:00:07. > :00:11.The escalation of violence in the Middle East has reached its 5th day,
:00:11. > :00:14.with an Israeli ground-attack looking imminent. Israel claims it
:00:14. > :00:24.has a right to protect people from militant rockets, launched from
:00:24. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:44.Gaza. Are they justified in their Good morning, I am a Samira Ahmed.
:00:44. > :00:47.Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. Self-defence or aggression?
:00:47. > :00:51.Israel's attacks on militants in Gaza has escalated tensions in the
:00:51. > :00:55.region. But are the military actions justified?
:00:55. > :00:58.This week, Google, Amazon and Starbucks revealed they pay a
:00:59. > :01:05.fraction of the corporation tax that one would expect in the UK.
:01:05. > :01:09.Clever, perfectly legal accounting, but is it moral? James Whale asks,
:01:09. > :01:14.why pick on them? So, hands up those of you who want to pay more
:01:14. > :01:19.tax than you legally have to? I thought not. So, why should major
:01:19. > :01:23.companies be any different? A new poll has revealed 73% of adults
:01:23. > :01:27.believe state faith schools should be prevented from selecting pupils
:01:27. > :01:32.on religious grounds. An attempt to stop discrimination, or an attack
:01:32. > :01:39.on religious freedom? My guests this week are Abdel Bari
:01:39. > :01:44.Atwan, London-based editor of an Arabic newspaper. He was born in
:01:44. > :01:48.Gaza and is a familiar commentator in the UK on Middle-Eastern issues.
:01:48. > :01:51.James Whale is a seasoned broadcaster. His acerbic and
:01:51. > :01:55.uncompromising style has won him fans and foes in equal measures.
:01:55. > :01:59.Charlie Wolf is the political commentator and broadcaster, a
:01:59. > :02:04.richly from Boston, he now calls Blunden his home. He has made it
:02:04. > :02:08.his mission, he says, to make waves on the UK air waves. We want to
:02:08. > :02:18.know what you think. If you have a webcam, you can join us on Skype.
:02:18. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:29.You can also give your views on David Cameron has added his voice
:02:29. > :02:33.to the latest crisis in the Middle East on the eve of what is now day
:02:33. > :02:37.five of the conflict. The Prime Minister made a call to Israeli
:02:37. > :02:41.counterparts, urging Binyamin Netanyahu to do anything possible
:02:41. > :02:45.to end the latest crisis. Israel maintains it has a right to defend
:02:45. > :02:49.itself against sustained rocket attacks from Gaza, targeting major
:02:49. > :02:54.cities including Tel Aviv and to Islam. The Palestinians have
:02:54. > :02:57.accused Israel of carrying out massacres in the latest strikes.
:02:57. > :03:00.This latest round of violence comes after the killing of the leader of
:03:00. > :03:04.the military wing of Hamas during a spate of air attacks launched on
:03:04. > :03:08.Gaza. The Israelis claim their attack was in response to months of
:03:09. > :03:12.sustained rocket fire launched by militants from Gaza. Since
:03:12. > :03:17.Wednesday, Israel has continued to launch rockets into the territory
:03:17. > :03:21.at what it describes as strategic targets, including weapons caches
:03:21. > :03:26.and Hamas buildings. Militants have fired rockets towards Israel's most
:03:26. > :03:30.populated city, Tel Aviv, and the disputed city, Jerusalem. Civilians
:03:30. > :03:34.have been killed on both sides. The Foreign Secretary William Hague
:03:34. > :03:38.made a statement calling on both sides to find a peaceful solution,
:03:38. > :03:42.but placing most of the blame on the Hamas and leadership in Gaza.
:03:42. > :03:46.have said that Hamas there's principal responsibility. Of course,
:03:46. > :03:50.there are responsibilities on all sides. The easiest ways to stop
:03:50. > :03:56.this is for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel. But we look to
:03:56. > :04:01.Israel, also, to act with caution and try to be escalate the crisis.
:04:01. > :04:05.With Israel calling up 75,000 reserve troops, there is mounting
:04:05. > :04:11.speculation that a ground offensive could be imminent. Israel says it
:04:11. > :04:14.has a right to defend its people from aggression by groups it
:04:14. > :04:19.considers terrorists. Others argue that Israel is the aggressor and
:04:19. > :04:24.should not use its vastly superior weapons to bully the Palestinians.
:04:24. > :04:28.So, his Israelite to target Hamas in Gaza, who they say launched
:04:28. > :04:32.indiscriminate attacks on the Israeli people? What they
:04:32. > :04:36.unjustified and in danger of escalating the crisis? -- or are
:04:36. > :04:40.they are justified. Justified, or in danger of
:04:40. > :04:43.escalating? Very much justified. States have a moral obligation to
:04:43. > :04:48.protect their people. Let's not forget, rockets have been fired
:04:48. > :04:51.into Israel for some time. It is only after it escalated, after
:04:51. > :04:55.about 150 rockets going into populated areas, that Israel
:04:55. > :05:01.rightly responded. With targeted, rather than indiscriminate response.
:05:01. > :05:07.That is the question for Alec text vote. Are the actions justified? If
:05:07. > :05:14.you think they are, text vote, followed by yes. If you disagree,
:05:14. > :05:17.text vote, followed by no. You can also vote on their website. You can
:05:17. > :05:22.also find full terms and conditions there. We will show how you voted
:05:22. > :05:27.at the end of the programme. Abdel Bari Atwan, you are from Gaza
:05:27. > :05:32.originally. You know the whole history of this troubled region. He
:05:32. > :05:38.can see why Israel has responded the way they have now? It is naked
:05:38. > :05:43.aggression. I was born in a refugee camp in Gaza. Gaza is 150 square
:05:43. > :05:47.miles, 2 million people are living there. They are under sanction,
:05:47. > :05:53.brutal sanctions for the last 10 years. This sanction is imposed by
:05:53. > :06:00.the Israelis. The Israeli army even counted the amount of calories,
:06:00. > :06:04.2225 calories per person, in order to keep people just alive. No food,
:06:04. > :06:08.no medicine... But these military strikes now are because of a rocket
:06:08. > :06:14.that have been fired out for months and months, aimed at civilians in
:06:14. > :06:19.Israel? When you say that, rockets hitting Israel, people imagine that
:06:19. > :06:25.thousands of Israelis were killed. For the last 10 years, only 17
:06:25. > :06:33.Israelis were killed by these rockets. On the other side,
:06:33. > :06:37.thousands of Palestinians were killed by Israeli warplanes and by
:06:37. > :06:43.the army. We have to put that into consideration, why Israel is
:06:43. > :06:48.attacking Gaza now. About 500 people were injured. See the
:06:48. > :06:51.proportion? There is a question about proportion? Proportion to
:06:51. > :06:54.intent. The reason not as many Israelis died is because the
:06:54. > :06:57.Israeli government spends a vast amount of money building bomb
:06:57. > :07:00.shelters. Hamas leaves their people in the open. It is a double war
:07:00. > :07:05.crime. Not only are they threatening Israelis with rockets,
:07:05. > :07:08.but by using their own people as human shields and putting rockets
:07:08. > :07:14.and the mosques, around schools, etc, Hamas is a threat to its own
:07:14. > :07:19.people. Human shield? Human shield?! You have money, billions
:07:19. > :07:26.from America and Britain to build shelters. People in Gaza, they have
:07:26. > :07:30.nothing, they are under sanctions. They are besieged by the Israelis.
:07:30. > :07:35.They are bombed! Just four years ago there was an Israeli invasion
:07:35. > :07:42.of Gaza. Hundreds of people were killed. Hold on... At don't say
:07:42. > :07:47.Israel has been under constant threat from terrorism. It is under
:07:47. > :07:51.constant threat from rocket attacks. The only reason that we see this
:07:51. > :07:58.partial blockade, because food and fuel get through, is to prevent
:07:58. > :08:01.bomb-making equipment getting him. -- getting in. We have long-range
:08:01. > :08:05.rockets threatening major population centres like Tel Aviv
:08:05. > :08:09.and Jerusalem. Christmas season is coming up and Israel has a right to
:08:09. > :08:14.prevent this. James, in Britain in particular we watch these
:08:14. > :08:20.situations arise. Both sides claim the moral superior position. What
:08:20. > :08:28.do you think? The justification argument? I think it is very sad.
:08:28. > :08:32.All I have seen over the past two days are pictures of dead children.
:08:32. > :08:37.There is no justification, on either side, as far as I am
:08:37. > :08:42.concerned. We were talking before, whatever you see on the screen,
:08:42. > :08:47.they can get on OK. They can talk and understand each other. That is
:08:47. > :08:50.what is going to happen. The problem with all walls is,
:08:51. > :08:57.basically, the people that live in Gaza, the people that live in
:08:57. > :09:02.Israel, the Israelis, Palestinians, of the people from the Middle East,
:09:02. > :09:06.they are very, very similar people. It is difficult to tell an Israeli
:09:06. > :09:11.and Palestinian apart, unless you spoke to them. Eventually, they
:09:11. > :09:17.have to be able to live together. But it is the politicians who are
:09:17. > :09:20.doing this. The politicians have got to be stopped. Let's get the
:09:21. > :09:23.response, there has been accusations that the timing is
:09:23. > :09:27.significant. If Hamas uses civilians as human shields, how
:09:27. > :09:33.will it help the situation if they capitalise on these kinds of
:09:33. > :09:38.attacks? Hamas, unfortunately, on a terrorist group. When they run
:09:38. > :09:42.people die, to Hamas, it is a propaganda plus. The what James has
:09:42. > :09:45.raised is that if you know all of this, and it has happened before,
:09:45. > :09:53.isn't the only way out of this negotiation? I truly wish that it
:09:54. > :09:58.was. You are going to have to talk. You will have to come together,
:09:58. > :10:03.they could do it in Northern Ireland... The Israelis would love
:10:03. > :10:08.to talk. Hamas states, we do not believe in peace conferences, we do
:10:08. > :10:12.not believe in negotiation. A mass's goal is the annihilation of
:10:12. > :10:17.Israel, plain and simple. That is a concern, that Hamas does not want
:10:17. > :10:25.to recognise the state of Israel? This is not true. Hamas offered the
:10:25. > :10:32.Israelis 50 years of truce, to have independent Palestinian state. What
:10:32. > :10:37.happened? There was a peace process, they renounced terrorism, conceded
:10:37. > :10:41.80% of historic plans to the Israelis, only to have 20%. A
:10:41. > :10:46.stayed on 20% of Palestine. What happened? We were rewarded with
:10:46. > :10:48.building settlements in the West Bank. The whole peace process,
:10:48. > :10:53.because of the right-wing Israeli government, was wrecked and
:10:53. > :10:59.destroyed completely. We had a 500,000 Jewish settlers now in the
:10:59. > :11:05.West Bank and Jerusalem. And no peace at all. Everybody is offering
:11:05. > :11:12.Israelis peace, but they are offering us bombardments, massacres,
:11:12. > :11:16.siege. Just one word, to trolley. He said, we imposed this siege, the
:11:16. > :11:20.Israelis imposed the sanctions so they could not manufacture weapons.
:11:20. > :11:26.One of the items the Israelis banned to import his coriander.
:11:26. > :11:30.Imagine, coriander. Can you manufacture a bomb from coriander?
:11:30. > :11:35.This is humiliation. The Israelis deliberately humiliate the
:11:35. > :11:40.Palestinian people. On top of that, massacring them. Today, my family,
:11:40. > :11:45.listen, Charlie... Of my family, I am in contact at five days for a
:11:45. > :11:54.time, with my family, my brothers and sisters in Gaza, to see who is
:11:54. > :11:58.dead and who is injured. This is brutal. You took our lands, our
:11:58. > :12:02.settlements. The aggression starts with Hamas, that is the unfortunate
:12:02. > :12:06.thing. As long as rockets are being fired, Israel has a right to stop
:12:07. > :12:12.those rockets and defend themselves. They are taking out missile sites.
:12:12. > :12:19.What about children? Children are dying. But you forget that there
:12:19. > :12:23.are enough films of Israeli pilots pulling out at the last minute.
:12:23. > :12:32.They answer to an independent judiciary. Hamas does not. The aim
:12:32. > :12:36.of Hamas is to kill. Another point that was raised was the humiliation.
:12:36. > :12:41.Hamas has even less to lose. Their previous experience is that Israel
:12:41. > :12:44.does in hard. Isn't that part of Israel's responsibility? You know
:12:45. > :12:49.how Hamas will respond, and yet they still do what will arguably
:12:49. > :12:54.give Hamas strength? You ask any military expert, if you do not
:12:54. > :12:59.respond, it empowers. And the humiliation argument, you don't buy
:13:00. > :13:03.that? It is humiliation and creates this situation? They are taking out
:13:03. > :13:10.rocket sites and to stabilise terrorists. That is all they are
:13:10. > :13:13.interesting in. -- destabilise. could they be made to stop slinging
:13:14. > :13:17.rockets to Israel all the time? That seems to be the factor that
:13:17. > :13:21.keeps this going on. Is there no way that there was any control over
:13:21. > :13:27.some of these people continually sending rockets? There is
:13:27. > :13:31.misunderstanding here. Hamas is not sending rockets, they are besieged
:13:31. > :13:40.by the Israelis for the last 10 years. The Israelis keep raiding
:13:40. > :13:47.Gaza. If you go to Gaza now, 150 square miles, the air is congested
:13:47. > :13:53.with F 16 jets, drones, unmanned drones. Can't they just stop firing
:13:53. > :13:58.the rockets? That a simple question, why not stop firing the rockets?
:13:58. > :14:02.Where is the independent Palestinian state? We must have
:14:02. > :14:08.estate. The Israelis cannot have the land and build settlements, and
:14:08. > :14:18.bomb us. If we could stop the rockets, the international
:14:18. > :14:28.
:14:28. > :14:33.community can lean on Israel to We have Dr Ghada Karmi or on the
:14:33. > :14:38.phone now. There is this idea, the trouble is Hamas are the ones
:14:38. > :14:44.who've been firing the rockets and they exploit the misery of Gazan
:14:44. > :14:50.civilians and UN not interested in stopping. In that sense, is
:14:50. > :14:59.Israel's action morally justified? Allow me to inject a note of
:14:59. > :15:04.reality into this debate. Let's get the context correct. The two sides,
:15:04. > :15:10.Israel and Gaza, are not equivalent. Let's get back clear. Israel is a
:15:10. > :15:14.very, very powerful state, it has a huge army, huge firepower. It is
:15:14. > :15:18.supported to the hilt. The heard that point made. Would you be able
:15:18. > :15:22.to contribute some other ideas beyond what has been discussed
:15:22. > :15:26.already, particularly this idea that Hamas are the ones exploiting
:15:26. > :15:31.the situation? Le to be clarified the context, I don't believe it has
:15:31. > :15:35.been clarified. On the other hand you have an impoverished enclave in
:15:35. > :15:40.the Mediterranean - overcrowded, impoverished, Little Megson, little
:15:40. > :15:45.food. If we dealt with it like that it would be different. Given where
:15:45. > :15:50.we are, how do you deal with it? You can't solve that overnight but
:15:50. > :15:53.you could stop the rocket attacks overnight. The idea that Hamas
:15:53. > :15:58.exploits the people and get something out of it is ridiculous.
:15:58. > :16:05.It makes Hamas out to be a kind of alien, a foreign body, like
:16:05. > :16:12.Martians. Hamas is part and parcel of Gaza. It is part and parcel of
:16:12. > :16:18.the Palestinian people. As a result, to talk about Hamas endangering its
:16:18. > :16:27.own people and not caring about them frankly shows an enormous
:16:27. > :16:33.prejudice against the Palestinian people. How do you stop it... Yes,
:16:33. > :16:40.Gaza is besieged by Israel. There's no question. For how do you stop
:16:40. > :16:45.it? It besiege is lifted, the rockets will stop. The rockets are
:16:45. > :16:50.not fired just for fun. They are fired because they are the only way
:16:50. > :16:58.that these poor people can show their frustration at what is
:16:58. > :17:04.happening. I just want to get a response to that. I will bring in
:17:04. > :17:12.Bortolami now. I hope you heard what was being said there. This is
:17:12. > :17:19.ultimately about frustration and being under siege. Let's make it
:17:19. > :17:24.clear, and the international law, militarily, any type of struggle,
:17:24. > :17:29.you cannot target civilians. Any justification to target civilians
:17:29. > :17:35.is immoral and is illegal. So Hamas, but there it is under siege or not,
:17:35. > :17:42.whether it is being bombarded or not, it cannot target civilians and
:17:42. > :17:46.any justification is illegal and immoral. Because we have limited
:17:46. > :17:51.time, I wanted to get your view particularly on the idea that given
:17:51. > :17:56.the Israeli military operation now, what can they hope to achieve by it
:17:56. > :18:04.if civilians and accidentally being affected in Gaza by his way the
:18:04. > :18:07.response? We would like the civilians not to allow Hamas to
:18:07. > :18:14.send rockets from their own buildings cover their own houses.
:18:14. > :18:18.The right now they can't stop that. We can do it on a military to
:18:18. > :18:23.military bases. I don't understand why Hamas don't target the Israeli
:18:23. > :18:27.military. While they hitting civilian areas? They don't target
:18:27. > :18:30.the military, it's not a justified target. It needs to be stopped
:18:30. > :18:35.immediately. The larger solution is required. For the immediate
:18:35. > :18:41.response, Israel is justified to take out all those mortars to take
:18:41. > :18:45.out all the military personnel, they are sending out the rockets.
:18:45. > :18:52.To stop the inflow. It could easily be bringing in food and medical
:18:52. > :18:55.supplies. That is the question. Ultimately, it is in Hamas'
:18:55. > :18:59.position to break the escalation and they've chosen not to. That
:18:59. > :19:05.could allow all the conditions you want to be negotiated on about
:19:05. > :19:15.improving the state. You are talking about Hamas as if it is a
:19:15. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:18.superpower. They have... As if they have 300 nuclear warheads. Talking
:19:18. > :19:23.about international law. His bombing children part of the
:19:23. > :19:30.international law? There is targeting civilians and not
:19:30. > :19:40.targeting civilians. In 10 years, 17 Israelis were killed. Now what
:19:40. > :19:43.was 55 Palestinians killed, many of them children. 90 % of children
:19:43. > :19:48.there are under care right now because every day they are having
:19:48. > :19:54.to run to bombs shelters in school. Hamas did come to power in
:19:54. > :20:00.elections. However, there was a coup when they were killing their
:20:00. > :20:05.own members. Let's not forget, many of the deaths happening in Gaza
:20:05. > :20:12.were Hamas officials going into hospital and having kangaroo courts
:20:12. > :20:19.and shooting and killing people. people were killed. In Gaza, the
:20:19. > :20:27.Israeli used phosphoric bombs. It is illegal. My nephews were killed
:20:27. > :20:32.and these bombardments. What is going to get the two of you, not
:20:32. > :20:36.you two, but the sides together. This arguing is just ridiculous.
:20:36. > :20:42.Eventually everybody either lives together on the planet or everybody
:20:42. > :20:46.is killed. Just a minute... What is going to bring you both together?
:20:46. > :20:56.There has to be some coming together because in the end you
:20:56. > :20:57.
:20:57. > :21:02.will just obliterate each other. It is ridiculous! Can I just bring in
:21:02. > :21:07.the vice-president of the General Union of Palestinian Students in
:21:07. > :21:12.Britain. From what you've heard, do you think it is time that Hamas
:21:12. > :21:19.could take the first step, stop firing rockets and negotiations
:21:19. > :21:23.could potentially go ahead? This conflict goes before the past five
:21:23. > :21:29.days of the Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip. It starts at the
:21:29. > :21:31.beginning of the Israeli occupation. I've just come back from the West
:21:31. > :21:39.Bank and witnessed a military checkpoints scattered all over
:21:39. > :21:46.Palestinian territories, making a simple journey... We need an answer
:21:46. > :21:49.on given where we are now, what can be done right now to drive to de
:21:49. > :21:55.escalate the situation? You can't just talk about the history now. A
:21:55. > :21:59.ceasefire by who? It's gone beyond the point of a ceasefire. The
:21:59. > :22:03.people of Gaza have been under siege for many years. They've been
:22:03. > :22:07.prevented from food, water or electricity, medical supplies,
:22:07. > :22:13.building materials. I need an answer on this specific question.
:22:13. > :22:18.What happens right now? It is up to Israel. Israel need to figure out a
:22:18. > :22:22.long-term solution. It is not good enough to just accuse Hamas of
:22:23. > :22:28.killing unarmed civilians when they use sophisticated weapons to
:22:28. > :22:34.bombard women, children, schools, mosques. Why can't you find the
:22:34. > :22:38.solution? Why don't you stop firing the rapids, then Israel can be
:22:38. > :22:41.encouraged not to retaliate? The Israeli army are going to go into
:22:41. > :22:44.the West Bank, they are going to send all their troops in and the
:22:44. > :22:47.whole thing is going to be a mess. All that's going to happen is
:22:47. > :22:54.people are going to be killed on both sides. Eventually, you will
:22:54. > :22:58.all have to talk to each other. Why don't you talk now? Sam Weststrop
:22:58. > :23:02.is on the line-out. James is making the point a lot of people are
:23:02. > :23:07.thinking. If there was just a stop in the military action now,
:23:07. > :23:12.negotiations would be the only solution. That would be more
:23:12. > :23:15.advanced. Let's remember we are dealing with a terror group that is
:23:15. > :23:20.dedicated to destruction and violence. The very idea of that
:23:20. > :23:25.associations... So you are going to kill every Palestinian until you've
:23:25. > :23:29.completely finished it, is that what you are saying? You've got to
:23:29. > :23:33.kill every Palestinian, while my included in that? Not you, but is
:23:34. > :23:37.that what you are suggesting? Absolutely not, it's absurd. This
:23:37. > :23:40.is part of this ludicrous distortion of the word
:23:40. > :23:43.proportionality. To complain that Israel's response is
:23:43. > :23:48.disproportionate is to hold Israel to a standard that we hold no other
:23:48. > :23:52.country. It may be true that amass' rockets don't kill a huge number of
:23:52. > :23:58.civilians, but their failure to kill does not absolve them of their
:23:58. > :24:06.intention to kill. Even the UN admits... James, you have to let
:24:06. > :24:10.them speak. We are all saying the same thing. The ratio of a civilian
:24:10. > :24:18.to combat deaths was the lowest in asymmetric conflict in the history
:24:18. > :24:22.of warfare. Sam, what I need from you is an Ansar on the immediate
:24:22. > :24:27.action. Should Israel stop this military operation, would that be
:24:27. > :24:32.the step forward, or is it up to Hamas to make the first move?
:24:32. > :24:37.Israel doesn't just have a duty, it has a democratic Jock -- duty. The
:24:37. > :24:41.only next step can -- that can take place is the cessation of firing
:24:41. > :24:45.rockets from Hamas. If you want violence to stop, you have to stop
:24:45. > :24:50.Hamas. I appreciate that it's a very difficult issue but I'd rather
:24:51. > :25:00.we had this discussion and tried to avoid it, because it is at the
:25:01. > :25:02.
:25:02. > :25:07.Are Israel's military actions justified? If you think they are,
:25:07. > :25:17.text the word bulb followed by yes, if not, text the word vote followed
:25:17. > :25:24.
:25:24. > :25:28.You have about 20 minutes before We will leave that one behind us.
:25:28. > :25:32.This week, three global giants faced a grilling by MPs on the
:25:32. > :25:36.issue of tax avoidance. Those representing Google, Amazon and
:25:36. > :25:40.Starbucks admitted the companies used favourable European tax
:25:40. > :25:44.jurisdictions to avoid a heavy UK tax bill. Such feelings are above
:25:44. > :25:48.board but the committee chair was keen to ask that whilst their
:25:48. > :25:53.actions were and illegal, were they immoral? James Whale things
:25:53. > :25:59.morality has nothing to do with it. Hands up those of you who want to
:25:59. > :26:02.pay more tax than you legally have to. I thought not! So why should
:26:02. > :26:07.to. I thought not! So why should major companies be any different?
:26:07. > :26:12.It is all very well for Vince Cable to bleat on about systematic abuse
:26:12. > :26:18.of the tax system by these big corporations. But they do pay tax,
:26:18. > :26:22.corporation tax, VAT, national insurance, to name but three. We
:26:22. > :26:27.may consider these companies are not paying enough tax, but it's not
:26:27. > :26:35.their fault. It is the fault of the government, who don't change the
:26:35. > :26:39.law. So who devised the tax system? The government. So why aren't we
:26:39. > :26:43.questioning their more Aldi? The reality is we need to be able to
:26:43. > :26:50.attract the big multinationals to Arab country to employ our workers
:26:50. > :26:54.and invest. -- to our country. That is what our tax laws do. So stop
:26:54. > :26:57.these crocodile tears. What would your moral high ground when we are
:26:57. > :27:04.waving bye-bye to international investors and ultimately thousands
:27:04. > :27:10.of UK jobs. You can join in the conversation at home on Twitter,
:27:10. > :27:17.flown, text or e-mail. We are joined by the actor and comedian
:27:17. > :27:21.Nina Wadia, she now makes us laugh and cry as the Zaynab Masood, one
:27:21. > :27:27.of EastEnders' most endearing characters. We are also joined by
:27:27. > :27:30.Jonathan Bartley, from the Christian think-tank Ekklesia. We
:27:30. > :27:35.saw that grilling of those executives. What they are doing is
:27:35. > :27:38.perfectly legal, so why bring morality into it? We said the same
:27:38. > :27:44.thing about the banks. What they're doing is illegal, no harm will come
:27:44. > :27:48.of it. Look what happened. We've clamped down, I think wrongly, on
:27:48. > :27:51.so-called benefit scroungers. We should come down on the corporate
:27:51. > :27:56.scroungers. It is costing us a lot of money, a lot of money is leading
:27:56. > :27:59.the economy and going abroad to avoid tax. We are supplying them
:27:59. > :28:02.with a workforce through our education system and health care
:28:02. > :28:06.system, and they are not paying back into it. They're getting
:28:06. > :28:09.something for nothing. Yes, they pay their tax and national
:28:09. > :28:12.insurance, which goes to employees' pensions. Repay VAT on their goods.
:28:12. > :28:18.But they are not contributing anything back to the economy in
:28:18. > :28:22.return for what they are getting. It's only right they do sell.
:28:22. > :28:25.said it all. No, because the government has made a big thing
:28:25. > :28:29.about fairness on something like welfare. Why should people not be
:28:29. > :28:34.paying their fair share? Then changed the law. That is what
:28:34. > :28:38.politicians do. Do you pay more tax than you have to? Do you say,
:28:38. > :28:42.listen, I really feel I should give a few extra quid each month to the
:28:42. > :28:46.taxman because that would be morally right? A Labour government
:28:46. > :28:51.as much as the Conservative government chose to let companies
:28:51. > :28:56.set up these schemes which are all legal. At that is the argument. You
:28:56. > :29:00.got one set of morals and one set of laws. You can't say that it's
:29:00. > :29:06.something is legally OK to do, that doesn't mean it's morally right to
:29:06. > :29:11.do. They need to bend change the law to be moral. Quite right.
:29:11. > :29:14.want to bring in Jamie Whyte, a financial blogger. A bit of
:29:14. > :29:19.clarification on exactly why Starbucks and Amazon and Google are
:29:19. > :29:23.able to pay what seems like a very small amount of corporation tax in
:29:23. > :29:32.particular, on very large sales in the UK. Could you briefly explain
:29:32. > :29:37.that? British companies like John The first thing to recognise is
:29:38. > :29:41.that sales are not relevant, profits are. What you can do if you
:29:41. > :29:45.are a multinational is that you can make internal charges within the
:29:45. > :29:51.company. You have an operating firmly in the UK, does it make a
:29:51. > :29:57.profit or not? Well, you can have another operating company in
:29:57. > :30:01.another country, that charges the UK. For example, Starbucks buys its
:30:02. > :30:06.coffee from a Starbucks company in the Netherlands. I think it is the
:30:06. > :30:10.Netherlands. I think it might be Switzerland. They can shift profits
:30:10. > :30:14.around internally, and let the profits occur in the country with
:30:15. > :30:18.the lowest corporate tax rate. That is how you pull it off. You used
:30:18. > :30:23.the phrase pull it off, that's quite interesting. It looks like
:30:23. > :30:26.it's an attempt to subvert, rather than an attempt to play fair. The
:30:26. > :30:29.coffee doesn't have to go through Switzerland, it is going through
:30:29. > :30:36.Switzerland because the tax regime there is favourable. Should we not
:30:36. > :30:38.be questioning that? No, I think they have a duty to put it through
:30:38. > :30:43.the country with the most favourable tax regime. If they
:30:43. > :30:47.didn't, it would be like saying I am going to buy the coffee beans
:30:47. > :30:50.from the most expensive provider. That would be insane. You have a
:30:51. > :30:56.duty to shareholders to operate at the lowest possible cost. Tax is
:30:56. > :30:58.just another cost. Take on the specific point that John Lewis made,
:30:58. > :31:03.British businesses are being crippled because they are paying
:31:03. > :31:06.all UK taxes and cannot undercut on prices. They are being driven out
:31:06. > :31:13.by multinationals like Amazon, which do not pay their fair share.
:31:13. > :31:17.That it's not a genuine free market? Well, it's ridiculous to
:31:17. > :31:23.talk about free markets in the area of taxation. People don't pay taxes
:31:23. > :31:29.voluntarily. Multinationals have an advantage that national companies
:31:29. > :31:34.don't, in their ability to do all sorts of things, including tax. You
:31:34. > :31:37.can get rid of that advantage, only by having extremely low corporate
:31:37. > :31:42.tax rates so that domestic companies are not particularly
:31:42. > :31:51.burdened. There is really almost no way that you are going to eliminate
:31:52. > :31:56.a disadvantage that multinational companies have. -- eliminate this
:31:56. > :31:59.advantage. We could choose not to consume, a lot of people buy from
:31:59. > :32:06.these companies because they know it is cheaper. Isn't it up to
:32:06. > :32:11.consumers to deal with it? Yes, it is, but a point coming up with that,
:32:11. > :32:15.what happens to franchise owners? Do they get affected? Franchise
:32:15. > :32:23.owners of Starbucks, that is a question for you. Surely it must be
:32:23. > :32:31.troublesome for them? franchisee has to pay tax on his
:32:31. > :32:36.earnings, or hurt earnings. -- hurt earnings. Corporations don't really
:32:36. > :32:39.exist, ultimately it is the people that they are the cost,
:32:39. > :32:44.shareholders, employees or customers. Corporate tax is a very
:32:44. > :32:48.complicated kind of tax. There are all sorts of tricks that people can
:32:48. > :32:55.play to reduce their recorded profits. It is a terrible tide of
:32:55. > :32:59.tax altogether. My recommendation is to eliminate corporate taxation,
:32:59. > :33:04.tax people once they extracted as personal income or just keep it as
:33:05. > :33:10.sales tax. That would help local businesses be more profitable and
:33:10. > :33:13.compete better. It's nonsense that you can't do it, of course you have
:33:14. > :33:18.can. You just say, you have to declare all of your profits in the
:33:18. > :33:22.country, we identify what they are and levelled the rate. We have one
:33:22. > :33:25.independent trade on Streatham High Road, he has not got the same way
:33:25. > :33:29.of competing against the multinational coffee train next
:33:29. > :33:35.door. So we changed the law and allow those independents, because I
:33:35. > :33:39.want to see more of them coming back, we give them a way to do that
:33:39. > :33:44.by changing the law. The idea that this government has been making his
:33:44. > :33:47.policy for decades in a vacuum, it hasn't. It's been getting the
:33:47. > :33:50.multinationals to advise and set the terms. The Government hasn't
:33:50. > :33:54.made it easier for small, independent companies. The
:33:54. > :33:57.Government could have done that a long time ago. Why hasn't it?
:33:57. > :34:04.Because the multinationals have had such a vested interest and have
:34:04. > :34:10.been calling the shots. We need a democratic representation. What we
:34:10. > :34:17.need is the number of accountants that the corporation's use, and use
:34:17. > :34:20.them to be our accountants. I want to bring in Molly Solomons, from a
:34:20. > :34:25.campaign group set up in the last few years, particularly focused on
:34:25. > :34:28.the way that the Government welfare cuts are being implemented. This
:34:28. > :34:32.whole idea of fairness. It is all perfectly legal what companies like
:34:32. > :34:42.Google, Amazon and Starbucks are doing. If you don't like it, people
:34:42. > :34:45.
:34:45. > :34:49.That is one option. As people on the panel have said, it is just so
:34:49. > :34:53.important to change the law. Corporations are dodging billions
:34:53. > :34:57.and billions in tax, while the Government is choosing to cut a
:34:57. > :35:00.vital services for the people that live in the UK. That's not right.
:35:00. > :35:06.There are alternatives to these cuts and tax avoidance is one. I
:35:06. > :35:11.pay my tax, my mum pays her tax. Why are these huge corporations not
:35:11. > :35:15.paying theirs? Well, they are. Everything is legal. They have
:35:15. > :35:20.better lawyers and accountants and have found clever ways to avoid
:35:20. > :35:25.paying as much as small businesses do. Yes, that is also not very fair.
:35:25. > :35:29.But the Government should be doing their thing to clampdown on tax
:35:29. > :35:33.avoidance. At the moment, it is legal. But let's remember that the
:35:33. > :35:37.vote for women was once illegal. The law can change and it should
:35:37. > :35:40.change to reflect changes in society, technology etc. We are
:35:41. > :35:44.demanding that the Government clampdown on tax avoidance and use
:35:44. > :35:51.the money to invest in the UK economy and the UK people. I want
:35:51. > :35:54.to bring in Jonathan. There is a concern, there are plans for
:35:54. > :35:58.boycotts and occupations of Starbucks branches, the thousands
:35:58. > :36:01.of people working there are paying their taxes. These are jobs that
:36:01. > :36:04.have been created by these companies. Why target them when you
:36:04. > :36:09.can see there is real economic difficulty? The workers are losing
:36:09. > :36:13.out. All of the profits are being moved abroad. The money goes out of
:36:13. > :36:17.the country, the workers get the bare minimum. There are some
:36:17. > :36:20.British companies that pay workers a share of the profits. If there
:36:20. > :36:23.are no profits being declared, the workers do not get any of those
:36:23. > :36:27.profits. Workers are in a worse position because the money is going
:36:27. > :36:30.abroad, the profits are not staying in the economy. They are also not
:36:30. > :36:34.getting the benefits of the health system, the education system, which
:36:34. > :36:37.they would otherwise be getting. The I need to ask you something,
:36:37. > :36:41.James. The thing about Starbucks in particular, they make a big thing
:36:41. > :36:45.about their contribution to the community, a charity work,
:36:45. > :36:50.Fairtrade. It does matter to them, the image that they give out. They
:36:50. > :36:53.claim to care about fairness. In that sense, isn't it morally
:36:53. > :36:57.responsible for them to say, actually, we know we are not paying
:36:57. > :37:03.as much as we should and we should perhaps pay a little bit more? More
:37:03. > :37:09.than 2.5%, which is all that one of these corporations paid, Amazon, in
:37:09. > :37:15.corporation tax, on turnover of nearly �4 billion? My family have a
:37:15. > :37:19.small coffee shop, a restaurant. We would dearly like the Government to
:37:19. > :37:24.make it easier for small, independent companies to survive.
:37:24. > :37:27.And they are not. Now, why are we turning our attention onto
:37:28. > :37:32.businesses? They are big businesses. If you want to say to them, we
:37:32. > :37:38.don't want you in the country, say it. They can go. Great, I don't
:37:38. > :37:40.mind at all. But all this rubbish... Just a Minute, all of this rubbish
:37:40. > :37:43.about having a go at these people because they are doing something
:37:44. > :37:48.immoral. What they are doing is running their businesses like any
:37:48. > :37:53.of us, the best way that they can. I don't want to pay more tax than I
:37:53. > :37:58.have to, nor do you. I'm not claiming everything that I do is
:37:58. > :38:01.Fairtrade. Do you buy this idea that you can change the law if you
:38:01. > :38:05.want to, otherwise leave them alone? Or do you think it matters
:38:05. > :38:08.that they have a public image about fairness? Morally, it is wrong.
:38:08. > :38:12.Legally, we cannot do anything about it unless the law changes.
:38:12. > :38:17.You have to change the law. You cannot sail the one hand what they
:38:17. > :38:21.are doing is really, really awful, but what they are doing is
:38:21. > :38:26.following the letter of the law. think you can make a moral judgment.
:38:26. > :38:33.My dad, growing up, he always paid his taxes. He was a doctor in the
:38:33. > :38:36.NHS, he had a little bit of extra money and he they share that the
:38:37. > :38:39.Inland Revenue you exactly what he got and he would declare that taxed.
:38:39. > :38:46.There are many people in this country that do want to pay their
:38:46. > :38:51.tax, do want to declare it. Why do these corporations get away with
:38:52. > :38:55.it? You lobby, you are in the right place. I will lobby, it doesn't
:38:55. > :38:58.make it right. The big bosses, they are not in it together with the
:38:58. > :39:01.rest of us and they are the ones with the share options. They often
:39:02. > :39:06.worth much more than their salaries and it benefits them to get the
:39:06. > :39:14.maximum shareholder profit and not pay tax? You are all looking into
:39:14. > :39:22.the wrong way. You're just playing devil's advocate, you know. Pot,
:39:22. > :39:27.kettle! I am just telling you... you think banks behave morally?
:39:27. > :39:32.They put us in a financial crisis, behaving neatly, but immorally.
:39:32. > :39:38.you think there were acting immorally? I think they behave how
:39:38. > :39:43.they felt that they should behave. Everybody took advantage of it.
:39:43. > :39:47.can't agree, we have to leave it. Bring in politicians, tell them off.
:39:47. > :39:56.One thing you have all agreed on is that politicians could and should
:39:56. > :40:00.change the law on tax. A couple of viewers' comments. Neil says, as
:40:00. > :40:05.well as there are loopholes they will be exploited. The blame lies
:40:05. > :40:07.at the feet of the Inland Revenue. They created the rules, they are
:40:07. > :40:12.responsible and they are cutting jobs in terms of inspectors, which
:40:12. > :40:16.might have an effect in terms of catching tax avoidance.
:40:16. > :40:21.Later, should state funded faith schools be banned from selecting
:40:21. > :40:30.their pupils on religious grounds? Or would an open-door policy for
:40:30. > :40:37.all be an attack on faith itself? You can make your views known
:40:37. > :40:47.online or on the phone. And the current poll colour are Israel's
:40:47. > :40:58.
:40:59. > :41:03.It is time for the moral moments part of the programme. We have
:41:03. > :41:08.chosen two big stories. First, the appalling case of this young woman
:41:08. > :41:11.who died in Galway hospital, was having a miscarriage. Clearly, she
:41:11. > :41:15.asked for an abortion because the foetus was going to die and she
:41:15. > :41:19.died herself because she was told she could not have an abortion.
:41:19. > :41:24.Apparently, they were told, this is a Catholic country. Mass protests
:41:24. > :41:29.yesterday. What is your view? honestly sympathise with the family.
:41:29. > :41:34.First, it is sad that this poor woman has died and it should
:41:34. > :41:38.actually be about her. But it has turned into, of course, the
:41:38. > :41:44.abortion row. This, to me, is clearly a combination of medical
:41:44. > :41:47.negligence, absolutely, and Irish abortion laws. They need to sort
:41:48. > :41:51.all that out. At the end of the day, this woman should not have died.
:41:51. > :41:56.She should have come first, regardless of what the law says.
:41:56. > :41:59.She should have been taken care of. It's interesting, there is a
:41:59. > :42:02.dispute that apparently she could, it seems, have had an abortion
:42:02. > :42:06.under Irish law. But there are so much confusion that the doctors
:42:06. > :42:11.decided they could not intervene until the foetus had died? I hope
:42:11. > :42:15.they are actually struck off, jailed, quite frankly. I think it's
:42:15. > :42:18.appalling. Listen, I don't like religion, as you know. I think
:42:18. > :42:23.organised religion has a lot to answer for a round the world. That
:42:23. > :42:31.is appalling. I sympathise, diet with those people demonstrating in
:42:31. > :42:34.Ireland. It should be up to a woman herself to decide. -- I am with
:42:34. > :42:37.those people demonstrating. This is homicide, really. The investigation
:42:37. > :42:43.is under way, we don't know what happened, so we cannot comment on
:42:43. > :42:46.what is the case. But it has raised a great deal of concern about
:42:46. > :42:50.Ireland's abortion laws. I want to bring you in to comment on your
:42:50. > :42:58.other story, as well, Adrian Smith, he happens to be a Christian, he
:42:58. > :43:02.won a case with a breach of contract with an employer, he was
:43:02. > :43:09.demoted after posting a comment on gay marriage on Facebook?
:43:09. > :43:13.believed that Turkey should not be forced to perform gay marriages.
:43:13. > :43:16.What is fascinating is Peter Tatchell, well-known human rights
:43:16. > :43:20.campaigner, gay rights campaigner, he was actually willing to speak up
:43:20. > :43:23.for him and praised the decision. There are a lot of his case is
:43:23. > :43:27.going on about Christine discrimination. The overwhelming
:43:27. > :43:32.majority are bogus. But in a few cases, and Peter Tatchell has done
:43:32. > :43:35.this on a number of occasions, he has said that we need to protect
:43:35. > :43:38.freedom of speech. There is an important issue about people's
:43:38. > :43:41.rights to say what they believe. I don't agree with your position, I
:43:41. > :43:46.sometimes think you're position is bigoted, but I respect your right
:43:46. > :43:49.to take it. I wish more Christians would follow his example and extend
:43:49. > :43:54.the kind of hand of friendship across this barrier. I'm struck by
:43:54. > :43:57.the fact that what had happened to him, his salary was cut by 40%, he
:43:57. > :44:03.was demoted. It looked quite shocking, how he was treated in
:44:03. > :44:08.what the judge said was... Well, he justified it by saying it was free
:44:08. > :44:11.speech and it was disproportionate. Are you surprised? I was,
:44:11. > :44:15.apparently it was against the code of conduct of the trust he was
:44:15. > :44:20.working for. I think the line that shocked me was that he wrote that,
:44:20. > :44:24.you know, whatever he feels, he feels that it is an equality too
:44:24. > :44:30.far to have gay men get married in a church. What gives him the right
:44:30. > :44:35.to say that? On a private Facebook page. Well, it's not really private.
:44:35. > :44:39.You put something on Facebook... That a good point. A lot of other
:44:40. > :44:43.situations with people, if you go one Facebook, Twitter, you have to
:44:43. > :44:46.understand you are broadcasting and you're subjected to the same rules
:44:46. > :44:56.we are on the television. A lot of people are discovering that this
:44:56. > :44:57.
:44:57. > :45:07.Art Israel's military attacks just a fad? Please don't text because
:45:07. > :45:08.
:45:08. > :45:11.your botha macro won't count. We This week, a national survey found
:45:11. > :45:16.almost three-quarters of adults are in favour of overhauling the way
:45:16. > :45:19.state-funded fate schools select their pupils. But just choosing
:45:19. > :45:22.pupils according to what religion they belong to amount to
:45:22. > :45:26.discrimination, and would removing that might be an attack on
:45:26. > :45:29.religious freedom? Faith schools include some of the
:45:29. > :45:33.most popular and academic success than in the country. Many parents
:45:33. > :45:36.will do almost anything to get their children into them. However,
:45:36. > :45:39.many find the doors closed and their faces because they do not
:45:39. > :45:44.belong to a faith. Now what campaign group called the Accord
:45:44. > :45:48.Coalition is trying to stop schools selecting pupils based on religion.
:45:48. > :45:52.Many believers say this amounts to an attack not only on tradition but
:45:52. > :45:56.on faith itself. They claim it is vital children learn about their
:45:56. > :46:00.religion from their curriculum and by mixing with children of the same
:46:00. > :46:05.fate. Many parents argue it is not their religion is a prerequisite to
:46:05. > :46:07.get your child through the doors of the best church schools. And those
:46:07. > :46:13.opposed to faith schools say more mixed environments help prevent
:46:13. > :46:17.racism, homophobia and segregation. Some atheist campaigners, such as
:46:17. > :46:23.Richard Dawkins, even regard faith schools as a form of brainwashing.
:46:23. > :46:26.But those who support faith schools say they are at the heart of a
:46:26. > :46:29.healthy multicultural society that respect parental choice. So should
:46:29. > :46:35.schools be allowed to choose according to a child's religion, or
:46:35. > :46:43.is it time to end such selection? You can join in by webcam or phone,
:46:43. > :46:47.text, e-mail or online. We welcome back Charlie Wolf. Do you have a
:46:47. > :46:53.faith background, have been chosen to give your children a faith
:46:53. > :46:56.upbringing? No, my kids do not go to a fate school. They go to a
:46:56. > :47:00.multicultural school. They learn about all different types of faith.
:47:00. > :47:05.I love that they do that. And you wouldn't send them to a faith
:47:05. > :47:08.school? I wouldn't, not that we have one. If you have one and was
:47:08. > :47:12.doing really well in the league tables? The bid was a good school
:47:12. > :47:16.it would be a different matter. At the end of the day, I'm quite happy
:47:16. > :47:19.they are going to a school where it is truly multicultural. They do get
:47:19. > :47:25.to learn about other religions and other points of view and get to
:47:25. > :47:28.make up their own minds. I want them to grow up and decide for
:47:28. > :47:34.themselves. We live in a country where there are so much tension
:47:34. > :47:37.around religion and division. You look at America, where you are from
:47:37. > :47:41.a rich elite, where 40 or 50 years ago there was this terrible racial
:47:41. > :47:45.segregation. Why should we be encouraging religious segregation?
:47:45. > :47:50.It's all about choice. I have a son that goes to whey-faced school. My
:47:50. > :47:55.main motivator wasn't so much faith, I knew he would get a better
:47:55. > :48:00.secular education. British state education scares me. To be fair,
:48:00. > :48:05.yours is a particular case because your child is not in a state faith
:48:05. > :48:09.school. You're right. It would be nice to have the extra resources,
:48:09. > :48:15.but I don't want any more politically correct fluff being
:48:15. > :48:18.showered on us, we get enough already, even in a face school. He
:48:18. > :48:23.gets a better education. I'm proud that he is learning of his Jewish
:48:23. > :48:27.heritage, even though it was an afterthought. It has not harmed him.
:48:27. > :48:33.They have an ethos that talks about their community and other people.
:48:33. > :48:37.We live in a diverse community. His two best friends are two so Malian
:48:37. > :48:40.girls living down the street from us. If it's what parents want for
:48:40. > :48:47.their child's upbringing? Charlie talked about toys. Our local
:48:47. > :48:53.primary school is a fake school, so we didn't really have a choice. --
:48:53. > :48:58.faith school. We had to go there, so I got stuck in, became a school
:48:58. > :49:02.governor, tried to get them to change the admissions policy, but
:49:02. > :49:06.they didn't. There are some good faith schools and some bad, but the
:49:06. > :49:10.fact in the round, church schools take fewer children eligible for
:49:10. > :49:15.free school meals, they take fewer children with special educational
:49:15. > :49:19.needs. Stonewall studies tend to suggest there's an increase in
:49:19. > :49:21.homophobic bullying. All the statistics suggest that this
:49:21. > :49:26.negative discrimination in employment in admissions isn't good.
:49:26. > :49:34.When I was a governor of the school, we have advertised price just to
:49:34. > :49:38.get a decent colour of head teacher. -- advertised twice to get a decent
:49:38. > :49:41.colour back of head teacher, because we asked for a Christian to
:49:41. > :49:44.be the head teacher of the school. And yet you are saying the schools
:49:44. > :49:50.tend to do better. And I'm not saying that, they don't tend to do
:49:50. > :49:54.better. Many faith schools do well in some areas. I want to bring in
:49:54. > :49:58.Neil Hamilton, he is a former Conservative MP, but he also
:49:58. > :50:05.happens to be a former teacher in the Catholic School. Why do you
:50:05. > :50:11.think faith schools often seem to do better academically? In general,
:50:11. > :50:16.there is a great sense of discipline and attentiveness to
:50:16. > :50:20.detail. In schools which have that kind of background. It is a
:50:20. > :50:24.generalisation, and all generalisations, including this one,
:50:24. > :50:28.are false in a sense. Nevertheless, I think the atmosphere of a faith
:50:28. > :50:33.school is often very different from one which isn't. Particularly that
:50:33. > :50:36.is true in inner cities. Neil, did you ever feel guilty when you were
:50:36. > :50:41.a teacher about the children who happened not to be Catholic and
:50:41. > :50:46.therefore could not get a place at your school? I taught at a direct
:50:46. > :50:51.grant school, they were abolished in the 70s. They have a certain
:50:51. > :51:01.proportion of their pupils who were paid for by the local authority. We
:51:01. > :51:05.did have a wide catchment area. It wasn't entirely Catholic pupils. I
:51:05. > :51:10.wasn't a Catholic myself, even though I'd taught in the school. We
:51:10. > :51:15.taught a wide range of curriculum. Religious studies involved learning
:51:15. > :51:20.about other variants of Christian faiths as well. Why do you think it
:51:20. > :51:24.is that in the round, faith schools take fewer children from deprived
:51:24. > :51:28.backgrounds, and quoting 2009 House of Commons Library report, which is
:51:28. > :51:35.generally a source of impartial information I have no idea and I
:51:35. > :51:40.don't care, quite frankly! I rest my case. To me, this is all about
:51:40. > :51:44.parental choice. It is all part of a free society. What you are
:51:44. > :51:46.complaining about is actually one of the ill effects of the
:51:46. > :51:51.nationalisation of education. That's the trouble with this
:51:51. > :51:54.country. Parents who have to send their children to state schools, if
:51:54. > :51:59.they have the purchasing power to choose for themselves and have the
:51:59. > :52:05.same freedoms as richer people, you wouldn't have these problems.
:52:05. > :52:09.one to bring in Andrew Penman, a journalist. What we haven't
:52:09. > :52:12.discussed openly is how many parents in this country by about
:52:12. > :52:18.religion to go to church to try to get their kit into the good faith
:52:18. > :52:22.School in the neighbourhood. Tell me what happened with you.
:52:22. > :52:26.certainly did not want my children to have a faith education, I'm not
:52:26. > :52:29.a big fan of indoctrinating children. I simply wanted them to
:52:29. > :52:33.go to their local state school. This state school was the opposite
:52:33. > :52:36.side of the road from where I live in south-west London at the time,
:52:36. > :52:39.but living that Close was no guarantee of getting a place
:52:40. > :52:43.because one of the many religions we have in this country, the Church
:52:43. > :52:47.of England, had decreed that half of all places would go to the
:52:47. > :52:51.children of people who were Anglicans or, like me, were
:52:51. > :52:55.prepared to fake it being an Anglican. New have a system in
:52:55. > :52:59.which a large chunk of the population is discriminated against,
:53:00. > :53:05.denied a choice. I was denied the choice of getting my children into
:53:05. > :53:08.their local state school unless I faked being Anglican. And you did?
:53:08. > :53:13.You could say it is fair enough that half of the places in that
:53:13. > :53:16.school went to the children of Anglicans, if Anglican families
:53:16. > :53:19.paid for half the teachers - but they didn't. The salaries of
:53:20. > :53:26.everyone in that school was paid for by all taxpayers. My reasoning
:53:26. > :53:31.was, why should some taxpayers be discriminated against, like I was?
:53:31. > :53:35.I want to put what you raised to another contributor. David Conway
:53:35. > :53:39.is a research fellow at Civitas and all that reports on the issue of
:53:39. > :53:44.faith schools. It can't be right that British parents are having to
:53:44. > :53:49.live to try and get their kids a decent education. That is a system
:53:49. > :53:57.problem, isn't it? It can't be right but the fact is, contrary to
:53:57. > :54:02.what the man who did lie said, faith communities who sponsor faith
:54:02. > :54:09.schools, do pay a substantial premium for being able to have
:54:09. > :54:15.those schools in the form of 10 % of capital costs. Therefore there
:54:15. > :54:19.is no extra money per head per child spent by the state on
:54:19. > :54:22.voluntary-aided schools. Bat is a technical argument. What about the
:54:23. > :54:28.moral argument of parents are taking religion to get their
:54:28. > :54:33.children into a decent school? believe considerations of fairness
:54:33. > :54:38.have to do with morality, don't you? More than that, as I have said,
:54:38. > :54:44.I don't think it is a good thing that parents should live. Though I
:54:44. > :54:49.do sympathise with the gentleman who did. As was pointed out,
:54:49. > :54:54.community schools tend to be very bad. But the wait for what is a
:54:54. > :54:59.pupil premium. Not by doing away with good schools. I want to leave
:54:59. > :55:02.it there. I want to bring in Richie Thomson from the British humanist
:55:02. > :55:05.Association. We know your association is campaigning against
:55:05. > :55:12.faith schools. Some would say you are more interested in getting
:55:12. > :55:16.religion out of public life, rather than be interest of schooling.
:55:16. > :55:19.are not interested in getting religion out of public life, bare
:55:19. > :55:24.cars should - but there are some places where we should be a part of
:55:24. > :55:28.life. We do believe in teaching religious education in schools. We
:55:28. > :55:33.think it is important that children are brought up knowing that those
:55:33. > :55:37.who have backgrounds different from themselves, of what is true and
:55:37. > :55:43.close to their hearts. But we do think it is wrong that state funds
:55:43. > :55:47.are used to segregate children by the religion of their parents. They
:55:47. > :55:56.often socially select as well. Jonathan Bartley mentioned about
:55:56. > :56:01.free school meals. That a certain faith is true and that others are
:56:01. > :56:04.false. In the end, in your son's school or anyone's religious school,
:56:04. > :56:10.you are really being taught your faith is right and everyone else's
:56:10. > :56:14.is wrong, aren't you? necessarily. Judaism is more of an
:56:14. > :56:17.ethnicity than religion. He is taught about the holidays, his
:56:17. > :56:22.background and identity. But he's also taught about Christian
:56:22. > :56:25.holidays. We are living like - that we live in a diverse society. I am
:56:25. > :56:30.happy to know that he is going to a school with children who have
:56:30. > :56:36.families that have the same goals that I do. I'm sure there is an
:56:36. > :56:45.oddball or two in the school... he not learn that from you at home?
:56:45. > :56:54.He gets both. Does he need to have that? We are out of time. Thank you
:56:55. > :57:01.all so much. The big issue of the day - we asked you to vote on the
:57:01. > :57:08.issue of Israel's military action, is it justified? 44 % of those of
:57:08. > :57:11.you and text in said yes, it is. 56 % said No. I had this feeling that
:57:11. > :57:17.people who choose to contribute on this debate probably have a strong
:57:17. > :57:22.side. It has come out almost equal. You weren't in the first discussion,
:57:22. > :57:26.what is your view on this? I agree with James on this. I feel you just
:57:26. > :57:30.need to find the solution from now. You need to move forward. This has
:57:30. > :57:35.been going on for years. I do sympathise with the Palestinians, I
:57:35. > :57:41.do feel that they do feel targeted. They don't have an independent
:57:41. > :57:46.state. I do feel if they were given that, people could move forward.
:57:46. > :57:53.Thank you to everybody who has taken part in today's lively show.
:57:53. > :57:58.To meanie et -- de Nina Wadia, Charlie Wolf, Jonathan Bartley and
:57:58. > :58:02.all of our contributors. Please don't text or call the phone lines
:58:02. > :58:06.any more. You can continue the conversation online on the website.