:00:11. > :00:15.Are this week's of rioters really so marginalised and disconnected?
:00:15. > :00:25.They join gangs, social media, and they joined together to looked JD
:00:25. > :00:39.
:00:39. > :00:42.Sports. Should we make them joined Good morning. Welcome to a Sunday
:00:42. > :00:47.Morning Live special. As a calm of sorts descends on a week of
:00:47. > :00:51.national disgrace, is their real value in asking if national service
:00:51. > :00:55.is an answer? When 16,000 police showed up on the
:00:55. > :01:00.streets of London, the rioters stayed out of it. Should we ask our
:01:00. > :01:03.police force to show more force? And they did not once at
:01:03. > :01:08.Waterstone's, they went for trainers, mobiles, flat screen
:01:08. > :01:11.tellies. Should we. A collective finger at consumer greed?
:01:11. > :01:17.My guests this week all have shades of serious disorder in their past.
:01:17. > :01:21.Terry Christian got his first TV break warning that politician riots
:01:21. > :01:24.were on the way in 1981. He has since -- since worked with youth
:01:24. > :01:26.groups on TV and on the streets was a Sheldon Thomas was once a gang
:01:27. > :01:29.leader. These days, he helps kids in London
:01:29. > :01:32.escape gangs. And conservative author Douglas
:01:32. > :01:36.Murray was once banned from speaking at the LSE for fear that
:01:36. > :01:41.he would provoke a riot. We would like to know what you
:01:42. > :01:51.think about the riots. Were you a victim or a participant? Call now
:01:52. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :02:04.The events this week showed that parents, schools and even the
:02:04. > :02:12.courts are struggling to control some of our kids. Is it time to let
:02:12. > :02:16.the army have a go and bring back National Service? Some blamed this
:02:16. > :02:22.week's riots on the breakdown of the family. They are feral rats.
:02:22. > :02:26.What are those parents doing? ..Where parents have failed to
:02:26. > :02:31.teach kids about values and boundaries, the gangs have
:02:31. > :02:34.sometimes stepped in. They act as a surrogate family, setting
:02:34. > :02:39.boundaries and rules, telling members who they should respect,
:02:39. > :02:43.what they should wear and where they can go, giving them a sense of
:02:43. > :02:50.belonging. But if we do not want the gangs to bring up our kids,
:02:50. > :02:58.perhaps the army could. Could the army build in how young a sense of
:02:58. > :03:01.pride, self-respect, identity and community? Would national service,
:03:01. > :03:09.a compulsory period in the military forces, provide an alternative to
:03:09. > :03:14.the gangs? We could follow the example of countries like Israel or
:03:14. > :03:20.Greece, who have national service. But it has not prevented the youth
:03:20. > :03:25.of Greece from rioting. And there would be huge costs involved in
:03:25. > :03:30.calling up, feeding, housing and training each generation. The riots
:03:30. > :03:35.have revealed a country split apart. Would a shared experience of
:03:35. > :03:39.service to the nation he will that rift?
:03:39. > :03:42.Terry, is it tempting to think it might be a solution? National
:03:42. > :03:50.Service? I am not sure how it squares with the fact that there
:03:50. > :04:00.are record numbers of ex-servicemen in prison at the moment, but why
:04:00. > :04:07.
:04:07. > :04:14.let the facts get in a way of a We will bring you the result of the
:04:14. > :04:18.vote at the end of the programme. There are already record numbers of
:04:18. > :04:22.ex-servicemen in prison at the moment. So if you make kids do
:04:22. > :04:26.national service for a year or two years, and then you take them out
:04:26. > :04:32.of the army and put them back on to an estate with high unemployment,
:04:32. > :04:35.it will not necessarily give them a job. And then perhaps you will have
:04:35. > :04:39.a better trained kind of gangster on the street. Does that undermine
:04:39. > :04:42.the argument for, Douglas? The for the last election, David Cameron
:04:42. > :04:47.talked about a form of national service which would not be entirely
:04:47. > :04:49.to do with military training. I would be in favour of something
:04:49. > :04:54.which the six months or a year encouraged young people to
:04:54. > :04:59.understand that society they live in will only get better if they
:04:59. > :05:06.take a part in it. If we can instil that somehow by an experience which
:05:06. > :05:09.would not have to be military, it could be all sorts of volunteering
:05:09. > :05:14.things, working in the charitable sector, working with other youth
:05:14. > :05:19.groups. If you could set something up that instilled from an early age
:05:19. > :05:23.the idea that society is there as, and it is in their care and they
:05:23. > :05:28.have to take part in it. Like getting them a real job that pays
:05:28. > :05:35.properly. But there aren't any. Sheldon, apologies for the sound
:05:35. > :05:40.issue we just had. Sheldon, you used to be a member of gangs. You
:05:40. > :05:44.are now helping kids come out of gangs. What do these young people
:05:44. > :05:49.get from gangs, and could that be replicated in a positive way by
:05:49. > :05:52.sending them for some sort of service? I do not agree with
:05:53. > :05:56.national service. If anybody needs national service, it is the
:05:56. > :06:02.politicians, because they are out of control. Some of the things they
:06:02. > :06:06.are saying, they are clearly clueless and not understanding what
:06:06. > :06:13.is happening with young people and the underclass that they are
:06:13. > :06:18.causing. To answer your question, families is where you get a sense
:06:18. > :06:22.of identity. Families is way you get a sense of belonging. I do not
:06:22. > :06:28.see how national service can replace family structure. But could
:06:28. > :06:33.it replace gang structure? I do not think so. The only thing that can
:06:33. > :06:37.replace gang culture his family structure. We need to focus on that.
:06:37. > :06:44.All these knee-jerk reactions are ludicrous. We need to focus on the
:06:44. > :06:47.real problems, which are broken families. We need to focus on that.
:06:47. > :06:51.If we start doing these knee-jerk reactions about bringing back
:06:51. > :06:56.National Service or introducing it, these politicians are proving that
:06:56. > :07:00.they are not worthy to be in positions of power. It is your
:07:00. > :07:06.black cab driver's solution to the world, bring back National Service.
:07:06. > :07:11.I always distrust anybody that comes up with what I call these Pot
:07:12. > :07:16.Noodle, instant solutions. Just add hot water and stir a bit. You hear
:07:16. > :07:20.a lot of this. With the riots this week, you are talking about
:07:20. > :07:25.National Service now. I read all these commentators in the Guardian
:07:25. > :07:30.and the Times and the Telegraph, and I feel depressed. It is like
:07:30. > :07:37.they have their world view, they shoehorn events in to fit their
:07:37. > :07:40.world-view. Society is becoming too liberal, that is why they are all
:07:40. > :07:46.rioting(!) Then why can't the streets of Amsterdam full of Dutch
:07:46. > :07:50.writers? Douglas? I am not answering for the new rich people
:07:50. > :07:56.Terry is criticising, but no one is saying that national service would
:07:56. > :08:04.replace family. The problem is that we have across our society a whole
:08:04. > :08:08.set of problems:. Which are underpinned by families. One of the
:08:08. > :08:14.fundamental things is absolutely the breakdown of the family. But
:08:14. > :08:17.you cannot wish that to happen, you have to assist it and you have to
:08:17. > :08:24.assist people to do part of a community and a nation. Major
:08:24. > :08:28.General Tim Cross worked on reconstruction in Iraq. What would
:08:28. > :08:32.be the value for these young people who may have come from broken homes,
:08:32. > :08:42.to then be taken out of those homes and given compulsory national
:08:42. > :08:45.
:08:45. > :08:51.service? Tim, I knew there? I am here. Good morning. Sorry, we seem
:08:51. > :08:57.to have gremlins on the line. But we can hear you now. To begin with,
:08:57. > :09:00.I suspect the reality is that the practical implications and the lack
:09:00. > :09:03.of political will mean that bringing back National Service as
:09:03. > :09:08.it was will not happen. But why do so many people seem to think we
:09:08. > :09:12.need to bring it back? That is the real question. The military, like
:09:12. > :09:16.any other organisation, is made up of flawed human beings. We do not
:09:16. > :09:21.get it all right. There are a couple of issues. Firstly, we have
:09:21. > :09:25.a lot of positive role models in the military. And we have leaders
:09:25. > :09:30.of a genuine character and courage, not just physical courage, but
:09:30. > :09:36.moral courage. So unlike many organisations, the military are not
:09:36. > :09:41.afraid to talk about and then put into practice things like selfless
:09:41. > :09:45.commitment, loyalty, integrity, sense of duty, trust and respect.
:09:45. > :09:48.The military is a place where we have rights, but we also have
:09:48. > :09:52.responsibilities, and we teach it to people so that when they go out
:09:52. > :09:56.on patrol in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, knowing that there is
:09:56. > :10:00.a chance they will be injured or killed, it is because they sense in
:10:00. > :10:07.the military a strong sense of identity and purpose, and they feel
:10:07. > :10:10.part of what we call the regimental family. Sheldon? Those are the
:10:10. > :10:13.things that organisations on the frontline teacher. We have
:10:13. > :10:18.organisations in places like Hackney and Newham that teach
:10:18. > :10:22.exactly what he is talking about, but are completely underfunded. How
:10:22. > :10:28.can you switch to an argument from legs do National Service as some
:10:28. > :10:34.sort of knee-jerk reaction, and not focus on this Big Society thing
:10:34. > :10:36.that David Cameron was painting? The minute you get a chance to
:10:36. > :10:40.reinvest in the frontline organisations that teach identity,
:10:40. > :10:43.that each had to deal with empowerment, that each have to
:10:43. > :10:47.bring a young person from that feeling of helplessness into one of
:10:47. > :10:51.hope, and now you want to say, we are not going to invest in those
:10:51. > :10:55.organisations, we should just bring back National Service? Implication
:10:55. > :11:01.is that it is all young people in those areas. I grew up on a council
:11:01. > :11:06.estate. OK, it was a different era, with less pressure and there were
:11:06. > :11:10.some options to get out of it. There was social mobility. But the
:11:10. > :11:16.majority them were appalled innocent bystanders to these riots.
:11:16. > :11:19.Tim, Terry raised a point earlier, which was that firstly, people can
:11:19. > :11:25.have problems even while they are in the army. And secondly, that
:11:25. > :11:29.when people come out of military service, there are well-documented
:11:29. > :11:33.accounts of people struggling to readjust. Record numbers of ex-
:11:33. > :11:37.servicemen are in prison. So you may have a situation where you have
:11:37. > :11:42.these young people, you train them up in the army, and then let them
:11:42. > :11:49.loose on the streets. Would that be better? I do not know if they're
:11:49. > :11:58.actually record numbers. This is from the Guardian in 2008. Allow me
:11:58. > :12:08.to make my point. You asked me where it came from. Let me reply to
:12:08. > :12:14.
:12:15. > :12:18.the question. I started by Save the military organisation is made up of
:12:18. > :12:21.flawed human beings and it would not be right to suggest that we do
:12:21. > :12:26.not have problems in the military. But it is in the context of the
:12:26. > :12:32.regimental system. We have our problems, but the regimental family
:12:32. > :12:36.are there to deal with it and to try to bring it together. When
:12:36. > :12:38.people leave, undoubtedly we have people in trouble. We will have a
:12:38. > :12:43.lot of young people coming out of the military over the next few
:12:43. > :12:47.years who will end up with post- traumatic stress syndrome and those
:12:47. > :12:52.sorts of issues. They will end up in trouble. But that does not
:12:52. > :12:56.detract from the fact that the military structure and what it does
:12:56. > :13:00.is a place that people look and then say yes, we could do with more
:13:00. > :13:03.of this. I agree with your panel and I have no problem in suggesting
:13:03. > :13:07.that we should invest in this sort of thing in different areas of our
:13:07. > :13:12.system, the education system, the clubs and the other places your
:13:12. > :13:16.panel members have been talking about. Lynsey Germanies from the
:13:16. > :13:20.stop the war coalition. Those values that Major General Tim Cross
:13:20. > :13:25.mentions - loyalty, commitment, a sense of identity and positive male
:13:25. > :13:31.role models, those are hard to argue with, aren't they? Well, they
:13:31. > :13:37.do come from all sorts of different institutions in society. The role
:13:37. > :13:43.of the army, particularly in recent years, has been a violent roll, a
:13:44. > :13:47.role to do with killing. As Terry has pointed out, you have to go to
:13:47. > :13:54.some lengths to train people to be desensitised enough to do this kind
:13:54. > :14:00.of thing. And many of them face great problems, both within the
:14:00. > :14:07.army and when they leave the Army. Not just in terms of domestic
:14:07. > :14:14.violence and housing problems and hopelessness and alcoholism. It is
:14:14. > :14:19.wrong to suggest that... SOUND PROBLEMS.
:14:19. > :14:25.A Lynsey, I would interrupt you because we are having sound
:14:25. > :14:29.problems with the line. Let me stress again that the ideas of
:14:29. > :14:33.national service that have been suggested by politicians at the
:14:33. > :14:37.moment are not a one-size-fits-all military solution. But it might be
:14:37. > :14:41.worth thinking of a more nuanced approach to the system, whereby
:14:41. > :14:46.there are types of national service which have nothing to do with the
:14:46. > :14:50.military. But they may well suit and help train up young people and
:14:50. > :14:55.not only helped them to have a sense of belonging, but also help
:14:55. > :14:58.them into the career they would go into. It is not just to bring
:14:58. > :15:03.people into marching. We are talking about the army. Let me
:15:03. > :15:07.bring some truth here. This is what the young people I work with C. I
:15:07. > :15:11.worked with gang members. They see billions of pounds being spent on
:15:11. > :15:14.wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya. And then they see the same
:15:14. > :15:18.prime minister coming back here and telling everybody there are no jobs,
:15:18. > :15:22.there will be massive redundancies, no apprenticeships. So you are
:15:22. > :15:28.saying, let's give more investment to the army to go and deal with a
:15:28. > :15:33.problem that should be invested locally to organisations. I am not
:15:33. > :15:37.going to just listened to us talk about the army as if to say that
:15:37. > :15:42.that is some sort of answer, when what is the answer is investment
:15:42. > :15:52.into local communities, organisations that are struggling
:15:52. > :15:55.because �5 billion are being spent People on the streets of London
:15:55. > :16:00.don't care about Iraq and Afghanistan. They care about their
:16:00. > :16:05.personal life. They care about the fact they haven't got a job.
:16:05. > :16:11.can't be either. No! It might not be allowing genocide in Libya or
:16:11. > :16:14.you getting more food. For you to suggest it is OK to spend �5
:16:14. > :16:18.billion of our money in this country on a war that none of us
:16:18. > :16:22.have asked for. There are plenty of people who don't think any
:16:22. > :16:32.government should be allowed to commit genocide. When you say
:16:32. > :16:33.
:16:33. > :16:43.genocide... Can I put those points... What about Rolando? --
:16:43. > :16:43.
:16:43. > :16:49.and Rwanda. You look at this from two sides. You did Israeli national
:16:49. > :16:52.service and you are a criminologist. Correct. What value could that
:16:52. > :16:58.National Service have been preventing crime? The first thing
:16:58. > :17:02.is it gives them something to do while they are at a vulnerable age.
:17:02. > :17:07.If you're 18 or 19 and it had something to do, instead of being
:17:08. > :17:12.on the streets, you can do national service. We spoke about the
:17:12. > :17:17.military, but there are all sorts of things you can do way you don't
:17:17. > :17:22.have to see combat. I understand the argument about Iraq and
:17:22. > :17:26.Afghanistan, but the issue is whether this sort of intervention
:17:26. > :17:30.will decrease crime and I think it could. It introduces the melting
:17:30. > :17:35.pot between different sections of society. Different people from
:17:35. > :17:39.different backgrounds come together and they do something for the
:17:39. > :17:44.common goal and it seems like a good idea that we have had positive
:17:44. > :17:52.experiences with this in a lot of places around the world. It can be
:17:52. > :17:58.technology, computers, police, hospitals, schools. They can tie up
:17:58. > :18:03.a national service to different benefits. Child tax credits. If you
:18:03. > :18:11.did a couple of years of military service or any other service, maybe
:18:11. > :18:17.you can get tuition paid for by the government. Thank you. A viewer has
:18:17. > :18:23.got in touch. Eric. You served in the Army? Do you think more people
:18:23. > :18:29.should? A no because I don't think the army should be used as a
:18:29. > :18:33.probation service. The army is a small, highly trained, technical
:18:33. > :18:39.streamlined a fighting force, it is not there to teach the sort of
:18:39. > :18:42.people we have seen it on our streets respect, manners and
:18:42. > :18:47.behaviour that they should have been taught from day one at home. I
:18:47. > :18:51.think it is quite wrong that the army should even be considered as a
:18:51. > :18:59.training ground for those sorts of people. Quite frankly, I don't
:18:59. > :19:09.think the government ought to do it anyway. The infrastructure... Money
:19:09. > :19:11.
:19:11. > :19:16.could be better spent... SOUND PROBLEMS.
:19:16. > :19:26.That is our text Paul today. Should national service be compulsory for
:19:26. > :19:32.
:19:32. > :19:42.all young people? If you think it You have around 20 minutes before
:19:42. > :19:43.
:19:43. > :19:48.The police get it in the neck when they are too tough on the streets
:19:48. > :19:53.and then we lambast them for next week for not being tough enough.
:19:53. > :19:56.This week David Cameron suggested plastic bullets, water cannon and
:19:56. > :20:02.back-up from the army. Have the seven days in August made up your
:20:02. > :20:09.mind? This is a public order warning. Will all members of the
:20:09. > :20:12.public pleas disburse now? As the law on our streets broke down,
:20:12. > :20:16.citizens were forced to defend themselves. If the Met is not here,
:20:16. > :20:22.tough luck, we will take the law into our own hands. Would they have
:20:22. > :20:27.had to have done this if the rioters had feared the police more?
:20:27. > :20:31.It took 16,000 police officers to calm the capital. Those numbers are
:20:31. > :20:35.not sustainable. David Cameron said this week the police were too timid
:20:35. > :20:40.in their response and they need the confidence to use more force.
:20:40. > :20:46.Whatever tactics the police feel they need to employ, they will have
:20:46. > :20:49.legal backing to do so. Nothing is off the table. In just one week,
:20:49. > :20:55.weapons associated with the troubles in Northern Ireland were
:20:55. > :20:59.being suggested for use on the streets of England. But some argue
:20:59. > :21:03.it was the use of force in the police shooting of Mark Duggan
:21:03. > :21:08.which triggered the violence in Tottenham. So would more police
:21:08. > :21:13.violence simply breed more public violence? There are already
:21:13. > :21:17.concerns over how much force was used in previous civil unrest and
:21:17. > :21:21.some say that criticism has made the police too wary of cracking
:21:21. > :21:31.down this time. Others say those out on the streets deserved all
:21:31. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:37.they got. And if you have a webcam, you can make your point to us.
:21:37. > :21:44.You can also join the conversation on Twitter.
:21:44. > :21:49.And now we welcome a vicar from Hackney, the Reverend Rose Hunt son.
:21:50. > :21:57.Good morning. -- Rose Hunt some. More proactive policing and perhaps
:21:57. > :22:01.more force have -- would they have shut things down earlier? I don't
:22:01. > :22:05.know about force. What I do know is that perhaps more police presence
:22:05. > :22:10.would have been helpful, but clearly as the police have set
:22:10. > :22:15.themselves, they did not have the numbers. I was in Hackney at the
:22:15. > :22:20.time when they were throwing things. There was a thin blue line of
:22:20. > :22:26.police officers and I was shattered to see the bricks and bottles being
:22:26. > :22:32.thrown at people, ordinary human beings. The police are not an alien
:22:32. > :22:38.force, they are people's husbands and wives and brothers and fathers.
:22:38. > :22:42.They needed reinforcement, they got reinforcement and restore calm.
:22:42. > :22:47.Douglas, it was flooding the streets with police, wasn't it,
:22:47. > :22:50.that brought this to an end? Absolutely. There have been some
:22:50. > :22:55.people who have gone way over the top of what they think should now
:22:55. > :22:58.happen. We are sitting in Belfast and Belfast knows well that if you
:22:58. > :23:04.start putting soldiers on the streets, things can escalate very
:23:04. > :23:09.fast and I think that is a bad idea. Ba there has been a terrible loss
:23:09. > :23:12.of public confidence in the police by the fact that a large number of
:23:12. > :23:16.members of the public have seen the police holding back, allowing not
:23:16. > :23:21.just criminality and looting, but also in some cases members of the
:23:21. > :23:24.public being attacked by those people. And the police seeming not
:23:24. > :23:27.to have taken the role they should have done to protect the public.
:23:27. > :23:31.There has been a huge loss of confidence in the police and it
:23:31. > :23:35.will take a lot of work from the plate -- police do get back that
:23:36. > :23:41.confidence. Terry, too timid? kind of agree with what Douglas has
:23:41. > :23:46.said. There is a feeling that the police force have been slightly
:23:46. > :23:50.emasculated, possibly because of prosecutions and Ian Thomson's
:23:50. > :23:56.death. He was a harmless man and all of the kettling that went on,
:23:56. > :24:00.killed by the police. -- Ian Tomlinson. Shorey there has to be a
:24:00. > :24:07.small parades -- place somewhere between harming an innocent man and
:24:07. > :24:12.causing his death and being spectators to what was acts of
:24:12. > :24:18.looting and criminality. We keep talking about young people. In
:24:18. > :24:23.Manchester, the majority of the people arrested from the looting
:24:23. > :24:28.were way into their twenties, 30s and 40s. There were hardened
:24:28. > :24:32.criminal gangs involved. There are different causes to each of these
:24:33. > :24:38.riots. The police were like spectators, they said they did not
:24:38. > :24:42.have enough minders, but they sat back and let it go on. -- numbers.
:24:42. > :24:45.I have been out in Manchester city centre and seen people getting
:24:45. > :24:50.beaten up, reported it to a policeman and they're not
:24:50. > :25:00.interested. Ian McDonald is a former assistant Chief Constable at
:25:00. > :25:04.Merseyside police. You dealt with the Toxteth riots. How much force
:25:04. > :25:09.is it possible to use in these situations? Of the police not
:25:09. > :25:14.confident about using the necessary force? The police have cleared
:25:14. > :25:21.guidelines on the levels of force they can use and it has to be
:25:21. > :25:24.proportionate. Once a riot is under way, nobody can police them
:25:24. > :25:34.perfectly. The police need the powers to stop these people from
:25:34. > :25:38.assembling. When you hear talk of rubber bullets, water cannon and
:25:38. > :25:45.possibly bringing in the army, do you think yes, that is necessary,
:25:45. > :25:48.or that is completely over the top? Yes and no. As far as rubber
:25:48. > :25:52.bullets and water cannon are concerned, our colleagues in
:25:52. > :25:56.Northern Ireland will advise us on that. As far as the army coming in,
:25:56. > :26:00.I have yet to see a situation in the last century where the army
:26:00. > :26:04.going into a situation of civil unrest has brought it to an end.
:26:04. > :26:09.Sir Michael Winner is chairman of the Police Memorial Trust. His
:26:09. > :26:13.there a danger, Michael Winner, that using more aggression can
:26:13. > :26:19.increase aggression? You can't increase it much more than what we
:26:19. > :26:25.have seen in the recent riots. Short of them stringing people up
:26:25. > :26:29.from lamp-posts, I don't see how it could increase. What the public,
:26:29. > :26:33.and I include myself, felt particularly in the first couple of
:26:33. > :26:41.days is that there didn't appear to be, and I am not blaming the police
:26:41. > :26:46.on this, enough to tempt to stop the rioting. -- attempt. You have
:26:46. > :26:51.to bring in whatever is necessary, the army, rubber bullets, water
:26:51. > :26:56.cannon, gas, I don't care what it is. Citizens should not be
:26:56. > :27:00.subjected to this. We always have this softly-softly approach, this
:27:00. > :27:05.is where it has got us. We have not really had a softly-softly approach
:27:05. > :27:10.in the past. In 1981 and what happened in Moss Side, the police
:27:10. > :27:16.went in particularly hard and lost a lot of support from that
:27:16. > :27:20.community. Some of the punishments handed out were unfair. I don't
:27:20. > :27:24.think there were enough police numbers. All of this idea of
:27:24. > :27:28.plastic bullets and water cannon, face the facts, you can't afford to
:27:28. > :27:37.put the police service... -- Cut the police service for top of
:27:37. > :27:44.course there should be more police. Where there -- where they have been
:27:44. > :27:47.restrained by his mentally by the knowledge that if they do anything
:27:47. > :27:52.that the politically correct brigade will be charging them with
:27:52. > :27:57.the breaching of Human Rights... is not a politically incorrect
:27:57. > :28:00.Brigade in the case of Ian Tomlinson. He was innocent. The
:28:00. > :28:04.police can get out of hand, but there has to be a small space
:28:05. > :28:08.somewhere between that and acting as a spectator. The police in
:28:08. > :28:12.Manchester said they were outnumbered by the rioters and that
:28:12. > :28:18.is why they did not going. They were clearly outnumbered initially.
:28:18. > :28:24.What I saw in Hackney, there were many more people rioting van there
:28:24. > :28:29.were police. Whether they were not expecting vast numbers together so
:28:29. > :28:35.quickly on the street, we are in New Times. It is unfair in that
:28:35. > :28:39.context to expect of the police officers to go into that Frank Cass
:28:39. > :28:43.and not only have themselves buttoned-up other people. There
:28:44. > :28:48.were probably even more spectators in Hackney than there were police.
:28:48. > :28:52.The question has to be asked, and we are asking police to put their
:28:52. > :29:02.lives on the line, and I am wondering why the community were
:29:02. > :29:05.
:29:05. > :29:10.watching what was going on. Becoming that thin blue line.
:29:10. > :29:13.were big criminal elements involved in these riots and the locals are
:29:13. > :29:18.scared of there, too. For years, as long as it has been confined to
:29:19. > :29:24.those areas, the police have turned a blind eye. I have never talked
:29:24. > :29:28.about David Cameron talking about how disgraceful it is. They are our
:29:28. > :29:32.children and people in the community. Later today, David
:29:32. > :29:36.Cameron, who has been in office a long time, is talking about zero
:29:36. > :29:41.tolerance and he is right. What we have had until now his total
:29:41. > :29:45.tolerance. We have tolerated every nonsense. The citizen has been
:29:45. > :29:49.brushed aside and I don't accept we shouldn't be tougher and rougher.
:29:49. > :29:55.No one is saying we should be tougher, but it has been allowed to
:29:55. > :30:00.go one. When it starts affecting London, when it is the Olympics,
:30:00. > :30:05.something must be done. We have had gangs with guns on the streets for
:30:05. > :30:09.years. Of course something should have been done then. Why wasn't it?
:30:09. > :30:14.Tolerance beyond belief. There clearly is a swinging back and
:30:14. > :30:19.forth from the police. We saw it at the G20 riots and the response to
:30:19. > :30:22.the policing there when the police failed to stop people storming
:30:22. > :30:27.public buildings in London, the anti- tuition fees protests last
:30:27. > :30:36.year. One quick thing because this has become a big political tool.
:30:36. > :30:41.This issue about the cuts in police numbers. Nobody wants to see fewer
:30:41. > :30:44.police on the streets. Labour have been behaving quite disgracefully
:30:44. > :30:48.in trying to make this political point this week. What the coalition
:30:48. > :30:52.cuts are trying to do is not to cut the numbers of police on the street,
:30:52. > :30:57.but to cut the number of people sitting at desks and writing
:30:57. > :31:00.reports. You can't get the convictions without the paperwork.
:31:00. > :31:04.You could have as many or more police on the street if you free
:31:04. > :31:14.them up from the paperwork. They can't get the convictions were that
:31:14. > :31:16.
:31:16. > :31:24.The courts are far too lenient. And Mrs Thatcher would have dealt with
:31:24. > :31:28.this in seconds. In places like inner cities, we also want a police
:31:28. > :31:33.force that is going to be respectful of the people that it is
:31:33. > :31:38.policing. Time and time again, I have mothers, parents, fathers who
:31:38. > :31:42.tell me that they are genuinely... And when I hear the young people
:31:42. > :31:46.say it, I sometimes hear it with a pinch of salt, but when I hear
:31:46. > :31:50.mothers who are in distress because the police even disrespect the
:31:50. > :31:54.parents themselves, standing there with their children, if the police
:31:54. > :32:03.disrespect the parents, then the parents almost lose their moral
:32:04. > :32:10.right to engage with their children. Michael, you do not live in one of
:32:10. > :32:14.those areas and have not ever done. There is a myth about the police
:32:14. > :32:18.being soft in these areas. If you do not live in those areas either?
:32:18. > :32:23.I grew up in one! I have a 19-year- old nephew who was pulled to the
:32:23. > :32:27.floor in a street in Preston by the police with a gun to his head. He
:32:27. > :32:31.has never committed any crime other than the fact that he is black.
:32:31. > :32:35.That kind of thing is going on out of your sight and out of my sight,
:32:35. > :32:42.but it happens more than you think. It is not soft policing in the way
:32:42. > :32:45.you think. Let's speak to a 19- year-old from Lewisham in London.
:32:45. > :32:53.Stephen, what is your experience of relations with police where you
:32:53. > :32:56.live? Hi, everyone. Growing up around this area, I have had my
:32:57. > :33:02.fair share of ups and downs with police officers. I am not try to
:33:02. > :33:08.say all of them are all bad, but my experience is, most of it has been
:33:08. > :33:14.bad from the police officers. I get stopped and searched so often. It
:33:14. > :33:20.gets to me. Why I am I always getting stopped and searched? Why
:33:20. > :33:24.is it always me? Let me give you an example of what happened one time
:33:25. > :33:29.when I was working. I went to the toilet next to the centre where I
:33:29. > :33:34.was working, and the police officer came out of his car and started
:33:34. > :33:37.questioning me. I answered all his questions. Another guy that works
:33:37. > :33:41.with me came over and said don't worry, he worked with me. And the
:33:41. > :33:45.police officer turned around and went to the guy. It is all right, I
:33:45. > :33:49.don't care about you, you can go away, I want to talk to him. And I
:33:49. > :33:53.was like, what do you mean? He just said I have worked for him and I
:33:53. > :34:00.have not done anything wrong. And he was still questioning me and
:34:00. > :34:06.saying, I am going to need you. That is goading. It was all stupid
:34:06. > :34:11.things that get me upset. My nephew has had it four or five times, and
:34:11. > :34:15.he did not even get an apology. He was shaking for days. If you knew
:34:16. > :34:20.that the police could used more force, and we have heard the phrase
:34:20. > :34:25."a rougher and tougher", how would that affect relations? It would not
:34:25. > :34:32.help the relationship at all. You need the police officers to be able
:34:32. > :34:35.to engage with the community, you know what I mean? If you can't do
:34:35. > :34:39.that, you can't break that stereotype of all police being bad.
:34:39. > :34:44.Douglas, if we want these young people to show compassion and love
:34:44. > :34:49.and respect and be peaceful, as Stephen is saying, shouldn't we
:34:49. > :34:56.treat them that way? There are two sides to this. Firstly, of course
:34:56. > :35:01.the police should not be goading or doing anything like that. But those
:35:01. > :35:06.mistakes, when they are made, can on occasion be remedied. The other
:35:06. > :35:11.side of this equation is this. We cannot let people off when they do
:35:11. > :35:15.do criminal acts from being subjected to a rigorous examination
:35:15. > :35:20.afterwards. Let me give an example. A lot of people get stopped and
:35:20. > :35:29.searched. The gentleman here is an example. I have been stopped and
:35:29. > :35:34.searched. It would never occur to me. Have you really been stopped
:35:34. > :35:40.and searched? At yes! Up and how have they gone about doing it? Is
:35:40. > :35:44.it useful to go into that? A yes. They stop you, they ask you what
:35:44. > :35:51.you are carrying and all that sort of thing. I do not like that, but
:35:51. > :35:55.my feeling is that if you are doing a job, you do it decently. I am
:35:55. > :36:00.inconvenienced, but if that is what is needed to keep the community
:36:00. > :36:04.safe, fine. It would never occur to me to store up resentment from that
:36:05. > :36:11.and two and up using it as an excuse to steal trainers. Some
:36:12. > :36:17.people have been doing that. If in a month, you are stopped half a
:36:17. > :36:21.dozen times or even 20 times, and young people in the streets tell us
:36:21. > :36:24.that they are constantly stopped. I am not against stop-and-search. I
:36:24. > :36:29.want guns to be taken off our streets and nice to be removed,
:36:29. > :36:33.because it means our young people will be alive. But it must be done
:36:33. > :36:37.properly. Richard Wright about police brutality. But you cannot
:36:37. > :36:42.deny that as people watched those riots, they wondered where police
:36:42. > :36:48.were not showing either more force or more confidence in using that
:36:48. > :36:53.force. Why do you think that is? Well, I think there was a complete
:36:53. > :36:59.breakdown in policing. That tends to happen when riots break out.
:36:59. > :37:03.Those are the conditions for riots breaking out. But let's not lose
:37:03. > :37:07.sight of what happened. The spark that triggered this was an example
:37:07. > :37:11.of bad policing in which a young man had his life taken away.
:37:11. > :37:17.Subsequently, there was a protest that was peaceful until a 16-year-
:37:17. > :37:22.old girl was beaten up by riot officers. I live in Enfield. That
:37:22. > :37:30.was one of the areas that was hit. In the afternoon in the build-up to
:37:30. > :37:34.the riots taking place, the police were around the area, telling shops
:37:34. > :37:40.to close down. There were dozens of riot police. There were apparently
:37:40. > :37:48.hundreds of arrests. So it is not the lack of preparation that caused
:37:48. > :37:52.the riots to take place. Underlying this is the real grievances. It is
:37:52. > :37:56.easy to reduce this to poverty or spending cuts, and these are
:37:56. > :38:03.important. But a much more cutting- edge issue is injustice. People
:38:03. > :38:08.talk about soft policing, but between 1998 and 2010, 333 people
:38:08. > :38:15.died in police custody. Not one officer was convicted of any of
:38:15. > :38:24.those deaths. That is why communities do not have confidence
:38:24. > :38:27.in the IPCC. Unfortunately, we are slightly losing your microphone. So
:38:27. > :38:33.we are going to switch to Stuart Davidson, who used to be a police
:38:33. > :38:37.officer in this country and left to work in Canada. Do you think there
:38:37. > :38:47.is a difference over there that English police could learn from
:38:47. > :38:47.
:38:47. > :38:50.the? I was not armed in the UK, and now I have a Taser, a pistol and an
:38:51. > :38:56.assault rifle. And I have the training to use them, and it makes
:38:56. > :39:00.a big difference when police in the streets. Why? Because bad people
:39:00. > :39:07.are scared of you. Do you think that is the problem in England,
:39:07. > :39:13.that there is not enough feel of the police? Well, I do not know. I
:39:14. > :39:19.was fighting with people every other week almost in England. Now,
:39:19. > :39:22.nobody fights with the police. Everyone does what you say. And
:39:22. > :39:27.people are more respectful of the police than in England. I do not
:39:27. > :39:33.know if that is because we carry guns or not. But generally, people
:39:33. > :39:39.wave at me with all their fingers and do as they are asked. It is a
:39:39. > :39:44.better society as well, more egalitarian. Gerry from Londonderry
:39:44. > :39:51.says that after a couple of hours of Wood in Londonderry, the plastic
:39:51. > :39:55.bullets come up. They have different rules. Another viewer
:39:55. > :40:01.says we drafted in more police from outside London, and then the riots
:40:01. > :40:05.stopped. David from Merseyside has e-mailed to say he was an officer
:40:05. > :40:10.present during the riots in Salford and was one of 12 officers and a
:40:10. > :40:15.attack by up to 300 rioters. He had bricks and bottles thrown at him
:40:15. > :40:25.and seven, including himself, were injured. He says, we stayed until
:40:25. > :40:25.
:40:25. > :40:28.the fire was put out. Manchester police were up against a
:40:28. > :40:34.hardcore criminal element in Salford. These are very complex
:40:34. > :40:39.issues. There is no one Pot Noodle solution that you add instant water,
:40:39. > :40:44.and this will work. It is a lot of different things. But will we get a
:40:44. > :40:47.report like in 1981? I doubt it. The question is, why is it
:40:48. > :40:53.happening in this country? And we will discuss that in a moment.
:40:53. > :40:58.Stay to come: our kids are going on the rampage to steal trainers and
:40:58. > :41:03.flat-screen TVs. In Chile, students are rioting for a better education.
:41:03. > :41:13.Should we be surprised? Is our obsession with material wealth to
:41:13. > :41:37.
:41:37. > :41:40.Above the din of the riots and the clamour of voices calling for
:41:40. > :41:45.retribution, there were three voice of that many people thought stood
:41:45. > :41:55.out this week. Perhaps the most effective in calming the tension
:41:55. > :42:25.
:42:25. > :42:30.was the father of one of the Up rose, you talked about why the
:42:30. > :42:34.community did not step up and speak out. That was what Pauline did.
:42:34. > :42:41.that was what she was saying. And there was something really in what
:42:41. > :42:47.she was saying. But underlying all of that, we live in a society where
:42:47. > :42:54.it is all celebrity. It is "get it today". Footballers, people doing
:42:54. > :42:58.their own thing, behaving badly. And society says it is OK. We live
:42:58. > :43:02.in a society where we tell our children when they are 14 years old
:43:02. > :43:07.that they can get condoms, birth control, and the parents do not
:43:07. > :43:12.need to be involved. Meanwhile, we have a parent here, Tariq Jay Hunt,
:43:12. > :43:19.who suffered the most grievous loss, and yet spoke out so eloquently and
:43:19. > :43:24.powerfully. He is the outstanding hero of this week. Such an
:43:24. > :43:28.extraordinarily moving... I don't know how he spoke so soon after the
:43:28. > :43:34.murder of his son. You could imagine that in that situation, the
:43:34. > :43:39.things someone might have said. Absolutely. Here you see a man with
:43:39. > :43:44.a moral courage and faith. Even at this terrible period in his life.
:43:44. > :43:49.He could have called for retribution. He could have ignited
:43:49. > :43:59.a most terrible war in his city, and he didn't. He said one needed
:43:59. > :43:59.
:43:59. > :44:03.saying. These are people losing their lives. What he did not say
:44:03. > :44:08.was, there would be no need for me to have been detected the shops,
:44:08. > :44:11.had there been enough police on the street. Meanwhile, the Malaysian
:44:11. > :44:16.student who people also a watch on YouTube, could easily have also
:44:16. > :44:21.said, what is going on here? I am leaving. But again, he said, I am
:44:21. > :44:27.staying. This is still a great place. And a Facebook page has been
:44:27. > :44:35.set up and people raised money for him. The irony is that students are
:44:35. > :44:39.getting mugged all the time. They are quite naive. But what happens
:44:39. > :44:45.to them gets ignored. More fuss is being made about it because we have
:44:45. > :44:50.had the riots this week. It is not so much that more fuss is being
:44:50. > :44:55.made. We all know the story of the Good Samaritan. Here we have a guy
:44:55. > :45:03.who was beaten up, blood all over. And people come, and instead of
:45:03. > :45:09.assisting him, they start stealing from him. That is what the fuss is.
:45:09. > :45:19.They are worried about London's PR. We were seeing a wicked thing done
:45:19. > :45:24.The fact that this happened and people showed compassion... They
:45:24. > :45:29.should publicise all those muggings. Douglas, though his voice has
:45:29. > :45:32.seemed to ring out loudly, do you think for many people what those
:45:32. > :45:40.three people said speaks much louder than what they are hearing
:45:40. > :45:44.from politicians? It is possible. We need all of these voices in the
:45:44. > :45:49.discussion, we need politicians to say some of it, sometimes you need
:45:49. > :45:53.politicians to speak out more bravely. But nobody will remember
:45:53. > :45:59.what the politicians said this week, they will remember those people.
:45:59. > :46:05.You have been voting this morning. We asked, should national service
:46:05. > :46:09.be compulsory for young people? The poll is closing now so pleased
:46:09. > :46:15.don't text any more. You could still be charged. We will bring you
:46:15. > :46:20.the result at the end of the programme.
:46:20. > :46:26.Let's dig further into the possible causes. The French riots about
:46:26. > :46:34.pensions, the Greeks riot about cuts, but the English lute Foot
:46:34. > :46:38.Locker for trainers. What does this say? Could it be a few delinquents
:46:38. > :46:43.or is our consumer greed having consequences?
:46:43. > :46:47.Rioting is nothing new, people have risen up over race, policing, the
:46:47. > :46:51.poll tax and globalisation. It is not unusual for the police for
:46:51. > :46:56.public property to be targeted. This time, some of the motivation
:46:56. > :47:00.appeared to be pure greed. Why are you going to miss an opportunity to
:47:00. > :47:05.get free stuff that is worth loads of money? On these people just
:47:05. > :47:08.violent criminal scum disregarding human life in the pursuit of mobile
:47:08. > :47:11.phones and trainers or were they just copying standards they had
:47:11. > :47:18.seen elsewhere? The nation's favourite pastime until recently
:47:18. > :47:22.was shopping and getting into debt to do it. And many of our role
:47:22. > :47:27.models of celebrities with lavish lifestyles and it goes right to the
:47:27. > :47:30.top. Recently, many bankers, politicians, press and police have
:47:31. > :47:36.seemed much more interested in money than morals and suffered very
:47:36. > :47:41.little for it. There can be no excuse for the destruction of lives
:47:41. > :47:47.and property we saw this week. But are they just a dark mirror on the
:47:47. > :47:52.actual values of our consumer society? Can the blame for the
:47:53. > :48:00.riots fall on our own greed? You can join in by webcam or make
:48:00. > :48:05.your point online or by phone. You already mentioned role models, what
:48:05. > :48:10.do you think? Materialistic role- models, of a partly to blame?
:48:10. > :48:17.of that is part leap in the equation. In our society we have a
:48:17. > :48:23.poverty of spirit. A moral vacuum. Anything goes. What we have seen in
:48:24. > :48:29.the rioting is a result of that. that because parents are not
:48:29. > :48:34.inculcating it or is it because society as a whole is telling young
:48:34. > :48:38.people they need to have the latest but not enabling them to have it?
:48:38. > :48:43.The message from society is you can have whatever you want. You have a
:48:43. > :48:47.right to have whatever you want and do whatever you want. Now that we
:48:47. > :48:52.have the right, society is saying call your children back. Which
:48:52. > :48:57.children? The same children you have taken away from us and taken
:48:57. > :49:02.away away responsibility as parents? There is a problem.
:49:02. > :49:05.Successive governments have a raised parental responsibility and
:49:05. > :49:13.given children rights. Now the children have risen up and that is
:49:13. > :49:18.what we see. Who were on them enters? Celebrities, footballers,
:49:18. > :49:23.people who sometimes don't have good moral values. The local
:49:23. > :49:28.gangster. In some areas. Douglas, of there mentors, perhaps some
:49:28. > :49:32.might say the bankers, who they might think were responsible for
:49:32. > :49:38.this financial meltdown but didn't seem to be punished. All the MPs
:49:38. > :49:43.who fiddled their expenses? We have to get away from this thing of
:49:43. > :49:46.taking blame from anyone. The people who did the looting and
:49:46. > :49:53.committed the acts of criminal or - - criminality, they are responsible
:49:53. > :49:59.for their actions for top of there underlying causes? Sure. We do live
:49:59. > :50:05.in the most extraordinarily debased society. All of the people shoved
:50:05. > :50:09.on to young people as role models are vacuous, empty, mainly lacking
:50:09. > :50:15.in any kind of achievement of the kind generation ago would have been
:50:15. > :50:19.thought of as an achievement. Young people notice this. You can see it
:50:19. > :50:24.in the behaviour of children on the streets. You can see it in what
:50:24. > :50:29.they aspire to. Will you tally up the kind of corruption... There is
:50:29. > :50:35.a rich seam of immorality throughout society. You have MPs
:50:35. > :50:41.travelling expenses, bankers who impoverished all of us paying
:50:41. > :50:49.themselves massive bonuses. You have got politicians intertwining
:50:49. > :50:53.with corrupt press proprietors and what seems to be corrupt policemen.
:50:53. > :50:59.They are unified by the same thing. They should all be punished,
:50:59. > :51:03.shouldn't they? Absolutely. They don't have a willingness to take
:51:03. > :51:07.responsibility. This is what is interesting. MPs did not take
:51:07. > :51:11.responsibility for their actions. You say you don't believe in
:51:11. > :51:17.different solutions for different cultures and all that. Let's get it
:51:17. > :51:21.down to David Cameron, that kid, he was looting and he stole a bottle
:51:21. > :51:29.of water, he has been sent down for six months. But David Cameron, when
:51:29. > :51:33.it comes to Andy Coulson, I believe in giving everybody a second chance.
:51:33. > :51:40.Let's fast-track them. You call yourself an anarchist, was this
:51:40. > :51:45.some kind of moral anarchy? I don't think the riots and the looting had
:51:45. > :51:51.anything to do with anarchy. As an anarchist, you can look at why this
:51:51. > :51:55.happened, but instead of everyone having what Terry Christian calls a
:51:55. > :52:01.Pot noodle solution, look at the bigger picture, which is years and
:52:01. > :52:07.years of this moral vacuum. Years of bankers running away with money,
:52:07. > :52:11.years of big companies getting away with �6 billion tax dodging. David
:52:11. > :52:16.Cameron is not doing anything about that. Somebody steals something
:52:16. > :52:21.from a shop and they get sent down, it is ridiculous. Craig is from the
:52:21. > :52:26.Institute of ideas. What do you think? Are people just dressing
:52:26. > :52:33.this up with some sort of political theory when it is criminality or is
:52:34. > :52:40.something deeper going wrong in society? Let's switch on your
:52:40. > :52:45.microphone and start you up all over again! Go ahead. Calling it
:52:45. > :52:50.criminality is stating the obvious. You are right to say there is
:52:50. > :52:55.definitely something wrong with the people who carried out these facts.
:52:55. > :52:59.They don't have any regard for people around them. They don't have
:52:59. > :53:06.any sense of community that up is he talking about bankers or rioters
:53:06. > :53:10.or both? Rioters, bankers, politicians and the kind of fated
:53:10. > :53:20.businessmen like Philip Green who managed to dodge paying �1 billion
:53:20. > :53:25.in tax. Terry! Tax-avoidance, not against the law. Craig? There is
:53:25. > :53:30.nothing... These people committed crimes, but to justify it by saying
:53:30. > :53:35.bankers do it as well. I am not justifying it. Let Craig have his
:53:35. > :53:40.say. He is putting words in my mouth. It is not an excuse to say
:53:40. > :53:49.just because somebody else is doing it. Terry, stop talking over Craig.
:53:49. > :53:53.As long as he doesn't put words in my mouth. You just said people
:53:53. > :53:58.refute these bankers. They are all dreadful and criminals, that is
:53:58. > :54:02.what I think. Terry, I will have to ask you to let Craig have his say.
:54:02. > :54:12.As long as he doesn't mention what I have said. Craig, please
:54:12. > :54:13.
:54:13. > :54:18.These people stole from the people around them, they had no sense of
:54:18. > :54:22.community, no sense of the people around them. They did not care. The
:54:22. > :54:25.reason for that is because they have been robbed of a sense of
:54:25. > :54:30.community by a government who continually interfered in their
:54:30. > :54:36.lives. It gives them no reason to trust other people, it gives them
:54:36. > :54:40.no reason to rely on people around them. It is no surprise that they
:54:40. > :54:48.might steal from those very people they live alongside, burn down
:54:48. > :54:54.their businesses and burn down people who are actually trying to
:54:54. > :54:59.get ahead. You talked about consumerism, the people who had
:54:59. > :55:05.these businesses that were burned down, they want nice shoes and nice
:55:05. > :55:08.TV's as well. Consumerism doesn't explain it at all. As important as
:55:08. > :55:13.focusing on the things that have been attacked, it is interesting,
:55:13. > :55:17.the things that haven't been attacked. This does tell us a lot
:55:17. > :55:23.about the objectives. Public buildings were not attacked. This
:55:23. > :55:28.was not a pre- revolutionary France situation. Things selling
:55:28. > :55:35.Borderline goods were not attacked. The first priority was luxury goods.
:55:35. > :55:40.It shows us that when criminals, some people jump in and take an
:55:40. > :55:45.opportunity and most of them took what they wanted. Katie was a
:55:45. > :55:52.witness in Oldham. You were involved in the clean-up. What do
:55:52. > :56:01.they take? I was involved in the clean-up, yes. A hi-fi store got
:56:01. > :56:04.trashed. There was a jeweller's that was absolutely ransacked.
:56:04. > :56:08.These are not things people need, these are things people want and
:56:09. > :56:13.there is a massive difference. things you could sell, they stole
:56:13. > :56:16.keyboards from a music shop. All of the things society says you have to
:56:16. > :56:22.have this if you want to be somebody. If you take a community
:56:22. > :56:29.like ours, we have based schools building fund that we asked
:56:29. > :56:32.families to contribute to. The children turn up at school wearing
:56:32. > :56:42.�100 trainers. But their parents can't afford to contribute to this
:56:42. > :56:48.fund. Patsy is from mothers against violence. What are your thoughts?
:56:48. > :56:54.think it is about everything. Everything I am hearing. For me,
:56:54. > :57:01.the most important thing is values. If you instil values in children,
:57:01. > :57:07.as they get older, they will try things out. I am seeing a bit of
:57:07. > :57:16.everything. I am hearing the young people's voice in all of this. They
:57:16. > :57:25.are saying... It is about things. They are valuing things. Things are
:57:25. > :57:30.more important than people. Thank you so much. We have to end it
:57:30. > :57:40.there. We asked, should national service be compulsory for all young
:57:40. > :57:43.
:57:43. > :57:48.74% said yes. National Service? Possible solution? No, families. We
:57:48. > :57:52.have to go back to the community. We have to go back to families and
:57:52. > :57:58.parents and fathers. We need to build the foundation of our
:57:58. > :58:04.community life. I will say this. Face. Douglas? What we have seen in
:58:04. > :58:08.the last week, and nation wondering what it is. When the Pope came here
:58:09. > :58:12.last year, he said something interesting, you have to ask
:58:13. > :58:17.yourself what it is you want to be. That question has come up this week
:58:17. > :58:24.and we are very unhappy with the answer. Let's leave it.
:58:24. > :58:28.Bullington club, national service. Thank you to my guests are today.