:00:11. > :00:16.Intolerant and judgmental, that is how a gay Tory minister described
:00:16. > :00:19.the Church of England's language about gay marriage. Is the church
:00:19. > :00:29.right to defend the sacred institution of marriage or is it
:00:29. > :00:47.
:00:48. > :00:50.Good morning. At least 60% of the public agree with a marriage, but
:00:50. > :00:55.the Church of England still poses it, saying that marriage should
:00:55. > :00:59.only be between a man and a woman. Are they right or out of touch?
:00:59. > :01:02.Figures this week show that black and Asian people are more likely to
:01:02. > :01:07.be stopped and searched by the police than white people. Some
:01:08. > :01:12.claimed it was one of the reasons for last we're -- last year's riots.
:01:12. > :01:15.This novelist says she is happy to be targeted because of her race.
:01:15. > :01:19.believe racial processing -- racial profiling is necessary when it
:01:19. > :01:23.comes to fighting crime and delivering results. Children are
:01:23. > :01:27.being raped because young boys are acting out poor and they have seen
:01:27. > :01:31.on the internet, so says the deputy Children's Commissioner. Is a time
:01:31. > :01:36.for the Government to block internet pornography? My guests are
:01:36. > :01:42.known for fighting their corner. John gourd how it -- is a radio
:01:42. > :01:48.talk-show host, going to the European Court of Human Rights to
:01:48. > :01:52.defend his right to call someone a Nazi on air.
:01:52. > :01:56.Andrew Marsh is a campaigner from Christian Concern, campaigning
:01:56. > :02:02.against gay marriage. In the past he has cleaned toilets with Chris
:02:02. > :02:04.Martin from Coldplay. We want to know what do you think.
:02:04. > :02:11.We want to know what do you think. Colin to challenge our guests. You
:02:11. > :02:21.can give your views on Twitter or by phone. Calls from mobiles may
:02:21. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:30.The Church of England is threatening to divorce the state.
:02:30. > :02:32.The grounds, the Government's plans to legalise gay marriage. Bishops
:02:32. > :02:36.say it is one of the biggest threats to the church since Henry
:02:36. > :02:39.VIII. Are they right or is it rather unnecessary trouble and
:02:39. > :02:44.strife? The Government and the Church of
:02:44. > :02:47.England squared up to each other this week over gay marriage. David
:02:47. > :02:52.Cameron backs gay marriage, because he believes it only makes society
:02:52. > :02:56.stronger when you make vows and support each other. I do not
:02:56. > :03:01.support a marriage in spite of being a Conservative. I support gay
:03:01. > :03:06.marriage because I am a Conservative. At the moment, same-
:03:06. > :03:09.sex couples can only enter into civil partnerships. Many gay people
:03:09. > :03:13.want equality in the eyes of the state, the same rights as
:03:13. > :03:18.heterosexual couples. They say that means marriage. But the Church says
:03:18. > :03:22.that legalising gay marriage is against loch -- Canon Law, the
:03:22. > :03:26.historic walls of their faith. They fear that a loving gay people to
:03:26. > :03:30.marry will undermine the institution of marriage itself. --
:03:30. > :03:33.allowing gay people. The Church of England says marriage should be
:03:33. > :03:39.about a man and the woman, and its main aim is to produce children.
:03:39. > :03:42.They say this is why gay people They say this is why gay people
:03:42. > :03:50.should be excluded. Marriage is a union between one man and one woman.
:03:50. > :03:54.There is no such thing as civil marriage and a separate little --
:03:54. > :03:58.religious marriage. This is a fundamental change. The Government
:03:58. > :04:02.says it will MoD for its religious organisations to conduct same-sex
:04:02. > :04:05.weddings but senior Anglican and Catholic clergy are worried there
:04:06. > :04:07.is the possibility that same-sex couples will use the human rights
:04:07. > :04:12.act to force them to conduct gay act to force them to conduct gay
:04:12. > :04:17.weddings in church. Is the church the last line of defence for the
:04:17. > :04:20.sacred institution of marriage, or is it out of touch and fighting to
:04:20. > :04:25.hard to prevent gay marriage when the British public, largely,
:04:25. > :04:28.supports it? The British public largely supports it. Fighting to
:04:28. > :04:32.hard? It is the role of the Church hard? It is the role of the Church
:04:33. > :04:36.to speak with clarity and with compassion of got's good purpose
:04:36. > :04:40.for human relationships. In the context of this debate, to set
:04:40. > :04:43.forth how these changes are not just small tweaks but represent a
:04:43. > :04:49.fundamental challenge to our understanding as a society of
:04:49. > :04:49.marriage, family, gender and how we marriage, family, gender and how we
:04:49. > :04:53.structure our society. That is the structure our society. That is the
:04:53. > :04:59.structure our society. That is the question for our text vote. If you
:04:59. > :05:09.think the Church is wrong to oppose gay marriage, text of the word Vote,
:05:09. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:13.followed by a Yes. We will show how followed by a Yes. We will show how
:05:13. > :05:19.you have voted at the end of the programme. Peter Tatchell, civil
:05:19. > :05:23.partnership, was that not the answer for gay couples? I think
:05:23. > :05:26.segregating gay and straight couples in two separate legal
:05:26. > :05:29.institutions is fundamentally wrong. To have a system of sexual
:05:29. > :05:33.segregation were gay couples are banned from civil marriages and
:05:33. > :05:37.heterosexual couples are buried -- banned from civil partnerships is
:05:37. > :05:41.not right. You want it both ways? We are not only campaigning for the
:05:41. > :05:43.right for gay couples to have a civil marriage before the Rite of
:05:43. > :05:49.heterosexual couples to have a civil partnership. If we believe
:05:49. > :05:54.the issue of equality goes both ways. Straightforward a quality,
:05:54. > :05:57.John? I find it hard to get too worked up about the issue. I think
:05:57. > :06:05.there are more important things to discuss. I think the Church has a
:06:05. > :06:07.right to say no, and I think personally that it is between a man
:06:07. > :06:12.and a woman. There are civil partnerships and I do not
:06:12. > :06:16.understand why the homosexual and lesbian community wants to eight
:06:16. > :06:21.per heterosexual communities. -- relationships. As usual, Peter
:06:21. > :06:24.wants to push back the barriers. What will happen is that as soon as
:06:24. > :06:28.it happens, churches will be challenged through the human rights
:06:28. > :06:33.act, and they have a right to do that. If the Church wants to stand
:06:34. > :06:39.up to it, they should. A liberal society should work both ways. If
:06:39. > :06:44.you have strong religious views, they should be tolerated. Hang on,
:06:44. > :06:48.neither the Government nor myself want to force churches to conduct
:06:48. > :06:53.same-sex religious marriages. you know that will happen. It will
:06:53. > :06:57.not happen. No legal challenge will be successful. We have had civil
:06:57. > :07:00.divorce as for a long time. There are some religious organisations
:07:00. > :07:04.that and divorce. There has never been a successful challenge on the
:07:04. > :07:09.basis that we have civil divorce, therefore religious organisations
:07:09. > :07:14.have to agree to divorce. It will not work. Churches have nothing to
:07:14. > :07:17.fear. I'm glad that according to a YouGov poll, 50% of people of faith
:07:18. > :07:20.say that they support same-sex marriage because they believe that
:07:20. > :07:26.the principle of equality and they believe that discrimination is not
:07:27. > :07:31.a religious value. Churches have nothing to fear? I agree with John.
:07:31. > :07:36.There is an incremental strategy behind this. What we're seeing here
:07:36. > :07:38.is a false distinction being drawn in the consultation between civil
:07:38. > :07:43.marriage and religious marriage. There is no such thing in this
:07:43. > :07:46.country. We have civil weddings and religious weddings but we have one
:07:46. > :07:50.institution of marriage. That is one of the things that whole
:07:50. > :07:56.society together. Most people don't get married. Why would you object
:07:56. > :08:00.to more people are bracing that institution? Your Right, we have
:08:00. > :08:04.seen a dilution of marriage in this country over the last few decades.
:08:04. > :08:10.That is not the fault of gay couples. Therefore we need to ask,
:08:10. > :08:16.do we want further dilution? Has it been a success? No. The sexual
:08:16. > :08:19.liberation agenda has not produced a society where we have flourishing
:08:19. > :08:25.human relationships, it has produced a society of sexual
:08:25. > :08:29.anarchy and the pain and heartbreak, and the children that brings. Why
:08:29. > :08:36.are we going down that route? Andrew, you support marriage and
:08:36. > :08:40.love. Gay couples love each other just as much as you or any other
:08:40. > :08:43.heterosexual person. They love is just as real and ballot. If they
:08:43. > :08:44.just as real and ballot. If they want to get married, an institution
:08:44. > :08:47.want to get married, an institution want to get married, an institution
:08:47. > :08:50.that you support, that does not attract a one iota from
:08:50. > :08:54.heterosexual couples. It strengthens marriage and
:08:54. > :09:01.strengthens love and commitment. Surely that is a Christian value?
:09:01. > :09:04.As you know, this is a deceptive strategy, love is an important
:09:04. > :09:07.marriage -- part of marriage and there are many loving relationships.
:09:07. > :09:12.To pick out love and commitment is to say important things about
:09:12. > :09:17.marriage but not all there is to say. What we are being intimidated
:09:17. > :09:20.into believing... No one is bullying you. What is it that you
:09:20. > :09:24.think marriage is sacred for apart from love and commitment?
:09:24. > :09:29.Homosexual relationships do not give rise to children. Yes, they do.
:09:29. > :09:35.They do, as we know but in different ways. Not through two
:09:35. > :09:38.partners. So it is about procreation in the traditional way?
:09:38. > :09:42.If we redefine marriage in this way, we are saying as a society that we
:09:42. > :09:46.have abandoned the ideal that children should have the
:09:46. > :09:51.opportunity, if possible, to be brought up with a mother and father.
:09:51. > :09:55.That is a change. There needs to be more support for marriage,
:09:55. > :09:58.heterosexual marriage. You spoke about this freedom, but we have a
:09:58. > :10:02.situation where children are not being brought up in stable
:10:02. > :10:06.relationships. That is why we had the riots. The introduction was
:10:06. > :10:10.talking about whether it was about black kids being picked on by
:10:10. > :10:13.police more than white kids, that is not why we had riots. It is
:10:13. > :10:19.because we do not have fathers. Successive governments have demoted
:10:19. > :10:23.the role of mother had and also of fatherhood. We need stable families
:10:23. > :10:27.in this country and we need that old-fashioned idea, how about
:10:27. > :10:31.getting married before you have kids? I am the first to admit, I
:10:31. > :10:36.lived with my wife or seven years before we got married, but
:10:36. > :10:40.subsequently we have been together for 22 years. I don't care if that
:10:40. > :10:44.sounds old-fashioned. The best way to bring up kids is West a mother
:10:44. > :10:49.and father. That does not mean that a lesbian and gay couple cannot
:10:49. > :10:53.adopt and bring up children well. However, as the basis of our
:10:53. > :10:58.society, we need a man and a woman living in a stable relationship and
:10:58. > :11:01.that needs to be united by marriage. We should not be diluting it.
:11:01. > :11:06.have gay and lesbian friends to have been together as a couple for
:11:06. > :11:11.30, 40 and in one case almost 50 years. Their love is just as real
:11:11. > :11:14.as that of any heterosexual person. It is so insulting to say that the
:11:14. > :11:20.law should ban them from celebrating that love and that
:11:20. > :11:24.stable commitment. They are celebrating its through civil
:11:24. > :11:27.partnerships. That is what you campaign for an you were given. It
:11:27. > :11:33.is incremental and you are now trying to attack the basis of
:11:33. > :11:37.marriage. I never campaigned for civil partnerships. By campaigned
:11:37. > :11:42.for full equality, for the right of everyone to get married to the
:11:42. > :11:46.person they love. This is not a discrimination issue. This is about
:11:46. > :11:51.being honest about the differences. This is about not going into an
:11:51. > :11:55.agenda which was intended to protect difference but is now being
:11:55. > :11:58.used to punish difference and impose ideological... It wants to
:11:58. > :12:04.punish those who want to disagree and say there is a distinction,
:12:04. > :12:10.that homosexual relationships are different. We do not want to punish
:12:10. > :12:13.you. What about this idea that gave families are different from
:12:13. > :12:19.straight families and that marriage straight families and that marriage
:12:19. > :12:23.does not apply to you? Gay people deserve equal marriage because gay
:12:23. > :12:27.people are equal. Yes, I had a civil partnerships and I have been
:12:27. > :12:30.in my civil partnership for six years, but when you have civil
:12:30. > :12:34.partnership for gay people and marriage for straight people,
:12:34. > :12:39.you're creating a division and that division is saying that gay people
:12:39. > :12:44.are not worthy of the institution of marriage. That hurts. That hurts
:12:44. > :12:48.me, families like mine, and I think it hurts Society. Tell me about
:12:48. > :12:53.your children. How do they feel? is completely normal for them. They
:12:53. > :12:57.know they have two mothers who are married and they have -- I have not
:12:57. > :13:00.gone into the terminology of civil partnerships because by the time
:13:00. > :13:04.they are old enough to understand, gay marriage will have become law
:13:05. > :13:08.anyway. There was a time when black and white people have to drink from
:13:08. > :13:15.separate water fountains and there were people saying, what is the
:13:15. > :13:19.problem. As you know, that is not a parallel. People were saying, what
:13:19. > :13:24.is the problem, everyone has water. People are saying to us, what is
:13:24. > :13:29.the problem, you have civil partnerships. I'm sorry, we want to
:13:29. > :13:34.be equal. I do have a personal faith, and I really am struggling
:13:34. > :13:38.with the way the Church of England are behaving at the moment. I do
:13:38. > :13:43.not feel that their argument is rational and it is not robust. If
:13:43. > :13:49.they are saying, can I just say, if they're saying marriages between a
:13:49. > :13:53.man and the woman, and it is about children. Well, I have married a
:13:53. > :14:03.woman and we have two lovely children. In this game age where --
:14:03. > :14:08.
:14:08. > :14:16.day and age where gay people are We must distance ourselves from
:14:16. > :14:23.this parallel. This is about love and commitment between two people.
:14:23. > :14:28.It is not about sex. Let's be clear this parallel is not valid with
:14:29. > :14:35.race. Race is a given. Sexual relationships, including love and
:14:36. > :14:40.sexual relationships, our choice driven. No one chooses to be gay.
:14:40. > :14:46.Sexual behaviour is controllable, that is part of being human. It is
:14:46. > :14:49.not a fair parallel to draw between race and sexual activity.
:14:49. > :14:55.choose your faith, does that mean you should be discriminated
:14:55. > :14:58.against? Of course not. I would defend you or anyone who suffers
:14:58. > :15:04.discrimination. Shame on you because you would not defend me
:15:04. > :15:09.because of my choices, lifestyles. That is double standards. You want
:15:09. > :15:14.equality but you are not prepared to give it to other people. I am
:15:14. > :15:18.happy to participate but I don't expect everybody to agree with me.
:15:18. > :15:28.You will be disagreeing with my views and the behaviour I subscribe
:15:28. > :15:29.
:15:29. > :15:35.to as a Christian. I'm not saying that is the same as race. For those
:15:35. > :15:37.who subscribe to being Christian, we need to remember and be clear
:15:37. > :15:41.that our fundamental foundation for that our fundamental foundation for
:15:41. > :15:45.authority is the person of Jesus Christ and he was no stranger to
:15:45. > :15:51.challenging social convention. He helped people, but when he was
:15:51. > :15:57.pushed on this particular issue, he went out of his way to uphold the
:15:57. > :16:06.fact that marriages between one man and one woman. The there is no such
:16:06. > :16:12.thing in the Bible. Not to a press. No, but to bring liberty and
:16:12. > :16:17.reinforce flourishing relationships. I want to bring in Andrew, the
:16:17. > :16:22.Conservative MP here because this is your party pushing gay marriage
:16:22. > :16:28.on a church which says their values are traditional. Do you think it is
:16:28. > :16:33.a mistake your government has tied itself to pushing this issue?
:16:33. > :16:41.think, if for no other reason, the Conservative Party made an election
:16:41. > :16:44.commitment. Equality's was part of our manifesto, saying it would
:16:44. > :16:51.bring forward consultation on equal marriage and we would be questioned
:16:51. > :16:56.if we weren't bringing that in. Funny, I think the Conservative
:16:56. > :17:01.Party is trying to create a stable society. As the Prime Minister said
:17:01. > :17:05.in your clip, society is stronger when we make vows to each other
:17:05. > :17:12.because they are strong values that keep our communities together. This
:17:12. > :17:17.is something that should be embraced. Jon Gaunt? They also said
:17:17. > :17:24.they would have a referendum on the EU so that is hardly an argument.
:17:24. > :17:27.It was full of hypocrisy, like all the politicians' manifestoes. I
:17:27. > :17:35.don't think there is a great groundswell within the gay movement
:17:35. > :17:41.for gay marriage. Yes, the areas. don't think so because I was
:17:41. > :17:46.reading Conservative home, and Tim Montgomery was making a point that
:17:46. > :17:49.they raised no groundswell. This is an argument that the Conservatives
:17:49. > :17:55.didn't need to pick at this time. There are much more important
:17:55. > :17:59.things such government should be concentrating on. Let's take it on
:17:59. > :18:02.because I want to bring in Sharon James from the Coalition for
:18:02. > :18:07.marriage. You got half-a-million signatures on a petition against
:18:07. > :18:14.gay marriage, you think the Conservative Party is wrong to push
:18:14. > :18:18.this? Yes because marriage is not just representing people of faith,
:18:18. > :18:28.representing people up and down the country whether they have faith or
:18:28. > :18:32.
:18:32. > :18:36.not. As you know, Poles are very unreliable. -- polls. If you ask
:18:36. > :18:46.people whether they believe in equality, of course they do, just
:18:46. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:54.like they believe in Christmas. This isn't just about faith, it is
:18:54. > :18:57.a much bigger issue. Andrew, the comparison with race - into racial
:18:57. > :19:03.marriage used to be to book in the 60s and those attitudes have
:19:03. > :19:09.changed, haven't they? Yes, and that is a good thing. There is no
:19:09. > :19:14.place for racism but that is different from categories such as
:19:14. > :19:19.sexual behaviour, relationships, or sexual choice. We have a choice in
:19:20. > :19:26.those things so it is a category confusion that clouds the debate.
:19:26. > :19:31.It is very clear the YouGov poll, highly respected, it interviewed
:19:31. > :19:37.2000 people and found that 58% of people of faith support gay
:19:37. > :19:41.marriage - not equality - gay marriage. That is fantastic that
:19:41. > :19:46.people of faith stand for the principle of non-discrimination.
:19:46. > :19:52.That is confusing because a lot of people think civil partnerships is
:19:52. > :19:58.my game version of marriage so when you put that into the frame 58% is
:19:58. > :20:05.not an overwhelming majority. This should be left to people's own
:20:05. > :20:10.moral conscience, not the government. So you think the law
:20:10. > :20:13.discriminates? I haven't interrupted you once, to be fair. I
:20:13. > :20:19.believe there are much more important things to discuss,
:20:19. > :20:24.however I do believe marriage is about a man and a woman and if we
:20:24. > :20:29.protected the sanctity of marriage more through government help and
:20:29. > :20:33.tax breaks, we would have a better society and we would not have
:20:33. > :20:39.problems like internet pornography. I want to bring in a couple of
:20:39. > :20:46.comments. Jonathan in Bournemouth - yes, the church is very wrong. I am
:20:46. > :20:52.a strong Christian and I am gay and I say leave us alone. Anonymous -
:20:52. > :21:02.this is an example of bullying by democracy. This is marriage plain
:21:02. > :21:05.
:21:05. > :21:15.and simple. That is our text poll today - is the Church of England
:21:15. > :21:17.
:21:17. > :21:24.wrong to oppose gay marriage? You have around 20 minutes before it
:21:24. > :21:29.closes. Picture this - someone who looks
:21:29. > :21:34.Muslim walks into her poor security, they are searched and questioned
:21:34. > :21:38.whilst the white people walk by. Some people say that is racial
:21:38. > :21:43.discrimination but this novelist says it is a price worth paying for
:21:43. > :21:47.security and it is time people stopped moaning about it. I believe
:21:47. > :21:53.racial profiling is necessary when it comes to the police fighting
:21:53. > :21:58.crime on our streets and delivering results. Figures show that black
:21:58. > :22:04.and Asian people in certain areas commit more crime, so if that means
:22:04. > :22:08.one has to stop and search them in order to prevent crime, then that
:22:08. > :22:13.is all right so long as it is done with respect. I would rather the
:22:13. > :22:19.police went out and looked for the culprits rather than sat back and
:22:19. > :22:23.avoided taking tough decisions for PC reasons. In fact, when they try
:22:23. > :22:27.to be politically correct it has often lead to disastrous results
:22:27. > :22:31.and we have been the first to condemn them. Following recent
:22:31. > :22:36.terrorist attacks, Muslims objected to being singled out and yet
:22:36. > :22:41.Muslims carried out most of the attacks. How can you prevent racial
:22:41. > :22:45.profiling? Those of us from an ethnic background have often been
:22:45. > :22:48.humiliated when we have been singled out, but I would rather be
:22:48. > :22:54.humiliated for a moment than prevent the police from doing their
:22:54. > :22:58.job, because what is the alternative? To allow a dangerous
:22:58. > :23:03.terrorist to get away? I remember a terrible incident at an airport in
:23:03. > :23:08.Italy. I was prevented from catching my flight and my luggage
:23:08. > :23:11.was offloaded as well. It didn't matter to them that my husband is a
:23:11. > :23:16.British parliamentarian, they were suspicious about something and I
:23:16. > :23:21.didn't protest too much because they were only doing their job.
:23:21. > :23:26.Once they had done their cheques, I got the next flight home. If this
:23:26. > :23:32.cuts down on crime, it is time for communities to stop protesting and
:23:32. > :23:42.support the police. You can join the conversation on
:23:42. > :23:43.
:23:43. > :23:48.Twitter, phone, text, or e-mail. Our guest joins us in the studio.
:23:48. > :23:54.Tell us why you think it is OK then you get stopped and treated in this
:23:54. > :24:00.appalling way. Wouldn't bother you if it happened every week? Yes,
:24:00. > :24:06.obviously if it happened every week, but if it is done with respect and
:24:06. > :24:10.for good reasons, the police only doing a stop and search when they
:24:10. > :24:14.have a reason to suspect there is something going on which they need
:24:14. > :24:18.to keep an eye on, and we know there are certain areas in this
:24:18. > :24:22.country were the black and ethnic community have indulged in anti-
:24:22. > :24:28.social activities as we saw recently. That was the first time
:24:28. > :24:33.for me also, it came as a shock, that if we are too politically
:24:33. > :24:36.correct we can put people in great danger and we need to step back and
:24:37. > :24:46.say sometimes it is OK for the police to do what they are doing.
:24:47. > :24:56.
:24:56. > :25:01.The Home Office says Rowe -- racial profiling is not allowed. Asians
:25:01. > :25:07.are 10 times more likely to be stopped than white people. The
:25:07. > :25:13.effectiveness is very small - only just over 2% of those searches
:25:13. > :25:17.resulted in an arrest. You can't object to the airport example. Why
:25:17. > :25:22.would you want to stop people who don't much a potential Islamic
:25:22. > :25:27.profile? I don't think they should be profiled on the base of their
:25:27. > :25:32.race but on solid evidence. Just because a person is Muslim, it is
:25:32. > :25:36.no excuse to stop them. Most of the time, this evidence is based on
:25:36. > :25:43.witness reports, based on what people think the perpetrator is
:25:43. > :25:48.like, based on evidence the police might have. The person might end up
:25:48. > :25:53.looking like me but that is a price I have to pay if my community is
:25:53. > :25:59.indulging in certain practices that they shouldn't be doing. There is
:25:59. > :26:06.the airport example of course, and Muslim people should be expected to
:26:06. > :26:11.stop more than people who are white, although you can be white and be a
:26:11. > :26:15.Muslim of course. I was at Luton airport a few weeks ago and four
:26:15. > :26:20.year-old child was being told to take their clothes off and it was
:26:20. > :26:24.garbage. We should be profiling people because not all Muslims are
:26:24. > :26:29.terrorists but the threat we are facing at the moment is Muslim. It
:26:29. > :26:34.is great to hear people from that background saying it is sensible.
:26:34. > :26:38.Going on to black people being stopped, it isn't black people, it
:26:38. > :26:42.is black youth and there is a problem with certain aspects of
:26:42. > :26:48.black youth carrying knives. It should not be a front for racism, I
:26:48. > :26:52.agree, but there are black people, particularly Somalia and
:26:52. > :26:55.communities, who are carrying knives and who have brought that
:26:55. > :27:02.culture to the country at the moment. That's not to say that in
:27:02. > :27:09.the 50s the grade twins didn't use knives and so on, of course they
:27:09. > :27:15.did. To make our police politically-correct is ridiculous
:27:15. > :27:21.and it is the same actor bought as well. Let's get real about this and
:27:21. > :27:26.work together to make the community safer. I want to talk to someone
:27:26. > :27:33.who has had an experience of being stopped. You are the official
:27:33. > :27:37.Olympic poet and I think we have you on the webcam. Do we have to
:27:37. > :27:43.accept this is part of the deal you might get stopped more? I was
:27:43. > :27:49.stopped consistently as a young growing black male and most of the
:27:49. > :27:54.black men I know have also been stopped consistently by the police.
:27:54. > :27:59.In 1981, a report looked into policing, in 1994, the Macpherson
:27:59. > :28:07.report looked into the police and there is a history to this that
:28:07. > :28:12.goes back to the childhoods of most black men. But you know there is a
:28:12. > :28:14.crime problem as well, or do you think that is exaggerated? They
:28:14. > :28:19.resource there were a problem with insurance fraud, does that mean
:28:19. > :28:26.people should start knocking on the doors of every white person who has
:28:26. > :28:31.not paid their insurance. Let him finish. I was just saying that is
:28:31. > :28:35.proportionality of the racial profiling at present is exactly the
:28:35. > :28:41.same as if people were to knock on people's doors and tell them they
:28:41. > :28:47.had cause to crime by not paying insurance and therefore you could
:28:47. > :28:55.say caused deaths on the roads. until the case recently in Rochdale,
:28:55. > :28:59.a lot of black and Asian people used to make the point that all
:28:59. > :29:08.paedophiles were white. These generalisations are there, and it
:29:08. > :29:13.can be dangerous, but when support... Let me finish. When the
:29:13. > :29:18.point was made about young black men carrying knives, he also went
:29:18. > :29:23.on to say that most burglars are white, which has been forgotten. We
:29:23. > :29:28.just have to be sensible. It doesn't mean all black youth are
:29:28. > :29:38.carrying knives or they are all gangsters, it just means we have to
:29:38. > :29:45.
:29:45. > :29:54.Your response to that? My response would be that in England, two point
:29:54. > :30:00.8% of section 60 stop-and-searches resulted in arrests. Two point 8%.
:30:00. > :30:05.That decreased to 2.3% in 2012. Most black and Asian men and women,
:30:05. > :30:07.boys and girls are educated and stylish and living their lives as
:30:07. > :30:12.stylish and living their lives as normal. They are finding themselves
:30:12. > :30:17.stopped by the police, which is a terrifying and, terrifying thing to
:30:17. > :30:24.happen should you not be a criminal. It does not mean that you will
:30:24. > :30:28.respond in an articulate way. Because you're frightened. I want
:30:28. > :30:31.to respond to that. As I said in my film, it happened to me when I was
:30:31. > :30:36.stopped at an airport. It is terrifying because your baggage has
:30:36. > :30:41.been offloaded. I do not exactly look like a terrorist but I still
:30:41. > :30:45.an ethnic. So therefore I am pulled out because I look like -- I look
:30:45. > :30:50.in a particular way. But I think it was the security at the airport
:30:50. > :30:53.doing its job. They had reasons to suspect, and even if I was
:30:53. > :30:57.terrified, if I knew I was innocent I would go through it and say fine,
:30:58. > :31:02.they are doing their job. I would rather they got even 30 or 40
:31:02. > :31:07.people like me that led one guy get away with it, because ultimately I
:31:07. > :31:15.would have been on a flight. I would be dead right now if they had
:31:15. > :31:20.real evidence. So... Can I make one more points? I totally accept your
:31:20. > :31:26.point that do can be an overdrive by the police at times because they
:31:26. > :31:30.are over-enthusiastic. The result was a simpler solution, which is
:31:30. > :31:33.educational bowside. -- there is always. It is for the police to
:31:33. > :31:36.understand what is happening but also to induct more people from
:31:36. > :31:41.that particular community into the police force, and I have to say
:31:42. > :31:44.this, for the community itself to try and ensure that their children
:31:44. > :31:49.and people from their community are not indulging in anti-social
:31:49. > :31:53.activities. I support the police and fighting crime and they know
:31:53. > :31:56.they have a difficult job. But I think what is dangerous about the
:31:56. > :32:01.stop-and-search powers is that the police do not have a specific
:32:01. > :32:06.reasonable suspicion. They can do what randomly and this randomness
:32:06. > :32:12.often impacts. On my estate a young black man was stopped. He was short,
:32:12. > :32:18.stocky and had appeared. The police were looking for a tall black man,
:32:18. > :32:21.no description of a beard. Why was the young guy stopped? We used to
:32:21. > :32:27.go to Central London I used to cross over Blackfriars Bridge for
:32:27. > :32:32.nine months. It may be a year. I noticed on every single time the
:32:32. > :32:36.police pulled over a driver and every time that driver was black.
:32:36. > :32:41.After nine months I ask the police why is it that every time you have
:32:41. > :32:45.stopped the car, the person is black? The police threatened to
:32:45. > :32:50.arrest me. For asking a reasonable, polite question. To me, the fact
:32:50. > :32:55.that every one of those drivers was black struck me as racial profiling.
:32:55. > :33:02.Let me ask about the impact of racial profiling. We have a
:33:02. > :33:08.representative from the Henry Jackson society. Does it work?
:33:08. > :33:12.Based on our research into terrorism, we found that in the
:33:12. > :33:17.majority of cases there was a typical profile. Not necessarily
:33:17. > :33:23.based on race, but we found that in terrorism cases in the UK, there
:33:23. > :33:32.are often young men who were often British nationals. And they came
:33:32. > :33:36.from a particular ethnic background. Of South Asian descent. Certainly,
:33:36. > :33:42.in terms of terrorism cases, there can be a typical profile. At the
:33:42. > :33:46.same time, while I agree with the panellists that profiling should be
:33:46. > :33:51.led by intelligence, because a threat can emanate from an on
:33:51. > :33:55.typical profile, take this for example. A couple of years ago we
:33:55. > :33:59.almost had a terrorist attack from a white male convert, in a
:33:59. > :34:04.restaurant in the UK. A few years ago, our security services were
:34:04. > :34:10.concerned about the threat emanating from Yemen where they
:34:10. > :34:13.believe that Al-Qaeda terrorist groups, there was a possibility
:34:13. > :34:17.that they were dispatched female white converts. Did they change
:34:17. > :34:27.their profiling as a result? think it was intelligence led. I
:34:27. > :34:30.think it should be that way. Thank you for your her contribution.
:34:30. > :34:38.You're from the Mannheim Centre for technology. Terrorism seems to be
:34:38. > :34:42.more complex at airports. It is important to say, before we get
:34:42. > :34:46.into the evidence, that if police officers are engaging in racial
:34:46. > :34:51.profiling in the UK, they are breaking the law. As for the
:34:51. > :34:55.evidence, it is pretty clear that stop-and-search has a marginal
:34:55. > :35:01.impact on crime prevention. The Home Office's own research
:35:01. > :35:05.indicated that 0.2% of crime was prevented by stop-and-search. It is
:35:05. > :35:09.easy to understand if you look at the arrest rate. The arrest rates
:35:09. > :35:12.are very low. That is what you would expect if the police were
:35:12. > :35:17.being indiscriminate. Using their power base on general
:35:17. > :35:22.characteristics like race. It is interesting because the previous
:35:22. > :35:25.speaker said that even the terrorists are changing their
:35:25. > :35:30.profile. That is why it is important to have a profile to
:35:30. > :35:36.begin with, because the police begin to look at a particular kind
:35:36. > :35:46.of Trent and then that drives the terrorists to look at something
:35:46. > :35:48.
:35:48. > :35:52.else. -- trend. These statistics, why do we have these statistics? It
:35:52. > :35:58.is because the police are giving these statistics and they are being
:35:58. > :36:02.monitored. This atmosphere coming over from our poet was that the
:36:02. > :36:06.police are institutional a racist. I do not think that is true. There
:36:06. > :36:11.have been some charges against certain people, let us have that
:36:11. > :36:17.investigation. We do not want that coppers but the majority of police
:36:17. > :36:24.officers are not racist. -- bad coppers. We're going to lose 16,000.
:36:24. > :36:28.That will make a difference, let me tell you. The indiscriminate use of
:36:28. > :36:33.stop-and-search has not only effective but also damaging for
:36:33. > :36:37.good community relations. It destroys the confidence of --
:36:37. > :36:40.confidence in the police. We want to have good support for the police.
:36:40. > :36:47.We need the community to come out and say something when they see
:36:47. > :36:52.something going wrong. That you're very much. Some quick responses.
:36:52. > :36:59.Tom: "Racial and proper filing people is what makes communities
:36:59. > :37:03.feel marginalised. -- racially profiling." Later, one in four
:37:03. > :37:06.searchers -- searches on the internet is for porn. His is a new
:37:06. > :37:10.age of freedom where anyone can explore sexual interests online or
:37:10. > :37:12.would it be good for us and our children if the Government made it
:37:12. > :37:18.children if the Government made it harder to access internet porn? You
:37:18. > :37:18.can make your views known by phone, can make your views known by phone,
:37:18. > :37:24.can make your views known by phone, e-mail or online. Remember to keep
:37:24. > :37:34.e-mail or online. Remember to keep voting. If you think the Church is
:37:34. > :37:34.
:37:34. > :37:44.wrong to oppose gay marriage, get You have about five minutes before
:37:44. > :37:45.
:37:45. > :37:49.Time for our moral moments of the week where our guests pick the
:37:49. > :37:53.stories that have got them contemplating. The food blogger in
:37:53. > :38:01.Scotland was your choice. I thought this story was so delightful, 39-
:38:01. > :38:05.year-old kid decided to start a lot about her school dinners. It was
:38:05. > :38:10.wonderful how everyone has jumped on her side, despite the fact that
:38:10. > :38:14.the school tried to ban her. the school, the council. I think it
:38:14. > :38:19.is important, the moral moment is that you can be young,
:38:19. > :38:25.insignificant, and just a little school kid, but you can make a
:38:25. > :38:28.difference. She has raised a lot of money. And also, it is a positive
:38:28. > :38:32.of the internet. The democratisation of our society.
:38:32. > :38:39.This was a story from the Daily Mail -- this was not a story from
:38:39. > :38:41.the Daily Mail, this came from a girl who wrote about it in -- on
:38:41. > :38:44.the internet. This is a positive thing about the internet and
:38:44. > :38:50.Twitter and Facebook and we should applaud it. It is absolutely
:38:50. > :38:56.brilliant. It is a lovely story. Mind you, we had no choice about it
:38:56. > :39:00.when I was at school. Either you eat it or you do not eat it! What
:39:00. > :39:05.are your thoughts, Peter? I think it is great that a young girl can
:39:05. > :39:09.get his message out to millions of people. Fantastic. That is what
:39:09. > :39:14.democracy is about. I wonder if you were struck by how quickly the
:39:14. > :39:18.authorities were trying to shut it down. Why on earth would they want
:39:18. > :39:25.to stop it? What harm could it cos? A thing faded not realise she had
:39:25. > :39:29.such a following. And the pictures are so telling. 32 grains of corn
:39:29. > :39:33.or something as part of a school dinner. It made everyone sit up and
:39:33. > :39:38.say, that is terrible. It was a moronic Council response. They
:39:38. > :39:42.cannot cope with Twitter. People talk about the Murdoch thing, it
:39:42. > :39:44.was not the Guardian who brought that down, it was Twitter and
:39:44. > :39:50.Facebook and ordinary people. There is something powerful happening in
:39:50. > :39:55.society through social media, very powerful. Peter, your choice, Saudi
:39:55. > :40:02.Arabia's version of Britain's Got Talent. The organisers have
:40:02. > :40:06.announced that women are banned, and so is singing and dancing. But
:40:06. > :40:12.religious chants and prayers are permitted. This is just absolutely
:40:12. > :40:16.medieval. When you think about this, Britain supports this regime. We
:40:16. > :40:19.sell them guns and by their oil and sustain the dictatorship. We treat
:40:19. > :40:25.women -- are they treat women in this way and it is shocking that
:40:25. > :40:32.women can be so degraded and that our Government backs his regime.
:40:32. > :40:37.all like it. Simon Cowell has reinvented Saturday night TV. I
:40:37. > :40:41.cannot see why the Saudis are bothering to do it if that is the
:40:41. > :40:45.roles they are putting in place. Frankly, it is ludicrous. It is
:40:45. > :40:50.very sad. Especially if women do not have the right to do what we
:40:50. > :40:54.think our normal things. But we have to be sympathetic that that is
:40:54. > :40:57.the religion in that area. That is the upbringing that most of the
:40:57. > :41:02.people there have. I am not saying that they should not have the
:41:02. > :41:06.choice, they should definitely have a choice, and I wish they had it,
:41:06. > :41:13.but it is difficult for them to go against that. There are some
:41:13. > :41:19.contestants on our programmes here, who I would like to be fully
:41:19. > :41:24.covered up and not saying it! Maybe they have got it right. -- not
:41:24. > :41:28.saying. Yours is about a grandfather and some good deeds?
:41:28. > :41:34.is one of the greatest Tories ever. It is like the movies get Shorey
:41:34. > :41:38.comic sketch. -- greatest stories ever. He comes out of the back and
:41:38. > :41:41.he has �1,000 in cash. All these young children pick up the money
:41:41. > :41:46.and you would think they were going to run off with the money. You know
:41:46. > :41:50.what they did, they took the money back to him and he only lost a very
:41:50. > :41:53.small proportion, probably blown away in the wind. Is that not
:41:53. > :41:58.fantastic? Too often we say that young people are feral and feckless
:41:58. > :42:03.and running wild but obviously there are a lot of great kids out
:42:03. > :42:07.there. It is an uplifting story. has to a much the reverse of the
:42:07. > :42:12.riots, when we saw people grabbing things and running. Here they are
:42:13. > :42:18.just giving things back. What is lovely, this is truly British.
:42:18. > :42:23.Truly British values. The honesty, the generosity, things we celebrate
:42:23. > :42:26.about this country. It is a good news story. It is a fantastic
:42:26. > :42:30.example of altruism, and people are essentially good. We must never
:42:30. > :42:35.lose sight of that. All the bad news we hear, there are so many
:42:35. > :42:39.good people in this country who do wonderful, amazing things. And are
:42:39. > :42:42.very happy moral moment to end on. You have been voting in our poll.
:42:42. > :42:52.Is the Church wrong to oppose gay marriage? The polls are closing so
:42:52. > :42:56.
:42:56. > :42:59.do not text as your vote will not Should we restrict access to
:42:59. > :43:04.internet pornography? That is the question the Government is
:43:04. > :43:07.considering at the moment. It is in response to horrific stories in the
:43:07. > :43:11.papers at evidence in Parliament, like a 12-year-old boy who raped a
:43:11. > :43:15.nine-year-old girl. He told the court that he was copying explicit
:43:15. > :43:19.images he had seen online and that he wanted to feel grown-up. Some
:43:19. > :43:23.MPs are suggesting an automatic pre-set blocking on adult material
:43:23. > :43:27.on the internet. Anyone over 18 would have to sign him to get
:43:27. > :43:33.access to it. Would this protect our children from the growing tide
:43:33. > :43:37.of internet porn or is it just the nanny state?
:43:37. > :43:42.Children are learning how to carry out sex attacks from internet
:43:42. > :43:46.pornography. That is the finding of the deputy Children's Commissioner.
:43:46. > :43:51.Young people are accessing very extreme pornography. There is no
:43:51. > :43:55.question about that. We have had boys say to us that it was like
:43:55. > :43:58.being, some of the boys I have spoken have said it was like being
:43:58. > :44:03.in a porn movie. They have watched things and then they have enacted
:44:03. > :44:08.them. It has led to calls for tighter restrictions by internet
:44:08. > :44:12.service providers. And it ought in system for anyone over 18 to you
:44:12. > :44:17.adult content. Critics say this is mass censorship and that it would
:44:17. > :44:21.block access to many harmless sites. It could restrict access to pages
:44:21. > :44:25.on sex education or religious debates on adultery. This say the
:44:25. > :44:30.responsibility rests with the parents, not the Government.
:44:30. > :44:34.starting point should be to give parents more ability to control how
:44:34. > :44:38.at their children use computers. That is a good thing. But we cannot
:44:38. > :44:44.have the Government setting up some blacklist will wear a bureaucrat
:44:44. > :44:49.decides whether sites can or cannot be seen in the UK. -- blacklist
:44:49. > :44:54.where a bureaucrat. Many argue that children could still access porn
:44:54. > :44:57.sites via wifi or mobile phones and tablets. But would creating an opt-
:44:57. > :45:02.in system which automatically blocked all adult material be a
:45:02. > :45:05.good first step towards protecting our children? Or is it a knee-jerk
:45:05. > :45:15.and effective solution which simply punishes and restricts the liberty
:45:15. > :45:17.
:45:17. > :45:21.Peter, we have the technology, we could lock this and make people
:45:21. > :45:26.ought to end - isn't it time? have sympathy for parents who want
:45:26. > :45:32.to protect their children but there are practical problems. If someone
:45:32. > :45:38.is doing research about safer sex, putting in the word sex might mean
:45:38. > :45:45.their search is blocked. If people are looking up gay rights, the word
:45:45. > :45:55.gay might block their search. I did a search on toys and gay, the
:45:55. > :46:00.
:46:00. > :46:09.sprinter, and that was blocked. -- Tyson Gay. I don't think the course
:46:09. > :46:13.and link has been shown, and even if it was in a minority of cases, I
:46:13. > :46:21.don't think that means it should be blocked for everyone. I would
:46:21. > :46:27.oppose any trafficking or exploitation of a porn actor,
:46:28. > :46:34.otherwise for a elderly or disabled people, or people in isolated
:46:34. > :46:39.communities, this is often their only outlet and I would not want to
:46:39. > :46:45.remove it for them. K newsy there is a social service to pornography
:46:45. > :46:51.almost? I am a writer and I do write sex scenes but I have never
:46:51. > :46:55.had to look at a pornographic site, nor have I wanted to do so, and I
:46:55. > :47:01.do think the most dangerous part of this entire sexual freedom that we
:47:01. > :47:07.have on the internet is the fact that it is a massive industry. The
:47:07. > :47:11.reason why a lot of the search giants like Google and so on are so
:47:11. > :47:19.low at to do anything about it is because they are earning a lot of
:47:19. > :47:24.money. The search engines own something like $10 billion just
:47:24. > :47:28.through search engines and most of them are linked to a pornographic
:47:28. > :47:32.website so that is the key link we have to look at. I worry about
:47:32. > :47:36.anything when we talk about banning it because if we allow the
:47:36. > :47:41.government to start banning things like the last government...
:47:41. > :47:45.would be changing the where you access it, it would be opting in.
:47:45. > :47:51.Effectively it is banning it because you start with this and you
:47:51. > :47:58.wonder where it goes to next. Before you ask, yes I have looked
:47:58. > :48:03.at it like any man or any female, apart from your good self-, but I
:48:03. > :48:09.remember speaking to an expert on this who made the point and said
:48:09. > :48:15."John, didn't you have secrets when you were a child? Where did you
:48:15. > :48:21.hide your magazines?" of course as a child I had secret. Because of
:48:21. > :48:26.mobile phones and tablets, this is available everywhere. You can block
:48:26. > :48:31.this but kids will get it elsewhere. I know a teacher who said kids were
:48:31. > :48:37.watching this on their smartphones at school. We need a mass education,
:48:37. > :48:41.a bit like the Green Cross Code. If we can spend that much money on the
:48:41. > :48:47.Green Cross Code, encouraging people about the dangers out there,
:48:47. > :48:52.why don't we do that now? Rather than a knee-jerk reaction, let's
:48:52. > :49:02.educate parents to say do you know what your kids are looking at? How
:49:02. > :49:09.many parents know how to get on to Facebook and other websites?
:49:09. > :49:13.have Suzie Hayman joining us on the webcam, an agony aunt. What does
:49:13. > :49:22.your evidence about how internet pornography is affecting children?
:49:22. > :49:24.It has changed in the last few years. I used to get lots of
:49:25. > :49:29.letters from Fifteen-year-olds saying their boyfriends have asked
:49:29. > :49:39.them to sleep with them to prove they love them, now I get letters
:49:39. > :49:43.
:49:43. > :49:51.from people saying I get asked my my boyfriend to do a long list of
:49:51. > :49:55.things that I would say belong in an adult relationship. What is
:49:55. > :50:04.available at the touch of a button in their bedrooms anywhere is now
:50:04. > :50:09.so much more extreme. I am not saying controls are the only thing
:50:09. > :50:14.- I think it should be opting in rather than opting out because I
:50:14. > :50:22.don't think that would prevent people from accessing this, but
:50:22. > :50:28.what I think is more important is education of parents. I want to get
:50:28. > :50:33.one more response on the webcam. We have a guest who makes adult
:50:33. > :50:37.pornographic films. Isn't it time you accepted that young children
:50:37. > :50:40.are being damaged by some of the stuff they are stumbling across and
:50:40. > :50:45.this is no good saying it is for consenting adults because there is
:50:45. > :50:50.no control on it? We have no evidence saying kids are being
:50:50. > :50:58.damaged. The Government is listening to a very biased set of
:50:58. > :51:02.data from people who deal with... People who are psychologist dealing
:51:02. > :51:07.with people who have difficult situations with pornography. That
:51:07. > :51:11.is something like less than 1% of the population. The vast majority
:51:11. > :51:17.of people don't have issues with pornography and they should take
:51:17. > :51:22.that into account. The adult industry does not market to under
:51:22. > :51:27.18s and when people are talking about young people and children,
:51:27. > :51:33.they are talking about people under 18. You deny there is any corrosive
:51:33. > :51:43.impact on children today? I am saying that blaming the adult
:51:43. > :51:49.industry for under-aged pornography used is like blaming Smirnoff for
:51:49. > :51:54.alcohol problems. I definitely disagree with her because I think
:51:54. > :51:58.there is a correlation. I used to make documentaries, I used to be a
:51:58. > :52:04.film-maker, not making pornography films, but we did get a lot of
:52:04. > :52:10.feedback about the effect of what was happening. The visual medium
:52:10. > :52:14.does have an impact, but I want to talk about games. I was reading
:52:14. > :52:18.about an online game which has been written about recently, where are
:52:18. > :52:22.apparently the age group supposed to be playing that is under 15, but
:52:22. > :52:27.most of the time what this undercover reporter found out was
:52:27. > :52:33.that there were people who... The moment the kids came online they
:52:33. > :52:36.were told to remove their clothes. Pornography has pervaded the
:52:36. > :52:42.internet and it is normalising extreme behaviour for very young
:52:42. > :52:52.children. I think it may for some very small minority and therefore I
:52:52. > :52:56.
:52:56. > :53:01.don't think the majority should be penalised. I want to Flett the
:53:01. > :53:08.terms of engagement, what about that, rather than children
:53:08. > :53:12.stumbling across it so they are opting in. Why are we obsessing
:53:12. > :53:21.about hard core pornography and not hardcore violent. That is a much
:53:21. > :53:27.bigger issue and violence to me... Let me finish, violence is much
:53:27. > :53:36.worse than sex. Education is Vicky, we need to educate pupils have
:53:36. > :53:39.responsible loving mutually fulfilling sexual relationships.
:53:39. > :53:46.This is why the government are washing their hands of it. The
:53:46. > :53:50.simple facts are that people might opt in at home but will they check
:53:50. > :53:54.children have on their mobile phones? We need the government to
:53:54. > :53:59.put the money in their rather than doing what they're doing at the
:53:59. > :54:06.moment. I am no great supporter of pornography, I'm talking about
:54:06. > :54:12.education. Just a moment. I want to bring in another guest, because
:54:12. > :54:16.everyone is saying they can't do it technology wise. Miranda is from
:54:16. > :54:22.Save the media, why aren't the internet service providers doing
:54:22. > :54:26.this? It is difficult because of the commercial angle. They are
:54:26. > :54:31.making an awful lot of money through extra traffic as a result
:54:32. > :54:36.of internet pornography searchers because it means people end up
:54:36. > :54:42.paying more money for their package. What we are talking about here is
:54:42. > :54:47.not banning it, it is an opt-in filter which means you can very
:54:47. > :54:52.easily get the pornography turned on if you are over 18 and you go
:54:52. > :54:58.through an age verification process. This has been done for gambling
:54:58. > :55:02.website already and it is easy to do, and when the cross-party
:55:02. > :55:06.inquiry was done, they said practically it is not a problem,
:55:06. > :55:12.technically, and they also said there was a massive problem with
:55:12. > :55:16.children, that they saw a lot of experts and they said that good
:55:16. > :55:22.parents are having real issues with putting on these filters and this
:55:22. > :55:26.is why we should have this spot in system. The internet service
:55:26. > :55:30.providers would block the pornography, but adults would go
:55:30. > :55:34.through an age verification process so that people who want to access
:55:34. > :55:39.pornography would be able to and customers would be able to access
:55:39. > :55:43.this but it would make it harder for their children. That seems like
:55:43. > :55:50.a good idea, and I am wondering why we can't have ethical search
:55:50. > :55:53.engines. Why are we so dependent on the old ones like Google? Wigan
:55:53. > :55:57.Builder different search engine that begins with the premise there
:55:57. > :56:04.will not be pornography on it. see nothing wrong with pornography
:56:04. > :56:08.which is ethical, where no actors are the worst or exploited, and I
:56:08. > :56:12.think there is a great virtue because we hear from young people,
:56:12. > :56:16.many young people finding their best sex-education comes from
:56:17. > :56:24.pornography. They don't get it from there parents, so pornography can
:56:24. > :56:32.have the benefit. Thank you. We do have to end it there because your
:56:32. > :56:42.text poll is in. We asked is the Church of England wrong to oppose
:56:42. > :56:45.
:56:45. > :56:49.gay marriage? These are the result. What are your thoughts? It is not
:56:49. > :56:56.scientific, no disrespect to your programme. We need to look at it in
:56:56. > :57:01.its entirety. I wouldn't use that to beat Peter up. We need more
:57:01. > :57:05.debate about these issues and more discussion. It is good we lived in
:57:05. > :57:11.a democracy where that is allowed. I think people should have choices
:57:11. > :57:17.always, and if they want to be married in the church, whether they
:57:17. > :57:22.are gay or heterosexual, they should be able to. They don't know
:57:22. > :57:27.if they are marrying child sex abusers and so on, they don't do a
:57:27. > :57:34.check on anybody, so if two people want to get married, let them get
:57:34. > :57:38.married. The same in a mosque? respect how people have voted, but
:57:38. > :57:41.I would that at that a lot of people are under the mistaken
:57:41. > :57:46.belief that the government will force churches to make same-sex
:57:46. > :57:50.marriages and that is not true. The government has made it clear there
:57:50. > :57:57.will be no compulsion on people of faith to conduct these marriages.
:57:57. > :58:06.They will only take place in registry office. Thank you to
:58:06. > :58:10.everyone who has taken part today, to my guests as well. Don't text or