:00:11. > :00:15.Ten years after the Twin Towers collapsed an half of us still
:00:15. > :00:20.associate Islam with terrorism. What does that say about our
:00:20. > :00:30.relationships with Muslims? Are we demonising round three million good
:00:30. > :00:43.
:00:43. > :00:47.Good morning. Welcome to Sunday morning live. Today we will hear
:00:47. > :00:52.two controversial views on the legacy of the terror attacks which
:00:52. > :00:58.killed 3,000 ten years ago. Tell us, do you agree with them? Since 9/11
:00:58. > :01:03.suspicion and fear of Islam has increased. A fear of terrorism may
:01:03. > :01:07.be understandable, but one British imam says it has made us demonise
:01:07. > :01:11.fellow Britons. There is no room for Muslims in the UK today,
:01:11. > :01:17.however hard we try to integrate. Many non-Muslims hold Muslims with
:01:17. > :01:24.contempt. After the attacks, the response, wars in Afghanistan and
:01:24. > :01:28.Iraq costing thousands of lives, and billions of pounds. A colossal
:01:28. > :01:31.mistake? Not according to this expert. The war on terror was the
:01:31. > :01:36.right response. It is working and Britain is right to be involved.
:01:36. > :01:40.It's the best way to stop global terrorism. My ges this morning each
:01:40. > :01:44.made their names for marching straight up to a mast and nailing
:01:44. > :01:51.their colours to it. Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens was a
:01:51. > :01:58.reporter in among other places America, Iraq, and Iran. He nearly
:01:58. > :02:02.got himself lynched in Africa. Ajmal Masroor is age nam who stood
:02:02. > :02:07.as a Liberal Democrat MP. He has front add TV series showing non-
:02:07. > :02:11.believers how to live as a Muslim. Angela Epstein writes for the
:02:11. > :02:14.Jewish chronicle and considers herself a professional Mancunian.
:02:14. > :02:19.She took flak for backing a Britishism D card. We would like to
:02:19. > :02:29.know what you think this morningle call in to challenge our guests or
:02:29. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:43.A British Muslim was convicted on Friday of plotting to kill British
:02:43. > :02:53.soldiers. A sign Muslims just don't buy into the British part of being
:02:53. > :03:05.
:03:05. > :03:11.a Muslim? Ajmal Masroor doesn't see Since 9/11, there has been a rise
:03:11. > :03:14.in attacks on Muslim men and women, on mosque, even on the Koran. The
:03:14. > :03:22.Prophet Mohammed is regular herly vilified. Muslim graves have been
:03:22. > :03:27.desecrated. Many have accused Muslims of not integrating into the
:03:27. > :03:34.society. That is far from the truth. They have failed to recognise
:03:34. > :03:36.integration is a two way process. I have suffered acute forms of racism,
:03:36. > :03:42.including physical vie -- violence against me and my family. Despite
:03:42. > :03:48.this, I am still very proud to be British. I am equally very proud to
:03:48. > :03:53.be a Muslim. Most important for me I am very proud to be a productive
:03:54. > :03:58.and integrated it is seven of this country. Muslims want to integrate.
:03:58. > :04:03.In fact, they are required to integrate by the teachings of their
:04:03. > :04:05.faith. There are those who keep putting up barriers and spreading
:04:05. > :04:12.hate. Those who oppose multiculturalism for Britain are
:04:12. > :04:19.part of the problem. The media plays its role by reporting anti-
:04:19. > :04:24.Muslim sentiment on a regular basis. The headlines read Islamic
:04:24. > :04:27.extremist. Muslim terrorist and Islamist bombers. Islam, violence
:04:27. > :04:33.and terrorism have become synonymous in the eyes of the
:04:33. > :04:38.general public. Muslim bashing has become culturally acceptable. I am
:04:38. > :04:47.increasingly getting the feel there is is no room for Muslims or Islam
:04:47. > :04:52.in the UK any more P -- more. He joins us this morning. Alongside
:04:52. > :04:56.you, Angela Epstein, I want to ask you first, Ajmal Masroor's argument
:04:56. > :05:01.is approximately 5% of the population might feel feared and
:05:01. > :05:04.persecuted. That is unacceptable isn't it? I think it is nonsense
:05:04. > :05:09.that we are demonising Muslims this any way. I think the fact we are
:05:09. > :05:13.asking the question is part of the problem, because it speem speaks
:05:13. > :05:19.volumes of the paranoia, and the blame cultural that pervaids in,
:05:19. > :05:23.albeit a minority part of culture, but it is a very voluble part of
:05:23. > :05:33.that minority. We will come back to Ajmal Masroor, that is the question
:05:33. > :05:41.
:05:41. > :05:48.for our text vote. Are Muslims We will show you how you voted at
:05:48. > :05:51.the end of the programme. So, your point, Angela, is this is just a
:05:51. > :05:55.complete misconception on the part of that percentage of the
:05:55. > :05:58.population? I think unfortunately, there are a lot of peaceable
:05:58. > :06:03.Muslims who just want to, as was said in the report, integrate and
:06:03. > :06:09.live a British life. Speaking as a Jewish girl, I consider myself
:06:09. > :06:14.British first and foremost, but Jewish, and I see that as a
:06:14. > :06:19.mutually exclusive situation. I don't feed off Britain and Britain
:06:19. > :06:23.don't exist for my benefit. Will is a lot of Muslims that feel that way,
:06:23. > :06:26.that are British Muslims and are happy do that. I think there are
:06:26. > :06:30.certain quarters that speak loudly about the fact they are somehow,
:06:30. > :06:37.they sort of place a blame on the fact they are not allowed to
:06:37. > :06:42.practise, the way they want to, and have propagated this blame culture.
:06:42. > :06:46.So is that, are you responsible for pushing a blame culture? This isn't
:06:46. > :06:51.going on Angela says, it is a few people with loud voices complaining.
:06:51. > :06:56.I think she is talking about her own experience, which one has to
:06:56. > :07:01.respect. If for example I'm not disintegrated. I am very integrated.
:07:01. > :07:04.I am an active member of a political party so I am involved in
:07:04. > :07:09.society and forming what we call tomorrow's and our future. What I
:07:09. > :07:14.am saying is simple, and if you are a Muslim, if you are eight times
:07:14. > :07:17.more likely to be stopped and searched by profiling. You are
:07:17. > :07:21.young Muslim of Asian background you are eight times more likely to
:07:21. > :07:25.be unemploy. If you are a young Muslim oration of a particular
:07:25. > :07:30.background, you are more likely not to perform as well many your school,
:07:30. > :07:35.or not get particular jobs you want. Then we have got security measures
:07:35. > :07:39.we have seen, particularly targets the Muslims those who have been
:07:39. > :07:43.stopped and searched and detained are Muslims. Increasing fear,
:07:43. > :07:47.remember in my report I said I am getting the feeling the environment
:07:47. > :07:53.we are seeing that has been created by media and institutions are
:07:53. > :07:58.giving this feeling and the rising of the feeling, that there may not
:07:58. > :08:03.be much room for Muslims to live in this country. Saying that, Britain
:08:03. > :08:08.has got more inclusive Islamic values than other countries. I am
:08:08. > :08:14.Britten British, this is my home. I am talking about my country, where
:08:14. > :08:20.I am feeling marginalised. So next to you somebody who writes in the
:08:20. > :08:26.British media, Peter Hitchens, does Ajmal Masroor's evidence amount to
:08:26. > :08:29.a process of deem myisation ?. think he is overdoing it a bit. We
:08:29. > :08:35.have to distinguish between legitimate reporting of the fact
:08:35. > :08:39.that some Muslims have been, for instance arrested, tried and
:08:39. > :08:43.convicted for terrorist offences. Some Muslims have stood up in our
:08:43. > :08:47.streets and said extremely unpleasant things about our country.
:08:47. > :08:51.We can all tell the div rens between those Muslims and other
:08:51. > :08:56.Muslims, we know perfectly well this isn't a general feature of all
:08:56. > :09:00.Muslim, for heavens sake, we have a minister in the Cabinet who is a
:09:00. > :09:05.Muslim. We have Muslims in the House of Lords, this country has
:09:05. > :09:09.done a great deal. Some of us think perhaps too much to accommodate
:09:09. > :09:13.itself to the Muslim religion, children are often taught in
:09:13. > :09:19.schools rather more about Islam than Christianity. I simply don't
:09:19. > :09:25.think that, it is not impossible for Muslims to live here stands up
:09:25. > :09:30.to examination. To demonise would be to be inventing thins which
:09:30. > :09:34.hadped happened, to be starting chants. Take the example of
:09:34. > :09:40.newspapers reporting Islamist terrorist, bomber, Islamic
:09:40. > :09:44.terrorist and bombers are oxy moron, one cannot be Muslim and a
:09:44. > :09:48.terrorist. Do you not? You have writ on a regular basis showing
:09:48. > :09:54.there is a systematic taking over the society by Muslims and Islam.
:09:54. > :10:01.These are deem anyisation that happen slowly.. Can I answer that
:10:01. > :10:05.question as to why it is legitimate to refer to Islamic terrorists. You
:10:05. > :10:09.will find in writings of people like Bin Laden a complete linking
:10:09. > :10:17.of their faith with the actions they are undertaking, they believe
:10:17. > :10:21.their actions are justified by their faith. You, you... Do with
:10:22. > :10:27.call an American Christian far right, a terrorist, with don't.
:10:27. > :10:31.There is an inconsistency sni the language you use.. If anybody had
:10:31. > :10:37.done in the name of Christianity what Osama Bin Laden did in the
:10:37. > :10:41.name of Islam we would be entitled to do so. Let us not get... Priest
:10:41. > :10:51.in the name of Christianity. crusades stopped a long time ago.
:10:51. > :10:57.We are talking about now. I wonder, it is a difficult thing for people
:10:57. > :11:03.to disentangle. That 19 men, between them, get on planes, and
:11:03. > :11:11.fly them, and kill 3,000 people as an act of terrorism and say it is
:11:11. > :11:17.linked with Islam. And it is hard then, for people, some people, to
:11:17. > :11:23.disentangle the name of Islam from terrorism. We know from a poll, 50%
:11:23. > :11:27.associate Islam with terrorism. How intellectually can you help people
:11:27. > :11:31.disentangle that. Simple. Look at your neighbour, look at the vast
:11:31. > :11:35.majority of people living in this country. There are three million
:11:35. > :11:41.according to your report, over one billion muscleys across the globe.
:11:41. > :11:46.99.9% of them are like you and me. Normal human being, getting on with
:11:46. > :11:51.life. As they are the measure, the yard stick, the minority, we all
:11:51. > :11:55.have rotten apples in our society. We can't mesh society by one or two.
:11:55. > :11:59.Because one or two or a group of individuals small in number have
:11:59. > :12:04.take then hijacked the message of Islam. We are brushing whole of
:12:04. > :12:08.Islam by it, even if your reporting.. No we are not. We are
:12:08. > :12:11.making the distinction. The distinction is made. If people, if
:12:11. > :12:14.people's actions are reported and what you are complaining about is
:12:14. > :12:19.when people are arrested, tried and convicted for terrorist offence,
:12:19. > :12:23.that is because they have been arrested... Arrested tried and
:12:23. > :12:29.convicted. They haven't been arrested and tried for being Muslim.
:12:29. > :12:34.They have been arrested and tried for doing something wrong. We don't
:12:34. > :12:39.arrest people for religion. I think part of the hostility that has been
:12:39. > :12:43.fabricated is because as Peter said, there has almost bing been an
:12:43. > :12:48.overaccommodation of Muslim values in this country. How? I will give
:12:48. > :12:53.you an example. To complete my point, this is a Christian country,
:12:53. > :12:57.we have Anglo Saxon values. That is not true. It is a multicultural
:12:57. > :13:00.society. Let me finish. This is a Christian country. It has Anglo
:13:00. > :13:04.Saxon values f you join the team you wear the shirt. If I want to
:13:04. > :13:08.play for Manchester United I don't think, I don't suit the colour red,
:13:08. > :13:12.I am going to wear a blue shirt. I don't expect as a Jewish girl for
:13:12. > :13:17.all the shops to close on Saturday because I observer the Sabbath but
:13:17. > :13:23.in newspapers, but they reflect what is going on there, will talk
:13:23. > :13:29.about a necessity for Halal meat to be served. I don't expect KFC to
:13:29. > :13:33.serve kosher meat. If they don't I will go to a kosher butcher. There
:13:33. > :13:39.is this complaint about not having values from a particular ethnic
:13:39. > :13:46.community made so loudly among other quarters. Take the example of
:13:46. > :13:50.KFC, did you know their decision to go KFC, it was for them it was a
:13:50. > :13:55.fantastic economic decision so they would make more money. You make an
:13:55. > :14:01.interesting point here, which I, could I elaborate. It is often the
:14:01. > :14:06.actions not of Muslims but people in this country seeking, in many
:14:06. > :14:11.cases wrongly, to apiece a Muslim demand, so you get Christmas,
:14:11. > :14:17.Christmas being abandoned about referred to as the holidays because
:14:17. > :14:23.some people think it will offend Muslims. It is a sad story that
:14:23. > :14:27.Christianity, or Christmas is not being celebrated. That is
:14:27. > :14:32.multiculturalism. We celebrate each other's goodness. We create a co-
:14:32. > :14:37.hee Si society. We accept each other's values. What you are
:14:37. > :14:41.suggesting is create a mono culture, similar to the one into one melting
:14:41. > :14:47.pot, you have no individual values. That is not how society works.
:14:47. > :14:54.want to go back to a phrase that I think you raised Peter. Fabricated
:14:54. > :15:04.hostility. Angela. Apologises. Angela, fabricated hostility. Dr
:15:04. > :15:16.
:15:16. > :15:22.Is the hospitality -- is it fabricated? No, it is not. I have
:15:22. > :15:28.visited organisations that have suffered "hate" crimes since 9/11.
:15:29. > :15:38.That is to say attacks that range from arson attacks, fire bombing
:15:39. > :15:41.
:15:41. > :15:48.attacks and broken windows. It is around the country as well. There
:15:48. > :15:54.is nothing fabricated in the analysis. Because of the work I
:15:54. > :16:01.have done as a police officer and as an academic researcher, it is
:16:01. > :16:06.quite a familiar account. Having said that, when one is dealing with
:16:07. > :16:10.Act's of violence, we should always keep in perspective and I am
:16:10. > :16:17.encouraged in London that the vast majority of London citizens
:16:17. > :16:22.recognise it is a multicultural society. Last weekend, in Tower
:16:22. > :16:26.Hamlets, when the rather provocative and Islamophobia at
:16:26. > :16:30.English Defence League Came to protest, there was a wonderful
:16:30. > :16:40.display of solidarity with Jewish leaders, Christian leaders and
:16:40. > :16:50.Muslim leaders working together to combat this type of hatred. Now we
:16:50. > :16:51.
:16:51. > :16:58.have Amanda from the Federation of student societies. Do you
:16:58. > :17:04.experience this? A lot of focus has been put on the potential
:17:04. > :17:09.radicalisation of Muslim students within universities. I think every
:17:09. > :17:14.Muslim or the majority of them having some way been affected by
:17:14. > :17:22.Islamophobia. It is something that stretches right back to the very
:17:22. > :17:28.early days of contact between Islam and Christendom. Recently, with
:17:28. > :17:33.regard to universities, I have seen the readiness by government to look
:17:33. > :17:40.at Muslims as all being a potential threat to British society. We have
:17:40. > :17:47.seen legislation passed where lecturers have been passed to spy
:17:47. > :17:55.it on their students, which is absurd given that students are
:17:55. > :18:05.making attempts to contribute to university campus life. We have a
:18:05. > :18:08.
:18:08. > :18:15.vice-president who is Muslim. you. You sound is breaking up a bit.
:18:15. > :18:20.Amanda, there is the evidence of the hostility. One former terrorism
:18:20. > :18:25.expert and a student. That is not to say that hostile activity does
:18:25. > :18:31.not take place but when we talk about appeasement, the root of it
:18:31. > :18:39.is Theo. We are using a word, phobia. It is almost becoming a
:18:39. > :18:44.self fulfilling prophecy. It is almost the new anti-Semitism. It is
:18:44. > :18:52.almost like a denial of up -- what happened to the Jewish community.
:18:52. > :18:57.It was a disgraceful episode in history. That is how it began.
:18:57. > :19:04.you would let me finish. Looking at the to as a parallel, anti-Semitism
:19:04. > :19:09.is on a rise in this country. In Manchester, there are more anti-
:19:09. > :19:17.Semitic attacks per capita than anywhere else in the country.
:19:17. > :19:21.horrible. Any kind of races them is an acceptable. But what we are
:19:21. > :19:25.missing is the fundamental argument that everyone should be free to
:19:26. > :19:32.practise their ethnic or cultural practices but it should not be
:19:32. > :19:37.imposed upon the Niger at -- larger, national character. I'm saying the
:19:37. > :19:44.same thing, that raises some is not acceptable against races at --
:19:44. > :19:47.Muslims or Jews or whatever but we are seeing institutional and slow
:19:47. > :19:54.Islamophobia at which is causing a serious problem in the Muslim
:19:54. > :19:58.community as well as the greater community. Can we examine this more
:19:58. > :20:06.carefully. There are lot of people in this country subject to all
:20:06. > :20:16.kinds of violence and not all racially motivated. Our criminal or
:20:16. > :20:21.justice system is not quite up to the task. In all cases this is
:20:21. > :20:27.wrong and should be addressed. It isn't necessarily just bad because
:20:27. > :20:32.it happens to Muslims. These things are crimes and they should be
:20:32. > :20:39.prevented and prosecuted and we all agree. The question is what kind of
:20:39. > :20:45.society we are. I object that Islamophobia is being used as if to
:20:45. > :20:50.have any doubts about the philosophy of Islam means some kind
:20:50. > :20:56.of mental disorder. I would not beat -- would not like to be
:20:56. > :20:59.subject to Sharia law as they don't like the attitude towards women. I
:20:59. > :21:09.have disagreements with Islam which are fundamentally Christian
:21:09. > :21:10.
:21:10. > :21:14.disagreements. You have had your say. Go for your polemic. Let me
:21:14. > :21:19.make a point as to why this has -- this should remain a Christian
:21:19. > :21:24.country. Everything you care to name is based upon Christianity. If
:21:24. > :21:30.Muslims want to live here, I am happy for them to do so and would
:21:30. > :21:36.like -- regard them as allies but they have to accept it is
:21:36. > :21:43.fundamentally a Christian country and integrate into it as such.
:21:43. > :21:51.are in the 21st century. Let me give you an example. The most eaten
:21:51. > :22:00.food today it is influenced by Bangladeshi is. It is easier said
:22:00. > :22:05.than done. I would like to talk to a diplomatic representative, or
:22:05. > :22:10.former one any way he was the first British ambassador overseas. Good
:22:10. > :22:17.morning to you. This idea has been raised that there is something
:22:17. > :22:22.separate about the Muslim community, calls for separate forms of justice,
:22:22. > :22:30.clothing and halal food. Do you see that as a separate nurse that is
:22:30. > :22:35.part of the problem? There is this idea of being separate. What we
:22:35. > :22:39.should look to it is the sense that people speak the language,
:22:39. > :22:45.understand the culture and that they understand the country they
:22:45. > :22:51.are joining. And that they show a greater determination to integrate
:22:51. > :22:58.and they have or some have. There are 3 million, or thereabouts,
:22:58. > :23:03.Muslim in this country and it is a growing population. It is open and
:23:03. > :23:08.-- oversimplifying to say that because they are not loved, which I
:23:08. > :23:13.do not think is true, most people do not even think about it. They
:23:13. > :23:19.are here and it is up to those here to make a greater effort. You
:23:19. > :23:24.cannot shove a square peg into a round hole without reshaping the
:23:24. > :23:34.peg a bit. That is where the emphasis should live. We have a
:23:34. > :23:37.
:23:37. > :23:42.call her now. Hassan, what is your view? I believe that Islam is being
:23:42. > :23:50.demonised but I would say it is not the fault of the British community
:23:50. > :24:00.who might have a sense of fear. That maybe because extremists are
:24:00. > :24:00.
:24:00. > :24:04.given a lot of time in media coverage. The majority of British
:24:04. > :24:11.people like us are not getting the media coverage and we should shout
:24:11. > :24:14.louder and get of voice across. The media could have a bit more
:24:14. > :24:24.responsibility in not covering the extremists, which they have been
:24:24. > :24:26.
:24:26. > :24:31.doing. As a Muslim, I still feel safe to be in Britain. More so than
:24:31. > :24:34.in America at the time of the attacks. We can get befuddled by
:24:34. > :24:40.their numbers game. There are an increasing number of Muslims and
:24:40. > :24:47.more people are eating a certain type of diet she Christine. I do
:24:47. > :24:52.not see that is relevant. This is a country built on certain Christian,
:24:52. > :24:56.Anglo-Saxon values or call them what you will. If we celebrate
:24:56. > :25:01.Christian -- Christmas here, does that mean that because more people
:25:01. > :25:08.are coming to this country who historically or culturally are not
:25:08. > :25:15.people who celebrate it, we should stop. Nobody is suggesting that.
:25:15. > :25:19.You didn't let me finish. Let us celebrate Christmas and Jewish the
:25:19. > :25:24.celebrations but there is nothing wrong in recognising that Britain
:25:24. > :25:32.has changed fault Matt -- fundamentally and it is
:25:32. > :25:37.multicultural. If you have a Christian society and suddenly
:25:37. > :25:42.under at the quality and diversity laws, Christianity is treated as
:25:42. > :25:45.equal to all other religions then it ceases to be a Christiane
:25:45. > :25:53.society and a multicultural society that -- Society card co-exist with
:25:53. > :25:57.that. That is an argument based on creating a monoculture. That is not
:25:57. > :26:03.the 21st century of Britain in which we live. It is multicultural.
:26:03. > :26:08.There are Muslims, Jews, Hindus and people of no faith. This is the
:26:08. > :26:12.beauty of our country. Angela raised the point that the Muslim
:26:12. > :26:18.population has increased but you argument is that there is no place
:26:18. > :26:24.for Muslims? Increasingly, the Culture, the reporting, the
:26:24. > :26:29.institutional barriers, the arrests, the detention without trial, the
:26:29. > :26:39.whole culture is such that... increases in the population show
:26:39. > :26:42.that that is not what people in the community feel. I call people to
:26:42. > :26:47.come involve -- be involved in politics but you are creating an
:26:47. > :26:52.environment to say, no matter how much you talk about integration you
:26:52. > :26:59.have people on the right and left to say no matter what you do you
:26:59. > :27:04.were not be accepted. People have come to this country over many
:27:04. > :27:08.centuries because they like the way we govern it. If you come to a
:27:08. > :27:16.place because you like the way it is run, it seems odd to seek to
:27:16. > :27:23.change it. I want to talk to someone who is an immigrant --
:27:23. > :27:27.immigrant and she is an author. I wonder if you feel there is a
:27:27. > :27:34.special intolerance that is reserved for Muslims that does not
:27:35. > :27:39.apply to other immigrants? I think There is a wariness about Muslims
:27:39. > :27:43.precisely because it is from their part of the community that can the
:27:43. > :27:50.people who blow us up. I was in London as an immigrant during the
:27:50. > :28:00.time the IRA were blowing up British people and there were a lot
:28:00. > :28:01.
:28:01. > :28:09.of whingeing and angry Irish, very much like - well, -- very much like
:28:09. > :28:14.Ajmal Masroor, demanding that... And it was absurd. It was the Irish
:28:14. > :28:17.blowing up the Brits and it was perfectly reasonable that Muslims
:28:17. > :28:24.like the Irish then we getting special attention. The point I
:28:24. > :28:28.would like to make, and I am with Angela on this, it is the job of
:28:28. > :28:34.the immigrants to adapt to the host community. More than that, it is
:28:34. > :28:40.the job of Muslims now, as it was the job of the Irish, to stand up
:28:40. > :28:50.taller and say we will have no part of this. We reject it. The Muslims
:28:50. > :29:01.
:29:01. > :29:05.are not doing that enough. Thank you. We can now talk to a rabbi. We
:29:05. > :29:11.do it abject to the constant Labour link of individuals as Jews in the
:29:11. > :29:19.same way that There is a sort of constant focus on Muslims and their
:29:19. > :29:25.faith? Yes, I think I would object but there would be he a certain
:29:25. > :29:31.justice to it. As an American who has lived here for 13 years and who
:29:31. > :29:40.became a naturalised British citizen, I have a certain view on
:29:40. > :29:49.this. When dues misbehave, it pains all Jews with a nasty brush --
:29:49. > :29:56.paints. Jews have to stand up against it. When the Israeli do of
:29:56. > :30:04.American origin committed a crime, but our synagogue, we had a rally
:30:04. > :30:14.of Jews for atonement and for apology to Islam and to Muslims for
:30:14. > :30:18.
:30:18. > :30:22.the terrible thing that they had We need to stand up to our own
:30:22. > :30:30.terrorists we all have them. There is a certain percentage of every
:30:31. > :30:34.society, of every group, which is, which is authoritarian, which is
:30:34. > :30:42.bigoted, and each group has to stand up and of course the total
:30:42. > :30:49.society has o stand up against them. I want to squeeze in Dr Chris Allen
:30:49. > :30:53.who is a research fellow. The criticism is laid at Islam by some
:30:53. > :30:58.for the extremist and we have heard the criticism of those with Islam
:30:58. > :31:03.who don't stand up to the extremists, how do Muslims deal
:31:03. > :31:07.with that? Well, one of the interesting things is just this
:31:07. > :31:11.weekend 57 British Muslim organisations have signed up to a
:31:11. > :31:14.statement distancing themselves from the 9/11 attacks and saying
:31:14. > :31:19.they have no truck whatsoever with the ex treebgist, the Terry has do
:31:19. > :31:24.things in the name of Islam. The British Muslim organisations have
:31:24. > :31:27.been doing this for well over a decade now, even before 9/11 they
:31:27. > :31:31.were distancing themselves from things going on that had lit toll
:31:31. > :31:35.do with them whatsoever. So I think there is that question, how much
:31:35. > :31:39.more to British Muslims need to do? There is an interesting thing that
:31:39. > :31:43.the Rabbi said in terms of standing up against their own extremist, it
:31:43. > :31:47.is an interesting question to ask, do we as white British people,
:31:47. > :31:51.stand up against groups such as the British national party and the
:31:51. > :31:55.English Defence League, who I would describe as being extremist who are
:31:55. > :32:00.putting forward a message, that Muslims don't want to integrate
:32:00. > :32:04.into this country, they are trying to Islam fi Britain. Some of the
:32:04. > :32:08.argument has have come out this morning feed into the rhetoric of
:32:08. > :32:13.the EDL. So people in society that, are just sitting there and
:32:13. > :32:18.listening to them begin to see some sense or they think the. DL make
:32:18. > :32:23.sense. This feeds into this climate. It is kind of a vicious cycle.
:32:23. > :32:27.do you tackle that? One of the things is to stop demonising
:32:27. > :32:32.Muslims and stop asking unrealistic demands of them. Some of the things
:32:32. > :32:36.we asked this morning, you said at the start three million good
:32:36. > :32:41.British citizen, how many of them those have been involved in
:32:41. > :32:44.terrorism, a small minority. It is right we put this emphasis on the
:32:44. > :32:49.whole of the Muslim community to take some responsibility for that,
:32:49. > :32:55.which is untenable. There is good analogy of this, earlier in the
:32:55. > :32:58.debate there was a suggestion that 19 Muslims who undertook the 9/11
:32:58. > :33:03.attacks were some way representative of a billion Muslims
:33:03. > :33:12.round the world. If we make the same sort of judgment in terms of
:33:12. > :33:15.that. The Norwegian would suggest all Norwegian wants are far right
:33:15. > :33:23.extremists and we don't make that leap of faith. It is questionable
:33:23. > :33:25.as to why we do ha with Muslims. don't think anybody said they were
:33:25. > :33:32.representative. I don't think anybody thinks it either. Nothing
:33:32. > :33:38.of the kind was saying.. All other Muslims would need to distance
:33:38. > :33:41.themselves from that. I don't see why we ask it of Muslims. The we
:33:41. > :33:46.belong to a cultural group, whatever it is and whatever you
:33:46. > :33:56.want to be, as long as you integrate nicely as well, you have
:33:56. > :33:57.
:33:57. > :34:01.a certain moral responsibility. OK. I after 7/7 bombing in London... We
:34:01. > :34:05.have been doing it until with are blue in the face. The problem is,
:34:05. > :34:08.my guests and friends here, no matter what I do, they have
:34:08. > :34:13.something else and that is they don't want multiculturalism. They
:34:13. > :34:19.don't want a society where all religions and faiths. We do. That
:34:19. > :34:24.is the problem. Just a final... This is a Christian society and it
:34:24. > :34:34.should remain as such. It is not true. That is the text poll today.
:34:34. > :34:42.
:34:42. > :34:48.Are Muslims being demonised. If you You have round 20 minutes before
:34:48. > :34:52.the poll closes. As we speak, families and friends of those who
:34:52. > :34:57.died on 9/11 are gathering to remember them, both in the UK and
:34:57. > :35:03.later at Ground Zero. The mare of New York hasn't invited religious
:35:03. > :35:06.leaders to lead prayers. Is that the right decision? Now you three
:35:06. > :35:10.all have made it clear you are people of faith. The fact that
:35:10. > :35:14.there are not going to be faith leaders at Ground Zero today, Peter,
:35:14. > :35:18.how does that strike you? strikes me as very strange indeed
:35:18. > :35:22.and regrettable, because apart from anything else the question which
:35:22. > :35:28.religion seeks to answer is the question which confronts us all of
:35:28. > :35:31.death. What it is -- what its sieve cans is. Whether there is anything
:35:31. > :35:36.after it. Whether someone's life ends at death. It seems to me in
:35:36. > :35:39.the commemoration of life the ability to offer some hope their
:35:39. > :35:44.life has some eternal significance is very important, not just for
:35:44. > :35:48.those who have lost them, but for a society as a whole, it its
:35:49. > :35:54.understanding of what people we are. I think it is a regrettable retreat
:35:54. > :35:59.in in the case of New Yorkers, a regrettable retreat from what has
:35:59. > :36:04.seen to be a religious society in the US. Ajmal, the explanation is
:36:04. > :36:10.they want to focus on the victims and their families. Do they not
:36:10. > :36:14.want to focus on ridge unat this moment? Strangely think it is a
:36:14. > :36:19.good thing, keeping them out of a private ceremony where people are
:36:19. > :36:26.coming to commemorate the loved ones: For you to reach God or be
:36:26. > :36:30.spiritual or reflect on eternity, u you don't need a cleric, you have
:36:30. > :36:35.access yourself. I think it a good thing. It would be be a decorative
:36:35. > :36:37.impact. It would not do much for me if someone dies in my family I want
:36:37. > :36:44.something private. Especially years on. I want to remember them by
:36:44. > :36:49.myself. So I say, I am with them, the families, and I don't want to
:36:49. > :36:53.politicise, it is me saying goodbye, remembering people, playing for o -
:36:53. > :36:59.- praying for them. I think it's a good thing. A private ceremony is
:36:59. > :37:04.what this not going to be. No, it is not. Don't be shocked. I agree
:37:04. > :37:08.with you. I think it would somehow undermine the fact that this was a
:37:08. > :37:12.huge human tragedy, on a scale we hadn't seen before, or the like of
:37:13. > :37:17.which we hadn't seen before in terms of audacity and the way it
:37:17. > :37:21.was mounted and the way the world changed as a consequence of it. To
:37:21. > :37:27.marginalise it in any way by bringing in religious leaders could
:37:27. > :37:32.detract from the message. The chief Rab brie prepared a prayer to
:37:32. > :37:36.commemorate the victims, because this was a human tragedy.
:37:36. > :37:40.Individual religions can make their own kind of tribute to the victims
:37:40. > :37:43.in their places of worship, but this was on the grand tapestry of
:37:43. > :37:49.human tragedy, this was something that was all inclusive, and would
:37:49. > :37:55.have been too limiting. We will discuss, sorry. In my mosque I
:37:55. > :37:59.prayed for everybody, including people in Libya and Syria and 9/11
:37:59. > :38:04.as well as those who have lost their lives in Norway, so it is a
:38:04. > :38:12.cross faith like Laing said and we should keep it Private. We will
:38:12. > :38:17.discuss the consequence of 9/11 later. You have been voting in our
:38:18. > :38:21.text poll. We asked are Muslims being demonised. The poll is being
:38:21. > :38:31.Klos t now so please don't text. We will bring you the result at the
:38:31. > :38:32.
:38:32. > :38:37.Not in my name said a million who took to the streets but Tony Blair
:38:37. > :38:42.took us into the war on terror any way. Ten years on, it looks to many
:38:42. > :38:47.like a war without end. Even as the memorial services make the news, so
:38:47. > :38:53.too does a high alert for another bomb attack. But terrorism expert
:38:53. > :38:57.Robin Simcox says we were right to fight then and now. The war on
:38:57. > :39:06.terror was the right response to 9/11. It is working, and Britain is
:39:06. > :39:10.right to be involved. It is the best way to stop global terrorism.
:39:10. > :39:15.Britain's links to Al-Qaeda inspired terrorism go back nearly
:39:15. > :39:19.two decades. Throughout the 1990s hundreds of Brits fired up by
:39:19. > :39:22.radical ideology fought in the likes of Kashmir and Afghanistan.
:39:22. > :39:28.Yet this growing problem was essentially ignore by the British
:39:28. > :39:34.political class. Then, on September 11th, Al-Qaeda massacred 3,000
:39:34. > :39:37.innocent civilians in a matter of minutes. A clear declaration of war.
:39:37. > :39:43.A robust western response was required. Not just launching
:39:43. > :39:47.missiles from thousands of feet and hope poring the best as we had done
:39:47. > :39:51.previously but dismantling terrorist networks. Britain joined
:39:51. > :39:54.NATO allies in overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan. A
:39:54. > :39:58.Government which allowed Al-Qaeda training camps, and a country which
:39:58. > :40:03.had been used as a base from which to attack America. Yet the nature
:40:03. > :40:09.of the threat as it revealed itself on 9/11 changed the way Britain and
:40:09. > :40:13.America saw the world. There were huge problems in Iraq, but at least
:40:13. > :40:17.now the country can look forward to a more optimistic future. What
:40:17. > :40:22.would happen if a regime that supported terrorism and had a
:40:22. > :40:26.history of using chemical and biological weapons against its own
:40:26. > :40:32.people decided to give those weapons to terrorists that would
:40:32. > :40:36.kill en masse. It was this that led Britain into Iraq. Al-Qaeda started
:40:36. > :40:40.this war against the west. But it misjudged our resolve. The
:40:40. > :40:45.leadership had been killed. The ideology is bankrupt and its morale
:40:45. > :40:50.is low. We are winning. A none military response to 9/11 would
:40:50. > :40:57.have been a victory for global terrorism. Yes, it has cost us
:40:57. > :41:02.British lives and tax payers' money, but the sacrifice has been worth it.
:41:02. > :41:05.And Robin Simcox joins us. We are joined by Mehdi Hasan and the
:41:05. > :41:11.American political commentator Charlie Wolfful you can join in by
:41:11. > :41:16.webcam or make your point by phone, text or e-mail or on line. Wouldn't
:41:16. > :41:21.it be a nightmare if we were facing a nuclear armed Taliban? Yes, let
:41:21. > :41:25.us not forget, it is our misconceived and counter productive
:41:25. > :41:30.war on terror which has heightened the threat from the Taliban which
:41:30. > :41:36.exacerbated the threat from Al- Qaeda, which has acted as
:41:36. > :41:41.recruiting side. -- arjaant. We have created over the last ten
:41:41. > :41:46.years far more tourists than we have killed or capture and the war
:41:46. > :41:50.on terror has given us more war and terror. What was the right response
:41:50. > :41:55.to planes going into towers and killing 3,000 people? The first
:41:55. > :41:59.point is the war on terror, you have to understand why it was the
:41:59. > :42:06.wrong response, you don't declare war on terrorism, on a method on a
:42:06. > :42:11.tactic and you don't give inmis. War on terrorists then. What Bush
:42:11. > :42:13.and Blair gave enemies, they gave them what they craved most, status
:42:14. > :42:18.of holy warrior, they are not warrior, they were criminals and
:42:18. > :42:21.they should have been treated as criminals. That has been the most
:42:21. > :42:26.successful way of dealing with terrorists. We gifted Bin Laden
:42:26. > :42:30.with the war that he was after. we, what we did, if you look back
:42:30. > :42:33.on history it didn't start with 9/11 and we treated them as
:42:34. > :42:38.criminals, prior to that. One of the things that Bin Laden thought
:42:38. > :42:42.was America was a paper tiger and he spoke very movingly about the
:42:42. > :42:47.strong horse and the weak horse. He wanted a battle and we did respond.
:42:47. > :42:50.I don't think it necessarily created terrorists but it did bring
:42:50. > :42:53.Jihadist and terrorists, fast forward to Iraq, it brought them
:42:53. > :42:58.there, where we killed them. I think that was the right thing tho
:42:58. > :43:01.do we had to respond, and I think the proof of the pudding is in the
:43:01. > :43:05.eating. It brought them to London, it brought them to all sorts of
:43:05. > :43:10.places round the world. This idea they will go to Iraq, we will fight
:43:10. > :43:13.them there. In America we are told there is a terror alefrt. There are
:43:13. > :43:20.three Al-Qaeda operatives allegedly running round the streets of
:43:20. > :43:25.America. The body scanners and that are working, the reason we know
:43:25. > :43:29.about them is we have a more robust intelligence service, one of the
:43:29. > :43:32.things the Patriot Act did was allowed the CIA to talk to the FBI
:43:32. > :43:40.so we have a knowledge of the threats so we can fight them. We
:43:40. > :43:45.are aware of them. You defend the war on terror, former head of MI5
:43:45. > :43:51.said, it became a recruiting sergeant for terrorists,
:43:51. > :43:55.particularly the invasion of Iraq. The ex-CIA member who was tasked
:43:55. > :44:01.with finding Bin Laden, said "We moved Al-Qaeda on from being a man
:44:01. > :44:06.and a group, to being a philosophy and a movement." Did the war on
:44:06. > :44:10.terror create a war on terror? don't think so stkwhroi o separate
:44:10. > :44:14.Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan, there was no real credible
:44:14. > :44:17.alternative to getting involved, dismantling the terrorist training
:44:17. > :44:22.camps that were based in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda weren't going
:44:22. > :44:26.to do this if we asked nicely. It has to be a military response.
:44:26. > :44:33.Afghanistan a safer place as a result? It certainly has less Al-
:44:33. > :44:36.Qaeda training caps -- camps. is more violence though. It is
:44:37. > :44:43.being attacked by suicide bombers who are trying to hold back. The
:44:43. > :44:46.forces of democracy the things people voted for. We displaced
:44:46. > :44:51.terrorist from Afghanistan to elsewhere. That is why we are
:44:51. > :44:56.bombing Pakistan with drone attack, the idea you can bomb terrorism out
:44:56. > :45:00.of existence is ab -- absurd. there is more to the argument than
:45:00. > :45:06.that. Bush said it would take a long time, ten to 20 years an he
:45:06. > :45:09.did say, he talked about a freedom agenda, bringing freedom to
:45:09. > :45:14.countries where they would not be oppressed. That I have a chance now.
:45:14. > :45:24.Our war on terror has reduced freedom in the wofrpltd it gave us
:45:24. > :45:33.
:45:33. > :45:43.If we go from the base and say that Iraq was partial leak wedded lies
:45:43. > :45:46.
:45:46. > :45:50.in certain sections -- partially radicalisation. Do we not backed
:45:50. > :46:00.because there is a fee that it may radicalisation a minority of the
:46:00. > :46:04.
:46:04. > :46:09.minority? That is having foreign policy held hostage to mass opinion.
:46:09. > :46:12.How did the invasion of Iraq further the purposes of the war on
:46:13. > :46:17.terror? It was taken from a view that
:46:17. > :46:23.Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons and the fear he would pass them on
:46:23. > :46:29.to groups such as Al-Qaeda. The threat perception shifted and
:46:29. > :46:33.regimes seen as containable all of a sudden were not. One major
:46:33. > :46:38.General is the format UK head of reconstruction in Iraq. What effect
:46:38. > :46:43.did the war have on the ground in Iraq? I would like to make a couple
:46:43. > :46:49.of comments. We need to see this within the context of what happened.
:46:49. > :46:53.Since the end of the Cold War, the ongoing terrorist attacks
:46:53. > :46:59.throughout those years also and in that time I was involved in a
:46:59. > :47:07.number of those conflicts, from Northern Ireland to Iraq and the
:47:07. > :47:12.first Gulf War. What I black -- began to realise is whether it is
:47:12. > :47:18.Catholics all Muslims, we have people essentially involved in
:47:18. > :47:23.engaging in power and greed. There are no goodies or baddies and
:47:23. > :47:28.terror has been a constant throughout. The war on terror was
:47:28. > :47:36.like declaring a war on sin or greed. It was a fine objective but
:47:36. > :47:41.it was naive that we could raise his victory flag. In that context,
:47:41. > :47:46.is Iraq or Afghanistan achieving anything? In many respects the
:47:46. > :47:50.answer is yes and No. We have got rid of brutal regimes and people
:47:50. > :47:54.and I sense that what is happening in the Middle East and the Arab
:47:54. > :48:04.world is at least partially as a result of that. But have we
:48:04. > :48:06.
:48:06. > :48:12.defeated terrorism, or --? No, it hasn't. One person who has seen the
:48:12. > :48:17.effects directly is one after aren't woman. Is it a safe place to
:48:17. > :48:24.be as a result of the war on terror? First of all, I should say
:48:25. > :48:32.that no doubt 9/11 was a very sad day. After the troops left
:48:32. > :48:38.Afghanistan, it was abandoned by the international community and
:48:38. > :48:45.foreign groups were then in Afghanistan. I if millions of
:48:45. > :48:51.Afghan -- millions of Afghan women, it was a good thing for them
:48:51. > :48:56.because they could go to school, go back to work or they could
:48:56. > :49:04.literally come out of their homes that they were imprisoned in during
:49:04. > :49:09.the Taliban. Where are we 10 years after? No one can say that no
:49:09. > :49:15.progress has been made in Afghanistan. The billions of pounds
:49:15. > :49:25.spent in Afghanistan and as eight from the international community...
:49:25. > :49:32.Fortunately, since 2004 and 2005, I have travelled to Afghanistan
:49:32. > :49:41.constant leak, and schools and hospitals have been built. Robin,
:49:41. > :49:50.your son was the 300 skilled -- soldier killed in the Afghan war.
:49:50. > :49:59.Does this make you think it was a war that was worth fighting?
:50:00. > :50:06.initial response to 9/11 was right. However, the phrase "war on terror"
:50:06. > :50:11.is clearly not a good phrase to use. The initial response was great but
:50:11. > :50:17.we then had a vacuum where the diversion of Iraq took place. All
:50:17. > :50:23.the progress that should have been made in Afghanistan to stabilise
:50:23. > :50:29.that country and build on the progress being made was lost whilst
:50:29. > :50:36.the war on Iraq the war -- diverted attention. You then moving to the
:50:36. > :50:45.stage where we going to Helmand province in 2006 and we failed in
:50:45. > :50:52.one of the mink - might military principles. We don't understand
:50:52. > :51:00.what the aim is. We should not be going to war to open schools or to
:51:00. > :51:05.open shops. Whilst those are symptoms of success, it is not
:51:05. > :51:11.success in it -- in its own right. I'm not sure we can define what
:51:11. > :51:15.success is. To come back to the idea that wars in Afghanistan and
:51:15. > :51:24.Iraq are linked to protecting ourselves from terrorism. We were
:51:24. > :51:28.in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting jihadist when we were in London in
:51:28. > :51:33.seven itsu. The bombers stated in their videos that the reason they
:51:33. > :51:39.attacked us was that we were over their attacking them. That goes
:51:39. > :51:45.back to the argument you cannot let you foreign policy being dictated.
:51:45. > :51:49.Every study shows occupation leads to terrorism. We had home-grown
:51:49. > :51:54.terrorism which has to be addressed and it doesn't have anything to do
:51:54. > :52:03.with British foreign policy. It was an excuse they used to validate it.
:52:03. > :52:07.Your last guest... Yes, there are arguments on tactics and strategy.
:52:07. > :52:11.I have friends who say we should have gone over there, propped them
:52:11. > :52:19.up and left. In answer to the argument about Iraq been a
:52:19. > :52:23.diversion. It wasn't to Osama Bin Laden. It was a central front about
:52:23. > :52:31.going back to Kuwait and the American troops presence in Saudi
:52:31. > :52:41.Arabia. It goes back even to 1000 years of history. I want to bring
:52:41. > :52:50.in... The 1990s, Brits were fighting in Chechenia, Bosnia and
:52:50. > :52:55.Afghanistan. It was in created by as due to 9/11. The phrase the war
:52:55. > :53:04.on terror is criticised. And it hasn't been used by the American
:53:04. > :53:10.government for five years. Robin finished. We can overstate
:53:10. > :53:15.the impact we are having on this. The on -- ideology has a movement
:53:15. > :53:18.that is independent of us. Maybe some of our foreign policy
:53:19. > :53:25.decisions aggravated but the idea it would disappear if we removed
:53:25. > :53:31.our troops from certain lands and stayed at home is bizarre. Let me
:53:31. > :53:36.ask Professor Paul Rodgers at Bradford University the question.
:53:36. > :53:41.With the war on terror, would it end if we beat Drew? I don't think
:53:41. > :53:46.it necessarily would. It was understandable the reaction of the
:53:46. > :53:51.Bush administration but the problem was it was faulty. I would agree
:53:51. > :53:55.that it should have been seen as an example of appalling mass
:53:55. > :54:00.transnational criminality. Consequences have to be factored in.
:54:00. > :54:07.There is clear evidence that 225,000 people have died in the
:54:07. > :54:10.last 10 years and nearly 8 million refugees. It has turned out so
:54:10. > :54:16.catastrophically different to what was expected that the argument
:54:16. > :54:22.being put, that it should have been treated as criminality, as was put
:54:22. > :54:26.by the head of MI5 last week, that has to be taken more seriously. We
:54:26. > :54:32.cannot extricate ourselves easily from this predicament but we have
:54:32. > :54:36.to recognise that the way this was set up as a war against terror
:54:36. > :54:43.basically elevated this nasty grouping to something greater and
:54:43. > :54:49.it was counter-productive. I have to disagree. I have Dean - Maxine
:54:49. > :54:54.this discussed. I don't know how fast the words "the war on terror"
:54:54. > :55:04.was come up with but 10 years later, governments are using it and so are
:55:04. > :55:11.
:55:11. > :55:15.we. But the term is a short and has worked. My family were killed -- is
:55:15. > :55:21.my family were killed by a drone strike I might want to take up arms
:55:21. > :55:29.against America. Here is an important thing. Why is it that, if
:55:29. > :55:32.all the stuff pushed it was wrong, we are at -- now have a Democratic
:55:32. > :55:38.Liberal President who said that Guantanamo Bay was a staying on the
:55:38. > :55:47.nation. It is kept open because it is a political reality and a
:55:47. > :55:53.necessity. We have to leave it. The poll vote is in. We asked at the
:55:53. > :55:57.beginning of the programme, we are Muslims being demonised? 28% of
:55:57. > :56:06.those who text did in agreed that they are being demonised in the UK
:56:06. > :56:12.to date whereas 72% said they are not. You are a Muslim. Do you feel
:56:12. > :56:18.demonised? Not personally. There is a case where British Muslims are
:56:18. > :56:23.being demonised. We still do have a great role and I would rather live
:56:23. > :56:28.here than in any other countries. I work in the media and if you look
:56:28. > :56:33.at the Muslims -- newspapers, you can now say things about Muslims
:56:33. > :56:38.you cannot say about any other minority group and that is a fact.
:56:38. > :56:42.If Britain was the place that has been suggested, there would be
:56:42. > :56:47.thousands of Muslims leaving. I don't think it is that type of
:56:47. > :56:52.place. It is a tolerant place where freedom of religion is entirely
:56:52. > :56:56.respected. I do not see this picture that has been put trade.
:56:56. > :57:02.And do you feel defined by your religion in the way that some
:57:02. > :57:09.Muslims do? It is quite interesting to note how much anti-Semitic crime
:57:09. > :57:16.has gone up in the last year. An event in Israel, which was and it -
:57:16. > :57:20.- a decision by the elected government - and attacks on Jews
:57:20. > :57:27.went up considerably. I n they have to look at the pages of the
:57:27. > :57:34.Guardian to see where the stars of David I used in political argument.
:57:34. > :57:38.You can't compare that to the daily coverage of British Muslims. I do
:57:38. > :57:43.wonder that is a discussion for another programme and we have to
:57:43. > :57:52.end now. Thank you all of you who helped us debate the legacy of 9/11
:57:52. > :57:57.today. To my studio guests and to Ajmal Masroor, Angela Epstein and
:57:57. > :58:00.are other guest who was with us earlier. You can continue his
:58:00. > :58:04.conversation on line and the links are on our website. Next week, we