:00:06. > :00:11.Gaddafi is on the run, thanks to the firepower and funds that we
:00:11. > :00:16.have given Libya's rebels. Were that many have been better spent
:00:16. > :00:26.here at home? -- would bat money have been better spent here at
:00:26. > :00:34.
:00:34. > :00:39.Good morning, welcome to Sunday Morning Live. He threatened to kill
:00:39. > :00:43.his people so we bombed him out of power. Now other tyrants are
:00:43. > :00:48.looking twitchy. But, with an economic crisis on our own doorstep,
:00:48. > :00:52.should we really be throwing money at toppling dictators? Migration to
:00:52. > :00:57.the UK is up 21%, despite government talk and action to keep
:00:57. > :01:00.numbers down. The politics editor of the New Statesman says, keep
:01:01. > :01:06.them coming. I believe immigrants have helped put the Great into
:01:06. > :01:09.Great Britain and that we now need more immigration, not less.
:01:09. > :01:13.rape charges against Dominique Strauss-Kahn have been dropped. He
:01:13. > :01:17.wants to revive his political career, despite a string of alleged
:01:17. > :01:21.affairs. Sexual peccadilloes don't stop other politicians holding high
:01:21. > :01:25.office. But if a politician is unfaithful to his wife, can he be
:01:25. > :01:28.loyal to this country? By guests this morning are no
:01:28. > :01:32.strangers to a bit of political rough-and-tumble. Colonel Bob
:01:32. > :01:37.Stewart now serves as MP for Beckenham. That he'd let UN forces
:01:37. > :01:40.in Bosnia and once guarded Rudolf Hess. Mehdi Hasan is the senior
:01:40. > :01:45.politics editor of the New Statesman. He likes nothing better
:01:45. > :01:49.than basting politicians. Edwina Curry was a very public figure in
:01:49. > :01:53.the life of Mrs Thatcher and a very private one in the life of John
:01:53. > :02:03.Major. Would like to know what you think this morning. Call in on
:02:03. > :02:14.
:02:14. > :02:20.So, Gaddafi is gone. Job well done? He was, after all, a dictator who
:02:20. > :02:23.killed his own people and alleys. But who next? Dictators that run
:02:23. > :02:33.Syria or Zimbabwe? Should we foot the bill for this freedom when we
:02:33. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:38.have enough problems in our own Death to Gaddafi! Go to hell!
:02:38. > :02:43.people will welcome the end of Gaddafi's rule. He fostered
:02:43. > :02:48.terrorism around the world and ruled with megalomaniac leave. But
:02:48. > :02:54.what happens next in Libya could be bloody. Our previous attempts to
:02:54. > :02:58.remove dictators have not gone well. We got rid of Saddam Hussein.
:02:58. > :03:03.is the end of Saddam Hussein's grip on the city. But it took almost 200
:03:03. > :03:08.British soldiers lives, killed untold numbers of civilians and
:03:08. > :03:17.left a country in ruins. It also cost the British taxpayers over �9
:03:17. > :03:22.billion. And Libya could cost us around �280 million. So, should we
:03:22. > :03:26.foot the bill to sort out other countries' problems? Or when public
:03:26. > :03:30.service cuts threaten to derail our own country, should we be spending
:03:30. > :03:34.that money at home? How many NHS services could be saved if we
:03:34. > :03:38.resist the urge to intervene? In the wake of recent events, aren't
:03:38. > :03:42.our own police force is more of a priority than foreign adventures?
:03:42. > :03:48.But don't we also have a moral duty to intervene and protect people
:03:48. > :03:51.from despots who torture and kill them? It's not entirely altruistic.
:03:51. > :03:56.Power-hungry dictators stockpile weapons of mass destruction and
:03:56. > :04:00.create unstable countries. Removing them could perhaps make the world a
:04:00. > :04:05.safer place for those. So, when cash is short, what should we spend
:04:05. > :04:10.our money on? Freedom abroad or safety at home? Colonel Bob Stewart,
:04:10. > :04:13.you have been involved in intervention abroad. Shouldn't the
:04:13. > :04:18.UK be the first priority? It is the first priority. The problem is,
:04:18. > :04:25.sometimes we have, in my view, a moral duty, where we can, within
:04:25. > :04:30.limits, to help fellow human beings abroad, such as what we tried to do
:04:30. > :04:40.in Bosnia in 1992. That is the question for our text vote this
:04:40. > :04:50.
:04:50. > :04:53.We will show you how you voted at the end of the programme. The UK is
:04:53. > :04:57.the first priority, but we need to do what we can? I'm not sure it is
:04:57. > :05:02.just about the UK being the first priority. I think the UK is very
:05:02. > :05:06.important. Barack Obama announcing the draw down of American forces
:05:06. > :05:10.from Afghanistan, saying it's time for nation-building at home, we
:05:10. > :05:13.spend billions on Iraq and Afghanistan. To what caused, I
:05:13. > :05:18.would argue, given the chaos in both of those countries? I think
:05:18. > :05:23.there is other criteria, Bob has been talking about within reason
:05:23. > :05:28.and limits. What are those limits? When we end up intervening, there's
:05:28. > :05:34.little morality involved in a lot of them. Often it is geopolitics.
:05:34. > :05:39.don't agree with that. We sometimes really go in for moral reasons.
:05:39. > :05:46.the minority of cases, you would agree? I said sometimes. While
:05:46. > :05:49.Libya and not Bahrain? Because Libya was something... I'll tell
:05:49. > :05:55.you why, I voted for it in Parliament. It's because I remember
:05:55. > :06:00.what happened in 1982, when I stood on the hills outside Sarajevo. It
:06:00. > :06:04.was something we could do. The their areas, we can't. We could do
:06:04. > :06:08.much more in Bahrain. They are an allied country, it's a tiny country
:06:08. > :06:13.and we could take it over in 10 seconds. That's why Libya matters
:06:13. > :06:17.and Bahrain has not come into the equation. Libya is on the border of
:06:17. > :06:27.Europe. If we didn't do anything, I think that Europe would have been
:06:27. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:30.flooded with people fleeing. We had that if she were immediately. Also,
:06:30. > :06:35.-- we had that if she were immediately. We've been involved
:06:35. > :06:43.with Libya for a long time. Those old enough to remember the killing
:06:43. > :06:48.of Yvonne Fletcher, the siege at the embassy, the bombing of the
:06:48. > :06:55.airline, we have been engaged with Gaddafi for a long time. In recent
:06:55. > :06:59.years, as our friend. I don't think he was ever my friend. Let me ask
:06:59. > :07:04.you a question. You've been an MP since May last year. How many times
:07:04. > :07:09.prior to this intervention did you raise the issue of human rights in
:07:09. > :07:14.the Commons? Did you object to David Cameron's government selling
:07:14. > :07:18.weapons to Gaddafi, as we did last year, with your government's
:07:18. > :07:24.approval? Conservative-led government. The Government that you
:07:24. > :07:28.support... Equally reprehensible. I'm asking you, who voted for the
:07:28. > :07:33.war. You're not the presenter, let somebody else in. There's a bigger
:07:33. > :07:38.issue in Libya. The point at which Gaddafi was approaching Benghazi
:07:38. > :07:42.with his troops, large numbers of people, hundreds of thousands of
:07:42. > :07:47.people were at risk of being murdered. That is why NATO got
:07:47. > :07:53.involved. Did you vote for regime change? It's one thing protecting
:07:53. > :07:57.the inhabitants of Benghazi, it's another thing bombing Sirte.
:07:57. > :08:01.military operation has got to be done from a realistic point of view.
:08:01. > :08:04.It wasn't going to end until Gaddafi was got rid of. Why were we
:08:04. > :08:07.not told that? They said it was not not told that? They said it was not
:08:08. > :08:11.regime change. Ask them. One of the reasons why it was one of the
:08:11. > :08:16.biggest votes in parliament, with MPs on all sides voting for the
:08:16. > :08:20.action, a remarkable debate, and honest debate. If it wasn't honest,
:08:20. > :08:24.they said it wasn't going to be regime change. Quite simply that
:08:24. > :08:27.there was a strong feeling that as long as Gaddafi was there, Libya
:08:27. > :08:31.was going to have all sorts of problems inside and outside the
:08:31. > :08:35.country. Can I ask you a question about the money? The question we
:08:35. > :08:42.asking the audience is a valid cash should be used to topple dictators.
:08:42. > :08:47.We talked about a huge amount of money involved. If it could be used
:08:47. > :08:53.on the NHS or education here, all on humanitarian aid overseas, would
:08:53. > :08:57.that be a better use of the money? Let's remember that in the United
:08:57. > :09:01.Kingdom, our budget for health is three of four times the budget for
:09:01. > :09:05.defence. The budget for education is larger than defence. We do spend
:09:05. > :09:09.an awful lot more on services in our country is. People will be
:09:09. > :09:14.saying that all of those things are being cut. So his defence. You have
:09:14. > :09:18.to be pragmatic about this. If you are going to take any action, and
:09:18. > :09:22.military action is an extension of politics by other means. That has
:09:22. > :09:25.been said many times in the past. If you're going to take action you
:09:25. > :09:29.have to be pragmatic and practical about it. It has to be achievable.
:09:29. > :09:33.You shouldn't go into it unless you are pretty sure you can achieve
:09:33. > :09:37.what you're going to do. It didn't happen in Afghanistan and to some
:09:37. > :09:42.extent in Iraq. Here, it is a limited engagement. God willing, it
:09:42. > :09:46.shouldn't cost an enormous amount. You are happy that taxpayers' money
:09:47. > :09:51.is used as long as it is practical and there is an endgame involved?
:09:51. > :09:54.You have to achieve the end. You have to be careful what the
:09:55. > :10:00.objective was. In Libya it was to try and prevent wholesale massacres.
:10:00. > :10:05.I think that has been achieved. Also, to try to achieve stability
:10:05. > :10:08.in a country that borders the rest of Europe. Mehdi Hasan, is your
:10:08. > :10:13.argument that if you cannot go in and topple every dictator, you
:10:13. > :10:18.should not use the cash to topple one? No, there are several
:10:18. > :10:25.arguments. The key point is that we have no right to go in. Who made us
:10:25. > :10:28.the world's policeman? We are not going to get rid of the King of
:10:28. > :10:35.Saudi Arabia, but we will get rid of Saddam Hussein. You have to ask
:10:35. > :10:39.questions about our motivations, our interests. Whether we are
:10:39. > :10:46.honest. Not even topple one? Regime change is illegal under
:10:46. > :10:51.international law. There is a UN resolution that says...
:10:51. > :10:56.specifically was conceived to avoid massacres, not to bring about
:10:56. > :11:00.regime change. At the point why MPs voted for it, because David Cameron
:11:00. > :11:09.said it wasn't about regime change. When did the RAF go from being the
:11:09. > :11:15.Royal Air Force to the rebel Air Force? One of our viewers survived
:11:15. > :11:19.the Kosovan conflict. Why should the UK get involved in other
:11:20. > :11:26.people's wars? Because it is the right thing to do. If we are going
:11:26. > :11:30.to put on one side sovereignty as the international law, as Mehdi
:11:30. > :11:34.Hasan mentioned, then we will leave ourselves into the kind of thing
:11:34. > :11:40.that happened at the 17th century, guaranteed that states can do
:11:40. > :11:45.whatever they want with their own citizens. In Libya, it was simple.
:11:45. > :11:49.It was the movement of the people by them against a brutal dictator.
:11:50. > :11:56.The turning point was when the Libyan people organised themselves.
:11:56. > :11:59.Tell me about what happened to you. You are now at the Kosovo Institute
:11:59. > :12:09.for Research and Development. How did intervention help you
:12:09. > :12:09.
:12:09. > :12:15.personally? Well, I have been literally saved by the bombs that
:12:15. > :12:18.NATO dropped against Serbia and against Slobodan Milosevic. That is
:12:18. > :12:24.one of the key reasons I am in favour of interventions. What
:12:24. > :12:30.happened in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999 was only the final phase of a ten-
:12:30. > :12:38.year long repression that Serbia was waging against Kosovo. 20,000
:12:38. > :12:43.people died. People were deported. Shouldn't NATO have intervened in
:12:44. > :12:50.1999? If they hadn't, I would not be participating in this debate. I
:12:50. > :12:54.would be dead or seeking refuge. Well, the Balkans is an interesting
:12:54. > :13:00.example. There was an ongoing genocide. In Kosovo, it was not
:13:00. > :13:05.more complicated than he was making out. In Kosovo, yes, we did prevent
:13:05. > :13:09.Serbs killing. But look what has happened since, lots of Serbs were
:13:09. > :13:14.ethnically cleansed from Kosovo. The Prime Minister we put in charge
:13:14. > :13:20.has been accused of being involved in prostitution, organ trafficking,
:13:20. > :13:24.it's not all perfect. These are the people we got into bed with.
:13:24. > :13:29.were dealing with its human beings. We were dealing with the KLA, which
:13:30. > :13:35.was described as a terrorist group. Argue in favour of anything?
:13:35. > :13:40.not in favour of killing people. We killed a lot of Serbs, were you in
:13:40. > :13:44.favour of that? What happened in Kosovo after the intervention is a
:13:44. > :13:49.huge failure, a set of failures in the international community. It's
:13:49. > :13:53.mostly because of the UN mission that was installed here to keep the
:13:53. > :13:58.peace and it had no exit strategy. It had no clear plans on what to do
:13:58. > :14:02.with Kosovo. Even if Kosovo was a failed States today, which it is
:14:03. > :14:06.not, I believe the 1999 intervention was still the right
:14:06. > :14:12.thing to do. Let's talk to Dr Michael Williams, a professor in
:14:12. > :14:18.governance. He's on the line from America. Thank you for joining us.
:14:18. > :14:27.If people are being killed, do we have a moral duty to intervene?
:14:27. > :14:30.It depends on the situation. You summed it up well when you said
:14:30. > :14:35.that Gaddafi was threatening to kill possibly hundreds of thousands
:14:35. > :14:42.of people. At the end of the day, we acted pre-emptively. That is a
:14:42. > :14:47.problem. In Kosovo, we already know what happened. In Rwanda, we have
:14:47. > :14:51.repeated calls for intervention and it didn't happen. Now we allow that
:14:51. > :14:57.to be the spectre, we must intervene. There is no evidence
:14:57. > :15:00.that Gaddafi would have perpetrated what we were expecting, but he had
:15:00. > :15:07.done two cities he had captured. It's a slippery slope. The
:15:07. > :15:10.rationale here justifies integration -- intervention around
:15:10. > :15:15.the world. Saddam Hussein killed thousands of people in his own
:15:16. > :15:20.country. He killed thousands of Kurds during ethnic cleansing. That
:15:20. > :15:30.would be a rationale for getting involved. Suddenly, that wasn't
:15:30. > :15:30.
:15:30. > :15:34.legitimate and Libya was. It's not clear. One of the commentators,
:15:34. > :15:39.they said that you see a lot of damage coming out when you side
:15:39. > :15:42.with one side that turn out to be a terrorist organisation and end up
:15:42. > :15:48.committing crimes against humanity. It goes back to the core argument
:15:48. > :15:50.of what is in the national interest. Genocide and ethnic cleansing
:15:50. > :15:55.become everything that you need to act, but you need to be very
:15:55. > :16:05.deliberative. There was a rushing into the situation in Libya that
:16:05. > :16:10.
:16:10. > :16:13.Should it be a narrow definition about national interest? You can
:16:13. > :16:17.never get it exactly right. You can never have all the information you
:16:17. > :16:23.require. You are trying to make a judgement on what will happen in
:16:23. > :16:28.future. If we don't have a wave of Libyans, most people will say, they
:16:28. > :16:33.you are, wasn't necessary. Had we not intervened I'm sure we would
:16:33. > :16:38.have had refugees as our young man from Kosovo indicated. You cannot
:16:38. > :16:43.get it exactly right. You are dealing with human beings, human
:16:43. > :16:51.failings, trying to predict the future sometimes. What the MPs have
:16:51. > :16:54.to do and disorders have to do is do their best.
:16:55. > :17:00.Dr Williams raises an interesting point in the case of Rwanda. We
:17:00. > :17:05.didn't intervene but they cannot be a person who thinks back...
:17:05. > :17:14.I wonder and Bosnia were different, they were ongoing genocide still to
:17:14. > :17:20.begin with -- Rwandan. -- genocides to begin with.
:17:20. > :17:25.In a wonder, if we were having this debate now and Rwanda was going on,
:17:25. > :17:31.which you argue we should intervene and use our money to do so? I would.
:17:31. > :17:36.And the Canadian colonel on the ground went crazy complaining about
:17:36. > :17:43.the fact America it was one of those countries at the forefront of
:17:43. > :17:48.blocking intervention at the time. But those problems, we roll-out
:17:48. > :17:51.these examples to justified action now, and that is dangerous, it is a
:17:51. > :17:55.slippery slope. Each case should be judged on its own merits rather
:17:55. > :17:59.than say we did it there, we will do it here.
:17:59. > :18:04.There is also a danger of using hindsight a little too much. The
:18:04. > :18:12.problem with grander is most of the terrible deaths happened within a
:18:12. > :18:20.short space of time -- Rwanda. With some of the others, it took a
:18:20. > :18:25.little bit longer. With Libya it was plainly obvious that Gaddafi's
:18:25. > :18:30.tanks were on the way to Benghazi, it was a matter of days. There was
:18:30. > :18:38.in February, March. We have toppled a dictator and an RAF is bombing
:18:38. > :18:42.Sirte, what does that got to do with protecting citizens in
:18:42. > :18:49.Benghazi? Given half a chance he would come back into power and
:18:49. > :18:53.carry on. The political editor of the end
:18:53. > :19:02.redux and society, is there a good reason for the action in Libya for
:19:02. > :19:12.using taxpayers' money and be where we are now? Of course. Policy-
:19:12. > :19:13.
:19:13. > :19:17.making is not a game. You have to make foreign-policy. The moral
:19:17. > :19:21.imperative was clearly as Edwina says there would have been a
:19:21. > :19:28.slaughter in Benghazi, and acceptable to let that stand as
:19:28. > :19:33.part of being the democracy that are engaged in global governance
:19:33. > :19:38.together seeking the kind of norms for Global governance we do. There
:19:38. > :19:43.is a strategic imperative which is very clear. If we remember the Arab
:19:43. > :19:49.spring, if he would have managed to stand up and machine gun his way
:19:49. > :19:53.back into power the message that sense to the rest of the Middle
:19:53. > :19:57.East and to those people struggling for freedom so bravely is
:19:57. > :20:02.unacceptable. Hence I commend the Prime Minister, I commend Britain
:20:02. > :20:06.for the leadership it has shown, both as part of being a responsible
:20:06. > :20:10.member of the global community, but also in its own national interests
:20:10. > :20:16.in insuring people of the Middle East are free to pursue their
:20:16. > :20:23.dreams which will lead to more stability.
:20:23. > :20:28.My wife he was own international delicate to the Red Cross -- who
:20:28. > :20:32.was an international delicate. If you could really be good you could
:20:32. > :20:36.decide how many people would die if you do this and our people are
:20:36. > :20:40.going to die if you do that and the argument that says the less people
:20:40. > :20:44.die would be there when you should select. Unfortunately we don't have
:20:44. > :20:48.hindsight, otherwise we would be in a much better situation. The less
:20:48. > :20:54.people that died, the better. That is why we are trying to intervene,
:20:54. > :20:58.to stop people dying. But we are not intervening in
:20:58. > :21:02.places where we could do a lot of good.
:21:02. > :21:06.Let's leave us with a couple of emails. Angela from Hampshire says
:21:06. > :21:09.I am partly been, people don't realise Libya has huge turnover and
:21:09. > :21:13.will pay Britain back long term. Money from Britain has been useful
:21:13. > :21:18.in the short term. Surely Iraq is already a better
:21:18. > :21:23.place without Saddam? Libya looked like it is moving in the right
:21:23. > :21:31.direction. Mike says it is global feudalism. I have military strength,
:21:31. > :21:36.allied myself with them, in return they pay me answer to it favourable
:21:36. > :21:46.trading links, we just dress it up more effectively these days. Should
:21:46. > :21:50.
:21:50. > :22:00.we spend our cash to toppled You have 20 minutes before that
:22:00. > :22:01.
:22:01. > :22:05.A survey this week says employers are happier taking on an immigrant
:22:06. > :22:08.than a British worker because they are better educated and not as lazy.
:22:08. > :22:13.How does this square with the Government's struggle to cut
:22:13. > :22:21.immigrant numbers? Mehdi Hasan thinks that policy is daft and this
:22:21. > :22:25.is his Sunday Stand. I believe immigrants have helped put the
:22:25. > :22:29.Great into Great Britain and we need more immigration, not less. In
:22:29. > :22:35.times of financial hardship they can be tempting to shut the door on
:22:35. > :22:39.Johnny foreigner and keep our economy to ourselves but immigrants
:22:39. > :22:46.have played a huge part of the boom and they can play a huge part in
:22:46. > :22:56.getting us out of the bus. Economies across the world such as
:22:56. > :22:57.
:22:57. > :23:02.America were built by immigrants. Google, and Tesco, EasyJet, all
:23:02. > :23:06.created by immigrants or their children. They are twice as likely
:23:06. > :23:11.to start a new business that people born in the new K. Poor people
:23:11. > :23:13.moving to rich countries is a good thing. For example in the current
:23:13. > :23:17.he moved to the Wests and more money back to their home countries
:23:17. > :23:23.than we give in foreign aid. -- to the West. If you want cut foreign
:23:23. > :23:26.aid you should support more immigration. And did I mention the
:23:26. > :23:31.ageing population? Without new immigrants coming into the work
:23:31. > :23:35.force how will we pay for our growing army of pensioners? It is
:23:35. > :23:39.time to say the unsayable. It has been a blessing, not a curse.
:23:39. > :23:47.If you have got away up and you can make your point on Skype and joined
:23:47. > :23:54.the conversation on Twitter, phone, or e-mail. At this point we welcome
:23:54. > :23:58.Kiran Bali, a Hindu leader and magistrate. Your father came from
:23:58. > :24:06.India, you are a magistrate, community leader, you would welcome
:24:06. > :24:10.more immigration. In the 60s there was a peak of
:24:10. > :24:13.375,000 and there was a skills shortage, demand for people to come
:24:13. > :24:17.over from Asia and my father came, integrated will commonly the
:24:17. > :24:22.language and encouraged worth ethics, long hours, and that is
:24:22. > :24:28.what was required at the time. -- work ethics. We are experiencing
:24:28. > :24:34.numbers up to 7 million and it is unsustainable. There is a burden on
:24:34. > :24:37.the NHS, housing system. And integration. We are very hospitable
:24:37. > :24:42.but sometimes not everybody wants to integrate into British society,
:24:42. > :24:48.the dead have an understanding of the democratic values we sustain --
:24:48. > :24:52.they don't have. It is hard to stop segregation of communities. Does it
:24:52. > :24:56.surprise you to hear what she is saying? I am disappointed. I hear
:24:56. > :25:01.it a lot as a British Asian. It is what I call the drawbridge
:25:01. > :25:09.mentality. We have come here, no one else. It is bad to say in the
:25:09. > :25:13.60s there was demand, but not now. I am disappointed to hear lines
:25:13. > :25:18.like immigrants are a burden on the NHS. One-in-four nurses in London
:25:18. > :25:24.is foreign-born. If immigrants stopped working in the NHS stopped
:25:24. > :25:28.working, it which are down tomorrow. We should welcome them. But in
:25:29. > :25:32.restricted numbers. We are restricted numbers. There is a
:25:32. > :25:37.system in place where MPs themselves have said UK Border
:25:37. > :25:44.Agency is not fit for purpose because we don't know how many...
:25:44. > :25:51.Last year 239,000 more people came into our country and left it. It is
:25:51. > :25:57.not just, let me finish, it is not just that. It is from Europe as
:25:57. > :26:03.well. We have a problem. 5% of the babies born in the NHS last year
:26:03. > :26:09.were born to mothers from Eastern Europe. 20,000 from Poland. That is
:26:09. > :26:12.a heck of a burden. Whatever you say. It is not just the NHS, it is
:26:12. > :26:18.the schools. One-fifth of the the Wall coming into this country
:26:18. > :26:28.actually have a job to go to. you in favour of pulling out of the
:26:28. > :26:31.EU? Actually, I am. If we stop people coming here... Ammon favour
:26:31. > :26:35.of going back to an economic relationship with the European
:26:35. > :26:41.Union, and not the politics. If we stop people coming from the
:26:41. > :26:44.European Union, we can't, and we would have to stop people from here
:26:44. > :26:52.working in EU countries so that would stop people working in Italy,
:26:52. > :26:56.Spain, France. There would be an arrangement, like the row with
:26:56. > :27:00.Switzerland. If this is turning into an anti-European Union debate
:27:00. > :27:06.I come up for it. But quite frankly we are talking about immigration.
:27:06. > :27:13.The problem with immigration is it put a huge burden on our society.
:27:13. > :27:17.Regardless of our society... also boost the economy. Especially
:27:17. > :27:21.the skills that comment. We need immigration. I'm not saying we
:27:21. > :27:28.don't need immigration, for goodness sake, we are a small
:27:28. > :27:35.country, quite full. We are not fall, Bob. We have been hearing
:27:35. > :27:44.this for decades. The proportion of immigrants is about 11%. In Sweden
:27:44. > :27:48.it is 13, America 14, Canada 20, the Australia 25. Let's take
:27:48. > :27:53.Amsterdam, much more densely populated, they don't have crowded
:27:53. > :27:56.trains, schools, because they invest in infrastructure.
:27:56. > :28:01.Immigrants then place a burden on society, it is a lack of
:28:01. > :28:08.infrastructure. Let's put that economic 0.2 Mark Adams at the
:28:08. > :28:15.London Chamber of Commerce. -- that economic point to mark Adams. Could
:28:15. > :28:21.be used the unemployed Britons have fully, usefully, economically
:28:22. > :28:26.instead of migrant workers. British business has to pass all kinds of
:28:26. > :28:30.hurdles before they can employ it migrant workers from outside the
:28:30. > :28:36.European Union. Some of those people we are trying to employee
:28:36. > :28:42.have global skills. They are not available among UK workforce and we
:28:42. > :28:46.need to welcome people with this kind of skills into our country and
:28:46. > :28:51.we benefit from the skills they bring. Our economy is enriched by
:28:51. > :28:56.it and create more jobs for those with fewer skills and grows our
:28:56. > :29:00.economy more generally. Why can't we work with the British public to
:29:00. > :29:05.equip them with their skills so they can go for those jobs as well?
:29:05. > :29:10.While we are relying on migrant workers for their skills? That
:29:10. > :29:14.invest in our people. Of course we should be investing in skills in
:29:14. > :29:19.our own work force but what is the best way of doing that? Impose
:29:19. > :29:25.burdens on business dictating who they can and can't employee, rather
:29:25. > :29:30.than encouraging business to recruit in the global workplace. We
:29:30. > :29:34.are a global business community in this country, and we should be able
:29:34. > :29:38.to recruit particularly very highly skilled workers, globally. When we
:29:38. > :29:46.grow the economy as a result, of course we should be training people
:29:46. > :29:51.with fewer skills to take up those positions.
:29:51. > :29:56.We want the best people for the jobs. If 68% of London firms say
:29:56. > :30:06.migrant workers work harder, and as Mark Adams says, the skills come
:30:06. > :30:08.from outside the UK, those are the Some people come to this country
:30:08. > :30:14.and don't make any effort to learn the language and they make precious
:30:14. > :30:18.little effort to try and integrate. Now, that is a problem for us. It
:30:18. > :30:21.is a problem that a burden on our society. Of course, we got the
:30:21. > :30:26.example of a Polish plumber as being really good. Yes, they are
:30:26. > :30:31.exactly the sort of people that we want to come into the country.
:30:31. > :30:35.you would support more immigration from hard working Polish people?
:30:36. > :30:40.would support a limited, but more selectivity and who comes.
:30:40. > :30:43.talks about English lessons. I can't stand when Tory MPs give us
:30:43. > :30:50.lectures on that when this Tory-led government is cutting funding for
:30:50. > :30:55.English lessons for migrants. If you really cared about them, you
:30:55. > :30:59.would not be voting for that. reason why we are cutting funds at
:30:59. > :31:03.the moment, all across government spending, is because we have no
:31:03. > :31:09.money left and it's because the Government that you support
:31:09. > :31:12.actually spent it. I thought we had �280 million in the last suspicion.
:31:13. > :31:18.Guy Taylor is an immigration campaigner. Welcome to the
:31:18. > :31:21.programme. To somebody who is struggling in this country, and
:31:21. > :31:26.perhaps is listening to this conversation about money for
:31:26. > :31:30.English lessons, for skilled workers from abroad getting the
:31:30. > :31:35.jobs getting the jobs they feel they should have, did they have a
:31:35. > :31:38.good reason to feel aggrieved about immigration? We know about
:31:38. > :31:44.immigration? I think we've already heard how much we have spent on
:31:44. > :31:47.other things, that has been the problem. What we are seeing at the
:31:47. > :31:51.moment is scapegoating of immigrants. Saying, this is the
:31:51. > :31:54.problem. Basically, there are so many other things where things can
:31:54. > :32:00.improve and the Government is just tried to say, well, this is the
:32:00. > :32:06.problem, trying to displace the blame on to people. Colonel Bob
:32:06. > :32:10.Stewart, we are scapegoating? we are not. We are just trying to
:32:10. > :32:16.be sensible. The Government actually has a target of reducing
:32:16. > :32:21.net immigration to about 100,000. That is a reasonable figure for us
:32:21. > :32:25.to sustain. In that 100,000, will get heckled Court of people that
:32:25. > :32:30.will positively benefit our society. The problem is that we are getting
:32:30. > :32:36.a huge number of people coming into this country that become a burden
:32:36. > :32:42.on the country. And we've got to get that sorted. I was reading
:32:42. > :32:47.about you and your experience. You act in plays, you act in Punjabi,
:32:47. > :32:53.Urdu, other languages. You do classes in bhangra and Bollywood.
:32:53. > :32:58.These are examples of the richness and the control diversity --
:32:58. > :33:03.cultural diversity that immigrants bring to society. We are a better
:33:03. > :33:05.country for immigration, aren't we? The new cultures that Khamenei only
:33:05. > :33:10.enrich British society when it comes to learning about other
:33:10. > :33:13.things, the plays that you mentioned, the cuisine. But now we
:33:13. > :33:16.are having unprecedented levels of emigration. We are getting too many
:33:16. > :33:21.people and it's not sustainable. It's not about culture or race,
:33:21. > :33:24.it's about numbers. It's very difficult going forward. We are
:33:24. > :33:28.also getting people that has don't want to integrate. It's good when
:33:28. > :33:34.everybody wants to work together. That their rights issues. When it
:33:34. > :33:37.comes to the cost of interpreting... The same was going on in the 1960s
:33:38. > :33:42.when your father came here, they are different, they don't want to
:33:42. > :33:46.integrate, they smell... But they have integrated. But don't you
:33:46. > :33:48.immigrants do exactly the same? majority of people want to
:33:49. > :33:57.integrate and make a better life for themselves here. It's not the
:33:57. > :34:03.case every time. Professor David Conway is the or that of a Nation
:34:03. > :34:07.of Immigrants. What are your concerns? -- the author. My concern
:34:07. > :34:13.is the level of which net immigration has preceded over the
:34:13. > :34:21.last decade. What has happened in particular in England is to crowd
:34:21. > :34:26.out the young from entry-level jobs and to crowd out the unskilled.
:34:26. > :34:32.Therefore, to have adversely affected those who should be the
:34:32. > :34:37.priority. Is the answer to that not to upscale and give confidence to
:34:37. > :34:41.those young workers? Or are you suggesting we are making our own
:34:41. > :34:45.young workforce lazy because they think, this catch-all phrase, the
:34:45. > :34:54.foreigners are getting all of the jobs? Absolutely not. I think what
:34:54. > :35:00.has happened is that they have been neglected. There has been, on tap,
:35:00. > :35:04.a workforce which has been able to undercut them. There is this great
:35:04. > :35:08.myth that there is only a static number of jobs. It's the lump of
:35:08. > :35:12.labour fallacy. There are so many jobs, we have to divvy them up
:35:12. > :35:17.between people from here and people abroad. The economy doesn't work
:35:17. > :35:22.like that. Immigrants bolster the number of jobs and economic growth.
:35:22. > :35:26.I had a job on a forklift paying �17 an hour. Since we opened up to
:35:26. > :35:33.Maz immigration might have to look for other kinds of work because I
:35:33. > :35:37.do well to find a forklift job that pays half that. Immigrants work for
:35:37. > :35:40.less money and drive down wages. Obviously there are individual
:35:40. > :35:44.cases of people losing out. Nobody is claiming that's not the case,
:35:44. > :35:49.that speak nature of the economy. But there is mixed evidence on that.
:35:49. > :35:54.In terms of the idea that they drive down wages, areas a simple
:35:54. > :35:57.solution, enforce the living wage. The solution is to make sure
:35:57. > :36:01.employers enforce living wage legislation. Where there is talk
:36:01. > :36:04.about lazy British people, we need to work with them to get them out
:36:04. > :36:07.of benefits culture, the defenders -- dependency on disability living
:36:07. > :36:11.allowance when they are fit and healthy. We can work with them and
:36:11. > :36:15.motivate them to get back into the jobs that are being taken. K Bob
:36:15. > :36:19.Stewart, in the previous debate you were talking passionately about
:36:19. > :36:26.help for people in other countries when they are suffering. Now, when
:36:26. > :36:30.those people, perhaps as a result of conflict in other countries come
:36:30. > :36:35.here, do week stop showing them that compassion? No, but they come
:36:35. > :36:40.within limits. For that very reason, because they are political migrants.
:36:40. > :36:46.They have got to get out of their country. We are a decent society
:36:46. > :36:53.and we want to help other people. But we can't help everybody. I
:36:53. > :36:57.disagree entirely... Really? Yes, we do what we can in the world. We
:36:57. > :37:02.have limited assets to do it. We have limited assets to look after
:37:02. > :37:06.our people. Whatever he may think, about the Conservative Party, we
:37:06. > :37:10.care very much about what happens to the people at the lowest levels
:37:10. > :37:14.in our society. We have a lot of people coming from India and
:37:14. > :37:18.Pakistan. They come on visas, which is perfectly fine. They should
:37:18. > :37:22.return at the expiry date. But that's not happening. A lot of
:37:22. > :37:25.people are staying way past their expiry date, blending into the
:37:25. > :37:31.system and taking the welfare state benefits from the welfare state.
:37:31. > :37:34.That is not fair. Kathy has been in contact and says, as a nurse, it
:37:34. > :37:38.was doctors from India and Pakistan, as well as girls for the West
:37:38. > :37:42.Indies who trained as nurses that kept our NHS going in the 60s and
:37:42. > :37:46.70s. I believe immigrants put the Great and Great Britain and I agree
:37:46. > :37:50.with what many Hassan is saying. You can get in touch on the website
:37:51. > :37:55.if you would like to discuss that further. Coming up on Sunday
:37:55. > :37:59.Morning Live, we're going to talk to Edwina Curry about sexual
:37:59. > :38:04.infidelity. Should politicians lose their jobs if they are unfaithful?
:38:04. > :38:14.You can join in by webcam, you can make your views known by phone, e-
:38:14. > :38:19.
:38:19. > :38:25.mail online. Keep voting in our Texts will be charged at your
:38:25. > :38:32.standard Mr Drake. You have about five minutes before the poll closes.
:38:32. > :38:37.It's time to chew over some of the key moral moments of the week.
:38:37. > :38:42.Hurricane Irene, lashing New Yorker. When Hurricane Katrina hit New
:38:42. > :38:46.Orleans, evangelical Christian Pat Robinson blamed it on God's wrath
:38:46. > :38:51.over abortion. Do you think evangelicals from any religion
:38:51. > :38:57.might say the same thing this time around? Of course not. I hope not.
:38:57. > :39:03.This hurricane is huge. I was in Washington and North Virginia
:39:03. > :39:07.earlier, with the Defence Select Committee. This year, I mean. It
:39:07. > :39:11.was peaceful. Suddenly, these huge hurricanes are going to go up the
:39:11. > :39:18.east coast of America. At this moment, New York is being bombarded
:39:18. > :39:21.by its huge wind, a rise in sea levels. Of course it is not God's
:39:21. > :39:27.judgment. But I tell you what, it's weird that such a thing is
:39:27. > :39:31.happening so far north. They are called acts of God. It's an
:39:31. > :39:34.interpretation. We believe that God is as loving... We should not fear
:39:34. > :39:38.God. But I think we are very fortunate in his age that we have
:39:38. > :39:41.technology that can warn us of these hurricanes, these natural
:39:41. > :39:45.disasters. Do we learn from that? Are there enough emergency supplies
:39:46. > :39:50.available at the moment? Every time this happens, we run short of food
:39:50. > :39:56.and water. Another issue in the news that has concerned you, the
:39:56. > :40:03.rise in hospital admissions over here caused by alcohol. We talked
:40:03. > :40:06.about a strained NHS. We have seen a 25% rise in the related disease.
:40:06. > :40:11.Chronic liver disease. That is solely down to alcohol consumption.
:40:11. > :40:15.Now, why can we not have sensible drinking? Why can't we banned the
:40:16. > :40:22.sale of cheap alcohol and work to educate those about the problems?
:40:22. > :40:24.It is a drug, a depressant. What about parents? If you are a parent,
:40:24. > :40:28.yacht into the hospital continuously with alcohol problems,
:40:28. > :40:32.what example the use it for your children? I think binge drinking is
:40:32. > :40:36.a real problem. It's been a problem for a while. One of the other
:40:36. > :40:39.stories eyesore which relates to this is that they have it binge
:40:39. > :40:43.drinking problem in China now. They think it's to do with the rise of
:40:43. > :40:47.the middle-class or whatever it is. Is not a phenomenon confined only
:40:47. > :40:51.to us. But we seem to do it worse when it comes to younger people.
:40:51. > :40:55.need to deal with it, it's growing as a problem. Here is an issue that
:40:55. > :41:00.the Government is grappling with. It decided not to go ahead with it.
:41:00. > :41:04.The decision not to censor social media. It comes after the riots.
:41:04. > :41:08.There was a suggestion that Twitter, Facebook, blackberries, they should
:41:08. > :41:12.be shut down. They are not going to do that. You must be pleased
:41:12. > :41:15.because you have 15,000 followers on Twitter. Thank you for that
:41:15. > :41:19.wonderful advertisement. I'm delighted, not just for myself, but
:41:19. > :41:22.I think possible liberties and human rights. It's very important
:41:23. > :41:26.that David Cameron's knee-jerk intervention in the debate earlier
:41:26. > :41:30.this month, when he said they would take action against social networks
:41:30. > :41:34.sites. The Home Secretary, meeting with bosses from Twitter,
:41:34. > :41:37.BlackBerry, Facebook, saying they are not going to do that. How can
:41:37. > :41:43.we have any credibility to tell the Chinese, the Iranians, the Saudis,
:41:43. > :41:46.that you can't shut down on social networking? This is the first time
:41:46. > :41:53.on his programme I'd agreed with you! Let's revel in this moment of
:41:53. > :41:58.agreement. Are you on any of these sites? No. I'll tell you why, if it
:41:58. > :42:01.takes up so much time. They are spending their entire time. I have
:42:02. > :42:05.enough things to do already without spending my time on this. Online
:42:05. > :42:09.media can be helpful in these occasions, like the riots. We can
:42:09. > :42:14.nip things in the bud. We can encourage more online policing.
:42:14. > :42:20.clean-up was done through Twitter. We are all agreeing, then? A good
:42:20. > :42:24.consensus. Its a good time for this consensus. Let's enjoy that for a
:42:24. > :42:29.moment. We have been voting in our text poll. We asked if we should
:42:29. > :42:39.spend our cash on toppling dictators. The poll is closing, so
:42:39. > :42:41.
:42:41. > :42:45.do not text because your vote will Now, Sally Bercow has been waxing
:42:45. > :42:49.lyrical about her sex life with her politician husband. Some
:42:49. > :42:54.politicians seem as little less keen on their wives. Silvio
:42:54. > :42:59.Berlusconi, with his shocking parties, for example. Bill Clinton
:42:59. > :43:03.and his unusual use of the corridor of the oval room. Even John Major.
:43:03. > :43:08.Should politicians who take back to basics to mean back to my place
:43:08. > :43:14.forfeit our trust? Or should we be more like the French and accept
:43:14. > :43:18.their sexual peccadilloes? Politics and sex scandals are
:43:18. > :43:25.nothing new. Played out in the full light of tabloid glory, they have
:43:25. > :43:31.ended many political careers. time to return to those old, core
:43:31. > :43:34.values. Time to get back to basics. Particularly during the
:43:34. > :43:37.Conservatives's back-to-basics campaign in the early 90s. Nothing
:43:37. > :43:43.annoyed the public more than politicians preaching purity and
:43:43. > :43:48.then indulging in hanky-panky. One by one, the scandals came and the
:43:48. > :43:51.politicians fell. Recently, we were put more forgiving. Politicians
:43:51. > :43:54.that play away may lose credibility, but they usually only lose their
:43:54. > :44:00.jobs if they give their love for special favours, like renting a
:44:00. > :44:04.flat, or a visa for a nanny. It's slightly different in other
:44:04. > :44:08.countries. Silvio Berlusconi faces trial for sex with an under-age
:44:08. > :44:13.prostitute. But he is still hanging on to powerful stop with
:44:13. > :44:16.allegations of sexual assault this week dismissed, French presidential
:44:16. > :44:21.candidate Dominique Strauss-Kahn can start to rebuild his political
:44:21. > :44:25.life. But should a private scandal Bede as to question the ability to
:44:26. > :44:32.lead? If politicians can lie to the ones they love, are they more
:44:32. > :44:35.likely to lie to us? I just want to make it clear that we put all the
:44:35. > :44:38.misunderstandings behind us. If we trust them to run the country,
:44:39. > :44:44.shouldn't they have higher moral standards than the rest of us?
:44:44. > :44:48.Of course, Edwina Curry is back for this debate. You can join in by
:44:48. > :44:52.webcam will make your point by phone, text, e-mail online. You, of
:44:52. > :45:02.course, had a four year affair with John Major before he became Prime
:45:02. > :45:02.
:45:02. > :45:09.Minister. Should he have got the It was a big secret. Until long
:45:09. > :45:15.after we had lost power. We had to elections when New Labour one.
:45:15. > :45:21.us that make it OK? Secondly it was not on our expenses forms, we did
:45:21. > :45:25.it not claim any taxpayers' money. That was a private liaison and one
:45:25. > :45:30.for a long time that matter to both of us. Should private liaisons for
:45:30. > :45:36.public figures remain private, as long as no public money involved,
:45:36. > :45:41.nobody knows about it, is it justified? The point is we want to
:45:41. > :45:46.trust our politicians. If they are lying to the person closest to them,
:45:46. > :45:50.can we trust them? We want to trust our politicians because that is the
:45:50. > :45:56.way things are set up in our country. They don't just stand for
:45:56. > :46:00.election on the basis they are bullied at finance or knowledgeable
:46:00. > :46:07.about defence. -- brilliant. There are several elements. What is the
:46:07. > :46:11.nature of the injured -- indiscretions? Is it illegal?
:46:11. > :46:15.Another element is what kind of reputation does that individual
:46:15. > :46:19.have anyway? Dominic Strauss-Kahn may have got off the wrapping
:46:19. > :46:24.America but his reputation as a womaniser has damaged him and he
:46:24. > :46:29.will not be able to stand for the Prince -- French presidency. What
:46:29. > :46:34.is the zeitgeist, feeling of the time? Bob and I can both remember
:46:34. > :46:38.when you couldn't be gay and stand for Parliament. I can remember when
:46:38. > :46:42.there was very difficult for a divorced person to get into the
:46:42. > :46:49.British Cabinet. Margaret Thatcher changed that because she married a
:46:49. > :46:55.divorced man. John Major himself wanted the Zeitgeist to be back to
:46:55. > :46:58.bassist -- back to basic and purity and integrity and honesty.
:46:58. > :47:03.remember when he made that speech are remember thinking this will
:47:03. > :47:10.come back to bite you, not only him but the very some ministers that
:47:10. > :47:15.were found wanting on the criteria the Prime Minister then set. Do we
:47:15. > :47:19.let it stay in their private world as long as they did go trumpeting
:47:19. > :47:26.about we what everybody to have integrity and be honest?
:47:26. > :47:31.It is such a difficult question and I take it we know it's point about
:47:31. > :47:37.the zeitgeist. As a citizen I can't help but think it does matter. Am -
:47:37. > :47:42.- and that it is not fashionable to say that, but I do wonder if they
:47:42. > :47:47.can lie to the person closest to them, why can't they lie to me
:47:47. > :47:50.about taxes or immigrant numbers all wars? We live in an age of
:47:51. > :47:54.personality politics. We are constantly told this person is good
:47:54. > :48:00.because they talk well, friendly, we see them up barbecues kissing
:48:00. > :48:04.babies, we look at David Cameron. Cameron is more personable. There
:48:04. > :48:09.were told if you find that they are treated, don't judge them on that.
:48:09. > :48:19.I'm sorry, I am, and I cannot help but do so. Colonel Bob Stewart, you
:48:19. > :48:26.had an affair. I got divorced. had a great love. You left your
:48:26. > :48:35.wife and married a great love. Do private lives, the leaving of a
:48:35. > :48:38.wife, have any impact on your profile as a politician? No. If the
:48:38. > :48:42.situation doesn't make him too tired or fundamentally they
:48:42. > :48:46.actually are unfit because they're concentrating on other things were
:48:46. > :48:48.now doing the job, I would like to know who 80s would sit on a
:48:48. > :48:53.kangaroo court in judgment on people because I don't think there
:48:53. > :48:59.are many people in our society that haven't done things that are wrong
:48:59. > :49:05.and that includes Mehdi Hasan. Maybe he is too young to have done
:49:05. > :49:11.it yet. Confession time if you want to use the opportunity. What do you
:49:11. > :49:14.say to the abuses of power issues? David Blunkett in that film, he
:49:14. > :49:20.used ministerial cars, train tickets etc for his lover at the
:49:20. > :49:25.time. That is totally outrageous. That is wrong, we are all agreed on
:49:25. > :49:33.that. Edwina made that point straightaway. Do you think the
:49:33. > :49:39.Prime Minister, is at a public issue if he is having a -- having
:49:39. > :49:47.an affair. We were junior ministers. One of the things you will earn in
:49:47. > :49:52.a long life is politicians do not answer hypothetical questions. The
:49:52. > :49:57.element of hypocrisy comes in very strongly in our country. We hate
:49:57. > :50:01.hypocrisy. If somebody is totally upfront about misbehaviour or a
:50:02. > :50:06.pattern of behaviour that is fine. So senior politicians openly as my
:50:06. > :50:09.mother would say it live in sin, it is not a problem, they are not seen
:50:09. > :50:14.as in any way diminishing their life because they are not
:50:14. > :50:17.hypocritical about it. There are characters in the House of Commons
:50:17. > :50:21.and you can think of who I have a mind to who when asked are you
:50:21. > :50:28.going to have more Affairs said I had said. But then go on and do a
:50:28. > :50:36.really good job as MPs. It depends what is their own approach? If they
:50:36. > :50:40.set themselves up with a whole -- wholesome image de de deux when
:50:40. > :50:47.they say, tell the truth, say what is happening if they are challenged
:50:47. > :50:51.on it. Steve Clifford is from the Evangelical Alliance. Is it
:50:51. > :50:58.important that politicians are utterly faithful and loyal?
:50:58. > :51:05.I think it is important. I really did get this compartmental view of
:51:05. > :51:10.life. I am a whole person and link between a public and private life.
:51:10. > :51:14.My actions speak louder than my words. This question for me is
:51:14. > :51:20.about a far bigger question. It is about what kind of country do I
:51:20. > :51:24.want to live in, what kind of country for my kids and my kids'
:51:24. > :51:29.kids. Our want to live in a country where we keep our promises where we
:51:29. > :51:33.are faithful in our relationships, handle our finances with honesty,
:51:33. > :51:39.we can trust people. And when things go wrong, and they do go
:51:39. > :51:47.wrong, we owned up to it. I think there is a greater responsibility
:51:47. > :51:55.on politicians, journalists, and faith leaders. We claimed a moral
:51:55. > :52:00.high ground. You attempt to show the world views. We moguls. There
:52:00. > :52:05.is a greater responsibility to live up to our words -- we make laws.
:52:05. > :52:08.Let's find out why they have a different view in France. We can
:52:08. > :52:13.speak to a French academic, head of research at the global policy
:52:13. > :52:22.institute. Incensed -- France there is a sense this is par for the
:52:22. > :52:25.course. Does it impact on their ability to do the job?
:52:25. > :52:34.I don't know what politicians should be expected to have a higher
:52:34. > :52:38.moral standard than the rest of the population. It is -- you have to
:52:38. > :52:43.work harder and politics to get to the top. Once you reach the top
:52:43. > :52:50.people understand he should benefit from the job. You know you're very
:52:50. > :52:57.attractive if you have power, power is an aphrodisiac. People don't
:52:57. > :53:05.commit crimes as long as they don't like to you on morals, then I don't
:53:05. > :53:11.see what the problem is. Better to have satisfied politicians than a
:53:11. > :53:16.frustrated politician. We do have politicians here lecturing people
:53:16. > :53:20.about certain things about how our society is that they have every
:53:20. > :53:26.right to talk about family values, family structures as we are seeing
:53:26. > :53:31.in recent weeks after the riots, a long discussion about families.
:53:31. > :53:38.don't like politicians to meddle. They have got to have a moral
:53:38. > :53:43.message to send. They are not there to do morals. Everybody except
:53:43. > :53:51.people are not perfect. Even the previous man speaking is not
:53:51. > :53:58.perfect. That is part of being a human being. I would rather have a
:53:58. > :54:03.proper human being representing the than some kind of moral machine.
:54:03. > :54:09.There is an element of sexism. That was all right for the male
:54:09. > :54:15.politicians like Chirac and Mitterrand's. It wasn't all right
:54:15. > :54:19.for a female politician who put her dentist on the payroll. The problem
:54:19. > :54:24.with me to one who had a mistress, the make -- the big history was not
:54:24. > :54:32.she had a mistress, but she was has at the taxpayers' expense.
:54:32. > :54:36.Financial puritans. By being in these positions it actually makes
:54:36. > :54:41.you more attractive and therefore perhaps more likely to commit
:54:41. > :54:46.exactly the indiscretion that would lead to a downfall? It hasn't
:54:46. > :54:55.happened to me yet. I am a very powerful backbench politicians open
:54:55. > :55:01.it on. The fact of the matter is in may have happened to Edwina but it
:55:01. > :55:06.hasn't happened to me. If that is the case, do we risk losing a real
:55:06. > :55:11.human beings becoming politicians if we are too strict about it?
:55:11. > :55:19.Absolutely. The danger is if we only one saints, and I have said
:55:19. > :55:24.this myself, we will rule out a great number... You either have an
:55:24. > :55:28.affair or you are a saint, is there no middle ground? Coming up say
:55:28. > :55:33.having affairs is not a good thing and say actually when politicians
:55:33. > :55:43.do do that and exploit the Peter Power, that is a bad thing and we
:55:43. > :55:48.are allowed two caps -- cast judgement on that. I agree with
:55:48. > :55:51.what you have just said. Good, second time on the show.
:55:51. > :55:58.Politicians don't need to betray their partner for me to distrust
:55:58. > :56:00.every word they say, and Nick says if jobs were affected by sexual
:56:00. > :56:04.relationships the Liberal and figures would be much higher than
:56:04. > :56:07.they are today. And a sippers and breaks the law should not cost them
:56:07. > :56:11.their job. There are far more serious offences committed that
:56:11. > :56:18.people get away with in politics. We have to bring the discussion to
:56:18. > :56:25.an end. George text poll vote is in. We asked, should we spend our cash
:56:25. > :56:34.and toppled dictators? We have double-checked this result. 22%
:56:34. > :56:39.said yes, but 78% said no, we should not use our cash to topple
:56:39. > :56:43.dictators. Overwhelming majority saying you have won the argument.
:56:43. > :56:48.My number went objection is not cost, spending trillions of dollars
:56:48. > :56:51.on foreign wars isn't the right way to spend money or save lives but
:56:51. > :56:55.there are other issues at stake. Ingesting in the current climate
:56:55. > :56:59.people probably did, there were split poles and Libya, the cost
:56:59. > :57:05.issued the way you printed in the current era of austerity, people
:57:05. > :57:09.don't like it. Ask, is it right that we intervene in another
:57:09. > :57:14.country to save thousands of any human beings dying and you will
:57:14. > :57:21.find the reverse? Effectively it is the same question, just a from the
:57:21. > :57:27.phrase. It is the way you phrase the question. I agree with you bob.
:57:27. > :57:30.Amazing. It also demonstrates sometimes leadership is about doing
:57:30. > :57:33.what you know to be right which is something Prime Minister Cameron
:57:33. > :57:41.and Sarkozy have done. You don't always look at the opinion polls
:57:41. > :57:46.first. Does it disappointed that is the result of with what you have
:57:46. > :57:55.seen? No, it doesn't disappoint. It is understandable. With what I have
:57:55. > :58:01.seen in my life the fact of the matter is often I saw really big
:58:01. > :58:04.wrongs being done, and our armed forces stopped people dying. Do you
:58:04. > :58:09.know what? It is the most noble thing. I remember when I was told
:58:09. > :58:13.when I was in Bosnia, shortly after I arrived, I had to prepare a
:58:13. > :58:16.withdrawal plans and I went to some of my soldiers and said we have got
:58:16. > :58:21.to plant one with Coral and visit we are not leaving here, because
:58:21. > :58:26.the people here depend on us to save their lives. That is why we