:00:08. > :00:12.The Government wants to make forced marriage a crime but will
:00:12. > :00:22.vulnerable girls report their own parents to police? His fear of
:00:22. > :00:37.
:00:37. > :00:41.being labelled racist stopped us Good morning and welcome to a new
:00:41. > :00:44.series of Sunday Morning Live. Up to 8000 women from the UK are
:00:44. > :00:49.forced into marriage every year. The Government wants to make it a
:00:49. > :00:56.criminal offence but will that make the problem worse? Ukrainian fans
:00:56. > :00:59.are accused of racist chanting. And accuse the government of human
:01:00. > :01:04.rights abuses. Is that a good enough reason to boycott Euro 2012
:01:04. > :01:07.or is it punishing players and fans? The rich are getting richer
:01:07. > :01:12.and the poor are getting poorer and the government is dominated by men
:01:12. > :01:19.in her school boys. Are they being demonised because they're posh?
:01:19. > :01:25.Made in Chelsea * France's Ole does not think so. What is important in
:01:25. > :01:28.my opinion is how someone uses the power., guests are known for
:01:28. > :01:34.standing their ground. Owen Jones is the author of How we demonise
:01:34. > :01:38.the working classes. He describes himself as a former trade union
:01:38. > :01:43.flunkey. As a personality and behaviour psychologist, Donna
:01:43. > :01:49.Dawson gives advice that people don't always want to hear. And be
:01:49. > :01:54.one of Britain's leading experts unforced marriage and his going to
:01:54. > :02:04.be shortlisted as a torch-bearer. What do you think? Challenge our
:02:04. > :02:06.
:02:06. > :02:13.guests on Skype, Twitter or over Texts will be charged at the
:02:13. > :02:16.standard rate. It is the most intimate betrayal. Girls as young
:02:16. > :02:21.as five forced to marry against their will, kidnapped, beaten and
:02:21. > :02:24.raped if they protest and by their own families. Mostly from Pakistan
:02:24. > :02:31.and South Asia. Why has it taken so long to criminalise forced
:02:31. > :02:36.marriage? Last year there were almost 5000 reports of forced
:02:36. > :02:39.marriages involving UK citizens, around one-third were under 18 but
:02:39. > :02:45.many cases go unreported so the true figure is likely to be far
:02:45. > :02:50.higher. I was 14 when I came home from school and when mother
:02:50. > :02:55.presented me with a photograph of the man I was promised to win I was
:02:55. > :02:58.eight years old. I said no, my family took it out of school when I
:02:58. > :03:02.was 15 and a half an hour was literally held a prisoner in my own
:03:02. > :03:06.home. At the moment, forced marriage itself isn't a crime.
:03:06. > :03:09.Victims can only seek a civil injunction to protect themselves
:03:09. > :03:14.but parents can be jailed for associated crimes like kidnap and
:03:14. > :03:18.violence. David Cameron now says it's time to change the law.
:03:18. > :03:23.should be a crime and for too long in this country we have thought,
:03:23. > :03:28.well, it is a cultural practice and we have to run with it. We do not.
:03:28. > :03:31.It is a crime. Campaigners hope the new law will help police, schools
:03:31. > :03:35.and social services confront families about forced marriage
:03:35. > :03:40.without the fear of being called racist and they say the victim
:03:40. > :03:43.could use a lot as a bargaining chip with their family. Critics say
:03:43. > :03:47.that poor families will take their children abroad to be married in
:03:47. > :03:55.secret, for fear of being prosecuted for what they see as a
:03:55. > :04:01.cultural tradition. Some people view this as a cultural problem.
:04:01. > :04:05.They don't want to marrying outside of their family. I don't want to
:04:06. > :04:09.get married! Some say the new law will make things worse. Could
:04:09. > :04:17.victims' be less likely to seek help if they think their own
:04:17. > :04:24.parents can be imprisoned? The Government says it is about time
:04:24. > :04:27.that we set our ground. I strongly opposed specific stand-alone
:04:27. > :04:30.legislation with forced marriage because forced marriage can be
:04:30. > :04:38.prosecuted under existing legislation and this is supported
:04:38. > :04:44.by leading barristers, including Lord Lester. And the end violence
:04:44. > :04:54.against women coalition. Should we make forced marriage a crime?
:04:54. > :05:02.
:05:02. > :05:06.We would show the results at the end of the programme. The thing
:05:06. > :05:10.that the Government says is we have had all these years to deal with
:05:10. > :05:13.the existing law and we need to just make it a crime? It is
:05:13. > :05:19.recognised as a crime, particularly in terms of the human rights
:05:19. > :05:24.violation. I do not a pose that but argument and the argument of other
:05:24. > :05:31.organisations, over 114 of them, is that it can be prosecuted under
:05:31. > :05:40.existing legislation, the Civil Protection Act in 2008 is effective
:05:40. > :05:45.and recognised. Is it not that you think it will make things worse?
:05:45. > :05:50.All of these laws but it is going on, 8000 women each year. I dispute
:05:51. > :05:59.those figures, that is another debate. For that make this worse?
:05:59. > :06:03.It would deter victims from coming forward. Donna, will it make people
:06:03. > :06:08.afraid to come forward? At the moment they have to take it to a
:06:08. > :06:15.civil court. What young Asian girl can do that? The thing is, it is a
:06:15. > :06:18.crime against human-rights and with miners it is abuse, child abuse. We
:06:18. > :06:24.have to send a strong message that this will not be tolerated and the
:06:24. > :06:29.point is that, I am sorry, but groups themselves, the Iranian and
:06:29. > :06:32.Kurdish women's rights organisation and there was a study in Cambridge
:06:32. > :06:36.that's it they want tougher legislation, they want to be able
:06:36. > :06:41.to use this against their parents if they have to to say, this is a
:06:41. > :06:48.bargaining chip and you cannot do this. But we have to give a message
:06:48. > :06:56.to the community. The goal of this is to be as a deterrent? What has
:06:56. > :07:03.not been recognised is the need for indications of prosecution because
:07:03. > :07:06.the standard of proof in relation to criminal proceedings... Is it
:07:06. > :07:12.not supposed to put people off carrying out forced marriages? Then
:07:12. > :07:19.you don't have to worry? There is legislation already in place.
:07:19. > :07:24.is piecemeal. It isn't. They have to prove there was kidnapping. What
:07:24. > :07:30.it does not recognise is the course of behaviour. If a girl, 17 years
:07:30. > :07:35.old, under pressure, you need to do this, we will be ostracised, she
:07:35. > :07:38.pretends to fall ill and the girl eventually gives them and after
:07:38. > :07:44.weeks of emotional and psychological pressure. That forced
:07:44. > :07:50.marriage isn't considered illegal at the moment. There are existing
:07:50. > :07:54.laws. Rip, GBH, false imprisonment, people should be prosecuted. The
:07:54. > :07:59.danger is, I initially thought this was a straightforward case of a
:07:59. > :08:04.separate criminal offence but having spoken to grassroots
:08:04. > :08:08.activists, including a fantastic organisation that works of victims,
:08:08. > :08:15.there is a real fear that this will deter young women and particularly
:08:15. > :08:21.children from coming forward. There is a massive problem. Up to 8000
:08:21. > :08:26.forced marriages taking place each year. About 1500 each year are
:08:26. > :08:31.referred to the forced marriage unit. At one that work that works
:08:31. > :08:34.with people, looking after people who have escaped from forced
:08:34. > :08:37.marriages, they ask those women it they would come forward if it was a
:08:37. > :08:41.separate criminal offence and overwhelmingly they said they would
:08:41. > :08:46.not. At the moment we have forced marriage protection orders that
:08:46. > :08:52.have been working quite well with only five violations. We should
:08:52. > :09:00.criminalise the violations of those orders. They should also include
:09:00. > :09:10.course of behaviour. The Lord isn't recognised psychological caution.
:09:10. > :09:11.
:09:11. > :09:16.Talk to the victims themselves. the moment, this is the other point,
:09:16. > :09:23.only �500 million has been -- five- under �1,000 has been allotted.
:09:23. > :09:28.That isn't sufficient. It cost over �100,000 to put this legislation
:09:28. > :09:34.and players and it has not been given due regard. The issue around
:09:34. > :09:42.protection has been neglected and the Government has not listened to
:09:42. > :09:46.the 136 organisations... experienced a forced marriage
:09:46. > :09:51.yourself when you are very young. What is your view on the idea of
:09:51. > :09:55.this Government criminalising forced marriages? First and
:09:55. > :09:59.foremost, Alan Knott name-drop organisations, I will speak as a
:09:59. > :10:08.survivor and on behalf of the many hundreds of victims who are helped
:10:08. > :10:11.every single one. Many fully support this, including the general
:10:11. > :10:18.public. We went on the streets across England, asked people for
:10:18. > :10:22.their views and 2500 people cannot be wrong. 98% believe it should be
:10:22. > :10:27.criminalised and the reason is the Prime Minister is right to send out
:10:27. > :10:30.a signal that such appalling acts of exportation are unacceptable in
:10:30. > :10:33.the 21st century Britain. If this country believes that forced
:10:33. > :10:41.marriage is an illegal practice, they will be prepared to deal with
:10:41. > :10:46.it. Would we have helped you when you're 15? With respect to the
:10:46. > :10:51.legal framework, what is very evident is that very few of the
:10:51. > :10:56.legal mechanisms available are being used to take cases to court.
:10:56. > :11:03.This isn't about the number of prosecutions, I believe in the
:11:03. > :11:07.symbolic value. For those girls who for the summer holidays, there will
:11:07. > :11:12.be hundreds taken at a school and put into forced marriage and they
:11:12. > :11:16.need to know this is a crime and overnight we're giving them the
:11:16. > :11:20.message that this is against the law in this country and I have
:11:20. > :11:26.spoken at schools across the country. Young people do not view
:11:26. > :11:36.this as a crime. I want to bring in another person who survived forced
:11:36. > :11:38.
:11:38. > :11:44.marriage. This happened to you. What is your view? Well, the law
:11:44. > :11:50.would not have helped me when I escaped. Can I just say, it was a
:11:50. > :11:55.lot that got it right in the first place. The wire with this lot not
:11:55. > :12:00.protect you? I was taken at a school at the age of 13. The school
:12:00. > :12:07.did not ask any questions. I was taken abroad and forced into a
:12:07. > :12:10.marriage. I was brought back to this country pregnant. The GP, a
:12:10. > :12:20.hospital, social services did not ask any questions when I was giving
:12:20. > :12:25.birth to my baby at the age of 14. When I escaped and came to
:12:25. > :12:29.Manchester, the lough got it right. So, I do not know why the
:12:29. > :12:33.Government has put new legislation in place to tackle the issue of
:12:33. > :12:43.forced marriage. Existing legislation is already working.
:12:43. > :12:43.
:12:43. > :12:48.What needs to happen is that... People need to take this on board,
:12:48. > :12:54.like schools, doctors and hospitals, and then need to start tackling
:12:54. > :13:01.this as a preventative measure. Not when it happens. This is exactly
:13:01. > :13:10.what the law will do, put money into educating? This is a quick fix,
:13:10. > :13:14.�500,000. At the other end of the argument is that people and
:13:14. > :13:17.violence against women in the UK. At one end we will do with this and
:13:17. > :13:22.at the other end, bulldozing those services that are lifelines for
:13:22. > :13:26.victims and survivors. In the case of victims who are coursed into
:13:26. > :13:31.marriage against their will, will they go? When those criminal
:13:31. > :13:37.proceedings kick in? Into housing and things like that? Where is the
:13:37. > :13:41.money? Women's refuges across the country are facing serious cutbacks.
:13:41. > :13:47.Legal aid faces massive cutbacks so women will not be able to take
:13:47. > :13:51.civic address on these people. We need a national campaign to educate.
:13:51. > :14:00.Proper resources to educate. Teachers and all those people who
:14:00. > :14:03.work in the community to identify early signs. As I understand it,
:14:03. > :14:07.even when the law is passed, victims of forced marriage will
:14:07. > :14:10.still have a choice whether to go the civil writ or the criminal
:14:10. > :14:15.route and if they take criminal proceedings, they can change their
:14:15. > :14:18.mind so the options are just being widened. The thing is, the
:14:18. > :14:24.communities themselves which these women feel they are being
:14:24. > :14:27.ostracised from, they need to be changed from the inside out. What
:14:27. > :14:34.David Cameron said is, why is it taking so long? Are we being afraid
:14:34. > :14:37.of being called racist? Yes! Multiculturalism, letting cultures
:14:38. > :14:46.function independently within society. You don't importer own
:14:46. > :14:50.laws. You are a UK citizen! This isn't a problem endemic in entire
:14:50. > :14:54.communities, most of nothing to do with forced marriage whatsoever.
:14:54. > :15:04.And if you end up stigmatising people, it can be counter-
:15:04. > :15:04.
:15:04. > :15:08.One session was set up with Irish traveller families, it was
:15:08. > :15:12.cancelled precisely because of that awful programme on Channel 4,
:15:12. > :15:19.because they thought it would help if you're the stigmatisation of the
:15:19. > :15:22.communities. I think they should be it is illegal, human rights abuse,
:15:22. > :15:30.they should be stigmatised! Forced marriages happen in all communities,
:15:30. > :15:34.it just doesn't happen in the South Asian community. Light with
:15:34. > :15:37.Rochdale, nobody wanted to talk about it. That is just saying the
:15:37. > :15:40.fact. One of the things the government is considering doing is
:15:40. > :15:44.if parents try take the girls abroad, they have to register their
:15:44. > :15:48.intent with the local registrar, so if there is a marriage, we know
:15:48. > :15:54.about it before it happens. But the government has also said they are
:15:54. > :15:58.going to put more money into protecting victims long term.
:15:58. > :16:05.do you say on this issue about whether there was too much
:16:05. > :16:10.political correctness? We had a poster saying forced marriage is
:16:10. > :16:13.abuse cannot cultural. The reason being that these professionals,
:16:13. > :16:16.teachers, police officers up and down the country, we speak to
:16:16. > :16:20.thousands of people every year, tell us there is a real fear that
:16:20. > :16:25.when they look at this, they feel they have to tiptoe around it and
:16:25. > :16:29.deal with it as something cultural. There is a real fear about being
:16:29. > :16:37.called racist. We have to acknowledge that we have a
:16:37. > :16:41.statutory guidance, for the statutory sector. But they're not
:16:41. > :16:45.in permitting it because they don't feel it is part of their business,
:16:45. > :16:50.criminalising forced marriage will place a duty on them. I don't
:16:50. > :16:55.understand why we are waiting -- wasting time, it seems nonsensical
:16:55. > :16:59.to me to be arguing and debating about measures that will be
:17:00. > :17:05.strengthened to protect the weak in society.
:17:05. > :17:10.I don't disagree with regard to putting the victim as part of the
:17:10. > :17:15.justice system, I think our work, violence against women coalition, I
:17:15. > :17:19.think it is about as in the victim at the heart of this. My concern is
:17:19. > :17:26.that there is not enough emphasis on non criminal justice routes in
:17:26. > :17:31.terms of the perception, and provision. We have a woman's right
:17:31. > :17:36.organiser, you had issues with not feeling you could talk about the
:17:36. > :17:42.race issue enforced marriage? Deflected. It has been going on in
:17:42. > :17:48.increasing numbers, and for a long time we felt, as white women who
:17:48. > :17:52.ran refuges and places a century's, that we had to keep quiet, that we
:17:52. > :17:56.would be accused of being racist, we were being culturally
:17:56. > :18:00.insensitive. We felt we had to tiptoe around the issue. But having
:18:00. > :18:04.listened time and again to the appalling stories of young Asian
:18:05. > :18:08.women, we thought, we're not going to be silenced any more. I am over
:18:08. > :18:12.the moon that forced marriage has been made a crime, I think the
:18:12. > :18:19.other feminist women's organisations are utterly wrong in
:18:19. > :18:22.denying women their right. Take on the issues, people were just two of
:18:22. > :18:27.Fred, they were not standing up for victims, as in Rochdale, the
:18:27. > :18:32.victims of abuse were being ignored. There is a clear way round this. We
:18:32. > :18:35.need more voices from within the communities, that is why it some of
:18:35. > :18:43.these organisations are embedded in the communities. They haven't
:18:43. > :18:46.changed things? They have, they are arguing... Let me finish. They are
:18:46. > :18:52.doing for decriminalisation of all breaches of the forced marriage
:18:52. > :18:56.protection orders. But if we are ending up with situations where it
:18:56. > :19:01.is just why people talking on behalf of those communities, it
:19:01. > :19:05.will be counter-productive. You say you don't care about demonisation.
:19:05. > :19:10.Any cultural group doing something wrong, let's get the racist group
:19:10. > :19:14.out of here! Don't be afraid to say, this is wrong, it is illegal!
:19:14. > :19:19.no one is disagreeing with that point. The problem with what you're
:19:19. > :19:23.saying is that if you end up demonising people... I am not
:19:23. > :19:27.demonising anyone. If you end up with groups feeling stigmatised,
:19:27. > :19:31.they will not co-operate and work with people, and that has been the
:19:31. > :19:36.experience of women's groups so far. If they feel their grip has been
:19:36. > :19:39.demonised in any way, that breaks down a sense of trust. If there is
:19:39. > :19:44.already a law in place that begins to change attitudes, then those
:19:44. > :19:47.people beginning to feel demonised can actually say, this is the law.
:19:47. > :19:52.It is not my personal feeling involved any more, this is the law
:19:52. > :19:55.of the country. It is already the law of the country. Domestic
:19:55. > :19:59.violence doesn't have a stand-alone piece of legislation, it is
:19:59. > :20:02.prosecuted under existing legislation, so let's not lose that
:20:02. > :20:09.wider debate in terms of training it within that issue of violence
:20:09. > :20:19.against women. Is this law about changing the demonisation around?
:20:19. > :20:29.
:20:29. > :20:32.Should we make a forced marriage a England take to the pitch against
:20:32. > :20:38.France tomorrow, but this year, politics seems to be a budding
:20:38. > :20:41.football of the centre stage. First there was the row over racist
:20:41. > :20:45.chants and attacks, and now British ministers are boycotting games over
:20:45. > :20:52.human rights abuses in Ukraine. It is the sporting field the best
:20:52. > :20:56.place to make a political point? England start their Euro 2012
:20:56. > :21:02.campaign tomorrow, but our ministers and the world Princes
:21:02. > :21:07.will not be there to cheer them on. I hope for our team, it is a great
:21:07. > :21:10.sporting event, but we don't want people to understand that as giving
:21:10. > :21:15.political support to some things that have been happening in Ukraine
:21:15. > :21:19.that we don't agree with. The one of those things is the treatment of
:21:19. > :21:23.the Ukraine's opposition leader, Timoshenko, serving seven years
:21:23. > :21:31.after what her supporters say was a show trial, and she claims she has
:21:31. > :21:39.been beaten in jail by guards. And some England fans were also staying
:21:40. > :21:44.away, because if fears about racist thugs in Ukraine. So is it right to
:21:44. > :21:50.boycott sporting events to punish the country for its human rights
:21:50. > :21:53.record, why should sport, by its nature, be above politics? Nobly
:21:53. > :21:56.refused to go to the Beijing Olympics, and there are lots of
:21:56. > :22:01.reasons not to go to China. I'm sure there are bad things going on
:22:01. > :22:04.in Ukraine, but trying to pick which means you should boycott or
:22:04. > :22:07.not, there are other ways to achieve that rather than sport.
:22:07. > :22:14.Others say international sporting events are the best place to
:22:14. > :22:18.highlight injustice simply because so many people are watching them.
:22:18. > :22:23.Most famously, our refusal to play sport with apartheid South Africa,
:22:23. > :22:27.which probably played a part in ending the racist regime. But what
:22:27. > :22:35.makes an effective boycott? The borrowing from three was called off
:22:35. > :22:40.after violence Against democracy protesters. -- Bahrain grant Prix.
:22:40. > :22:44.So should sport be separate from politics no matter who the host
:22:44. > :22:47.country? Or as a show of solidarity for countries in turmoil, should
:22:47. > :22:55.our sportsmen and women lead the way towards blowing the final
:22:55. > :22:58.whistle on unjust regimes? We are joined by Hugo MacNeill, who
:22:59. > :23:04.risked his career by refusing to join his team on a tour in
:23:04. > :23:08.apartheid South Africa. Why did you decide to do it? I think it was the
:23:08. > :23:11.end of my first year playing for Ireland, there was a lot of
:23:11. > :23:15.controversy at the time with the apartheid regime, apartheid was
:23:16. > :23:21.very active in sport, the fans were segregated, black players couldn't
:23:21. > :23:26.play on the same basis, and rugby was very much part of the regime
:23:26. > :23:31.there. A lot of the black leaders were saying, please don't come, I
:23:31. > :23:40.remember of us at Trinity College at Dublin, and one of the
:23:40. > :23:48.professors said, "please don't come and play rugby". It just fell to me
:23:48. > :23:52.that it wasn't the right thing to do. -- thought to me. The injured
:23:52. > :23:56.to -- interesting thing was I play it would be with a lot of South
:23:56. > :24:00.Africans after that, and I thought their reaction would be critical,
:24:00. > :24:04.and it was very interesting, because these were very impressive
:24:04. > :24:09.people, very liberal, a number of whom have gone and done great work
:24:09. > :24:13.in South Africa, and they said to me, it was absolutely right not to
:24:13. > :24:17.come. Because a lot of people in the regime didn't really care about
:24:17. > :24:22.the financial markets, but they did care about not being able to see
:24:22. > :24:25.the Springboks. What did you make of this? I think you made the right
:24:25. > :24:29.decision. I think whether his overt racism involved, whether it is
:24:29. > :24:33.about people who can come to watch it all players on the field now,
:24:33. > :24:38.being attacked for their skin colour, it is something that you
:24:38. > :24:42.have to do something about. But do you pick and choose which subjects?
:24:42. > :24:47.His team was going, only a few players have made that decision.
:24:47. > :24:50.feeling is about basic human rights. The thing is to make your eye in a
:24:50. > :24:55.team that is going to a country with a bad human rights record,
:24:55. > :24:58.does the team stand back and say, I can't do this? I don't like sports
:24:58. > :25:01.players being used as political pawns by government, and the
:25:01. > :25:08.governments themselves should be taking action to stop did you feel
:25:08. > :25:13.you were being used in any way? I think it was a personal decision.
:25:13. > :25:16.I think I can take the view of people who say, may be the softly
:25:16. > :25:21.employment is better, maybe we should encourage and develop
:25:21. > :25:26.dialogue, and that is often better, we saw in our own country, Ireland,
:25:26. > :25:30.Northern Ireland, it has been useful, but I think there are times
:25:30. > :25:34.you have just got to take hard decisions. We have a government
:25:34. > :25:38.making decisions, the ministers are not going out, is that different?
:25:38. > :25:44.The point is, the argument against it is that sport should be kept out
:25:44. > :25:48.of politics, but the point is that sport can become political. It
:25:48. > :25:53.should have been the whole team in your situation. What it means in
:25:53. > :26:03.the apartheid era is basically a PR exercise for PR -- apartheid South
:26:03. > :26:05.
:26:05. > :26:09.Africa. Compare it to today, what situation are we in in the UK,? --
:26:09. > :26:15.Ukraine? It is a complex one, because Bahrainis should definitely
:26:15. > :26:19.have been boycotted, and whilst it was taking place, that event helped
:26:19. > :26:22.the regime. Ukraine is more complicated, because I think there
:26:22. > :26:26.has been a lot of sensationalist reporting about the issue of racism
:26:26. > :26:31.in the Ukraine. It is a problem as in many other countries, including
:26:31. > :26:35.our own, but England played in 2009 in the Ukraine without a single
:26:35. > :26:41.racist incident. I want to bring in a former Premier League footballer,
:26:41. > :26:50.who is now campaigning on race. What is your view about whether we
:26:50. > :26:54.should be at Euro 2012? My view is first of all, good morning, but my
:26:54. > :27:01.view is that footballers should be used as political tools, the
:27:02. > :27:05.situation is that Poland and Ukraine have been granted these
:27:05. > :27:08.championships, and really, we have got to go there, showed solidarity
:27:08. > :27:18.in that we want to fight any forms of discrimination by actually going
:27:18. > :27:19.
:27:19. > :27:22.there and showing how players from mixed backgrounds promote... Mixed
:27:22. > :27:28.race and black, white, can all come together to win a match or to play
:27:28. > :27:32.together to try and win a football match, that is the positive message.
:27:32. > :27:38.Hugo, that is the opposite of what you did? I think the situation in
:27:38. > :27:42.South Africa was different, because there was an apartheid regime, and
:27:42. > :27:47.sport turned into a positive. It shouldn't just be in -- individual
:27:47. > :27:52.players. So that the car was excluded from World Cups until the
:27:52. > :27:58.situation changed. -- South Africa was excluded. Then they came back
:27:58. > :28:02.into the World Cup in 1995, and won it, and President Mandela came into
:28:02. > :28:10.Beck Springboks dressing room, and wore a Jessica Moore which was the
:28:10. > :28:18.symbol of the regime, and sport had a been transformed into a positive
:28:18. > :28:24.Fuss X wore a Springboks jersey. a country that has bad human rights,
:28:24. > :28:29.if a team goes in and shows car operation, could well, Sport polite
:28:29. > :28:35.behaviour, fairness, that can set an example that can permeate
:28:35. > :28:44.through society. It is a subtle and a long-term thing, but it is an
:28:44. > :28:50.Eastern European has are being portrayed as knuckle dragging
:28:50. > :28:54.racists, which isn't true. France will host this in 2016 and one in
:28:54. > :28:58.five French voters voted for a far- right party but no-one is kicking
:28:58. > :29:02.off about that. In the Ukraine there have been allegations of
:29:02. > :29:07.things like monkey chanting and that has to be taken very seriously
:29:07. > :29:12.by your wife have. And taken to the fullest possible prosecution.
:29:12. > :29:16.Players like Road hole at say they should just walk off. Individually,
:29:16. > :29:21.even if they might be disciplined. And would not say that anybody
:29:21. > :29:26.being abused, you should do what you feel like, and one of the
:29:26. > :29:31.dangers is that if you have a crowd of 18,000 people and one in eight
:29:31. > :29:36.starts shouting that somebody or if your team is losing and they try to
:29:36. > :29:42.us at the other players to walk off, that is difficult. It is a personal
:29:42. > :29:46.decision but the other point is that sport can also be a very
:29:46. > :29:52.positive means of influencing and changing society. Great strides
:29:52. > :30:01.have been made in Britain on the racist Front. Garth Crooks a couple
:30:01. > :30:06.of years ago was talking about this. This states to be taken on. We have
:30:06. > :30:16.a fanned from the Association in Great Britain. Should baby in the
:30:16. > :30:19.Ukraine at all? Absolutely. They were like to give the Games to
:30:19. > :30:23.Poland and Ukraine, countries that have a very proud and tragic
:30:23. > :30:27.history. Both are very rich in culture and tradition and these
:30:27. > :30:32.parts of the world were not accessible to the West not so long
:30:32. > :30:37.ago. We have all seen the terrible pictures that were shown on the
:30:37. > :30:42.Panorama programme but they are in no way a representation of the
:30:42. > :30:47.whole of the population of both Ukraine and Poland. They do not
:30:47. > :30:53.reflect the culture and hospitality of those people. What about human
:30:53. > :30:58.rights abuses? There is a serious problem with human rights. And the
:30:58. > :31:03.main problem in Ukraine at the moment is the issue of the rule of
:31:03. > :31:09.law and the judiciary system. isn't not a reason for a boycott?
:31:09. > :31:16.It is a reason for the Government to not send ministers to be seen
:31:16. > :31:20.relaxing with the authorities in Ukraine at the moment. Thank you. I
:31:20. > :31:27.want to bring in the Ukrainian ambassador to the UK, who joins us
:31:27. > :31:33.on the line. Our government isn't sending ministers because of your
:31:33. > :31:38.Government's alleged human rights abuses. Is that fair? Thank you for
:31:38. > :31:46.the question. As was mentioned before, politics and sport do not
:31:46. > :31:56.mix. It is a sorry decision by any government cannot send people to
:31:56. > :31:57.
:31:57. > :32:01.these events. This isn't inter- governmental. I would like to say
:32:02. > :32:05.that there are plenty of places where human rights issues can be
:32:05. > :32:13.discussed and they are being discussed, the Human Rights Council,
:32:13. > :32:17.the United Nations, the Council of Europe. Thank you. I want to get
:32:17. > :32:20.some response from the panel. are serious allegations in his
:32:20. > :32:25.country and it is that that the right that government ministers do
:32:25. > :32:29.not go up and when you says boards are not political, that isn't true
:32:29. > :32:33.because sporting events facilitate Government's showing solidarity
:32:33. > :32:37.with other governments under those allegations but the problem we have
:32:37. > :32:42.is the hold of Ukraine is being tarred by the actions of a small
:32:42. > :32:48.minority. That happen with England fans a few years ago, some
:32:49. > :32:53.hooligans were used to betray all England fans as a problem. I agree
:32:53. > :32:57.that government and sport should not mix but it is a reaction to the
:32:57. > :33:00.human rights issue. I think that you were for me to get tougher, all
:33:00. > :33:06.they had to do is admit there is a real problem rather than heads in
:33:06. > :33:11.the sand. Or if the referee does not do anything, they cannot walk
:33:11. > :33:15.off. They need to get tough and the men doing the chanting have to be
:33:15. > :33:21.chucked out immediately. Maybe the whole section so that people around
:33:21. > :33:26.them will stop them. Where do you draw the line? Personal protests
:33:26. > :33:31.but then Bahrain, we went to China for the Olympics, how do you view
:33:31. > :33:37.that decision-making process? personal and there is a big
:33:37. > :33:42.difference between apartheid South Africa and Poland and Ukraine.
:33:42. > :33:48.even with those abuses? I do not minimise in any way those, they
:33:48. > :33:54.should be dealt with. And the organisations must take leadership.
:33:54. > :33:59.We have seen how sport can actually go on, South Africa, sport could
:33:59. > :34:04.bind people. And when the IRA blew up Canary Wharf, myself and another
:34:04. > :34:07.team-mate, Irish people, were walking on the streets and we said,
:34:08. > :34:12.this isn't in our name. We organised Peace International, and
:34:12. > :34:16.many of the best players in the world came as a stick and against
:34:16. > :34:26.IRA violence and one of the big South Africans who sent it is
:34:26. > :34:30.amazing images came to us. Francois Pienaar. It can be a force for good.
:34:30. > :34:34.Would you draw the line? The government boycott? Personal?
:34:34. > :34:40.few are going to be abused in the stands, you should not be on the
:34:40. > :34:45.field. When sport becomes a prop for dictatorships engaged and
:34:45. > :34:49.struggles with the people fighting for democracy. If people face
:34:49. > :34:54.racism on the pitch, they should walk out on their team-mates should
:34:54. > :34:57.also in solidarity. Picture, the author of Downton a big described
:34:57. > :35:03.as the last acceptable prejudice, bashing posh people just for being
:35:03. > :35:07.posh. Is he right or are we just jealous? In modern Britain, too
:35:07. > :35:15.posh people have to much power? We will hear from Francis Boulle from
:35:15. > :35:25.Made in Chelsea. You can contact us. And key boating on the text poll.
:35:25. > :35:28.
:35:28. > :35:38.Should we make a forced marriage a You have five minutes before this
:35:38. > :35:45.closes. Time for the more moment of the week when guests pick the
:35:45. > :35:51.stories that got themselves worked up. We will start with a one?
:35:51. > :35:53.Miliband and his Englishness speech. This has been a debate, what is
:35:53. > :35:59.English identity? It means different things to different
:35:59. > :36:03.people. Tea, queuing, football. I think it is something that
:36:03. > :36:09.politicians should not be getting their noses into, it is like
:36:09. > :36:14.religious belief, it is private. I am not sure we should be defining
:36:14. > :36:18.people primarily by their national identity. A supermarket worker in
:36:18. > :36:25.Manchester has far more in common with another supermarket worker in
:36:25. > :36:28.Glasgow or Paris or Athens, particularly at these times of
:36:28. > :36:33.austerity, and my fear was that this was pandering to a certain
:36:33. > :36:39.form of English nationalism which is very exclusive and divisive and
:36:39. > :36:44.should be left to people themselves to work out. Donna, you have a
:36:44. > :36:49.story about a young woman thrown off a bus because she lacked 20p?
:36:49. > :36:52.This was in December in Nottingham. She stood for eight minutes
:36:52. > :36:56.remonstrating, she said she would go to the cashpoint or call her
:36:56. > :37:01.mother and he threw her off the bus. People around her did not come
:37:01. > :37:06.forward with 20p. She was subsequently raped and beaten and
:37:06. > :37:11.left for dead. This is incredible, it happened around Christmas time.
:37:11. > :37:16.What is it about people at the moment they see any ruckus, they
:37:16. > :37:20.shut themselves away. What is wrong with the bus driver? He could not
:37:20. > :37:25.use common sense? Or maybe he was a sadist and using his little bit of
:37:25. > :37:29.power. These men are behind glass, no conductors, they don't even
:37:29. > :37:34.relate to people, they cannot be bothered to deal with this. I hope
:37:34. > :37:38.to God he does not get a good night's sleep from now on, I am so
:37:38. > :37:42.angry and the bus company is protecting him. They say that lies
:37:42. > :37:48.were told in court. The people on that bus have to think again. This
:37:48. > :37:52.is just common sense. What is your view? That is a horrendous
:37:52. > :37:57.situation. Both from the driver's point to you and how could
:37:57. > :38:02.everybody else? At the moment, but I was younger we were told it that
:38:02. > :38:06.was it at night and you were young, and you did not have the bus fare,
:38:06. > :38:10.you should give you details and say you have someone waiting, that is
:38:10. > :38:16.what she did. But there is no system in place and this was in the
:38:16. > :38:22.freezing cold, 3 o'clock that morning. She did nearly die. The
:38:22. > :38:25.bus fare was �5. Bus fares are out of control as it is. It puts young
:38:25. > :38:31.woman's lives at risk and we need a system that allows people to be
:38:31. > :38:36.able to get on. Hugo, you are interested in the fact that Disney
:38:36. > :38:41.will band junk food advertisements from their channels? I thought this
:38:41. > :38:45.was another nanny state thing but as someone who loves America, three
:38:45. > :38:49.weeks ago I was there and we went outside New York and be walking
:38:49. > :38:55.around a shopping mall and I was just staggered at the size of
:38:55. > :39:01.people and children, in particular. I live in the Republic of Ireland
:39:01. > :39:07.and a recent survey says the 20% of 3 euros are overweight. 12% or
:39:07. > :39:12.obese. It is very clever what Michelle Obama has done because the
:39:12. > :39:16.President tried to bring in something against soft drinks and
:39:16. > :39:20.it was defeated but by her time this up with Disney, that is very
:39:20. > :39:25.clever because the American marketing has made either watching
:39:25. > :39:30.sport or watching cinema, it isn't complete without a huge amount of
:39:30. > :39:35.advertising. And that is true, I have lived here for most of my life
:39:35. > :39:39.but when I go back on, I cannot believe how many more children are
:39:39. > :39:42.obese, the food industry in America has a stranglehold on the media and
:39:42. > :39:47.they are all was projecting advertisements to very young
:39:47. > :39:51.children. Define junk-food, there are such things as good hamburgers
:39:51. > :39:56.and healthy pizza but this is about manufacturers thinking about what
:39:56. > :40:01.they put into these. Disney is making a moral stand? They are
:40:01. > :40:05.tapping into this growing sense, not least because childhood obesity
:40:05. > :40:09.is a problem in America and also here, and a lot of people will
:40:09. > :40:14.welcome the stand. I would like to see it emulated, I would like to
:40:14. > :40:18.see advertising aimed at children... Think of the Olympics and all of
:40:18. > :40:23.those brands? I do think that it will be beneficial. We need to
:40:23. > :40:27.start thinking about things along these lines, particularly around
:40:27. > :40:31.children's programmes, not having advertisements for McDonald's.
:40:31. > :40:36.There are some rules? And they should expand that. Chatted obesity
:40:36. > :40:41.is something that is growing across the western world. Thank you all.
:40:41. > :40:47.If you have a webcam, you can make her point on such a media and Skype
:40:47. > :40:51.water when the conversation on Twitter and buy text. You have been
:40:51. > :41:01.voting, should be made forced marriage a crime and the poll is
:41:01. > :41:03.
:41:03. > :41:07.closing so please do not text any more. -- should we make. Took part
:41:07. > :41:11.boys who don't do the price of milk, that is how it the Tory MP in
:41:11. > :41:16.Aideen Tory described the PM and the Chancellor and said they do not
:41:16. > :41:22.want to understand the lives of others. Is she right? Our leaders
:41:22. > :41:28.out of touch or are we just touchy about class? One person who thinks
:41:28. > :41:33.so is Francis Boulle from Made in Chelsea, he is where he stands...
:41:33. > :41:39.don't believe that all posh people have power, it has hired someone
:41:39. > :41:42.used as a power. No-one has control over the background, there are
:41:42. > :41:48.advantages and disadvantages to being rich and poor. It's up to us
:41:48. > :41:55.whether we let that limit as. When I hear someone commenting on
:41:55. > :41:59.someone's class and defining them, I think the Speaker is in some way
:41:59. > :42:03.deflecting attention from themselves, some inherent prejudice.
:42:03. > :42:09.I am proud of who I am and what I have achieved and I will certainly
:42:09. > :42:13.not apologise for that. So many posh people are in high places but
:42:13. > :42:17.they have earned this places and they deserve them. That allows him
:42:17. > :42:20.to tackle society's worst problems. There are limitless possibilities
:42:21. > :42:25.in each of us, despite the positions into which we were born.
:42:25. > :42:29.It is only there for the taking. The only thing limiting us his
:42:29. > :42:35.imagination. No-one is aiming to land struggles, everyone
:42:35. > :42:42.understands pain, loss and despair. These experiences do not exist
:42:42. > :42:48.along class lines, no-one is his attempt. Surely, this unites us? --
:42:48. > :42:56.no-one is exempt. You can join in with webcam or over the phone or on
:42:56. > :43:00.mine. Are you just chippy about the fact you're not posh? I am not posh
:43:00. > :43:05.or a working-class hero. It is interesting, when you stand up for
:43:05. > :43:10.the bottom 70% recorded a class warrior but when you stand up for
:43:10. > :43:14.the top 1% to and you are labelled immoderate. When taxes are slashed
:43:14. > :43:18.for the rich and VAT is increased for the majority, that his fiscal
:43:18. > :43:22.credibility, but calling for rich people to pay their fair share,
:43:22. > :43:25.you're a frothing at the mouth class warrior and you should never
:43:25. > :43:30.hold anybody's background against them. No-one has any control over
:43:30. > :43:34.their upbringing, it isn't about snobbery, it is about the fact that
:43:34. > :43:38.society is so dominated by privileged people and it is run in
:43:38. > :43:43.their interests. Before the last election I interviewed his obvious,
:43:43. > :43:47.and I said, 5 million people in this country are stuck on social
:43:47. > :43:51.housing waiting list. Why don't Labour do something? She said,
:43:51. > :43:54.because no-one in government was that interested in housing. If you
:43:54. > :43:59.have people in Parliament who have been in that situation, stuck on a
:43:59. > :44:03.waiting list, it would force it to the top of the agenda but it is
:44:03. > :44:11.dominated by people from the most privileged backgrounds. How do you
:44:11. > :44:15.answer? I think you make some good points. I disagree with the tax
:44:15. > :44:20.side because you are inferring that by raising tax, you would generate
:44:20. > :44:25.more tax revenue, which isn't true. But what about not having the
:44:25. > :44:28.understanding or caring? That is ridiculous, like you said, you
:44:28. > :44:38.should not be penalised for what you are born into, you don't have
:44:38. > :44:43.Do you think people don't take seriously enough the concerns over
:44:43. > :44:47.things like social housing? they are important issues, but I
:44:47. > :44:52.think what you what inferring is people who was born into privilege
:44:52. > :45:00.don't understand that. It is just less likely, in it is not a live
:45:00. > :45:03.experience. So should they go live in a council estate? Absolutely not,
:45:03. > :45:07.what we need is a political system which is representative of the
:45:07. > :45:12.committees that exist. They were voted into power, they were
:45:12. > :45:14.sanctioned by the people. problem in terms of getting
:45:14. > :45:19.candidates collected while working class, there are lots of barriers
:45:19. > :45:24.in the way, it is the same in the media. The top 100 journalists,
:45:24. > :45:28.over half were privately educated. It wasn't because other people were
:45:28. > :45:34.not talented, but because to get into the media can we have to get
:45:34. > :45:39.an unpaid internship, living in London... I agree that creates a
:45:39. > :45:43.situation where people who are living in London, or who have the
:45:43. > :45:50.finance from their parents, they have an advantage, sure. But what
:45:50. > :45:53.I'm saying... So you agree? saying that we should always strive
:45:53. > :45:58.towards social mobility, obviously, but I don't think that if you are
:45:58. > :46:03.speaking about posh people in high places, in government, there are
:46:03. > :46:08.lots of other people who want posh. I don't really know what your
:46:08. > :46:11.definition is. For me, it is the fact, in Parliament today, over
:46:11. > :46:15.two-thirds of MPs come from a professional middle-class
:46:15. > :46:18.background, less than one in 20 are from an unskilled background. There
:46:19. > :46:22.are lots of people on the left, people like Tony Benn, George
:46:22. > :46:29.Orwell, they would from privileged backgrounds, they understood the
:46:29. > :46:33.issues affecting ordinary people, but it becomes less and less likely.
:46:33. > :46:36.I just want to bring in Nadine Dorries can she is the MP who
:46:36. > :46:42.accused the Chancellor and the Prime Minister of being out of
:46:42. > :46:46.touch. Would you make of France's's defence? I was slightly
:46:46. > :46:53.disappointed, because as a wing has highlighted, with the look at the
:46:53. > :46:57.BBC, banking, in the highly paid profession, the majority of people
:46:57. > :47:01.from what you describe as privileged background to stop
:47:01. > :47:05.privately educated. The problem is, this can be addressed in the future,
:47:05. > :47:12.the problem is that the private education sector are today has
:47:12. > :47:16.become so adept at providing absolutely excellent, world-class
:47:16. > :47:19.education about the state system is so far behind, that if you're an
:47:19. > :47:23.employer in banking or in the BBC, you're going to take on the best,
:47:23. > :47:26.and the best people are coming from the private sector today. You are
:47:27. > :47:31.saying more than that, Nadine, you are saying that your party leader
:47:31. > :47:36.and too many people in power what are arrogant and out of touch.
:47:36. > :47:39.Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who are the children of the
:47:39. > :47:44.privileged, they become the people in those high-earning and
:47:44. > :47:49.influential positions, and what we do need to see are more people from
:47:49. > :47:53.absolutely ordinary, normal working-class, northern, as well,
:47:54. > :47:59.background. Both the media and politics and the high-paid Industry
:47:59. > :48:05.to admitted by people from the south. We need more of that from
:48:05. > :48:10.the north. They're not going to do that until the education sector
:48:10. > :48:14.provides be same level of education as the private sector. Tell us, as
:48:14. > :48:19.a person has come from an American perspective, what you make of our
:48:19. > :48:23.obsession with class? It is part of your history, it is certainly not
:48:23. > :48:27.part of mind. I think the class system has done a lot to damage
:48:27. > :48:31.individual enterprise. Do you think Nadine is right when she says the
:48:31. > :48:34.government is arrogant and out of touch? Yes, because they have this
:48:34. > :48:38.public-school boy network where they only help each other out. So
:48:38. > :48:43.it becomes an enclosed club that perpetuates itself. When you are
:48:43. > :48:47.born into privilege, it is difficult Tim Firth -- defies the
:48:47. > :48:52.something you have never experienced, no matter how hard you
:48:52. > :48:56.try. He is right to say that it is about how you use power and
:48:56. > :49:02.privilege, but they Rotimi people born into it now to accept it as a
:49:02. > :49:05.God-given right, who do think they are better than other people and
:49:05. > :49:08.have not really gone on to do anything about helping other people
:49:08. > :49:13.with that power. Do you accept that there are the problem with people
:49:14. > :49:17.from your back run to don't care and are happy...? It is a problem
:49:17. > :49:22.with anyone who doesn't necessarily understand something that they
:49:22. > :49:27.haven't lived, trying to comment on it. But obviously you have to
:49:27. > :49:31.strive to understand and take all aspect. Just to go back to an
:49:31. > :49:36.earlier political era, the post-war Labour government it down to the
:49:36. > :49:40.NHS, Nye Bevan, who was a Welsh miner, he saw the health problems
:49:40. > :49:44.that existed in a working-class community in Wales. But there were
:49:44. > :49:48.rich, not to do with education, it was to do with a strong trade union
:49:48. > :49:52.movement, who gave working-class people an avenue into politics, as
:49:52. > :49:56.well as a strong local government. Both of those were battered by
:49:56. > :50:00.Thatcherism, and they closed down a lot of the routes, particularly the
:50:00. > :50:06.Labour Party, which has become more dominated by professional people.
:50:06. > :50:10.That is what we have less working- class people at the top. Nadine?
:50:10. > :50:16.doesn't mention people like Harold Macmillan, who was educated at Eton
:50:16. > :50:19.and Oxbridge, one of the first things he did was introduce an act
:50:19. > :50:23.to benefit the poorer and the working classes. Margaret Thatcher
:50:23. > :50:27.had a lot of working-class people voting for her, because she was a
:50:27. > :50:30.grocer's daughter, and although she went to Oxford, she and people like
:50:30. > :50:35.Robert Miller and could identify with the lives of the people they
:50:35. > :50:40.would governing. It is not just about Labour politicians, it is
:50:40. > :50:45.about politicians or across the board. It is, and it is a problem
:50:45. > :50:49.in the Labour Party, and even more in your party, as you keep
:50:49. > :50:59.repeatedly highlighted. It looks a little bit like a Cabot from the
:50:59. > :51:01.
:51:01. > :51:07.19th century. It is not just Labour. Julian bellows, who is appear, he
:51:07. > :51:11.said that it is a demonisation of the wealthy and the posh going on.
:51:11. > :51:15.Katie, you are right and you are a politically posh. What is your
:51:15. > :51:23.defence, are you being demonised? don't think we're being demonised,
:51:23. > :51:27.but I do think that being posh is a state of the being, rather than
:51:27. > :51:32.class. I do agree with Nadine, the state education system has a lot to
:51:32. > :51:38.answer for, we're at 60 or 70 years a bit, it should be better than it
:51:39. > :51:43.is. Explain the discrimination, do you really feel intimidated by the
:51:43. > :51:50.public debate around being posh? don't feel intimidated, what I have
:51:50. > :51:55.said is that plushness at its best incorporate courtesy, good manners,
:51:55. > :51:58.a sense of public duty, and to decry people because they are posh,
:51:58. > :52:06.without saying why it is that somehow, these people are worse
:52:06. > :52:09.than anybody else... I am glad... No one is suggesting a possible are
:52:09. > :52:12.being demonised, I think the suggestion is a offensive or. Since
:52:12. > :52:17.this government has been elected, the people who have been demonised
:52:17. > :52:21.are people on benefits, the disabled, public sector workers.
:52:21. > :52:25.They are been pilloried by the press. If it is also about
:52:25. > :52:33.traditional values, Francis, can you become posh? It is not just
:52:33. > :52:40.about wealth? I guess not everyone started off Posh, people, like
:52:40. > :52:50.Katie said, people can aspire to being posh, and it is an idea...
:52:50. > :52:55.
:52:55. > :53:02.is not just about inheritance? is about 100 times more difficult.
:53:02. > :53:07.Obviously, yes. We had some good examples of people who have made it.
:53:07. > :53:16.My personal Heron, Victoria Beckham, who has certainly been labelled
:53:16. > :53:19.Bosch. -- heroine of. I'm a little bit bemused as to what Posh means
:53:20. > :53:23.cover does it mean you were born into a certain class, is it your
:53:23. > :53:30.accent does it mean you went to a certain school, or is it about
:53:30. > :53:36.politics or personality? Is is just people who took advantage...?
:53:36. > :53:39.everybody aspires to money and everybody aspires to property.
:53:39. > :53:42.example, you're a dapper young lad, I am quite scruffy, I think if
:53:42. > :53:46.people want to, they should be proud of their background, they
:53:46. > :53:52.shouldn't feel shame to buy it. The point we are making his and
:53:52. > :53:58.personal. It is about the fact that our society is so delighted by
:53:58. > :54:03.people from privileged backgrounds. How would you solve that problem?
:54:03. > :54:11.Should we kill them all? I don't think anybody is calling genocide
:54:11. > :54:18.of rich people. We should always straight -- strive towards a more
:54:18. > :54:23.level cited as the other would paying more tax help? The key issue,
:54:23. > :54:28.it is not about killing people, it is about representation and a voice,
:54:28. > :54:32.about making sure that politics is rooted in communities, not prepared
:54:32. > :54:38.-- professional politicians who have never had a job outside the
:54:38. > :54:42.Westminster bubble. Over a third of our MPs are privately educated.
:54:42. > :54:47.don't we just talk about the great national character, how I perceive
:54:47. > :54:52.Brits, as opposed to looking at sub-groups? You have a reputation
:54:52. > :54:55.of being a tolerant country, being patient, resilient, this is what
:54:55. > :55:00.the average British oppression understand what they say, I am
:55:00. > :55:05.British. With the your upper class, working-class, middle-class, if you
:55:05. > :55:10.have the British trade, stubbornness may be as well. That
:55:10. > :55:13.is what we should all be aspiring to. Do you think our government is
:55:13. > :55:20.apologising to much? When David Cameron doesn't wear a morning suit
:55:20. > :55:25.to a wedding? I do, I think that is a results of a long-term inverted
:55:25. > :55:28.snobbery inverted -- pregnant in our society, that creates a
:55:29. > :55:33.situation where he has to apologise or try and hide his background. I
:55:33. > :55:35.did think anyone should be ashamed of their background to stop people
:55:35. > :55:42.should accept other people for their differences to stop and I
:55:42. > :55:46.agree. That is what makes this country great. I am sure there are
:55:46. > :55:50.some things we need to look at the dressing and try and improve social
:55:50. > :55:53.mobility. I don't think people should be penalised for taking
:55:53. > :56:03.advantage of the advantages they are presented with when they are
:56:03. > :56:14.
:56:14. > :56:17.born. We will have to leave it Were you surprised? No, not at all.
:56:17. > :56:21.The government are absolutely right to make it very clear statement
:56:21. > :56:26.that this is absolutely wrong, I would support that criminalisation
:56:27. > :56:32.of breaches of the forced marriage protected and orders. -- protection
:56:32. > :56:35.orders. Francis, there has been a history of forced marriages going
:56:35. > :56:42.back hundreds of years in aristocratic families, is it an
:56:42. > :56:47.issue you think about? Arranged, perhaps. Do you have a view on
:56:47. > :56:51.forced marriage? I think it is totally wrong. I think they might
:56:51. > :56:55.have been arranged and encourage marriage as it brought out in the
:56:55. > :57:02.aristocracy, if they are complicit in it, then fine, but I think
:57:02. > :57:07.anything that leads to other crimes come of violent crimes like rape
:57:07. > :57:12.and assault and things we have discussed, which are illegal,
:57:13. > :57:18.arranged marriage isn't. If there isn't and that leads to those
:57:18. > :57:22.things, should be in writing. not get bogged down in arguments
:57:22. > :57:26.about legality and make a litter, it is a crime against human rights,
:57:26. > :57:30.it needs to be stamped out and people need to be told, this is
:57:30. > :57:35.wrong, don't do it. You don't think it is about culture, race, you
:57:35. > :57:40.think it is about law? It is about any groups that want to entertain
:57:40. > :57:45.the idea of forced marriage. Thank you to all of you who have taken
:57:45. > :57:55.part today. We have been discussing sporting boycotts and a range of
:57:55. > :57:59.other things. Thanks to all of my guests. Dope text or call the phone