:00:13. > :00:19.David Cameron says it is right high earners shoulder the financial
:00:19. > :00:29.burden. More people are facing cuts and employment. Should the rich pay
:00:29. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:45.Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Morning Live. It may come as a
:00:45. > :00:51.surprise but some of the super-rich say they would willingly pay more
:00:51. > :00:54.tax. Why don't we take them at their word? Christians are going to
:00:54. > :00:58.the European Court of Human Rights to complain about discrimination in
:00:58. > :01:04.Britain. The leader of the Christian Party has a controversial
:01:04. > :01:11.take on how we are persecuting the nation's established faith.
:01:11. > :01:16.what is the difference between the Nazi regime and the treatment of
:01:16. > :01:23.Christians in Britain today? Not much. Protesters are marching at
:01:23. > :01:29.the Tory conference, not against budget cuts but badger culls. Good
:01:29. > :01:33.sense or pure sentiment? My guests do not need anyone to stand up for
:01:33. > :01:36.them. Reverend George Hargreaves is the leader of the Christian party.
:01:36. > :01:40.He made a small fortune in the music business and moved to the
:01:40. > :01:46.Isle of Man so he could pay less tax on it. Peter Tatchell stood up
:01:46. > :01:53.to Robert a grubby with an attempted citizen's arrest. He has
:01:53. > :02:03.a new target - which tax avoiders. This woman was any 16 when she got
:02:03. > :02:15.
:02:15. > :02:19.her first book deal. -- only. We We have all had some fun giving
:02:19. > :02:25.bank is a bad name in the financial crisis. We are left with the mass.
:02:25. > :02:29.Average house would incomes are down by 6%. -- mess. Some of the
:02:29. > :02:35.super-rich have come at and said they are not paying their fair
:02:35. > :02:39.share. Is it time our politicians listened to them? It seems an
:02:39. > :02:44.extraordinary offer, some of the richest people in the world a
:02:44. > :02:49.campaigning to pay more tax. I am very happy to pay more tax while
:02:49. > :02:53.the UK is in difficulty. Many politicians agree. It is time for
:02:53. > :02:58.the financial sector to make a contribution back to society.
:02:58. > :03:02.Middle-class family should not pay higher taxes than millionairess.
:03:03. > :03:07.They have been taxed the same, regulated the same, treated the
:03:08. > :03:12.same, celebrated the same - they will not be by me. The Government
:03:12. > :03:16.has no plans to increase taxes for the rich. The Conservatives want to
:03:16. > :03:21.reduce them. During the boom years, taxing the rich was to book for
:03:21. > :03:27.those who believed the people taking the risks were entitled to
:03:27. > :03:33.the rewards. Britain is in a recession... For Evander up
:03:33. > :03:39.gambling in financial institutions had sparked an economic crisis. --
:03:39. > :03:44.then we found. If those who profited in the boom times, do they
:03:44. > :03:47.now have a duty to pay more to help? Why should government cuts
:03:47. > :03:53.hit the poorest hardest and not those who can technically afford it
:03:53. > :03:59.most? What if taxing the rich damages the economy even more?
:03:59. > :04:03.Should they keep their wealth to generate more jobs and growth?
:04:03. > :04:09.Taxing the rich could win votes but if it makes wealth generators moved
:04:09. > :04:16.to lower tax countries, could we all lose out? With some of the mega
:04:16. > :04:22.rich asking to pay more tax, is it time we took up that offer? Peter,
:04:22. > :04:27.that offer is on the table. Should we take it up? With great wealth
:04:27. > :04:31.comes great responsibility. Those who have fabulous wealth - multi-
:04:31. > :04:41.billionaire's - of course they should pay more tax. That is our
:04:41. > :04:47.
:04:47. > :04:51.question this morning. Do the rich We'll show you how you voted at the
:04:51. > :04:57.end of the programme. Reverend George Hargreaves, you made what
:04:57. > :05:00.some might think was a fabulous amount of wealth out of your pop
:05:00. > :05:06.career. You then moved to an area where you might not have to pay so
:05:06. > :05:15.much tax. I have no regrets and I will do it again. Do the rich pay
:05:15. > :05:19.more tax? They do. If you pay 50% of �1 million, that is �500,000.
:05:20. > :05:28.Pound for pound, they pay more. The point made in the film is
:05:28. > :05:36.absolutely right. If you take the Faber see which too high, they will
:05:36. > :05:42.just go. -- tax the fabulously rich. I would rather pay an air fare and
:05:42. > :05:47.have control of my money than pay tax. The DG not feel a moral duty,
:05:47. > :05:54.or perhaps a religious duty to share your wealth with those who
:05:54. > :06:00.needed it? -- did you not feel? I was employing 25 people in North
:06:00. > :06:04.London. I was contributing by doing business. That is how the rich
:06:04. > :06:08.contribute - by doing business in Britain. If you drive them away,
:06:08. > :06:14.you can do business from a laptop anywhere in the world, you're going
:06:14. > :06:18.to lose net gain for the country. Tilly have a duty not to tax the
:06:18. > :06:24.money the rich would put into promoting jobs, paying wages and
:06:24. > :06:29.salaries? We are absolutely at the crunch point in terms of global
:06:29. > :06:34.economics. If you push the rich to match, as the Conservatives have
:06:34. > :06:38.always said, the Conservative Party is about conserving map -- wealth
:06:38. > :06:44.amongst those people with it, they would just go elsewhere. There is
:06:44. > :06:52.tremendous opposition to what the coalition government has done to
:06:52. > :06:55.the economy. It has cut of services to new mothers, kits, new families,
:06:55. > :07:02.people who are just about struggling. This and affordability
:07:02. > :07:06.of housing - the cutting of public sector jobs. You have an issue with
:07:06. > :07:14.the cuts that you think there burgeon should be placed on the
:07:14. > :07:19.super-rich? -- but do you think? Yes. We're trying to yield money to
:07:19. > :07:25.save a broken economy. We need to go where the money is. You do not
:07:25. > :07:29.do that by punishing people who are already in want and in need. Some
:07:29. > :07:34.of those super-rich are putting their heads above the parapet and
:07:34. > :07:41.saying, this is OK. The assumption has always been, the super-rich do
:07:41. > :07:48.not want to let go... Let's talk about the wealth. The richest 10%
:07:48. > :07:54.of the British population have a combined personal wealth off 4
:07:54. > :08:02.million million pounds. That is �1 million multiplied by 4 million
:08:02. > :08:08.times. They buy houses worth 50 million and �100 million. Private
:08:08. > :08:14.yachts and planes. You have mentioned the richest 10%. Nearly
:08:14. > :08:22.all of them avoid tax. Nearly all of them had various scams and
:08:22. > :08:27.schemes to avoid paying tax. When it comes to avoiding tax, I am all
:08:27. > :08:32.for, as Margaret Thatcher said, tax-dodging is wrong. Those
:08:32. > :08:42.loophole should be closed down. It should be done by simplifying the
:08:42. > :08:42.
:08:42. > :10:06.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 84 seconds
:10:06. > :10:10.The lower your tax the rich, the more they pay? The one thing that
:10:10. > :10:14.is very interesting is that the rich are very generous when they
:10:14. > :10:17.want to be. Nobody wants to feel as though they are having their arm
:10:17. > :10:21.twisted by the Government into yielding what they see as their
:10:21. > :10:26.very hard earned money. I am not saying that those who are self-made
:10:26. > :10:31.are not also extremely talented, extremely dynamic when it comes to
:10:31. > :10:35.making money, but they don't want to be forced to give it up. So if
:10:35. > :10:38.you lower the tax rate, they are more co-operative? I don't want to
:10:38. > :10:46.make any argument for lowering the tax rate are the rich, but they
:10:46. > :10:51.have to make the door open for people who think they can pay more.
:10:51. > :10:56.You see, the big problem is, who do we give our money to? The rich and
:10:56. > :11:00.people do not like giving money to government, who are profligate, who
:11:00. > :11:06.wasted, O build... I don't know, fire stations that don't get used.
:11:06. > :11:11.They think, if I am giving my money to this lot, it is a waste of money.
:11:11. > :11:15.Would you support an increase in tax if it was targeted? I would not.
:11:15. > :11:21.The system needs to be simpler. The reason we get tax avoidance scams,
:11:21. > :11:25.as Peter calls them, is because it is so complex and there are
:11:25. > :11:29.loopholes that are so complex. Make it simple, a flat tax, and we know
:11:29. > :11:34.exactly what we pay every year. would like to give a practical
:11:34. > :11:44.proposal to solve the government deficit and the national debt.
:11:44. > :11:49.
:11:49. > :11:53.If we taxed the richest 10% - people who have the combined
:11:53. > :11:59.personal wealth of 4 million million pounds - if we tax them on
:11:59. > :12:08.a one-off tax of 20%, that would clear most of the national debt and
:12:08. > :12:14.the Government deficit. We would be out of the mire we're in. A one-off
:12:14. > :12:19.one year tax! What would be the response to that? People will find
:12:19. > :12:24.ways to get bad of pain that one of tax. At the moment to have a lot of
:12:24. > :12:29.complex structures for tax avoidance. The Government tries to
:12:29. > :12:36.crack down on this but they are always ways around them. That
:12:36. > :12:39.culture is endemic. You are much better to say, if there is an
:12:39. > :12:47.incentive to claim more tax from the rich, that would encourage them
:12:47. > :12:52.to give more. What is in it for the rich to pay those taxes? The former
:12:52. > :12:57.head of the CBI joins us this morning. A very good morning. I am
:12:57. > :13:04.sure you have been listening to what has been said so far. Do you
:13:04. > :13:09.have a moral duty to pay more? was a very interesting debate. The
:13:09. > :13:13.text question to your viewers is too simplistic. Most people will
:13:13. > :13:22.say, we are in the mire, should the rich pay more taxes, most people
:13:22. > :13:26.would say yes. It is too simplistic. What this debate is so interesting
:13:26. > :13:31.about his you have the factual analysis that the rich has produced
:13:31. > :13:35.the most money for the nation, either by way of employment or
:13:35. > :13:42.taxation, the problem is on squeezed middle Brittain, is it
:13:42. > :13:50.fair the rate for somebody on a -- on �200,000 a year the same as �200
:13:50. > :13:58.million a year. The answer is, no, it is not. I'm not a wealthy man.
:13:58. > :14:07.My mother and dad gave me love and enthusiasm and no money. I have no
:14:07. > :14:11.problem in hypothecated in a tax rise from 50% to 50% -- 55%, if
:14:11. > :14:17.that took everyone on the national minimum wage in Brittain out of
:14:17. > :14:24.taxation. Have we could save the lower paid would pay no tax and
:14:24. > :14:32.there would be a staggering it would taper off overnight. They
:14:32. > :14:37.will spend that money. I would have no problem. I am absolutely with
:14:37. > :14:41.the guy who said, I do not trust these people to spend my money
:14:41. > :14:45.wisely. I am a crossbench peer. I have never belonged to a political
:14:45. > :14:50.party and never will. I do not trust politicians and civil
:14:50. > :14:56.servants to spend my money wisely. If somebody hypothecated, I would
:14:56. > :15:04.happily pay more tax while the nation is in the state it is in if
:15:04. > :15:11.I could take the low paid out if I could get power stations built and
:15:11. > :15:17.apprenticeships happening so that younger people get a skill in life.
:15:17. > :15:21.I think the moral question is that those who are better off should pay
:15:21. > :15:28.more whilst the country is been a problem. If they have a guarantee
:15:28. > :15:34.of where it goes and people it goes to. Do not worry about if someone
:15:35. > :15:43.goes to the Isle of Man. Worry about the child in Bangalore. That
:15:43. > :15:47.is a statistic you will never hear Nicholas Smith of the TUC, you
:15:47. > :15:53.would have no issue with that proposal, would you? A rich people
:15:53. > :15:58.should pay more tax. We are facing a crisis in our finances, and the
:15:58. > :16:01.50p tax rate is forecast to raise 12.6 billion. I do not accept these
:16:01. > :16:08.arguments about people leaving the country. There is no evidence that
:16:08. > :16:12.it happens. Come on! There is. you could show me some statistics.
:16:12. > :16:17.Let me finish, if there is an issue with avoidance, we need to crack
:16:18. > :16:22.down more. I agree with that. one moment, we will come back to
:16:22. > :16:27.you, but, George, what is the evidence? The evidence is that you
:16:27. > :16:33.are seeing hedge funds, head of this is moving to Switzerland and
:16:33. > :16:39.other low-tax places. -- head offices. We have a school and
:16:39. > :16:44.London. We received 30 computers from a City firm that has just
:16:44. > :16:48.downsized because it is better elsewhere. They are leaving town.
:16:48. > :16:52.Actually, well, anybody can provide statistics, I would be interested,
:16:52. > :16:56.but the changing exchange rate in Switzerland will affect the incomes
:16:56. > :17:00.of anyone moving there far more than a change in the tax rate. We
:17:00. > :17:04.have to think about the argument of whether people are motivated more
:17:04. > :17:08.or less by higher tax rates. At the bottom of society, some of the
:17:08. > :17:14.people we have talked about, going from benefits into a minimum-wage
:17:14. > :17:18.job, they only took about 20-40% of their income as a move into work.
:17:18. > :17:24.That should be changed. With luck that in our manifesto, to change
:17:24. > :17:28.that. Will you let her finish? Sometimes I invite you to, please
:17:28. > :17:33.carry on. If I could continue, thank you, working for about �100
:17:33. > :17:37.extra per week. Someone on a very high tax rate will be working for
:17:37. > :17:42.several thousand pounds extra per week. They are very well rewarded
:17:42. > :17:46.for their efforts. I think that a small change that a few present
:17:46. > :17:50.would not have a significant impact on their motivation. That is not
:17:50. > :17:55.based on economic reality. One Tex says we should have a system where
:17:55. > :18:01.the rich have a choice to pay a higher tax level, and it could be
:18:01. > :18:05.shown to the public. -- text. Neil Cooper is from Church Action on
:18:05. > :18:09.poverty. I wonder if you could give us an idea on the ground about the
:18:10. > :18:14.kind of work that you are doing, the kind of people you are meeting,
:18:14. > :18:18.the kind of hardship people are facing. We are working with people
:18:18. > :18:23.in poor communities across the country, people who are really
:18:23. > :18:29.struggling. People at the bottom, for then it is a choice of he'd
:18:29. > :18:34.copied, can you actually afford to put a meal on the table and heat
:18:34. > :18:37.your home? For many families, that is not possible. Families turn off
:18:37. > :18:42.their electricity during the day because they cannot afford their
:18:42. > :18:49.bills. Families dread holidays, because they do not get free school
:18:49. > :18:53.meals, and they cannot afford to give their kids three meals a day.
:18:53. > :18:58.George, I am hearing news saying, yes, yes, to all of that, but you
:18:58. > :19:03.do not want the tax rates to change follows with the broadest shoulders,
:19:03. > :19:09.say some, in order to help those people. The gloss to have put an
:19:09. > :19:13.end is not correct. It doesn't work. I want to see stuff that works. My
:19:13. > :19:18.church is in Hackney, and we educate people for free, we give
:19:18. > :19:22.out donations to the homeless, I did one on Friday before I left
:19:22. > :19:26.town. One of the things with our Christian Party Charitable Trust,
:19:26. > :19:29.we have the super-rich in the money because they know what we are going
:19:29. > :19:36.to do with it. They know it is really going to hit those people in
:19:36. > :19:40.need. Peter Tatchell, when asked in a poll, 40% of people say they
:19:40. > :19:48.would keep the 50% tax rate even if it does not raise more revenue. I
:19:48. > :19:53.want to put this question to you. Is that economics, or is that some
:19:53. > :19:58.sort of envy, resentment, anger with the rich that feeds into a
:19:59. > :20:02.narrative? No, it is about an ethical consideration, a moral
:20:02. > :20:07.decision that those who have fabulous wealth ought to pay their
:20:07. > :20:10.fair share. You know, the argument that if we raise the tax rate,
:20:10. > :20:14.these people will leave, well, some of them might, and I say good
:20:14. > :20:20.riddance to them. Hang on, let me finish, you have interrupted me
:20:20. > :20:27.every time I have spoken. Let me let you, then! Going to police is
:20:27. > :20:33.not much fun. The bollard in London and other big cities because of the
:20:33. > :20:37.culture and contribution. -- people are in London. They do not want to
:20:37. > :20:40.go to police for a tax break. We want to say loud and clear that
:20:40. > :20:44.those people are not being patriotic, they are betraying this
:20:45. > :20:48.country, they are traitors to our economy and our society. Those who
:20:48. > :20:55.put their personal wealth before the good of the country are
:20:55. > :21:01.traitors! I need to let Bidisha say her final word. What has come out
:21:01. > :21:04.of this, speaking to the excellent comments from Nicola Cooper, is the
:21:04. > :21:07.sheer difference there is between the lives of the very rich and the
:21:07. > :21:13.lives and realities of the very poor. I completely agree with the
:21:13. > :21:17.very rich people who say, I do not trust government. You do not have
:21:17. > :21:23.to, money should not be politicised, but it needs to go where it must be,
:21:23. > :21:27.housing, health, childcare, medical care, supporting new families,
:21:27. > :21:32.supporting children, education. I just say the last biblical thing?
:21:32. > :21:38.To those who have given much, much is expected. It does not have to
:21:38. > :21:46.come through the tax system. That is our text poll question today. To
:21:46. > :21:56.the rich have a moral duty to pay more tax? -- do the rich? Texts
:21:56. > :21:57.
:21:58. > :22:02.will be charged at a standard Now, why shouldn't an air hostess
:22:02. > :22:06.where a crucifix around her neck, or a counsellor decide that in all
:22:06. > :22:10.conscience he cannot counsel gay couples? Aren't those basic human
:22:10. > :22:15.rights? That is what Christians are asking the European Court of Human
:22:15. > :22:18.Rights to decide. Do they have God on their side? They certainly have
:22:18. > :22:23.the Reverend George Hargreaves. hope you are all opposed to
:22:23. > :22:28.religious persecution. Persecution usually starts with small
:22:28. > :22:35.restrictions. Hitler started his religious persecution with banning
:22:35. > :22:38.kosher food. Rapidly, he built to what the Holocaust. Now, today, the
:22:38. > :22:43.freedom to practise the Christian faith in the United Kingdom is
:22:43. > :22:46.under attack. Disciplinary or dismissal actions for a British
:22:46. > :22:52.Airways worker for wearing a crucifix? A nurse for praying for a
:22:52. > :22:58.patient? A van driver of all displaying a Palm Sunday cross on
:22:58. > :23:02.his dashboard? The list goes on. There is, of course, a powerful
:23:03. > :23:09.lobby working to eliminate all aspects of Christianity from the
:23:09. > :23:14.public's crowd. This will enable -- this will inevitably lead to gross
:23:14. > :23:20.intolerance towards certain individuals and groups. This is an
:23:20. > :23:25.at a dead end. Not just a dead end but a deadly end. The only hope
:23:25. > :23:32.lies in another direction. Let Christianity play its part in our
:23:32. > :23:38.society. Let prisoners be Christmas and Christian. -- Christmas. Let
:23:38. > :23:44.the nation, with faith and meaning, continues singing with heart and
:23:44. > :23:51.voice, God Save Our Queen. Let Britain remain a Christian country,
:23:51. > :23:54.where religious freedom closures. Bidisha, does he have a point?
:23:54. > :23:58.certainly think there is a tremendous amount of anxiety around
:23:59. > :24:03.religion globally, and I would not say that started off with the
:24:03. > :24:07.examination of Christianity. I think it started after 9/11 when
:24:07. > :24:11.people started looking at the crossover between religion and
:24:11. > :24:17.society, and its fall-out. I have his say that I'm not as worried as
:24:17. > :24:21.you are, I truly am not. I think that there are up in the shades of
:24:21. > :24:25.this examination of religiosity. I do not mind anyone wearing a cross,
:24:25. > :24:30.not one little blood. I do mind someone who refuses to cancel all
:24:30. > :24:35.let into their B&B a gay couple, because that is just homophobia, it
:24:35. > :24:38.is just homophobia. But as to the signs and portents of faith, I have
:24:38. > :24:42.never mind that whatsoever. I mind someone who aggressively tries to
:24:42. > :24:47.convert the one way or the other two any viewpoint. Would you
:24:47. > :24:51.complain about it? No, I would not. I would look at the person who is
:24:51. > :24:54.talking to me and think about whether they were kind-hearted or
:24:54. > :24:58.not. If I were ill and somebody said they would pray for me, I
:24:58. > :25:03.would not be offended. If they said, I will pray for you but not operate
:25:03. > :25:07.because I have such faith in prayer, I would be slightly perturbed. If
:25:07. > :25:11.somebody said, and sorry, it is against my believes to have
:25:11. > :25:14.somebody of a certain sex, sexuality, you cannot come into my
:25:14. > :25:18.establishment, I would say no, there is something more important
:25:18. > :25:21.than faith, and that is the humanitarian principle of equality
:25:21. > :25:26.and justice and diversity, and to me that goes beyond organised
:25:26. > :25:30.religions. You would agree with that? I agree that Christians are
:25:30. > :25:32.persecuted in many parts of the world, and I have involved in
:25:32. > :25:36.campaigns to protect them in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and
:25:36. > :25:42.right now in a runway Krisztian Pars there has been sentenced to
:25:42. > :25:45.hang for his faith. -- right now in Iran where a Krisztian Pars there
:25:45. > :25:52.has been sentenced to hang for his they still have great privilege
:25:52. > :25:55.here. Bishops sit in the House of Lords as of right. No other fate
:25:56. > :26:01.group has that privileged position. The government consults Christian
:26:01. > :26:04.groups. Human rights groups do not get that privilege. I must say that
:26:04. > :26:09.I've got particularly object to people wearing a crucifix, that
:26:09. > :26:14.does not worry me. I do think that when a Christian counsellor refuses
:26:14. > :26:17.to cancel a gay couple, they are discriminating. That is an act of
:26:17. > :26:20.discrimination, and discrimination is wrong in all circumstances. I
:26:20. > :26:24.would never countenance discrimination against a Christian
:26:24. > :26:28.person, and I find offensive that they would discriminate against me
:26:28. > :26:36.because I happen to be gay. We can speak to that councillor, Gary
:26:36. > :26:40.McFarlane, who was sacked from his job at Relate for failing to
:26:40. > :26:44.Council of gay people. This is the balance, isn't it, George, between
:26:44. > :26:48.the rights of gay people to be recognised, to be counselled, to
:26:48. > :26:52.access services being offered? Absolutely. It is protecting them
:26:52. > :26:58.from discrimination. And we are against discrimination. We do not
:26:58. > :27:02.support discrimination. We do support, and the Human Rights Act
:27:02. > :27:07.supports, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience. So there are
:27:07. > :27:11.no cases that have come to court where a b&b owner has said that I
:27:11. > :27:15.am discriminating specifically against gays. They answered, we do
:27:15. > :27:19.not have unmarried couples in double bed. They did not say, you
:27:20. > :27:23.cannot stay in our B&B. But the press and other commentators
:27:23. > :27:27.twisted that to make it look like they do not take gay couples. That
:27:27. > :27:31.was acknowledged by the judge, and we have to have a society where we
:27:31. > :27:34.can say, my conscience doesn't allow me to do something like this.
:27:34. > :27:39.So if your conscience says it is right to discriminate, a Christian
:27:39. > :27:43.should be able to do that? If you are consistent and that B&B owner
:27:43. > :27:47.was very consistent, saying they would not have unmarried
:27:47. > :27:51.heterosexual has been a bed, just as they would not have two gay
:27:51. > :27:55.people in a bed. You're welcome to stay, we have twin rooms, other
:27:55. > :27:59.facilities, but we would not allow that. I think that is quite
:27:59. > :28:03.appropriate. It is discriminatory if you have one law for one section
:28:03. > :28:07.and another law for the other, but there was not in that case, and I
:28:07. > :28:10.do not know of any other case. you think Gary Macfarlane has a
:28:10. > :28:16.right to discriminate against gay couples by refusing to serve them,
:28:16. > :28:22.the job he was employed to do? will allow him to answer that.
:28:22. > :28:27.can talk to him. Gary McFarlane, what was your villages issue with
:28:27. > :28:31.what you are being asked to do at Night? -- your religious issue was
:28:31. > :28:38.the odd good morning, everyone. sex therapist, a sex addiction
:28:38. > :28:41.therapist. -- I am. Consistently through the media, there is an
:28:41. > :28:46.element of misreporting. Importantly, I have never refused
:28:46. > :28:51.to provide a relationship counselling service to same-sex
:28:51. > :28:56.couples. I counsel same-sex couples, I will always continue to council
:28:56. > :29:02.same-sex couples. That is not the issue. The issue is a discreet one,
:29:02. > :29:09.because I was training at the time as a sex therapist, and I was asked,
:29:09. > :29:12.in an element of a theoretical question, I was asked if at some
:29:12. > :29:17.point, you are required to provide sex therapy to a same-sex couple,
:29:17. > :29:22.what would be Euros bonds do that? I indicated that I had never even
:29:22. > :29:27.thought about it, but if you forced me, which I was forced,, I would
:29:28. > :29:31.say, it is going to have a conflict with my Christian faith of 30 years.
:29:31. > :29:36.Sex therapy is very different to relationship counselling, and I
:29:36. > :29:40.will go on a journey to help people to come to a better place, I will
:29:40. > :29:46.continue to council same-sex couples. When it is sex therapy, I
:29:46. > :29:56.am being asked to help improve an individual and a couple's sex
:29:56. > :29:56.
:29:56. > :29:59.How do we accommodate someone religious belief with the
:29:59. > :30:09.requirements of their job which they feel comes into conflict with
:30:09. > :30:14.that? I think there is a way to do it. I appreciate that correction. I
:30:14. > :30:19.think two things. Religion of all kinds has got to move with the
:30:19. > :30:26.Times and the tenor of the times. I think also that we are living, in
:30:26. > :30:31.many ways, in best secular society. I do not mean that in a negative
:30:31. > :30:37.sense. You need to adapt to the way people genuinely do live. Religious
:30:37. > :30:41.belief has often been used by it all religions, in all parts of the
:30:41. > :30:48.world, to defend and justified all kinds of things from colonialism
:30:48. > :30:53.and slavery, it has been used to justify the exclusion of all
:30:53. > :30:59.different kinds of people from public roles. That has to stop. The
:30:59. > :31:05.use of faith as an excuse. I think this is tricky. It will take a long
:31:05. > :31:13.time to get to the bottom off. We need to move with the times. Let's
:31:13. > :31:19.speak to a Christian minister who joins us now. You are gay. You are
:31:19. > :31:28.a Christian. That is right. How do you accommodate those things? Do
:31:28. > :31:33.you feel in any way persecuted, as George suggests? I have never felt
:31:33. > :31:39.persecuted Against because of my faith - never. I have always been
:31:39. > :31:44.very confident and comfortable with it. I have, however, felt times I
:31:44. > :31:49.was persecuted because I was gay and Christiane. That is a different
:31:49. > :31:55.matter of will stop people are on their own spiritual journey. -- a
:31:55. > :32:00.different matter. It seems Against religious beliefs. Can I just
:32:00. > :32:07.establish? You feel persecuted by who because you are a gay
:32:07. > :32:12.Christian? I sometimes cut not always, and certainly not in
:32:12. > :32:18.Brighton so match, I feel persecuted Against by other
:32:18. > :32:27.Christians. -- so much. The gay community struggles with me being
:32:27. > :32:33.gay and a Christian. They have been hurt a lot by the Church. We have
:32:33. > :32:39.heard misinformation coming. We are clear there are certain people, not
:32:39. > :32:48.necessarily in the studio, who have made it their business to try to
:32:48. > :32:53.eradicate Christianity from the public screen. She says she feels
:32:53. > :33:02.persecuted as a Christian by other Christians. And other gay people.
:33:02. > :33:10.We should stand up against persecution. Only last week,
:33:10. > :33:18.Dorking has set a petition to try to ban creationism from schools.
:33:18. > :33:28.That is a direct attack at Christian education. Why is he time
:33:28. > :33:29.
:33:29. > :33:36.-- trying to take Christianity out of the public arena? I wanted to
:33:36. > :33:42.feel free to comment. People are, broadly speaking, do persecute
:33:42. > :33:48.people. She is absolutely right and extremely frank to say, yes, of
:33:48. > :33:52.course, the gay community may think that Christianity has been about
:33:52. > :33:58.patriarchy, conservatism. What are you doing doing this and forming
:33:58. > :34:03.your own spiritual path? There are Christians who have said, what are
:34:03. > :34:09.you doing because you are gay? You cannot flinch away from the reality
:34:09. > :34:14.of homophobia. People are not aggressively homophobic. People are
:34:14. > :34:21.very uncomfortable with issues of sexuality. It takes a long time for
:34:21. > :34:26.them to confront it. Everyone is on the spiritual pass. Can I depend
:34:26. > :34:35.most Christians? Most Christians in his country's support equality and
:34:35. > :34:39.are happy to abide by the quality laws. -- this country support. It
:34:39. > :34:45.is only fundamentalists who are raising his cry of persecution.
:34:45. > :34:49.They do a disservice when they say the persecution of Christians is
:34:49. > :34:56.tantamount to the persecution of Jews under the Nazis. That is
:34:56. > :35:01.really offensive to Jewish people and others. What started three
:35:01. > :35:06.months after he became in, he did something that may have seemed
:35:06. > :35:09.innocuous. He started to ban aspects of kosher food. Nobody
:35:10. > :35:17.thought there was such evil lurking on that trajectory which would lead
:35:17. > :35:22.to millions of people being killed. I am not going to say any names.
:35:22. > :35:27.When you get comfortable with small restrictions on faith, whether it
:35:27. > :35:33.is Christian, Muslim or anybody and he justified it in law, it builds
:35:33. > :35:38.and builds. Only last week, just because by the scriptures were on
:35:38. > :35:48.the back wall of a coffee shop, police came in and accused a man of
:35:48. > :35:49.
:35:49. > :35:54.breaking the law. Do we have a rabbi with us? I wonder if that is
:35:54. > :36:04.something the Jewish community feels offended by. This is a
:36:04. > :36:10.different planet. I absolutely reject the comparison. We were
:36:10. > :36:15.banned from most professions. It does Christianity a disservice. I
:36:15. > :36:20.want to be more positive and not just say, I do not agree. In
:36:20. > :36:26.Britain mere talking about inclusion. In the studio it is an
:36:26. > :36:32.inclusive panel. Discussion has to be about the arguments with
:36:32. > :36:38.Christianity are about including people who a Christian, in the
:36:38. > :36:44.community, Jews across the board - atheists. When you compare it to
:36:44. > :36:52.the Holocaust, you are going out of the bounds of sensible discussion.
:36:53. > :36:56.It is offensive not just to Jews but to Christians. I want to talk
:36:56. > :37:05.to Andrew Marr Show. You are supportive of these cases going to
:37:05. > :37:11.Europe at the moment. Do you agree with George that There is a process
:37:11. > :37:17.of persecution going on? All human beings come up all persons, are to
:37:17. > :37:22.be treated with dignity and respect. Made in God's image and loved by
:37:22. > :37:26.him. His love is greater than any human blood. Christians should be
:37:26. > :37:31.at the forefront of treating individuals with dignity and
:37:31. > :37:39.respect. The crucial point is that does not equate to affirming every
:37:39. > :37:45.form of behaviour or activity. The integrity and passion means you
:37:45. > :37:51.speak up about when to dispute particular forms of behaviour and
:37:51. > :37:55.affirm other forms of behaviour - particularly things like sexual
:37:55. > :38:02.ethics. Christians are committed to the teaching of Jesus that marriage
:38:02. > :38:09.is God's good plan and is the play's full sexual expression. The
:38:09. > :38:12.case is, I just make the case again, in none of the instances going to
:38:12. > :38:20.the European Court was there any danger that someone would be denied
:38:20. > :38:24.a service. It could easily have been provided by the organisation.
:38:25. > :38:28.It is about imposing ideology and telling people how to think and
:38:28. > :38:37.creating a climate of fear where people feel they cannot express
:38:37. > :38:44.genuine concerns about what is in the best interests. With respect,
:38:44. > :38:51.this is about discrimination. A civil registrar was employed and
:38:51. > :38:57.she refused to apply civil partnership to same-sex couples.
:38:57. > :39:03.She is entitled to her point of view. I defend her right for that.
:39:03. > :39:08.If she is employed to do a job, she should do it. If we allow her to be
:39:08. > :39:13.exempt from the law, lots of other people will be exempt. Jewish
:39:13. > :39:17.supermarket workers might refuse to handle alcohol in the supermarket.
:39:17. > :39:24.Solicitors may refuse to deal with women who are having sexual
:39:24. > :39:30.relationships outside of a marriage. A final point. The monarch has to
:39:30. > :39:34.be Christian. Christianity dominates public life. A third of
:39:34. > :39:42.school children are educated in Christian schools. Is that evidence
:39:43. > :39:48.of persecution? In 1930, before the gas chambers, this is what I was
:39:48. > :39:54.saying. I am not saying we're in gas chamber territory. There were
:39:54. > :40:02.jobs that Jews could not do. We had these Sir John's case where they
:40:02. > :40:09.could not be foster carers because of their religion. If we allow that
:40:09. > :40:13.to start, we saw where it ended in Germany. It starts with these
:40:13. > :40:20.restrictions. It starts where people cannot do a job of work
:40:20. > :40:27.because of their faith. We are very out of time. I am terribly sorry. I
:40:27. > :40:34.have been told off for intervening. Coming up: We are said to be a
:40:34. > :40:44.nation of animal lovers. Colours claim it stops animals starving to
:40:44. > :40:44.
:40:44. > :40:54.death if they ran out of food. -- cullers. Get in touch by e-mail or
:40:54. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :41:04.online. Do the rich have a moral You hub around five minutes before
:41:04. > :41:10.the poll closes. -- you have around. Time to chew over some of the keep
:41:10. > :41:17.morale moments of the week. Peter, the killing of the Al-Qaeda leader,
:41:17. > :41:27.Anwar al-Awlaki, Cort shot I. Why? I have been campaigning against all
:41:27. > :41:29.
:41:29. > :41:34.kinds of fundamentalism for years. -- caught your eye. His killing was
:41:34. > :41:40.extra-judicial murder. He was assassinated without being brought
:41:40. > :41:46.before a trial, his evidence considered and duly punished. That
:41:46. > :41:51.is how we do things in democracies. We do not go out and shoot and kill
:41:51. > :41:55.people. I have looked at the evidence. He has said he is linked
:41:56. > :42:01.to and has connection to various terrorist attacks. I have never
:42:01. > :42:07.seen any evidence. It is also position. He should have been
:42:07. > :42:11.arrested and put on trial. A report this week says the number of babies
:42:11. > :42:17.and children being adopted has fallen, apparently. How did this
:42:17. > :42:23.concern you? I am pro adoption. I'm not saying the process should be
:42:23. > :42:28.made easier. The report is fascinating. It is quite critical
:42:28. > :42:32.towards existing care and adoption processes. They are pointing out
:42:32. > :42:39.that fewer numbers of babies are being adopted but few in numbers of
:42:39. > :42:46.older children are also been adopted. -- fewer numbers. They are
:42:46. > :42:51.talking about the care system, but Foster system and vetting potential
:42:51. > :42:55.parents being rejected. -- the fostering system. They need more
:42:55. > :42:59.compassion. As someone who is getting bolder, you can live the
:42:59. > :43:09.Cinderella fantasy board do it is used for and provide a loving home
:43:09. > :43:10.
:43:10. > :43:15.for children. You are vetted very carefully. The process takes around
:43:15. > :43:20.two to three years. There is tremendous worry about the children.
:43:20. > :43:27.There are children in care right now. You are considering adopting a
:43:27. > :43:33.child, are you? At some point in the future. I come from an
:43:33. > :43:37.extremely, happy, stable home. I always promised myself if I could
:43:37. > :43:43.bring up a child, I would want to give them the privilege and love
:43:43. > :43:46.that I enjoyed and I look at those children who already exist. If you
:43:46. > :43:53.are not loved and stayed there be cared for and securing you are
:43:53. > :43:58.growing up, it has effects all the way through your life. It affects
:43:58. > :44:04.your education, relationships, if you are addictive/compulsive,
:44:04. > :44:14.whatever. There is a fundamental walk if you are - is that the
:44:14. > :44:14.
:44:14. > :44:18.warmth if you are from a loving home. -- There is a fundamental
:44:18. > :44:25.warmth. Children should be given some of the support I enjoyed and
:44:25. > :44:33.have taken for granted all my life. A local farmer to here was not
:44:33. > :44:43.pleased with the display by Rihanna in his field. He told her to cover
:44:43. > :44:45.
:44:45. > :44:50.up. He is not the only person Saine, cover up. -- saying. Ofcom has said,
:44:50. > :44:57.this kind of scantily dressed pop videos Stubbs should now be beyond
:44:57. > :45:02.the 9 o'clock watershed. -- video staff. This farmer is in the flow
:45:02. > :45:10.of the public mood. Children look at the pop stars. They ate what
:45:10. > :45:17.they do. They get sexual lives at such a young age. They look at
:45:17. > :45:23.these images. I would say well done to him. He has public support and
:45:23. > :45:33.support from Ofcom. I was impressed that Rihanna did not protest.
:45:33. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:40.she cover up? I do not know. It is an important message. We have NTV,
:45:40. > :45:50.24 hour videos and Stubbs. These videos are damaging to women. --
:45:50. > :45:53.
:45:53. > :46:00.Do the rich have a moral duty to pay more tax? The poll is close now.
:46:00. > :46:04.We will bring you the result at the end of the programme.
:46:04. > :46:08.Imagine seeing a wild stag at dawn or a badger in your own backyard,
:46:08. > :46:11.for most of us an unexpected encounter with a wild animal is a
:46:11. > :46:21.magical moment, but this year the government plans to slaughter them
:46:21. > :46:21.
:46:21. > :46:26.in record numbers. Are those plans for a big car a bad call?
:46:26. > :46:29.The government could be about to allow the killing of 30,000 badgers
:46:29. > :46:31.a year, blaming them for tuberculosis in cattle. There may
:46:31. > :46:37.be a protest at today's Conservative conference.
:46:37. > :46:41.Campaigners say that culling is unnecessary and cruel and we should
:46:41. > :46:45.vaccinate badgers instead. But farmers say tuberculosis is
:46:45. > :46:48.destroying their livestock and costing them money. Is it
:46:48. > :46:54.hypocritical to protest about culling wild animals when we
:46:54. > :46:58.slaughter billions of domestic ones for food every year it? Culling can
:46:58. > :47:04.also be seen as humane. We regularly cull dear to stop them
:47:04. > :47:08.running out of food and starving to death. We also car to protect other
:47:08. > :47:12.species. Parakeets are kept under control to stop them damaging crops
:47:12. > :47:15.and native birds. But if we're going to kill to protect the
:47:15. > :47:20.species, what about domestic cats, which caused huge damage to our
:47:20. > :47:24.wild birds? In other countries, there is an argument for killing
:47:24. > :47:28.animals if they physically threaten human beings. Elephants and tigers
:47:28. > :47:34.are often killed because they endanger villages which encroach on
:47:34. > :47:38.their habitat. But in the end, say the protesters, the animal which
:47:38. > :47:48.threatened species and habitats the most IS man, and we need to find
:47:48. > :47:49.
:47:49. > :47:54.better ways of sharing our planet. You can make your point by phone,
:47:54. > :47:59.by text or online. John Palmer he is the founder of animal-rights
:47:59. > :48:03.Action Network. Thank you for having me on. Culling, if it is
:48:03. > :48:07.something that is necessary to prevent suffering to farm animals
:48:07. > :48:12.for suffering to the animals being hold, isn't it a humane thing to
:48:13. > :48:16.do? It is not humane, and the word cull is a very nice word to
:48:16. > :48:21.describe what is a glorified slaughter. In this particular
:48:21. > :48:24.situation with regards to the culling of badgers in the UK, it is
:48:24. > :48:29.a very important thing to remember that we have been doing this, as
:48:29. > :48:34.far as I can go back, to the 1970s, when we slotted literally hundreds
:48:34. > :48:38.of thousands of badgers. Here we are in 2011, and we are putting our
:48:38. > :48:42.hands back up again and saying, right, the tuberculosis is still
:48:42. > :48:47.here, the finger is pointed at the Badger, we need to get them again.
:48:47. > :48:50.Surely enough, somebody should be tapping the shoulders at the NFU
:48:50. > :48:55.and farmers across the UK and saying, hey, I don't think this is
:48:55. > :49:00.working. Before we speak to a farmer, I want to get your views,
:49:00. > :49:04.Bidisha. You eat meat? I do, and I'm very cautious about these
:49:04. > :49:07.debates, because the moment you say that, it looks as though you are
:49:07. > :49:12.advocating the serial killing of animals just for fun. But I do
:49:12. > :49:17.believe that farmers in particular have a very, very tricky job. They
:49:17. > :49:19.work with the land, they have got to balance the so called wild
:49:19. > :49:25.animal world with what they have organised for their business. And I
:49:25. > :49:27.do not think that what is happening here is the random persecution of
:49:28. > :49:34.the badger species, but I would like to know more about it, because
:49:34. > :49:36.actually I am not an animal rights activist at all, and I'm very
:49:36. > :49:41.against the said medicalisation that happens when we talk about
:49:41. > :49:44.animals. If it supports farming, you would be in favour?
:49:44. > :49:48.certainly willing to listen to farmers to justify what they are
:49:48. > :49:53.doing, because it is not done out of a sense of exultation of killing
:49:53. > :49:58.animals. It is called slaughter, I do not mind that. Peter Tatchell.
:49:58. > :50:03.Humans are one of millions of species on this planet. We do not
:50:03. > :50:06.own his planet. We did not created, we did not produce it. We are a
:50:06. > :50:12.special, exceptional species in that we have great intelligence and
:50:12. > :50:17.a capacity for ethical, moral decisions. Therefore, that gives us
:50:17. > :50:20.a responsibility to look very carefully at our role and
:50:20. > :50:25.interaction with other species, and I do not think that culling and
:50:25. > :50:29.animal species is morally justified, because they are living, sentient
:50:30. > :50:35.creatures. They feel pain, they have got emotions, they interact in
:50:35. > :50:39.social groups, they feel very much just like we do. Not on the same
:50:39. > :50:43.level, but they have the same range of basic emotions and a capacity
:50:43. > :50:49.for pain, so we have a moral duty to spare them that. You feel the
:50:49. > :50:53.same way about farm animals? I do not eat meat. Let's speak to a
:50:53. > :50:58.farmer. Jan Rowe is a palm of. York house have suffered from
:50:58. > :51:05.tuberculosis. We are talking about culling badgers in order to stop
:51:05. > :51:09.that happening. Will it work? I think a highly organised and well
:51:09. > :51:12.prepared and well-executed cull in those areas where we know we have
:51:12. > :51:16.badger populations that are infected with tuberculosis and are
:51:16. > :51:19.close to cattle will definitely work and is very necessary. We are
:51:19. > :51:26.not talking about a widespread Qom of badgers randomly across the
:51:26. > :51:29.country. It will be highly targeted and organised. Unfortunately, we do
:51:29. > :51:34.not have any other mechanism that will effectively reduce the
:51:34. > :51:39.tuberculosis load that is filling back into cattle. What has been the
:51:39. > :51:44.effect on your staff? Well, we have been suffering from tuberculosis in
:51:44. > :51:50.our cattle for nearly 25 years now. We have lost probably 170 cattle,
:51:50. > :51:54.and it has cost us nearly �500,000. We have experienced cars of badgers
:51:54. > :52:00.in the past, but they were temporary, and they did not make a
:52:00. > :52:05.significant difference. -- culls. We need a more organised and
:52:05. > :52:10.thorough cull until such time as we have an effective vaccine. Can I
:52:10. > :52:14.get in here? I was reading some statistics this morning, and it was
:52:14. > :52:20.delighted to hear that in Northern Ireland we have the highest cases
:52:20. > :52:25.of tuberculosis in cows in Europe, but you did not proceed for many
:52:25. > :52:28.years with culls, and yet the problem is now under control
:52:28. > :52:32.because there are fire hazard restrictions in place and certain
:52:32. > :52:42.conditions on the farmer as well. It is a known fact, with regards to
:52:42. > :52:48.the culling of badgers, that 7-8 of the animals are shot dead two not
:52:48. > :52:51.have tuberculosis. Are there more humane ways of doing this? I wish
:52:51. > :52:54.there were, Susanna. Unfortunately, we have tried pretty well
:52:54. > :53:00.everything, and I think in the long run vaccination will probably be
:53:00. > :53:04.the answer, but it is not ready to use at the moment. Certainly in
:53:04. > :53:09.England, the experience, in the south and west of the country, is
:53:09. > :53:13.that we are testing cattle ad nauseam. The disease is still
:53:13. > :53:18.increasing, it is spreading into other animals, it is spreading into
:53:18. > :53:23.deer, alpaca, family pets, pigs, sheep. We just have to reduce the
:53:23. > :53:27.tuberculosis load. We can talk to the RSPCA, because they have a
:53:27. > :53:31.different view. Dr Andrew Kelly joins us. You are generally against
:53:31. > :53:35.culling but there are circumstances in which it is a humane thing to do,
:53:35. > :53:38.is that right? Let me save from the start that we are opposed in
:53:38. > :53:43.principle to be taking or killing of any wild animal or the
:53:43. > :53:45.infliction of any suffering upon them. In any case, what we would
:53:45. > :53:48.try to do is challenge the justification and the
:53:48. > :53:55.proportionality of killing animals for any given reason. There may
:53:55. > :54:00.well be some very rare occasions where not to cull may increase
:54:00. > :54:05.individual suffering, for example the case of the ewe they may starve
:54:05. > :54:09.to death. We may consider that to be an option under those
:54:09. > :54:13.circumstances, but in terms of controlling badgers to reduce
:54:13. > :54:18.tuberculosis, for example, we are opposed to that primarily because
:54:18. > :54:22.the scientific experts have said it is not going to work. On that point,
:54:22. > :54:27.the fact that in some cases it would be cruel or not to, in some
:54:27. > :54:32.circumstances. It is ridiculous. You know, there is an undeclared
:54:32. > :54:36.war on animals. We continue to shoot them, skin them, experiment
:54:36. > :54:41.on them, and yet it is always seen as being the easy way out. Time and
:54:41. > :54:46.again it is the lazy option, specifically regards to the Banja
:54:46. > :54:51.culling, there is an easy, humane alternative which is vaccinating
:54:51. > :54:55.the animals. -- Banja Colin macro. The lazy way out for the farmers,
:54:55. > :54:59.and they have been doing it since the 1970s, is to simply shoot the
:54:59. > :55:04.animals. On that point, with regards to the culling of these
:55:04. > :55:08.animals, it will have to be done at night. They are not guaranteed an
:55:09. > :55:13.instant death. A lot of these animals will be maimed, they will
:55:13. > :55:18.be hurt. A lot of these animals will not die instantaneously. There
:55:18. > :55:21.will be a lot of suffering. Bidisha, in the natural order of things,
:55:21. > :55:25.aren't we simply the top of the food chain and the predators?
:55:25. > :55:35.think the crux of the argument is RTZ in the wonderful video at the
:55:35. > :55:35.
:55:35. > :55:38.beginning, what of -- what he said in the wonderful video at the
:55:38. > :55:43.beginning, which is this is about global capitalisation, and what we
:55:43. > :55:48.do as humans, which is to exploit, two over farm animals, to Roman
:55:48. > :55:52.breed animals. If we were not part of the equation, the ecosystem
:55:52. > :55:56.would do perfectly well. There would be no excess on either side.
:55:56. > :56:01.David Taylor is from the Countryside Alliance. David, have
:56:01. > :56:05.we brought this upon ourselves? and no. We have brought it and
:56:05. > :56:09.ourselves in the fact that we have managed our environment to be the
:56:09. > :56:13.way that it is, so that we can feed ourselves, so we can stay alive,
:56:13. > :56:17.but we have managed the environment and as a result the countryside is
:56:17. > :56:22.managed and we have to take care of it. As a result of that, we have to
:56:22. > :56:26.take some harsh decisions. The deer that we have have no natural
:56:26. > :56:30.predators, therefore we have to take care of their numbers, because
:56:30. > :56:34.we have a duty of care, and they would starve to death, get diseases,
:56:34. > :56:38.and ultimately they will end of squashed on the road because the
:56:38. > :56:42.only thing to control them with the disease and the roads. We do not
:56:42. > :56:45.actually manage them, then they will be the ones is at a. We have
:56:45. > :56:50.heard these hideous statements from the Countryside Alliance for years.
:56:50. > :56:55.There was a similar situation a couple of years ago in the Irish
:56:56. > :56:59.Republic where there was a cull of the unplanned. We intervened and
:56:59. > :57:02.lobbied and provided humane alternatives, the neutering of the
:57:02. > :57:09.animals and proper fencing along the sides of a particular part in
:57:09. > :57:12.Dublin. So you are saying... When it nearly went ahead, we had Proops
:57:12. > :57:17.from right across the country putting their hands up and saying,
:57:17. > :57:23.I want to get involved, I want to try. I am terribly sorry. People
:57:23. > :57:26.can learn more by going to the website. I am terribly sorry, we
:57:26. > :57:30.have to ended there. We are completely out of time, because I
:57:30. > :57:35.have to let you know what the result of the text poll is. We
:57:35. > :57:43.asked you, do the rich have a moral duty to pay more tax? This is what
:57:43. > :57:48.you told us, 84% of you who texted in said yes, they do. 16% said no.
:57:48. > :57:53.Peter Tatchell, 84%. It is quite clear what the public view is, and
:57:53. > :57:57.we have to find ways to halt the current tax avoidance, in
:57:57. > :58:01.particular companies like Vodafone, who are accused of underpaying tax
:58:01. > :58:06.by �6 billion, they need to cough up. We need to say that the people
:58:06. > :58:10.who have got not millions, but even billions, they can afford to pay
:58:10. > :58:15.much, much more, and it is their responsibility, their moral
:58:15. > :58:19.responsibility to help those who are less fortunate. If you agree or
:58:19. > :58:22.disagree, you can of course take out the issue on our website. As
:58:22. > :58:29.you can at any of the debates that we have heard this morning. I would