:00:04. > :00:07.A British woman wants her Indian A British woman wants her Indian
:00:07. > :00:11.husband to live here. The law stops him because he can't speak English.
:00:11. > :00:21.What do you think? Is it racist to insist immigrants speak the
:00:21. > :00:35.
:00:35. > :00:39.language? Morning Live. Is Rashida Chapti's
:00:39. > :00:44.right to a married life more important than an insistence we
:00:44. > :00:49.share a common language? Grannies and shopkeepers were
:00:49. > :00:55.honoured as have-a-go heros at the bravery awards. But one fearless
:00:55. > :00:58.reporter says we should be more fearful of weighing in.
:00:58. > :01:01.There is no place in society for the There is no place in society for the
:01:01. > :01:07.Good Samaritan. If you see a happening, don't offer to intervene,
:01:07. > :01:13.The late designer, Alexander The late designer, Alexander
:01:13. > :01:18.McQueen, is making news after death. He left �50,000 to his dogs.
:01:18. > :01:21.Millions of us plan to leave to pets or pet charities. In a world
:01:21. > :01:25.of starving children, what does say about us?
:01:25. > :01:28.My guests this week have all lived dangerously, Donal MacIntyre has
:01:28. > :01:33.been a tough investigative journalist most of his days, risking
:01:33. > :01:37.his life to get hooligans locked and risked his limbs in Dancing on
:01:37. > :01:40.Ice. Therapist Jenni Trent Hughes has
:01:40. > :01:45.tried everything from oil exploration to nightclub management.
:01:45. > :01:49.She is also tamed toddlers. And James Whale lived dangerously on
:01:49. > :01:51.the air waves for decades, so far, earning him awards and
:01:51. > :01:56.threats. We would like to know what
:01:56. > :02:06.think. Call in now to challenge our gets on any of our three debates on
:02:06. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:18.Skype. It is your chance to give your views on Twitter or phone.
:02:18. > :02:20.Since last year, the law requires Since last year, the law requires
:02:20. > :02:30.that certain immigrants marrying British citizens should learn
:02:30. > :02:34.
:02:34. > :02:35.English before coming here. Plain racism or common sense?
:02:35. > :02:39.The government's in the dock this The government's in the dock this
:02:39. > :02:45.week over a law making thousands of immigrants speak English before they
:02:45. > :02:49.come to the UK. The charges, this is racist, and denies people a right to
:02:49. > :02:54.a family life. Their accuser, mother of six,
:02:54. > :02:59.Rashida Chapti. She is British, her husband of 37 years lives in India.
:02:59. > :03:03.And can't settle with her in the UK because he doesn't speak English.
:03:03. > :03:08.The government, though, says it is vital newcomers speak the language.
:03:08. > :03:11.As it helps Britain's many different cultures get along together. A
:03:11. > :03:15.significant number of new people arriving in neighbourhoods, perhaps
:03:15. > :03:20.not able to speak the same as those living there, on occasions
:03:20. > :03:25.not wanting or even being willing to integrate. That has created a kind
:03:25. > :03:30.of discomfort and a disjointedness in some neighbourhoods.. Does
:03:30. > :03:35.forcing people to speak English before they come smack of
:03:35. > :03:39.colonialism? The law falls mostly on India and Pakistan, who marry
:03:39. > :03:45.spouses from their home country but doesn't apply to people coming from
:03:45. > :03:48.the EU. Is that unfair? Or is it helpful for immigrants to already
:03:48. > :03:54.speak English before they come here? It makes it easier for them to find
:03:54. > :04:00.jobs and fit into the community. The level required is pretty basic. I
:04:00. > :04:05.live in Southall. Is the government being racist by
:04:05. > :04:09.keeping families apart because one partner doesn't speak English? Or is
:04:09. > :04:14.it more important that the UK has a common tongue to give us common
:04:14. > :04:17.Jenni, what do you think? I think it Jenni, what do you think? I think it
:04:17. > :04:20.is absolutely crucial that they learn to speak English. You can't
:04:20. > :04:24.function properly if you cannot communicate within an environment.
:04:24. > :04:34.That is the question for the text vote, should we insist immigrants
:04:34. > :04:40.
:04:40. > :04:44.speak English? If you think we should:
:04:44. > :04:47.. Donal, you are an Irish immigrant. . Donal, you are an Irish immigrant.
:04:47. > :04:51.What do you think? I am from Dublin. When I arrived in London as a
:04:51. > :04:56.22-year-old, I joked in the bars that English was my second language.
:04:56. > :05:01.Was it? No, it wasn't. But I have been accused of it being my
:05:01. > :05:05.language many times. The great joy of international city and a
:05:05. > :05:09.multi-cultural celebration of nationalities and great
:05:09. > :05:15.international world we live in today is that we do arrive in France
:05:15. > :05:18.bad English, with bad French and we struggle. So I think it is rather
:05:19. > :05:23.Stalinist to insist this. You lose interaction, communication. And I
:05:23. > :05:28.think by all means when arrive in the country, make the effort. I
:05:28. > :05:31.acknowledge that. But to insist should be able to speak English
:05:31. > :05:34.beforehand, if it was on us, we wouldn't travel. That is an
:05:34. > :05:38.interesting point. If this was something that France, for instance,
:05:38. > :05:42.or Spain introduced for Brits travelling to live the good life
:05:43. > :05:48.there. It would be terrible. Absolutely terrible. I hate to
:05:48. > :05:53.but in a way I do. I think the idea of insisting you learn to speak a
:05:53. > :05:56.language before is probably a little slightly fascist, I would have said.
:05:56. > :06:00.If you are going to come and make your life in another country, you
:06:00. > :06:04.will work in that country, you will be part of the culture of that
:06:04. > :06:09.country and you will be a useful member of society, you have to
:06:09. > :06:12.to speak the language. You have to learn to speak the language. I am
:06:12. > :06:14.sure that particular guy would probably learn to speak the language
:06:14. > :06:19.quite well. What I am concerned about is there are people who
:06:19. > :06:25.lived in this country for 20, sometimes 30 years and still cannot
:06:25. > :06:33.speak a world of English. That can't be good for them. Jenni, what about
:06:33. > :06:36.this issue about it prevents people having family life? James says this
:06:36. > :06:40.citizen from India, who can't currently come because he can't
:06:40. > :06:44.speak, read or write English, he might learn when he is here.
:06:44. > :06:48.Preventing him coming stops family having a proper marriage.
:06:48. > :06:52.There is certain phrases that are used a lot now, that get absolutely
:06:52. > :06:57.right up my nose. Things like, for example, us discussing at the
:06:57. > :07:02.beginning that is it racist they have to learn a language. As
:07:02. > :07:06.the only brown person here present, qualified to talk about experiencing
:07:07. > :07:11.racism, that is just an absolute nonsense. I want the Polish people
:07:11. > :07:16.to speak language, the Latvians and the Indians, everybody to speak
:07:16. > :07:19.English. I think that you. The whole world in fact. It isn't just a
:07:19. > :07:23.colour issue. No. We are talking about it - they are saying is it
:07:23. > :07:28.racist that you have to learn English. Of course it isn't racist.
:07:28. > :07:32.It is practical common sense. It applies particularly because it
:07:32. > :07:36.doesn't apply to EU countries, it applies to people predominantly from
:07:36. > :07:43.India, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Therefore, gives rise to the
:07:43. > :07:47.accusation that it is racist. One of the problems, Susanna, it is wishing
:07:47. > :07:49.to keep yourself to yourself. That is a problem that a lot of
:07:49. > :07:54.who come from a different who come from a different background
:07:54. > :07:58.and culture to the one in the West have. You will find most men
:07:58. > :08:02.speak the language or have a job, integrate, a lot of women will stay
:08:02. > :08:07.at home and won't mix with anybody. That's the problem I think that we
:08:07. > :08:12.need to address. Part of the problem is ghetto basically. A mate of mine
:08:12. > :08:18.is 47, he grew up in Birmingham. He honestly says - from an Irish
:08:18. > :08:22.family, a great Brummie accent, the first English man I met was aged 11.
:08:22. > :08:25.At that stage in Ireland, or Birmingham, the Catholic
:08:25. > :08:31.Birmingham, the Catholic priests were Irish, schools were Irish. The
:08:31. > :08:36.first Englishman he met was a banker. Extraordinary but I think
:08:36. > :08:40.I used to think of Pakistani families, high wife comes from - her
:08:40. > :08:43.dad was Pakistani. I can see how they develop their villages from
:08:43. > :08:48.Lamour and became a part of London or up and down the country. That
:08:48. > :08:54.odd until I heard my mate who developed the same thing. People do
:08:54. > :09:00.break out. Brits go abroad and live in enclaves. Can you speak French?
:09:00. > :09:04.No. Badly. James has a house France, has for 25 years. Why have
:09:05. > :09:08.you not learned French. I am not there long enough. If I am there for
:09:08. > :09:13.a while... You go every four weeks. We had this conversation. Also, too,
:09:13. > :09:17.the life in which you - the environment where you do most
:09:17. > :09:21.your functioning is here of the speak the language. When I went to
:09:22. > :09:26.China, I learnt my hello before I got on the plane. I was going to
:09:26. > :09:33.live in France. First thing I started doing was trying to learn
:09:33. > :09:41.French. I learned a couple of words Ola. That's Spanish. Wherever I am
:09:41. > :09:44.We have to say people travel. We have to say people travel.
:09:44. > :09:49.going to live in France tore work, to make my entire life there,
:09:49. > :09:55.would be speaking the language. would have to speak the language.
:09:55. > :09:58.Carry on. When you are struggling at an older age, it is more difficult
:09:58. > :10:03.to learn. Children pick language without thinking about it.
:10:04. > :10:08.The other unfortunate thing... This individual is in his 50s, he is not
:10:08. > :10:11.a young man. In that case, he will have to work hard. If he is coming
:10:11. > :10:15.here to live the whole time and people are only speaking English
:10:15. > :10:18.him, he will pick it up quickly. The other problem is that everybody in
:10:18. > :10:24.the world speaks English. That is a problem for us learning other
:10:24. > :10:30.languages. Patrick Hayes is co-founder of Spiked website. One of
:10:30. > :10:35.the issues is this runs the risk of leaving people ghettoised if they
:10:35. > :10:40.not know the language before they come. Is that a real risk? I think
:10:40. > :10:46.the real risk is we lack confidence in the British way of life and
:10:46. > :10:49.British values are, that will allow people to be assimilated no Britain.
:10:49. > :10:54.I am nervous using this term racist I am nervous using this term racist
:10:54. > :11:02.policy. The idea of racism is bandied around too much around
:11:02. > :11:10.Patrick, as you are making your Patrick, as you are making your
:11:10. > :11:14.point, we are losing your sound. I wonder if we can tweak your mok
:11:14. > :11:20.phone slightly and come back to us. You are nervous about using the word
:11:20. > :11:24.racist because? I am nervous about using the words racism because
:11:24. > :11:29.effectively what this does is close down debate. We saw in the run-up to
:11:29. > :11:33.the election last year when Gillian Duffy made points to Gordon
:11:33. > :11:36.she was dismissed as being a big today woman who shouldn't be
:11:36. > :11:41.in the debate. I am nervous about that language. At the same time,
:11:41. > :11:47.what we have here is a couple together for 37 years, they have six
:11:47. > :11:52.children together. They are prevented from living together,
:11:52. > :11:57.spending their 50s and 6 offices together in the UK because of what I
:11:57. > :12:02.think is basically a bureaucratic, misguided approach to immigration
:12:02. > :12:06.policy. I think Patrick is right here. You caught it right, the
:12:06. > :12:11.mention of immigration debate. For over 20 years, it has been excluded,
:12:11. > :12:18.otherwise, we are in the image of Enoch Colin Powell and rivers of
:12:18. > :12:21.blood. You make a valid point there. There is a confidence in the English
:12:21. > :12:26.welcoming travellers. If you are speaking broken English to
:12:26. > :12:32.in London, they will be engaging loving you. In Paris, it is
:12:32. > :12:36.different. It smacks of a political answer to the Conservatives who put
:12:36. > :12:42.this in to answer - they have arrived, they are in power. They
:12:42. > :12:47.want to give sop to that immigration debate. First of all, think about...
:12:47. > :12:54.Who is calling this racist? It is an issue raised by the barrister in the
:12:54. > :12:58.case, there may be an issue of racial discrimination. We have a
:12:58. > :13:02.representative of Migration Watch. You came from Turkey not speaking
:13:03. > :13:08.any English at all. It is unfair to split families up, isn't it, because
:13:08. > :13:13.one person can't speak the language? I came from Cyprus actually, not
:13:13. > :13:19.Turkey. Although my name the Turkish. I didn't arrive here in the
:13:20. > :13:23.mid-50s. My spairpts spoke some English. I wish I did. I remember
:13:23. > :13:28.vividly not being able to speak it, not being able to participate in
:13:28. > :13:32.what was going on around me. I it is essential that some
:13:32. > :13:37.should be spoken. We are not talking about degrees in language
:13:37. > :13:40.are talking about a very basic English. I would argue it
:13:40. > :13:46.important to have it even higher, at a higher level than it is at
:13:46. > :13:52.moment. Even if that means that a family is kept apart? This couple
:13:52. > :13:56.have six children. They have been married for almost 40 years. Is
:13:56. > :14:00.there not some injustice there? Look, this is not something that the
:14:00. > :14:04.Tories have brought in, as Donal just said. It is widely accepted. It
:14:04. > :14:12.just said. It is widely accepted. It follows on partly from the rights
:14:13. > :14:17.that we remember in 2001 in places like Oldham. It was that reason that
:14:17. > :14:21.led to the report which made this recommendation. I think language is
:14:21. > :14:24.the glue that holds all societies together and it is absolutely
:14:24. > :14:30.necessary that people have some language, some English when
:14:30. > :14:34.arrive here. Chris Taylor is a specialist English teacher. Does it
:14:34. > :14:38.promote integration when people learn English? Donal's first point
:14:38. > :14:42.when we opened the programme was well made. Forcing people to learn
:14:43. > :14:46.English rarely works. Adults learn best when they are in the country
:14:46. > :14:53.where the language is spoken, they are motivated, where they can
:14:53. > :14:58.We know migrants and refugees are We know migrants and refugees are
:14:58. > :15:02.highly motivated, they want to in the UK. Indeed, 187,000 adults
:15:02. > :15:07.learned English last year in classes. The vast majority of them
:15:07. > :15:11.paid for their classes. The motivation is there, of course it
:15:11. > :15:17.makes sense. But it has to come people themselves, and in a
:15:17. > :15:22.situation where they can use the English language on a day-to-day
:15:22. > :15:24.basis. Demands exceeds supply. We have more people wanting to learn
:15:24. > :15:29.English classes here than we have classes available.
:15:29. > :15:33.James, when people arrive, they to do it. Absolutely. Perhaps this
:15:33. > :15:37.idea that there are all sorts of people who don't want to is a myth?
:15:37. > :15:41.There are lots of people who here already who have come here
:15:41. > :15:49.would would like to be able or families encourage them not to speak
:15:49. > :15:54.the English. I don't know. This guy in his 50s obviously he isn't
:15:54. > :15:59.somebody I presume got married to come into the country. They have
:15:59. > :16:03.been married for almost 40 years. I find it interesting that a lot of
:16:03. > :16:07.Indian people speak English there are so many Indian languages,
:16:07. > :16:14.I believe, that English is one that draws a lot of them together. Jenni,
:16:14. > :16:18.is this a prejudice against poor backgrounds? If you are wealthy
:16:18. > :16:24.enough to afford the classes, that's final. Is that the message we are
:16:24. > :16:27.sending out? No. Because in most schools in other countries now, you
:16:27. > :16:31.can learn English. If you are an adult, you can go to the local
:16:31. > :16:35.school and learn English. I to be clear that it is not that I
:16:35. > :16:39.think - you can move here, you can keep eating your same food, wear the
:16:39. > :16:44.same clothes, you can listen to same music, you can live together.
:16:44. > :16:48.don't care. That's fine. But I don't like it that so much in
:16:48. > :16:52.environment where so much of our money is being cut and
:16:52. > :16:57.all of that, I go into my doctor's surgery and there will be four
:16:57. > :17:03.interpreters in there. Because of people who need help getting their
:17:03. > :17:06.cases explained. We are spending a lot of money because people do not
:17:06. > :17:10.speak enough English to make themselves understood. That's
:17:10. > :17:13.actually a very big problem. Of course, I think this woman
:17:13. > :17:18.have her husband, that is lovely, all of that. That's not the general
:17:19. > :17:24.point. It is isolationist to are spending money on this, you are
:17:24. > :17:29.forgetting the wealth brought in by immigrants, some of those who arrive
:17:29. > :17:35.here. As we heard there actually invest in business. Why would you
:17:35. > :17:38.expect to live in this country and not speak the language. You are
:17:38. > :17:44.mistaking the point. The argument is making a requirement before you come
:17:44. > :17:48.into the country. That I think is extreme. That is the point. Here is
:17:48. > :17:53.the thing. Listen. It is rational and normal that people learn
:17:53. > :17:58.they are here. The problem is... You should have rudimentary English
:17:58. > :18:05.before they come in. Sqer too keen to help people bring and in a myriad
:18:05. > :18:09.of interpreters to write things in all languages you can think of. You
:18:09. > :18:13.get a form now, you will find all the other languages on the back.
:18:13. > :18:16.Communication is important, do that? Of course it is. They
:18:16. > :18:19.should make an effort. I don't that you need to be speaking the
:18:19. > :18:24.Queen's English before you get the country. I wouldn't be here,
:18:24. > :18:28.neither would Donal. There should be a six-month period and then you take
:18:28. > :18:29.some sort of exam. You are able to navigate your way around town,
:18:30. > :18:35.navigate your way around town,-and-a-half gate your way in
:18:35. > :18:40.the doctor, have a job interview. If not, go back to where you came from.
:18:40. > :18:43.Here are viewers' comments. We have had an e-mail from Gloria: I am from
:18:43. > :18:47.outside the EU and professional who wants to obtain British citizenship.
:18:47. > :18:53.I have to sit a test. Why should I have to do this when I can
:18:53. > :18:57.communicate? Rocks Anna says: I am Romanian and of course speaking
:18:57. > :19:00.English since 14. I am Spocked to see how many immigrants do not
:19:01. > :19:05.English. Final thought, Donal? I think that
:19:05. > :19:10.making it obligatory, that it is wrong. I think also it denies the
:19:10. > :19:14.fact that most visitors want learn the language. It is
:19:15. > :19:20.economic benefit because it creates all the English schools. We hear it
:19:20. > :19:30.is an economic motivator. That is the text, should we insist
:19:30. > :19:40.
:19:40. > :19:40.You have toe minutes before the poll Picture this, you are walking down
:19:40. > :19:42.Picture this, you are walking down Picture this, you are walking down
:19:42. > :19:47.You have toe the road, a group of hoodies mug
:19:47. > :19:51.old lady and run off. What would you do? Go after them, offer to be
:19:51. > :19:55.witness? Maybe the right thing to do, Donal MacIntyre who has seen
:19:55. > :20:01.few crimes reckons we should by.
:20:01. > :20:05.There is no place in our society for There is no place in our society for
:20:05. > :20:11.the Good Samaritan. If you see a crime happening, don't intervene,
:20:11. > :20:15.don't offer to be a witness. I walk the mean streets, it is me job to
:20:15. > :20:19.look and testify. But to my wife all those close to me, I will say
:20:20. > :20:26.this. Kill off those Good Samaritan instincts for your own good and the
:20:26. > :20:30.well-being of your family. Until the police and courts can
:20:30. > :20:36.protect you, until your community can support you, then I say to all
:20:36. > :20:41.those have-a-go heros, retire, you will not be looked after, thanked or
:20:41. > :20:45.protected. All promises of protection in the
:20:45. > :20:49.courts from judges and outside from the police are limp and empty. The
:20:49. > :20:53.effort it takes to be good, to honest, to stand up and to do the
:20:53. > :20:56.right thing is so weighty, so onerous that the choice is taken
:20:57. > :21:02.away. There is no room for the Good
:21:02. > :21:04.Samaritan. You are abandoned, you are on your own.
:21:04. > :21:08.If you have witnessed a crime and If you have witnessed a crime and
:21:08. > :21:14.intervened or walked on, get in touch on Skype. You can join the
:21:14. > :21:17.conversation on Twitter, text or e-mail.
:21:17. > :21:24.Donal, your film there inspired by Donal, your film there inspired by
:21:24. > :21:28.something that happened to you? I am an investigative jurpift and exposed
:21:28. > :21:32.hooligans. Ten years later I am in bar with my wife. She had a brain
:21:32. > :21:36.tumour, was going for a scan the next day. She is having a quiet
:21:36. > :21:40.drink, preparing for this. I am approached by a group of people, who
:21:40. > :21:44.knew the person I put inside. I was beaten up, she intervened, she got
:21:44. > :21:51.beaten up. And somebody was convicted last December for it. But
:21:51. > :21:55.the point of it is nobody - very people gave evidence. We were
:21:56. > :21:59.abused, I was accused of starting fight with ten men. Only one man was
:21:59. > :22:03.convicted. It is me job to testify, my wife who gave evidence from
:22:03. > :22:08.behind the screen was verbally assaulted, intimidated. She came
:22:08. > :22:12.and said: I wish I never reported the crime. I as a journalist, it
:22:12. > :22:17.my job tow testify and give evidence. I was shocked I was
:22:18. > :22:21.intimidated as a witness in this court case beforehand. I felt that
:22:21. > :22:25.the police let us down. We got "no" security. They pulled security away
:22:25. > :22:28.from us. In the court, the judge offered me scant protection,
:22:28. > :22:34.afterwards, offered no It is like this, we have lived this.
:22:34. > :22:38.My wife said she would walk on by. It is a terrible indictment that
:22:38. > :22:41.Good Samaritan is dead. Walk on and it is the forces of law and
:22:41. > :22:46.order who killed it off. Because it is not worth it. Jenni, would this
:22:46. > :22:53.put you off? Absolutely not. My sympathies are absolutely with you
:22:53. > :22:59.and your wife. But I could not walk away. I couldn't do it. For me, I
:22:59. > :23:02.think that it is a spirt Tewell crime. If I walk away, and leave
:23:02. > :23:07.somebody in trouble, that I am no better than the person who has
:23:07. > :23:11.committed the crime. Nowadays mobile phones, I have like a whole
:23:11. > :23:15.raft of things that I do. When I see things going wrong. First of all, I
:23:15. > :23:20.always make sure I stand far enough way, they cannot catch me, I
:23:20. > :23:24.immediately start shouting at the top of my lugs, to stop the person.
:23:24. > :23:28.Hey, are you OK? You stop that. take out the mobile phone and
:23:28. > :23:33.it up and say I am filming this, scram. This is when you witness
:23:33. > :23:38.what? When I witness people other people. Or attacking other
:23:38. > :23:41.people. I am always right in there. I don't mean right in there like
:23:41. > :23:47.hauling somebody off. I mean in there like: You are being watched, I
:23:47. > :23:52.am calling for help. How many times has this happened? I am always a big
:23:52. > :23:57.one saying I am filming you. Probably maybe six or seven times. I
:23:57. > :24:02.have a child... Where do you live? I want to avoid the area. No. It
:24:02. > :24:08.not where I live. Good. The thing I have done in other countries.
:24:08. > :24:13.have a teenage son. If God somebody hald to my son and I knew
:24:13. > :24:18.that the last thing he saw was group of people standing there
:24:18. > :24:23.whilst someone hurt him, I would just be breast. I would rather that
:24:23. > :24:28.I try to help and something to me, him say: My mother got killed
:24:28. > :24:32.trying to help trying to help than me not. James? I
:24:32. > :24:36.would like to explore. I can understand what Donal says. But,
:24:36. > :24:40.know, and Donal will admit this, am sure. When you see something
:24:40. > :24:45.happening like that, your I am sure would be you would help.
:24:45. > :24:51.If you saw Jenni being beaten up in the street, would you walk on by? It
:24:51. > :24:57.is what I do. The prize society is imposing is so huge. What are the
:24:57. > :25:02.police and judges do when people are heckling in court? Why are they not
:25:02. > :25:07.locked up? I tell you why. they are so inyou areed and
:25:07. > :25:13.decenttised, it becomes a game. A game the police play. We have
:25:13. > :25:16.stop that. They sit in court. When the Milly Dowler story broke, I
:25:16. > :25:21.lived through that, I terrible things in court and
:25:21. > :25:25.suggested I would start a fight with ten when my wife has a brain tumour.
:25:25. > :25:29.Where were the Good Samaritans we needed them? Everybody ran
:25:29. > :25:35.cover. Nobody worthered to help. 30 people, nobody helped. All the
:25:35. > :25:40.witnesses disappeared. How did make you feel? It was in Hampton
:25:40. > :25:45.court and it has closed down. Good. There were so few witnesses on
:25:45. > :25:49.CCTV, that the jury wrote a to the judge to say where are
:25:49. > :25:55.the witnesses? That's the point. Because they have run for cover. The
:25:55. > :25:59.reason is the price is so high. Are you not sending same message now? I
:25:59. > :26:04.am making the point, right. I have walked the mean streets, I intervene
:26:04. > :26:07.and would always do that. But I am saying the victims... You are
:26:07. > :26:12.telling other people not to. Because the victims of people who have
:26:12. > :26:17.the right thing, they have been abused. They become victims of
:26:17. > :26:21.society. You have to be very careful. If Jenni is sitting there
:26:21. > :26:29.with her mobile phone, the guy is nuts and sees her, he is likely to
:26:29. > :26:34.kill her. I suggest... No. You always - one of the first. People
:26:34. > :26:41.don't care about the law. There is running distance. You won't outrun
:26:41. > :26:44.them. In the courts, protected by judges, protected by police. Use
:26:44. > :26:51.your energies to sort that system, don't use your energies to make
:26:51. > :26:55.decent people... Let's go to a woman from Witness Confidence. There is a
:26:55. > :27:04.lack of confidence in the court system if you are a witness. Yes.
:27:04. > :27:07.That is why we started our campaign. In the UK alone, there is 1.2
:27:07. > :27:14.million incidents of street violence, according to
:27:14. > :27:21.Crime Survey. In order to tackle that, we have to look at ways in
:27:21. > :27:26.which we can engage citizens. The number of street violence crimes has
:27:26. > :27:32.virtually been the same since 1997, despite policing resources
:27:32. > :27:39.increasing. Without citizens working out ways in which to engage
:27:39. > :27:46.with the justice system, and the police system, responding to those,
:27:46. > :27:51.there is - we are not going to make a dent into this serious issue.
:27:51. > :27:55.Jenni's point, sorry, that there are ways in which we engage
:27:55. > :27:58.ways in which we engage and this debate shouldn't be polarised
:27:58. > :28:03.between walking by and have-a-go hero is important. We can
:28:03. > :28:06.take pictures with our camera phones, we can call for the police,
:28:06. > :28:11.we can tend to the victim. It important that we start to think
:28:11. > :28:17.about how we can actively engage and be more confident in what we do.
:28:17. > :28:20.Paul, you repeatedly called the police, didn't you, about harassment
:28:20. > :28:24.and violence going on in your neighbourhood. You were the one who
:28:24. > :28:29.ended up facing court. What happened? That is right. Basically,
:28:29. > :28:34.it was back in 2005, myself and local shopkeeper carried out a
:28:34. > :28:39.citizen's arrest on a youth, part of the gang terrorising the area for a
:28:39. > :28:42.while. Initially, the boy begged us: Don't go to the police, I will
:28:42. > :28:47.apologise to everyone. I will take you to the ringleader's house.
:28:47. > :28:51.did that. Everything was discussed. Further apologies made. One other
:28:51. > :28:55.member of the gang went away and phoned the police, gave him a
:28:55. > :29:00.completely different story, which they didn't believe. They came
:29:00. > :29:06.around, thanked us initially, everything was OK. Then the next day
:29:06. > :29:11.I was arrested for child kidnap amongst other things, assault,
:29:11. > :29:18.completely changed their story. I went through a 15-month court
:29:18. > :29:22.ordeal. Spent a week in prison. The trial collapsed and the boys were
:29:22. > :29:27.basically proven to be liars. They admitted they lied in court. Paul,
:29:28. > :29:31.would it stop you intervening again? It wouldn't stop me, no. I would go
:29:31. > :29:36.about it a different way, if happened again. I would say to
:29:36. > :29:42.people it has been shown in recent years that the police don't really
:29:43. > :29:46.have the public foremost in their minds, they are enforcing government
:29:46. > :29:52.policy. Gather your own information, your own evidence and go to the MP.
:29:52. > :30:00.Don't give them any excuses. They have to change the policies. As you
:30:00. > :30:04.listened to Paul's story, what do you any? Both Paul's and Donal's
:30:04. > :30:12.story are terrible. That is one of the things that we are campaigning
:30:12. > :30:17.for the judicial system and police system to, first of all, address the
:30:17. > :30:22.witness experience, ways in they can address it are, firstly, by
:30:22. > :30:32.the police taking video statements. When you end up in court, it becomes
:30:32. > :30:35.less of a memory game. The second point is part of the legal aid fund
:30:35. > :30:40.going to victims and witnesses in serious crimes so they are
:30:40. > :30:42.supported. It is interesting, the point you say there. After the Milly
:30:42. > :30:47.Dowler - it is not just about witnesses but the
:30:47. > :30:51.going into correspond and being abused by this club of barristers
:30:52. > :30:57.who drink and been in the same chambers was the judge. This cozy
:30:57. > :31:05.cartel. When the DPP came out and the minister of justice said yes,
:31:05. > :31:11.the head of the Surrey constabulary said we should should do something
:31:11. > :31:15.about this. You hypocrites. Anybody knows you are in a thankless task
:31:15. > :31:18.being a witness. On any crime. The presumption is that we can have a go
:31:18. > :31:24.and harass you. The witness experience is absolutely appalling
:31:24. > :31:27.in courts, not just about me being involved in a crime or more
:31:27. > :31:31.interventionist. Ordinary people are harassed and their wilt
:31:31. > :31:37.is appalling. What Donal said is right. I remembered we were living
:31:37. > :31:41.in Yorkshire. One Sunday morning, don't know, mental, I don't know, a
:31:41. > :31:47.bloke knocking on the back door. My wife went to see what was going on,
:31:47. > :31:49.she yelled. This bloke was strange. My son and I went out, marched him
:31:49. > :31:53.down and put hip over down and put hip
:31:53. > :31:57.down and put him over the gate. I phoned the police. He was sitting
:31:57. > :32:05.there hulg abuse outside. I phoned the police. It is a Sundays, we are
:32:05. > :32:11.busy, no-one around. OK. If he comes back, we will do this. Within ten
:32:11. > :32:15.15 minutes, a portly policeman came staggering up the road, did you
:32:15. > :32:20.threaten to beat somebody up. He over there and if he comes back, I
:32:20. > :32:23.will. The policeman chatted, we didn't think any more about it. Two
:32:23. > :32:27.hours later, two coppers come to house, knock on the door, ask
:32:27. > :32:32.they can talk to my wife, my son and myself. Could we talk to you
:32:32. > :32:37.separate rooms. They treat us as we are criminals. The upshot
:32:37. > :32:43.was thought very happy. They took to the police station. I proceeded
:32:43. > :32:48.to wind them up for being so - I don't actually feel that the
:32:48. > :32:51.are doing a bad job generally. From time to time, like Donal, I
:32:51. > :32:55.been involved in criticising people who think they are above the law,
:32:55. > :33:00.make threats against you, the police come around, special part of the
:33:00. > :33:04.police. Sort out your protection whatever. They do a dangerous job. I
:33:04. > :33:09.don't want to sound as if we are having a go at the police. Some
:33:09. > :33:13.them do a dangerous and thankless job. I talk to the police.
:33:13. > :33:19.Witnesses, my view is to say this is ordinary members of the public, I am
:33:19. > :33:23.intervene because it is my nature. My we would never go to that court
:33:23. > :33:26.experience again. Many police officers privately say given the
:33:26. > :33:30.choice between walking on by and intervening and being innocent
:33:30. > :33:38.parties of crimes, watching and reporting, doing your best as
:33:38. > :33:45.ordinary punter, good citizen, they say, walk on by. As a human being,
:33:45. > :33:49.how do you do that? How do you see someone in absolute pain, distress,
:33:49. > :33:53.fear? The first thing you think when you look at them is that could
:33:53. > :34:02.be my mother, that could be my child. You ask that of the 30
:34:02. > :34:07.who watched me and my wife getting beaten up? I would like to. Why
:34:07. > :34:11.don't people intervening? We are society. The problem is - I am
:34:11. > :34:14.concerned that you might put yourself in danger the way you are
:34:14. > :34:22.talking. It is one thing that, quite often women feel they
:34:22. > :34:27.won't get attacked. They will. How would your family feel if you got a
:34:27. > :34:34.knife stuck into you because you intervened? I never get that close.
:34:34. > :34:40.Tim joins us. Good morning to you. Tim from the surveillance group. You
:34:40. > :34:44.witness crimes or potential crimes as part of your work. Do you
:34:44. > :34:48.intervene? Never. I only employ ex-military personnel who
:34:48. > :34:51.leaving the armed forces and for me. Without shadow of a doubt,
:34:51. > :34:56.they are horrified by the acts of violence that they see on the
:34:56. > :35:00.streets of the UK. It is not major conurbations, it is towns, villages.
:35:00. > :35:06.And the one thing that we have witnessed daily is that we have
:35:06. > :35:13.become an intolerant nation, the slightest bit of provocation will
:35:13. > :35:22.create a pack mentality approach to situations like this. I wouldn't
:35:22. > :35:26.advocate anyone intervening. Thank you. So sorry to cut you off. We are
:35:26. > :35:29.running short of time. I want to get to some of the viewers' e-mails
:35:29. > :35:34.tweets. Barney: I am a have-a-go hero. I
:35:34. > :35:40.would never do it again. When I intervened, I was arrested and was
:35:40. > :35:46.threatened in court. DMH: I in the York 15 years ago, on a busy
:35:46. > :35:49.street. Many people watched az I was beaten and mugged. And Paul says: As
:35:49. > :35:55.a former military officer and former police officer, I can't walk on by.
:35:55. > :35:59.It is in my nature to help. Jenni? I think as a decent human being, as a
:35:59. > :36:03.member of society, you have an effort. I don't go in from with
:36:03. > :36:07.both hands, touch anyone, grab anyone. Get your phone, start
:36:07. > :36:14.shouting. A lot of the times - cases that I have intervened in are men
:36:14. > :36:17.abusing women. Sweetie, are you OK? You, stop that. You shout and a lot
:36:17. > :36:22.of times that makes people stop. You tell them you are calling for help.
:36:22. > :36:28.You say: I am filming it and it makes them stop. You can continue
:36:28. > :36:31.that debate on our website. Thank you for the guests on that
:36:31. > :36:33.issue. Still to come on Sunday Morning
:36:33. > :36:39.Live: When you make a will, who should be
:36:39. > :36:41.the winners, your children, children star scing in Africa, maybe both,
:36:41. > :36:45.what about the millions left to animal charities or
:36:45. > :36:54.animal charities or pets? Barking mad or harmless reminder we are
:36:54. > :36:58.nation of animal lovers? You can join in that discussion:
:36:58. > :37:08.Keep voting in the text poll, should Keep voting in the text poll, should
:37:08. > :37:19.
:37:19. > :37:23.Let's turn to our moral moments of Let's turn to our moral moments of
:37:23. > :37:27.the week. This week of course we have seen the first funerals of
:37:27. > :37:34.those who were murdered in Norway. For a nation in mourning, there has
:37:34. > :37:38.been remarkably little talk about revenge. James. I don't know who you
:37:38. > :37:42.would revenge that. You could execute the guy, it wont make
:37:42. > :37:47.anybody feel that much better. My take on this is everybody say they
:37:47. > :37:53.will hold their heads in their and say: We have To learn from this,
:37:53. > :37:58.we must go forward. We won't learn anything from it. We might learn not
:37:58. > :38:04.to lock up our one helicopter, not to put our special forces on holiday
:38:04. > :38:11.all together in the same month. We might learn that. But, sadly, things
:38:11. > :38:17.like this, like 9/11, like 7-7, things happen to us and we will
:38:17. > :38:20.never wipe away those problems happening. We might have a knee-jerk
:38:20. > :38:24.reactionment we might say we will ban everybody doing this, ban them
:38:24. > :38:29.doing that like we did after Dunblane, everybody having handguns,
:38:29. > :38:33.now even our Olympic shooting have to go abroad to practise, which
:38:33. > :38:37.seems ridiculous. If you wanted a gun for illegal purposes, I am sure,
:38:37. > :38:42.Donal, we could find places to get them easily. There seem to be no
:38:42. > :38:46.shortage of guns in our society. Banning them from people who want to
:38:46. > :38:50.use is ridiculous. What we might be able to do, what revenge we
:38:51. > :38:56.get is showing people that even though they commit these appalling
:38:56. > :38:59.acts, they are not going to change the basic way human beings live
:38:59. > :39:04.together, they can't ends. That might be it. That
:39:04. > :39:08.to have been one of the feelings expressed in Norway. I wonder
:39:08. > :39:12.whether there is anything that the former Prime Minister of Norway, now
:39:12. > :39:18.chairman of the Nobel peace prize, when he says Europe's
:39:18. > :39:22.to be more cautious when discussing multi-culturalism, more defence of
:39:22. > :39:29.diversity, that Europe's leaders should not play with fire, that
:39:29. > :39:32.terrorists are terrorists they are of any religionon or none.
:39:32. > :39:33.R. I think that multi-culturalism R. I think that multi-culturalism
:39:33. > :39:33.R. I think that multi-culturalism debate has been rung through. I
:39:33. > :39:35.debate has been rung through. I debate has been rung through. I
:39:35. > :39:39.R. I think thought the Norwegians handled it
:39:39. > :39:43.very well. They didn't do a knee-jerk reaction and said we
:39:43. > :39:49.not allow this one lone wolf, let's face it he does not represent
:39:49. > :39:52.anything about Norwegian culture their thought process. It is so off
:39:53. > :40:00.the scale and lunatic and insane what he did and his politics, that
:40:00. > :40:04.basically I think we can park it away. Not try to think there is
:40:05. > :40:10.something rational in this massacre that we can bring into a civilised
:40:10. > :40:14.debate. Park it. It doesn't speak of anything other than something fringe
:40:14. > :40:19.and flawed and damaged. What we can't do is say we will do this or
:40:19. > :40:22.that and make sure this happens again. Tragedies throughout
:40:22. > :40:26.man's time always happen. That's what I think is wonderful about the
:40:26. > :40:32.way the Norwegians approached it. I was lucky enough to do travel
:40:32. > :40:37.anything Norway. At first you wonder are they really cold people or are
:40:37. > :40:40.they very solid, dignified people? One of the things I have been
:40:40. > :40:44.humbled by watching the way they have reacted to this. If it
:40:44. > :40:48.here, we would be screaming, we will ban this, stop that, blaming every
:40:48. > :40:52.political party, it was their fault. The Norwegians were basically,
:40:52. > :40:57.right, OK, you know what this is not going to change who we are. They
:40:57. > :41:01.stood up even taller, stronger and said this is not going to change us.
:41:01. > :41:05.The only problem they have is they can only put this guy in prison for
:41:06. > :41:09.21 years or something. No. Because apparently there are a few
:41:10. > :41:14.apparently there are a few instances where crimes against humanity, some
:41:14. > :41:18.sort of phrase like that. They be able to nab him. Options there.
:41:18. > :41:22.Allegedly, whatever. One of the other issues that we have been
:41:22. > :41:30.grappling with morally it a number of weeks, hacking, more
:41:30. > :41:35.evidence on that. One of the MPs has herself has been targeted by one
:41:35. > :41:39.reporter over drug taking in youth. This is the MP who was on the
:41:39. > :41:44.select committee grilling the Murdochs, who got an e-mail asking
:41:44. > :41:50.her whether she ever did take drugs, to which she said highly probably.
:41:50. > :41:54.Refreshing? Brilliant. It is saying I can't remember maybe because I
:41:54. > :41:58.ingested drugs. The wonderful thing about her, she has written books.
:41:58. > :42:02.She was one of the great sins was writing a novel during worktime.
:42:02. > :42:06.What great writer didn't? She is a chick lit and may be great, I
:42:06. > :42:10.haven't read it, how refreshing somebody lived a little bit. How
:42:10. > :42:13.boring is it we get the career politicians from 11 through the
:42:13. > :42:17.drifp, Labour Party, this is what they want to do, have no experience
:42:17. > :42:20.of real life. They go from Oxbridge to add boy's club, Westminster. And
:42:21. > :42:26.how dull and boring. She has been refreshing and engaging. She has
:42:26. > :42:31.been the star of the new Parliament. Jenni? She had to apologise to Piers
:42:31. > :42:37.Morgan or wrongly stating he had been open about... I watched it. I
:42:37. > :42:45.am a huge fan. I think show might Prime Minister. Louise. When she
:42:45. > :42:50.said that I thought oh, no, you shot yourself in the foot there. I
:42:50. > :42:55.it is ye amongst us without sin cast the first stone. I think if you get
:42:55. > :42:59.into the situation where everybody has to be squeaky clean, never do
:42:59. > :43:03.anything wrong, um end up with politicians similar to what you get
:43:03. > :43:08.in America, these faceless, gormless people who get cranked out of a
:43:08. > :43:13.machine. Because anybody with a and with a history is afraid to run.
:43:13. > :43:16.Good on her. Before we get criticised for turning into a branch
:43:16. > :43:20.of her fan club, let's remind viewers that you have been voting in
:43:20. > :43:25.the text pom. We asked should we insist immigrants speak English. The
:43:25. > :43:27.poll is closing now. Do not text, your vote will not count. You could
:43:27. > :43:36.still be charged for it. We bring you the result at the
:43:36. > :43:40.You don't need to be an animal lover You don't need to be an animal lover
:43:40. > :43:45.to have been horrified by images of pigs kicked and burned with
:43:45. > :43:49.cigarettes in an abattoir. Much the same greeted claims of unnecessary
:43:49. > :43:56.slaughter of calves in milk production for
:43:56. > :44:01.production for chock. How far should our sympathy and generosity for
:44:01. > :44:08.Secret filming of baby cows killed Secret filming of baby cows killed
:44:08. > :44:11.this week because they were wrong sex. It caused moral anger.
:44:11. > :44:15.Another example of our reputation as Another example of our reputation as
:44:15. > :44:20.a nation of animal lovers. How far should that love go? This week it
:44:20. > :44:26.was revealed that the late designer, Alexander McQueen, left �50,000 in
:44:26. > :44:29.his will to his dogs. As well as 100,000 each to Battersea dogs home
:44:29. > :44:35.and the blue cross. That is almost a quarter of a million pounds left
:44:35. > :44:39.his pets and animal charities. It raises the question: Is it right to
:44:39. > :44:41.leave money to animals instead humans? Es
:44:41. > :44:44.Animal lovers argue you can Animal lovers argue you can
:44:44. > :44:49.responsible for your pets so you should look after them in your
:44:49. > :44:54.women. Millions of us are doing so. Others would say bequeathing
:44:54. > :44:58.to pets, particularly if you have human relatives, is selfish. Leaving
:44:58. > :45:02.money to pet charities and sanctuaries may be morally worthy
:45:02. > :45:07.but shouldn't that money go to starving humans around the world
:45:07. > :45:10.instead? Sometimes pets are our best friends. If we choose to leave our
:45:10. > :45:16.money to make sure they are comfortable when we are gone, can
:45:16. > :45:19.that be wrong? Are humans always more important than animals?
:45:19. > :45:21.Have you had to share your Have you had to share your
:45:21. > :45:28.inheritance with pets? Are you planning to leave your money to
:45:28. > :45:31.animals rather than people? You can join in this morning.
:45:31. > :45:36.We are a nation of animal lovers, it We are a nation of animal lovers, it
:45:36. > :45:40.is natural that translates into our wills? What makes me sad, I know
:45:40. > :45:47.that isn't what you asked me, but the fact is that you will find
:45:47. > :45:51.dozens of people who will walk by and watch somebody being beaten up,
:45:51. > :45:56.not do anything, those same people if someone was kicking a dog,
:45:56. > :46:01.everybody would stop them. I think that's an interesting reflection on
:46:01. > :46:11.our society. I love animals, I love Oscar. I am not leaving my money to
:46:11. > :46:12.
:46:12. > :46:18.Oscar, my cat. Why not? Don't go there. Here we go. It absolutely
:46:18. > :46:21.breaks my heart. It does, that we live in a world where getting beyond
:46:21. > :46:25.the starving children around world coined of thing, people who
:46:25. > :46:29.want to be artists, writers, young people from inner cities who can't
:46:29. > :46:33.afford to go to Oxford or Cambridge, whatever, if you don't like your
:46:33. > :46:37.family and you don't want to your money to them, leave it to
:46:37. > :46:42.another human being, for heaven's sake. You are doing it. You are
:46:42. > :46:46.leaving it to the dog. The dog isn't filling in the paperwork for his
:46:46. > :46:49.bank account, he is leaving it to somebody. In many ways, the money
:46:49. > :46:53.will percolate down to humans. Do you think that is the best use of
:46:53. > :46:58.your money? It is your money, do what you want. I am not
:46:58. > :47:02.they are living deserving the of the day. Many people who get
:47:02. > :47:05.benefit from legacies, really? You don't frz to leave it to your
:47:05. > :47:11.family. Do something useful for other human beings. What does that
:47:11. > :47:18.say about us as a society? It is how we look after animals speak volumes.
:47:18. > :47:22.Yes. I am not saying don't leave money. You can leave some money to
:47:22. > :47:28.the animal charities. To leave all your money to Fido, that is insane.
:47:28. > :47:33.Alexander McQueen left 50,000 to his dogs, a quarter of a million in all.
:47:33. > :47:37.He had a �16 million fortune, which goes to charities and other
:47:37. > :47:42.of his family. James, you have how many dogs? Three. How much
:47:42. > :47:47.will you leave them? I won't have any money when I snuff it. Would you
:47:47. > :47:51.leave it to them? I would prefer to leave it to my dogs probably than
:47:51. > :47:56.lots of human beings I can think of. My children may get a little bit,
:47:56. > :48:00.there is anything left and after the dogs if they are there or
:48:00. > :48:07.whatever animals I have at that time. I have to tell you that if
:48:07. > :48:13.there was - I better be careful. If there was somebody I didn't know,
:48:13. > :48:16.one of my dogs in a really terrible position, and I could only save one,
:48:16. > :48:19.I don't have to tell you what the outcome would be. You are talking
:48:19. > :48:23.about if there was a perilous situation where you could choose
:48:23. > :48:30.between saving a human life or animal life, would you choose the
:48:30. > :48:35.animal? I think I probably would, yes. James, James, James. He made
:48:35. > :48:40.the perfect statement. I don't human beings very much sometimes.
:48:40. > :48:46.That is at the root of the problem. A lot of people nowadays prefer - it
:48:46. > :48:50.is easier to love an animal than love a human being. If you love a
:48:50. > :48:53.human being, there is fear of rejection, loss, etc. You love an
:48:53. > :48:58.animal, it is unconditional. The people who don't like animals
:48:58. > :49:05.usually behave in exactly the same way to human beings, it has been my
:49:05. > :49:09.experience to see. Obviously, there is a human being and I would
:49:10. > :49:14.probably save both of them. My dogs, I have had dogs ever since I can
:49:14. > :49:21.remember. Various other animals as well. Even chickens I got attached
:49:21. > :49:23.to. Chickens are lovely. They are not just dumb animals. They
:49:23. > :49:27.become... I understand that. This become... I understand that. That is
:49:27. > :49:33.not the question. That is not the issue. Do you put animals over
:49:33. > :49:39.people? Let's speak to someone who went through that experience. This
:49:39. > :49:47.doctor won a legal battle of four years because your parents left the
:49:47. > :49:55.family farm, worth a lot of money, to the RSPCA and you were left with
:49:55. > :50:04.nothing. How on earth did affect you? It was a shock. It left
:50:04. > :50:14.me with a great sense of betrayal. would have preferred if we father
:50:14. > :50:16.
:50:17. > :50:25.had said what it was. For me, the issue is INAUDIBLE. They are keeping
:50:25. > :50:30.secrets in my families. I asked my father what is going on there? The
:50:30. > :50:40.reason is that they are not proud of what they are doing. In our society,
:50:40. > :50:43.
:50:43. > :50:50.the idea of leaving things on to our family is endemic. It is in the
:50:50. > :51:00.Bible about inheritance. INAUDIBLE Our own society talks about passing
:51:00. > :51:06.
:51:06. > :51:12.INAUDIBLE . I thought it was up to INAUDIBLE . I thought it was up to
:51:12. > :51:18.us who we leave it to. Why tell us what we should do. There is a saying
:51:18. > :51:23.if you don't give somebody something to hold for you, don't expect
:51:23. > :51:26.the end. You shouldn't have an expectation that your parents will
:51:26. > :51:30.leave you everything that you have. Some people shouldn't be left
:51:30. > :51:34.anything, to be honest. What we have here is not just that Chris tone's
:51:34. > :51:39.parents put the animal charity in front of Christine, but she was left
:51:39. > :51:49.with a sense of betrayal. Show was left with another legacy, which was
:51:49. > :51:53.a desperately emotional response. How does the money... Right. Having
:51:53. > :51:59.the money doesn't cure that. I understand why she feels that way.
:51:59. > :52:03.Her parents betrayed her. Having her money doesn't mean they didn't
:52:03. > :52:08.betray her. It is interesting. we going to ban people from leaving
:52:08. > :52:14.leg sigs to animals? No. should be a cap on it, a �50,000 cap
:52:14. > :52:21.on it. A cap. Clare is from Battersea dogs home. You rely
:52:21. > :52:28.the legacy of people's wills, sometimes millions. What if
:52:29. > :52:32.was a cap of 50 grand? I think if there was a cap of �50,000,
:52:32. > :52:39.Battersea wouldn't exist. We are totally reliant on the legacy income
:52:39. > :52:43.we get every year. Batter sea is 150 years old. We started with a �500
:52:43. > :52:48.legacy. In that 150 years, because of that initial legacy, we have
:52:48. > :52:52.helped 3 million animals. Those 3 million animals, as Donal said
:52:52. > :52:57.earlier, translates into 3 million families and groups of people
:52:57. > :53:02.will benefit from coming into contact with those animals. When
:53:02. > :53:06.people say you shouldn't put animals before people, you would say
:53:06. > :53:11.actually it is not just the animals who benefit? It is not just the
:53:11. > :53:16.animals that benefit. I have worked in charities for 25 years. I have
:53:16. > :53:19.worked in people's charities, children's charities, young people,
:53:19. > :53:23.disability charities and animal charities. I have had these
:53:23. > :53:25.discussions with donors from every charity I have worked in about
:53:25. > :53:30.this this charity, why not another one,
:53:31. > :53:36.why people, why not animals, why animals, why not people. It is
:53:36. > :53:41.individual choice and it has to be left to people decide how their
:53:41. > :53:45.hard-earned money is distributed after their death. Sue is an animal
:53:45. > :53:54.rights activist with eight cats and two rats. People come first, don't
:53:54. > :53:58.they, Sue? My animals are part of the family. I think everyone agrees
:53:58. > :54:05.that. When you take on an animal, you take on a responsibility for
:54:05. > :54:08.that animal. When I die, I want my animals to be looked after and
:54:08. > :54:13.consequently, would I leave money. I wouldn't leave all my money
:54:13. > :54:19.to my animals. I will leave some my family. And I think the case of
:54:19. > :54:27.the woman whose family left all the money, all the farm to the RSPCA is
:54:27. > :54:35.extreme. We have to just keep it some sort of balance. I don't
:54:35. > :54:40.the idea of making a cap. Jails, we live in a world of extremely needly
:54:40. > :54:45.people. In fact, the British public have shown it is generous at a time
:54:45. > :54:50.when there is a famine, people given millions to that. So we are
:54:51. > :54:54.talking about a drop in the ocean. am sorry. That's a kind of different
:54:54. > :55:02.argument in a way. The British people have given enormous
:55:02. > :55:05.quantities of money to Emergency Committee. That amount of
:55:05. > :55:08.money doesn't seem to have stopped a lot of these people starving to
:55:08. > :55:13.death. Maybe it is time we had another rational look at how we
:55:13. > :55:18.with areas of the world where it obviously isn't going to sustain
:55:18. > :55:26.life. Maybe we have to work out these countries - I don't know. It
:55:26. > :55:30.is a bigger issue. It is a different issue. I don't think - look, it is
:55:30. > :55:33.entirely up to you. I can is a lot of starvation, a lot of
:55:33. > :55:39.things going on in the world, most of us far too much in the west, they
:55:39. > :55:43.have too little in other parts. That is a different argument. Let's say,
:55:43. > :55:48.for example, that you take ten underprivileged young people and you
:55:48. > :55:52.put them through university. Ten underprivileged young people are
:55:52. > :55:57.going to affect probably 20 people immediately connected with them.
:55:57. > :56:02.don't know how much money we are going to leave. That is 200 people.
:56:02. > :56:08.If you talk about the ripple effect, animals make you feel better, Oscar
:56:08. > :56:18.cheers me up. You are helping people. What is he going to do
:56:18. > :56:22.
:56:22. > :56:27.the dog? Named after Louis Spence. You are talking about a dog. Peter
:56:27. > :56:37.says: My son and daughter in law live in America. I hear little from
:56:37. > :56:42.them, don't receive cards, although I send cards from them. Should they
:56:42. > :56:46.expect my estate? I would like to be nice for me. I take my love and
:56:46. > :56:51.responsibility seriously and take good care of them. I want to
:56:51. > :56:55.they are cared for. Good. I am sure of the legacy of that debate will
:56:55. > :57:00.a vigorous discussion on the social media pages. You can find it
:57:00. > :57:03.website. Your text poll votes are in. An
:57:03. > :57:09.astonishing result. We asked should we insist immigrants speak English?
:57:09. > :57:18.Here is what you told us. 97% of those of you who texted said "yes",
:57:18. > :57:21.only 3% said we should not. I surrender. What did you say? I
:57:21. > :57:27.understand where people are coming from. It is not in the generosity of
:57:27. > :57:32.the travelling and the English and British to impose these rules and
:57:32. > :57:34.insist that they speak English. Jenni? I have to say even though I
:57:35. > :57:39.agree with the concept, I am shocked that it was 97%
:57:39. > :57:41.that it was 97%. Absolutely shocked. James, are you shocked? Not at all.
:57:41. > :57:45.People have a feeling we are becoming a goato
:57:45. > :57:49.becoming a goatoised society. People feel that is one of the ways we
:57:49. > :57:53.doing it. It might not be reality but that is why I think they
:57:53. > :57:57.like that. Thanks to all of you who have taken part today. And also
:57:57. > :58:00.my guests in the studio, Jenni Trent Hughes, Donal MacIntyre and James
:58:00. > :58:03.Whale. Don't text or call the phone lines.