. I hope
:19:38. > :19:42.we can move on to other subjects. People will walk out of their doors
:19:43. > :19:47.and will be jumping with joy and others will be angry and frustrated.
:19:48. > :19:51.I just ask that when we walk out of those doors, we work together. We
:19:52. > :19:56.have to work together as a body in Christ and we have to get on. When
:19:57. > :20:02.we come to the boat, before we actually vote, I would ask the
:20:03. > :20:06.committee to dismiss from your mind what seems to be some serious
:20:07. > :20:13.emotional arguments that are being employed. Emotional guns are being
:20:14. > :20:18.held to the head in this vote. Reference has been made to members
:20:19. > :20:24.and ministers and congregations that have left the church over this. Then
:20:25. > :20:27.it has been mentioned after that we will lose more again if we go down a
:20:28. > :20:35.certain route with regard to this boat. We have been spoken of as
:20:36. > :20:43.possibly voting against Christ if we vote in favour of this motion. That
:20:44. > :20:48.is no help to anybody. And it does no good in the eyes of the church to
:20:49. > :20:53.the others around the world. It does no help to the men, sisters, women
:20:54. > :20:57.and brothers who wrestle with issues regard to their sexuality. There is
:20:58. > :21:01.no grace in that whatsoever and this is the first time I have ever spoken
:21:02. > :21:04.at an assembly and I am profoundly disturbed that some of the language
:21:05. > :21:09.that has been used and I would ask you to dismiss that and reflectively
:21:10. > :21:24.exercise your vote when it comes to it. Number 143999. Number two
:21:25. > :21:30.against. 215. The over Chur is carried. -- the over Chur. That
:21:31. > :21:34.debate was not about people marrying the same sex, it was about
:21:35. > :21:37.appointing ministers who have had a civil marriage according to the law
:21:38. > :21:42.of the land. What the Church believes about marriage we will hear
:21:43. > :21:47.a the assembly next year. Here is a taste of what is to come. What the
:21:48. > :21:56.theological fora might do in the report it brings next year he show
:21:57. > :22:00.the range of current discussions and analogies and the ways in which
:22:01. > :22:08.marriage itself is being absorbed. I will give you an example. The
:22:09. > :22:14.marriage between a person who has a living spouse and the marriage of a
:22:15. > :22:23.person who has a living spouse to someone else is not actually
:22:24. > :22:27.considered a marriage in the Roman Catholic Church. With us, it is.
:22:28. > :22:36.Because we accept that there may be a valid marriage between two people
:22:37. > :22:41.where one of them, or both, have spouses who are still alive. But
:22:42. > :22:47.that simple illustration shows you that already in the Christian
:22:48. > :22:51.communities there are different definitions of marriage. And in the
:22:52. > :22:58.report which we will bring next year, we will explore some of these.
:22:59. > :23:02.Tomorrow the social care Council reports. It employs over 1000
:23:03. > :23:06.members of staff and is one of the largest providers of social care in
:23:07. > :23:14.Scotland and faces a broad section of needs via Cross reach. This is
:23:15. > :23:18.threshold in Glasgow which is a base day centre for caring for people
:23:19. > :23:21.with learning difficulties. A few decades ago people with learning
:23:22. > :23:24.disabilities would have been confined to an institution, but
:23:25. > :23:30.since the last half of the 20th century, the policy has changed and
:23:31. > :23:37.care is now in the community. Susan McGregor manages the care provided.
:23:38. > :23:43.I always felt that I had a heart for some thing I wanted to do and I
:23:44. > :23:47.wanted to do something for the church and I did not just want to be
:23:48. > :23:55.a minister or anything like that, and I felt I was drawn to this type
:23:56. > :24:00.of work. How are you? All right? I had never worked with people with
:24:01. > :24:04.learning disabilities before, so my biggest fear was what if they don't
:24:05. > :24:09.like me, maybe everything hinges on that I have to do things right for
:24:10. > :24:13.them because it is their life and I just felt when I came into this kind
:24:14. > :24:21.of work that it was the right thing to do. There are times when it's
:24:22. > :24:27.really difficult. There are times when you face really difficult, hard
:24:28. > :24:32.times with people. You lose people that you become attached to. And you
:24:33. > :24:41.couldn't do this if it wasn't a vocation. It has to be a vocation.
:24:42. > :24:47.The care provided here is entirely focused on giving service users
:24:48. > :24:51.independence and choice. Rather than what happened in the past when the
:24:52. > :24:55.service providers would have decided what was on offer. And it works.
:24:56. > :25:01.Giving people choice gives them confidence to be more independent.
:25:02. > :25:07.This service changes everyday. It started that we had a very small
:25:08. > :25:13.service but since the introduction of the support, the groups and
:25:14. > :25:18.community groups in the day service has grown tenfold. And it has been
:25:19. > :25:24.tremendous because we see huge differences in people. People are
:25:25. > :25:29.much more confident at using public services and more confident in who
:25:30. > :25:34.they are as people that they have a in society. Which is really
:25:35. > :25:38.important, because before they would have been in the background, but now
:25:39. > :25:43.they have a voice and that has been one of the biggest changes is that
:25:44. > :25:47.people have a voice and they feel they have a right to be here and
:25:48. > :25:51.have something to say. Part of going out into the community and going
:25:52. > :25:55.into the group is that there are people who lose their us passes and
:25:56. > :26:01.then they go to football and different places, and that has been
:26:02. > :26:05.really great, because for people who never used a bus pass, they have
:26:06. > :26:18.gone home and showing people that they can do it, which is tremendous.
:26:19. > :26:21.The care provided here is entirely focused on giving service users
:26:22. > :26:25.independence and choice. Rather than what happened in the past when the
:26:26. > :26:29.service providers would have decided what was on offer. And it works.
:26:30. > :26:34.Giving people choice gives them confidence to be more independent.
:26:35. > :26:38.We had to think about how we might support people with a smaller
:26:39. > :26:46.budget, so we looked at being able to give people the basic needs and
:26:47. > :26:51.social needs, and how we might do that so the social groups, the bus
:26:52. > :26:55.trips and variety of ways of giving that. Although the hours were less
:26:56. > :26:58.on the budget was less, the focus was more on what we provided to
:26:59. > :27:03.people and the outcomes could achieve through the use of those
:27:04. > :27:09.hours. The service users seem happy with the changes. I enjoy coming
:27:10. > :27:15.here. You meet a lot of new faces. All the staff are brilliant. I have
:27:16. > :27:28.done a lot of charity work and volunteering. I do the healthy
:27:29. > :27:33.eating group. I am more independent now and I'm doing a lot more things
:27:34. > :27:37.for myself now. But of course, the cuts have meant less money to pay
:27:38. > :27:42.staff salaries. How has the team reacted? Because we are part of a
:27:43. > :27:47.Christian group, it is fantastic and everybody apart from one or two
:27:48. > :27:50.people losing their jobs, everybody dropped their hours pro rata so
:27:51. > :27:56.nobody had to make the choice and it was such a humbling experience and
:27:57. > :28:00.the tremendous team and I'm very fortunate to work with such a great
:28:01. > :28:04.team. I'm extremely proud of the start but there are the limits to
:28:05. > :28:08.how they can make sacrifices and what we want to do is work
:28:09. > :28:12.cooperatively and flexibly with local authorities to see if we can
:28:13. > :28:17.find joint solutions to the funding crisis. We are aware that local
:28:18. > :28:22.authorities face funding issues and we believe as a voluntary
:28:23. > :28:25.organisation we have the flexibility and creativity and imagination to
:28:26. > :28:31.come up with solutions that will serve the people of Scotland who
:28:32. > :28:38.need our services. Nothing is easy. So, we'll harmony if not unity
:28:39. > :28:40.maintain over the weekend? Join us next week and find out -- we'll
:28:41. > :28:42.harmony. The animals are in
:28:43. > :28:44.for the long haul, as the Highlands are on
:28:45. > :28:52.the cusp of winter. for a live debate tackling the
:28:53. > :28:52.EU Referendum issues You know, the last time there was
:28:53. > :28:55.a public vote on Europe, for a live debate tackling the
:28:56. > :29:04.EU Referendum issues that will have the biggest effect
:29:05. > :29:08.on your future.