:00:11. > :00:13.Nine in ten people believe the Government should control what some
:00:13. > :00:17.welfare claimants spend their benefits on. That's the finding of
:00:18. > :00:22.a poll this week, but would such action unfairly punish the poor and
:00:22. > :00:32.vulnerable or in hard economic times, is it time to get tough with
:00:32. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:50.Good morning, I'm Samira Ahmed and welcome to Sunday morning live. New
:00:50. > :00:54.research shows that most of us believe that how claimants spend
:00:54. > :00:57.their benefits needs to be more tightly controlled, preventing them
:00:57. > :01:03.from squandering their money on so- called vices like cigarettes,
:01:03. > :01:06.alcohol and drugs. This week, the Archbishop of
:01:06. > :01:09.Canterbury said there were circumstances when abortion is the
:01:09. > :01:13.lesser evil, but with two Government ministers declaring
:01:13. > :01:18.their unease with the current laws, when is it right to terminate?
:01:18. > :01:21.And, the Iron Lady was famously not for turning with Party Conferences,
:01:21. > :01:26.a US presidential election and a new Head of The Church of England
:01:26. > :01:29.all in the offing now, what kind of leader do we need now?
:01:29. > :01:32.Why do we celebrate so-called tough leaders who never change their mind
:01:32. > :01:36.or change course? We need leaders who're strong enough to know when
:01:36. > :01:40.they're wrong and when it's right to do a U-turn.
:01:40. > :01:45.A warm welcome to all my guests. Charlie Wolf is broadcaster with
:01:45. > :01:49.Five Live and used to be Communications Director for
:01:49. > :01:53.Republicans abroad UK and an 80s off shore pirate radio. Stefan
:01:53. > :01:56.Stern is a Professor of Management, has written for the Financial Times
:01:56. > :02:02.and started out directing comedians in student review including Stuart
:02:02. > :02:05.Lee and Richard Herring. Derek Hatton came to prominence as the
:02:06. > :02:10.fire brand hard left Deputy Leader of Liverpool Council in the 80s,
:02:10. > :02:12.since then he's presented radio b developed property in Cyprus and is
:02:12. > :02:17.a Director of The Bike to work scheme.
:02:17. > :02:27.Call in to challenge our guests now. You can give your views on Twitter
:02:27. > :02:37.
:02:37. > :02:40.A survey this week by the think- tank DEMOS found that nine in ten
:02:40. > :02:44.believe we should control how at least some welfare claim Anns spend
:02:44. > :02:47.benefits. In parts of the US and Australia, they've already
:02:47. > :02:51.introdueed controls and support here has been growing dramatically
:02:51. > :02:56.even before the economic crisis could it make welfare work better
:02:56. > :03:00.in Britain today? As most of us feel the squeeze of
:03:00. > :03:03.austerity, there's growing support for issuing benefit claimants with
:03:03. > :03:07.food vouchers unstead of cash, effectively banning them from
:03:08. > :03:10.spending their money on alcohol, cigarettes, gambling and even junk
:03:10. > :03:16.foods. Anti-poverty campaigners are furious and believe the public are
:03:16. > :03:19.being fed a false image of people living the life of Riley on welfare.
:03:19. > :03:23.They argue that the introduction of stamps would rob the poor of
:03:24. > :03:27.control over their own lives and further stigmatise being on
:03:27. > :03:31.benefits in the first place. Labour politicians fear the welfare state
:03:31. > :03:35.is being fatally undermined and that benefits are social security
:03:35. > :03:39.and work best when claimants have control over their own money. But
:03:39. > :03:43.there's plenty of interest in the idea of encouraging healthy
:03:43. > :03:47.behaviour. The argument is that in families, it's the children who'd
:03:47. > :03:51.benefit. America has been issuing food stamps since the early 1960s.
:03:51. > :03:56.Britain has twice tried to introduce a similar system for
:03:56. > :04:02.asylum seek, once in 1999 and then again in 2006. However, both times,
:04:02. > :04:05.the scheme was aban downed as being both unfair and unworkable with
:04:05. > :04:10.many technical errors and critics ask if private IT companies should
:04:10. > :04:13.be making a profit out of welfare this way.
:04:13. > :04:18.Does the state not only have a right but a duty to ensure that
:04:18. > :04:21.public money is spent on healthy food, rather than gambling,
:04:21. > :04:26.cigarettes and cider, or once the money is handed over, should the
:04:26. > :04:31.individual be free to spend it how they please?
:04:31. > :04:36.Derek, surely limiting you in some way have people spend welfare is
:04:36. > :04:40.common-sense? I think it's totally unworkable. Secondly, I think it's
:04:40. > :04:43.very unfair and thirdly, it's yet again, when a Government is
:04:43. > :04:49.becoming unpopular, it's looking for scapegoats and in real terms
:04:49. > :04:53.it's not a major issue, it is for the claim Anns but not for the
:04:53. > :04:58.country. They are under pressure and they'll go for it. That is the
:04:58. > :05:08.question today. Should we limit what claimants spend their benefits
:05:08. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:22.We'll show how you voted at the end of the programme. Charlie, they've
:05:22. > :05:26.been using food stamps suns the '60s in the States and at the
:05:26. > :05:30.beginning in particular, they were regarded as a huge benefit for the
:05:30. > :05:34.poor -- since the '60s? I remember them coming in, my father was a
:05:34. > :05:39.green grocer. One of the problems though is even then they were
:05:39. > :05:44.getting frauded, people were selling them on the black market,
:05:44. > :05:48.getting 80 or 90 cent force food stamps. I think it's workable.
:05:48. > :05:51.Instead of the vouchers, I think the credit cards or debit cards,
:05:51. > :05:55.electronic cards, they can be topped up automatically by the
:05:55. > :05:58.government, you don't have to go to the Post Office or wait for a
:05:58. > :06:04.cheque that gets stole enfrom the post, as has happened in the States
:06:04. > :06:09.and it has a level of control. If I have to tighten my belts during the
:06:09. > :06:12.time of austerity, why shouldn't claim ants? Also if the vast
:06:12. > :06:19.majority of people are paying tax and helping those in need, I don't
:06:19. > :06:22.want to see my hard-earned money wasted on booze and cigarettes and
:06:22. > :06:27.pornography, especially pornography. The technology is developing, it
:06:27. > :06:32.could be less shaming perhaps than the old ideas o stamps and
:06:32. > :06:36.vouchers? Key personalisation, that's been a goal in benefits. If
:06:36. > :06:39.we are going to tell people what to spend people on, you have to be
:06:39. > :06:44.careful how you to it. Ideally a shared process where people have
:06:44. > :06:49.explained what they are going to do, not a voucher saying "eat your
:06:49. > :06:53.greens", you know that,'s not a nudge, it's a shove. People knead
:06:53. > :06:55.to feel like them a say. You are famous for going on the record
:06:56. > :06:59.saying people are obese because they are eating the wrong stuff and
:06:59. > :07:04.they should exercise. Wouldn't this reform be doing exactly what you
:07:04. > :07:08.are saying people are too weak to do for themselves? I'm not saying
:07:08. > :07:11.the principle of people using the money better than it may be at the
:07:11. > :07:15.moment is wrong, but if we are talking about public money, does
:07:15. > :07:19.that mean the people who're gambling, pornography or what
:07:19. > :07:25.that's got to do with it I don't know, but anyway, pornography or
:07:25. > :07:28.using it the wrong way, does that mean people who're MPs, people in
:07:28. > :07:32.the BBC, anybody in the same position, should we give them food
:07:32. > :07:37.stamps as well. They are still publicly accountable. But it's the
:07:37. > :07:41.idea that if people are in receipt of welfare... These are people
:07:41. > :07:45.coming for help and if they want it I'm glad to give it but use it for
:07:45. > :07:52.what it was intended for. If I'm paying an MP and giving him
:07:52. > :07:55.expenses, he has to right to deem it fit for whatever purpose. If you
:07:55. > :07:59.are receiving social security, I think that should come in on a card
:07:59. > :08:03.and that should be your money to spend because that was something
:08:03. > :08:07.you have pad into the system to use. It's different when you are older
:08:07. > :08:10.like for a pension? That's something you have paid in for for
:08:10. > :08:20.years. You have a right to that. When you are asking for help, it's
:08:20. > :08:21.
:08:21. > :08:27.the nanny state, but you are helping for nanny to help you in
:08:27. > :08:31.the way that it wants. People have illness or because they can't get
:08:31. > :08:35.jobs, generations are not working and all of a sudden we are saying,
:08:35. > :08:42.you must do this. Where is the indication, by the way, that the
:08:42. > :08:50.majority spend it on drink, alcohol and pornography, I don't know where
:08:50. > :08:55.you got t that one from. It's in the report. I've never found
:08:55. > :08:58.anybody who brings that out, they talk about the economy and lots of
:08:58. > :09:03.things but I've never said anyone saying people on welfare with
:09:03. > :09:06.spending their money on pornography. We need to be careful about the odd
:09:06. > :09:11.extreme cases that can get bigged up. There would be concern if you
:09:11. > :09:14.read a scaremongering story in the paper, but we are talking about
:09:14. > :09:16.people on tight budgets, it's a miserable existence. They are not
:09:16. > :09:20.people who're enjoying the circumstances they are living in
:09:20. > :09:24.and we need to be careful about that. Absolutely right. If they are
:09:24. > :09:30.spending it on food, why would it matter if they are getting a card
:09:30. > :09:34.that they spend on food if they are acting responsibly. If they are not
:09:34. > :09:39.spending it on cigarettes and alcohol, leave pornography out if
:09:39. > :09:45.it upsets you, Derek. It's not upset me at all. If you see people
:09:45. > :09:49.on the street, are you going to give them a �20 note to spend on
:09:49. > :09:55.booze or pornography... You are being told not to give money to
:09:55. > :09:57.beggars, give to it a charity. could buy a meal. The issue is why
:09:57. > :10:07.they're there, the issue is how much money they are getting, the
:10:07. > :10:09.issue is not what they spend it on. As was said here, people live on a
:10:09. > :10:12.terrible existence because they have generations of people that
:10:12. > :10:17.haven't worked. That's the reality and it would be better for the
:10:17. > :10:25.Government to talk about how they can get them into work and get
:10:25. > :10:33.money on their pocket rather than minimise what they've got. If you
:10:33. > :10:39.live under the States under Mr Obama, it's gone from 32 to 47
:10:39. > :10:42.million, risen 50%. What concerns me, on the taxi ride here today, it
:10:42. > :10:46.came up by chance, this guy was talking about all the people in his
:10:46. > :10:49.neighbourhood on benefits who have the biggest TVs and the nicest
:10:49. > :10:54.holidays, so obviously I don't think they are doing as badly as
:10:55. > :10:59.you are making out to be. I'm not saying there are no people that are,
:10:59. > :11:03.but people are gaming the system. Where are these people? I would
:11:03. > :11:07.love to know where they are. I want to bring in a couple of
:11:07. > :11:12.contributors who might help answer that. Neil Cooper, the director of
:11:12. > :11:16.church action on poverty. There are people out there watching who feel
:11:16. > :11:20.there is a problem with scroungers, there are Government campaigns
:11:20. > :11:30.about speeblging up if you know someone claiming when they
:11:30. > :11:34.shouldn't - tsh speaking. I want to challenge the stereotypes that are
:11:34. > :11:38.behind this. The language is so emotive, scroungers and feckless
:11:38. > :11:41.which has already been used on the programme. The vast majority of
:11:41. > :11:47.people on benefits are disabled, sick, they've been made redundant.
:11:47. > :11:51.It's not a problem of their own making. They are under incredible
:11:51. > :11:55.pressure, their lives if they're on work related benefits are not their
:11:55. > :11:58.own already. They have to go and find work, they have to show
:11:58. > :12:03.evidence that they are finding work. If they do voluntary work, they are
:12:04. > :12:07.penalised for that because they are not available for work. We have a
:12:07. > :12:11.streak within society which is incredibly dangerous, I think,
:12:11. > :12:18.which is blaming people for the problems which are not of their own
:12:18. > :12:21.making. I don't see that this is any sort of issue, it's making
:12:21. > :12:25.matters worse. Seany O'Kane who mentors young fathers, we are
:12:25. > :12:29.hearing a lot of people say the idea of food stamp-type controls on
:12:29. > :12:35.welfare is humiliating but I gather you think that there could be
:12:35. > :12:40.positives in it? Well, no. The whole idea of it being positive, no,
:12:40. > :12:44.it's very circumstantial. I would say that it's true there are people
:12:44. > :12:51.who are second, third, fourth generation in this country who've
:12:51. > :12:55.never worked, who have adopted obviously their parents ways and
:12:55. > :13:01.there's been no expectation of them to work. I wouldn't say overall
:13:01. > :13:06.it's positive, no. I would say what we need to look at is the fact that
:13:06. > :13:10.people are already marginalised as it is in society by stigmatising
:13:10. > :13:15.something for them that they've obviously got no control over is
:13:15. > :13:19.making it more difficult and it will lead, I believe, to people
:13:19. > :13:24.trying to find ways of a means in another way if they can.
:13:24. > :13:30.Also, you have got people who are out of work who've been working for
:13:31. > :13:34.years and years to then suddenly rely on the welfare state and then
:13:34. > :13:41.to stigmatise those people, to tell them where they can spend their
:13:41. > :13:45.money and how they can spend their money, it's just not possible. It's
:13:45. > :13:50.not realistic. Thank you very much. Charlie? I don't buy the stigma
:13:50. > :13:53.thing. Maybe it's an American thing. This is a peculiar thing I find
:13:53. > :13:57.about the British is we are all worried about offending people that
:13:57. > :13:59.come to us for help. We should help people but there's a lot of people
:13:59. > :14:04.that get stuck on the benefits system and there are a lot of
:14:04. > :14:09.people that don't know how to use them. People are generations into
:14:09. > :14:13.this. Help them, don't give them money to spend on booze then they
:14:13. > :14:17.are stuck back where they started. It's interesting, didn't the
:14:17. > :14:20.government claim to have identify a hard core of individual who is had
:14:20. > :14:23.endemic issues and that perhaps this is part of a potential
:14:23. > :14:28.solution to break that cycle? were extrapolating from a small
:14:28. > :14:32.number and got a much bigger number. When pushed on the bigger number,
:14:32. > :14:35.we didn't get any evidence on who the 140,000 families were. We are
:14:35. > :14:40.in dangerous territory, but people on small budgets may need help.
:14:40. > :14:45.That is the clear point. What would you stugt, because food stamps is
:14:45. > :14:48.too tough, you say, but some families won't do it for themselves.
:14:48. > :14:58.There's evidence where there's abuse, alcoholism and drug
:14:58. > :15:08.
:15:08. > :15:13.I want to bring in another contributor. Philip Blond is a
:15:13. > :15:19.journalist. He is head of a right of centre think-tank. What is wrong
:15:19. > :15:29.with the idea of having universal credit? In principle they is
:15:29. > :15:31.
:15:31. > :15:37.nothing wrong. I think the idea of targeting benefits should only be
:15:37. > :15:42.for a minority of people. There are people in the benefit system who
:15:42. > :15:46.are very vulnerable and in trouble, drug addicts and alcoholics. One
:15:46. > :15:53.could imagine that those families would benefit from saying, this
:15:53. > :15:57.money is directly for food. The trouble of -- the trouble with the
:15:57. > :16:01.universal credit is that it will go to the head of the household. Some
:16:01. > :16:08.of those families will be in trouble if the head of the family
:16:08. > :16:15.spends it on alcohol and cigarettes. In that sense, targeted benefits
:16:15. > :16:20.would really work. Perhaps it could work on a voluntary basis. But the
:16:20. > :16:26.real key is that if we do these card payments correctly, they can
:16:26. > :16:29.actually function as bank accounts for vulnerable people, a brand new
:16:29. > :16:35.form of financial instrument that will enable the people who do not
:16:35. > :16:42.have bank accounts, 1.5 million people, to have access to a form of
:16:42. > :16:47.credit. It will allow people to be financially included within the
:16:47. > :16:52.system. I know people who are not on benefit where the money going
:16:52. > :16:56.into the house told us not going to looking after the children. The
:16:56. > :17:06.children do not have enough to read. The mother does not get enough
:17:06. > :17:06.
:17:06. > :17:10.money to make sure they are fed. We are scapegoating those on benefits.
:17:10. > :17:17.There are lots of families in this country where the money is not
:17:17. > :17:22.going where it should. This is entirely wrong. This does not help
:17:22. > :17:27.the problem. Instead of money coming in that is made out to the
:17:27. > :17:33.mother, our money that goes into the father's bank account that the
:17:33. > :17:41.mother never sees, here is a way of the person who needs the money
:17:41. > :17:46.getting it. It will go towards the necessities that the family need.
:17:46. > :17:51.If that is the case, it should be for everyone who gets any sort of
:17:51. > :17:58.money from the public purse. You cannot have money and only have
:17:58. > :18:08.food stamps. This is 2012. With the technology, we have the ability to
:18:08. > :18:14.structure it. If it is jobseeker's allowance, yes. In certain areas of
:18:14. > :18:18.social welfare, it should be restricted. Is there not an ethical
:18:18. > :18:24.dilemma of private IT companies making lots of money by
:18:25. > :18:31.administering these schemes? Yes, absolutely. We know that
:18:31. > :18:34.outsourcing can lead to a whole host of problems. Government
:18:34. > :18:44.procurement of private sector services is not a very happy story.
:18:44. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:52.We have to go carefully. I want to bring in some comments from viewers.
:18:52. > :18:58.Martin says, during hard times, why do we always ask questions about
:18:58. > :19:04.the spending habits of the poor? Carroll says, I spend my benefits
:19:04. > :19:10.on food and bills and after that, I have nothing left. Thank you for
:19:10. > :19:14.your contributions. CalMac opinion poll question today is, should we
:19:15. > :19:24.limit what benefit claimants can spend their money on? The details
:19:25. > :19:31.
:19:31. > :19:37.You can vote online by going to our website. There are 20 minutes
:19:37. > :19:41.before the opinion poll closes. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan
:19:41. > :19:47.Williams, said that there were no easy answers to solving ethical
:19:47. > :19:51.issues such as abortion. He said the uncertainty around when life
:19:51. > :19:57.begins leads to difficult questions about whether abortion can be the
:19:57. > :20:00.lesser evil. A row has broken out in the Conservative Party over
:20:00. > :20:10.Jeremy Hunt's comments that he would oppose abortion after 12
:20:10. > :20:15.weeks. Since the Abortion Act of 1967, the termination of a foetus
:20:15. > :20:18.has remained one of the most divisive social issues in Britain.
:20:18. > :20:23.Now the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has told a newspaper that he
:20:23. > :20:29.personally backs a 12 week abortion limit. The new women's minister
:20:29. > :20:39.says that she would like to see the limit Lord from 24 to 20 weeks. She
:20:39. > :20:40.
:20:40. > :20:45.said she was speaking as a feminist. Pro-life organisations see abortion
:20:45. > :20:48.as evil and the murder of an innocent life. Some disability
:20:48. > :20:54.rights campaigners have challenged the idea that it is a lesser evil
:20:54. > :20:59.to abort foetuses with severe disabilities. With nearly 200,000
:20:59. > :21:04.abortions carried out in England and Wales last year, many social
:21:04. > :21:08.commentators are worried that abortion is viewed by some as a
:21:08. > :21:14.form of contraception. But the Royal College of obstetricians and
:21:14. > :21:17.gynaecologists says there are no medical grounds to reduce the limit.
:21:17. > :21:26.The British Pregnancy Advisory Service says that only 8% of all
:21:26. > :21:33.abortions are carried out after 12 weeks anyway. Is abortion a lesser
:21:33. > :21:38.evil? Is it a form of Tanis or is it time to redraw our boundary off
:21:38. > :21:44.when the termination of an unborn human is acceptable? You can join
:21:44. > :21:48.the conversation at home on Twitter. The details are on the screen.
:21:48. > :21:54.Joining us for this discussion are Dame Ann Leslie, one of the most
:21:54. > :21:59.influential journalists of the last 40 years. She has covered all the
:21:59. > :22:02.presidential elections since Jimmy Carter. We're also joined by
:22:02. > :22:08.Bernadette Smyth, a dedicated feminists.
:22:08. > :22:16.You can remember when abortion was illegal, when the Abortion Act came
:22:16. > :22:20.in in 1967. Have attitudes to abortion got to Cashel? Yes. Let me
:22:20. > :22:25.start by saying that when I was young, I committed a sin against
:22:25. > :22:31.the religion I was born into, Roman Catholicism, and a crime against
:22:31. > :22:41.the state. Not because I had an abortion, but I are ranged
:22:41. > :22:42.
:22:42. > :22:45.abortions for a lot of my friends. I always think of feeling as the
:22:45. > :22:51.abortion capital of the world because it was full of illegal
:22:51. > :22:55.abortion is. I thought I did not need an abortion because I was
:22:55. > :23:02.careful, but it turned out for various reasons that I was
:23:02. > :23:07.infertile. As you get old, you get less dogmatic about things because
:23:07. > :23:13.you have so much experience of life and the oddities of human nature.
:23:13. > :23:23.In terms of where the debate is now, why do you think it is that
:23:23. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:31.people's attitudes are too loose to abortion? I was in favour of the
:23:31. > :23:40.abortion Reform Act under Lord Steel. It had lots of caveat about
:23:40. > :23:45.it. It was not intended to be an alternative to contraception. I
:23:45. > :23:54.feel very uneasy about that but I do not wanted to be abolished. It
:23:55. > :23:57.should not go down to 12 weeks. 20 weeks. Byrne are dead Smith, why do
:23:57. > :24:04.you think there is brand new interest in this and people are
:24:04. > :24:14.speaking about reducing the limits, are the attitudes changing? This is
:24:14. > :24:15.
:24:15. > :24:18.a time for change. We can now see the unborn child through ultrasound.
:24:18. > :24:27.There are brand new three- dimensional scans. As women, we can
:24:27. > :24:32.see our babies, we can see them moving and their features. I think
:24:32. > :24:37.women are more aware that the unborn child is in fact, I growing,
:24:37. > :24:42.living human being that should be protected. Derek Hatton, I was
:24:42. > :24:47.looking at the statistics are round abortions. One third of all
:24:47. > :24:52.abortions now are repeat abortions. Can you see the concerns that the
:24:52. > :25:00.way abortion is being used is causing social concern? I can
:25:00. > :25:05.understand. I do not agree with Bernadette. I can understand her
:25:05. > :25:11.religious perspective. I do not agree with it, but I can understand
:25:11. > :25:15.it. I cannot understand the argument about the limit in the
:25:15. > :25:19.number of weeks. The reasons why women have abortions are many and
:25:19. > :25:26.the only person in the world that should have that choice is the
:25:26. > :25:29.woman. It is her right to choose. She is the one that has got to look
:25:29. > :25:35.after the child and what happens to the child in the future is a result
:25:35. > :25:43.of that. I have to struggle with this. It is part of the culture
:25:43. > :25:49.wars in America. I went to America and I went to see a abortionists
:25:49. > :25:56.and anti-abortionists. Also, the right-wing religious pastas who
:25:56. > :26:06.Council, for example, a man who has shot an abortionist. Before he was
:26:06. > :26:16.executed, this pastor wind. He was clear, we believe in the death
:26:16. > :26:16.
:26:16. > :26:26.penalty, we are killing killers. Slightly like Bernadette, I sot in
:26:26. > :26:26.
:26:26. > :26:31.the abortion industry, I saw it was very lucrative. They would show me
:26:31. > :26:38.an aborted child, and you cannot then say, a woman has to have
:26:38. > :26:44.control over her own body. A foetus is not her own body. It may not
:26:44. > :26:48.have the same gender or blood group as her. It is something else.
:26:48. > :26:54.Obviously you have to balance the needs of the baby and the needs of
:26:54. > :27:00.the mother. I just want to get a medical view. We are joined by Dr
:27:00. > :27:06.Sarah Chan, a research fellow in bioethics at Manchester University.
:27:06. > :27:11.I understand that there is no medical reason to change the law.
:27:11. > :27:16.Do you think there is? I am not a medical doctor, but I would
:27:16. > :27:20.certainly say there are no good moral reasons to support a
:27:20. > :27:25.reduction in the time limit. If there were to be any change in the
:27:25. > :27:31.law, I think the moral arguments would favour the opposite. In my
:27:31. > :27:38.view, abortion is morally acceptable under most if not all
:27:38. > :27:45.circumstances. I would want to move the time limit downwards. I think
:27:45. > :27:49.this represents a move to restrict women's access to Rajiv -- to
:27:49. > :27:59.reproductive health services. It would deny them control over their
:27:59. > :28:01.
:28:01. > :28:07.own fertility and their own lives. Repeat abortions are not allowing
:28:07. > :28:14.women control. There are other ways, you can get contraception. Having
:28:14. > :28:19.repeat abortions is carelessness. Yes, there are concerns about that,
:28:19. > :28:24.but we need to look at the reasons why women are presenting for these
:28:24. > :28:28.abortions. We need to look at the personal circumstances that lead
:28:28. > :28:34.them to be in that position. I do not think the answer is to deny
:28:34. > :28:40.them access. Dr Trevor Stammers is a lecturer in medical ethics in
:28:40. > :28:45.London. I understand you have always been anti- abortion as a
:28:45. > :28:50.doctor. Why do you think more people are now sharing your view?
:28:50. > :28:55.We have heard some of the reasons and they relate to the ability to
:28:55. > :29:04.visualise the unborn baby and so on. It almost produces bonding with the
:29:04. > :29:10.mother. Attitudes towards disability are fast-changing as
:29:10. > :29:14.well. Although I actually agree with Derek Hatton on this, that the
:29:14. > :29:20.maturity of the foetus is neither here nor there with regard to the
:29:20. > :29:25.moral argument, neither is the 24 week limit as it is currently in
:29:25. > :29:29.place for abortions. It is not relevant when it comes to testing
:29:29. > :29:34.for Down's syndrome. We have heard lots of rubbish in the news about
:29:34. > :29:39.how it would be fact that. The legal situation in this country at
:29:39. > :29:49.the moment is that you can a border Down's syndrome baby one day before
:29:49. > :29:59.
:29:59. > :30:05.it is born. The culture wars over People feel the abortion laws are
:30:05. > :30:08.stigma miezed -- stigmatised. keep saying people are getting more
:30:08. > :30:12.concerned about abortion. I don't know where this comes from, I don't
:30:13. > :30:16.see this or sense that at all. A couple of journalists and MPs
:30:16. > :30:20.decide to make it an issue and all of a sudden it's an issue. In the
:30:20. > :30:24.main, people are not. In the main people accept the fact that of
:30:24. > :30:28.course repeat abortions aren't good but it's no good talking to
:30:28. > :30:33.somebody who's having an abortion saying this is what contraception
:30:33. > :30:35.is, it's too late. I've been campaigning on the streets of
:30:35. > :30:38.Northern Ireland and the World Health Organisation said Ireland is
:30:38. > :30:43.the safest place in the world for women. What we are looking at here,
:30:43. > :30:46.not women who've had problem pregnancies, we are looking at
:30:46. > :30:50.women who may have crisis pregnancies and we need to
:30:50. > :30:54.eliminate that, not destroy the life of an unborn child. We are
:30:54. > :30:58.living in a culture of death where if a young people becomes pregnant,
:30:58. > :31:03.down to the abortion clinic, quick fix. We can see the effects it's
:31:03. > :31:07.having on the women. You do describe yourself as a feminist, I
:31:07. > :31:16.know many women who do say how is it feminist to say we should force
:31:16. > :31:23.teenage girls, rape victims to carry babys to full term or babies
:31:23. > :31:26.of a disability? It's destroying a life. It's the women as well, it's
:31:26. > :31:31.her life and she has to look after that life in the future and that
:31:31. > :31:39.life may be a total problem. We are literally destroying live force the
:31:39. > :31:42.sake of social reasons. 99.9prts of abortions are for social reasons --
:31:42. > :31:47.99.9%. Don't you think there is a touch of religious arrogance with
:31:47. > :31:51.that line. At the end of the day, it's nothing to do with you,
:31:51. > :31:56.nothing to do with you if that young teenage woman who happens to
:31:56. > :32:02.not want a kid, if she wants an abortion, it's up to her and not
:32:02. > :32:05.you. This is very relevant now. I want to bring in Varria Russell
:32:05. > :32:09.White who had an abortion ten years ago. There is a system set up to
:32:09. > :32:15.give you advice, did you feel you made a fully informed choice, was
:32:15. > :32:19.it the lesser evil in your case? my situation, it wasn't a choice
:32:19. > :32:23.for me, it was something that happened because I didn't feel
:32:23. > :32:29.supported in my decision to keep my child. So it wasn't a positive
:32:29. > :32:32.choice for me. Hearing guys from the panel, the guy who is saying
:32:32. > :32:36.that women want to have it as a choice, it's not about choice, we
:32:36. > :32:40.have to realise that there is a life there. I've got three
:32:40. > :32:45.beautiful children and when carrying them, I saw scans of them
:32:45. > :32:49.and I connected and bonded with them right from the stage they were
:32:49. > :32:52.in my womb, so it's not just a blob of tissue, women have a real
:32:52. > :32:56.connection to their babies. Some times the lady is right about
:32:56. > :33:00.social issues which need to be addressed and that's why women go
:33:00. > :33:04.for repeated abortions. We need education around issues. It's
:33:04. > :33:13.interesting we are getting the same view on both sides. Ann? Why I
:33:13. > :33:17.don't want it to be abolished and... I want to establish that as a fact
:33:17. > :33:22.that most abortions are being carried out within 12 weeks. 91%,
:33:22. > :33:27.yes. I want it to come down to 20. When working in America, one
:33:27. > :33:31.familiar of the women's clinic, there were babies of a certain
:33:31. > :33:35.gestational age, they were struggling to keep them alive, they
:33:35. > :33:39.were wanting to keep them alive because the mother wanted them. The
:33:39. > :33:45.next floor, baubs of the same age were being killed off -- babies. I
:33:45. > :33:48.felt that in a way, we've almost overemphasised the mother's choice.
:33:48. > :33:54.It's too different forms of technology isn't it. We'll have to
:33:54. > :34:01.end it there. Sorry about that. can't say the baby is not a baby if
:34:01. > :34:06.you can actually operate on it in the womb. OK. A last line?
:34:06. > :34:10.reality is there is no difference in a baby at 20 weeks and 12 weeks,
:34:10. > :34:14.the only difference is size and development. I happen to agree with
:34:14. > :34:17.that, I understand that. I think it's a terrible religious argument
:34:17. > :34:21.but I understand that. I don't understand the middle ground, it's
:34:21. > :34:25.the woman's right to choose and that's always got to be remembered.
:34:25. > :34:29.We have to leave it there. Thank you all so much. I appreciate
:34:29. > :34:33.everyone's contributions on that one. Coming up. Vote for me - after
:34:33. > :34:35.Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband and now it's David Cameron's turn in the
:34:36. > :34:39.conference political spotlight. From tough on crime to hug a hoodie,
:34:39. > :34:45.the slogans may change, but what kind of leader do we want and what
:34:45. > :34:50.kind of leader to we really need? You can join by webcam or make your
:34:50. > :34:55.views known by phone, e-mail or online.
:34:55. > :35:04.Keep voting also in our poll about welfare benefits and what they
:35:04. > :35:13.should be spent on. You have about five minutes before
:35:13. > :35:17.the poll closes or you can vote online by visiting the website.
:35:17. > :35:20.Time for our moral moments of the week. Ann Leslie, you picked the
:35:20. > :35:26.story about the fri vat school head who says private schools need to
:35:26. > :35:31.target more white working class boys after the skin heads you said
:35:31. > :35:35.-- private school head? In fact, there's been a conference of
:35:35. > :35:43.headmasters and head mistresses of independent schools, I think about
:35:43. > :35:46.250, being held in Belfast. Of course, independent schools have
:35:46. > :35:51.charitable status and they've been told they can't keep that
:35:51. > :35:55.charitable status which has tax implications of course, unless they
:35:55. > :36:01.widen their social intake. The key thing is which groups isn't it are
:36:01. > :36:07.applying? Yes, so they've been trying to widen the intake. The
:36:07. > :36:11.Afro-Caribbeans want to go there - fine, they want the bursaries.
:36:11. > :36:15.Asians particularly, Eastern Europeans. It's the white working
:36:15. > :36:19.class boys. I think that's tragic and very serious for our country
:36:19. > :36:26.that they come from families who don't value education or aspiration.
:36:27. > :36:31.We keep going on about the problem of Asian youths, Jihadists and
:36:31. > :36:35.black youths becoming gangsters. What about the white working class
:36:35. > :36:39.boys who're completely dropping out. Let Derek answer that. You were
:36:39. > :36:44.talking about four generations of family where is perhaps people were
:36:44. > :36:49.still on welfare. Why are there so many aspirational problems? I think
:36:49. > :36:54.over the years there have been all sorts of different reasons for this.
:36:54. > :36:58.I didn't know Ann was going to bring this up, but you are always
:36:58. > :37:04.going to find, you are almost splitting like Asian, blacks...
:37:04. > :37:07.It's about valuing education isn't it? Of course, I haven't got a
:37:07. > :37:10.problem with that. Why is it a perceived problem with white
:37:10. > :37:13.working class boys wanting to achieve in school do you think?
:37:13. > :37:17.think generally or the years there's been a problem about the
:37:17. > :37:21.way in which education's been run, there's always a problem about
:37:21. > :37:27.working class kids achieving whether white, Asian or black.
:37:27. > :37:32.Instead of looking at the education system, they look at the class.
:37:32. > :37:36.It's about the system. I want to bring in Bernie, you chose the
:37:36. > :37:41.story that Facebook are now going to take down anyone putting up
:37:41. > :37:45.tribute pages to criminals and murderers? It's ridiculous how it's
:37:45. > :37:49.invading people's privacy. We are seeing people putting up pages,
:37:49. > :37:52.young girls being abused on Facebook. Last week, a young girl
:37:52. > :37:56.committed suicide because she was being abused and bullied on
:37:56. > :38:01.Facebook. That would concern me greatly. I think the Facebook has
:38:01. > :38:06.lost the plot in a sense. It's not policed enough. Do you think it's a
:38:06. > :38:11.good thing? Yes, I do. I think it's not about freedom of spaech any
:38:12. > :38:16.more, it's abuse of people's rights and basically making fun out of
:38:16. > :38:22.issues like a young person, a baby with cancer, it's funny, you know,
:38:22. > :38:26.it's terrible. Isn't it strange at the same time the Government are
:38:26. > :38:29.talking about agreing with who's controlling Facebook but they are
:38:29. > :38:32.not agreeing to control the media after Leveson. That's being
:38:33. > :38:37.disputed now and Hugh Grant and people leek that are very much
:38:38. > :38:43.looking for control. Exactly. University of Essex looked at 5,000
:38:43. > :38:47.teenagers and found that what make them happy is simple things? Yes, I
:38:47. > :38:50.brought up four kids so I understand a lot of things about
:38:50. > :38:52.parenthood. It's a very difficult time to raise this because of
:38:52. > :38:57.what's happening in Wales but I think unfortunately, too many
:38:57. > :39:02.parents time and time again wrap their kids in cotton wool and don't
:39:02. > :39:06.let them play. Let them express themselves. I mean, you know, all
:39:06. > :39:10.of a sudden, we see something happening in the world and it is
:39:10. > :39:15.horrible in Wales, and straightaway people go, keep our kids in. 2,000
:39:15. > :39:21.people get killed in cars every year, we don't say stop them
:39:21. > :39:26.driving cars. The reality is,, I mean there's more chance winning
:39:26. > :39:33.the lottery twice than a kid getting abducted. Look at that case
:39:33. > :39:37.the other day, the young girl was let out as a treat and she was
:39:37. > :39:40.about ducked. But there's more chance of winning the lottery twice.
:39:40. > :39:43.The Observer today asks teenagers what makes them happy and it's the
:39:43. > :39:46.simple stuff so read it. You have been voting in the poll this
:39:46. > :39:50.morning we hope and the question was: Should we limit what claimants
:39:50. > :39:54.spend benefits on. The poll is closing now so don't text as your
:39:54. > :39:58.vote will not count but you may still be charged. The online vote
:39:58. > :40:03.is closing as well and we'll bring you the results at the end of the
:40:03. > :40:06.programme. In the US, Obama and Romney are
:40:06. > :40:10.battling it out for the US presidency. Here, David Cameron is
:40:10. > :40:13.trying to convince his party and the nation that he's in charge
:40:14. > :40:16.despite all those policy U-turns while the Church of England is
:40:16. > :40:20.starting to choose its next Archbishop of Canterbury. So what
:40:20. > :40:30.sort of leader do we want? Stefan Stern thinks we need to rethink our
:40:30. > :40:33.take on leadership. This is his Sunday Stand.
:40:33. > :40:37.Why do we sale brait so-called tough leaders who never change
:40:37. > :40:42.their mind or change course -- celebrate. We need leaders who are
:40:42. > :40:46.strong enough to say when thur wrong and know when it's right
:40:46. > :40:50.right to do a U-turn -- when they are wrong. 30 years ago, Margaret
:40:50. > :41:00.Thatcher gave a Party Conference still remembered today. You turn if
:41:00. > :41:01.
:41:01. > :41:05.you want to... The lady's not for turning. Mrs T was formidable and
:41:05. > :41:09.brave. But that speech has had a disastrous lasting side effect on
:41:09. > :41:14.would-be leaders. Few people in business or politics ever dare
:41:14. > :41:19.admit Thai changed their mind. can only go one way. I've not got a
:41:19. > :41:26.reverse gear. They plough on, head strong and sometimes head long into
:41:26. > :41:30.disaster. Of course leaders need to be decisive and clear sighted but
:41:30. > :41:35.that doesn't just mean laying down the law and being dogmatic. Never,
:41:35. > :41:38.never, never... Leaders need to listen and sometimes weigh up
:41:38. > :41:44.counterarguments. President George W Bush said that he didn't do
:41:44. > :41:48.nuance. Look how well that worked out. You are only really a leader
:41:48. > :41:52.if you've got followers and it's OK if they admire you rather than fear
:41:52. > :41:57.you. If you are a leader, your work isn't about you, it's about them,
:41:57. > :42:00.so get off your high horse. If anyone tells me they are a leader I
:42:00. > :42:05.always ask them this question - what are you in it for? Are you
:42:05. > :42:09.pushing yourself forward or are you worrying about the future of the
:42:09. > :42:13.whole organisation? We are living in difficult times.
:42:13. > :42:18.We need better leadership. The best leaders know their limitations,
:42:18. > :42:26.admit their weaknesses, listen and yes sometimes change their mind.
:42:26. > :42:32.You turn if you want to, yes boss I think perhaps you should.
:42:32. > :42:37.You can join in my BBC cam or make your point by text, e-mail or phone.
:42:37. > :42:41.We are joined again by Stefan Stern after making that lovely film. Ann,
:42:42. > :42:46.you said at the beginning you saw all the leaders come and go, are
:42:46. > :42:51.you convinced that the uncompromising ones are the best?
:42:51. > :42:58.No, Hitler wasn't compromising and he was certainly a leader who was
:42:58. > :43:02.much-loved by his people until the very last minute. You go for an
:43:02. > :43:07.extreme one. Wa about the closer ones? They sold themselves as great
:43:07. > :43:10.leaders who were going to lead their people to the promised land
:43:10. > :43:15.and unfortunately their people tended to believe them until they
:43:15. > :43:20.learned their lesson. I think that a leader, it depends, if you are
:43:20. > :43:25.talking about CEOs of comaens, they don't have to be voted for --
:43:25. > :43:30.companies. If you are cleaners in some large company and they had a
:43:30. > :43:35.vote, they might not necessarily vote for what the board wanted.
:43:36. > :43:40.Someone like Mrs Thatcher often held up as a strong leader but some
:43:40. > :43:45.people dislike her? He wasn't at the beginning, I have to say, she
:43:45. > :43:51.got the leadership almost by default. The Tory grandees thought,
:43:52. > :43:58.how did we manage to have her?! I went with her to China on her first
:43:58. > :44:04.visit as Leader of the Opposition in early 1977 and I mean, I thought,
:44:04. > :44:09.my God, this, you know, silly little suburban squawker with
:44:09. > :44:19.pussycat bows, I saw her sort out the Chinese. I thought, he's going
:44:19. > :44:29.
:44:29. > :44:39.You were regarded as an uncompromising politician. Thank
:44:39. > :44:39.
:44:39. > :44:44.you. 30,000 people lost their jobs because of the budget deficit?
:44:44. > :44:50.did not think you would go for cheap jibes like that. I thought
:44:50. > :44:56.you would have researched it better. At No 1 lost a single job. We can
:44:56. > :45:02.all be ruthless in what we believe in. That is not a problem, a tease
:45:02. > :45:07.the way that you perform leadership. I remember the day after we took
:45:07. > :45:13.control when 1983. One of the personnel officers whispered,
:45:13. > :45:23.remember, you are now chairman of a board that employs 30,000 people.
:45:23. > :45:23.
:45:23. > :45:28.Then the reality of how you manage hits you. You have got to delegate.
:45:28. > :45:33.Journalists laughed praising leaders. Well done, you took a
:45:33. > :45:38.strong decision. Very often these decisions are taken as a result of
:45:38. > :45:43.them being bad managers in the first place. If they were better
:45:43. > :45:49.managers they would not have had to make that strong decision. We had a
:45:49. > :45:56.little video of Winston Churchill at the start of that. What happened
:45:56. > :46:06.at the end of the First World -- at the end of the Second World War, he
:46:06. > :46:06.
:46:06. > :46:12.was kicked out by claimant Attlee. People did not want his leadership.
:46:12. > :46:22.-- by at least. If you are a politician, you have to go for
:46:22. > :46:23.
:46:23. > :46:33.boards. -- thought. You have to go with gut instinct. I am not against
:46:33. > :46:38.
:46:38. > :46:44.gut instinct. I always remember a wonderful, literary, intelligent
:46:44. > :46:51.man. Lots of us wanted him to become president. He tried
:46:51. > :46:57.unsuccessfully. Someone in his audience said, you have every
:46:57. > :47:06.thinking American behind you. He said, that is not enough, I need a
:47:06. > :47:10.majority. Most people are like the political leaders on gut instinct.
:47:10. > :47:17.People who over intellectualise, I think that is President Obama's
:47:18. > :47:23.problem, they lose the feeling from the people. We do not do religion.
:47:23. > :47:28.At least Americans are honest about that. Moses was a great religious
:47:28. > :47:34.leader in the Bible. Is that why we have difficulties working out why
:47:34. > :47:39.week -- what sort of leader we want in Britain? I think we want our
:47:39. > :47:49.leaders to speak plain English. It has got to resonate with normal
:47:49. > :47:49.
:47:49. > :47:58.people. I also think the reaction from the media in general, they
:47:58. > :48:05.love this. Over the last 20 years, I always remember when Roy Keane
:48:05. > :48:10.was kicked out of the Irish squad by Mick McCarthy. It reminds me of
:48:10. > :48:17.Kevin Pietersen now. The press say, Well done, that was a strong
:48:17. > :48:22.decision from the cricket board. We have forgotten that somewhere along
:48:22. > :48:27.the line, the management has been wrong before that. If you have
:48:27. > :48:31.gold-dust like that in your team, you would deal with them
:48:31. > :48:37.differently. I want to bring in a professor at University College
:48:37. > :48:41.London. You were saying that people look to the world of sport or a
:48:41. > :48:47.business management for leadership? Is emotional intelligence
:48:47. > :48:54.important? I think it is very important. It is a brand new term
:48:54. > :48:59.for an old concept. We used to collect social skills. It relates
:48:59. > :49:03.to the ability to perceive other people's emotions. You can see how
:49:03. > :49:09.brilliant President Obama is in his speeches, his ability to move
:49:09. > :49:13.people emotionally. The question is whether he can do that One 2 One,
:49:13. > :49:21.or in groups, whether he can persuade other people in the same
:49:21. > :49:25.way. We know that there are a number of characteristics
:49:25. > :49:32.associated with successful leaders. They have to be resilient and cope
:49:32. > :49:37.with stress. We know they have to be conscientious. But the one that
:49:37. > :49:47.is most interesting, literature says that this agreeableness is
:49:47. > :49:57.
:49:57. > :50:06.associated with successful leaders. --disagreeableness. Leaders have to
:50:06. > :50:12.take hard decisions and confront individuals. Thank you. We were
:50:12. > :50:18.speaking about leaders from the past. The younger people today want
:50:18. > :50:24.tough leaders? Steve Jobs was a big icon too many when he led Apple. He
:50:24. > :50:32.was not particularly emotional intelligence, he was pretty tough.
:50:32. > :50:35.Good morning. I think Steve Jobs come -- created an amazing
:50:35. > :50:41.following for his products throughout the world, but I am not
:50:42. > :50:45.sure that he had that following in his organisation. Leadership is
:50:45. > :50:51.changing throughout the world. People are more connected to the
:50:51. > :50:55.internet, they have more choice and information. Leaders are being
:50:55. > :51:01.watched and scrutinised and challenge that every turned. I
:51:01. > :51:05.think that expectations of leadership have increased. People
:51:05. > :51:10.do not want to be ordered about and told what to do, they want to be
:51:10. > :51:16.inspired. Did people not just want to know where they stand? They want
:51:17. > :51:24.to get on with things? People speak about Margaret Thatcher. I know
:51:24. > :51:28.people dislike her, but some people speak about her with warm memories.
:51:28. > :51:33.Purposes very important, clarity, setting out your stall and sticking
:51:33. > :51:39.to it. But not sticking to it in the face if anything, that is the
:51:39. > :51:44.point. Was Mrs Thatcher brought down? There have been very few
:51:44. > :51:49.women leaders. There is an argument that Margaret Thatcher was brought
:51:49. > :51:55.down by macho elements within her party. Yes, gentle men who could
:51:55. > :52:04.not stand her. She flirted with the many great deal. She was very good
:52:04. > :52:14.at it. She flirted with my husband. People speak about leaders needing
:52:14. > :52:19.vision. I have interviewed George Bush and the second George Bush.
:52:19. > :52:26.The first George Bush, who was only a one-term president, he said, the
:52:26. > :52:31.trouble is, I do not have the vision, he was much more managerial.
:52:31. > :52:39.Whether you like or approve of George W Bush, as he did not really
:52:39. > :52:45.have the vision thing. He had massive charm, and he was actually
:52:45. > :52:51.much cleverer than we over here as soon. I just get very worried about
:52:51. > :52:58.politicians now. When I was young, if a politician said, this is my
:52:58. > :53:03.vision, I would say, go away. These are ridiculous, or old-fashioned
:53:03. > :53:08.concepts which on the whole mean nothing. The public are much more
:53:08. > :53:14.cynical, so it is very hard for leaders. There is a great line in
:53:14. > :53:23.the Observer, it says, authenticity is everything. Once you can fake
:53:23. > :53:30.that, you're sorted. We see what goes on in other countries. It is
:53:30. > :53:35.very difficult. In the past, people would only see one way of operating
:53:35. > :53:39.and they would accept it. But now it makes them think. We need a
:53:39. > :53:45.different form of leadership, leadership that does not only
:53:45. > :53:50.delegate but takes people along with it. Lara Morgan is a
:53:50. > :53:56.businesswoman and a leader of her own company. Being a female boss is
:53:56. > :54:01.still regarded as a curiosity. What are you lessons on leadership?
:54:01. > :54:07.would hate to be thought off as a curiosity. We have not brought you
:54:07. > :54:13.on that way, but sometimes people speak about business women that way.
:54:13. > :54:20.People speak about aggressiveness, but leadership is actually about
:54:20. > :54:25.assertiveness. You cannot be fixed, you have to listen to the customer
:54:25. > :54:33.and admit when you have made a mistake. Business is about learning
:54:33. > :54:40.from mistakes, that is how people make their money. The ability to
:54:41. > :54:45.admit assault following feedback makes for added process. Thank you.
:54:45. > :54:49.Is there anything you would have done differently in your approach
:54:49. > :54:59.when you were a big political figure? I do not think there is
:54:59. > :55:05.anything I would have done differently. Thank you very much.
:55:05. > :55:09.One viewer says, dogmatic also tends to be bullying. Another
:55:09. > :55:15.viewer says, I find that having the ability to admit weakness and
:55:15. > :55:20.failure makes you stronger in the long run. How can you be right if
:55:20. > :55:26.you refuse to admit you were wrong? Are you passionate about a topic
:55:26. > :55:30.and keen to share your views? Just like our weekly Sunday Stand film
:55:30. > :55:35.where one of our panellists records there are few, we would like to
:55:35. > :55:41.invite you to submit your own film. It should not be longer than one
:55:41. > :55:47.minute. We have placed instructions for how you can submit your own
:55:47. > :55:57.film on our website. We look forward to being your work and
:55:57. > :55:58.
:55:58. > :56:03.hearing your views. You're online poll vote Sarin. We
:56:03. > :56:13.ask, should we limit what claimants spend their benefits on? He is what
:56:13. > :56:13.
:56:13. > :56:21.you said. 62 % said that yes, we should. 38 % said no. The figures
:56:21. > :56:29.are broadly representative of others to it -- broadly
:56:29. > :56:37.representative of other similar research. What is a rear view? --
:56:37. > :56:45.or what is your view? For I hope that this could be done on an
:56:45. > :56:49.agreed basis, not just imposed by the state. I think he is right.
:56:49. > :56:54.Because of the economic climate, people are going to react like that.
:56:54. > :56:59.But if they had not been asked the question, they would not have
:56:59. > :57:08.thought of it. It is not an issue. People are more concerned about
:57:08. > :57:13.their jobs, what sort of money they are getting. They are not worried
:57:13. > :57:18.about whether someone else spends their money on pornography or food.
:57:18. > :57:21.The strongest opponents of unbridled welfare tend to be poor,
:57:21. > :57:31.working-class people who are living in a place where they are working
:57:31. > :57:32.
:57:33. > :57:36.very hard, they are paying higher taxes, and they have a neighbour
:57:36. > :57:41.who is living the high life. They are not working or looking after
:57:41. > :57:47.their own children. They are not paying the mortgage are paying
:57:47. > :57:56.their council tax because it is all paid for by the state. The very
:57:56. > :58:01.briefly. People like me, we are not terribly bothered. We have to leave
:58:01. > :58:09.it there. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone who has taken part,