:00:02. > :00:12.Criminals, terrorists, even rioters - they've all found a handy shield
:00:12. > :00:29.
:00:30. > :00:34.from justice in the Human Rights Good morning, and welcome to Sunday
:00:34. > :00:38.Morning Live. The Human Rights Act is meant to
:00:38. > :00:42.protect the vulnerable from torture, oppression and injustice. But John
:00:42. > :00:49.Bird from the Big Issue knows a thing or two about the vulnerable.
:00:49. > :00:53.And he reckons we don't need it. For the 1998 European Human Rights
:00:53. > :00:56.Act has greatly distorted justice in Britain and has got to go.
:00:56. > :01:02.More women are unemployed today than at any time since Mrs Thatcher
:01:02. > :01:04.was in charge. And it could well get worse. So, should women park
:01:04. > :01:07.the struggle for equality, concentrate on being mums and let
:01:07. > :01:10.men bring home the bacon? Jedward on Big Brother, seven
:01:11. > :01:15.drunken dwarves in a house, the first wailing of the rounds of X
:01:15. > :01:19.Factor. Yes, "reality" is back on the box again. National guilty
:01:19. > :01:24.pleasure? Or national shame? We'll hear what Pineapple Dance Studios'
:01:24. > :01:28.Andrew Stone has to say on that one. My guests this week have all had
:01:28. > :01:31.brushes with the law. John Bird spent his early years in and out of
:01:31. > :01:33.prison before founding the Big Issue. And he's fronted a reality
:01:34. > :01:36.TV show. As a feminist writer, Julie
:01:36. > :01:42.Bindel's battled for women's rights in the courts for decades and
:01:42. > :01:45.reckons all women should try being Jon Gaunt's opinions may have
:01:45. > :01:49.blistered your late night radio ears over the years. But he wasn't
:01:50. > :01:53.slow to use the Human Rights Act when he lost his job. We'll hear if
:01:53. > :01:59.he's still so keen on it. And we want to hear what you think.
:01:59. > :02:09.Call in now to challenge our guests Call in now to challenge our guests
:02:09. > :02:17.
:02:17. > :02:21.The Human Rights Act enshrines our right to education, free elections,
:02:21. > :02:24.free speech, and a family life. Rights we'd all stand up for. But
:02:24. > :02:34.John Bird says the act also protects criminals ahead of the
:02:34. > :02:36.
:02:36. > :02:38.innocent, and should go. This is his Sunday stand. The 1998 European
:02:38. > :02:47.in Human Rights Act has greatly distorted justice in Britain and
:02:47. > :02:51.has got to go. Two weeks ago, the streets of Tottenham in north
:02:51. > :02:56.London erupted when a peaceful demonstration turned into criminal
:02:56. > :03:02.disorder. The police held back. Why? Largely because they were
:03:02. > :03:07.frightened of being seen as heavy handed. Every kind of life
:03:07. > :03:11.threatening that civil disorder cannot be placed with our
:03:11. > :03:16.protectors tied down, worried about over exaggerated human rights
:03:16. > :03:22.issues. Is it right to valued that human rights of a violent mugger
:03:22. > :03:28.over a victim, or let a prisoner way of the human rights flag so
:03:28. > :03:32.they don't have to go to court? No. The system is flawed. What person's
:03:32. > :03:39.humans rides are maintained at the expense of another us? -- human-
:03:39. > :03:46.rights. Justice is often their only for the rock under work, and not
:03:46. > :03:50.for the wrong doing -- there or the victim, and not the wrongdoer. We
:03:50. > :03:54.cannot allow this miscarriage of justice to continue for another day.
:03:55. > :04:00.We need justice there, as much for the victims as the perpetrators.
:04:00. > :04:04.Julie, is John right? Macro now. The reason we needed Human Rights
:04:04. > :04:09.Act is that the individual is protected against the state when
:04:09. > :04:14.the state misbehaves -- no. I can see why lots of people think this
:04:14. > :04:18.is an act only used by criminals. It is not. David Cameron, his knee-
:04:18. > :04:22.jerk reaction, that is because he is pandering to Daily Mail readers.
:04:22. > :04:24.The reason that most of the general public think that the Human Rights
:04:24. > :04:29.Act is a charter for rapists and murderers and all sorts of
:04:29. > :04:33.criminals is because the Daily Mile and other tabloids -- Daily Mail
:04:33. > :04:38.and other tabloids run stories that disproportionately reflect the way
:04:38. > :04:43.it is used. Many people in prison need to use this Act. Whether or
:04:43. > :04:46.not they have committed this crime, they have the right to do so.
:04:46. > :04:56.see John wants to get back in the Ahmad and Jon Gaunt, but before
:04:56. > :04:58.
:04:58. > :05:08.they do, that is the question for the text vote. Should we get rid of
:05:08. > :05:13.
:05:13. > :05:20.We'll show how you voted at the end of the programme. Jon Gaunt, you
:05:20. > :05:25.have used it. I am using it. Article 10 of the Human Rights Act.
:05:25. > :05:31.The bottom line, that Human Rights Act does get bad press, as Julie
:05:31. > :05:33.says, but it always gets mixed up with our involvement in the EU. We
:05:34. > :05:38.need British courts and British justice. Most people in this
:05:38. > :05:42.country want our sovereignty to come back to our country. If we
:05:42. > :05:46.untangle it from the EU, because as you said, it seems to be linked in
:05:46. > :05:51.some people's minds, but it is separate. Her it is Lydd, because
:05:51. > :05:55.you can't be a member of the key year and not beside it to the
:05:55. > :06:01.charter -- it is linked. What people want in this country is
:06:01. > :06:06.British laws for British people. had the Act introduced by British
:06:06. > :06:12.people. By Tony Blair, but we have not had a referendum. People do
:06:12. > :06:16.feel remote, they fill our law is dictated from outside. Mr Cameron
:06:16. > :06:23.is right, we do need a British Bill of Rights, alone Human Rights Act,
:06:23. > :06:27.so we would have more control. We cannot do that while remaining in
:06:28. > :06:34.the EU, so we should have a referendum on the EU and reframe
:06:34. > :06:37.bid for this country. Our freedom of expression, I use Article 10
:06:38. > :06:42.because I believe that my rights to free speech had been infringed and
:06:42. > :06:46.I am still using get now. You have to use whatever law is available to
:06:46. > :06:51.you. Do you not see the contradiction in opposing it and
:06:51. > :06:56.using it? We live in a democracy and though she said, and an elected
:06:56. > :07:01.government put us into this Human Rights Act to use this Human Rights
:07:01. > :07:06.Act -- as you said. But look at it this way, I don't care what anybody
:07:06. > :07:10.says, I was in the present system and over a period of time, they
:07:10. > :07:15.lost the plot over the perpetrator -- the prison system. They have
:07:15. > :07:23.lost the plot but the Rhondda up. So they tell everybody they are a
:07:23. > :07:29.victim of psychological, sociological stuff, and they
:07:29. > :07:33.absolutely turned a whole group of people into very astute people. My
:07:33. > :07:38.nephew in law, he is a cop back out on the streets, when he stops kids
:07:38. > :07:42.who have got drugs on them, money on them, they all know their human
:07:42. > :07:47.rights. They all know that you can't do this and you can't do that.
:07:47. > :07:54.I am going to make this point. I will tell you, it doesn't matter
:07:54. > :08:01.what the law you have got, it is the spirit of the law. And the
:08:01. > :08:07.interpretation of the human rights, over the last 10 years... You have
:08:07. > :08:11.spoken enough. Let it duly come back in. What we need to remember
:08:12. > :08:15.is it is a criminal offence for a copper to clip some Ulick -- young
:08:15. > :08:22.hooligan around the ear. It is an offence for a teacher to hit a
:08:22. > :08:25.pupil. So we already have enshrined in our domestic law. If the pupils
:08:25. > :08:28.are coming out with human rights language, it is because they have
:08:28. > :08:32.heard it on the TV or read it in the paper. It is no difference to
:08:32. > :08:35.the law we already have. What is different to the human rights
:08:35. > :08:40.legislation is that any individual can use it, what you are the
:08:40. > :08:43.perpetrator of a crime or a victim. Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta
:08:43. > :08:51.Jones used it for those photographs taken against their will, the same
:08:51. > :08:54.as you. But because it is in Europe, it seems to be too remote for us.
:08:54. > :08:59.It did was alone Bill of Rights, we would be in control that. In this
:08:59. > :09:03.country, too many people know their rights and not many people though
:09:03. > :09:06.their responsibilities. We need to take control. I am walking along
:09:07. > :09:14.the, I meet a guy who will never work again because he has been
:09:14. > :09:19.marred by somebody. And when he goes to court, there is a guy that
:09:19. > :09:24.will never and a crust, then in his early fifties, and when he goes to
:09:24. > :09:27.court... And what really appals him is they cannot defend the human
:09:28. > :09:32.rights are that the person who perpetrated this crime. Pilot light
:09:32. > :09:37.to bring in a human rights lawyer, let's put that to somebody it deals
:09:37. > :09:43.with this -- I would like to bring him. You have heard these stories,
:09:43. > :09:46.prisoners who claim it is a breach of their rights to come to court, a
:09:46. > :09:51.burglar let out early because it breached his right to family life
:09:51. > :09:54.have not to spend time with his children. The argument being that
:09:55. > :10:01.we prioritise the rights of the individuals, and it seems an
:10:01. > :10:06.injustice to the rest of society. Well, let's not forget that these
:10:06. > :10:09.are tabloid stories. A lot of these cases are not even brought to court.
:10:10. > :10:14.I think it is a complete nonsense to suggest we should scrap the
:10:14. > :10:20.Human Rights Act. It would be to this country's shame if we lost
:10:20. > :10:24.this clear and basic statement of our citizens's humans right --
:10:24. > :10:30.human-rights on the broad understanding of its relevance to
:10:30. > :10:34.our society. And senior judges in this country and even the Director
:10:34. > :10:39.of Public Prosecutions agreed that the Human Rights Act had been a
:10:39. > :10:42.very good thing for this country and it seems to be that it is only
:10:42. > :10:51.some Conservative politicians that one does rapid. In the real world,
:10:51. > :10:55.the place where politicians often find hard to locate, it is not hard
:10:55. > :11:00.to find the real code and responsibility. The other
:11:00. > :11:05.responsibility is to obey the law. Every law in the statute is about
:11:05. > :11:15.our responsibilities. We have so many laws... I don't think we
:11:15. > :11:20.
:11:20. > :11:27.need... Adam bbcbreakfast@bbc.co.uk That Adam is from the human rights
:11:27. > :11:33.block. Be blase it should be replaced by something more British.
:11:33. > :11:39.-- people are saying it should be replaced. Saying it is not British
:11:40. > :11:42.is ignoring the history of it. The history of the Human Rights Act, is
:11:42. > :11:48.that the convention was drafted most are by British lawyers, mainly
:11:48. > :11:52.by a British Conservative lawyer, and it was implemented by our
:11:52. > :11:59.Parliament. It is also based fundamentally on rights that go
:11:59. > :12:07.back to around Bill of Rights in 1689. So really, to say it is anti-
:12:07. > :12:11.British is taking a "we don't like Europe" line. Absolute rubbish.
:12:11. > :12:15.What I'm saying is that if you want to get it more acceptable to the
:12:15. > :12:20.British public, if it was a British act and all of the judgments were
:12:20. > :12:23.by British judges, it would be fine. What gets up people's noses that
:12:23. > :12:28.when the Human Rights Act is being there is -- used so prisoners can
:12:28. > :12:35.get boats. The overwhelming people of this country did not want that
:12:35. > :12:44.to happen -- get the vote. rights of prisoners to have a vote
:12:44. > :12:47.has been a voted on in the European Parliament. According to the Human
:12:47. > :12:51.Rights Act -- Human Rights Act, it has to be allowed. Can you see the
:12:51. > :12:55.tension? There is a tension, which is the point of the Human Rights
:12:55. > :13:00.Act. The point is that everybody has rights and they are meant to be
:13:00. > :13:05.enforced in a non-political, none emotional way. Prisoners are a good
:13:06. > :13:14.example of people that, because politicians don't have to rely on
:13:14. > :13:23.their boats, they don't have to enforce them. -- on their boating.
:13:23. > :13:29.Women didn't have the right to vote along time ago. Wouldn't you have
:13:29. > :13:32.had -- like to have had the right to vote when you were in prison?
:13:32. > :13:38.think that when you don't have a former prisoners, it is against
:13:38. > :13:42.human rights. We have a responsibility to reform. I don't
:13:42. > :13:45.care about judges, I don't care about these people, I don't care
:13:45. > :13:49.about the middle classes are talking to the under class, where
:13:49. > :13:54.most of the crime takes place this, and tell them what is good for them
:13:54. > :13:57.or not. What we want to do is the reform of people who get involved
:13:57. > :14:02.in crime and you can't do that when you are straddled by all of these
:14:02. > :14:07.human rights. As I said in my film, if that human rights was as good
:14:07. > :14:16.for the victim as it is for the perpetrator, and I don't read the
:14:16. > :14:22.tabloids cut that I am not a right- wing conservative... Julie is
:14:22. > :14:26.talking about the victims. What I would like to say no to any lawyers,
:14:26. > :14:30.any human rights lawyers watching this programme, start being braver
:14:30. > :14:36.and start using this act for the victims of crime. Particularly
:14:36. > :14:40.women and children. They really can apply the law in an appropriate way,
:14:40. > :14:43.and all we hear about, because actually the act has been used
:14:43. > :14:48.disproportionately for those accused of crimes, but anyone can
:14:48. > :14:51.be falsely accused and end up in prison, end up in a police cell,
:14:51. > :14:56.end up dying in a police cell, which is what is so important about
:14:56. > :15:05.this law. So a lawyer's, start using it bravely for the victims of
:15:06. > :15:10.You said you don't care about the criminals and the lawyers.
:15:10. > :15:16.saying I don't care about the judges. Let's talk to somebody who
:15:16. > :15:21.might care, Debbie. She has multiple sclerosis. You wanted to
:15:21. > :15:26.know if your husband would be prosecuted if you chose to commit
:15:26. > :15:36.suicide at some stage and he helped you. How did you use the Human
:15:36. > :15:41.
:15:41. > :15:47.Rights Act? We went to court... I have a right to understand the law
:15:47. > :15:55.and my right to understand what would happen to the people I love
:15:55. > :16:03.if I committed suicide. The thing is, the human rights law can be
:16:03. > :16:09.misused, it can be abused, it can be very one-sided Lee used, but
:16:09. > :16:16.without it we would be much -- a much poorer nation. I would not be
:16:16. > :16:23.alive today, and I love my life, if the human rights legislation, which
:16:23. > :16:28.our politicians are too scared of the electorate to deal with, if
:16:28. > :16:36.they had not said that I had a right to know what would happen in
:16:36. > :16:40.certain situations. We have to be very careful about not throwing the
:16:40. > :16:48.baby up with the bathwater. Why do you say you would not be alive
:16:48. > :16:52.today without it? I was in the middle... I did not believe we
:16:52. > :17:02.would necessarily win at court and I was losing the ability to control
:17:02. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:07.my hands myself. My MS was developing. That meant I would lose
:17:07. > :17:13.the ability to commit suicide myself and therefore have to ask
:17:14. > :17:19.somebody to help me. That meant they would face the possibility of
:17:19. > :17:22.prosecution. I needed to know what the situation was. I was halfway
:17:23. > :17:30.through arranging to go to Switzerland because I didn't know
:17:30. > :17:36.whether or not my husband would be prosecuted. Thank you so much.
:17:36. > :17:39.didn't get much of that argument. Can I return to what I think...
:17:39. > :17:44.Under the Human Rights Act, she managed to achieve clarity because
:17:44. > :17:47.of her right to a private and family life and it was agreed that
:17:47. > :17:51.she needed to have that clarity about what would happen if
:17:51. > :17:58.eventually her husband went with her to commit suicide. I would
:17:58. > :18:01.never dispute this Human Rights Act has a good side and a bad side.
:18:01. > :18:05.What I would dispute is the fact that if you talk to people in the
:18:05. > :18:12.street, and not all of them a tabloid readers, and I never read
:18:12. > :18:18.anything like that, there is a loss of a sense of justice because most
:18:18. > :18:23.crime is poor on poor. You have got poor on-board... That is not true.
:18:23. > :18:30.That is true. Sexual crime, domestic violence, child abuse,
:18:30. > :18:35.corporate crime. Can I finished the point? It is poor on poor crime.
:18:35. > :18:39.The perpetrator gets away with that and the victim gets left behind. I
:18:39. > :18:44.can give you countless examples over the past 10 years. I have met
:18:44. > :18:50.people who have suffered because of the way in which the courts have
:18:50. > :18:56.emphasise the human rights of the perpetrator and not the victim.
:18:56. > :19:00.Rebalancing. It is about getting justice. I have met countless
:19:00. > :19:06.people who have been badly served by the courts, badly served by the
:19:06. > :19:10.police, the CPS, the judiciary. That has nothing to do with the
:19:10. > :19:14.Human Rights Act. It is to do with a legal system not been perfect and
:19:14. > :19:18.that is why I am a feminist law campaigner. You have to reform the
:19:18. > :19:22.law, you have to push its boundaries to make it better. I
:19:22. > :19:26.agree that many victims of crime have been badly served, but many
:19:26. > :19:31.victims have been well served. human rights lawyer wanted to
:19:31. > :19:35.depict it as if it was tabloid newspapers and a few right wingers
:19:35. > :19:39.who want this, but actually when it comes to prisoners votes, the
:19:39. > :19:43.overwhelming majority in this country do not want prisoners to
:19:43. > :19:47.have votes. But because we are part of the Human Rights Act and the EU,
:19:47. > :19:51.they can impose VAT on us. That can't be right and that is widely
:19:51. > :19:57.want a referendum on the UK and then Mr Cameron can have his own
:19:57. > :20:01.Bill of Rights. We can have our own Human Rights Act and it can look at
:20:01. > :20:05.our particular circumstances. we are never going to get a Bill of
:20:05. > :20:12.Rights. As you pointed out earlier, we would have to withdraw from the
:20:12. > :20:19.EU. Why can't we do that? Which of the rights in the Human Rights Act
:20:19. > :20:27.would do not like? The right to liberty? The right to a fair trial?
:20:27. > :20:33.You have missed my point. That is about how courts interpret it.
:20:33. > :20:38.Isn't this just about interpreting it? Most people would agree with
:20:38. > :20:43.most points. It goes back to the Magna Carter, the idea of the
:20:43. > :20:48.judiciary and a jury and freedom of expression. Where people get angry
:20:48. > :20:52.is the fact that when our Parliament decide on some things,
:20:52. > :20:58.like prisoner votes, we can be overruled by the European Court.
:20:58. > :21:08.That is what we need to redress. will put that to the text Pole.
:21:08. > :21:10.
:21:10. > :21:14.am not against stopping torture! De deux it is a misinterpretation. A
:21:14. > :21:21.Sue says when we did get a slap from a teacher at school, we did
:21:21. > :21:25.not misbehave again. Absolutely. Don't we need that again? Somebody
:21:25. > :21:30.who described themselves as a beaten wife has got in touch. The
:21:30. > :21:36.police have failed to deliver me from intimidation, quoting my
:21:36. > :21:42.husband's human rights. That is what I hear all the time.
:21:42. > :21:47.criminal element know their human rights but forget... If you are a
:21:47. > :21:52.good citizen, you don't require any assistance to escape prosecution or
:21:52. > :21:56.deportation. A but many police officers don't actually understand
:21:56. > :22:02.the law. They don't know whether it is domestic law or human rights law.
:22:02. > :22:06.With all due respect to the police, if you send out a junior copper to
:22:06. > :22:09.of domestic violence incident and some don't take it seriously, they
:22:09. > :22:13.might use that human rights language. They mean it is the
:22:13. > :22:18.domestic law of this country which means there are certain
:22:18. > :22:24.circumstances where they can't arrest and prosecute. Lawyers tend
:22:24. > :22:27.to go for these cases like that idiot trying to get prisoners votes.
:22:27. > :22:33.That man who went down for manslaughter, that is the chap who
:22:33. > :22:37.now wants votes for prisoners. the lawyer trying to get Peter
:22:37. > :22:42.Sutcliffe out of prison, I absolutely agree, but that is not a
:22:42. > :22:47.fault of the human rights law, it is a fault in the application of it.
:22:47. > :22:51.How the spirit of the law. We could clearly devote a whole programme to
:22:51. > :22:56.discuss in this, but we have other things to discuss. The rights of
:22:56. > :23:06.our Parliament must, but Europe each and every time. Do you agree
:23:06. > :23:10.
:23:10. > :23:20.that we should get rid of the Human You have around 20 minutes before
:23:20. > :23:21.
:23:21. > :23:24.And something tells me this will be a lively programme!
:23:24. > :23:27.The ultimate, have-it-all female dream - a high-powered job in the
:23:27. > :23:30.boardroom and a nanny at home looking after the kids. But few
:23:30. > :23:32.women make it to the top and childcare costs are going through
:23:32. > :23:37.the roof. Should women re-think competing with men for scarce jobs
:23:37. > :23:39.and go back to being housewives? In a moment, Andrew Stone is joining
:23:39. > :23:49.us from Pineapple Dance Studios, who thinks this is a ridiculous
:23:49. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:54.Unemployment rates are increasing and the number of unemployed women
:23:54. > :24:00.is now at its highest since the Thatcher years. In tight financial
:24:00. > :24:04.times it appears employers prefer to employ men. Is this just another
:24:04. > :24:10.battle on the road to equality or time to reassess what is most
:24:10. > :24:13.important? Work or parenting? Some studies show that children do
:24:13. > :24:20.better emotionally and educationally if one parent stays
:24:20. > :24:24.at home. Childcare costs are rising rapidly and in an average family,
:24:24. > :24:29.one partner's wage goes on nursery costs. Would it make more sense for
:24:29. > :24:33.women to stay at home instead and look after the children? Polls have
:24:33. > :24:38.shown that more than 50% of people would prefer not to work if they
:24:38. > :24:42.have kids. And if women were to leave the workplace, there would be
:24:42. > :24:46.more place -- jobs for men who could support their families. But
:24:46. > :24:51.why should it be women who give up their careers? In this week's A-
:24:51. > :24:55.level results, girls again outperformed boys. Shouldn't
:24:55. > :24:58.society want the best and brightest to be in work? And women have been
:24:58. > :25:02.fighting for equal treatment at work for decades, why should they
:25:02. > :25:07.give up now just because of the recession? So should women take a
:25:07. > :25:14.back seat in difficult economic times or is this just a bad excuse
:25:14. > :25:19.for good old-fashioned sexism? You can make your point on the
:25:19. > :25:22.webcam or join the conversation on Twitter. It might be tempting for
:25:22. > :25:27.me to be at home with the Georgian this morning, but do you think that
:25:27. > :25:33.is where I should be? Yes, he is cooking the Sunday roast. Their
:25:33. > :25:37.father! A I'm pulling your leg. I believe we had a better society
:25:37. > :25:41.when women stayed at home and looked after the children. It could
:25:41. > :25:46.be a man. But one parent should be at home and I say it should be the
:25:46. > :25:50.woman because the woman is the nurturer. Julie? When you told me
:25:50. > :25:54.about this topic, I thought you were having a laugh. I thought I
:25:54. > :26:00.had woken up in a TARDIS and found myself back in the 1950s. Would we
:26:00. > :26:04.sit here and have a conversation about apartheid in South Africa and
:26:04. > :26:09.say, well, all these black people who we are used to looking after
:26:10. > :26:13.our children and cleaning our houses, driving buses, cleaning
:26:13. > :26:16.latrines, really they should not be given proper jobs because they are
:26:16. > :26:21.there to serve us and we had a better service -- society under
:26:21. > :26:27.apartheid? We would not be having this discussion. It might have been
:26:27. > :26:34.better for men... Families. Better for families. A what about all of
:26:34. > :26:38.those women who have no children, who have -- who don't live with a
:26:38. > :26:43.man. We should make sure those women are encouraged to go out to
:26:43. > :26:48.work. You have Cameron saying lazy, single, scrounging mothers who get
:26:48. > :26:54.blamed for everything because they stay at home. What is different
:26:54. > :27:00.from some Doris Day figure baking cookies? I can't invite Andrew
:27:00. > :27:06.Stone into the studio but not ask him to contribute. What is your
:27:06. > :27:13.upbringing? My mum was a foster parent. She worked very hard to
:27:13. > :27:17.take me to dance classes. Spain did she stay at home with you? She did.
:27:17. > :27:23.I'm a great believer in equilibrium. If you play the numbers games, if
:27:23. > :27:27.you took all the men up the weight place, it would be just women. They
:27:27. > :27:35.add a great emotional environment into the workplace. I think women
:27:35. > :27:38.can do a job just as strong as men. Of course they can. I won't
:27:38. > :27:43.subscribe to this Doris Day thing. The tax breaks in this country, and
:27:43. > :27:48.the whole tax system, has been steered up to getting women back
:27:48. > :27:53.into the workplace. I think that is bad for society. Then I should be
:27:53. > :27:56.tax breaks so she can stay at home. I do not believe women should be
:27:56. > :28:03.treated as second-class citizens when they do the most important job,
:28:03. > :28:09.which his mother had. Her that this old chestnut! It is a fair point.
:28:09. > :28:15.Parenting is parenting. Exactly. you are breast-feeding or bottle-
:28:15. > :28:18.feeding, it is an issue about your physical presence. You talked about
:28:18. > :28:24.apartheid and having black people looking after children, all that
:28:24. > :28:28.happens now is that in professional middle-class women's case,
:28:28. > :28:33.Europeans look after their children. People like us Susannah perhaps
:28:33. > :28:36.should be at home. Single mothers get blamed for everything, a lot of
:28:36. > :28:40.women choose not to live in the regular family unit who don't have
:28:40. > :28:45.children. What are you going to say? Should you say there are not
:28:45. > :28:49.enough jobs to go around? There is no way this will ever go backwards.
:28:49. > :28:53.Shall we talk about the good society by going back 50 years? Can
:28:53. > :28:56.you imagine how it looks to children to have Daddy coming in
:28:56. > :29:03.with his briefcase, providing the money, and money mopping up the
:29:03. > :29:13.sickle des? For such a we asked Michel? So it wasn't better when we
:29:13. > :29:13.
:29:13. > :29:20.Do Michelle Dixon is a stay at home mum. Are you a throwback to the
:29:20. > :29:27.1950s. Not at all! I am empowered because I have a choice in what I
:29:27. > :29:31.do. Both I chose to stay at home when we decided to have a family.
:29:31. > :29:41.We decided to have a mortgage we could afford on one wage so it gave
:29:41. > :29:48.
:29:48. > :29:52.Her is there that pressure on women to go back to work? There is
:29:52. > :29:55.pressure, but some women want to go back to work, and that is the
:29:55. > :30:02.important thing, that we all have a choice where possible to lie that
:30:02. > :30:09.be at home or to go at work if that is what you prefer to do. Stephen
:30:09. > :30:14.is off of the Women Racket, should women have the choice -- author.
:30:14. > :30:22.course. Within less -- tend to be less attached to the labour market,
:30:22. > :30:32.so they lose their jobs in a recession. There are two
:30:32. > :30:32.
:30:32. > :30:37.fundamental reasons for that, Women's preferences, our overall,
:30:37. > :30:43.about 10-15% of women prefer to work full-time and continuously
:30:43. > :30:49.like men. Over a quarter of them are a careerist -- only. By step
:30:49. > :30:52.them what to worker job, but only part time -- most of them. And
:30:52. > :30:58.there are fundamental differences between the sexes in motivation. A
:30:58. > :31:02.man without a job basically has no life, effectively. Women choose men
:31:02. > :31:10.with status. Been aware well, obviously that means a job and
:31:10. > :31:16.money. -- been aware world. There is some shaking off their head in
:31:16. > :31:19.the studio. -- shaking up the head. Men should be more encouraged to
:31:19. > :31:24.show their emotions and be part of the family. It should be a
:31:24. > :31:30.compromise between basically what you want individually and not being
:31:30. > :31:40.one way all the way. I think one of the reasons that so few women go
:31:40. > :31:43.
:31:43. > :31:49.back to work... It is utter nonsense to suggest that women
:31:49. > :31:53.would suggest to be at home if they can't afford it, for one thing.
:31:53. > :31:58.Everything is made difficult in terms of returning to the workplace
:31:58. > :32:01.for women. We have no state childcare to talk of. That is why
:32:01. > :32:06.we are talking about for middle- class women, nannies from Eastern
:32:06. > :32:09.Europe. No working-class women I know can afford it. All of the
:32:09. > :32:13.working class women I know cannot afford not to go back to work. It
:32:13. > :32:18.is a ridiculous idea that we are even asking the question, should
:32:18. > :32:24.women have the right to choose? We are not infants, we are not living
:32:24. > :32:28.under apartheid, this is an equal and open society. I asked you not
:32:28. > :32:36.to cast aspersions over their a professional life of people not
:32:36. > :32:39.here to defend themselves, but isn't there a valid life --. Making
:32:39. > :32:43.-- isn't there valid point that a lot of women would simply choose to
:32:43. > :32:48.be at home but feel they have the work, either under societal
:32:48. > :32:51.pressure or economic pressure? is ridiculous to suggest that one
:32:51. > :32:58.person can present the group of statistics that speaks for all
:32:58. > :33:04.women in the entire labour market. That is what... We have actually
:33:04. > :33:07.moved on about talking about whether women should. We have made
:33:07. > :33:11.it almost impossible for the majority of women, but they sure
:33:11. > :33:16.are talking about very privileged women, to go back to work and rely
:33:16. > :33:19.on their partner to do their heart of the childcare. The problem here
:33:19. > :33:24.as well is that we have also devalued motherhood, and we have
:33:24. > :33:30.got a situation... My wife is a very clever woman, she has got a
:33:30. > :33:34.first, she has an AMA, she is going back to teaching it, we were lucky
:33:34. > :33:42.that with the economic wherewithal, we made a decision and it wasn't
:33:42. > :33:46.the chaining her to a kitchen sink. -- wasn't me. The bottom line is
:33:46. > :33:50.that we have devalued motherhood in our society. We should create tax
:33:50. > :33:55.breaks to hand back the idea of a proper family, which I am afraid,
:33:55. > :33:59.is a man and a woman married, bringing up their children. In your
:33:59. > :34:02.world, but not for many people. was a better world when people
:34:02. > :34:07.thought like that and did the old fashioned thing there, got married
:34:07. > :34:12.before they had children. Remember that old-fashioned thing? The idea
:34:12. > :34:19.of bringing up your family and giving them as security. But speak
:34:19. > :34:24.to Judith... You don't want to have children. Let's get some more
:34:24. > :34:30.expert testimony. Judith, you have been employed full-time and raised
:34:30. > :34:33.your children at the same time. Do the kids lose out? Not at all. And
:34:33. > :34:37.in my children, I really feel they have benefited from the fact that I
:34:38. > :34:42.have always been a working mother. It is true that I was lucky to be
:34:42. > :34:52.able to combine motherhood with a full-time career, at that had left
:34:52. > :34:53.
:34:53. > :34:58.the Army. -- After. I became a head mistress. My children and I have
:34:58. > :35:02.fantastic discussions, debates, and arguments. I am not to stay at home
:35:02. > :35:12.mum, they have often had to do their own washing and they don't
:35:12. > :35:13.
:35:13. > :35:21.have people rushing around after them. It encourages independence
:35:21. > :35:26.from the children... A what does? Judit, when she went out to work. -
:35:26. > :35:32.- Judit. Were they at boarding school or were they in a day
:35:32. > :35:37.school? It was a boarding school. End of argument. That is how you
:35:37. > :35:42.get the balance, you send them to boarding school. Let her finish
:35:42. > :35:46.have point. This is somebody who put her children in boarding school
:35:46. > :35:50.and she is trying to tell me she was their mother at home with them.
:35:50. > :35:55.Let me speak, they didn't go to boarding school until they were 13,
:35:56. > :36:03.and that was bought their benefit. I thought they would get... At --
:36:03. > :36:08.that was four. When they were very small, I was there and I was never
:36:08. > :36:14.not in full-time employment. I have to interrupt, not because of want
:36:14. > :36:18.to stop you making a point, but it is a shame that the sound quality
:36:18. > :36:22.is so poor. They didn't go to boarding school until they were 13.
:36:22. > :36:26.Nobody is suggesting these children were at home on their own. What I'm
:36:26. > :36:30.trying to say that if we valued motherhood and got back to a
:36:30. > :36:34.situation where there were tax breaks, and they father could go
:36:34. > :36:40.out and work or whether they are stay at home that, at what I'm
:36:40. > :36:46.saying is, as a society, it was better when we had back. I don't
:36:46. > :36:53.recall that riots happening... want to watch at -- ask Andrew. You
:36:53. > :36:59.work with a lot of women. By have been around women all my life -- I
:36:59. > :37:08.have. It all of those working mothers were taken out of the work
:37:08. > :37:15.force, what kind of place would it be like -- if? Boring. Nobody is
:37:15. > :37:21.saying that. Like his couple when you have different things going on.
:37:21. > :37:27.-- life is colourful. How many children have you got, Andrew?
:37:27. > :37:33.There by choice. I am just asking the question. You haven't got a
:37:34. > :37:40.family. These are very small group of extremely privileged women who
:37:40. > :37:45.can afford to be at home. And in fact, often, I would rather not go
:37:45. > :37:50.up to work and take my dog out for a walk. Play with the cats. Is that
:37:50. > :37:56.all women do when they are at home, that is the meaning of! Because
:37:56. > :38:00.motherhood is so difficult if they do not have as much support from at
:38:00. > :38:03.the far that or they partner, they obviously want to stay at home
:38:03. > :38:07.because they are exhausted -- from the father. And it is difficult for
:38:07. > :38:12.them to get back into the workplace. Many women don't get so fissured
:38:12. > :38:20.maternity leave, and I am sorry that you don't have a working class
:38:20. > :38:24.woman on who tells her story about why she cannot go back to work.
:38:25. > :38:29.Coming up on Sunday morning Live, the riots are making us take a long
:38:29. > :38:34.hard look at our children, our parenting and our police. Should
:38:34. > :38:40.they also make us look at hour watching habits? Has reality TV
:38:40. > :38:45.damaged our morals? You can make your views known by phone, by e-
:38:45. > :38:49.your views known by phone, by e- mail or online. And keep the voting
:38:49. > :38:59.in the text poll. Should we get rid in the text poll. Should we get rid
:38:59. > :39:06.
:39:06. > :39:11.There is around five minutes before the poll closes.
:39:11. > :39:14.It is time to chew over some of the key moral moments of the week. It
:39:14. > :39:20.is the second anniversary of the freeing up the Lockerley it --
:39:20. > :39:23.Lockerbie bombing Abdelbaset al Megrahi, and apparently he is still
:39:23. > :39:29.alive because of the British drug that is not available to patients
:39:29. > :39:34.in the UK. To some people, it is irony upon irony in this case.
:39:34. > :39:38.issue for me, and the only issue, is that this illustrates how a rich
:39:38. > :39:44.people can get their hands on medicine at often poorer people
:39:44. > :39:48.cannot command that is something we really need to look at -- that. If
:39:48. > :39:52.there are medicines that can keep people alive, relieve pain and
:39:52. > :39:57.reduce discomfort, we should all have access to it. That worries me
:39:57. > :40:02.about the failing NHS system. That to me is the only issue. Everybody
:40:02. > :40:06.has a right to medical treatment. He should never have been released,
:40:06. > :40:10.this man murdered those people, let's make no mistake about that.
:40:10. > :40:12.He was affected be released by Gordon Brown and sent back to Libya,
:40:12. > :40:17.where I understand he wants political asylum in Scotland
:40:17. > :40:21.because he thinks he will be safer. I agree but it is that the issue.
:40:21. > :40:26.The bottom line is that the man should not have been released and
:40:26. > :40:29.it is an insult he is getting this treatment. Not that I want him to
:40:29. > :40:35.die in abject pain, but the simple bottom line is that Gordon Brown,
:40:35. > :40:41.it was a filthy, squalid deal put together by the Scottish Parliament
:40:41. > :40:45.and Gordon Brown with Gaddafi. The whole thing is sick beyond belief.
:40:45. > :40:50.Jon, you were talking earlier about going back to the good old days.
:40:50. > :40:56.Here is a couple who have renewed their wedding vows and it warned
:40:56. > :41:01.your heart. 60 years on, and they had a photograph where they had all
:41:01. > :41:04.of their original bridesmaids with them. It was a lovely story, it was
:41:04. > :41:08.a couple who got married 60 years ago and they got together with the
:41:08. > :41:11.bridesmaid and did their copycat photograph. It was in one of the
:41:11. > :41:16.newspapers in the week and they put them all in the same position. It
:41:16. > :41:19.was nice, in our fragmented society and we have been talking about the
:41:19. > :41:24.break-up of families, to see a relationship that has stood the
:41:24. > :41:28.test of time. 60 years there seems like such a challenge. Especially
:41:28. > :41:32.these days, when everybody seems to be splitting up. It is so nice to
:41:32. > :41:36.have a news story that is so positive and I wish there were few
:41:36. > :41:40.more of those. There is so much good out there and we love to see a
:41:40. > :41:45.bit of drama in the papers, we are a nation who loves gossip, but it
:41:45. > :41:51.is nice to see a bit of a lot going on. Good news doesn't sell, though.
:41:51. > :41:56.You would know! I did say it was a nice story but I don't want the
:41:56. > :42:05.papers for lathered. We have paid as full of criticisms of they
:42:05. > :42:07.politicians -- papers. Anna Hazare acid been on hunger strike in the
:42:08. > :42:12.protest at the corruption of the Indian government -- has been on
:42:12. > :42:16.hunger strike. He has been compared to Gandhi in some ways, become a
:42:16. > :42:20.bit of a national symbol. He is standing up for something he
:42:20. > :42:26.believes in, would you like it or not, the human essence of that is
:42:26. > :42:31.amazing. A conviction campaigner. We need heroes. We need to be
:42:31. > :42:36.inspired by those who are tenacious. I don't go big on martyrdom,
:42:36. > :42:41.although people have died for very noble cause this, and I hope he
:42:42. > :42:44.stays safe -- causes. He is a conviction politician whereas we
:42:44. > :42:50.have politicians fall of convictions after the expenses
:42:50. > :42:52.scandal! Bashful of. I would like to go back to having people like
:42:52. > :42:55.this on the left and the right in this country who actually believe
:42:56. > :43:00.in what they are doing, whereas I believe we have the kind of
:43:00. > :43:04.politics there which is not a bad believe, it is about power.
:43:05. > :43:08.what the newspaper editors say. Indian newspapers are not so
:43:08. > :43:12.optimistic. One of them says that business as usual is right around
:43:12. > :43:17.the corner. You have been voting in the text poll this morning. We have
:43:17. > :43:21.been asking if we should get rid of the Human Rights Act. Do not text
:43:21. > :43:28.again because the poll is now closing, we will bring you the
:43:28. > :43:31.result at the end of the programme. Some people have blamed the
:43:31. > :43:35.troubles of the past few weeks on our obsession with a vacuous
:43:35. > :43:39.celebrity culture, and there are plenty of reality shows feeding
:43:39. > :43:43.back fix, from The Only Way Is Essex to Celebrity Big Brother and
:43:43. > :43:47.the X-factor -- X Factor. Light entertainment or heavy damage to
:43:47. > :43:52.the moral health of the country? John Bird, who has fronted a
:43:52. > :43:57.reality TV show himself, will be back to debate that in a moment.
:43:58. > :44:01.After this, which contains flash photography.
:44:01. > :44:06.Millions of us watch reality TV and share the joy as people's hopes and
:44:06. > :44:13.dreams come true. But we also watched with morbid fascination as
:44:13. > :44:18.people are humiliated. Or you go on about his you, you, you. -- all.
:44:18. > :44:23.Those reality TV damaged our moral compass and help us revel in other
:44:23. > :44:27.people's stupidity and misery? won't talk about the morality, but
:44:27. > :44:32.I find it compulsive. We are now used to people becoming famous
:44:32. > :44:37.simply because they are run reality TV. Does this warp our notions of
:44:37. > :44:45.success, deterring young people from chasing proper careers? Or can
:44:45. > :44:50.light entertainment also bring Reality stars like Jade Goody can
:44:50. > :44:56.win our sympathy and highlight important causes. After her death,
:44:56. > :44:59.many more women remember to go for their smear tests. And the conflict
:44:59. > :45:03.Jade and shopper shirty had on big brother raised important questions
:45:04. > :45:09.about racism. When TV first became part of our lives, families
:45:09. > :45:13.gathered round it to hear news of war or the moon landings. Today
:45:13. > :45:19.reality TV also draws families and the nation together around the TV
:45:19. > :45:25.set. Invaluable common ground when our communities and families are so
:45:25. > :45:29.fragmented. Does reality TV make us last after fame and money that we
:45:29. > :45:33.can never possess or does it just provide a little bit of
:45:33. > :45:41.entertainment and light amidst the current gloom?
:45:41. > :45:46.John Bird is back. You can join in by webcam or by phone, e-mail or
:45:46. > :45:56.online. His reality TV a good thing? You fronted a reality TV
:45:56. > :45:59.
:45:59. > :46:03.show. I watched one version of by the celebrity get me out of here. I
:46:03. > :46:10.became absolutely obsessed with it. I made sure I was at home and that
:46:10. > :46:15.sort of thing. At the end of it, I felt quite soiled because I thought,
:46:15. > :46:22.God, if this can con me and can take over my life, what will it do
:46:22. > :46:26.for other people who may not have the full life I lead, rushing here
:46:26. > :46:31.and there? It seemed to me as though at the end of it, it was a
:46:31. > :46:36.bit like a terrible form of drugs supplied by the TV companies.
:46:36. > :46:44.do you think that about a reality TV show? People planned their lives
:46:44. > :46:49.around Downton Abbey. That is true. They can't have much of a life! For
:46:49. > :46:54.not speaking personally. People like looking through other people's
:46:54. > :46:59.windows, people like to know. We are incredibly nosy as a species.
:46:59. > :47:04.The very idea that we can see these people with their knickers down,
:47:04. > :47:10.metaphorically speaking, Carol Thatcher having a pony or whatever
:47:10. > :47:14.she was doing, we love it. I think it becomes obsessive. What I hate
:47:14. > :47:22.is that I want those people to get off their backsides and go out and
:47:22. > :47:27.change society. In a sense, it takes energy from people, it takes
:47:27. > :47:31.skills and abilities that could be used in society. That is a
:47:31. > :47:36.particular issue from reality TV and not just people sitting and
:47:36. > :47:40.watching hours of TV? I am only talking about really take --
:47:40. > :47:46.reality TV because I became an addict to a series. Your programmes
:47:46. > :47:55.are like drugs? If you are weak to that kind of thing, you can get
:47:55. > :47:57.sucked in. A That's me! Sorry! Pineapple Dance Studios, people
:47:57. > :48:04.can't stop watching because they can't wait to see the next thing
:48:04. > :48:11.that will happen. Technically, that wasn't a reality show, but there
:48:11. > :48:15.was a slight reality to it. wasn't my reality. Perhaps that is
:48:15. > :48:19.part of the fascination, it is an insight into a reality none of us
:48:19. > :48:24.could otherwise experience. It is full of surprises, you don't know
:48:24. > :48:28.what will happen next. It is not scripted. All of those things make
:48:28. > :48:32.it very, very addictive. But it is not hurting anyone, it is
:48:32. > :48:37.entertainment. Pump -- some people come out as stars and some don't.
:48:37. > :48:43.It is not hurting anyone? The only worry is that it means that kids
:48:43. > :48:47.up... I was talking Andrew and he was telling me he worked with Tina
:48:48. > :48:52.Turner. People in -- people like Tina Turner had to work in the
:48:52. > :48:56.club's four years and years to get where they have got to. A lot of
:48:56. > :49:00.kids think they can go on the X Factor and suddenly become a star.
:49:00. > :49:05.I do worry that it makes younger people think everything can be
:49:05. > :49:11.there without working hard. Shall we ask somebody who has been on X
:49:11. > :49:15.Factor? And the Abraham, former X- Factor contestant. -- Andy Abraham.
:49:15. > :49:18.You worked hard for a long time before you appeared on X Factor,
:49:18. > :49:25.but does it give the impression there is instant gratification to
:49:25. > :49:34.be had? Yes, there isn't an instant fame element to it. Especially when
:49:34. > :49:39.you win the show and you sell a million singles, it is impossible
:49:39. > :49:44.to keep that success going, do you Know What I Mean? The reality is
:49:44. > :49:50.after the show has finished, you have to keep that momentum going
:49:50. > :49:54.somehow. Do you think it can have an effect on those people who get
:49:54. > :50:03.promoted by the reality TV shows, it can have a negative effect on
:50:03. > :50:08.them? Of course it can. Thi I know of some contestants that have been
:50:09. > :50:14.traumatised by the whole episode. As much as I believe X-Factor is a
:50:14. > :50:22.good thing, especially for mature singers like myself, because the
:50:22. > :50:27.industry, the music industry is very ageist. Someone like myself,
:50:27. > :50:33.who was 40, it did me the world of good. People got to see my family
:50:33. > :50:38.and how I grew up and my story. That is interesting. People were
:50:38. > :50:43.fascinated by Andy's story. He would not have got that sort of
:50:43. > :50:46.promotion anywhere else. People learned a lot. This is one of the
:50:46. > :50:51.most annoying things about everything. Everything has a good
:50:51. > :50:56.side, but it also has a bad side. We have to work Celt, is there more
:50:56. > :50:59.of a bad side than a good side? -- work out. If you compare a lot of
:50:59. > :51:08.reality shows to things like Strictly Come Dancing, Strictly
:51:08. > :51:13.Come Dancing has led to, according to a mate of mine running a dance
:51:13. > :51:16.studio, a lot of people getting out and dancing. If this leads to
:51:16. > :51:21.people training their voices or learning other things, without
:51:21. > :51:26.getting delusional... Can I say something? I used to think things
:51:26. > :51:30.like X-Factor did not do that. My mate runs a free and easy on a
:51:30. > :51:35.Monday night and there is a whole crop of new kids coming up who are
:51:35. > :51:45.playing guitars and singing, solar acts, a lot of women as well. --
:51:45. > :51:46.
:51:46. > :51:52.solo acts. You have used this as an opportunity to promote a bar!
:51:52. > :51:56.kids are incredibly talented. Where have they come from? Maybe it is
:51:56. > :52:03.doing something. I'm sure that is mirrored all over the country.
:52:03. > :52:07.There is some good in it. If you're a sportsman, I used to box, and if
:52:07. > :52:11.you are in the gym all the time, boxing and boxing and boxing, you
:52:11. > :52:19.would not be causing grief on the streets, you would not be rubbing
:52:19. > :52:26.JD Sports. There is always an element to it. But the obsessional
:52:26. > :52:36.way people go one about the X Factor or the jungle. Ice a, get a
:52:36. > :52:41.
:52:41. > :52:46.life. -- I say, get a life. Anna is editor of Star magazine. Isn't
:52:46. > :52:56.abuse entertainment, humiliation, degradation as entertainment, the
:52:56. > :52:57.
:52:57. > :53:03.magazines and media are profiting from that. Hello? I disagree with
:53:03. > :53:07.that entirely. It is purely entertainment, people don't have to
:53:07. > :53:13.buy these magazines, they don't have to watch these shows. There is
:53:13. > :53:17.a choice. People should have a right to that choice. John said
:53:17. > :53:21.sometimes there is something addictive about these shows. The
:53:21. > :53:23.media rely on that because they want them to keep watching so they
:53:23. > :53:30.continually put things into the story lines which keep people
:53:30. > :53:33.hooked. Exactly. I accept these shows can be quite addictive. But
:53:33. > :53:39.it is purely entertainment and who are we to say what people should
:53:40. > :53:44.and should not watch? The danger is the editing. Especially with X
:53:44. > :53:48.Factor. They cast people and then there is a sob story and then Simon
:53:48. > :53:51.Cowell will beat them up. We see that a lot in other stars were you
:53:51. > :53:56.might go into the jungle thinking you are one thing, and the way they
:53:56. > :54:02.portray you, and Big Brother, that can be dangerous. Magazines fuel
:54:02. > :54:07.VAT. There is a danger. If it is a celebrity, who cares? You have to
:54:07. > :54:10.know what you're going into. If anybody does audition for those
:54:10. > :54:16.programmes, understand what you're going into. They can find a way of
:54:16. > :54:21.editing you because they want to put bums on seats. They did that to
:54:21. > :54:26.meet in my programme. We put some people on the streets. At the end
:54:26. > :54:31.of it I looked like an outraged, aggressive rather than a sweet,
:54:31. > :54:37.kind, nice person. It was so strange that they did take the
:54:37. > :54:42.grief parts and did not put the conciliatory part. Her Marjory is
:54:42. > :54:46.chief executive of the mental health charity. You have compared
:54:46. > :54:50.these programmes to Victorian freak shows, of a damaging? Yes, I do
:54:51. > :54:58.think they are damaging. Not only for the people who take part, but
:54:58. > :55:08.to the crowd who go a long, as they did in Victorian times, to laugh at
:55:08. > :55:10.
:55:10. > :55:15.the freaks. It Blunts and corrupt things and it also reminds me of
:55:15. > :55:19.those experiments we used to do as psychology students in the 60s and
:55:19. > :55:25.70s were you deprived people of sleep and sensory stimulation, you
:55:25. > :55:30.put them into a cage rather than a house, and see how much stress they
:55:30. > :55:35.can endure. At least in those experiments, although they are not
:55:35. > :55:42.forgivable, you tried to get information. Here, your soul end
:55:42. > :55:47.his financial greed and ratings. I got lost half way through that.
:55:48. > :55:50.It is like putting people in cages and see how they react. That is
:55:50. > :55:54.basically saying they are not intelligent enough to know what
:55:54. > :55:59.they're getting involved in. You have to know what you're getting
:55:59. > :56:03.involved in. We are not Rats, we are humans. Lisa is a former Big
:56:03. > :56:11.Brother contestant, did you know what you were getting involved in?
:56:11. > :56:16.I don't think I did. Maybe I was a bit vulnerable. However, it was
:56:16. > :56:20.supposed to be a row yet -- reality TV programme. I was told not to
:56:20. > :56:25.have an agent, and why we don't need an agent, because I thought it
:56:25. > :56:30.was about having fun and a psychological experience. What was
:56:30. > :56:37.the effect on you afterwards? was brutal. I got told I was
:56:37. > :56:43.Britain's most hated women, I had every part of my body torn apart.
:56:43. > :56:49.It litany having plastic surgery. I got the gender question from a
:56:49. > :56:54.silly throwaway comment. We have a couple of e-mails on this. Reality
:56:54. > :56:58.TV is escapism in a world of woe, nothing more, nothing less. Alex
:56:58. > :57:04.says, there is nothing real about reality TV, most are scripted and
:57:04. > :57:07.shows like the X Factor manipulate viewers into voting a certain way.
:57:07. > :57:13.Soaps are violent with characters that shout and hit an scheme
:57:13. > :57:17.against each other. We have a reality to get to
:57:17. > :57:27.ourselves, the result of the text poll. Should we get rid of the
:57:27. > :57:31.
:57:31. > :57:41.Human Rights Act? This is what you 89% said no. We should keep it.
:57:41. > :57:45.Well... That is up to them. As I said, I don't come from this from
:57:45. > :57:50.right wing angle. I'd just come at it as a person who was commissioned
:57:50. > :57:54.to work with the poor. I worked with the pork and I see the poor
:57:54. > :57:59.suffering because they don't get justice. -- a poor. I don't care
:57:59. > :58:05.about judges, I don't think judges know a lot about justice. It is
:58:05. > :58:09.about the spirit of the law. I do apologise. This is an embarrassment.
:58:09. > :58:14.Unfortunately because of a technical hitch, it will undermine
:58:14. > :58:19.what you just said, the poll result was the wrong way round. 89% of
:58:19. > :58:26.those who voted said yes, we should get rid of the Human Rights Act.