:00:08. > :00:12.Politicians and campaigners say that Britain is full up. We've got
:00:12. > :00:22.no room for any more immigrants. Thought-provoking or just
:00:22. > :00:35.
:00:35. > :00:40.Good morning, welcome to Sunday Morning Live. The world's
:00:40. > :00:45.population has just tipped the 7 billion mark. And under 20 years,
:00:45. > :00:52.70 million could be living in the UK. Most of that rise would come
:00:52. > :00:54.from immigrants and their children. A happy prospect? Kiran Bali, a
:00:54. > :00:58.magistrate and daughter are all immigrants herself, isn't so sure.
:00:58. > :01:03.I believe this country is fast filling up and the rate of
:01:03. > :01:07.emigration is simply unsustainable. The Church of England has been
:01:07. > :01:11.accused of being the Apostle of Dithering over its handling of the
:01:11. > :01:15.St Paul's protesters. Backing them, wanting them off the premises and
:01:15. > :01:22.then backing them once again. But can a church with billions in
:01:22. > :01:29.assets ever really be a champion of the poor? Islamic extremists
:01:29. > :01:33.planned to disrupt Armistice Day services. Is it a Mark or failure
:01:33. > :01:38.of a civilised society to let them? My guests this week are more used
:01:38. > :01:42.to exchanging strong views than changing their own. On telly, Nina
:01:42. > :01:46.Myskow was on New Faces before becoming a Grumpy Old Woman. His
:01:46. > :01:49.surname tells you that her father was a Polish immigrant who came to
:01:49. > :01:52.fight for Britain in the Second World War. Jonathan Bartley has
:01:52. > :01:56.been making the news all week for putting the boot into the Church of
:01:56. > :02:00.England. His other side reveals that his campaign and a drummer in
:02:00. > :02:05.a blues band. And Kiran Bali is one of Britain's youngest magistrate
:02:05. > :02:15.and a Hindu community leader. She has campaigned for peace, but also
:02:15. > :02:31.
:02:31. > :02:35.holds a black belt in karate. Call 1000 people a day are signing a new
:02:35. > :02:38.E petition telling the Government that Britain is foal and should
:02:38. > :02:43.stop letting in so many immigrants. But businesses say that they need
:02:43. > :02:49.more immigrants to help Hall was out of recession. That is an
:02:49. > :02:53.argument that Kiran Bali doesn't bite. -- bite.
:02:53. > :03:00.I believe this country is fast filling up. The rate of emigration
:03:00. > :03:04.is simply unsustainable. If immigration was to continue at its
:03:04. > :03:11.current level, around 200 homes would need to be built every day
:03:11. > :03:15.for the next 23 years to howlers just those coming into the country.
:03:15. > :03:20.-- house. When I recently went through my pregnancy, I experienced
:03:20. > :03:26.first hand the strain that this level of immigration places on our
:03:26. > :03:30.maternity services. Like so many others, I have paid my taxes. So
:03:30. > :03:37.why should some of those who have not contributed to affect the level
:03:37. > :03:42.of service I receive? Many immigrants came here for the jobs
:03:42. > :03:46.that we often wouldn't do. Some English firms are partly to blame.
:03:46. > :03:53.They have not invested in local people and they have imported
:03:53. > :03:56.foreign labour. Suggesting tighter controls is not racists. It is
:03:56. > :04:02.about highlighting the limited resources and constraints that we
:04:02. > :04:07.have. So, Jonathan, is Britain foal?
:04:07. > :04:11.It is the argument that the Daily Mail used in the 30s to keep German
:04:11. > :04:14.Jews out of the country. It is not that we are full, it is the
:04:14. > :04:20.relationship between people. We have enough money to go round, the
:04:20. > :04:30.rich have most of it and the poor people don't get it will stop that
:04:30. > :04:36.
:04:36. > :04:41.We will show you how you voted at the end of the programme. Kiran,
:04:42. > :04:46.you made that film. People might be surprised that this view comes from
:04:46. > :04:50.someone like yourself, the daughter of immigrants? I don't know why.
:04:50. > :04:53.Just because I am the daughter of an immigrant it doesn't mean that
:04:53. > :05:00.we should have no control on immigration. Statistics prove that
:05:00. > :05:06.England is the most Test -- densely-populated nation in Europe.
:05:06. > :05:09.Next year, we will have more per square mile than the densely
:05:09. > :05:12.populated areas of the Netherlands and Luxembourg. We have to look
:05:12. > :05:16.forward. We can't keep looking backwards and say that all of these
:05:16. > :05:21.immigrants came in the 1960s when conditions were different, it is
:05:21. > :05:24.unrealistic to try to adopt a similar approach now, when we have
:05:24. > :05:29.alarming numbers of people coming in. 570,000 people came into the
:05:29. > :05:33.country last year. Two-thirds of the UK is farming land. We would
:05:33. > :05:37.have to increase our population by 50%, up to 90 million, to come
:05:37. > :05:40.close to the density of the Netherlands. We've got lots of
:05:40. > :05:48.space and resources. What we do have is a problem with second homes.
:05:48. > :05:51.There are 500.002nd homes in the UK. There are 250,000 homes that are
:05:51. > :05:55.empty. The problem is not that we haven't got enough resources.
:05:55. > :06:00.Immigrants are also funding doctors and nurses, as well as being
:06:00. > :06:05.doctors and nurses. We don't have the money to keep building houses.
:06:05. > :06:08.The ageing population, we are living longer and we have to have a
:06:08. > :06:13.bigger working population to support it. If you're happy to have
:06:13. > :06:17.students coming out of a university paying �50,000 in debts, if you are
:06:17. > :06:23.happy for an NHS that isn't funded properly, then batten down the
:06:23. > :06:29.hatches. Nina, you have been quite so far. You have an interesting
:06:29. > :06:33.experience. Your father fought... He came with the Polish forces five
:06:33. > :06:37.days after Dunkirk, he settled in this country until the end of the
:06:37. > :06:41.war and then emigrated to South Africa. That was when I was 18
:06:41. > :06:46.months old. When he died, when I was 12, my mother brought me back
:06:46. > :06:51.to Britain. Although I am British, because I was born here, I was, in
:06:51. > :06:56.effect, an immigrant at the age of 15. I have experience of being an
:06:56. > :07:00.outsider. I have always felt that Britain is the home of democracy.
:07:00. > :07:08.We should keep our doors open. We are a refuge for anybody that needs
:07:08. > :07:11.help. I will defend that, utterly. But I live in London and I love the
:07:11. > :07:16.ethnic mix. I love the fact that you can walk down the street and
:07:16. > :07:22.yet 20 different languages. That is why I live in London. I couldn't
:07:22. > :07:25.live anywhere else in this country. But we are getting really crowded
:07:25. > :07:30.and resources are getting strained. I know what Jonathan says, but
:07:30. > :07:35.there isn't the money to go around. there isn't the money to go around.
:07:35. > :07:38.For instance, I don't think that the Government realise that, when
:07:38. > :07:46.we opened our borders to the EU, how many Eastern Europeans would
:07:46. > :07:50.come. I thought, fantastic. More Polish people, fabulous. But that
:07:50. > :07:57.caused a huge strain. Many of them are Catholic countries and they are
:07:57. > :08:01.going to have more babies. The thing is, we are restrained in this
:08:01. > :08:06.country in terms of resources and benefits. I don't understand how we
:08:06. > :08:10.are going to pay for it all. If but who we is paying for it is the
:08:10. > :08:15.migrants. It is the tax revenues, the new businesses they are
:08:15. > :08:21.starting. In London, Kensington & Chelsea, that is the one that is
:08:21. > :08:24.most sensible placated. -- densely populated. And it's doing really
:08:24. > :08:34.well. It's not population density, is that the money is in the wrong
:08:34. > :08:39.places. We are joined by a novelist and journalist. We hear this a lot,
:08:39. > :08:48.that there is a strain on resources, that the country cannot afford to
:08:48. > :08:51.pay for more people. Therefore, focus is put on two immigrants. Are
:08:51. > :08:56.their factual reasons, do you think, that people should worry about
:08:56. > :09:01.immigration? Or is there something else going on? No, I think there
:09:01. > :09:05.are no factual reasons whatsoever. I'm amused by the range of racial
:09:05. > :09:09.paranoia I have heard. Look at what migrants do. We come over and work.
:09:09. > :09:14.I am the daughter of a migrant, my mother is an academic and a role
:09:14. > :09:18.model for any one of any race that lives in England right now. We work,
:09:18. > :09:23.we know multiple languages, we have seen some of the world. We are not
:09:23. > :09:28.coming over, as the stereotype has always been, to have lots of babies,
:09:28. > :09:33.to take the resources of the NHS. Has anyone used the NHS risen to?
:09:33. > :09:36.It is not nice enough for anyone to desire to come and use up its
:09:36. > :09:41.resources. The houses being built, the new-build houses, they are not
:09:41. > :09:45.at nights. We don't want to come over just to get some free housing.
:09:45. > :09:49.-- they are not that nice. Major cities are crowded, that is the
:09:49. > :09:53.fault of town planners. That is the fault of the system we have,
:09:53. > :09:57.whereby people working very hard cannot afford housing. These are
:09:57. > :10:03.problems for everyone. But you must look at what migrants do. We work,
:10:03. > :10:09.we learn, we study. Not only that, our children go to university. They
:10:09. > :10:13.are part of something which is what makes Britain great. Diversity and
:10:13. > :10:17.tolerance. It's something which is very interesting, every so often
:10:17. > :10:22.this kind of tremendous hysteria and paranoia, which is really quite
:10:22. > :10:29.racist, some leak bubbles up when people are anxious about the
:10:29. > :10:34.economy. We do celebrate the diversity created by migrants. This
:10:34. > :10:37.is now about numbers. It is about quality, not quantity. We have gone
:10:37. > :10:42.through this, unlimited immigration, tighter controls. How will tighter
:10:42. > :10:46.controls affect people coming over, apart from bringing out the best?
:10:46. > :10:50.Those that are going to come up are going to contribute positively.
:10:50. > :10:55.Immigration controls are already really quite tight. It is not about
:10:55. > :10:59.the numbers. As Jonathan quite rightly says, I am so grateful to
:10:59. > :11:06.you for saying that Britain is not fall. I liked the idea that Britain
:11:06. > :11:10.is a Tupperware container, somehow spilling over. Take the train out
:11:11. > :11:16.of London, it is remarkably empty. We are joined by a spokesman from
:11:16. > :11:21.Migration Watch. Back in the 60s, we were warned by the year 2000 our
:11:21. > :11:27.population could be as much as 75 million. Now we are being warned
:11:27. > :11:36.that it is going to be less than that in 20 or 30 years' time. Isn't
:11:36. > :11:41.this scaremongering? These are not predictions. These are projections.
:11:41. > :11:46.The ONS figures say that we are going to reach 70 million within 16
:11:46. > :11:50.years. Two-thirds of the added population, additional numbers, are
:11:50. > :11:56.going to be as the result of immigration. That is going to
:11:56. > :12:00.happen. It is a fact. This is not something like looking into a
:12:00. > :12:08.crystal ball and guessing. People are concerned about it. That is why
:12:08. > :12:13.they are rushing to sign up to our petition, 90,000 already this week.
:12:13. > :12:20.But you have just said that it is a fact. But it is also based on
:12:20. > :12:27.trends. So this isn't... Presumably it is guesswork to a certain
:12:27. > :12:31.extent? I mean, anything could happen. There are 240,000 net
:12:31. > :12:37.immigrants into this country. That is what happened last year. The ONS
:12:38. > :12:43.is allowing for 200,000 net. That being the case, we are going to
:12:43. > :12:49.have an additional 5 million immigrants and their families over
:12:49. > :12:56.the next 16 years. That is unless we suddenly stop and say, no, no
:12:56. > :13:01.more immigrants. That is just not true. There are things that could
:13:01. > :13:04.change that, government policy, changing birthrate, changes in the
:13:04. > :13:08.ageing population. The statistics themselves make it clear this is
:13:08. > :13:15.not the case. We have got to prepare for the housing. We need
:13:15. > :13:20.200 houses a week being dealt, just to accommodate... If we built a 3
:13:20. > :13:25.million more houses, it would be 0.3% of the land mass of the UK.
:13:25. > :13:29.That is if we don't build on brownfield sites. 3 million houses?
:13:29. > :13:35.That is a ridiculous... You are saying that my Brits would pay for
:13:35. > :13:39.them? That is an assumption. -- migrants would not pay for them?
:13:39. > :13:49.There is the environmental impact of this stop back up let's not all
:13:49. > :13:50.
:13:51. > :13:54.This business of immigrants coming here, I think that in itself is
:13:54. > :14:00.slightly racist, that immigrants should come to sustain the rest of
:14:00. > :14:06.us and pay for our old age. Migrants grow old. They don't live
:14:06. > :14:10.in tents. They need houses. It is no answer to simply say that
:14:10. > :14:15.emigrants can come here simply because our population will not
:14:15. > :14:21.grow otherwise. With regards to the figures, the Office of National
:14:21. > :14:24.Statistics has been quite accurate, within plus or minus 2.5%. That is
:14:24. > :14:28.for short-term protections -- projections over 20 years.
:14:28. > :14:32.assumption behind a lot of this is that migrants are going to cost us
:14:32. > :14:36.money. This is frankly wrong. When you are talking about 3 million
:14:36. > :14:42.more houses being built, who it will buy them? It will be the
:14:42. > :14:52.migrants. They will create the businesses and the wealth. Nobody
:14:52. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:59.Our emigrants not an easy target? The government building that the
:14:59. > :15:06.bankers and spending so much on propping up the IMF, they can
:15:06. > :15:13.support Europe, or going to war, you could put the focus on spending
:15:13. > :15:16.money on other things? Off-course. But in pragmatic terms, we cannot
:15:16. > :15:24.stop the Government from spending money on a war we did not want to
:15:24. > :15:30.go into. He cannot stop the Government bailing out the Euro.
:15:30. > :15:35.They are going to do that anyway. What is left has to be divided up
:15:35. > :15:41.and used in a pragmatic and practical way and I almost feel
:15:41. > :15:46.guilty thinking that we should have some kind of points system like in
:15:46. > :15:50.Australia for people coming in. Refugees are in danger of their own
:15:50. > :15:57.lives in their own countries, of course we should help feed and
:15:57. > :16:04.clothe them. That will always be a British thing. But we have to see
:16:04. > :16:08.that in practical terms, we need to look carefully and without any
:16:08. > :16:16.emotive thing or any racist attitude as to how we deal with
:16:16. > :16:19.this. We are on the brink of financial meltdown in this country.
:16:19. > :16:24.Immigrants are twice as likely to start businesses. The banks will
:16:24. > :16:31.not give them money. You talk about business as if this will happen. It
:16:31. > :16:37.isn't happening. There are businesses starting up. Who is
:16:37. > :16:46.going to provide that private sector creativity? We already have
:16:46. > :16:54.a waiting list of 1.7 million people... Social housing? Listen to
:16:54. > :16:58.Patrick from Skype. Good morning. As you listen to this debate, and
:16:58. > :17:04.whether we can limit immigration and that might be some solution to
:17:04. > :17:09.the financial problems, what strikes you? I think that emigrants
:17:09. > :17:15.are being scapegoats. Most immigrants who make the journey to
:17:15. > :17:19.Britain wants to work, they tend to be young, fit and ambitious and why
:17:19. > :17:27.else would they travel to this strange land? They are often very
:17:27. > :17:30.creative people. I say to this person on the left, when you hear
:17:31. > :17:36.about the arguments of the growth of the welfare state and they are a
:17:36. > :17:42.burden on the welfare state, it is true that only 7% of landed Britain
:17:42. > :17:49.is settled with houses, but I think the problem is the growth of the
:17:49. > :17:52.welfare state, it reaches into every part of their lives.
:17:52. > :17:59.Individuals who need constant monetary assistance, and the real
:17:59. > :18:05.problem isn't immigrants, but the welfare state training the working
:18:05. > :18:13.class by constantly patronising them. It is the nanny state that is
:18:13. > :18:17.draining us. Kieran, he mentioned here experience when you're
:18:17. > :18:24.pregnant, and that was something that had influence in the way you
:18:25. > :18:32.think about that. Services are deteriorating three health and
:18:32. > :18:37.welfare. I received a service which was not up to the right standards.
:18:37. > :18:40.It was overworked with the baby boom, one and four babies are born
:18:40. > :18:45.to immigrants. You're looking for a service that you need when you have
:18:45. > :18:49.problems. When you are told that the body can see you, it isn't
:18:49. > :18:55.always the way forward. Why make the connection between the service
:18:55. > :19:00.that you think you received, which was not as you would have liked,
:19:00. > :19:08.and immigrants having children? are having more immigrants coming
:19:08. > :19:12.in, more of a strain on resources. Recently, the Royal College of
:19:12. > :19:17.midwives has spoken about this and says that it rejects the assertion
:19:17. > :19:23.that emigration is a problem, and a great many midwives were born
:19:23. > :19:29.outside the UK and without them, NHS maternity care would generally
:19:29. > :19:34.be on its knees. We're not stopping people from coming into the country
:19:34. > :19:41.with those skills. It is about the end users. How can we provide that
:19:41. > :19:46.quality of service? How do you stop people, restrict emigration and not
:19:46. > :19:50.affect the people who provide the care? We want the quality people,
:19:50. > :19:54.people with skills to reinforce what we do not have and we have to
:19:54. > :20:03.look at the British people are relying on benefits, not working,
:20:03. > :20:08.and get them into low-skill jobs so we do not rely on immigration.
:20:08. > :20:11.we would be poorer without migrants in the health care system. But we
:20:11. > :20:15.occupy an incredibly wealthy system in the world with access to
:20:15. > :20:19.resources that the majority of the world does not. It is easier for us
:20:20. > :20:25.to go to a vending machine and pull-out a coma and it is for
:20:25. > :20:33.begins to get any clean water. What moral right to we have to exclude
:20:33. > :20:41.people when it is a matter of life and death? Is Britain for up?
:20:41. > :20:51.Please text the word vote followed by yes. Texts will be charged at
:20:51. > :20:52.
:20:52. > :20:55.your standard message right. Over the last week, Church of England
:20:55. > :21:01.leaders have gone from trying to evict protesters to backing their
:21:01. > :21:04.cost. What does it say? That the Church of England could not see the
:21:04. > :21:08.size of the problem on its doorstep? It has been too hard or
:21:08. > :21:17.soft with protesters? Orders money still matter more than Christian
:21:17. > :21:23.values? What do you think? The Church Feely admits it got this one
:21:23. > :21:27.wrong. First to try to evict the protesters, then, after a cup of
:21:27. > :21:32.resignations, it allowed them to stay. But Christianity is supposed
:21:32. > :21:36.to be about helping the poor and oppressed, so should the Church of
:21:36. > :21:41.England beating the protesters, not trying to get rid of them? Some of
:21:41. > :21:45.those have accused the Church of not being radical enough. They
:21:45. > :21:49.argue that Jesus was a direct action campaigner, challenging the
:21:49. > :21:52.authority. But the established Church of England is part of the
:21:52. > :21:57.system of government. Does that make it harder for it to fight for
:21:57. > :22:04.the poor? Or does it very power and influence mean that when it picks
:22:05. > :22:09.up, even if late, politicians to listen? The Church has assets worth
:22:09. > :22:12.more than �5 billion, including shares in many big banks. Some have
:22:12. > :22:17.accused it of being too slow to criticise the City because of this
:22:17. > :22:22.financial interests. But the Church says its investments fund
:22:22. > :22:28.charitable work and it has been campaigning for social justice long
:22:28. > :22:32.before these current protests started. Did the Church hold back
:22:32. > :22:36.because it is too close to power or too concerned about its own
:22:36. > :22:43.financial interests? Or are they simply a venerable institution
:22:43. > :22:48.caught on the hop by direct action protests and 24 hour news? If you
:22:48. > :22:53.have a webcam, you can join the conversation. War on Twitter or by
:22:53. > :22:59.text or phone. And the Bishop Stephen Lowe, the former Bishop of
:22:59. > :23:04.Manchester, joins us. His money to important? It is important because
:23:04. > :23:09.it enables us to continue to have 10,000 clergy on the ground in some
:23:09. > :23:12.of the poorest communities in the country. One of the exciting things
:23:12. > :23:16.is the Church of England is still there in inner cities, there is a
:23:16. > :23:20.church on every street corner. There is a priest for everybody in
:23:20. > :23:26.the country and without that inherited wealth, that would be
:23:26. > :23:33.impossible because that is the sort of funding which is necessary to
:23:33. > :23:40.sustain that. Are you distracted by the financial interests it has in
:23:40. > :23:47.the big banks? I hope not. I sat as a Church Commissioner for 20 years,
:23:47. > :23:51.trying to represent the interests of the Church in those in a state,
:23:51. > :23:57.in her estate. To ensure that money was going to sustain that. And it
:23:57. > :24:02.does. The money provides the pensions for the clergy who have
:24:02. > :24:11.retired, which enables them to have some sort of ministry after
:24:11. > :24:16.retirement but also, 20% of their salaries, as from the Church
:24:16. > :24:21.Commissioners well. It is important to have a balance between getting
:24:21. > :24:26.the money in in order to do the job that it needs to do? Given the
:24:26. > :24:30.investment in oil, mining companies and banks as well as selling social
:24:30. > :24:34.housing, and buying out-of-town shopping centres, it might have
:24:34. > :24:41.been better to have stuck its money and a bank at 5% interest 10 years
:24:41. > :24:45.ago. But it does see this investment function as something
:24:46. > :24:49.which raises money for its important work. What better
:24:49. > :24:53.approach would be to see the investments as part of the mission,
:24:53. > :24:59.so it's not only trying to raise money but using money to do its
:24:59. > :25:05.work, by investing in green technology. Local housing...
:25:05. > :25:11.does do that to some extent. Less and less. In relation to social
:25:11. > :25:15.housing, we did not manage a particularly well. That isn't the
:25:15. > :25:21.primary task of the Church of England. It sold housing to better
:25:21. > :25:30.social landlords that we were. We had to try to move that investment
:25:30. > :25:33.to enable us to do what we are good at. And maximising the funding to
:25:33. > :25:38.produce that money to sustain the Ministry of the Church is what the
:25:38. > :25:43.Church Commission is about. Ethically, we are guided by ethical
:25:43. > :25:50.investment decisions which make sure the Church invests ethically
:25:50. > :25:55.as far as the money is concerned. When this row broke out about St
:25:55. > :26:01.Gall's and protesters, what surprised you? The fact that it
:26:01. > :26:09.costs so much to run, that they charge for people to go in? Several
:26:09. > :26:14.things. I would have thought the Church would have been the first to
:26:14. > :26:20.support the protesters. I am a lapsed Catholic. I learned various
:26:20. > :26:24.biblical things, what about Jesus and the money lenders? I will not
:26:24. > :26:28.be sino week -- so naive to suggest the Church should invest money, but
:26:28. > :26:33.the image people have of the Anglican Church, the Catholic
:26:33. > :26:42.Church is different, people know that it has vast amounts of wealth.
:26:42. > :26:47.But the Anglican Church, it gives off this image of the Becker on a
:26:47. > :26:51.paltry stipend and the church roof needed mending. Pensioners putting
:26:51. > :27:00.money on a plate to save water coming through the church roof.
:27:00. > :27:06.Fundraising, baking cakes. So, for me to hear about investments and
:27:06. > :27:10.billions of pounds, that seems to me extraordinary. You're not being
:27:10. > :27:14.fair because you're talking about the church. The Church has made
:27:14. > :27:18.above millions of individuals and Giles Fraser was the first
:27:18. > :27:27.sacrificial lamb on the altar of trying to do something on behalf of
:27:27. > :27:32.the protesters. He was signed... The Church is supposed to be...
:27:32. > :27:42.What is the church for? It is supposed to be the guardian of
:27:42. > :27:45.
:27:45. > :27:50.morals, it should be Pontificate in about social injustice. Be dollars!
:27:50. > :27:58.It does not. Yesterday, John spoke about the fat cats and Industry.
:27:58. > :28:03.This should have been done years ago. The situation that changed...
:28:04. > :28:08.25 years ago, it changed the character of the way in which the
:28:08. > :28:12.Church worked. It was accused of being a communist report. 20 years
:28:12. > :28:17.later, it was called fearful cities, looking at the issue of the
:28:17. > :28:23.Church's involvement in social and economic justice and it has been
:28:23. > :28:25.crying from the rooftops around these issues for a very long time.
:28:25. > :28:31.Including the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has maintained a
:28:31. > :28:37.strong line on all these issues. Where was the church during the
:28:37. > :28:46.Iraq war? With the Church come out in favour of the Tobin tax? What
:28:46. > :28:51.about the Iraq war? I was walking up front, like many other bishops.
:28:51. > :28:56.As was the Archbishop of Canterbury. I can hear someone else, Christina
:28:56. > :29:01.or, part of the General Synod and has an advisory role on the Central
:29:01. > :29:09.Board of Finance. I know you want to comment. How does the Church
:29:09. > :29:14.justified having more than �5 billion worth of assets? We pay for
:29:14. > :29:20.most of the expenses of the clergy and also for the 16,000 churches
:29:20. > :29:25.and the great cathedrals of which St Paul's is one of them and unlike
:29:25. > :29:30.France, we pay for this and not the state. Those investments make
:29:30. > :29:35.possible the ministry that we do in every community and as Bishop
:29:35. > :29:39.Stephen said, the reach of the Church of England is there, day-in
:29:39. > :29:46.and day-out, in many invisible ways and that has made possible largely
:29:46. > :29:50.by a good investment. I do not have any problem at all. And they are
:29:50. > :29:56.being continually reviewed in terms of the assets and we simply do not
:29:56. > :30:01.invest in the obvious things that we consider unethical, like tobacco,
:30:01. > :30:05.pornography, arms dealing. Anything to do with that. So people might
:30:05. > :30:15.feel during the banking crisis that it is unethical to invest in some
:30:15. > :30:17.
:30:17. > :30:21.Not at all. That is giving a moral... You know, money is what we
:30:21. > :30:25.used to exchange services. Yes, we do need better regulation of
:30:25. > :30:29.financial institutions, but what we need is a change of heart of the
:30:29. > :30:32.people that work in them. Having said that, most of the people at
:30:32. > :30:36.work in them are people that are either trying to simply do a job
:30:36. > :30:41.well, but there are a lot of ethical people. What we are seeing
:30:41. > :30:48.in the protesters is that basically there is this deep distaste for
:30:48. > :30:51.greed, for using money in a bad way. But Christina... The unjust
:30:51. > :30:56.distribution of wealth. Would you accept that the Church is seeking
:30:56. > :30:59.to profit from activities which are causing the problems? On one hand,
:30:59. > :31:04.it is making money from the people causing the problems and then it is
:31:04. > :31:08.saying, well, we used that money to mitigate the worst effects. It is a
:31:08. > :31:16.contradiction. Why not invest, if they do need to make money, in some
:31:16. > :31:21.good schemes that do not try to minimise harm but actually do good?
:31:21. > :31:24.Excuse me, just because that question was addressed to Christina,
:31:24. > :31:30.could you just answer that question and then I will ask the bishop to
:31:30. > :31:34.respond? Yes, we are trying to do good and we are continually
:31:34. > :31:43.reflecting on our involvement. The Church has to be involved if it is
:31:43. > :31:48.to generate wealth. How is selling housing and investing in out-of-
:31:48. > :31:51.town shopping centres helping? of the things we are doing is using
:31:51. > :31:56.our investments to attend many of the annual shareholder meetings and
:31:57. > :32:02.say, for example, bankers pay is excessive. This is ridiculous to
:32:02. > :32:06.made. We are involved in trying to change the culture within many of
:32:06. > :32:10.the large corporations. As an example, we attended the meeting of
:32:10. > :32:14.the News Corporation and tried, again, to be involved in
:32:14. > :32:21.shareholders' activities. amazed we are sitting here
:32:21. > :32:25.discussing finance, stocks... wouldn't be the -- here without
:32:25. > :32:30.finance! We wouldn't actually be here, doing our work. We wouldn't
:32:30. > :32:34.be the largest voluntary organisation in the country. Can I
:32:34. > :32:40.also ask you one question, why do you charge, if there is all this
:32:40. > :32:44.money, why do you charge �14.50 for somebody to enter St Paul's?
:32:44. > :32:48.Because the running of St Paul's costs are lot more than the amount
:32:48. > :32:54.of money even it gets through visitor income. It is a massive
:32:55. > :33:00.organisation. If I want to go and pray, if I was of that nature, it
:33:00. > :33:08.would cost me �14.50 pence? Not at all, they let you in free if you
:33:08. > :33:11.want to... But you say I want to pre... But my parish doesn't charge,
:33:12. > :33:18.I was at Notre Dame Cathedral. Government is not paid a penny, the
:33:18. > :33:24.French government pays for that! just wanted to say that the issue
:33:24. > :33:29.of charging people to go into churches is a live issue. Some of
:33:29. > :33:32.the great cathedrals do not charge entrance fees. I'm afraid that I
:33:32. > :33:38.side with Nina on that. I don't think we should be charging. But
:33:38. > :33:44.that doesn't make the issue of how we keep our great cathedrals in
:33:44. > :33:49.good maintenance go away. But we cannot divorce ourselves from how
:33:49. > :33:57.we generate money and keep going as a national church. We need to bring
:33:57. > :34:04.in one of the protesters. Tanya is from octopi London. -- Occupy
:34:04. > :34:07.London. Wasn't your focus meant to be in the banks, due have focused
:34:07. > :34:15.it on the church? Which says it is doing good things with the money?
:34:15. > :34:19.It's not so much what the Church of England is investing in. It is
:34:19. > :34:23.about its associations with the City. If you look at Goldman Sachs,
:34:23. > :34:27.some of these major corporations in the city, they are funding St
:34:27. > :34:31.Paul's to a large extent. The question is, who are they sitting
:34:31. > :34:37.around the table with? If you look up the narrative of Christ, you
:34:37. > :34:45.will be tarnished with the brush of who you are sharing your space with.
:34:45. > :34:49.Are you Christian? Yes, very much so. I think she has a point. If I
:34:49. > :34:54.am critical of the Bishop of London, St Paul's and the previous team, I
:34:54. > :34:57.would say that they spent too much time at dinners with City magnates
:34:58. > :35:04.and not enough time listening to the stories of the homeless, the
:35:04. > :35:10.poor and the disadvantaged. They need to be listening much more to
:35:10. > :35:13.Stepney, Hackney, than they do to the people, frankly, of the City of
:35:13. > :35:20.London. They should be challenging them more and they should be far
:35:20. > :35:25.more vigorous in that challenge. I'm going to go back to Christie
:35:25. > :35:30.now on that point. Do you think more challenge needs to be made?
:35:30. > :35:38.Absolutely. That is where we need to focus our attention. How to move
:35:38. > :35:40.forward. Thank you very much indeed. Later, Islamic extremists want to
:35:40. > :35:44.break the minutes' silence on Armistice Day. They say it is in
:35:44. > :35:48.protest at the Muslims killed by our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.
:35:48. > :35:51.It is clearly deeply insulting to soldiers and their families, and
:35:51. > :35:55.indeed to most of the country. But aren't our soldiers are supposed to
:35:55. > :36:05.be fighting against attacks on our way of life, including the right to
:36:05. > :36:16.
:36:16. > :36:26.The question in our text poll is if You have around five minutes before
:36:26. > :36:30.
:36:30. > :36:33.It is time to look at the issues that had our guests' moral
:36:33. > :36:37.compasses spending. You were worried, Nina, about reports that
:36:37. > :36:41.fathers would not be given equal rights in terms of access to
:36:41. > :36:45.children during and after divorce? I'm staggered that this report has
:36:45. > :36:55.come out and said that it doesn't give fathers the access they need.
:36:55. > :36:58.This has been a long awaited issue. It is a really tragic issue. When
:36:58. > :37:04.couples split up, a vast percentage of fathers have no access to their
:37:04. > :37:07.children. For society as a whole, it is the most tragic thing.
:37:07. > :37:11.Children that grow up without two parents, who do not know where they
:37:11. > :37:15.have come from, they don't have that steadying influence, it has
:37:15. > :37:19.been proven time and time again, in all sorts of reports, that
:37:19. > :37:24.statistically they do not do well at school. They are more likely to
:37:24. > :37:28.going to drink and drugs, to criminal activities. There are vast
:37:28. > :37:34.social issues. It is almost a Victorian approach, saying that, in
:37:34. > :37:39.fact, if children do have access to their fathers, sometimes it is too
:37:39. > :37:44.confusing. It seems completely morally wrong. It is interesting,
:37:44. > :37:48.very often a report comes out and you get a balance of views in
:37:48. > :37:56.response. The was in response to this report seemed to all expressed
:37:56. > :38:02.some shock at the results of it? There are many policies that we are
:38:02. > :38:08.pursuing as a society, for example prisons, which have a huge
:38:08. > :38:11.detrimental effect on families. Do we need to stick so many people in
:38:11. > :38:15.prison and take away the access of children to fathers and mothers?
:38:15. > :38:18.There are those issues I wish we had in this debate. We need a
:38:18. > :38:22.broader debate than fighting between fathers and mothers. One of
:38:22. > :38:30.the most disturbing moral issues for me is the removal of legal aid
:38:30. > :38:35.from many of those seeking contact with their children. That seems to
:38:35. > :38:38.be almost a disgraceful moral lapse by the Government, depriving people
:38:38. > :38:44.of the right to proper legal access to make sure they can see their
:38:44. > :38:50.children if they need to. ashamed to say this, women in the
:38:50. > :38:54.situation, many women in this situation, they are entirely wicket.
:38:54. > :38:58.-- wicked. They use the system to deny the children their fathers and
:38:58. > :39:04.to my father's access to the children. I have had personal
:39:04. > :39:10.experience over many, many years. It is absolutely evil. Women just
:39:10. > :39:13.use the system. Social workers conspire, because it is a myth that
:39:13. > :39:17.the child should stay with the mother and the mother knows best.
:39:17. > :39:21.The mother does not know best. It is utterly detrimental to the child.
:39:21. > :39:25.You may have a view on that, it is a strong opinion. You can discuss
:39:25. > :39:32.that on the website. Jonathan has been putting up solar panels on his
:39:32. > :39:39.roof. He is rather dismayed by how much you might get from them?
:39:39. > :39:43.how much I might earn personally. The Government is slashing it, I am
:39:43. > :39:46.a Green candidate and I have had a lot of people get in touch with me.
:39:46. > :39:50.I'm involved in two not-for-profit energy companies. They are all
:39:50. > :39:54.relying on this money. There was supposed to be a huge boost to
:39:54. > :39:56.green jobs in the UK. This was supposed to be the greenest
:39:56. > :40:01.government ever. There was a poster be a massive impetus towards
:40:01. > :40:05.renewable energy. We desperately need it to fulfil targets over
:40:05. > :40:09.carbon emissions. This is going to devastate the industry. It will hit
:40:09. > :40:12.a not-for-profit companies. It pulls the idea of the Big Society
:40:12. > :40:16.into complete disrepute, when the Government will not help out those
:40:16. > :40:21.that want to do something positive in local communities. Personal
:40:21. > :40:27.impact, I've got scars on my knuckles! You put all of that
:40:27. > :40:34.effort in. Meanwhile, you are concerned about John Lennon's
:40:34. > :40:37.teeth? It this strange story. A dentist has bid �30,000 for a
:40:37. > :40:42.rotten tooth from John Lennon on the belief that somehow or other
:40:42. > :40:47.that DNA of John Lennon might, at some stage, be extracted from this
:40:47. > :40:53.and therefore we could clone another John Lennon. It's very
:40:53. > :40:58.Jurassic Park! It really is weird. The notion that one would want to
:40:59. > :41:02.create another lawn -- John Lennon. He is unique, why do we need this
:41:03. > :41:07.notion of cloning people earth so they can be repeated? I rejoice in
:41:07. > :41:13.the uniqueness of every human individual. It is fun that people
:41:13. > :41:19.are different. Do we really need to try to clone people? I liked the
:41:19. > :41:23.comment by the dentist, who spent $30,000, apparently John Lennon had
:41:23. > :41:29.a stomach problem that caused the cavity. He says, it just shows that
:41:29. > :41:33.didn't -- dental care is important for everybody. Perhaps he could use
:41:33. > :41:38.it as an advertising symbol? Don't let your teeth get like this?
:41:38. > :41:45.must be distressing for Yoko Ono to read that story. It would be awful
:41:45. > :41:51.if you were widowed and bits of your husband... A relic? It's
:41:51. > :41:55.rather gruesome. The notion that you can start cloning the relics of
:41:55. > :41:59.saints and creating new saints again. It opens up all sorts of
:41:59. > :42:04.unimaginable ethical... Made you could do that with the Turin
:42:04. > :42:14.shroud? You have been voting in your text poll this morning. They
:42:14. > :42:17.
:42:17. > :42:21.are now closing, so please don't On the day that Britain falls
:42:21. > :42:26.silent to honour our war dead, a small group of Islamic extremists
:42:26. > :42:30.will be making themselves heard as they prick the science -- break the
:42:30. > :42:34.silence. It is seen as an insult to our soldiers and it will be deeply
:42:34. > :42:36.upsetting to their families. It would planning a protest be an even
:42:36. > :42:43.greater insult to the memory of those that died so that we should
:42:43. > :42:48.be free? Next Sunday is Remembrance Day. It
:42:48. > :42:52.commemorates the end of the First World War. For many, this is a
:42:52. > :42:55.chance to honour those that died for our country and the sacrifice
:42:55. > :43:00.is that they need to preserve our freedom, as well as raising money
:43:00. > :43:06.for our soldiers and their families. For others, Remembrance is a
:43:06. > :43:13.political event and a time for protest. Islam is coming back!
:43:13. > :43:16.Muslims Against Crusades outraged many by burning a poppy last year.
:43:17. > :43:20.They are planning to chant through the two minutes' silence held on
:43:20. > :43:23.Armistice Day outside the Royal Albert Hall. They want to use the
:43:23. > :43:30.event to protest against the British Army killing Muslims in
:43:30. > :43:35.Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people, including Muslims, find these
:43:35. > :43:38.protests offensive and inflammatory. So, should they be banned? Or, when
:43:38. > :43:42.our fault fault -- forefathers fought for freedom, should that
:43:42. > :43:47.include the freedom to protest, even in ways that many find
:43:47. > :43:53.offensive? There are others that question whether Remembrance Day
:43:53. > :43:57.will revise war and the killing of civilians. -- glorify his war and
:43:57. > :44:01.the killing of civilians. It is this an appropriate time to
:44:02. > :44:07.question the soldiers that fighter now a name? What is it the duty to
:44:07. > :44:12.honour the dead and their families? You can make your point by phone,
:44:13. > :44:16.text, you no or online. We are joined by Angela Epstein from the
:44:16. > :44:22.Jewish Chronicle. Should the protest be banned? Absolutely. I
:44:22. > :44:25.can't believe it is even a matter for debate. It is a grotesque
:44:25. > :44:30.affront to the memory of British servicemen that gave their lives
:44:30. > :44:34.for this country. To defile the poppy, which is a symbol of the
:44:34. > :44:43.remembrance of the people that died, to dishonour our war dead in this
:44:43. > :44:48.way, it is utterly contemptible. It is beneath contempt. Nina?
:44:48. > :44:52.point being, we all honour and respect those that fought and died,
:44:52. > :44:58.and are fighting, been maimed and killed in wars that we don't
:44:58. > :45:06.support. That doesn't change at all. I wear a poppy, and I will wear the
:45:06. > :45:12.white poppy very happily. My father came to this country during the war.
:45:12. > :45:17.He fought and he fought for freedom. Freedom means freedom of thought,
:45:17. > :45:22.freedom of expression. This is an incredibly emotive thing, the poppy,
:45:22. > :45:26.the flag. But really, a flag is a piece of cloth. A poppy is a piece
:45:26. > :45:29.of paper and plastic. I know it is what it represents, but when you
:45:29. > :45:35.start to control what people think, attempt to control what people
:45:35. > :45:43.think or say, then we move towards a totalitarian state. You cannot
:45:43. > :45:48.possibly... I am amazed that Angela, who is Jewish, how you can not be
:45:48. > :45:53.for freedom when the Nazis tried to control things that... They burned
:45:53. > :46:03.books, to try to... They didn't want anybody different from the way
:46:03. > :46:05.
:46:06. > :46:09.This isn't controlling thought. This isn't free speech, this is a
:46:09. > :46:14.deliberately grotesque and inflammatory action that is bound
:46:14. > :46:18.to incite racial tension, this isn't about protest. This befuddled
:46:18. > :46:24.the definition. Protest is about having a meaningful opportunity to
:46:24. > :46:29.raise opinion about something you can strongly about. I do not agree
:46:29. > :46:38.with burning the flag. That is inflammatory. But I will defend to
:46:38. > :46:43.the death the right of people to think and say things differently.
:46:43. > :46:49.It is more dangerous to say that people... That is how the Burmese
:46:49. > :46:53.and the Chinese government operates, communist China. Do we not need
:46:53. > :46:58.some consider debate because it is inflammatory. There are values that
:46:58. > :47:02.go unchallenged. We only remember the troops, not civilians. And not
:47:03. > :47:08.people killed on the other side. When Robert Runcie's suggested we
:47:08. > :47:11.remember the Argentinian dead... This is what I have a great deal of
:47:11. > :47:16.issues with. This day was designated to remember those who
:47:16. > :47:20.died. If you have an issue with becoming a peace activist and
:47:20. > :47:26.remembering those civilians who died, or some issue about having an
:47:26. > :47:30.informed debate about the right to protest, that is another issue. But
:47:30. > :47:40.why hijack Armistice Day and the fact that we have identified one
:47:40. > :47:40.
:47:40. > :47:44.day... Remembrance belongs to us... We have identified one day will we
:47:44. > :47:48.can remember the war dead and if people want the legitimate right to
:47:48. > :47:53.protest, which had absolutely endorse, and it is a low blow to
:47:53. > :48:00.bring in if the Nazis, that is a different conversation. In it is
:48:00. > :48:07.the same conversation. Let's talk to Anjem Choudary, the spokesperson
:48:07. > :48:17.for Muslims Against Crusades. It is a protest which is offensive to
:48:17. > :48:21.many people. How do you justify that? Good morning. The protest is
:48:21. > :48:28.going to be very provocative and I'm sure people will disagree but
:48:28. > :48:32.what I put to your guests and listeners is that the past dead are
:48:32. > :48:38.being used to justified the war which is taking place and his
:48:38. > :48:46.engaging far more Muslims than Afghanistan and Iraq? The reality
:48:46. > :48:50.is that the poppy is being used to hide those crimes, behind flag-
:48:50. > :48:54.waving and ceremony. There are dead that it to be remembered but
:48:54. > :49:01.they're mostly on the side of the Muslims and because of the
:49:01. > :49:06.occupation of Muslim land, they are not remembered. Can I ask, for
:49:06. > :49:09.those hundreds and thousands of people who want to spend one minute
:49:09. > :49:14.or two minutes in silence, remembering the dead, members of
:49:14. > :49:24.their family, perhaps fathers and grandfathers and grandmothers,
:49:24. > :49:49.
:49:49. > :49:59.perhaps children, why take that We apologise for this interruption.
:49:59. > :50:03.We hope to have you back very If we can force a withdrawal, it is
:50:03. > :50:10.worth it. I do not think that that publication of hundreds or
:50:10. > :50:16.thousands of people slaughtered and even tortured in Afghanistan and
:50:16. > :50:24.Iraq can outweigh any kind of discomfort that people will feel if
:50:24. > :50:28.their flag is burnt. I want to ask, because the question is, this is a
:50:28. > :50:32.protest that is so offensive to those people who are trying to
:50:32. > :50:37.remember the war dead that it should be banned. And I should
:50:37. > :50:43.apologise, we did go off air for a moment. If the protest was banned,
:50:43. > :50:47.what would you do? We would continue to raise our voices about
:50:47. > :50:52.what is taking place in terms of foreign policy. It will not be the
:50:52. > :50:59.last demonstration. But I think the general public needs to be aware of
:50:59. > :51:07.what is taking place in their name. Why is it that politicians are the
:51:08. > :51:13.first ones to wear poppies? They have a foreign policy to occupy
:51:13. > :51:18.these places. I grandfather came from Russia to escape persecution
:51:18. > :51:21.as a Jewish boy and one of the things he did when he became
:51:21. > :51:26.naturalised is he fought in the First World War and he volunteered
:51:26. > :51:30.in the Second World War but was too old. He was a huge patriarch and he
:51:30. > :51:33.accepted that and he became part of this country, he would join the
:51:33. > :51:37.team spirit but that did not deny him the right to criticise things
:51:37. > :51:42.when he did not accept government policy but he did this and the way
:51:42. > :51:46.that would not be offensive. That is the duty of freedom. This
:51:46. > :51:50.country bends over backwards to endorse multiculturalism and the
:51:50. > :51:55.fact that we can accommodate different ethnic views, so why is
:51:55. > :52:00.that paid back by choosing a very special day in our British calendar,
:52:00. > :52:04.and I say this as a Jewish girl who was proud of my own traditions, why
:52:04. > :52:11.choose something that is so important as an opportunity to
:52:11. > :52:17.raise protest? The red poppy, the genesis wasn't the blood-soaked
:52:17. > :52:22.trenches of the First World War. It isn't about the war against Iraq.
:52:22. > :52:27.There are Muslim voices calling for these protests to be banned. Saira
:52:27. > :52:33.Khan is from the Muslim Women's Organisation, inspire. Why should
:52:33. > :52:37.this be banned? Good morning. Before I answer this, I want to say
:52:37. > :52:42.that as a British Muslim woman, I find the views of this man to be
:52:42. > :52:47.vile and disgusting. This man repeatedly states that our British
:52:47. > :52:51.soldiers should burn in hell. He has clarified the actions of the
:52:51. > :52:56.9/11 and 7/7 terrorists. He is a fascist and his record is far
:52:57. > :53:02.removed from the principles of the Islamic faith. I find it deeply
:53:02. > :53:06.offensive and disappointing that this man receives so much exposure,
:53:06. > :53:12.disproportionate air time, to preach this message at a time close
:53:12. > :53:15.to Remembrance Sunday. In answering the question, well, that is a
:53:15. > :53:19.decision for the Home Secretary and the police to make in deciding
:53:19. > :53:23.whether a public disorder would be a direct consequence of this
:53:23. > :53:27.individual's right to his freedom of expression. I find it highly
:53:27. > :53:33.insensitive and deeply provocative that he is burning copies and he
:53:33. > :53:37.shows such disrespect to our great servicemen and women, including my
:53:37. > :53:40.grandfather, who served in the Second World War and fought against
:53:40. > :53:49.the oppression of the fascist radiology, which is what this man
:53:49. > :53:56.stands for. My father was in Normandy as well. To ensure that
:53:56. > :54:00.family feeling. The point is that over remembrance, the way that you
:54:00. > :54:06.remember affects not just what you think of the past but how we act in
:54:06. > :54:11.the future and how we engage in wars. Is there no merit in the
:54:11. > :54:15.point That the way we remember needs to be looked a very hard? It
:54:15. > :54:20.can reinforce wars and glorified them if it isn't handled correctly
:54:20. > :54:25.and it can lead us into interventions that we later regret?
:54:25. > :54:30.Definitely, but my issue is the actions of people like Anjem
:54:31. > :54:36.Choudary, who give a very skewed perception of Muslims in this
:54:36. > :54:40.country and I am tired of the braying of this donkey, because the
:54:40. > :54:44.reality is that British Muslims are serving in the armed forces. There
:54:44. > :54:48.are 600 British Muslims who have vowed to serve in the armed forces
:54:48. > :54:54.today and we need to acknowledge that. And there will be hundreds of
:54:54. > :55:01.thousands of Muslims who have died for Britain. I do want to introduce
:55:01. > :55:08.Stephen Brown, whose son, James, died fighting in Afghanistan. We do
:55:08. > :55:17.appreciate you taking part. What is the prospect of this protest making
:55:17. > :55:23.you feel? Listen to every point, there are valid points, but
:55:23. > :55:28.personally, James was my own son and he showed so much bravery in
:55:28. > :55:38.his life before he went into the army, and to hear people condemning
:55:38. > :55:41.
:55:41. > :55:45.Remembrance Day is terrible. I am so sorry that obviously, it is
:55:45. > :55:49.having that effect, but I want to ask you about this argument that
:55:49. > :55:55.you must struggle with... One of the things that soldiers fight for
:55:55. > :56:03.is the freedom to say some very difficult and offensive things.
:56:03. > :56:08.When you hear that argument, what does that make you think? Soldiers
:56:08. > :56:12.saying offence of things? The fact that soldiers fight for the freedom
:56:12. > :56:18.that allows people to say offensive things because in a repressive
:56:18. > :56:25.regime, that free speech is censored? I agree with people
:56:26. > :56:33.having the right to protest but this protest is more than we can
:56:33. > :56:36.handle, we should not allow that to happen. Thank you. Freedom of
:56:36. > :56:40.expression is about freedom of expression and the problem is
:56:40. > :56:44.people think that means you can manifest your opinions any way you
:56:44. > :56:48.like. I could have set fire to the Koran on the programme, would that
:56:48. > :56:54.be a meaningful way of protesting against radicalised Muslims? I
:56:54. > :57:00.don't think so. Well, we have to end it. The vote is in. At the
:57:00. > :57:09.beginning, we asked if Britain is full up. 94% said yes, it is. 6%
:57:09. > :57:14.said know. Jonathan? 94%? When you ask questions like that, you tend
:57:14. > :57:18.to get opinion polls reflecting those kinds of people are when you
:57:18. > :57:21.ask, who would you like to exclude, people do not want to exclude
:57:21. > :57:25.people and when you press further and say, what about your own
:57:25. > :57:28.community? Everybody thinks their own community is all right and as
:57:28. > :57:32.the other communities that they don't know about. You have to treat
:57:32. > :57:37.these opinion polls very carefully and with great sensitivity and when
:57:37. > :57:41.you look beneath the figures, what you find is that the rhetoric about
:57:41. > :57:49.Britain being full up just falls apart, it really does. Thank you
:57:49. > :57:52.very much to all of my guests. A a and to my guests and the studio, in
:57:52. > :57:56.image cough, Jonathan and Angela Epstein. And all the guests who
:57:56. > :58:00.joined me on the webcam. Andrew Bishop Stephen Lowe, he joined us
:58:00. > :58:10.earlier. And apologies for the fact that we fell off the air very
:58:10. > :58:11.
:58:11. > :58:19.briefly. At I'm sure that you did stick with us. Finishing this
:58:19. > :58:23.thought, 94%? Just final thoughts? There are a lot of Jon Leyne
:58:23. > :58:26.warriors who are very harsh when they do this but people are kind of