0:00:02 > 0:00:04The single
0:00:04 > 0:00:06clenched fist...
0:00:08 > 0:00:10..lifted and ready.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15Or the open asking hand...
0:00:17 > 0:00:19..held out and waiting.
0:00:21 > 0:00:22Choose.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26For we meet by one or the other.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30These words by the American poet Carl Sandburg
0:00:30 > 0:00:33were spoken at the Church of Scotland's General Assembly,
0:00:33 > 0:00:35the morning after the Manchester bombing.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39The speaker said, "In this harsh, judgmental world,
0:00:39 > 0:00:41"there are clenched fists all around."
0:01:03 > 0:01:07Richard Frazer was presenting the Church And Society Council's report,
0:01:07 > 0:01:09which covers a broad span of interests
0:01:09 > 0:01:11from politics to gender and climate
0:01:11 > 0:01:15to justice. From asylum seekers and refugees to welfare.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18"Essential to all of these," he said, "is how we treat each other."
0:01:20 > 0:01:23And that sentiment by Sandburg contrasts
0:01:23 > 0:01:26what the world looks like to so many people today,
0:01:26 > 0:01:29with the world that Christ would like it to be.
0:01:31 > 0:01:36In our report, the term surveillance from the cross
0:01:36 > 0:01:37might have baffled a few of us,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40and it certainly baffled me when I first read it.
0:01:42 > 0:01:48But in the harsh world in which we live, the big data world,
0:01:48 > 0:01:50the world of random terrorism...
0:01:51 > 0:01:54..where people's online activity follows them forever
0:01:54 > 0:01:58and you cannot have your past misdemeanours forgiven.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02Where keyboard warriors lash out, and there's no mercy.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Where people's anger and alienation
0:02:07 > 0:02:10is expressed in the killing of children.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13There are clenched fists all around us.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17And surveillance from the cross means
0:02:17 > 0:02:21looking out on the world with Christ's hands...
0:02:23 > 0:02:28..his open hands stretched out on the cross,
0:02:28 > 0:02:33forgiving a common criminal who was crucified beside him.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37The asking hand held out and waiting.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42And that is Christ's way.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45That is the Church's way.
0:02:46 > 0:02:47That is our way.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51A passionate debate ensued.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53We'll give you a flavour of that later.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Before that, the Assembly considered
0:02:55 > 0:02:58how to mark the centenary of the Balfour Declaration,
0:02:58 > 0:03:03a paragraph in a letter sent in 1917 by Church of Scotland elder
0:03:03 > 0:03:05and Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour
0:03:05 > 0:03:08to Lord Rothschild, a leading Zionist.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12He wrote, "His Majesty's government views with favour
0:03:12 > 0:03:16"the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19"It has been clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may
0:03:19 > 0:03:23"prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish
0:03:23 > 0:03:25"communities in Palestine."
0:03:26 > 0:03:30The 1918 General Assembly supported that declaration.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34Today, a century on, the council's report is sobering.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39"The current situation between Israel and the Palestinian people
0:03:39 > 0:03:43"is unsustainable, not only for the disenfranchised Palestinians
0:03:43 > 0:03:48"but for the long-term security of Israel as a nation state."
0:03:48 > 0:03:51So how to mark the Balfour centenary?
0:03:51 > 0:03:54Moderator, following our practice in the World Mission Council of
0:03:54 > 0:03:56attentive accompaniment,
0:03:56 > 0:04:01I have sat in a Palestinian refugee camp with a family of a teenage boy
0:04:01 > 0:04:03shot dead by Israeli soldiers.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06And I have sat with the Jewish parents
0:04:06 > 0:04:08of an Israeli soldier who lost his
0:04:08 > 0:04:09life in the conflict.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Their grief was the same.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16I have joined the crush and shared the humiliation
0:04:16 > 0:04:19of Palestinians trying to get through the Bethlehem check point
0:04:19 > 0:04:21just to go to work.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25They just do what they have to do because they see no other way.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29I've shared a conversation with a Jewish settler
0:04:29 > 0:04:30who lives in a settlement,
0:04:30 > 0:04:32not for ideological reasons,
0:04:32 > 0:04:35but because it meant he could afford a home for his young family.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38And when I asked him if he thought the current situation was just,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42and was it really tenable and sustainable for the future,
0:04:42 > 0:04:46and would he want his children to grow up behind walls?
0:04:46 > 0:04:48He said, "No..."
0:04:49 > 0:04:52"..but I cannot see any other way at the moment."
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Moderator, it is the responsibility of all of us who care...
0:04:58 > 0:05:02..to help everyone to look for other ways.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Ways of building a just peace that is for all.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08"A just peace for all."
0:05:08 > 0:05:09Some commissioners wanted more.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12I am working with the refugees,
0:05:12 > 0:05:17and I would like to ask if it is possible
0:05:17 > 0:05:20for the Church of Scotland to take a stand on the settlements,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23so that probably we can start thinking
0:05:23 > 0:05:26of returning some of the refugees.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29As, after 69 years of being refugees,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32I think we should take them into consideration
0:05:32 > 0:05:35and start to think of solutions.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40I want the Assembly to be clear what the misery of Palestinian people
0:05:40 > 0:05:43which flows from the Balfour Declaration is.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46The question is always - who pays the price?
0:05:46 > 0:05:50And any comment which seeks to resolve the conflict
0:05:50 > 0:05:56which does not recognise the scale of Palestinian refugee problems
0:05:56 > 0:05:58doesn't begin to understand.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Moderator, I understand that it's possible
0:06:01 > 0:06:04that you may go to Israel and the occupied
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Palestinian territories next year.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10If you do, I plead with you to get up at four in the morning
0:06:10 > 0:06:15and go to check point 330 and stand and watch 7,000 -
0:06:15 > 0:06:18that's the population of your parish, Moderator -
0:06:18 > 0:06:237,000 Palestinian men who have to get up at two o'clock every morning
0:06:23 > 0:06:27in order to be forced through tiny metal cages
0:06:27 > 0:06:31to walk the huge, long distance, one hour, two hours,
0:06:31 > 0:06:33four hours it often takes,
0:06:33 > 0:06:36and you've no way out. If you can't breathe, that's your problem.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38If you can't get to the toilet, that's your problem.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40And at the end of it, you're meeting the IDF,
0:06:40 > 0:06:42and you've no idea what reception you'll get.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44And if you're late for work,
0:06:44 > 0:06:48or if you don't get to work the next day, you lose your job.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51I was in Israel and Palestine with 28 other members
0:06:51 > 0:06:54of the Church of Scotland,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57and we were fortunate enough to meet Naim Ateek,
0:06:57 > 0:07:00the doyenne of Palestinian theology.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02And he said to us,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05"I challenge the Church of Scotland
0:07:05 > 0:07:09"not to conceal the misery of the Palestinian people
0:07:09 > 0:07:12in the discussion of the Balfour Declaration."
0:07:13 > 0:07:17I pray every day, as everybody in this General Assembly does,
0:07:17 > 0:07:19that God's will will be done,
0:07:19 > 0:07:22and I believe that God's will WILL be done.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Some day, that wall will fall.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30Some day, Jew and Christian and Muslim
0:07:30 > 0:07:32will be able to sing songs together.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35Some day, Jewish children,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37Israeli children and Palestinian children
0:07:37 > 0:07:40will be able to play games together.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43Some day, young people will fall in love.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45Some people, old people and young people,
0:07:45 > 0:07:48will see visions and dream dreams.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Some day, when that day comes, the scripture will be fulfilled.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57That the wilderness, that wildnerness,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01the wilderness and the solitary place will be glad for them.
0:08:01 > 0:08:07The desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10and when that great day comes, Moderator,
0:08:10 > 0:08:15the sun of righteousness will rise and shine with brilliance.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Not so much on a promised land...
0:08:22 > 0:08:24..but on a land of promise.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28The Assembly eventually agreed that,
0:08:28 > 0:08:31"Commemorations be undertaken with integrity,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34"recognising the enormous cost to the Palestinian people
0:08:34 > 0:08:38"of the failure to fulfil the promise of the declaration.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40"Infringements of international law,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43"including the expansion of illegal settlements,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46"were condemned rather than deplored."
0:08:46 > 0:08:48But that wasn't enough for some.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51To deplore is not enough.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55And further pressure is needed now and worldwide
0:08:55 > 0:08:57from all who are concerned.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01Moderator, economics matter.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04We live in a global community.
0:09:06 > 0:09:11And so where words fail, economic factors can make a difference,
0:09:11 > 0:09:14as indeed we know they did,
0:09:14 > 0:09:18as a challenge to the apartheid regime in South Africa.
0:09:20 > 0:09:26One such tool for the creation of economic pressure is BDS.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement
0:09:29 > 0:09:32which works to end international support
0:09:32 > 0:09:38for Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories
0:09:38 > 0:09:42and pressure Israel to comply with international law.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46Apartheid wasn't changed by economic pressure.
0:09:48 > 0:09:49It came from within.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52I was a junior clerk
0:09:52 > 0:09:55in the office of President de Klerk at that time,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57not being in the ministry.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01When he called us together, beginning of 1990, and he said,
0:10:01 > 0:10:05"Gentlemen and ladies, fasten your seat belts.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08"I'm going to release Nelson Mandela.
0:10:08 > 0:10:13"Not because of economic sanctions, not because of pressure,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15"but because it's the right thing to do."
0:10:17 > 0:10:20The call for boycott and sanctions was not, in the end,
0:10:20 > 0:10:22supported by the assembly.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25Furthermore, an extra new clause was inserted,
0:10:25 > 0:10:30expressing, "Deep concern in regard to Hamas's continual declaration
0:10:30 > 0:10:33"that Israel does not have a right to exist".
0:10:44 > 0:10:47The Church of Scotland has a long-established reputation
0:10:47 > 0:10:49for international concern.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51In the World Mission Debate,
0:10:51 > 0:10:55former moderator John Chalmers spoke of the world's youngest country,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57South Sudan. The Church of Scotland
0:10:57 > 0:11:03is working with the Presbyterian Church there to train peacemakers.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06The real tragedy is that not enough is being done
0:11:06 > 0:11:08by the international community.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11This is a forgotten place and a forgotten war
0:11:11 > 0:11:14and a forgotten nation.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Our own government, both Scottish and United Kingdom,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19is barely involved.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24So we have to step up our advocacy on behalf of those
0:11:24 > 0:11:27who have no-one advocating for them.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30And as a simple tailpiece,
0:11:30 > 0:11:34you have to know that in this war-torn nation,
0:11:34 > 0:11:37where tribe is pitted against tribe,
0:11:37 > 0:11:43and where the killing fields are as brutal as any in recent history,
0:11:43 > 0:11:49more than 90% of the population would self identify as Christian.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56The church's influence there, therefore, is of huge importance.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03This year's Lord High Commissioner Princess Anne
0:12:03 > 0:12:05has been hosting at Holyroodhouse,
0:12:05 > 0:12:08a mile, a Royal Mile down the road here,
0:12:08 > 0:12:10Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad of Jordan,
0:12:10 > 0:12:15an internationally acclaimed Muslim scholar and inter-faith pioneer.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18He was invited to address the General Assembly.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22Let me start by condemning in the strongest possible terms in my name,
0:12:22 > 0:12:27and in the name of His Majesty King Abdullah II of Jordan,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30these latest terrorist attacks on innocent young people.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34We ourselves have suffered many of these
0:12:34 > 0:12:37and I grieve to see them come to this country.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41We are particularly appalled to see them pretend
0:12:41 > 0:12:43to represent our own religion.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Obviously, they do not.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49His view of the next 25 years was bleak.
0:12:49 > 0:12:54Terrorist propaganda and acts will succeed in making Muslims more hated
0:12:54 > 0:12:56than they currently are by most of the rest of the world,
0:12:56 > 0:13:00and in some places, Muslims will be in internment camps.
0:13:00 > 0:13:05And in others, in concentration camps, like Srebrenica in 1995.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09In some Muslim-majority countries,
0:13:09 > 0:13:12terrorism will succeed in intimidating minorities
0:13:12 > 0:13:14so that mass migrations
0:13:14 > 0:13:18will eventually separate religious populations,
0:13:18 > 0:13:21just as they did in Greece and Turkey after World War I,
0:13:21 > 0:13:23or in India, after partition.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Religiously speaking,
0:13:26 > 0:13:29we will, of course, continue to have a growth of radical fundamentalism
0:13:29 > 0:13:34in Islam, but we will also have an Islamisation of radicals,
0:13:34 > 0:13:37so that angry young people with little faith
0:13:37 > 0:13:39will use Islam as an outlet for their anger.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43In addition to an Islamisation of criminals...
0:13:45 > 0:13:48the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the founder of Isis,
0:13:48 > 0:13:49was such a criminal,
0:13:49 > 0:13:52and the Islamisation of lunatics, such as in Boko Haram.
0:13:53 > 0:13:58And finally, Islamisation of really ignorant and gullible people,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01such as we see in most of the lone wolf terrorists here in the West.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06Now, if all this sounds too bad to be true, unfortunately, it isn't.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10It is a mordant but serious warning,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13and, in fact, much of its substance is to be found in Islamic
0:14:13 > 0:14:16latter-day prophecy literature.
0:14:16 > 0:14:17So what to do?
0:14:19 > 0:14:22Jesus Christ said, "Woe to the world because of traps.
0:14:22 > 0:14:24"For traps must come.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27"But woe to that man by whom the trap comes."
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Now, we will certainly agree across religious lines
0:14:31 > 0:14:36that the first thing to do is keep our faith, prayers and principles,
0:14:36 > 0:14:41and not be buffeted by the vogue of the day, no matter what the cost.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45But even the fanatics believe this.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48And in fact, they take pride in it, quite literally.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52So, how can the dangers of fundamentalism be avoided
0:14:52 > 0:14:55whilst avoiding traps?
0:14:55 > 0:14:57The best way, traditionally,
0:14:57 > 0:15:03to broaden one's horizons was to do so literally, ie, through travel,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05with its dangers, difficulties,
0:15:05 > 0:15:10wonders and exposure to different peoples and ways.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13God says in the Koran, "Have they not travelled in the land
0:15:13 > 0:15:16"so that they may have hearts with which to comprehend?
0:15:16 > 0:15:18"Or eyes with which to hear?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21"Indeed, it is not the eyes that turn blind,
0:15:21 > 0:15:24"but it is the hearts that turn blind within the breasts."
0:15:26 > 0:15:29Now, however, since it is "ban voyage" for Muslims,
0:15:29 > 0:15:31and travel will scarcely be feasible,
0:15:31 > 0:15:33there remains only one option.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37And it is this. That people should put down their mobile phones
0:15:37 > 0:15:40and turn off the net and the TV
0:15:40 > 0:15:44and spend an hour every day in silent, solitary
0:15:44 > 0:15:45systematic reading.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Indeed, the very first word revealed of the Koran was "read".
0:15:51 > 0:15:53And in fact, though you would not know it now
0:15:53 > 0:15:54to look at Muslims today,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56traditional Islamic civilisation,
0:15:56 > 0:16:01having no clergy or clerical institutions or castes as such,
0:16:01 > 0:16:03was based entirely on the written word.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06First, God's word, the Koran.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Then the Prophet Muhammad's words,
0:16:09 > 0:16:12then all beneficial knowledge.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15And the moderator acknowledged the significance
0:16:15 > 0:16:16of Prince Ghazi's visit.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18Your Royal Highness,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21we are greatly honoured that you should come here and speak.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23You are known to some of us as a scholar
0:16:23 > 0:16:27who has produced the leading study of love in the holy Koran.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30We know that with His Majesty the King Abdullah II,
0:16:30 > 0:16:34you were the agent behind the Oman Statement in 2004,
0:16:34 > 0:16:37that insightful document that set out clearly
0:16:37 > 0:16:40that Islam is founded upon the mercy of God
0:16:40 > 0:16:45and is best exemplified in balance and moderation.
0:16:45 > 0:16:46In 2007,
0:16:46 > 0:16:50you were a leading mover behind the fundamentally important document,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53A Common Word Between Us And You,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56which you addressed to Christian leaders across the world,
0:16:56 > 0:16:58and maintained that Muslims and Christians
0:16:58 > 0:17:03may stand together on the basis of our common commitment
0:17:03 > 0:17:06to love God and love our neighbour.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11The Church of Scotland has a long-standing commitment
0:17:11 > 0:17:12to pay its employees
0:17:12 > 0:17:16the Scottish living wage, now £8.45 an hour.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19But with the best will in the world, it can't afford it.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23The Kirk employs 2,000 people in Crossreach,
0:17:23 > 0:17:25its social care services provider,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28with programmes and premises right across Scotland.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31These services are mainly paid for by local authorities,
0:17:31 > 0:17:34but they're not paying enough,
0:17:34 > 0:17:37as the Social Care Council Convener Bill Steele explained.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41In reporting on this matter at the Assembly last year,
0:17:41 > 0:17:44we were asked to work with the Council Assembly
0:17:44 > 0:17:46to enable payment of the living wage
0:17:46 > 0:17:49to all employees as soon as possible.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51Our report covers this matter in detail
0:17:51 > 0:17:53and makes clear that the church
0:17:53 > 0:17:54through the Council of Assembly
0:17:54 > 0:17:57has made additional financial contributions
0:17:57 > 0:18:02of over £452,000 over the past two years - that is per annum -
0:18:02 > 0:18:04to fund low pay.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07It is with considerable regret, therefore,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10that neither council has access to resources
0:18:10 > 0:18:12to enable the payment of the Scottish living wage
0:18:12 > 0:18:15to all Crossreach employees.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Both councils are committed to the principle
0:18:18 > 0:18:20of paying the Scottish living wage to all employees,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23but unless funding agencies include this
0:18:23 > 0:18:27in their purchasing of the services we provide for them,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29the costs are prohibitive.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42Let's get back to where we started,
0:18:42 > 0:18:45The Church And Society council report.
0:18:45 > 0:18:51We come to see how the new digital technologies are changing politics,
0:18:51 > 0:18:55shaping public opinion in the echo chamber
0:18:55 > 0:18:57that reinforces particular opinions
0:18:57 > 0:19:02rather than inviting us to discourse in the public square.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04It is altering the nature of democracy,
0:19:04 > 0:19:08and we need to remember that we must,
0:19:08 > 0:19:13in an atmosphere that seeks consent, to make room for dissent.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17We restate the view
0:19:17 > 0:19:21that the church is neutral on the issue of Scottish independence.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24We've supported the Constitutional Convention
0:19:24 > 0:19:27in past years, the establishment of a Scottish Parliament,
0:19:27 > 0:19:29but we believe there is a profound difference
0:19:29 > 0:19:31between independence and devolution.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34The General Assembly has never expressed a wish
0:19:34 > 0:19:37to have a position on independence,
0:19:37 > 0:19:39recognising that there are honestly held opinions
0:19:39 > 0:19:42on both sides of the debate,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45and these opinions are held with integrity and with...
0:19:46 > 0:19:49..a desire to see the best for our country.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52And we see no obvious purpose being served by changing this position.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56For the tenth time in 15 years,
0:19:56 > 0:19:58the Assembly received a report on
0:19:58 > 0:20:00migration, asylum seekers and refugees.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03The emphasis this year was on the challenge
0:20:03 > 0:20:05of bringing together asylum seekers
0:20:05 > 0:20:07and refugees and other people.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Commissioners spoke of their individual experiences.
0:20:10 > 0:20:15When these families attended their local secondary school
0:20:15 > 0:20:19through an interpreter, to share something of their experience
0:20:19 > 0:20:20of being refugees...
0:20:21 > 0:20:25..one question that was asked was, "What do you like about Scotland?"
0:20:26 > 0:20:31And the answer that came back from the teenage son was,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34"Here in Scotland, we feel safe."
0:20:34 > 0:20:40My wife and children spend every Wednesday with Syrian refugees.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44I was wondering if there is any possible way
0:20:44 > 0:20:46that we can urge the church...
0:20:47 > 0:20:51..to make an active approach at making funding
0:20:51 > 0:20:55to some extent available for English as a second language
0:20:55 > 0:20:57to those who might want to volunteer...
0:20:58 > 0:21:01..and minister to these beautiful people.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04It is such an extraordinary outpouring of generosity
0:21:04 > 0:21:08on the part of members of the Church of Scotland throughout Scotland...
0:21:09 > 0:21:13..in offering that hand of hospitality and welcome.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19One of the things that is a very practical suggestion
0:21:19 > 0:21:23that is immediately open to any congregation to do
0:21:23 > 0:21:26is if they want to do exactly what you are suggesting,
0:21:26 > 0:21:27that in...
0:21:29 > 0:21:31In association with a local authority,
0:21:31 > 0:21:35it is possible for a congregation to apply for Go For It funding
0:21:35 > 0:21:38to do just the kind of thing that you are suggesting.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40So, Go For It.
0:21:42 > 0:21:43Since being appointed as transition minister
0:21:43 > 0:21:46at Saint Rollox Church of Scotland in Glasgow,
0:21:46 > 0:21:50which is often known as the asylum seekers' church,
0:21:50 > 0:21:55I have had my eyes opened in a new way.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58And in a very uncomfortable and disturbing way,
0:21:58 > 0:22:02to the way in which we as a nation
0:22:02 > 0:22:06treat those who seek asylum in our country.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10I am shocked to discover that within the congregation,
0:22:10 > 0:22:13there is a family of four,
0:22:13 > 0:22:18who, for 18 months have had no income whatsoever
0:22:18 > 0:22:23because their appeal for asylum has been rejected.
0:22:24 > 0:22:29Can you imagine what that is like for a family with two children?
0:22:29 > 0:22:31No income?
0:22:31 > 0:22:34All the implications that means for them?
0:22:36 > 0:22:38And then the debate moved to the politics of health,
0:22:38 > 0:22:40social care and education,
0:22:40 > 0:22:45tackling some of the uncomfortable realities of life in Scotland today.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49The report says we need political policy consensus
0:22:49 > 0:22:51on issues like health care and education.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Is it not better to have a politics of difference,
0:22:55 > 0:22:57debate and divergence
0:22:57 > 0:23:01in order to discover new and better ways of doing this?
0:23:01 > 0:23:07Does consensus not fossilise bad policy in health care and education?
0:23:07 > 0:23:12I think what we don't want to do is find ourselves in a situation
0:23:12 > 0:23:17where health and social care become political footballs.
0:23:17 > 0:23:22I think one of the things that I feel very strongly about is,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25as I said in my speech,
0:23:25 > 0:23:29that consensus also invites the idea of dissent.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32And I think that one of the things that we need to avoid in our society
0:23:32 > 0:23:35is getting into the idea that somehow or other,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38we need to stamp out opposition, we need to stamp out dissent.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41I think consensus is arrived at
0:23:41 > 0:23:44through dissent as well as respectful dialogue.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46I hope you will consult
0:23:46 > 0:23:49with those involved in health care
0:23:49 > 0:23:51and those engaged in education.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53The background to this is
0:23:53 > 0:23:55it's not a long time ago
0:23:55 > 0:24:00when we had enough ministers, enough teachers and enough GPs in Scotland,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03and the country has changed enormously,
0:24:03 > 0:24:08as has our attitude to what it means to be a flourishing Scotland.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10And so we need to consult with others
0:24:10 > 0:24:13who are trying to create appropriate policies
0:24:13 > 0:24:17to make sure we have flourishing communities at the grassroots level.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20I had a conversation with a GP the other day who said to me,
0:24:20 > 0:24:22which I thought was really interesting,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25she feels that, in many respects,
0:24:25 > 0:24:27a lot of the work that is coming her way
0:24:27 > 0:24:32is coming her way because some of the social networks of nurture
0:24:32 > 0:24:34are breaking down in our society.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36And so we need things like counselling services,
0:24:36 > 0:24:38we need things like accompaniment,
0:24:38 > 0:24:42and we need things like our churches to reimagine their role
0:24:42 > 0:24:46as places of nurture and support and community,
0:24:46 > 0:24:47not just for our congregations,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50but for the whole community.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52In last Sunday's programme,
0:24:52 > 0:24:54we previewed the latest stage in the long-running
0:24:54 > 0:24:57same-sex marriage conversation.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59The Theological Forum had tabled a report
0:24:59 > 0:25:02declaring that there is no theological barrier
0:25:02 > 0:25:06to same-sex marriage being conducted in the Church of Scotland.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09In debate here, the convener, Iain Torrance
0:25:09 > 0:25:12said that neither those opposing nor those supporting same-sex marriage
0:25:12 > 0:25:14should look for a knockout blow,
0:25:14 > 0:25:17but the church members should live together.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20One Commissioner's experience illustrated that.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23We are never going to come to an agreement
0:25:23 > 0:25:26on all of these theological matters,
0:25:26 > 0:25:30and simply to keep repeating them and bring God's name into them all
0:25:30 > 0:25:33calls into question my whole calling,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37my whole understanding of God and my witness to Scripture.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40And one of the things I sometimes think
0:25:40 > 0:25:43is that it's hard for people to understand
0:25:43 > 0:25:48how do you navigate this concept of constrained difference?
0:25:48 > 0:25:52Well, at times, I can be quite a simple soul,
0:25:52 > 0:25:55so could I just give you a very simple illustration
0:25:55 > 0:25:57of how constrained difference CAN work?
0:25:59 > 0:26:02I'm sitting up here beside Mike Goss.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04Those of you who know Mike,
0:26:04 > 0:26:05those of you who know me,
0:26:05 > 0:26:09will know that we sit really quite far, theologically.
0:26:09 > 0:26:10Poles apart, some might say.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13In fact, we were sitting together the other day,
0:26:13 > 0:26:16and we were joking that we might actually be
0:26:16 > 0:26:18the embodiment of constrained difference.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22And I'm sitting beside him again today.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25But what some of you don't know is that Mike and I
0:26:25 > 0:26:28were ministers together in Dundee.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31Not only were we ministers together, we were neighbouring ministers.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33We lived on the same street,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37our houses were three doors apart from each other, we worked together,
0:26:37 > 0:26:41we met together, our congregations met and worshipped together.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44And we even socialised together.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46And we remain friends.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49And in time to come, Mike moved away from his charge,
0:26:49 > 0:26:51I moved away from my charge.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54Our charges held, I would say,
0:26:54 > 0:26:58to predominantly our own theological persuasions on either side.
0:26:58 > 0:27:03A few years down the line, Mike's charge, my charge became united,
0:27:03 > 0:27:05and it was a very happy union
0:27:05 > 0:27:08because it was based upon relationships,
0:27:08 > 0:27:12it was based upon understanding the Word of God with difference.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14With difference.
0:27:14 > 0:27:16Mike Goss loves the Lord.
0:27:16 > 0:27:17He serves the Lord.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19He has a ministry for the Lord.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22I would like to claim I have the same.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24This is constrained difference.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28And this is how you navigate these things.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31It is not about saying that what one person believes is wrong
0:27:31 > 0:27:34and the other. It will never get anywhere with that.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39And after what the moderator had correctly predicted
0:27:39 > 0:27:41would be a good and robust debate,
0:27:41 > 0:27:43the forum's recommendation
0:27:43 > 0:27:46was accepted by a majority of commissioners.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00Each morning assembly began with worship, led by the moderator,
0:28:00 > 0:28:04so let's end with one of Derek Browning's reflections
0:28:04 > 0:28:08on how Jesus met with those who felt unworthy and unlovable,
0:28:08 > 0:28:11welcoming them, not with a clenched fist, but with an open hand.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16None so broken, they can't be mended.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19None so wicked, they can't be forgiven.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22None so sick, they can't be healed.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25None so lost, they can't be found.
0:28:25 > 0:28:28None so unable to keep their promises
0:28:28 > 0:28:32that they can't be given another chance.
0:28:32 > 0:28:37None so unclean on the inside that they can't be purified.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41None so narrow-minded that they can't be enlightened.
0:28:41 > 0:28:46None so stuck in their ways that they can't be moved.
0:28:47 > 0:28:52None so hard-hearted that they can't be softened.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56None so invisible that they can't be seen.