:00:12. > :00:16.This week, the new Justice Secretary called for prisons to get
:00:16. > :00:26.tough with inmates. With one of the highest and most overcrowded jail
:00:26. > :00:43.
:00:43. > :00:47.populations in Europe, do it Good morning. Welcome. This week,
:00:47. > :00:51.the new Justice Secretary called for prisons to get tough with
:00:51. > :00:58.inmates. Are our prisons rarely the holiday camps they are sometimes
:00:58. > :01:06.made dared to be? With revelations in the Jimmy Savile case touring a
:01:06. > :01:12.worrying spotlight uncle Chet in the 70s and 80s, do we need female
:01:12. > :01:18.quotas? Things have gone too far at work. There has been a huge
:01:18. > :01:25.cultural shift. Women have become empowered. Some women still lose
:01:25. > :01:33.sympathy by taking offence at the slightest bit of banter. The short-
:01:33. > :01:40.term cash loans company are sponsoring Newcastle. Is it morally
:01:40. > :01:45.right to promote such companies? Julie Bindel is a writer, feminist
:01:45. > :01:55.and co-founder of the group, Justice for Women. David Dance is
:01:55. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:06.an economist and businessman. -- Vance. Don Macintyre is an
:02:06. > :02:14.investigative reporter. We want to know what he's think. Call-in have
:02:14. > :02:19.to challenge our guests. -- what you think. Calls from mobiles may
:02:19. > :02:27.cost considerably more. Texts will be charged at your standard message
:02:27. > :02:31.rate. At the Conservative Party Conference this week, the new
:02:31. > :02:35.Justice Secretary promised to put punishment for repeat offenders
:02:35. > :02:43.back at the heart of the criminal justice system. With prisons
:02:43. > :02:47.overcrowded, she could jail conditions be made harder? --
:02:47. > :02:53.should jail conditions? Chris Grayling says it is time to get
:02:53. > :02:59.much tougher on criminals. If you commit two serious violent or
:02:59. > :03:03.sexual offences, you will get an automatic life sentence. He pledged
:03:03. > :03:08.to stop chairs being like holiday camps for inmates. He said that
:03:08. > :03:11.prisons are not tough enough. Some other politician share that view.
:03:11. > :03:18.Lord Justice Davies was appalled that to British prisoners complain
:03:18. > :03:22.that having to slop out in cells was demeaning and infringed human
:03:22. > :03:26.rights. Does last month the Daily Telegraph reported that ministers
:03:26. > :03:34.admitted nearly 3000 prisoners were eligible to access subscription
:03:34. > :03:38.channels provided by Sky. Games consoles, gym facilities and free
:03:38. > :03:42.education are all provided in some prisons. Privileges can motivate
:03:43. > :03:48.good behaviour and can be taken away. Defenders of the system argue
:03:48. > :03:56.that by going to jail, both your loved ones and independence are
:03:56. > :04:01.taken away. -- and the more we treat people as such, the more
:04:01. > :04:06.likely they are to come out angry and more likely to reoffend. Should
:04:06. > :04:10.they be places of rehabilitation or should we get tougher on criminals
:04:10. > :04:16.and make prison have feared institution it once was? Should
:04:16. > :04:23.prisons be tougher? Absolutely not. They are horrific already. Prisoner
:04:24. > :04:28.should, of course, have television, three meals a day, human rights and
:04:28. > :04:32.basic education. If we do not do this, prisoners will come out angry
:04:32. > :04:37.and the violence, abuse and disruption within the prisons will
:04:37. > :04:47.be far more serious than it is already. Should we make our prisons
:04:47. > :04:56.
:04:56. > :05:01.You can also vote online on the website. We will show how you voted
:05:01. > :05:08.at the end of the programme. We still have things like slopping out.
:05:08. > :05:13.You cannot say that is not tough, can you? In the first instance,
:05:13. > :05:18.prisons are most definitely not tough. We have just seen a
:05:18. > :05:22.wonderful gymnasium facilities. Prisoners are being given access to
:05:22. > :05:27.education facilities. What we have done is lost track of the central
:05:27. > :05:32.point of prison. Essential point of prison, to my mind, his punishment
:05:32. > :05:38.for those who wilfully choose to commit a crime, break the law and
:05:38. > :05:41.are sentenced under due process to go to a prison. They should not
:05:41. > :05:47.have the indulgences we have seen over the last few decades of
:05:47. > :05:51.liberal intervention. It is very timely we deal with the issue of
:05:51. > :05:58.making prisons tough. They should be places to which no one ever
:05:58. > :06:07.wants to go in the first instance and no one ever wants to go back to.
:06:07. > :06:13.That is an interesting point. the prison Revolution started, in
:06:14. > :06:18.Victorian times, it was about rehabilitation. Now it is about
:06:18. > :06:26.punishment and rehabilitation. Talking to prisoners in prisons at
:06:26. > :06:33.the moment, they talk about it being a tinderbox and the risks of
:06:33. > :06:39.riot. They are tender boxes. There are suicides, abuse and violence.
:06:39. > :06:48.There are not enough staff. We owe it to our cells to try to
:06:48. > :06:55.rehabilitate and educate. I do not believe we do. -- ourselves. We
:06:55. > :07:00.have put their knees before those of victims. -- their needs. I do
:07:00. > :07:04.not feel it is appropriate that tax payers should be funding their
:07:04. > :07:12.requirements in terms of plasma screen televisions and all the rest
:07:12. > :07:17.of it. Those stories are happening. I have just been over to Florida
:07:17. > :07:21.and doing some research on death row. People are very aggrieved that
:07:21. > :07:26.prisoners on death row are given three meals a day. We hear this in
:07:26. > :07:32.the UK where we do not have the death penalty. The way you are
:07:32. > :07:37.talking, it is as there when someone commits a crime, many women
:07:37. > :07:41.are in prisons for non-violent crimes - none serious crimes. It is
:07:41. > :07:48.as though, what we need to do is to strip every single piece of
:07:48. > :07:53.humanity away. These human beings need to be distracted and educated.
:07:53. > :07:58.Often they have had no education. If you look at the prison
:07:58. > :08:02.population, offer may have had the most horrific backgrounds. We have
:08:02. > :08:09.to address that the offending behaviour but we must not strip
:08:09. > :08:15.away humanity and further punish them. Many of these prisoners will
:08:15. > :08:20.go back had been society. Therein lies the hub of the argument. The
:08:20. > :08:25.fact that so many people going to prison, go out, go back in again,
:08:25. > :08:30.demonstrates what we have does not work. It demonstrates they clearly
:08:30. > :08:36.have no fear of prison. Prison should not be a destination that
:08:36. > :08:42.they ever want to go to. That remains, I think, a concern for
:08:42. > :08:46.many people throughout the UK. original point was your concern
:08:46. > :08:52.that the victims of crime are being treated less well than the
:08:52. > :08:55.perpetrators of crime. Having been a victim and had to put guys in
:08:55. > :09:00.jail, I am hugely sensitive to the fact that victims are not being
:09:01. > :09:06.looked after. It has to be a separate argument. Victims of crime
:09:06. > :09:11.are not looked after sufficiently. It does not mean we dehumanise all
:09:11. > :09:15.genuine principles. If you let people out within six months, 12
:09:15. > :09:23.months of going in, you are letting down the victims of crime. There is
:09:23. > :09:28.a logical continuum between them requirements and those of prison.
:09:28. > :09:38.lot of kids have been so brutalised that they do not care if they live
:09:38. > :09:39.
:09:39. > :09:49.or die. You only live once, this is the way a lot of these guys live.
:09:49. > :09:49.
:09:49. > :09:55.Prison will never be a deterrent. Can I say, Lord Ramsbottom was the
:09:55. > :09:59.chief inspector of prisons. We have spoken this week to victims who
:09:59. > :10:05.feel the prison system lets them down. They see people who murdered
:10:05. > :10:10.loved ones, having plasma televisions, mobile phones and
:10:10. > :10:16.having access to a gym. What about the idea that we need to make it
:10:16. > :10:21.tougher? Prison is punishment and it is punishment awarded for an
:10:21. > :10:29.offence. It is very important that the people who receive punishment
:10:29. > :10:33.are kept awake so that the public is protected from them. -- away.
:10:33. > :10:37.Virtually everyone is going to come out again. What prisons have to do
:10:37. > :10:42.is do everything they possibly can to make certain that when they come
:10:42. > :10:47.out, they do not do it again. Should they have television
:10:48. > :10:52.packages where they can watch all the sports matches? Is that
:10:52. > :10:56.rehabilitation? There is a perception there are too many home
:10:56. > :11:02.comforts and not enough rehabilitation. Absolutely right.
:11:02. > :11:06.There is not enough rehabilitation. This is one of the problems.
:11:06. > :11:10.Hospitals are the acute part in the health service where people go for
:11:10. > :11:15.treatment. You only go there if you need that treatment. Prisons are
:11:15. > :11:19.the acute part of the justice system. You should only go there if
:11:19. > :11:23.you need the treatment they give, which means keeping the protection
:11:23. > :11:30.of the public at heart. If you crowd the prisons with far too many
:11:30. > :11:34.people, it isn't possible to do the rehabilitation. You saying we
:11:34. > :11:41.should lock-up fewer people? Those we lock up, we should do more work
:11:41. > :11:44.with? Of course. I would much rather that prisoners had a fall,
:11:44. > :11:48.purpose full and active day, where the day was spent teaching them to
:11:48. > :11:51.live a more law-abiding life when they come out. That is not
:11:51. > :11:56.happening because prisons are crowded with masses of people who
:11:56. > :12:02.should not be in prison, with the result but limited resources cannot
:12:02. > :12:08.do what should be done. Thank you so much. I want to bring in Mark
:12:08. > :12:15.Williams as well. He is very relevant to our discussion. You are
:12:15. > :12:20.an X offender. What made you stop offending? I went in prison about
:12:21. > :12:30.five times on different occasions. What stopped me from defending his
:12:30. > :12:38.bat, in the course of me coming out, I worked in a few charities. --
:12:38. > :12:44.from off fending is that. It was that kind of process that helped me
:12:44. > :12:51.changed a lot of my behaviour. you are honest, which you say there
:12:51. > :13:00.are times when you thought this is quite cushy? I have never thought
:13:01. > :13:06.prison was a sheep. It is a tough place. -- was cushy. You meet a
:13:06. > :13:15.violent criminals. All kinds of people. You have to deal with the
:13:15. > :13:20.bureaucracy of the prison. It is a tough place. I do agreed with the
:13:20. > :13:28.comment about it being a structured place. I've tried to find some kind
:13:28. > :13:35.of structure. When I came out it meant I had something to provide.
:13:35. > :13:40.want to also bring in Jean Taylor. He founded families fighting for
:13:40. > :13:44.justice and you'd want tougher sentences. Have you lost -- you
:13:44. > :13:50.have lost members of your family through violent homicides. How do
:13:50. > :13:58.you feel? In this country, there is no deterrent for those who commit
:13:58. > :14:04.serious crimes. We need to get have. We need to put the deterrent that.
:14:05. > :14:10.With that deterrent coming back and getting tough on crime, with the
:14:10. > :14:16.most serious crimes, only then will respect comeback. Regarding prisons
:14:16. > :14:24.in this country, they are like three-star hotels. The more serious
:14:24. > :14:29.your crime going into prison, the better your facilities will be. You
:14:29. > :14:35.can have curtains to match your bedding. You can have a television
:14:35. > :14:39.in your room. You have had freedom taken away but that is not enough.
:14:39. > :14:46.Prisons must be seen as a place of punishment and some where you would
:14:46. > :14:52.not want to go back into. This is how people feel who have lost loved
:14:52. > :14:57.ones. That is right. I have interviewed her. Her story is
:14:57. > :15:01.tragic. My heart goes out to all victims of serious crime. I had
:15:01. > :15:06.interviewed people in prisons and they are not three-star hotels.
:15:06. > :15:12.These places are brutal. People do not get out of their cell for more
:15:12. > :15:17.than three hours a day. I take the point that the more serious your
:15:17. > :15:21.offence, the more comfortable it is. That is absolutely right. I do not
:15:21. > :15:25.think that having a matching bedspread with curtains would
:15:25. > :15:35.necessarily encourage you to go back into prison, up or not deter
:15:35. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:43.David what is your view? They are more like four-star hotels. I agree
:15:43. > :15:46.with what Jean said. Prison is about punishment and until we do
:15:46. > :15:51.that, we are going to have overcrowded prisons because frankly
:15:51. > :15:55.criminals are quite happy to go back and as to the argument that
:15:55. > :15:58.our prisons are overcrowded and overflowing. There is an easy
:15:58. > :16:03.solution to that - just build bigger prison.
:16:03. > :16:06.I want to bring in Philip Davis MP. I heard these discussions with MPs
:16:06. > :16:10.about we mead to make prisons tougher and we have a situation
:16:10. > :16:13.with overcrowding. I understand you have done research into the prison
:16:13. > :16:18.system, but where is the evidence that getting tougher will make them
:16:18. > :16:23.work and how do you get around the issue of overcrowding. Is America a
:16:23. > :16:27.model for us? We have been here before and I went with Julie to
:16:27. > :16:31.Florida to visit Death Row and the prison system there and it is a
:16:31. > :16:35.tougher regime than in the UK, that is for certain. Prisons should be a
:16:35. > :16:41.punishment, David is right. We have lost sight of that to a certain
:16:41. > :16:47.extent, but we should rehabilitate people while in prison. This idea
:16:47. > :16:53.that you are for punishment or for rehabilitation, it is a false
:16:53. > :16:59.argument. We have got to rehabilitate people, people like
:16:59. > :17:08.Lord Ramsbotham and Julie duck the question when Sky TV is brought up.
:17:08. > :17:11.3,000 prisoners have got Sky Sky TV. How does that anything to
:17:11. > :17:16.rehabilitate people? My constituents would love to have Sky
:17:16. > :17:20.TV. It can not be right that people in prison have a better regime than
:17:20. > :17:24.they do on the outside and the problem we have prison inspectors,
:17:24. > :17:29.people like Lord Ramsbotham, they come in from their countryside
:17:29. > :17:32.mansions and go into prison and say, "It is jolly awful in here, isn't
:17:32. > :17:37.it?" Compared to their five bedroomed mansions in the
:17:37. > :17:45.countryside, it is awful, but cleared to the crim ridden estates
:17:45. > :17:50.that many people come from, prison is easy. Just one final. Briefly.
:17:50. > :17:53.police custody sergeant said, the biggest deterrent to people people
:17:53. > :18:02.committing was the prospect of going to prison for the the first
:18:02. > :18:05.time. People were afraid of that, but once they saw how curby it was
:18:05. > :18:09.-- cushy it was, it wasn't a deterrent.
:18:09. > :18:18.This comes up at the time of political conferences and when Tony
:18:18. > :18:21.Blair, when he was the Shadow Justice Minister in the 1990s to
:18:21. > :18:30.today you, you always know these arguments and the sad thing is this
:18:30. > :18:35.is not the time to have a debate. To rev up the party faithful, it
:18:36. > :18:42.requires more thoughtful thinking. Briefly, some of your views, Helen,
:18:42. > :18:46."Many prisoners are victims in many ways." Emsays, "Why do we offer
:18:46. > :18:51.privilege to those who are depriving of their Human Rights.".
:18:51. > :18:57.Another viewer says "prisoners should not live better on the
:18:57. > :19:00.inside than on the out." Our text number is:
:19:00. > :19:10.Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Or you can
:19:10. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:19.You have 20 minutes before the poll The ongoing revelations that Jimmy
:19:20. > :19:28.Savile and other powerful men in the 70s and 80s sexually abused
:19:28. > :19:31.under-age girls has thrown a spotlight. What lessons can we
:19:31. > :19:38.learn from the past and have attitudes towards him and behaviour
:19:38. > :19:48.at work changed for the better today? What quotas allow more women
:19:48. > :19:49.
:19:49. > :19:54.to rise to the top. Angela Epstein reports.
:19:54. > :20:01.For past generations things have gone too far at work. But that's
:20:01. > :20:05.not the case. Women have have become empowered by performance.
:20:05. > :20:11.Some women lose grounds for sympathy by taking offence at the
:20:11. > :20:15.slightest bit of banter. In an age where girls outperform
:20:15. > :20:19.boys at school and where women made their mark in all areas of
:20:19. > :20:24.professional life, surely we have achieved too much to be rattled by
:20:24. > :20:30.some boyish builder making play at the top of his scaffolding or some
:20:30. > :20:34.male boss making some light sexual comment. Yet it amazes me that the
:20:34. > :20:38.same feminist detractors have so little to say about the sexism of
:20:38. > :20:45.women only quotas and female shortlist, the bigoted notion this
:20:45. > :20:51.for women to be fairly represented in the highest etch Londons of
:20:51. > :21:01.business and -- echelons of business and finance.
:21:01. > :21:01.
:21:01. > :21:09.This sex sexism is is endemic. If we are going to talk about equality,
:21:09. > :21:14.let's judge each other as equals. I want to get a job on my own
:21:14. > :21:18.merits. A fewer than a third of the most senior jobs in Britain are
:21:18. > :21:22.held by women. Many there aren't enough women to fill them. Some
:21:22. > :21:28.women get distracted by family commitments or having children and
:21:28. > :21:31.want to work part-time. Today's women are treated equally in the
:21:31. > :21:37.workplace. They are respected for the work they do and the results
:21:37. > :21:41.they achieve. Implementing quotas and shortlist would set us apart as
:21:41. > :21:50.a group of second-class citizens who need to be treated differently
:21:50. > :21:54.in order to succeed. If we are the fairer sex, treat us fairly.
:21:54. > :21:59.Otherwise, our gender will be the biggest handicap of all.
:21:59. > :22:02.If you have a webcam, you can make your point on Skype or join in the
:22:02. > :22:11.conversation on Twitter. The details are on the screen. We are
:22:11. > :22:15.joined by the journalist and broadcaster Angela Epstein, Julie
:22:15. > :22:20.Bindel, she is right, who wants to be there as the token woman? What
:22:20. > :22:24.is interesting about the idea of quotas and all women shortlist,
:22:24. > :22:29.neither the left or the right like it. Neither men nor women like it.
:22:29. > :22:34.What I would say as a feminist, we have come out of 200 years of all
:22:34. > :22:39.male quotas really where you know, culturally in the workplace it is
:22:39. > :22:42.almost impossible to change the the culture, to change the dynamic and
:22:42. > :22:46.to get women in that culture so they can role model younger women
:22:46. > :22:49.who come up behind them. If you don't have female management then
:22:49. > :22:53.what you have is a sexist assumption that women are not as
:22:53. > :22:57.easy to employ as as men because of pregnancy, maternity leave,
:22:57. > :23:02.etcetera and therefore, nothing will change. So I reluctantly
:23:02. > :23:06.support the idea of quotas for women because I think that until we
:23:06. > :23:12.get more women in the workplace where they have been excluded,
:23:12. > :23:18.nothing will ever change and it will stay a boys club which leads
:23:18. > :23:22.to awful power dynamics and sexual harassment which is still rife.
:23:22. > :23:27.Where are all the executives now? These are women that were coming up
:23:27. > :23:32.the career ladder in the 7 os and 80s and a lot quit because it was
:23:32. > :23:37.not worth staying in there? I don't agree. If you are focused and women
:23:37. > :23:41.can be focused about the things they want. We are wired to multi-
:23:41. > :23:45.task. The fact is that we are good at focusing on what we need to do
:23:46. > :23:50.and what we want to do and all the more so in the 70s if they have got
:23:50. > :23:53.themselves into a junior executive position when things were working
:23:53. > :23:57.against them then they are going to be all the more determined to
:23:58. > :24:01.achieve what they want to achieve. What I was going to say. This idea
:24:01. > :24:04.if we have more women at the top they will be in some kind of
:24:04. > :24:09.educational position. It doesn't matter if there are women in the
:24:09. > :24:12.workplace or not, men are surrounded by women having babies
:24:12. > :24:16.and taking time off and they are attuned to the idea that women are
:24:16. > :24:20.made that way. So I don't think we necessarily need the tokenism of
:24:20. > :24:25.women at the top in order to make it easier for other women to come
:24:25. > :24:29.through. I would rail against the idea that I'm only where I am or I
:24:29. > :24:33.have got where I wanted to go to because there was no amenable
:24:33. > :24:43.female boss at the top who thought "well, she wears a skirt, we will
:24:43. > :24:45.
:24:45. > :24:49.let her have a leg leg up the career ladder." Women were thwarted
:24:49. > :24:53.by sexism and inappropriate behaviour and Jimmy Savile...
:24:53. > :25:00.mean they quit because of that? course. I am with you as we both
:25:00. > :25:03.are. We are against quotas for quotas sake and in America,
:25:03. > :25:08.positive discrimination, that school of thought is ebbing away.
:25:08. > :25:12.It was affirmtive action and they don't have quotas and it is
:25:12. > :25:22.misunderstood here. In broadcasting, it moved on and it
:25:22. > :25:26.is a female dominated industry. Female dominated is a der a
:25:26. > :25:29.derogatory term. I am making the point that women
:25:29. > :25:33.have achieved the right for potential and they are better
:25:33. > :25:38.communicators. There are certain sectors like in medicine,
:25:38. > :25:41.particularly in financial markets where they should look at quotas
:25:41. > :25:48.because they are areas where sexism is rife and some of the worst of
:25:48. > :25:51.the harassment that have been brought up relating to the Savile
:25:51. > :25:58.issues can be found on the floors of financial markets.
:25:58. > :26:02.You see civil cases that don't always win, but what emerges of the
:26:02. > :26:07.behaviour in the City. In the Police Service and in all
:26:07. > :26:12.the emergency services. If you look back 30 years to the Police Service,
:26:12. > :26:16.it was horrific for women. We talk about racism within the police
:26:16. > :26:22.which of, of course is a problem, but less so now, but we have never
:26:22. > :26:27.heard about the endemic sexism, the the institutionalised sexism in the
:26:27. > :26:36.workplace such as the police. The Jimmy Savile case, where the
:26:36. > :26:41.police listening? Life On Mars, we we nos tal jized the sexism and the
:26:41. > :26:47.flip side is that whole culture in the BBC and in the forces there is
:26:47. > :26:51.a dark side to it too. And it took the racism out of Life On Mars.
:26:51. > :26:56.Siobhan is a quality officer for Unite. It is one of the largest
:26:56. > :26:59.unions in the UK. We have been discussing looking back at the 70s.
:26:59. > :27:03.People feel we have come a long way, do you think the idea of talking
:27:03. > :27:07.about female quotas is necessary now?
:27:07. > :27:12.Well, talking about sexual harassment, it is still prevalent
:27:12. > :27:15.in the workplace and the idea that it went out in the 70s is a myth.
:27:16. > :27:22.As a union, we help women tackle harassment and the best way is if
:27:22. > :27:27.there is a senior management that is prepared to foster a culture of
:27:27. > :27:31.zero tolerance of bullying. If there are women at the top of the
:27:31. > :27:34.company who understand that harassment is bad for business and
:27:35. > :27:39.bad for employees. Businesses should have boards that reflects
:27:39. > :27:42.all the stakeholders, the shareholders and the customers and
:27:42. > :27:48.the employees and if there are women on the board, it brings
:27:48. > :27:52.experience of half the stakeholders so it has to be good for business
:27:52. > :27:55.and it has to be a better environment and a better culture at
:27:55. > :27:59.work. You are trying to promote the right
:27:59. > :28:06.culture to knuckle harassment and harassment is terrible. But the
:28:06. > :28:10.fact is that it also wipes away the ability to have some kind of
:28:10. > :28:13.meritcratic situation where the best person gets the job.
:28:13. > :28:15.No, it doesn't. You have to be employed for your
:28:15. > :28:18.skills because you are appropriate for that job and then you have to
:28:18. > :28:22.rise to the top because you are good. You don't get promoted
:28:22. > :28:28.because you are a woman. That is a myth about quotas. What you have to
:28:28. > :28:32.do... You have to open the door and say, "This time, we are not going
:28:32. > :28:36.to employ a man who has equal merit. We are going to employ a woman."
:28:36. > :28:40.That's what you do... That's discriminating.
:28:40. > :28:44.Where you have industries and public and private sectors that are
:28:44. > :28:47.dominated by men, where that will never change and let's face t we
:28:47. > :28:51.have waited for long enough to see if it changes naturally then you
:28:51. > :28:55.are always going to have the same culture, the same situation and
:28:55. > :29:00.what you suggested Angela in your piece about women who fight and
:29:00. > :29:04.stay in there and we are biologically programmed to multi-
:29:04. > :29:12.task. That's nonsense. I think that working class women, rather than
:29:12. > :29:17.prif lujed women, are the ones that lose out. Yes, you can be at the
:29:17. > :29:20.anyway be ta anyway shus. I went to a school, I was a
:29:20. > :29:24.scholarship girl, I didn't come from a privileged background. The
:29:24. > :29:28.idea was instilled upon us if you could focus on what you wanted, you
:29:28. > :29:32.could achieve what you wanted to have. This was at the end of the
:29:32. > :29:36.70s. There was no question of try and focus on what you want, but you
:29:36. > :29:42.may find somebody that may try and pinch your bottom.
:29:42. > :29:46.Don't learn to type. Many grammar school women told me in the 70s,
:29:46. > :29:50."Don't learn to type." There is an awareness that you are fighting the
:29:50. > :29:54.odds. If you a load of women executives in the BBC in the 70s
:29:54. > :29:58.and 80, are you seriously telling me it would not have made a
:29:58. > :30:03.difference to the culture to which people turned a blind eye? Female
:30:03. > :30:07.executives would have stamped out that. Not every woman can be a
:30:07. > :30:11.Margaret Thatcher and bully their way through and manage. You can
:30:11. > :30:16.rest assure, as the yooU night representative -- Unite
:30:16. > :30:19.representative said and it reflects on big institutions and the
:30:19. > :30:25.Catholic Church when allegations come about sexism and bullying, the
:30:25. > :30:31.one thing the organisation always does and it is its first step is to
:30:31. > :30:34.protect the organisation and HR will protect the individual. So So
:30:34. > :30:38.whistle-blowing is a concern? Whistle-blowing is a factor. You
:30:38. > :30:42.have to protect those who make genuine complaints. You know that
:30:42. > :30:47.pim are afraid -- people are aid frayed in any organisation, from
:30:47. > :30:57.the bank to the police, if they make a complaint, their career is
:30:57. > :31:02.
:31:02. > :31:07.marginalised and they will suffer You had spent 20 years in the Royal
:31:07. > :31:14.Corps of Signals. Were you ever harassed? What is your view on our
:31:14. > :31:21.discussion about quotas? They are an absolute nonsense. Was I ever
:31:21. > :31:28.sexually harassed? No, I was not. I have always thought it was a state
:31:29. > :31:35.of mind. Was I upset by hearing guys talking about women and their
:31:35. > :31:45.attributes? Was I upset by hearing swearing or seeing girlie posters?
:31:45. > :31:50.No, I was not. But, fairly early on, I decided I was not to be messed
:31:51. > :31:57.with. I do remember, up on an adventure training exercise, in the
:31:57. > :32:07.first month when I took over, aware Cup at 2am and banned a man beside
:32:07. > :32:09.
:32:09. > :32:17.me. -- I woke up at 2am and found a man beside me. I just said, get
:32:17. > :32:24.out! A lot of people watching we think we wish you were working at
:32:24. > :32:34.the BBC in the 70s and 80s. If you cry wolf too much over the little
:32:34. > :32:34.
:32:34. > :32:41.stuff Dom let me finish. -- little stuff... It if someone wolf-
:32:41. > :32:46.whistles at me, I am actually flattered by that. I think this
:32:46. > :32:52.whole notion that it is stuff and nonsense and you tell them to go
:32:52. > :32:59.away it is an appalling attitude to take. I have been sexually harassed
:33:00. > :33:08.in the workplace and I'll make tough woman. It nearly destroyed me.
:33:08. > :33:14.-- I am a tough woman. There are dozens and dozens of vulnerable
:33:14. > :33:21.women who do not have that power or fear they will lose their jobs.
:33:21. > :33:26.set up the every day sexism project website. What do you make of the
:33:26. > :33:33.claim that these days anything is misconstrued and you should leave
:33:33. > :33:40.it for the serious stuff - the serious harassment? Women are still
:33:40. > :33:43.experiencing the serious stuff in the workplace. We have received
:33:43. > :33:49.thousands of stories appertaining to experiences in the workplace.
:33:49. > :33:54.They range from what you would consider less important all the way
:33:54. > :33:59.up to stories of sexual assault and raping, similar to the ones we have
:33:59. > :34:04.heard back to the 70s. It is all very well to say one should not cry
:34:04. > :34:10.wolf. It is not just about the reaction of the individual involved.
:34:10. > :34:15.We should not say that women have to put up with things. Women
:34:15. > :34:20.perceive things in different ways. It is about people seeing women in
:34:20. > :34:25.that way. If you say women should accept sexual harassment because it
:34:25. > :34:30.is not a big deal cut what message does that send to the rest of the
:34:30. > :34:40.workplace and the men in the workplace if that is OK? That is a
:34:40. > :34:47.
:34:47. > :34:53.very interesting point of view. Might is an author. -- Mike. She
:34:53. > :35:01.said all the attitudes in the workplace matter. I work in a
:35:01. > :35:07.number of major businesses -- I worked in a number of major
:35:07. > :35:13.businesses for 30 years. I never encountered a single case of a
:35:13. > :35:17.woman taking a case of sexual harassment in the workplace. You do
:35:17. > :35:27.not think they kept it quiet because they were not in an
:35:27. > :35:29.
:35:29. > :35:33.embalmer where they could not talk? I do not think that at all. -- and
:35:33. > :35:39.environment. When more women get on to the boards of companies,
:35:39. > :35:46.performance improves. Academic studies showed that performance
:35:46. > :35:54.declines when women are put on two boards. A lot of research says
:35:54. > :36:02.women do not like working for women. That is absolutely beside the point.
:36:02. > :36:09.We need to look at figures of how many women are in senior positions.
:36:09. > :36:16.There is serious discrimination. Thank God for feminism. When you
:36:16. > :36:20.look now at what was happening in the 70s, 80s and 90s with Jimmy
:36:20. > :36:29.Savile and other men, when you see the fact it is still happening out
:36:29. > :36:34.and women are more able to speak out about it... You cannot compare
:36:34. > :36:41.that to women in the police blog in the bank who are not good enough to
:36:42. > :36:48.get to the top. -- who are in the bank. The idea that men got where
:36:48. > :36:52.they are on their own merit is preposterous. Julie Bindel says
:36:52. > :36:59.nothing will change without quotas but a vast amount has changed and
:36:59. > :37:08.is changing. Is it morally wrong for a short term cash loans company
:37:08. > :37:18.to sponsor football clubs? You can join in on that. Remember to keep
:37:18. > :37:23.
:37:23. > :37:33.voting on our poll. Should we make You have about five minutes before
:37:33. > :37:33.
:37:33. > :37:37.that closes or you can vote online by visiting the website. Time for
:37:37. > :37:42.our moral moments of the week. You have chosen the remarkable
:37:42. > :37:48.uncovering of the Lance Armstrong doping story. It is an
:37:48. > :37:54.extraordinary story. It is explosive for a couple of reasons.
:37:54. > :38:00.There was an extraordinary uphill battle he had as a cancer survivor.
:38:00. > :38:08.He came from moments close, hours to death. He struggled against
:38:08. > :38:12.impossible odds to become the greatest cyclist of all times. In
:38:12. > :38:16.relation to the bullying and the battles he had against journalists
:38:17. > :38:22.and two women in particular who were on the team, who had
:38:22. > :38:26.admissions. He was directly accusing them of being drunk and
:38:26. > :38:32.prostitutes. We can talk about parallels with the Jimmy Savile
:38:32. > :38:38.case. It was a massive bullying conspiracy. Do you think you could
:38:38. > :38:44.have uncovered the Lance Armstrong thing? David Walsh did. Brilliant
:38:44. > :38:48.sports journalists did and they were faced with legal action and
:38:48. > :38:52.threats. In relation to the Jimmy Savile case, the allegations have
:38:52. > :38:58.been placed against the International Cycling Union, who
:38:58. > :39:01.were presiding over it. How much did they know? People said they
:39:01. > :39:07.disclose the information about the extensive doping of Lance Armstrong
:39:07. > :39:14.as early as 2000 and still it was denied. It is about whistle-blowing
:39:14. > :39:20.and bullying. It is the end of the dream. If it looks too good to be
:39:20. > :39:30.true... Jimmy Savile, Lance Armstrong. He was still an amazing
:39:30. > :39:30.
:39:30. > :39:36.cyclist and drugs have destroyed it all. The Tour de France is not easy.
:39:36. > :39:40.It is all being investigated now. You have chosen to Julia Gillard,
:39:40. > :39:46.the Prime Minister of Australia. Let's have a look at what she said
:39:46. > :39:51.in Parliament. I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny
:39:51. > :39:58.by this man. I will not. The Government will not be lectured
:39:58. > :40:03.about sexism and misogyny by this man. Not now. Not ever. The leader
:40:03. > :40:08.of the opposition says that people who hold sexist views and are
:40:08. > :40:14.misogynists are not appropriate for high office. I hope the leader of
:40:14. > :40:19.the opposition has a piece of paper and is writing at his resignation.
:40:19. > :40:24.They say revenge is a dish best served up cold. What did you make
:40:24. > :40:33.of it? This woman is the most inspiring person I have seen in
:40:33. > :40:39.politics to date. Not just ricocheting about Australia. We
:40:39. > :40:43.talk about Australians as their men are more sexist. Men are more crude
:40:43. > :40:48.about women. The examples that have come out with these accusations
:40:48. > :40:54.towards the leader of the opposition. They are appalling.
:40:54. > :40:59.Talking about ditch the bitch! We are as bad. When you look at how
:40:59. > :41:05.Margaret Thatcher was described because she was a woman, that was
:41:05. > :41:12.appalling sexism. Australians have a particular turn of phrase but it
:41:12. > :41:17.is as bad in Westminster with the calm down, dear, that David Cameron
:41:17. > :41:23.said. The you have chosen the remarkable protests that greeted
:41:23. > :41:28.Angela Merkel with people dressing up as Nazis. I was horrified. She
:41:28. > :41:33.returned to Greece to try to thrash out another package of budget cuts.
:41:33. > :41:42.A group of dustbin men decided to register their protests for the
:41:42. > :41:48.continued intervention by Germany as -- by dressing as it Nazis. I
:41:48. > :41:56.have a lot of warmth and empathy for the Greek people. I go there a
:41:56. > :42:01.lot. It is warm and hospital. I say this as a Jewish girl, there is
:42:01. > :42:08.never any grounds for using the not see context for expressing their
:42:08. > :42:13.outrage. The Greeks were brutalised during the Second World War. All
:42:13. > :42:19.the Greek people. They were treated abominably and savagely. It does
:42:19. > :42:28.not give them the right to say we can ace you now with that historic
:42:29. > :42:33.wrong to show at outrage. There is never an excuse for this. -- our
:42:33. > :42:39.outrage. You have been voting this morning on, should we make our
:42:39. > :42:44.prisons tougher? The polls are close now. The online vote is
:42:44. > :42:51.closing as well. We will bring you the result at the end of the show.
:42:51. > :42:55.It is normal for the football teams to have big-name sponsors. Is it
:42:55. > :43:05.different when this onset is one there? They are a short term cash
:43:05. > :43:06.
:43:06. > :43:11.loans company. -- sponsor is Wonga. It is thought to be one of the most
:43:11. > :43:16.controversial deals in history. Is it anything new? Alcohol and
:43:16. > :43:21.gambling firms also sponsor major tournaments and teams and tobacco
:43:21. > :43:29.firms used to. Pay-day lenders have been accused of targeting the most
:43:29. > :43:34.vulnerable and desperate. A 30 day length if not paid off could accrue
:43:34. > :43:39.over 1,000% interest. The Office of Fair Trading launched an
:43:39. > :43:43.investigation into the entire sector. It is said they are happy
:43:43. > :43:48.to offer money without checking that loans can be repaid. The
:43:48. > :43:52.companies said they offer a service to those unable to get credit.
:43:52. > :43:58.Those left behind by an ailing banking system. They say the
:43:58. > :44:04.industry is regulated and licensed. Supporters of the deal, including
:44:04. > :44:09.the managing director of Newcastle, say the plan to invest �24 million
:44:09. > :44:14.into the community and young players set their deal apart.
:44:14. > :44:18.Critics, including the leader of Newcastle City Council said the
:44:18. > :44:25.North East already represents a hires level of insolvency in the UK.
:44:25. > :44:32.He thinks this sends a message of endorsement. With drinks companies
:44:32. > :44:37.and gambling firms already at the game, is singling out this deal
:44:37. > :44:47.hypocritical? Is it now time to blow the final whistle on these
:44:47. > :44:49.
:44:49. > :44:53.types of sponsors? You can join in by webcam or make your points
:44:53. > :44:58.online. It has been claimed a sponsorship deal is immoral. Many
:44:58. > :45:07.football teams are sponsored by alcohol companies and alcohol
:45:07. > :45:11.companies. Why make a fuss about We should be making a fuss about
:45:11. > :45:15.the other transactions especially in our country and in parts of our
:45:15. > :45:20.country which have been hit by poverty. The north of our country
:45:20. > :45:25.is struggling and the promotion of these pay day loans, short-term
:45:25. > :45:31.loans in a way in which it becomes so easily accessible to the
:45:31. > :45:35.struggling families means that they might find short-term respite, but
:45:35. > :45:39.long-term harm and effects of which they will never recover from. We
:45:39. > :45:44.are now into a situation where the second generation is carrying the
:45:44. > :45:48.debt of the first generation in those parts of the country. Not
:45:48. > :45:53.only is this something that from a religious prospective I disagree
:45:53. > :45:56.with, but we need to look at this also from a more aland ethical
:45:56. > :46:03.point of -- moral and ethical point of view.
:46:03. > :46:07.Angela, you don't have to be Muslim to feel anxiety about this?
:46:07. > :46:11.might feel that the desperate are being exploited, but would we
:46:11. > :46:15.prefer loan sharks that went around and knocked down your door and said,
:46:16. > :46:18."I'm going to break your legs if you don't pay us back." These
:46:18. > :46:23.companies are legal and they operate within the rule of law, we
:46:23. > :46:28.not like them, but they are not doing anything illegal and if they
:46:28. > :46:32.are fulfilling a role that other financial sources are not for
:46:32. > :46:38.people who are in need they exist. If they exist, they are entitled to
:46:38. > :46:42.be used as an endorsement. They are operating within the law.
:46:42. > :46:46.The law needs to change and across the banking sector because, of
:46:46. > :46:50.course, unarranged loans can end up costing as much as some of the pay
:46:50. > :46:58.day loans. I am from the north-east and we have had a recession right
:46:58. > :47:01.back from the the Thatcher days and we have never recovered from it.
:47:01. > :47:05.Including members of my family, they have had to take out loans
:47:05. > :47:09.that enup growing and -- end up growing and everything is out of
:47:09. > :47:13.control. You mention the loan sharks that threaten breaking your
:47:13. > :47:18.legs etcetera. Well, this is really no no better because if you can't
:47:18. > :47:22.pay this money back then nur trouble. But -- you are in trouble.
:47:22. > :47:28.A Premier League football team, where their players are pampered
:47:28. > :47:33.and massively over paid having this signature on their shirt. Barclays
:47:33. > :47:38.and banks like that have been sponsoring football and you don't
:47:38. > :47:41.object. Why make a distinction? are right. Unarranged loans can
:47:41. > :47:47.cost people as much. There is a problem across the whole
:47:47. > :47:52.sponsorship area because people worship, they idolised the
:47:52. > :47:58.Newcastle players and if they are endorsing something like Wonga,
:47:58. > :48:04.they are more likely to think it is all right to take a loan with them.
:48:04. > :48:07.Football lost its sole and I agree on these pampered and highly paid
:48:07. > :48:11.footballers distracts us from the main core of the debate. We have a
:48:11. > :48:16.bloated welfare system where benefits seem to be angled and
:48:16. > :48:22.directed to the wrong recipients. We are hearing stories for those
:48:22. > :48:26.whom it is easier to the to work than work because of the welfare
:48:26. > :48:32.system. We have people in genuine situations of need and we have a
:48:32. > :48:35.bloated welfare system as well. That is not our discussion here.
:48:35. > :48:38.makes people less sympathetic to the fact there are loan companies.
:48:39. > :48:42.They are legal. They are regulated and if this is what people have to
:48:42. > :48:47.go to because the welfare system is not fair then what else are people
:48:47. > :48:52.supposed to do? Regulation could help, but I don't believe any law
:48:52. > :48:56.will help morality. Morality should come from individuals themselves.
:48:56. > :49:00.These are people who are in need of some cash for example and because
:49:00. > :49:07.these companies are aware of people's desperation, they have
:49:07. > :49:16.found a gap in the market and dare I say, they are they are taking
:49:16. > :49:21.advantage of the recession. Russell, your organisation
:49:21. > :49:26.represents a number of pay day lenders, but not Wonga. What do you
:49:26. > :49:30.say to the argument that you are taking advantage of people who are
:49:30. > :49:33.clearly vulnerable? There are misconceptions about it and I don't
:49:33. > :49:37.accept that statement that we are taking advantage of vulnerable
:49:37. > :49:40.people. And that's for three reasons. Only 6% of us have
:49:40. > :49:44.actually used a short-term loan, but everybody has got an opinion
:49:44. > :49:48.about themment they are not loans for people without jobs or on low
:49:48. > :49:54.incomes. We don't set out to people who can't pay back. Why would you
:49:54. > :50:00.do that? There is to business -- there is no business sense. 3% are
:50:00. > :50:05.in the lower half the income brackets. The average salary of
:50:05. > :50:08.people using them are �17,000, a third of people are earning more
:50:08. > :50:12.than �24,000. There is more that can be done and we have introduced
:50:12. > :50:21.a voluntary code. You have talked about the level of regulation, we
:50:21. > :50:25.go beyond what is required of credit card companies. It is simple,
:50:25. > :50:28.it is trance parp and legal -- transparent and legal. It is chosen
:50:28. > :50:34.by a variety of people for lots of different reasons.
:50:34. > :50:39.I want to put that to Kathleen Carter and you got into trouble
:50:39. > :50:45.through doorstep lenders. Go ahead. You say 6% of the people use these
:50:45. > :50:54.services, but what percentage do you charge them? We are talking of
:50:54. > :51:00.thousands? I don't want to get bogged down. People don't have to
:51:00. > :51:04.do it. We talk about the fact that footballers influence everything.
:51:04. > :51:13.If footballers advertise a bar of chocolate, are they responsible for
:51:13. > :51:16.the obesity crisis in the country? We should look at this from a moral
:51:16. > :51:20.and ethical point of view. People are living beyond their means for
:51:20. > :51:24.example, perhaps that's what leads to desperation. People are being
:51:24. > :51:29.extravagant. There is a lot of wastefulness. We don't cherish what
:51:29. > :51:35.we have and we use it in a way that we don't think of a tomorrow. If
:51:35. > :51:41.you look at how our financial sector tries to tweak the knobs to
:51:41. > :51:45.balance the rate of interest with inflation and all that, all the the
:51:45. > :51:48.knobs we keep turning, we don't examine ourselves as to what we can
:51:48. > :51:52.do to help the poor and the needy people.
:51:52. > :51:54.One question quickly, the idea that it normalises something which
:51:54. > :52:00.vulnerable people shouldn't do. Angela, that's an argument that is
:52:00. > :52:05.made. Do you accept that? It normalises something which is
:52:05. > :52:12.questionable? But it is lawful. It is legal. It is Allowable. If it is
:52:12. > :52:16.on abfootball shirt... Is it moral? Is it lawful to sell a bar of
:52:16. > :52:23.chocolate to a really fat person? The fact is if you are a shopkeeper
:52:23. > :52:26.and a really obese person comes in and says, "Can I have two bars of
:52:26. > :52:30.chocolate?" What do you do? There is a role that the law can play in
:52:30. > :52:35.this. I think that laws set a standard and I think that with it
:52:35. > :52:40.comes often an understanding of how wrong it is to peddle to the
:52:40. > :52:45.vulnerable and to the relatively poor something that will get them
:52:45. > :52:49.into further trouble.. I want to turn to Luke Edwards, a
:52:49. > :52:54.reporter from The Daily Telegraph. I understand that some fans are
:52:54. > :53:01.uneasy about this, are you uneasy? Am I uneasy about a company that
:53:01. > :53:06.charges over 4,000% interest. Am I uneasy about a football club that
:53:06. > :53:09.sponsors them? Not really. Wonga advertise on television in between
:53:09. > :53:13.Coronation Street. It is a society problem. Companies shouldn't be
:53:13. > :53:17.able to charge 4,000% interest, but Newcastle United haven't done
:53:17. > :53:20.anything wrong. It is not the first controversial sponsorship deal.
:53:20. > :53:25.McDonald's sponsored the Olympics and Barclays sponsored the Premier
:53:25. > :53:30.League and they were fined �290 million for fixing loan rates. You
:53:30. > :53:34.know, Manchester City are owned by a ruling regime that it is illegal
:53:34. > :53:40.to be homosexual. Trying to bring the morals into football clubs, you
:53:40. > :53:43.are trying to hold football as being able to solve society's ills.
:53:43. > :53:47.Newcastle United has done nothing wrong. It is up to the Premier
:53:47. > :53:50.League and the Football Association to decide whether these companies
:53:50. > :53:53.are aloud to sponsor them as it is with cigarette companies. When I
:53:53. > :53:58.was growing up the cigarette companies were advertising over
:53:58. > :54:05.Formula One and over snooker and you know that was a product that
:54:05. > :54:09.killed you. We have got a moral hysteria about this deal and Wonga
:54:09. > :54:15.received more publicity than they would have done with their name...
:54:15. > :54:21.Thank you. You have given us so much food for thought.
:54:21. > :54:26.The 4,000% interest is theoretical. There is no evidence that anyone is
:54:26. > :54:35.paying thinking like that. Wonga chose not to take part in the
:54:35. > :54:44.discussion or give us a statement. John Kirkby. Take the argument that
:54:44. > :54:49.that is patronising to say, "You can't be trusted to use a loans
:54:49. > :54:53.company.". It is not anything to do with patronising people. Lives are
:54:53. > :54:58.devastated by poverty and debt. Peoples lives are devastated by
:54:58. > :55:02.these loan companies. People are not stupid. They do it because they
:55:02. > :55:07.have no other option. These companies are taking millions of
:55:08. > :55:12.pounds out of some of the most deprived communities in our country.
:55:12. > :55:16.These APRs are scandalous. It is nothing to do with a bar of
:55:16. > :55:23.chocolate... Thud they be sponsoring football teams or not,
:55:23. > :55:28.yes or no? They are naive. If the Chairman of Newcastle came out and
:55:28. > :55:33.spent time with us and he saw the effects of children not being fed
:55:33. > :55:38.and homes being repossessed, he would not let Wonga sponsor his
:55:38. > :55:43.football club. Because it is legal, it doesn't mean to say it is moral.
:55:43. > :55:49.It is the wrong thing to do. The last word to you, Shaykh
:55:49. > :55:53.Ibrahim Mogra. It is legal and why should footballers carry the can
:55:53. > :55:55.for society's ills? We need to think about what kind of society do
:55:55. > :56:00.we want to have? What stopped cigarette advertising from Formula
:56:00. > :56:03.One racing? It is the concern that people shared. We do not allow
:56:03. > :56:07.alcohol advertisements on children's shows, for example,
:56:07. > :56:11.Formula One no longer advertises cigarettes. We need to talk about
:56:11. > :56:14.these issues and create a society which is based on moral and ethical
:56:14. > :56:18.principles. Thank you for your thoughtful
:56:18. > :56:24.contributions. Now, are you passionate about a a
:56:24. > :56:28.topic and keen to share your views? We would like to invite you at home
:56:29. > :56:32.to submit your own film. It doesn't need to be longer than a minute and
:56:32. > :56:41.we will select the best and broadcast them on future programmes.
:56:41. > :56:44.We have popped simple instructions The system will go live after
:56:45. > :56:48.today's programme. We look forward to viewing your work and hearing
:56:48. > :56:53.your views. Your texts and online poll votes
:56:53. > :56:59.are in. We asked should we be making our prisons tougher? 89%
:56:59. > :57:02.said yes, they should and 11% said they shouldn't.
:57:02. > :57:09.People feel they want them them tougher, don't they? Prison has to
:57:09. > :57:14.be what it is supposed to do. A place where you lose some of your
:57:14. > :57:17.day-to-day privileges and you need to feel that pain that you have
:57:17. > :57:21.lost something and you don't want to go back again.
:57:21. > :57:24.Angela. Prisons should be hard work,
:57:24. > :57:28.capable of reforming, but only by putting people in the most
:57:28. > :57:31.difficult of situations and removing the liberties they would
:57:31. > :57:35.have out of prison. We have enough violence and
:57:35. > :57:39.suicides in prisons. They need to be places that people are kept from
:57:39. > :57:42.causing further harm. We need to rehabilitate and give people a
:57:42. > :57:46.second chance. Punishment has been taken away from their families and
:57:46. > :57:51.loved ones and not seeing a star in the sky. Stroking a cat or being
:57:51. > :57:54.able to a switch a light on or off for how many years of their
:57:54. > :58:04.sentence. Thank you very much indeed. Thank
:58:04. > :58:08.you to everybody who has taken part in today's programme.
:58:08. > :58:11.Don't text or call the phonelines anymore. They are now closed. You