:00:08. > :00:13.He was one of the Three jailed for the death of Baby P, but Jason Owen
:00:13. > :00:23.has been freed after serving just half of his six-year sentence.
:00:23. > :00:35.
:00:35. > :00:39.Should prisoners ever be released Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:00:39. > :00:45.Morning Live. When a criminal like Jason Aaron Lewis prison early it
:00:45. > :00:51.shocks us all, but Jonathan May- Bowles, who through a foam pipe at
:00:51. > :00:57.Rupert Murdoch will also be released halfway through his
:00:57. > :01:01.sentence. It happens too many criminals. But is it right?
:01:01. > :01:05.Should parenting classes be compulsory for all of us or would
:01:05. > :01:09.that be the nanny state made worse? Demand for real life exorcists is
:01:09. > :01:15.on the up. One Reverend Practitioner says that what she
:01:15. > :01:22.does is not mumbo-jumbo. The devil is real but God is all-
:01:22. > :01:29.powerful. I believe we've got's help I can cast out demons. -- with
:01:29. > :01:33.God's help. Reverend Hargreaves is a member of
:01:33. > :01:38.the Christian party. Francis Beckett is a left-wing journalist
:01:38. > :01:43.whose father was interned as a fascist sympathiser. He is now
:01:43. > :01:47.making it as they sit down playwrite. Simon Warr was the
:01:47. > :01:52.headmaster on the TV series That'll Teach 'Em. He also had the enviable
:01:52. > :01:58.job of caning Adrian Chiles live on TV. As we get our teeth into those
:01:58. > :02:02.topics, so can you. You can join in on Skype and give your opinion on
:02:02. > :02:06.Twitter and by telephone. Phone- calls cost up to 25 pence per
:02:06. > :02:14.minute from a BT landline. Text messages will be charged at the
:02:14. > :02:17.standard message break. -- rate. It is an astonishing fact that most
:02:17. > :02:22.criminals get out of jail halfway through the sentence that was
:02:22. > :02:27.handed down in court. The idea is to make rehabilitation work better
:02:27. > :02:33.but is it too high a price to pay for victims that may feel cheated
:02:33. > :02:37.by justice? This week, Jason alone, one of the three people convicted
:02:37. > :02:42.of the death of Peter Connelly, was released from Wandsworth prison. --
:02:42. > :02:46.Jason error. He was sentenced to six years and did half of that. He
:02:46. > :02:50.was not simply freed, he was assessed not to be a threat to the
:02:50. > :02:53.community and he will serve the rest of his sentence on licence,
:02:53. > :02:58.meaning he is under strict conditions. If he breaches then he
:02:58. > :03:04.goes back to prison immediately to serve his full sentence. He is also
:03:04. > :03:08.under close supervision from his probation officer. Is this justice?
:03:08. > :03:12.For victims of any crime that can feel like criminals are getting off
:03:12. > :03:17.too lightly. Most prisoners can expect to serve just 50% of a
:03:17. > :03:21.sentence in prison. Even for murderers, life can mean just 14
:03:21. > :03:24.years behind bars. The Government says that releasing prisoners on
:03:24. > :03:29.licence means they are less likely to reoffend than if they serve
:03:29. > :03:33.their full time in jail. It encourages rehabilitation and
:03:33. > :03:38.reform. Prisoners get used to living in the real world and they
:03:38. > :03:42.are given support to find a job and stay out of trouble. It also stops
:03:42. > :03:46.our already overcrowded prison system from bursting at the seams.
:03:47. > :03:53.But why not make someone serve their full sentence in jail, punish
:03:53. > :03:59.them properly? If a criminal has committed the crime, should they do
:03:59. > :04:04.all of the time? France's, why shouldn't they? There is no point
:04:04. > :04:06.in keeping people in prison just for the sake of it. If they are no
:04:06. > :04:13.longer a threat to the community, and we know that, they should be
:04:13. > :04:17.released. That is the question for our text vote, is early release
:04:17. > :04:23.justified? If you think it can be, text there were the vote followed
:04:23. > :04:27.by the word yes. The number is 081771. The full terms and
:04:27. > :04:33.conditions, please visit our website. We will show you how you
:04:33. > :04:37.voted at the end of the programme. Reverend, you have been a minister
:04:37. > :04:43.inside a prison. Why do we keep people there for the sake of it?
:04:43. > :04:46.Not for the sake of it but for justice, punitive reasons, and for
:04:47. > :04:50.education. The answer is very simple. Given the right tariff at
:04:50. > :04:54.the right time, when they are in court being found guilty and the
:04:54. > :04:58.sentence is being passed. If we think the sentence should be three
:04:58. > :05:01.years, so that it should be three years with a period of licence. I
:05:01. > :05:05.think that the victims would understand that. They want to hear
:05:05. > :05:10.a sentence has been passed and carried through. I can't understand
:05:10. > :05:14.why judges so one time and the reality is another. That is lying.
:05:14. > :05:20.They are given a sentence and then half of that sentence is served on
:05:20. > :05:25.licence, in many cases. They carry on serving their sentence, just not
:05:25. > :05:29.in prison. I think there is a place for prison. I make this point again.
:05:29. > :05:33.Why not say what you intend to do rather than the myth of going to
:05:33. > :05:37.prison for seven years when you are not? They know before they go to
:05:37. > :05:41.court that they will probably get half, the lawyers tell them. That
:05:41. > :05:45.is a nonsense and we have to tell the truth. At that basic level the
:05:45. > :05:51.judges have to tell the truth. You will be in jail for three years and
:05:51. > :05:58.then on licence for three years. Simon? I know they say that the
:05:58. > :06:02.equality of society is based on the compassion that we are able to show
:06:02. > :06:06.people. But really! What is the point of keeping them in jail for
:06:06. > :06:12.the sake of it. Well, you talk as though when people are let out
:06:12. > :06:17.early, we don't get any reoffending. That is palpably not the case.
:06:17. > :06:25.Reoffending levels are extremely high. And I agree. It is farcical
:06:25. > :06:29.for a judge, and it is an insult to the victims, for the judge to say
:06:29. > :06:36.for this particular crime you deserve a punishment, and to
:06:36. > :06:39.protect society, and in my expert judgment I will send you away for
:06:39. > :06:44.10 years. For a judge to so that when he really means he does not
:06:44. > :06:49.think that, he means five years, but I know you will be let out in
:06:49. > :06:54.five years and I am incorporating the after-care. You know, people in
:06:54. > :07:01.this country have lost faith in the justice system. That is because of
:07:01. > :07:05.this early release. It is farcical, an insult to the victims, and it
:07:05. > :07:08.means that people don't have confidence in the justice system.
:07:08. > :07:13.We keep more people in prison in this country than anywhere in
:07:13. > :07:15.Western Europe. If there are more people in prison than in other
:07:15. > :07:20.countries it is because there is so much crime being committed and
:07:20. > :07:24.let's look at those issues. Simon, everything is all right. Don't
:07:24. > :07:28.worry. We keep more people in prison in this country than
:07:28. > :07:32.anywhere in Western Europe and we do that because we are keeping
:07:32. > :07:36.people in prison that have no place there. I am not talking about the
:07:36. > :07:42.Baby P killer, but the odd shoplifter with no real place in
:07:42. > :07:49.prison at all. And prison is essential. Let me finish my point.
:07:49. > :07:53.Prison is essentially a brutalising experience. It is not a place where
:07:53. > :07:57.you train people to live in the community. It could be. One of the
:07:57. > :08:05.reasons why our prisons are not that is because they are massively
:08:05. > :08:13.overcrowded. They are so overcrowded. The solution I gave
:08:13. > :08:16.earlier... You are way off. People can be trained to live in the
:08:16. > :08:21.community, and they are in their alongside hardened criminals, from
:08:21. > :08:24.whom they are learning. understand that perfectly, but the
:08:24. > :08:27.solution I gave at the beginning clears it up. Look at where we are
:08:27. > :08:32.with prisons and decide that we need to change the way we sentence
:08:32. > :08:37.people. I deal with victims. And they want to hear a judgment given
:08:37. > :08:42.that is kept to. In some cases, whether it is 10 years, 20 years,
:08:42. > :08:45.that is not the point. Something has been done and when something
:08:45. > :08:54.has been done on one day and that is then unravelled on another day,
:08:54. > :09:00.that gets them. In terms of murder, some people are out after 14 years.
:09:00. > :09:04.If that is the case, that is palpably an insult to the family of
:09:04. > :09:11.the victim. They have got a lifetime sentence to deal with.
:09:11. > :09:17.let's speak to a prisoner with direct experience. John Hirst, now
:09:17. > :09:21.a campaigner for prisoner writes. What were you in prison for? I was
:09:21. > :09:25.imprisoned for manslaughter. It is nonsense to say that people are
:09:25. > :09:30.getting out too early. That is for the simple reason why tariff was 15
:09:30. > :09:36.years and I actually serve 25. that is unusual, isn't it? That is
:09:36. > :09:40.not normally the case. It can be. Some people get out earlier and
:09:40. > :09:44.some people later. The fact is that most people get out after 50% of
:09:44. > :09:47.the sentence. Can you stop interrupting for a moment? Get your
:09:47. > :09:55.facts correct them. You may be an ex-prisoner but you are not getting
:09:55. > :09:59.facts correct. Shut up, you! Hang on. John, say your piece. I was
:09:59. > :10:03.next door to somebody convicted of murder and he had a tariff of nine
:10:03. > :10:09.years. I was upset about that because I had 15 years and I had
:10:09. > :10:13.only done manslaughter. Why were 10 years added on? I am curious. What
:10:13. > :10:16.is the context? Because I challenged them legally but they
:10:16. > :10:23.claimed that I was still in after 10 years because I was a risk to
:10:23. > :10:29.the public but there was no evidence of that. That is the point,
:10:29. > :10:32.the risks to the public issue is an important point. John might take
:10:32. > :10:36.issue with it, but if the authorities think you are still a
:10:36. > :10:42.risk, you are not released early. am not certain that is quite
:10:42. > :10:46.correct. You should pay the time for the crime. If the crime is 15
:10:46. > :10:51.years... If you are putting people in jail because they are a risk,
:10:51. > :10:55.then you get the minority report. You are putting people in jail
:10:55. > :11:00.because they are a risk only. To be in jail for 10 years because you
:11:00. > :11:05.are a risk, I cannot go with that. If the sentence is 15 years and to
:11:05. > :11:13.serve 15 years, you have paid your debt. Were you accused of insulting
:11:13. > :11:17.a prison officer? As there were circumstances... I did that, but
:11:17. > :11:26.within the 15 years. This is where the system cooks up and I paid the
:11:26. > :11:29.price of 10 years extra. There is one person in there at the moment
:11:29. > :11:33.serving 30 years, and he got a tariff of 10 years. He should
:11:33. > :11:36.behave himself and then he would get five years. If you do a crime
:11:36. > :11:41.in prison, that is worthy of another 10 years and then you
:11:41. > :11:45.should serve those 10 years. We don't know the full facts of this.
:11:45. > :11:49.May I just say, France has, if we are restoring faith in the justice
:11:49. > :11:55.system, why to the judges say that they have no idea how long they
:11:55. > :12:00.will spend in prison? It will be decided after five years by a panel
:12:01. > :12:05.of experts. Why? John, your case is complicated and I understand there
:12:05. > :12:10.were issues around it. I want to get to the fundamental point here.
:12:10. > :12:16.If you are convicted of murder, or manslaughter, what is the benefit
:12:16. > :12:20.to society of somebody being released early? It is not a
:12:20. > :12:25.question of them being released early. Within a life sentence, and
:12:25. > :12:30.many people don't understand this, the judge hands-down a tariff.
:12:30. > :12:37.While some people think that life should be live in custody, it is
:12:37. > :12:42.not. You get a life sentence, and within that you might serve 8, 10,
:12:42. > :12:47.15 years. That is the issue. But my point is, to those watching that
:12:47. > :12:51.think life should mean a life sentence, what is the benefit to
:12:51. > :12:55.society of you only serve in the minimum? If there is a problem with
:12:55. > :12:58.the public understanding it, they should change the known and just
:12:58. > :13:04.call it a determinate sentence, rather than a life sentence if it
:13:04. > :13:10.does not mean that. This is where the confusion comes in. Thank you
:13:10. > :13:14.very much indeed. There is confusion around it, this point was
:13:14. > :13:19.raised earlier. Sentences don't seem to be what they are when they
:13:19. > :13:22.are handed out. That is absolutely right. There is a lot of early
:13:22. > :13:27.release. The reason that you release people are early is that a
:13:27. > :13:34.lot of it seems to me to depend on what happens afterwards. It is not
:13:34. > :13:38.just that we are setting a tariff for a crime. It is also that we are
:13:38. > :13:46.keeping people out of circulation once they are raid danger and if
:13:46. > :13:50.they continue to be a danger they must remain in prison. I do wish
:13:50. > :13:54.you would stop for a moment. If they are going to remain in prison
:13:54. > :13:57.that has to be because they will be a danger when they are released,
:13:57. > :14:03.rather than simply because we feel in some attributed way that they
:14:04. > :14:08.deserve it. Colin Parry is a magistrate now. People will
:14:08. > :14:17.remember that your son was killed in the IRA Warrington bombing. No
:14:17. > :14:21.arrests were ever made in that case. You must sympathise with those that
:14:21. > :14:31.see the killers of their relatives walking free, as they may see it,
:14:31. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:36.girly. But as we have heard from John, they are not actually free.
:14:36. > :14:42.As your former guest on video link was saying, the public expect life
:14:42. > :14:47.sentences to mean life sentences. While we have ambiguous titles, the
:14:47. > :14:52.public has a right to feel unsettled by the system. I think
:14:53. > :14:56.the crimes of violence, murder, other serious offences, I think the
:14:56. > :15:00.sentence handed down should be what is served. It is different when we
:15:00. > :15:06.are talking about minor crimes when people are sentenced to some weeks
:15:07. > :15:11.in prison. I think that is useless at the prison can do little with
:15:11. > :15:17.them and they just take up space. As a magistrate, you can handout
:15:17. > :15:22.sentences. Do you feel frustrated knowing that somebody only stays in
:15:22. > :15:25.custody for half of the period of time that you are sentencing?
:15:25. > :15:33.I think many magistrates when they are run the retiring room, deciding
:15:33. > :15:37.what the sentence will be, will be well aware of the fact that after a
:15:37. > :15:40.custodial sentence they will serve a good deal less than what has been
:15:40. > :15:45.pronounced. And if you take into account public opinion, which I
:15:45. > :15:55.think is very important, the public has a right to have a say, I think
:15:55. > :15:57.
:15:57. > :16:05.the public would find that a No, that is not something I have
:16:05. > :16:09.experienced. You do not second- guess the system. That would be
:16:09. > :16:13.difficult to apply unpractised. You're not allowed to according to
:16:13. > :16:18.the sentencing guidelines but interesting to find out if it ever
:16:18. > :16:24.crosses anybody's mind. As I understand it the issue was that
:16:24. > :16:28.your son's killer was not taught, surely that is the essential point,
:16:28. > :16:33.it is not a question... You can say that we're going to be tough on
:16:34. > :16:39.crime, have longer sentences, that is the sort of thing that
:16:39. > :16:42.politicians say about law and order and if it means anything it unless
:16:42. > :16:47.we are putting their resources into the policing to make sure that
:16:47. > :16:55.people are taught. Nothing will be any sort of deterrent if we're not
:16:55. > :17:01.putting the resources in. Let my guest dancer. I think your point
:17:01. > :17:07.about deterrence is a fair point. It depends upon arrest rates and
:17:07. > :17:12.sentencing and so on. In my case, no one was charged and arrested,
:17:12. > :17:17.but had they been, and had they been given a life sentence, I would
:17:17. > :17:20.not have expected it to happen, but I would have wanted it to happen
:17:20. > :17:25.because they took a life, so they should surrender their right to
:17:25. > :17:30.freedom. They should never get out and they should serve their time in
:17:30. > :17:34.prison. I am not in favour of capital punishment, but I think
:17:35. > :17:40.that sentencing has to be honest. lot of people in this country are
:17:40. > :17:43.in favour of capital punishment. I am not saying whether I am more not
:17:43. > :17:48.but a lot of people in this country think that there are certain
:17:48. > :17:54.criminals, particularly with children involved, perhaps deserve
:17:54. > :17:57.capital punishment. Now we have got DNA, the reason that capital
:17:57. > :18:02.punishment was stopped is because we're frightened of sending someone
:18:02. > :18:07.to the gallows he was then found to be innocent. Now we have DNA, we
:18:07. > :18:12.can be sure. There are calls for a debate on that in Parliament and if
:18:12. > :18:18.they get to a certain number of names on the petition, perhaps that
:18:18. > :18:21.will happen. I want to stay with this issue... Since capital
:18:21. > :18:25.punishment has been raised, it ought to be said that capital
:18:25. > :18:35.punishment in any society is essentially brutalising the whole
:18:35. > :18:38.system. When society kills people... Are THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE So you
:18:38. > :18:45.are a pacifist? We want to stay with this issue
:18:45. > :18:51.about whether early release from jail is justified. Reverend George
:18:51. > :18:56.Hargreaves, I must speak to you about values, redemption, Mercy,
:18:56. > :19:01.second chances, compassion. Imagine a prison where none of those were
:19:01. > :19:05.available, that giving someone a chance to come out early provides
:19:05. > :19:10.those opportunities? You have got to deal with the sewers of the
:19:10. > :19:14.problem. If you have a prison that has none of those things you have a
:19:14. > :19:22.really bad prisons. You need to be speaking to the authorities to put
:19:22. > :19:27.that right. We have got to have honesty in sentencing. Yes has to
:19:27. > :19:33.be yes, and no has to be no, as the Bible says, so we can have
:19:34. > :19:39.confidence. If you do the crime, you do the time. What you do with
:19:39. > :19:44.that time is important. You do not put men in leg irons. All sorts of
:19:44. > :19:48.things can be gainfully done in that time. You cannot let
:19:48. > :19:53.perpetrators feel they're getting off lightly by sentencing them to
:19:53. > :19:59.five years and they get out into 0.5. Half of that sentence is
:19:59. > :20:04.served in the community, some might say it is a form of punishment?
:20:04. > :20:08.but look at what we have endured in the last 20 years with how many
:20:08. > :20:13.crimes actually, because social services are understaffed, they
:20:13. > :20:20.cannot keep tabs on these early release prisoners and the rate of
:20:20. > :20:28.recidivism, reoffending, is so enormous it tells me that many, not
:20:28. > :20:33.all, but many of these criminals who are let out early should have
:20:33. > :20:37.served the full time for the benefit of society. We have got to
:20:38. > :20:43.work out what you do with the time. Five years in like Aaron's is not
:20:43. > :20:47.going to help anyone much. That is right, it depends on what you do
:20:47. > :20:52.with the time and what we do with the time is we shove people into
:20:52. > :20:57.prisons were we brutalise them and train them in future crime. That is
:20:57. > :21:07.our opinion poll today. His early release from jail justified? The
:21:07. > :21:18.
:21:18. > :21:23.-- is early. Last night's Tottenham riots were apparently a reaction to
:21:23. > :21:30.a police shooting last week. George, you live and work close to the area
:21:30. > :21:34.affected. What are your thoughts? The riot was totally on called for.
:21:34. > :21:40.I am sure there were people with other Bridgend is stoking the
:21:40. > :21:42.flames. I had phone calls this morning from congregation members
:21:42. > :21:47.who survive, they were at a Christian event right across the
:21:47. > :21:52.road from the police station. There were agitators who just wanted
:21:52. > :21:57.Bladon to cause havoc. Behind the story is the shooting which
:21:57. > :22:03.happened on Thursday which as the police have said, they say that the
:22:03. > :22:06.man shot at a policeman and the use deadly force to stop him. I am on
:22:06. > :22:13.police committees and I have actually been on a police operation
:22:13. > :22:18.were that took place. The police have been working very hard. I am
:22:18. > :22:23.not saying they have got it right, but if someone fires at a policeman,
:22:23. > :22:29.the better know that they're going to get shot back. Police are not
:22:29. > :22:35.trained to injure, the fire to kill. You're in my world knife. In my
:22:35. > :22:42.area. In my own barber's shop, I gunman came men last week. Just
:22:42. > :22:49.near my office. The gunmen have to know that if you're going to live
:22:49. > :22:56.by the sword, you die by the sword. Most of our community actually know
:22:56. > :23:02.that this young man was a tearaway. It is not a reason to be looting,
:23:02. > :23:07.pillaging, burning down places. It is totally out of order. We do not
:23:07. > :23:11.know the facts and the Tottenham MP, David Lammy, I mean, we do not know
:23:11. > :23:17.the individual either, but David Lammy has said that true justice
:23:18. > :23:21.can only follow a thorough investigation. Yes, but what I want
:23:21. > :23:26.to say is that someone in that community we are speaking about, I
:23:26. > :23:35.am not speaking about Belfast riots, I am talking about my community,
:23:35. > :23:39.and we're fed up of gun crime and people mugging people. To try and
:23:39. > :23:44.use this as a trigger point and burning down the city, it is
:23:44. > :23:51.absolutely wrong. I think George's rushing to judgment which is really
:23:51. > :23:57.not very Christian of him. We do not know anything of this incident
:23:57. > :24:07.yet to rush to the conclusions that George has just jumped to. With
:24:07. > :24:07.
:24:07. > :24:12.respect, I know people... George, let me... No, you're saying
:24:12. > :24:17.something that is wrong. I could say more, but we are on live
:24:17. > :24:21.television. I am only saying what the police have said, that there
:24:21. > :24:27.was gunfire. There is an investigation going on. I am sure
:24:27. > :24:35.that you could say more, but let me say something. I realise how much
:24:35. > :24:39.you want law and order. The police do have a problem in this country.
:24:39. > :24:44.They have the problem that they have lost the trust has a number of
:24:44. > :24:49.communities. I have recently been writing stories about an entirely
:24:49. > :24:53.different sort of community where the police, to some extent, and
:24:53. > :24:58.this is the policing of football matches, the police, to some extent
:24:58. > :25:03.through their own fault, the police have lost the trust of the people.
:25:03. > :25:08.What do you want them to do? Read them bedtime stories? The police
:25:08. > :25:12.have made enormous steps. The police have gone out of their way
:25:12. > :25:17.since 1984, they have gone out of their way to try and get social
:25:17. > :25:26.governance. The police have lost the trust of the people they're
:25:26. > :25:30.supposed to be policing. How have they done that? Please, just let me
:25:30. > :25:34.finish. They have got to regain that trust and they have got to
:25:34. > :25:39.regain it by showing their trying to police those communities in a
:25:39. > :25:46.fair way. I do not know exactly what has happened in Tottenham...
:25:46. > :25:51.We do. We know what has been going on in the last 12 hours. There is
:25:51. > :25:57.violence, looting, people throwing things at the police. We can see
:25:57. > :26:01.all of that on television. Whatever happened on Thursday is no excuse
:26:01. > :26:07.for setting fire to police cars and buses, to endangering people's
:26:07. > :26:13.lives. People have shops in Tottenham High Street and burning
:26:13. > :26:18.down the premises...? What would one and that? I think a major part
:26:18. > :26:22.of the problem we have got now is exactly that sorted ignorant knee-
:26:22. > :26:27.jerk reaction. You shout out the horrific things that people are
:26:27. > :26:32.doing and you do not wait to find out what has happened. You say that
:26:32. > :26:37.he had seen the television, you know what has happened. You do not
:26:37. > :26:44.know what has happened. We will know what has happened in a while.
:26:44. > :26:48.I am sure we will, and we will discuss it then. Very briefly.
:26:48. > :26:53.worked for Brian Paddick for two years on the protocol for stop-and-
:26:53. > :26:57.search so there would be better relationships within the community.
:26:57. > :27:07.I took on that committee because I could remember the search lots back
:27:07. > :27:15.in the 1970s and 1980s. That cost a lot of resentment. It was all
:27:15. > :27:20.wasted because the politicians over road it. Politicians are hampering
:27:20. > :27:25.some very good community work. local MP has called for peace and
:27:25. > :27:30.full understanding of the facts. Coming up on Sunday Morning Live,
:27:30. > :27:34.could be the devil be to blame for the adultery? That is what one of
:27:34. > :27:40.our guess later on believes and she says her exorcism can halt those
:27:40. > :27:50.who are playing away. You can join in by a webcam, by phone, by e-mail
:27:50. > :27:50.
:27:50. > :27:56.It is a worry that afflicts all brand new parents, how on earth do
:27:56. > :28:00.I bring up my child, and what happens if I get it wrong? From Dr
:28:00. > :28:06.Spock to Dr Hilary, a whole advice Industry offers conflicting notions
:28:06. > :28:10.of how to bring a baby. Simon has chosen not to have children but
:28:10. > :28:15.sees things that people who do should be taught how to do it
:28:15. > :28:19.properly. Should parenting classes be compulsory for all of us?
:28:20. > :28:25.Children may bring us joy but they also bring a lot of angst, how can
:28:25. > :28:32.we make sure our children grow up happy, successful and well
:28:32. > :28:35.adjusted? Even high-profile parents know how difficult it is. I also
:28:35. > :28:40.understand the anxiety as well as the joys of painting with three
:28:40. > :28:45.young boys of my own. And new report says that many parents need
:28:46. > :28:51.basic tips on bringing up their children. We should reward paints
:28:51. > :28:55.with extra child benefit if they go to parenting classes. But his
:28:55. > :28:59.painting instinctive for can the Government teach us how to do it,
:28:59. > :29:06.and if that is possible, should we all not have to go to painting
:29:06. > :29:09.School, no matter how rich or poor? If we all learnt how to look after
:29:09. > :29:15.our children, there would probably be less youth crime and fewer
:29:15. > :29:20.children taken into care. Perhaps we would all be happier. But
:29:20. > :29:24.compulsory parenting classes also smacks of Stalinism, a literal
:29:24. > :29:30.nanny state. The relationship between every parent and child is
:29:30. > :29:35.so individual that perhaps mum and dad know best. If painting comes
:29:35. > :29:41.naturally, perhaps we should be left to get on with it or could we
:29:41. > :29:46.all benefit from a visit from super nanny? Simon, you are a teacher,
:29:46. > :29:54.would parenting classes help some of your pupils? When they become
:29:54. > :29:57.parents, yes. Or simply as children? Perhaps. I just think
:29:57. > :30:04.that the decline in parenting skills has been probably one of the
:30:05. > :30:14.biggest social changes in this country in the last 30 or 40 years.
:30:15. > :30:16.
:30:16. > :30:24.On the one hand we have sexless youths having unprotected sex.
:30:24. > :30:29.-- feckless youths. If we are lucky and the father stays with the baby,
:30:29. > :30:34.he does not have much idea how to raise the child. On the other hand
:30:34. > :30:39.we have parents trying to pay off a mortgage, inflated house prices,
:30:39. > :30:47.house prices far too high, so both parents have to leave the children
:30:47. > :30:52.to go out to work. The net result is poor parenting. If you look at
:30:52. > :30:57.some of the subjects on the school curriculum, things like cooking and
:30:57. > :31:02.media studies, it might be a better idea... Cooking is a part of good
:31:02. > :31:06.painting for some people. I think there are more important issues.
:31:06. > :31:16.There are other issues that are more important, like painting
:31:16. > :31:17.
:31:17. > :31:21.skills. I am not speaking about So you think it should not just be
:31:21. > :31:27.compulsory for parents but part of the national curriculum? Absolutely.
:31:27. > :31:30.Part of this is part of personal and social education. It is
:31:30. > :31:38.instilling the values of routine, have to hold a knife and fork,
:31:38. > :31:43.speaking properly. Francis, compulsory parenting from all would
:31:44. > :31:47.produce better parents? I don't think it would. One of the
:31:47. > :31:52.difficulties is that we are trying to drive all parents down one set
:31:52. > :31:56.of tracks. We are trying to say that every single parent has to do
:31:56. > :32:02.it in exactly the same sort of way. I hope I have been a fairly
:32:02. > :32:07.reasonable parent but I have done all sorts of things that an awful
:32:07. > :32:11.lot of people might disapprove of. They might feel did not work at all.
:32:11. > :32:16.I am quite happy with the idea that there will be some sort of
:32:16. > :32:21.Government campaign to persuade us of the basics, like spending more
:32:21. > :32:26.time with our children, those of us that don't, but I don't think there
:32:26. > :32:32.is any evidence whatsoever that parenting skills have declined.
:32:32. > :32:42.There is! There is no hard evidence. The air is hard evidence.
:32:42. > :32:43.
:32:44. > :32:47.showed me what it is. One cannot hear and Now. -- show me what it is.
:32:47. > :32:52.It is interlinked with things like youth crime. It is part and parcel
:32:52. > :32:59.of it. So there is no hard evidence that parenting skills have declined
:32:59. > :33:03.over 15 years. I think there is some kind of prejudice but no hard
:33:03. > :33:09.evidence. What is actually going on is that most people are struggling
:33:09. > :33:13.to be good parents in their own way. That is the point. Parenting is not
:33:13. > :33:19.easy and a bit of support and help would help people. Support, when
:33:19. > :33:29.needed, in anything is good. I agree with a left winger over here.
:33:29. > :33:29.
:33:29. > :33:36.I would go the route of everybody has to go down the same, compulsory
:33:36. > :33:41.route. I am dead against that, because who decides which values
:33:41. > :33:46.are taught? We cannot even get basic values agreed. Discipline,
:33:46. > :33:54.how do you discipline? They naughty step or slapping? We cannot even
:33:54. > :34:01.decide. Let me speak. We had Nick Clegg up there, he was saying that
:34:01. > :34:05.in schools they should force, force, this is a Liberal Democrat, to
:34:05. > :34:10.teach that homosexuality is good and right. That is not anything I
:34:10. > :34:14.would teach in my school. You might. I should not be forced to do that.
:34:14. > :34:18.Should I be forced at home to teach that? Like the people that could
:34:18. > :34:24.not foster a child because of their opinion? People have different
:34:24. > :34:28.thoughts. I do support parenting classes. I worked for Barnardo's
:34:28. > :34:32.and we created parenting classes. It should be available and offered
:34:32. > :34:38.where there are problems within a family. I think the Ritter problems
:34:38. > :34:41.within families goes way back. -- the route of problems. It goes back
:34:41. > :34:47.to the fact that authority in the home has been stolen from parents
:34:47. > :34:52.and given elsewhere. Julie is a feminist and writer. You think that
:34:52. > :34:56.parenting classes would be a good idea. How do you address the point
:34:56. > :35:01.of what would be in them? I think first of all what we have to
:35:01. > :35:06.recognise is that many men have had lead parenting to their female
:35:06. > :35:10.partners would really benefit from learning how to raise children, and
:35:10. > :35:15.how to teach basic right and wrong. Of course your best is right, we do
:35:15. > :35:23.have different values and opinions on what children should be taught.
:35:23. > :35:30.But it is not about that. It is not teaching weather being gay is
:35:30. > :35:37.compulsory, which is what he was suggesting. If I could just finish.
:35:37. > :35:42.I am appalled at some of the sense of entitlement and bad manners
:35:42. > :35:47.displayed by privileged children. This is often how their parents
:35:47. > :35:57.behaved. But often working mothers, single mothers, are blamed for
:35:57. > :35:57.
:35:57. > :36:02.producing feckless children. The working classes of and -- are often
:36:02. > :36:07.blamed for producing unpleasant children, but I live in an affluent
:36:07. > :36:12.area where you will meet some very rude children. I think the teaching
:36:12. > :36:16.of decent manners, that is old fashioned but relevant. Less steel
:36:16. > :36:23.with a specific issue, discipline. Your child is not doing what you
:36:23. > :36:31.want, despite them being asked 20 times. That is a common complaint.
:36:31. > :36:36.Is it the naughty step, some physical discipline, treats, bribes,
:36:36. > :36:42.punishment? There could be a different agenda for any class.
:36:42. > :36:46.what we have to do is abide by the law. Actually there are laws
:36:46. > :36:50.against physical assaults upon children. Just as there are about
:36:50. > :36:56.physical assaults upon adults. Of course we would not go that route.
:36:56. > :36:59.We should not and nor would we. The law comes down very harshly on
:36:59. > :37:09.parents that to use physical disciplining of children. I would
:37:09. > :37:13.hope that is the case. What we have to do is to teach parents how to be
:37:13. > :37:18.responsible for raising their children, how to stop running into
:37:18. > :37:23.the road, have to stop them being disruptive in public places.
:37:23. > :37:29.Because they have good manners. It is not a matter of harsh discipline.
:37:29. > :37:34.Richard, you think that parenting classes should be compulsory. At
:37:34. > :37:37.what cost? I think they should be compulsory for people that are
:37:37. > :37:42.wholly dependent on the state. If they are manifestly failing their
:37:42. > :37:45.children, we should call that a kind of child abuse. We should be
:37:45. > :37:55.saying to ourselves that we should offer them parenting help, of
:37:55. > :37:56.
:37:57. > :38:00.course. And if they refuse it, then it is apparent in boot camp. --
:38:00. > :38:04.parenting boot camp. The number of families failing is colossal. The
:38:04. > :38:08.state has to pay for a huge amount of it and I think it has a right
:38:08. > :38:12.and an obligation to say that we need to see better parenting coming
:38:12. > :38:17.out of the huge investment that we are making. I am not clear about
:38:17. > :38:22.that. You seem to be siding with me and yet I don't agree with one word
:38:22. > :38:28.you are saying. How can it possibly be that there can be parenting
:38:28. > :38:31.classes for the poor, but not for the rich? Is there any evidence
:38:31. > :38:38.that the poor are worse parents than the rich? I am not a whereof
:38:38. > :38:45.any. Anecdotally, I must say, from what I have seen, as Julie was
:38:45. > :38:49.saying, the affluent middle class can be just as bad as anybody.
:38:49. > :38:53.don't think we find that the rude children from middle-class homes
:38:53. > :39:00.struggle to get into university and make something of their lives and
:39:00. > :39:04.become contributors. I think there is evidence of a large number of
:39:04. > :39:08.people that we might call the under class that systematically fail to
:39:08. > :39:12.master even the rudiments of education, generation after
:39:12. > :39:16.generation. I just think some people are palpably ill-equipped to
:39:17. > :39:21.be parents. They talk about human rights, it is a human right to have
:39:22. > :39:24.children. What about the human right of the child? The moral
:39:24. > :39:29.obligation of that child being brought into the world? They think
:39:29. > :39:33.that is an extremely important point. There is a moral obligation
:39:33. > :39:40.for the child to be parented by their parents. In society, the
:39:40. > :39:45.authority has been taken away from parents. I see this particularly in
:39:45. > :39:51.the East End where I am. A mother is not sure whether she can smack.
:39:51. > :39:55.Would all hell broke loose in her life with the social services? Not
:39:56. > :40:02.sure whether grounding somebody... Cow and parenting classes help with
:40:02. > :40:07.that issue? -- can parenting classes help? They can but I see
:40:07. > :40:16.this time and again. Children are running up tired line, and it put
:40:16. > :40:24.the fear offer man and God into the parent. -- the child is telephoning
:40:24. > :40:29.ChildLine. These classes would show the parents the dangers of alcohol,
:40:29. > :40:35.drugs, knives. These things that have escalated. Children drinking
:40:36. > :40:42.too much. All these issues... am not sure that parenting classes
:40:42. > :40:47.run by Mr angry would be of any use to anybody. We do that in the
:40:47. > :40:53.church. We call it Sunday-school. Make it compulsory then. I would
:40:53. > :41:01.not do that. They would call me a Christian Taliban. Let's speak to
:41:01. > :41:07.an expert on this. Helping parents deal with their children, what
:41:07. > :41:12.could possibly be wrong? There is an awful lot wrong with handing
:41:12. > :41:17.over the job to the state. If they did it beautifully, we could all
:41:17. > :41:21.look at children's homes and say, gosh, that is how you do it. But
:41:21. > :41:28.children's homes of the road to ruin. But children's homes are
:41:28. > :41:36.places where people have already had trouble with their parents. Why
:41:36. > :41:41.not intervene early? The state produces all kinds of casualties.
:41:41. > :41:45.40% don't go to school. 70% of children on remand have been in
:41:45. > :41:52.children's homes. I know they come from disadvantaged homes, but the
:41:52. > :42:00.state cannot even run the country. Why do they want to get into the
:42:00. > :42:08.family? Many parents of very good. I think it would be really good to
:42:08. > :42:13.have compulsory parenting classes in schools. Many of them cannot
:42:13. > :42:19.even have read and write. Let's see what viewers say about this. At
:42:19. > :42:24.least you need a licence to have a dog. Anybody can have a child. This
:42:24. > :42:28.person says that parenting skills classes would be taken by parents
:42:28. > :42:32.that care and avoided by those that should be taking them. And this
:42:32. > :42:36.person says, the ones that are better off are the ones that put
:42:36. > :42:41.your job before your child, but actually the poorer families spend
:42:41. > :42:46.more time with their children. should pay women to stay at home
:42:46. > :42:51.and have children. I think there should be state financial help.
:42:51. > :42:55.That sounds like a debate for another time. If you agree, you can
:42:55. > :43:00.continue on the website. You have been voting on our poll. Is early
:43:00. > :43:04.release from jail justified? That poll is closing now, so please do
:43:04. > :43:08.not text in because you could be charged and it will not count. We
:43:08. > :43:13.will bring you the results at the end of the programme.
:43:13. > :43:17.This is where we say goodbye to Simon and introduce our next guest.
:43:17. > :43:22.This is the issue we are talking about now. If you recognise that
:43:22. > :43:29.you are run alcoholic, drug user or sex addict, you want treatment but
:43:29. > :43:39.where do you go? Your GP? A therapist? We to give credibility
:43:39. > :43:41.
:43:41. > :43:46.to seeing an exorcist? -- would you give credibility? Reverend betty --
:43:46. > :43:51.Betty King does just that. devil is real. God has given me the
:43:51. > :43:58.grace to cast doubt the demon. Because God has given man free will,
:43:58. > :44:04.the devil can deceive us into acting against our nature. These
:44:04. > :44:08.evil spirits can take on many forms. We have seen many evil spirits like
:44:08. > :44:12.Hitler, paedophiles, murderers. But the devil should not be feared
:44:12. > :44:18.because God can give the strength to cast these spirits out of people
:44:18. > :44:23.if they are willing. I have dealt with both men and women that have
:44:23. > :44:30.come to me filled with the spirit of last. This strained their
:44:30. > :44:35.marriages and relationships. While we can cast out these demons, the
:44:35. > :44:40.person must be willing and repentant. Then we take them
:44:40. > :44:45.through counselling. At one time, I was possessed by demons and I know
:44:45. > :44:52.I tried everything. But it was when I found God that God completely set
:44:52. > :45:01.me free. Welcome to Reverend Betty King. If you have a webcam, you can
:45:01. > :45:07.join the conversation using Skype. You say you were possessed by
:45:07. > :45:15.demons? Yes, at one time in my life I was addicted to alcohol. I grew
:45:15. > :45:19.up in a home where my mother never drank. Many people would say that I
:45:19. > :45:24.saw these things in my home, but my mother was very godly and I never
:45:24. > :45:30.saw her drinking or smoking. When I was going through a certain time of
:45:30. > :45:36.my life, although I knew to pray, I felt drawn to alcohol. I just took
:45:36. > :45:40.a sip of vodka. Within about one month, I was addicted to alcohol. I
:45:40. > :45:46.used to drink about two bottles of vodka every day and smoke about 40
:45:46. > :45:50.cigarettes. My children were very young at the time. My youngest
:45:50. > :45:55.child was six weeks old. Although I knew in my heart that what I was
:45:55. > :46:00.doing was wrong, I could not stop it. I used to call my doctor,
:46:00. > :46:04.saying to her, can you give me something to stop drinking? It was
:46:04. > :46:08.like a struggle. I would wake up in the night. I remember one time I
:46:08. > :46:12.actually got up and ordered a taxi at 3 o'clock in the morning to go
:46:12. > :46:16.to the only place I could buy alcohol, in Willesden Green. And I
:46:16. > :46:26.left my son in bed alone with his older brother to go and get alcohol.
:46:26. > :46:28.
:46:28. > :46:38.Many people would seek help in that situation, but did he seek an
:46:38. > :46:42.exorcism? Yes, but not straightaway. I continued drinking. Mind over
:46:42. > :46:49.matter was not changing anything. I realised, where is this coming
:46:49. > :46:57.from? Why have I suddenly given into this? I am passionate about
:46:57. > :47:03.this, I can speak to someone about it. I realised that if you read
:47:03. > :47:08.more of the Bible, the desire to drink leaves you. Bucolic an
:47:08. > :47:12.exorcism, we collared deliverance. Reverend George Hargreaves, you're
:47:12. > :47:22.also a Christian, do you recognise what the reverend is speaking
:47:22. > :47:31.
:47:31. > :47:39.about? Yes, it is there in the Bible. Jesus cast out the demons.
:47:39. > :47:44.In Mark nine, a man's son was having a fit, and Jesus cast out
:47:44. > :47:50.the demons. This is in the Christian faith, it is basic
:47:50. > :47:54.Christianity. We believe in demon possession. Where there could be a
:47:54. > :48:04.problem it is seeing a demon under everything, and did the men in
:48:04. > :48:08.
:48:08. > :48:13.everything. -- a demon. This is where CS Lewis made an important
:48:13. > :48:22.point. Either the devil exists and will try to make you think he is
:48:22. > :48:27.everywhere, or as he does not exist. Theologically, we are on solid
:48:28. > :48:33.ground. Whether you can say a spirit of alcoholism possessed to,
:48:33. > :48:40.but from a theological standpoint, Jesus was an exorcist. Does this
:48:40. > :48:48.have a place in 21st Century Society? No, I think this is the
:48:48. > :48:53.most terrible rubbish. But you're an atheist? Yes. I congratulate
:48:53. > :48:58.Betty King on overcoming alcoholism. I have seen a very dear friend
:48:58. > :49:03.struggle with it and fail, so congratulations on that, but I
:49:03. > :49:08.think you're underestimating your own part in that. I think he took
:49:08. > :49:13.the decision to do that and you succeeded. It seems to me that
:49:13. > :49:16.there was a contradiction at the heart of the film you made there.
:49:16. > :49:22.You said that God gives us free will bat at the same time the devil
:49:22. > :49:28.takes us over. Then later you said that I had free will, but I
:49:28. > :49:33.struggled and struggled and could not do it. But the fact is that you
:49:33. > :49:37.did do it. It is making it Fakih easy to say that something comes in
:49:37. > :49:45.from outside and takes you over Suvi do not have any choice about
:49:45. > :49:50.becoming an alcoholic. You have the choice. Is that we are free will
:49:50. > :49:58.comes in, Francis? Later to say that you had no choice, you did
:49:58. > :50:03.have a choice. You made the choice and you were determined. You stop.
:50:03. > :50:10.It seems to me that every other word in that recitation of yours
:50:10. > :50:18.needs to be defined. -- in that presentation. What is a demon? What
:50:18. > :50:23.is the spirit that you are speaking about? I cannot see them. I can see
:50:23. > :50:28.a woman sitting beside me who overcame alcoholism and
:50:28. > :50:34.congratulations on that, to you, not to some sort of spirit that
:50:34. > :50:38.took you over and enabled you to do that. Thank you very much for what
:50:38. > :50:44.you have just said. I wish I could take the glory that I had
:50:44. > :50:51.completely on my own overcome alcoholism. I am a mother-of-three
:50:51. > :50:55.children, a mother with two young children, and I love my children. I
:50:55. > :51:00.do not think any mother would want to see two innocent children and
:51:00. > :51:06.drink. I did everything in my will, in my strength, I did everything
:51:06. > :51:12.that I could, and I know without a shadow of the doubt, of whether you
:51:12. > :51:15.believe in God or not, I believe in God. It's one of these things that
:51:16. > :51:22.I think the BBC is doing brilliantly is discussing this in
:51:22. > :51:27.this day and age were all around us things are falling. People are
:51:27. > :51:32.beginning to drink and take drugs and various things. There is an
:51:32. > :51:35.imbalance in this country. You may think that we chose to do that, but
:51:35. > :51:39.the devil uses different opportunities to mess up the lives
:51:40. > :51:44.of people. You feel that you were helped in this way but I want to
:51:44. > :51:49.introduce you to a man who is from recovering fundamentalists. He
:51:49. > :51:57.joins us from the United States this morning. You experience this
:51:57. > :52:04.as a teenager, but you'd done that think it is a positive experience?
:52:04. > :52:08.-- but you do not think it is a positive experience. No, I do not.
:52:08. > :52:17.As a teenager, I became convinced that we were being attacked by
:52:17. > :52:22.demons, me and some friends. I thought I was being attacked.
:52:22. > :52:26.Several other teams in the church youth group started praying over me
:52:26. > :52:30.in a ritual like fashion to cast doubt the demons. The whole
:52:30. > :52:37.experience created a climate of fear in my life by reinforcing the
:52:37. > :52:41.paranoia that I was being attacked by demons. It also reinforced this
:52:41. > :52:46.dependence on a very dogmatic belief system without a cure.
:52:46. > :52:53.do you think had actually made you feel bad? I had a friend he
:52:53. > :52:58.believed he was being attacked by demons. There was a very prevalent
:52:58. > :53:03.belief among other people I was associated with at the time. I
:53:03. > :53:09.think it was a serious state of fear in psychology at work, not
:53:09. > :53:15.anything supernatural. That is completely untrue. You were raised
:53:15. > :53:23.in an evangelical church. God is love. When you know that
:53:23. > :53:33.deliverance is taking place, why would you fear? Show me wide --
:53:33. > :53:39.show me why God is love? Let me finish. God Islam. When deliverance
:53:39. > :53:43.is taking place, it comes from a place of love. Many of us are bound
:53:43. > :53:51.by the spirits because of a fear, one fear or another, fear of
:53:51. > :53:56.rejection. I was rejected, that is why I started drinking, but the
:53:56. > :54:04.love of God comes to cast doubt these demons. Why would you be
:54:04. > :54:11.afraid? All you are left with his fear. You are never left with fear
:54:11. > :54:14.in deliverance. It is interesting that you, deliverance, because we
:54:14. > :54:19.would collect exorcism. It is like a clever rebranding that has been
:54:19. > :54:25.done there. If you have that background, you know it is called
:54:25. > :54:33.deliverance. You say it is loving, but I can give a really good
:54:33. > :54:42.example. A man share to a story -- a man shared his story on my
:54:42. > :54:46.website. This man is gay. The experience cost him a severe amount
:54:46. > :54:52.of psychological trauma. He received treatment in his life, and
:54:52. > :55:00.it has hurt other people. I want to introduce another guest, because
:55:00. > :55:10.this is not exclusive to Christianity. You're from the Hindu
:55:10. > :55:12.
:55:12. > :55:17.academy. The Hindu tradition does not recognise this. We do not
:55:17. > :55:21.recognise the devil. This exercise is dangerous because you are
:55:21. > :55:28.preying on vulnerable people in the name of religion, so we're very
:55:28. > :55:33.coshes and apprehensive about the whole issue. The Hindu philosophy
:55:33. > :55:38.does not accept a devil interfering with humanity.
:55:38. > :55:43.Exorcism is not forced upon you. You do not go to someone's house
:55:43. > :55:49.unless you have legal authority to do so. In order for that to happen,
:55:49. > :55:53.the person who needs deliverance has to ask for it. If you go to a
:55:53. > :55:57.doctor and say that you have the symptoms, they will sit down and
:55:57. > :56:05.diagnose why you're getting the headaches before you get the right
:56:06. > :56:13.medication. We never force anyone. One last word from my guest.
:56:13. > :56:18.This is very unfortunate. The Hindu metaphysics recognises that one
:56:18. > :56:23.individual can influence another, like hypnosis. I am afraid we are
:56:23. > :56:30.out of time on that debate. Still so much to talk about. Thank you
:56:30. > :56:36.for your time. If you have a view on that, please go to our website.
:56:36. > :56:39.We have to end it there because the text opinion poll vote using. We
:56:39. > :56:49.ask is early release from jail justified and here is what you told
:56:49. > :56:55.
:56:55. > :57:02.92 % said that early release from jail is not justified. Francis, U
:57:02. > :57:09.18 % of the argument. I will shake hands with every single one of them.
:57:09. > :57:16.It shows that the legal system has a lot of work to do. Betty King,
:57:16. > :57:23.have you thought about this this morning? I agree completely with
:57:23. > :57:27.the Reverend George Hargreaves. Victims need time to heal. In this
:57:27. > :57:34.circumstance, people who have chosen to do evil up have the
:57:34. > :57:44.chance to get out. Releasing people early, like Milly Dowler's family,
:57:44. > :57:44.
:57:44. > :57:49.for instance, it just causes pain for the victim's family. Yes, we do
:57:49. > :57:55.not gloat, we just thank God that there is common sense out there.
:57:55. > :57:59.You do the crime, you do the time. Thank you to all of my guess who
:57:59. > :58:04.have taken part in the programme, Betty King, Simon Warr, Reverend
:58:04. > :58:09.George Hargreaves, and Francis Beckett. Please do not use the