:00:08. > :00:10.This week the gay rights group, Stonewall, gave their Bigot of the
:00:10. > :00:12.Year award to the UK's most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O'Brien,
:00:12. > :00:22.after he described same sex marriage as a "grotesque subversion
:00:22. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:25.of a universally accepted human right". Was Stonewall justified, or
:00:25. > :00:35.were they insulting a man for simply expressing his sincere
:00:35. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :00:55.Good morning, I'm Kate Silverton. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. The
:00:55. > :00:57.gay rights group, Stonewall, have awarded their Bigot of the Year
:00:57. > :00:59.title award to Cardinal Keith O'Brien, Head of the Catholic
:00:59. > :01:03.church in Scotland, for his observations on gay marriage. But
:01:03. > :01:07.is calling him a bigot an appropriate response? Or
:01:07. > :01:13.unjustified abuse of the UK's most senior Catholic?
:01:13. > :01:15.The prescription of anti- depressants is at an all time high.
:01:16. > :01:24.But are they really needed, or are we becoming a nation of dependents
:01:24. > :01:30.and malingerers? I think it is shocking that today
:01:30. > :01:35.mental illness is the number one people white people are signed off
:01:35. > :01:38.sick from work and claiming incapacity benefit.
:01:38. > :01:40.And are our smaller and newer religions being given fair air time
:01:40. > :01:43.compared with Christianity, Judaism and Islam? Should all our religions
:01:43. > :01:50.be given equal status? A warm welcome to my guests this
:01:50. > :01:52.week. Until his retirement in 2009, Stephen Lowe was the Bishop of
:01:52. > :01:57.Hulme and the Church of England's first Bishop for Urban Life and
:01:57. > :01:59.Faith. Patrica McKeever is the editor of the Catholic Truth. She
:01:59. > :02:03.is a controversial figure in Scotland, due to her public
:02:03. > :02:06.criticism of the modern Church. And Andrew Pierce is a columnist for
:02:06. > :02:09.the Daily Mail and a former assistant editor of both the Daily
:02:09. > :02:15.Telegraph and the Times. Andrew is a self-professed scourge of
:02:15. > :02:19.politicians on the left and the right.
:02:19. > :02:21.We want you to be able to join in today's debates, so call in to
:02:21. > :02:24.challenge our guests. You can give your views on Twitter or by phone.
:02:24. > :02:26.Phone calls cost up to 5 pence per minute from most landlines. Calls
:02:27. > :02:36.from mobiles may cost considerably more. Texts will be charged at your
:02:37. > :02:37.
:02:37. > :02:40.standard message rate. Gay rights charity Stonewall
:02:40. > :02:42.brought a week long row to a head on Thursday night, when it awarded
:02:42. > :02:44.the leader of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, Cardinal Keith
:02:44. > :02:54.O'Brien, its controversial Bigot of the Year Award for his observations
:02:54. > :02:55.
:02:55. > :02:59.on gay marriage. In the build-up to the ceremony, it took sponsors of
:02:59. > :03:08.Stonewall's awards threatened to pull out if the charity continued
:03:08. > :03:14.to go to award the prize. Ruth Davidson won the award at the same
:03:14. > :03:18.ceremony but criticised the title is saying that calling people are
:03:18. > :03:23.big it was just wrong. But Stonewall highlighted the nasty
:03:23. > :03:26.language used by eight some people and argued that it is right to
:03:26. > :03:31.shine a light on what they see is discrimination particularly from
:03:31. > :03:35.religious groups opposed to gay marriage. But some religious groups
:03:35. > :03:41.claim that the award demonstrates Stonewall's disinterest in serious
:03:41. > :03:45.debate and its inability to listen to any other point of view. Soap is
:03:45. > :03:49.attack the best form of defence when fighting for equality? Or by
:03:49. > :03:54.dishing out awards for bigotry, are they displaying the same
:03:54. > :03:56.intolerance that they are fighting against?
:03:56. > :03:59.The definition of a bigot is someone who is intolerant of
:03:59. > :04:06.another's views or religion or lifestyle. So is Stonewall's Bigot
:04:06. > :04:10.of the Year award innapropriate? Andrew, if you were at the awards.
:04:10. > :04:15.I have been a member of the Stonewall for many years. I support
:04:15. > :04:21.the right of the bishop or anyone else to criticise people's
:04:21. > :04:25.lifestyles but I struggled with his definition of marriage. I think he
:04:25. > :04:29.went beyond the limits of reasonable debate so I think it is
:04:29. > :04:33.reasonable for Stonewall to fight back on behalf of many gay people
:04:33. > :04:42.in loving relationships, just as loving as heterosexual people. I
:04:42. > :04:46.think it is fair to call him the big it because he went to a bath. -
:04:46. > :04:49.- he went too far. That's the question for today's vote. Is
:04:49. > :04:51.Stonewall's Bigot of the Year award inappropriate? If you think it is,
:04:52. > :04:54.then text the word VOTE, followed by YES. If you disagree, text VOTE
:04:54. > :04:57.followed by NO. Our text number is 81771 and texts will be charged at
:04:57. > :04:59.your standard message rate. You can also vote online on our website.
:04:59. > :05:08.For full terms and conditions visit bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. We'll
:05:08. > :05:13.show how you voted at the end of the programme. I am passionately
:05:13. > :05:19.against what Cardinal O'Brien said. I support gay marriage and gay
:05:19. > :05:24.people. I am a member of changing attitude. But I do not think it is
:05:24. > :05:29.helpful to descend to the level of the kind that used he issued
:05:29. > :05:34.against gay people. When you start abusing the abuser you actually
:05:34. > :05:39.descend to their level. And I agree with Ruth Davidson that it demeans
:05:39. > :05:43.what Stonewall stands for by using that label. He may be bigoted but
:05:43. > :05:48.actually to have used him in that way does not help the argument. I
:05:48. > :05:52.wish instead that they would continue to argue back and take the
:05:52. > :05:58.high moral ground in a sense over and against what the cardinal stood
:05:59. > :06:01.for. There was a suggestion in your film at the beginning that
:06:01. > :06:08.organisations have criticised stonewalled for not engaging in
:06:08. > :06:11.debate, but they killed. They engage with ministers. But I think
:06:11. > :06:16.once a year it is not a bad thing to look back and see how much
:06:17. > :06:22.attitudes are changing. The car of all is in an exalted position of
:06:22. > :06:26.and is an influential man. His opinions carry weight and it is
:06:26. > :06:32.unacceptable I believe to describe people who want to go into a gay
:06:32. > :06:37.marriage - and I have been critical of a marriage - I was deeply
:06:37. > :06:42.offended by what he said. Because it is not be so version to say
:06:42. > :06:49.people who want to go into a gay marriage are upsetting some people.
:06:49. > :06:54.He should be able to withstand some criticism. But what does it
:06:54. > :07:00.actually contribute to Stonewall? It has bought the argument out into
:07:00. > :07:06.the open in a way that we have not had for a long time. But then so
:07:06. > :07:12.many of us know what Cardno of Ryan stands for and are unhappy about it.
:07:12. > :07:16.-- Cardinal O'Brien. But respect, you are in the clerical world. I
:07:16. > :07:22.think it is important what more people know what the most powerful
:07:22. > :07:29.Roman Catholic cleric is St in the United Kingdom. I think people are
:07:29. > :07:37.shocked that he used such inflammatory language. I am afraid
:07:37. > :07:44.that he is bigoted. Strictly speaking, it means someone
:07:44. > :07:53.intolerant of the beliefs of another. And Patricia commit
:07:53. > :07:57.yourself have been nominated. I did was simply reported after a
:07:57. > :08:02.large front page article in the Scottish tabloids by priests, a
:08:02. > :08:09.priest saying that he was a gay priest and that there where a
:08:09. > :08:14.network of them and we felt we had a right to know who they wear.
:08:14. > :08:19.There were living a double life and we thought we had a right to know
:08:19. > :08:25.and so we did an investigation. We did not publish all their names, up
:08:25. > :08:30.we had a dialogue with them. Some of them said they really did not
:08:30. > :08:40.want the publicity. But you wanted to highlight the hypocrisy? We did
:08:40. > :08:41.
:08:41. > :08:45.and for that I was nominated the Bigot of the Year. I disagree with
:08:45. > :08:50.your definition, it is not someone who is intolerant, but someone who
:08:50. > :08:55.is filled with hate and I do not believe that that is Cardinal Bob
:08:55. > :09:03.Bryan. I would be critical of him on various matters to do with the
:09:03. > :09:08.Church but not on this matter. that is a dictionary definition.
:09:08. > :09:13.is in the dictionary I have got. is completely intolerant. In the
:09:13. > :09:18.past when I have written about my sexuality, I have had a couple of
:09:18. > :09:21.letters from incredibly senior clerics from the Church of England
:09:21. > :09:26.and the Roman Catholic Church saying, we have to be careful about
:09:26. > :09:30.the language that we deploy. I hope now Cardle O'Brien will be more
:09:30. > :09:34.careful about the language that he deploys because it is not
:09:34. > :09:38.acceptable. The meaning of tolerance has changed in our modern
:09:38. > :09:44.society. It used to simply mean putting up with something you do
:09:44. > :09:49.not like. Now it means acceptance. We do not accept all kinds of
:09:49. > :09:57.aberrations in society and if we do not then we are labelled intolerant
:09:57. > :10:03.and bigoted. Did you find that damaging? We have said you were not
:10:03. > :10:10.bigoted enough to win the award! But was it damaging to you? I had
:10:10. > :10:14.the most incredible hate campaign mounted against me. You used the
:10:14. > :10:20.word aberration, do you think homosexuality is an aberration?
:10:20. > :10:26.do. I can see where your word nominated. Let me just say this,
:10:26. > :10:36.and until hummus that Solti was legalised in the 1960s, it was a
:10:36. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:49.legal offence. -- homosexuality. 1.5% of the UK population only
:10:49. > :10:51.
:10:51. > :10:56.where identified as being a homosexual. And art exerting undue
:10:56. > :11:02.influence on almost every aspect of life. Just responding to that,
:11:02. > :11:07.calling it an aberration? As far as I'm concerned, that is totally
:11:07. > :11:12.wrong. I profoundly disagree with what has just been said and with
:11:12. > :11:16.what Cardinal O'Brien thinks. But I also assert their right to hold
:11:16. > :11:21.that particular view. Although I would argue against it to the end
:11:21. > :11:27.of my days. I think we need to be able to say, you are wrong but you
:11:27. > :11:32.have the right to believe what you believe, in a free society. I'm not
:11:32. > :11:37.sure that Andrew is allowing them the space to do that. I entirely
:11:37. > :11:41.endorsed the right of the cardinal to speak in that way. We are a free
:11:41. > :11:45.country and I believe in free speech and float the idea that we
:11:45. > :11:51.should censor in any form. But it does not believe that stonewalled
:11:51. > :11:55.just have to put up with it. Absolutely not was de I think
:11:55. > :12:04.calling him bigoted has opened up a fantastic debate which we need to
:12:04. > :12:14.have. I do not think anyone has the right to break got's law. But I do
:12:14. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:24.not accept that it is God's law. That is a separate debate!
:12:24. > :12:30.John Deakin is the parliamentary officer for the Scottish Catholic
:12:30. > :12:35.Church. How does an award like this reflect an impact on the Christian
:12:35. > :12:40.community? I think it does leave them with
:12:40. > :12:48.some disbelief about this anger. People asking me how they can get
:12:48. > :12:52.away with this. So much is said about tolerance. But this is built
:12:52. > :13:01.on the distortion. The cardinal never said the words attributed to
:13:01. > :13:05.him. Cardinal O'Brien is nothing like bigoted, he is a fantastic man.
:13:05. > :13:11.He has done a lot of good and supported all kinds of communities.
:13:11. > :13:15.He supports people in same-sex situations in a compassionate way.
:13:15. > :13:21.This approach by Stonewall is a propaganda war are trying to
:13:21. > :13:25.undermine Christians. Christianity is the last acceptable prejudice in
:13:25. > :13:32.our society. And it is shameful that Stonewall has such influence
:13:32. > :13:35.throughout society. So you now feel like the victim? We are the target
:13:35. > :13:40.of a campaign which is trying to than a fight those who disagreed
:13:40. > :13:45.about the meaning of sexual relationships, which are supported
:13:45. > :13:49.in Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The
:13:49. > :13:55.Cardinal was identifying that right and saying the understanding of
:13:55. > :14:05.family was built on human rights laws and to undermine that was it's
:14:05. > :14:07.
:14:07. > :14:12.a version. That is what he said. -- 8 subversion. I heard the car nor
:14:12. > :14:19.on the radio likening it to the return of slavery. -- the cardinal.
:14:19. > :14:28.He did not say that. If you will impose a law on society, it affects
:14:28. > :14:38.everyone. You are deliberately trying to marginalise and
:14:38. > :14:39.
:14:39. > :14:46.stigmatise people. Amy Lamay and joins us now. You're at the wards.
:14:46. > :14:56.Just put it into context, it was it given in a them and don't or more
:14:56. > :14:59.
:14:59. > :15:04.tongue-in-cheek? -- a vehement There was a lot of shouting when
:15:04. > :15:07.Ruth Davidson got up to receive her award for Politician of the Year
:15:07. > :15:15.and assaulted Stonewall for having the Bigot of the Year award. The
:15:15. > :15:20.audience were unimpressed. Then things quietened down by Gok Wan
:15:20. > :15:24.and the chief executive of Stonewall. Ben and Gok very calmly
:15:24. > :15:29.explained this specific language used by the nominees for Bigot of
:15:29. > :15:35.the Year. I don't think there was any question in the room that that
:15:35. > :15:40.kind of language they used was inflame may Tory and completely
:15:40. > :15:45.qualified them as a bigot. What I find disturbing is the notion that
:15:45. > :15:51.somehow or other Christianity involves now opposition to
:15:51. > :15:55.homosexuality and gay behaviour. I found that in what John said from
:15:55. > :15:59.Scotland quite extraordinary. One of the award winners was a good
:15:59. > :16:03.friend of mine, who is one of the award winners at the Stonewall
:16:03. > :16:07.event. There are many Christians who hold the same view as I do. In
:16:07. > :16:13.fact I think the majority of Christians, certainly in my own
:16:13. > :16:17.church now believe that, despite the resistance there is because of
:16:17. > :16:24.the worldwide Anglican Communion and the problems it will have. The
:16:24. > :16:29.majority of people in the pews think this is a non-issue now and
:16:29. > :16:37.we ought to move on beyond and this sort of thing aligning Christianity
:16:37. > :16:42.with anti-gay views, I find quite offensive. Can I say this - this is
:16:42. > :16:47.completely wrong, because from the very beginning of Christianity,
:16:47. > :16:53.homosexuality has been believed to be a sin, one of the four sins. The
:16:53. > :16:57.idea we can somehow liberalise everything now is a nonsense.
:16:57. > :17:06.There's nothing in scripture from the first to last page - the
:17:06. > :17:12.demands of Gods.... Have we not moved on? We cannot move on from
:17:12. > :17:16.what is right. I believe in a Jesus who was a loving, accepting, man
:17:16. > :17:22.who embraced people, particularly outsiders. That is the sort of
:17:22. > :17:28.faith I believe in. I tire of people quoting the Bible who say
:17:28. > :17:37.homosexuality is not allowed in the Christian world. I was brought up
:17:37. > :17:44.as a Catholic. Do we believe the Book of Genesis? People like
:17:44. > :17:47.Patricia McKeever can pluck bits out of the book to say it.... While
:17:47. > :17:53.they use this language I think it is right that Stonewall keep this
:17:53. > :17:58.to the fore to show there are people who think like that and talk
:17:58. > :18:02.like that. Every Catholic Church had a pastoral letter written to
:18:03. > :18:10.them opposing gay marriage from the pulpit. If you like almost
:18:11. > :18:15.politicising it. Bob Callaghan is from the Inclusive
:18:15. > :18:20.Church - are we in danger though, based on what we have heard here
:18:20. > :18:27.today of having a liberal fassism because two people who have
:18:27. > :18:32.entrenched views are danger of labelling each other bigots because
:18:33. > :18:37.they disagree? I don't think we would encourage liberal fassism. I
:18:37. > :18:43.think we would encourage sharing of different views. Interesting for us,
:18:43. > :18:48.as the Inclusive Church, Giles Fraser is President of the Church.
:18:48. > :18:53.On one hand we have Giles as a priest encouraging honesty and
:18:54. > :18:59.hopeness and then we have this Bigot of the Year award. So, for us,
:18:59. > :19:05.as Inclusive Church and our members and individuals, there's a tension
:19:05. > :19:12.between those two extremes. On one hand we see a priest who speaks
:19:12. > :19:16.openly in support of those who are gay, lesbian, transgender. Then we
:19:16. > :19:21.have the Cardinal saying these amazing things which are really
:19:21. > :19:25.quite hurtful. I think we, at the Inclusive Church, want to encourage
:19:25. > :19:32.Stonewall to have the right to say what they have to say and sometimes
:19:32. > :19:37.to challenge and that is quite right. Also we want the Cardinal
:19:37. > :19:42.the right to defend himself. We would encourage compensation there.
:19:42. > :19:46.It gets us to a good closer there. Is there any way to find some
:19:46. > :19:50.resolution - any middle ground? Christ said the way to life is
:19:50. > :19:56.narrow. He didn't say we have a broad church. He said the way to
:19:56. > :20:02.life is narrow and few there are find it. I am shut out now!
:20:02. > :20:07.Finished! All I would say is, as far as I am concerned, that, what I
:20:07. > :20:11.believe may be one way forward is actually to really look at the life
:20:11. > :20:14.of Jesus Christ, upon whom Christianity is based and look at
:20:14. > :20:20.what he stood for - that is openness, exclusivety and the
:20:20. > :20:23.embrace of all. He talked about love and it wasn't man or woman or
:20:23. > :20:30.heterosexual love. It was about love. Let's work on that one.
:20:31. > :20:33.I said at the beginning, I defend the Catholic Church's opinion. I
:20:33. > :20:37.understand high they oppose gay marriage but I would appeal to the
:20:37. > :20:45.Cardinal and the leaders of this church to mind their language.
:20:45. > :20:51.Thank you. We've had text and calls. The B word is an easy way to
:20:51. > :20:57.denigrate people with a different opinion. "as a gay man h priest is
:20:57. > :21:02.not a bigot." "The bullied have become the bully." Thank you. That
:21:02. > :21:08.is our poll today - is Stonewall's Bigot of the Year award in'
:21:08. > :21:15.proipiate? -- inappropriate?
:21:15. > :21:20.You can get in touch. Texts are charged at the standard
:21:20. > :21:30.rate. You can vote online. You have around 20 minutes before
:21:30. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:35.This week, the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, called for a mental
:21:35. > :21:42.health strategy to change the way society is tackling the issue. The
:21:42. > :21:47.comments have focused opinion on what many regard as the last taboo
:21:47. > :21:54.- how mental health is regarded and treated. With one in ten digging a
:21:54. > :22:01.nosed with depression it is the most prominent illness. Are we
:22:01. > :22:08.sleep wauxing into a US -- sleepwalking into a US way
:22:08. > :22:15.dependency culture? Andrew Pierce thinks we should show
:22:15. > :22:20.some true grit and man up. I think it is shocking that mental illness,
:22:20. > :22:25.Mr Than a bad back or the flu -- more than a bad back or the flu is
:22:25. > :22:30.the main reason why people are claiming incapacity benefits.
:22:30. > :22:34.The cost of mental illness is mnds 105 billion a year in -- �105
:22:34. > :22:42.billion a year in England alone. We cannot afford to go on like this.
:22:42. > :22:46.What we need is a return of the British stiff upper lip.
:22:46. > :22:51.The truth is, there isn't an easy solution and there never has been.
:22:51. > :22:54.A friend of mine, for heavens sake, was prescribed anti-depressions
:22:54. > :22:57.because he was suffering anxiety because he was moving house. That
:22:57. > :23:01.tells you all you need to know about the mind set, not just of
:23:01. > :23:10.some of the doctors, but of some of those who claim they are suffering
:23:10. > :23:14.from depression. This mass diagnosis of depression
:23:14. > :23:19.merely cheapens it for those who are suffering clinical problems,
:23:19. > :23:23.which I know can cripple their lives. GPs, they are creating a
:23:23. > :23:27.dependency culture by dishing out pills rather than using
:23:27. > :23:36.psychological therapies, which the NHS's own guidelines say are far
:23:36. > :23:39.more effective. It is why the number of
:23:39. > :23:44.prescriptions for drugs like Prozac have actually doubled in the last
:23:44. > :23:48.decade. So, it is time those people
:23:48. > :23:53.complaining of stress, or even depression, got things into a bit
:23:53. > :23:57.of perspective. That means we would have more money to treat those
:23:57. > :24:03.people who genuinely need our help. Do you agree with Andrew? If wow
:24:03. > :24:07.want to join the conversation you can on Twitter, phone, text.
:24:07. > :24:10.Details on the screen. She's checking on the screen! We are
:24:10. > :24:14.joined now by the author and journalist Kishwar Desai. Thank you
:24:14. > :24:19.for joining us. Let's start with you as our new guest this morning.
:24:19. > :24:24.What did you make of what Andrew had to say? I disagree with Andrew.
:24:24. > :24:28.I think that depression unlike many other diseases, it's not a physical
:24:28. > :24:31.ailment, however it can become one if you allow it to get out of hand.
:24:31. > :24:35.It is vr important for us to understand that -- very important
:24:35. > :24:39.for us to understand that life has changed. People start by feeling
:24:39. > :24:44.unwell. They need to go to a doctor urgently because often you don't
:24:44. > :24:50.know what it could lead to. We've had a sad case of a woman who was
:24:50. > :24:55.suffering from depression and she went on to kill her two children
:24:55. > :25:02.because she was not advised as to whether she could give it all up.
:25:02. > :25:06.Because life is stressful now people need to go to doctors.
:25:06. > :25:11.we all labelling ourselves depressed. Somebody else may be
:25:11. > :25:16.under the weather and we seek help for it, when we could have a cup of
:25:16. > :25:21.tea and chat? There is nobody to talk to. In the old days, when
:25:21. > :25:26.Andrew spoke about the stiff upper lip, in the old days that is what
:25:26. > :25:31.we did. We spoke to a family member or somebody around. Now life has
:25:31. > :25:35.changed. People lead more isolated existences. They don't... Should
:25:35. > :25:38.they medicate for that? medicated. I am saying they need to
:25:38. > :25:42.go to the doctor, whether the doctor gives them the right advice
:25:42. > :25:46.or not, that is another matter. They need to go to somebody to talk
:25:46. > :25:50.it out. People are going to the doctor and the doctor is reaching
:25:50. > :25:58.for the prescription pad too hasteedly. It cannot be right that
:25:58. > :26:03.within a decade a number of people are on incapacity benefit, because
:26:03. > :26:08.of mental illness has doubled. I don't believe life has become that
:26:08. > :26:15.much more stressful in ten years. I can argue people were more stressed
:26:15. > :26:19.40 years ago. The therapies are more expensive than doling out the
:26:19. > :26:22.anti-depressants. Anybody who believes that living on anti-
:26:22. > :26:27.depressants is wrong. They have their side effects. They actually
:26:27. > :26:30.produce all sorts of undesirable side effects for people, including
:26:30. > :26:34.dependency. One would not want to go on that unless you are ill. The
:26:35. > :26:40.other thing I would want to say about clinical depression is it is
:26:40. > :26:45.a very serious illness. It is for some people quite as serious as any
:26:45. > :26:48.physical illness, including cancer. A friend of mine nearly died of
:26:48. > :26:54.clinical depression because he stopped eating, drinking. It was
:26:54. > :27:00.not until he had a therapy on the head and so on that actually it
:27:00. > :27:03.turned around. Others would argue that tablets can help.... We have
:27:03. > :27:10.to be depression at looking at depression in this blanket way. It
:27:10. > :27:15.is a very serious illness. It is why you need to go to a profession.
:27:15. > :27:19.It is difficult if a person thinks of him or herself as being
:27:19. > :27:25.depressed by themselves. It is a question for the medical fraternity.
:27:25. > :27:30.They are under enormous amounts of pressure. Let's bring in a doctor,
:27:30. > :27:35.a GP. First ltly, what evidence is there that -- firstly, what
:27:35. > :27:41.evidence is there that people are diagnosed. How can you diagnosed in
:27:41. > :27:47.seven or eight minutes? I think, as you alluded to, the statistics are
:27:47. > :27:51.undeniableable. The number of people taking -- undeniable. The
:27:51. > :27:56.number of people taking anti- depressants has increased three-
:27:56. > :28:06.fold. That needs to be accounted for. There seem to be two factors
:28:06. > :28:06.
:28:07. > :28:12.here. I mean, the first is that doctors are much reader to diagnose
:28:12. > :28:15.depression than in the past. Indeed they are encouraged to do so by the
:28:15. > :28:21.Royal College of Psychiatrists and other organisations, on the basis
:28:21. > :28:25.that a lot of those systems which used to be dismissed in the past,
:28:25. > :28:28.or marginallised were due to depression and what they did was
:28:28. > :28:34.diagnose this other underlying mental illness and treat it
:28:34. > :28:38.accordingly. There seems to be no doubt that people have much lower
:28:38. > :28:44.tolerance for what used to be called "the blues." And I think
:28:44. > :28:50.this is also related to the fact that this - there is a tendency to
:28:51. > :29:00.miss interpret, what one in the past called an exeast ten shall -
:29:00. > :29:04.what is the purpose of life? So on and so on - it's due to, as it were
:29:04. > :29:08.deeper spiritual problems. Oliver James, I will bring him in now. How
:29:08. > :29:18.big a problem is it in your experience? What reasons would you
:29:18. > :29:21.
:29:21. > :29:31.The scientific evidence shows that we have five times more likely to
:29:31. > :29:31.
:29:31. > :29:39.be diagnosed now with depression than in the past. It all began with
:29:39. > :29:46.Margaret Thatcher come up we became a nation of consumer junkies.
:29:46. > :29:53.Politicians and advertisers created inflated ambitions. We always want
:29:53. > :29:57.what we have not got. We have confused will need we are desires.
:29:57. > :30:02.And the massive wealth of a tiny minority is put ahead of the well-
:30:02. > :30:07.being of the majority thanks to Andrew Pierce and is duly dished on
:30:07. > :30:14.the newspaper where he works for supporting Thatcherism. That is a
:30:14. > :30:19.major cause why some of us are more of mentally ill than we used to be.
:30:19. > :30:25.Glad you're not sitting on the fence! I have heard Mrs Thatcher
:30:25. > :30:30.being accused of many things, but I have never heard of her being
:30:30. > :30:40.responsible for the rise in mental illness. It is a complete left wing
:30:40. > :30:46.
:30:46. > :30:50.right. -- rant. It is completely absurd. I am not trying to limit
:30:50. > :30:55.the effect of people who have suffered from mental illness
:30:55. > :31:00.because it has happened to some of my close friends. But I think the
:31:00. > :31:10.statistics are extraordinary that so many people are now on Prozac
:31:10. > :31:13.
:31:13. > :31:18.which creates a sense of dependency. Oliver, from a more traditional
:31:18. > :31:21.viewpoint, glottal therapists will say that these problems of
:31:21. > :31:30.depression, it manifests later in life because of problems in
:31:30. > :31:40.childhood. What do you think about that? The latest evidence shows
:31:40. > :31:42.
:31:42. > :31:52.that your genes play little part in it. My book is called, we'd set
:31:52. > :31:55.
:31:55. > :32:00.your child's emotional thermostat. You take your child away from the
:32:00. > :32:05.family and give it a very intense, condensed experience of feeling
:32:05. > :32:14.completely loved and in control. You tell the child constantly how
:32:14. > :32:18.much they are loved. I first tried that during a television series and
:32:18. > :32:23.I was amazed at the effect that it had. It seems to change the way the
:32:23. > :32:31.parent feels about the child as well as how the child behaves. And
:32:31. > :32:37.it is incredibly good fun. Just to add one thing to what the bishop
:32:37. > :32:42.said earlier, doctors simply do not have the time. And he must
:32:42. > :32:46.recognise that as a genuine problem. That is where the problem arises,
:32:46. > :32:51.not that people are not going to a doctor but that they do not have
:32:51. > :32:57.the time to do the proper diagnosis. That needs to be addressed.
:32:57. > :33:04.means that people do not get to the root cause. The real problem is
:33:04. > :33:09.never dealt with. I didn't think Oliver touched on something quite
:33:09. > :33:16.important. Individualism has been something of the recipe of our
:33:16. > :33:20.society for the past 20 or 30 years. The breakdown of community, of
:33:20. > :33:28.sensible longing, the way in which people pursue the individual goals
:33:28. > :33:33.has meant that often it has led to much higher family breakdown. And
:33:33. > :33:38.the sense that actually your own identity and sense of being
:33:38. > :33:43.valuable to somebody has been lost in that process. Undoubtedly that
:33:43. > :33:52.sense of isolation leads to depression. But that has nothing to
:33:52. > :33:56.do with Thatcherism. Thinking of ourselves and not of the wider
:33:56. > :34:02.family. And also the demise in religious attendance may also be
:34:02. > :34:07.part of it. It may be part of it because church provides a sense of
:34:07. > :34:14.listening and being cared for for many people. Not necessarily the
:34:14. > :34:19.Church, it could be the family. That is one place. These are the
:34:19. > :34:24.others support structures which unfortunately do not exist anymore.
:34:24. > :34:27.They do exist, but people do not take advantage of them was do of to
:34:27. > :34:32.bring it back to that issue, it seems we all accept there is a
:34:32. > :34:38.problem, but are we to a quick to claim depression? Is there any
:34:38. > :34:45.solution? I think it is just too easy, it is a quick fix solution,
:34:45. > :34:49.you are depressed common I will give you some pills. You had a
:34:50. > :34:56.friend who was described pills for moving house? I think it is
:34:56. > :35:00.ridiculous. You are not depressed, you're just suffering some anxiety.
:35:00. > :35:04.Are you prepared to encourage the government to spend the extra money
:35:04. > :35:09.on the measures that are really necessary? If you stopped giving
:35:09. > :35:13.out all the skills you would save a lot of money and that releases the
:35:13. > :35:18.resources for proper therapies that people need. But they are actually
:35:18. > :35:28.more expensive in the end. If you're talking about a course of 10
:35:28. > :35:29.
:35:30. > :35:38.or 20 sessions. Someone who has actually done the research on this
:35:38. > :35:45.is Lisa Appignanesi. Our should depressives being lost in the
:35:45. > :35:55.crowd? I think it is a complicated area. Your speakers have touched on
:35:55. > :35:55.
:35:55. > :36:04.quite a few of the issues. It is true that we have become a society
:36:04. > :36:07.which has more of a medical basis. And we turn took medical solutions
:36:07. > :36:11.for cultural problems. So I agree about the need for more
:36:11. > :36:17.psychological help. One of the things that has happened with the
:36:17. > :36:26.medical profession, we used to have time with patients but also doctors
:36:26. > :36:33.had more psychological training. Around the 1950s this whole
:36:33. > :36:37.movement was there for doctors to learn from. It enabled them to
:36:37. > :36:43.actually treat their patients psychologically as well as looking
:36:43. > :36:49.at the physical symptoms of their ailments. And the whole kind of
:36:49. > :36:52.case history, the story of life problems that they brought. So they
:36:52. > :36:59.were better trained to deal with this and did not immediately have
:36:59. > :37:07.to reach for the pills. We have become increasingly at drug society.
:37:07. > :37:11.We think of happiness as being like a drug, a high. But in fact you
:37:11. > :37:16.know we're not that simple and cannot be reduced to that. Is that
:37:16. > :37:19.where the consensus lies? thinks so. But it is more to do
:37:19. > :37:24.with the medical community and how they are dealing with it instead of
:37:24. > :37:29.people going for help. Because people need to go for help because
:37:29. > :37:33.the other structures no longer exist. One text saying, I have
:37:33. > :37:39.suffered with depression for years. There was no other treatment on the
:37:39. > :37:41.NHS. People are too quick to prescribe medication.
:37:41. > :37:42.Coming up, with Christianity, Islam and Judaism dominating the
:37:42. > :37:47.religious landscape, are newer and smaller religions being
:37:47. > :37:51.overshadowed? Should all religions be given equal status, including
:37:51. > :37:57.more funding, support and ultimately, recognition? You can
:37:57. > :38:01.make your views known by phone, email or online. Remember, keep
:38:01. > :38:09.voting too in our poll. The question, is Stonewall's Bigot of
:38:09. > :38:12.the Year award innapropriate? Our text number is 81771. Texts will be
:38:12. > :38:21.charged at your standard message rate. You've got about five minutes
:38:21. > :38:27.before the poll closes. Or you can vote online by visiting our website.
:38:27. > :38:30.It's time for our Moral Moments of the week. One of the biggest
:38:30. > :38:40.stories this week is Hurricane Sandy. Some claim it is an act of
:38:40. > :38:45.God. This is part of the nonsense of the far Right in America. In
:38:45. > :38:52.terms of their views and even bishops have been accused of
:38:52. > :38:57.blaming the floods on homosexuals. The notion that God punishes people
:38:57. > :39:06.somehow through the weather it seems to me quite extraordinary. It
:39:06. > :39:11.seems to be a piece of Arak nonsense. Or a god who helps
:39:11. > :39:21.President's?! That is slightly different. The notion that anyone
:39:21. > :39:25.has a hotline to God. People are saying that at the moment it plays
:39:25. > :39:31.in favour of President Obama. Obviously it has got to do with
:39:31. > :39:39.climate change. But regarding what the bishop said about right-wing
:39:39. > :39:47.fantasies and so one comic in 1934 when the once an earthquake in the
:39:47. > :39:52.heart mahatma Gandhi actually said it was an act of God. So you can
:39:52. > :39:57.have a perfectly rational human being taking recourse to a kind of
:39:57. > :40:05.symbolism to express something for what he feels might make a larger
:40:05. > :40:10.point. It did annoying the Duke rationalists at that time. - Jack
:40:10. > :40:16.the true. Everyone was upset by that. So there is a history, people
:40:16. > :40:21.don't use these moments. The same in the Tsunami and the masks that
:40:21. > :40:31.were left standing because they were so well constructed. That was
:40:31. > :40:37.
:40:37. > :40:41.the same way. -- mosques. I just agree with the Bishop completely.
:40:41. > :40:48.What kind of God would inflict wicked things on people. It is just
:40:48. > :40:56.one of those things. I was intrigued by how it impacts on the
:40:56. > :41:00.American election. But it makes life more interesting! It also
:41:00. > :41:09.raises questions about the theology behind this. Do we believe in a
:41:09. > :41:11.loving God? It does not hold together. Also in the news this
:41:11. > :41:18.week, the NHS giving contraceptive jabs to 13-year-olds without their
:41:18. > :41:23.parents' knowledge. I do not understand why the state is
:41:23. > :41:29.conniving in allowing people to break the law. The age of consent
:41:29. > :41:35.is 16 so why are schools giving out breath control, encouraging them if
:41:35. > :41:41.you like to have sex before they are legally entitled. I just think
:41:41. > :41:47.it is the wrong way around. should they approach it could that
:41:47. > :41:52.they should certainly consult the parents. Patient confidentiality?
:41:52. > :41:55.She is not old enough. I thought that until three days ago when I
:41:55. > :42:00.had a conversation with someone who has spent a lot of time working
:42:00. > :42:07.with young people. She said you have to realise that for a very
:42:07. > :42:11.small number, of young girls actually getting this advice, they
:42:11. > :42:18.are largely in the care of the local authority. There are no
:42:18. > :42:23.parents around. They are running wild. And the only way to protect
:42:23. > :42:26.them, because often they have such low self-esteem that they see their
:42:26. > :42:30.bodies as being something that could be abused in all kinds of
:42:30. > :42:37.ways, it is actually providing them with that help. There are no
:42:37. > :42:44.parents. And what you and I might regard as quite a Rangers, it does
:42:44. > :42:51.not quite apply where there are no parents around. -- out wages.
:42:51. > :42:56.parent I am worried about this because it can go across the board
:42:56. > :43:02.to everybody. And even when the parents are there there often not
:43:02. > :43:08.consulted. So I think definitely it should not be done because the it
:43:08. > :43:13.is stealing people's childhoods. We need to address this as a society.
:43:13. > :43:18.Not looking at it just through a liberal prison but something more
:43:18. > :43:23.of a structured approach, how we can Council these kids and not take
:43:23. > :43:27.the easy way out. You've been voting in our poll this morning. Is
:43:27. > :43:30.Stonewall's Bigot of the Year award innapropriate? The poll's closing
:43:30. > :43:33.now, so please do not text, as your vote will not count, but you may
:43:33. > :43:43.still be charged. The online vote is now closing as well. We'll bring
:43:43. > :43:44.
:43:44. > :43:53.you the result at the end of the If you were to be asked to name the
:43:53. > :43:59.religions which practise in the UK, you may say Christianity, Islam and
:43:59. > :44:05.others. Should all our religions be given e qual status? Today a new
:44:05. > :44:11.Pope will be enthrowned to oversee a congregation of millions.
:44:11. > :44:15.It's not the Roman Catholic Church we are talking about, but the
:44:15. > :44:19.Christian Coptic Orthodox Church. Worldwide there are 16 million
:44:19. > :44:23.Coptic Christians, with a large population in Egypt. Here in the UK
:44:23. > :44:28.little attention will be paid to the appointment, leading some to
:44:28. > :44:34.suggest we have too insular attitude towards religion. Many
:44:34. > :44:40.minority or new religions feel they are not taken as seriously as more
:44:40. > :44:49.established religions. Minority and spiritual movements such as
:44:49. > :44:58.Scientology can be the but of jokes or dirigs. Shouldn't we give
:44:59. > :45:02.smaller religions more thought? Members of established faiths argue
:45:02. > :45:07.a true religion is one which has stood the test of history and is
:45:07. > :45:11.based on the teachings of God or a prophet. They claim some of these
:45:11. > :45:18.new groups do not deserve to be called religions and dilute the
:45:18. > :45:24.power of what they need as a true religion. In the 2001, UK census
:45:24. > :45:29.almost 400,000 people listed their religion as Jedi Knight, making it
:45:29. > :45:33.the fourth biggest belief in the country. Does that make it a faith?
:45:33. > :45:38.In a modern world, should we embrace new and minority religions
:45:38. > :45:42.and treat them as equal as traditional faiths? Or should all
:45:42. > :45:49.believers unite under the traditional message of God?
:45:49. > :45:54.What do you think? You can join in by phone, text, e-mail or online.
:45:54. > :45:59.How inclusive or embracing should with be? If you think I will
:45:59. > :46:03.support Jedi Knights as being a religion - you are wrong. It is a
:46:03. > :46:07.natural humorous response to a draft census question. Some
:46:07. > :46:12.religions are dangerous. There are cults around and we must be very
:46:12. > :46:17.weary of people getting caught up in things that do real harm to them.
:46:17. > :46:23.And we can mention some - but I think I better be careful about the
:46:23. > :46:30.BBC's lawyers before going down that road. I would appreciate that.
:46:30. > :46:34.Your deaf -- definition of a cult not somebody else's!
:46:34. > :46:40.For example, the Church of Scientology has had a lot of
:46:40. > :46:43.criticism about itself and some of its beliefs. I personally have got
:46:43. > :46:50.reservations about President Romney's particularly faith. My own
:46:50. > :46:58.view is that it is the major historic religions and the Cops are
:46:58. > :47:04.a part of that - they are a may -- Coptics are a part of that. Age
:47:04. > :47:11.based on scripture in a sense the community of people worshiping God,
:47:11. > :47:16.as far as I am concerned a common God, not different Gods. Jedi
:47:16. > :47:21.Knights - if they exist in a few hundred years will that be more...
:47:21. > :47:25.I don't know what they believe in. They believe in a greater force of
:47:25. > :47:30.nature. Well, I completely disagree with
:47:30. > :47:35.the Bishop on the grounds that I think religion is completely a
:47:35. > :47:39.private thing. It is a pact between you and your God, if you happen to
:47:39. > :47:43.be religious or spiritual. Therefore the concept of equal
:47:43. > :47:48.status or no status does not apply because you should be having to be
:47:48. > :47:53.able to keep your religion private, away from the larger community.
:47:53. > :47:58.That is, for me, a real religion. It sort of demonstrates itself in
:47:58. > :48:03.the way you live n the way you act twartdz other people. That is a
:48:03. > :48:06.different -- towards other people. That is a different matter. People
:48:07. > :48:11.worshiping a particular God - all the criteria he has set down for
:48:11. > :48:17.the things which should be accepted as against those which should not
:48:17. > :48:21.be accepted. Could be destroyed, as you said, tomorrow. As religions
:48:21. > :48:28.develop over the years, what we consider to be a cult today may be
:48:28. > :48:31.a major religion tomorrow. Should all religions be able to have a
:48:31. > :48:37.peaceful co-existence and acceptance of each other?
:48:37. > :48:42.disagree with both. I would like to bring some theological intelligence
:48:42. > :48:51.here. This is a difficult subject. People scream bigotry and
:48:51. > :48:57.intolerance. It does not make any sense to me to find out that God -
:48:57. > :49:06.the only religion, found a claim to be God, left us with clear
:49:06. > :49:10.instructions, clear church and went back to heaven and said it does not
:49:10. > :49:18.matter what you believe, there were nice people on Earth before Christ
:49:18. > :49:23.came. What do you think - Hindus, Muslims? Hinduism is pre-Christian.
:49:23. > :49:28.Excuse me using this term, but this is the term that has always been
:49:28. > :49:36.used, Pagan religions, religions which do not adhere to Christ and
:49:36. > :49:44.Islam came 600-700 centuries after Christ. It beggars believe that God
:49:44. > :49:49.would send the Angel Gabriel to the virgin Mary to tell her she would
:49:49. > :49:54.be mother and then send him to the Prophet Mohammed and give him a
:49:54. > :50:00.different set of rules and whatever. It does not make any theological
:50:00. > :50:04.sense either. Either the Christian, as - Christianity is true in its
:50:05. > :50:10.original, not in liberal format. no room for Islam in your book? I
:50:10. > :50:13.am trying to understand what your.... Christianity is an
:50:13. > :50:18.absolute - God has, Christ is God and Christ founded the Church.
:50:18. > :50:25.Therefore, it does not seem to make sense to me that Christ left a
:50:25. > :50:33.whole sack ca mental system, a structure.... Can I interrupt you.
:50:34. > :50:36.An angel said... Apart from being told I belong to a Pagan religion -
:50:36. > :50:40.the question of equal status - that is the problem with that thing you
:50:40. > :50:44.have set out, then it is a question of competition, you know my
:50:44. > :50:48.religion is better than your religion. Can I just finish? As a
:50:48. > :50:53.result of which, what happens is that people begin to fight amongst
:50:53. > :50:58.each other. This is a very, very divisive premise that you have put
:50:58. > :51:08.forth, which is why I am saying that people should be allowed to
:51:08. > :51:13.worship whichever God they want, but in privacy. An Imam now joins
:51:13. > :51:23.us. You have heard Patricia McKeever saying only one true
:51:23. > :51:28.religion - if I can paraphrase. Your views? As a person who is a
:51:28. > :51:38.consultant for a Christian charity, campaigning in support of
:51:38. > :51:46.persecuted Chrison minorities in Muslim countries and has taken a
:51:46. > :51:53.stand against it the views do not correspond to the teaching of the
:51:53. > :51:57.Christian church. Pope pope expressed in article 3 of the Roman
:51:57. > :52:05.Catholic Church, views Muslims with respect, with respect and regards
:52:05. > :52:09.Muslims and Jews as worshiping the one same God, in Artle 4, the same
:52:09. > :52:16.declaration says the Church wishes to decry anti-Semitism against Jews
:52:16. > :52:19.and other faiths. Imam, thank you... They teach in
:52:19. > :52:24.the Vatican too. The Catholic Church is necessary for salvation
:52:24. > :52:28.and anyone who knows that and refuses to either enter or remain
:52:28. > :52:32.within the Church cannot be saved. Of course, we respect people. I am
:52:32. > :52:38.glad you mentioned that point. Respecting people is different from
:52:38. > :52:44.respecting their beliefs. Should we respect.... It is the same thing.
:52:44. > :52:54.How can you respect a person and not their beliefs? That is the
:52:54. > :53:01.
:53:01. > :53:06.basic premise! -- From the air time, from
:53:06. > :53:12.charitable status, tax breaks and so on - should that be afforded to
:53:12. > :53:15.all religious groups? To echo the previous speaker, I completely
:53:15. > :53:18.disagree with the suggestion that Christianity is the only religion
:53:18. > :53:22.and the only one worth talking about. That would be worth noting.
:53:22. > :53:26.For me, it is about representation. If you have somebody making up a
:53:26. > :53:31.religion in their garage which has an adhere rant population of
:53:31. > :53:36.precisely three, to suggest that they should have equal status is
:53:36. > :53:41.obviously ludicrous. So, what does equal status mean? Does it mean
:53:41. > :53:46.they should be included in the RE curriculum. Are we going to add
:53:46. > :53:50.Jedi to the curriculum? 400 members in the UK, I think is a bit of a
:53:50. > :53:54.joke. I mean that literally. People think it is a joke. But, the second,
:53:54. > :53:58.the third is to say, I also disagree with the idea that
:53:58. > :54:03.religion is a private undertaking. The reality is this country is
:54:03. > :54:07.shaped very largely by that Christian background. It's a
:54:07. > :54:13.country in which we have a commitment to Freedom and Justice
:54:13. > :54:18.and that grows out of our Christian background... I am afraid... I will
:54:18. > :54:22.come back to you in the studio. Let me bring in you because you can
:54:22. > :54:27.pick up on the point of battling for charitable status which would
:54:27. > :54:30.give you an equal status. You are one of the elders, you are one of
:54:30. > :54:34.the elders. You have been actively fighting for charity status. How
:54:34. > :54:37.much do you get involved and contribute to society? This is one
:54:37. > :54:42.of the arguments that if you are not prepared to do that why should
:54:42. > :54:49.you be given the same level as other religions? That is an
:54:49. > :54:53.interesting question. Thank you. The proposition that we live apart
:54:53. > :55:01.from society is just a ludicrous fallacy. It is absolute nonsense.
:55:01. > :55:05.We live at peace with all men. Our lives survive and progress in the
:55:05. > :55:11.mainstream of society. So, if you take an area like
:55:12. > :55:16.business, for instance, we have customers and employers.
:55:16. > :55:21.We have a lot of interaction with the world.
:55:21. > :55:26.And we've got into a fight with the Charity Commission, basically,
:55:26. > :55:32.because they are saying we are not for the public benefit.
:55:32. > :55:37.And there's lots of... And your fight continues. I know your fight
:55:37. > :55:42.continues. A final word to you - you believe Christianity, you need
:55:42. > :55:49.to evanlise and bring people the truth. Why does your truth take
:55:49. > :55:56.presidence over anybody elses? Catholic Church, is the Christian
:55:56. > :56:03.dispensation. That is where it is to be found. Christ said t only
:56:03. > :56:08.religious leader said, anyone akin to this - I am the way - no-one
:56:08. > :56:13.gets to heaven apart through me. If someone is saved they are saved
:56:13. > :56:16.through the merits of Christ. It is a theological nonsense to say
:56:16. > :56:22.there's... We don't all believe in the same God. We do not believe in
:56:22. > :56:28.the same God. This thing about we all have - Christ said before aib
:56:28. > :56:31.bra ham was, I am. -- Abraham was, I am. Thank you
:56:31. > :56:36.very much. We will have to come back to this. It has been a
:56:36. > :56:46.fascinating debate. Thank you for all your contributions. Your text
:56:46. > :56:47.
:56:47. > :56:56.and on line votes are in. Here is what you told us in our vote. 52%
:56:56. > :57:05.Right. So, why don't we get reaction. We have more time. Are
:57:05. > :57:08.you surprised by the quality of the poll? No. I am not. What the
:57:09. > :57:16.Cardinal said was unfortunate, to put it mildly. I am very angry with
:57:16. > :57:21.him because I feel he does not represent Christianity, as I
:57:21. > :57:23.understand it. It is reflected in that particular vote. I hope the
:57:23. > :57:28.Roman Catholic Church will learn that you cannot treat people who
:57:28. > :57:33.are members of our society with such abuse. I want to take up from
:57:33. > :57:36.this point and link it to what we were discussing earlier about
:57:36. > :57:39.religion being given equal status. I want to say it is important that
:57:39. > :57:44.people are treated equality and therefore their religions are
:57:44. > :57:48.treated as equally as possible. I want to leave the religion bit out
:57:49. > :57:58.of daily life and say we should emphasise more on other facilities
:57:59. > :57:59.
:57:59. > :58:04.like good hospitals, good schooling. What we do in society? Yes that
:58:04. > :58:13.equates one religion with the other. Thank you for your contributions
:58:13. > :58:16.and thank to you for taking part today, Bishop Stephen Lowe, Kishwar