:00:13. > :00:16.A moral quagmire of almost biblical proportions, that is how the
:00:16. > :00:23.business secretary Vince Cable described the Barclays' rate fixing
:00:23. > :00:33.scandal. That -- but despite all that cheating that came met this
:00:33. > :00:46.
:00:46. > :00:49.week, do we need there greed? Is Good morning, I am Samira Ahmed,
:00:49. > :00:55.welcome to Sunday Morning Live. Barclays was accused of lying for
:00:55. > :00:59.profit this week by manipulating interbank interest rates. Up to 20
:00:59. > :01:05.other banks are being investigated for the same thing. Is this yet
:01:05. > :01:10.another sign that our bankers are driven by pure greed. The author
:01:10. > :01:17.Richard D North says so and so is greed is good. It is the greedy few
:01:17. > :01:22.who provide the goods, the services, the jobs, for the rest of us who
:01:22. > :01:27.are less red blooded. We need to stop seeing greed as the enemy.
:01:27. > :01:31.German court has called for a ban on non-medical male circumcision
:01:31. > :01:37.calling it illegal bodily harm. We will hear evidence from a doctor
:01:37. > :01:41.that some children are suffering life-threatening beading and
:01:41. > :01:47.infections. Is it time to ban it? Figures out this week show a
:01:47. > :01:51.growing gap between old and young. Are the older generation at ruining
:01:51. > :01:57.the chances of the younger generation? Or are the younger
:01:57. > :02:01.generation just slackers? My guests are all passionate about their dues.
:02:01. > :02:05.Diane Abbott was the first black woman ever to be elected to the
:02:05. > :02:09.Houses of Parliament. She has been called a maverick and a rebel.
:02:09. > :02:13.Rosie Millard is an author and broadcaster and she has survived
:02:13. > :02:19.�40,000 worth of debt and wants cover the Oscars in what Michael
:02:19. > :02:24.Buerk called the Best Supporting dress. Richard D North has written
:02:24. > :02:31.a book called which is beautiful and wants to ban the BBC. We want
:02:31. > :02:41.to know what you think. Call in now to challenge our guests on Skype.
:02:41. > :02:48.
:02:48. > :02:52.It is like a scene that from the film Wall Street. Barclays traders
:02:52. > :02:58.promised each other bottles of champagne to light about interest
:02:58. > :03:03.rates. Some say we should punish the arrogance of the banking system
:03:03. > :03:10.-- system which has left our country on the brink of collapse.
:03:10. > :03:14.This is Richard D North's Sunday stand. Look at all these headlines.
:03:14. > :03:20.Anyone would think that capitalism and banking were in deep crisis and
:03:20. > :03:25.it was because people became too greedy. That is nonsense.
:03:25. > :03:29.Capitalism has lifted millions of people out of grinding poverty and
:03:29. > :03:34.it does this good work not because there are masses of people who co-
:03:34. > :03:39.operate together, but because there are a few people in every society
:03:39. > :03:44.who are massively greedy and want to get ahead and get rich. We do
:03:44. > :03:47.not have to like these people, though they may be kind to their
:03:47. > :03:52.mothers and good fun around a dinner table, but we need plenty of
:03:52. > :03:58.them. These are the risk takers and they tend to be the Arthur male of
:03:58. > :04:02.the species. It is the greedy few who provide the jobs and services
:04:02. > :04:09.and goods that we less red blooded types need. Some greedy bankers
:04:09. > :04:13.will get very rich showing how safe their banks are for timid investors.
:04:13. > :04:19.But we will not make Britain a better place by disapproving of the
:04:19. > :04:26.very few people getting very rich. That is the key question, we need
:04:26. > :04:31.these people. No, greed is not good. There is a reason why it was termed
:04:31. > :04:36.a deadly cent and why mothers and fathers tell their children to
:04:36. > :04:44.share their toys. As a society with an tempered Crete it is morally and
:04:44. > :04:54.socially bankrupt. That is the question for our vote. His bankers'
:04:54. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:11.We will show how you voted at the end of the programme. I want to go
:05:11. > :05:16.to your first Bamiyan. This kind of happened under your Government's
:05:16. > :05:21.watch and your policy was greed is good and greed is working. Peter
:05:22. > :05:26.Mandelson and Tony Blair thought greed was good and adored bankers.
:05:26. > :05:33.People have accused me of a lot of things, but not of being part of
:05:33. > :05:36.the New Labour project. Greed is part of the human condition. Put a
:05:36. > :05:42.child at a birthday party and they will eat all the ice cream they can
:05:42. > :05:46.and tell they are sick. But to argue that greed is what has made
:05:46. > :05:52.other countries is silly. What makes countries work are creative
:05:52. > :05:58.people, manufacturers, designers and that is not to do with greed as
:05:58. > :06:02.such. Greed is part of the human condition, but particularly in
:06:02. > :06:07.banking and financial services natural greed has to be tempered
:06:07. > :06:13.either by an ethical framework. It is no coincidence that Lloyds and
:06:13. > :06:19.Barclays were set up by Quakers and the Jewish community in banking
:06:19. > :06:24.always had an ethical framework. You either had a strong ethical
:06:24. > :06:29.framework or state regulation. they have broken the rules and they
:06:29. > :06:36.have admitted it. Sure, but there is no equivalence between those who
:06:36. > :06:41.are extraordinarily greedy and people who have broken the law. It
:06:41. > :06:46.is an appetite and a temptation and everything needs a framework. In my
:06:46. > :06:51.view with luck it will turn out that these people broke the law and
:06:51. > :06:57.they can be punished and scared. The British public has had to spend
:06:57. > :07:02.billions to bail out these bankers and the British public should not
:07:02. > :07:06.have to rely on luck for things to go right. You need a framework and
:07:06. > :07:11.if you do not live in a society where ethics provide that framework,
:07:11. > :07:16.there has to be regulation. Otherwise the system implodes.
:07:16. > :07:22.will not make the system better by making people less greedy or
:07:22. > :07:26.somehow disapproving of their greed. You do it by making the law better,
:07:26. > :07:31.at the market better and by inducing in bankers, which they
:07:31. > :07:37.seriously lacked, a sense of their own professional dignity. None of
:07:37. > :07:42.that has got to do with being greedy. But they broke the law. So
:07:42. > :07:50.they get off Scot free or give back some of their bonuses? You are not
:07:50. > :07:55.listening. You have to drop a line? You do not draw a line on their
:07:55. > :08:00.greed, you surround it by the legal framework. If they broke the law,
:08:00. > :08:06.they should be punished. In the specific area of financial services
:08:06. > :08:13.greed is a problem and the reason it is a problem be caused of the
:08:13. > :08:16.bonus system. In the heyday before the crash what happened is the
:08:17. > :08:24.greedy bankers were chasing you on your bonuses and they got them on
:08:24. > :08:29.the basis of how much money... they got fined for spoiling the
:08:29. > :08:38.reputation of their firm, then they should get a bonus for the good
:08:38. > :08:44.they bring the firm. Chasing greedily short-term bonuses nearly
:08:44. > :08:54.destroyed the international banking system. We have got a financial
:08:54. > :08:55.
:08:55. > :09:04.view, it is from Reuters. Does Crete have a role? Does that not
:09:04. > :09:11.motivate bankers to do their best? Greed is defined as an a measured,
:09:11. > :09:18.excessive desire for good. Greed cannot really be a good thing. It
:09:18. > :09:23.is a contradiction in terms. Did it disrupt the BACS system? There is
:09:23. > :09:29.no question, it disrupted it, it made it worse. There were risks
:09:29. > :09:32.that were inappropriate. That is what Crete is supposed to do, it is
:09:32. > :09:36.supposed to make you do things that are foolish. The idea that it is a
:09:36. > :09:46.source of good things does not make sense, it is a contradiction in
:09:46. > :09:48.
:09:48. > :09:52.terms. Greed is the downside of the search for prosperity. The word co-
:09:52. > :09:57.operative is coming up at the moment. The Co-operative Bank in
:09:57. > :10:03.the UK is taking over some branches of Lloyds. Should we go back to the
:10:03. > :10:13.Quaker model, the corporate of mutual? Yes, I am a big fan of
:10:13. > :10:14.
:10:14. > :10:20.mutual banking. Co-operative Bank, those that are not run for profit
:10:20. > :10:27.is a very successful system. There is a very modest role for more
:10:27. > :10:31.risk-taking banks. I want to bring in another contributor on the
:10:31. > :10:38.webcam. Bankers make a lot of money and we have already had to bail
:10:38. > :10:43.them out. The bonus culture is part of the problem. They are not
:10:43. > :10:48.contributing to society. There is understandably a sense of injustice
:10:48. > :10:52.about what has gone on in the banking sector. But the top 1% of
:10:52. > :10:57.income earners in this country pay more than a quarter of all income
:10:57. > :11:01.tax. When you think about the number of hospitals and schools
:11:01. > :11:05.that contributes to, when you look at the banking sector you consider
:11:05. > :11:11.the number of jobs it creates and the role it plays in terms of
:11:11. > :11:17.investment. What has gone wrong is that taxpayers ended up bailing out
:11:17. > :11:21.banks. We need to move forward. What we need to make sure is that
:11:22. > :11:25.we have a situation where taxpayers do not bail out banks again and we
:11:25. > :11:31.build a society where we buy you all those people who create wealth,
:11:31. > :11:35.including bankers. They pay their income tax. We have paid about as
:11:35. > :11:40.much to them bailing them out. This whole thing about how we need the
:11:40. > :11:46.bankers, where are their charitable works? There was a very good
:11:46. > :11:52.programme on the other day about a street in London where houses were
:11:52. > :11:59.all worth �6 million all bought by bankers. They do not take part in
:11:59. > :12:06.the Big Society. Where is that with the bankers? Absolutely nowhere.
:12:06. > :12:11.They have caused a double-dip recession. They have helped the
:12:11. > :12:16.global financial crisis and austerity measures for us. The idea
:12:16. > :12:23.that some sort of moral police is going to get greedy out to people...
:12:23. > :12:28.Hang on. I have not said anything about a moral point. I do not want
:12:28. > :12:34.to be misrepresented. All I have said is greed is part of the human
:12:34. > :12:40.condition, but it has to be in a framework. The state has to step in
:12:40. > :12:47.with regulation. Otherwise it is like the Wild West. There is more
:12:47. > :12:50.to that. In a sensible market system if your bank has got a
:12:50. > :12:56.reputation for screwing its customers, losing money and getting
:12:56. > :13:01.on the wrong side of law, that should turn up in the share price
:13:01. > :13:07.and investors should find a safer bank. The problem with that things
:13:07. > :13:11.which we all agree are appallingly wrong was people broke the law. It
:13:11. > :13:17.does not matter whether they were greedy people or Bircher as, Cuddy
:13:17. > :13:21.people breaking the law, they broke the law. It is not a question of
:13:21. > :13:29.making them less greedy, but it is a question of making the law more
:13:29. > :13:34.effective. I am not saying you can make people less greedy. You could
:13:34. > :13:37.provide a regulatory structure so that they agreed does not harm us.
:13:37. > :13:42.One of the problems with the current banking crisis is you do
:13:42. > :13:46.not have a division between ordinary retail bankers who provide
:13:46. > :13:53.the jobs and the people who gamble on international markets. What you
:13:53. > :14:03.need to do is to separate those off. Then at the international gamblers
:14:03. > :14:03.
:14:03. > :14:08.if they implode, it has got nothing to do with us. Casinos in this
:14:08. > :14:13.country are incredibly regulated. am not arguing against regulation,
:14:13. > :14:19.but it has to be as light as possible and as intelligent and as
:14:19. > :14:26.effective as possible. The doctrine of light touch regulation brought
:14:26. > :14:32.us the Lehmann Brothers crash and Bob diming saying I did not know
:14:32. > :14:38.anything. A new design a nice, heavy, clod-hopping regulation. It
:14:38. > :14:41.is not about that. It is making sure that banks that adequate
:14:41. > :14:50.resources so that when things go wrong, we do not have to bail them
:14:50. > :14:54.out. Also manipulating the bonus culture. Why is it the people who
:14:54. > :15:04.run Rolls-Royce he genuinely produce jobs at not get those
:15:04. > :15:06.
:15:06. > :15:10.bonuses? It is a disease and we We are having a discussion about if
:15:10. > :15:15.we should be talking about greed as a moral problem or if we should
:15:16. > :15:20.just regulate when they break the law? Under a market system, as Mr
:15:20. > :15:24.North says, you expect people to have a concern for reputation. They
:15:25. > :15:29.ought to behave in their commercial interests. A company that loses
:15:29. > :15:33.their reputation can lose a lot of business. Why have banks forgotten
:15:33. > :15:37.this? Why are banks no longer concerned about good reputation?
:15:37. > :15:40.The answer is that the normal market mechanism for punishing them
:15:40. > :15:47.has been removed by government guarantees. You might have expected
:15:47. > :15:50.a run on a bank that had terrible behaviour, like Barclays, if banks
:15:50. > :15:54.seemed untrustworthy. You don't get that now, because the Government
:15:54. > :15:59.guarantees deposits. When you lend money to weigh bank, you're not
:15:59. > :16:02.concerned about bank behaviour. You don't care because of you get a
:16:02. > :16:08.government guarantee. The banks themselves no longer work at being
:16:08. > :16:11.prudent and cultivating a culture of prudence, advertising their
:16:11. > :16:15.prudence. The economic value of prudence and trustworthiness has
:16:15. > :16:19.been removed by the Government guaranteed. Isn't there a question
:16:19. > :16:24.about the greed of us? Shareholders are encouraged to go for maximum
:16:24. > :16:28.profits, we invest in banks. It's some of the spotlight on
:16:28. > :16:32.shareholder greed? Shareholder greed, we have all of the good
:16:32. > :16:37.effects that Mr North says. If it was disciplined, and we are talking
:16:37. > :16:42.about reining in greed, the market system without these perversions of
:16:42. > :16:44.guarantees does rain in greed. If you are greedy in a market system,
:16:44. > :16:49.you have to provide people with goods and services that they value.
:16:49. > :16:53.It makes you work for them. Vince Cable is talking about
:16:53. > :16:58.shareholders' revolting against bonuses and pay culture. But we are
:16:58. > :17:03.part of that system? People feel this empowered. How can we revolt
:17:03. > :17:06.against banks? Stop using them? People feel deeply powerless. They
:17:06. > :17:10.look to the Government to take the lead. The Government is their
:17:10. > :17:15.constituency, they are in cahoots with the banks and the Tory party
:17:15. > :17:21.is naturally an ally of the banks. Therefore, I suspect they are not
:17:21. > :17:30.going to be heavy-handed in punishment. People feel powerless.
:17:30. > :17:35.In fact, though, shareholders have recently got together... Unless the
:17:35. > :17:38.law changes, they don't have any power? It's interesting that they
:17:38. > :17:42.are starting to question these huge pay packages and the bonuses, which
:17:42. > :17:46.I think are cancerous. If you change the law and gave
:17:46. > :17:50.shareholders more power, I think that would be a good thing. I think
:17:50. > :17:53.there has been a huge change of character right across the top of
:17:53. > :17:56.modern capitalism. But that is a matter of their personal
:17:56. > :18:01.responsibility, the sense of their professional dignity, not a
:18:01. > :18:05.question of whether they want to get shared loads of money.
:18:05. > :18:09.viewer says that figures show that cree does not eliminate poverty.
:18:09. > :18:13.Belinda says that greed is not good for Britain, you can't be greedy
:18:14. > :18:23.for the benefit of a nation, just for personal gain. That is our poll
:18:24. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:44.You have about 20 minutes before This week, a German court called
:18:44. > :18:48.for a ban on religious circumcision of children, which is a fundamental
:18:48. > :18:51.part of the Jewish and Muslim faith. There is evidence from a GP here
:18:51. > :18:55.suggesting that the operation is leading to serious injury in a
:18:55. > :18:58.small number of cases affecting very young children. Is a band an
:18:59. > :19:03.attack on the rights of parents practising their religion or should
:19:03. > :19:07.the rights of a child come first? A German court has ruled that
:19:07. > :19:10.circumcision of boys for religious reasons is a crime, sparking fury
:19:10. > :19:13.among religious groups to carry out the procedure. The court found that
:19:13. > :19:18.a child's right to decide what happens to their body is more
:19:18. > :19:22.important than the parents's right of freedom of religion. It centred
:19:22. > :19:24.on a four-year-old Muslim boy who suffered severe bleeding shortly
:19:24. > :19:28.after undergoing a religious circumcision. The doctor was
:19:28. > :19:32.charged with grievous bodily harm, but has since been acquitted.
:19:32. > :19:38.Following the judgment, the law is now clear. Circumcisions for
:19:38. > :19:42.religious reasons are not allowed, but it may still be carried out for
:19:42. > :19:47.medical reasons. Because it came from a regional court, the ruling
:19:47. > :19:50.only applies to the Cologne area. Lawyers say it could set a
:19:50. > :19:56.precedent, outlawing religious a consistent across the whole of
:19:56. > :20:00.Germany. -- circumcision. Some have described it as an attack on
:20:00. > :20:03.religious freedom. Jews say that circumcision is a commandment of
:20:03. > :20:08.their faith and have described the new law as anti-Semitic.
:20:08. > :20:13.If you have a webcam, you can make your point on Skype, or you can
:20:13. > :20:18.join in through Twitter, phone, text or e-mail. We are joined by Dr
:20:18. > :20:23.Antony Lempert, from the Secular Medical Forum, and a Jonathan
:20:23. > :20:27.Arkush, from the Board of Deputies of British Jews. It is just an
:20:27. > :20:31.attack on Jews and Muslims, it is so fundamental to their faith?
:20:31. > :20:36.important thing to look at us from the perspective of the child. It's
:20:37. > :20:40.very easy to focus on adult religious views. From my
:20:40. > :20:44.perspective as a GP, child safety is very important. The German
:20:44. > :20:48.ruling is interesting. It doesn't say that circumcision is illegal,
:20:48. > :20:52.that it could be legal if there is therapeutic reasons and also that
:20:52. > :20:56.it could be legal for a Jewish or Muslim adult male to make that
:20:56. > :21:00.choice themselves. This is saying that it is harmful and
:21:00. > :21:03.inappropriate to make this decision for a child before they are at a
:21:03. > :21:06.stage when they can make their decision. It is recognising that
:21:06. > :21:10.the operation is not without considerable harm. Jonathan, it is
:21:10. > :21:14.a matter of consent, why can't children do it when they are old
:21:14. > :21:20.enough to decide? In the Jewish community in the United Kingdom,
:21:20. > :21:26.circumcision, it is a simple, straightforward and very safe
:21:26. > :21:30.procedure. It is carried out on baby boys in a community, more than
:21:30. > :21:35.1000 per year. Any sort of complication is virtually unknown
:21:35. > :21:40.in this country. I am with Anthoney that it should be carried out
:21:40. > :21:45.competently. If it is regulated, as it is in the Jewish community in
:21:45. > :21:48.this country, there are no incidents of problems. But consent
:21:48. > :21:52.itself, you don't accept that babies and infants are too young to
:21:52. > :21:55.consent? They are too young to consent. They are too young to
:21:55. > :21:58.consent to lots of things in the way they are brought up. But
:21:58. > :22:02.parents have the legal right to make the decision for their
:22:02. > :22:06.children, which is in the best interests of the children. My
:22:06. > :22:10.argument, which I might go back to later, is that it is in the best
:22:10. > :22:14.interests of children that are brought up in the Tennant's lager
:22:14. > :22:17.ancient faith to have a circumcision. It would be very
:22:17. > :22:20.cruel to deny them a circumcision. By the time they are 18, they had a
:22:20. > :22:25.pretty rough time because they look different from their fellow Jewish
:22:25. > :22:30.children. When they are 18, the operation is painful. It is not
:22:30. > :22:33.when you are a baby. wholeheartedly disagree. There are
:22:33. > :22:36.many children nowadays, many adults, who do not follow their parents
:22:36. > :22:41.traditional religious beliefs. These children must be given the
:22:41. > :22:44.same standards that we give all children in terms of safeguarding.
:22:44. > :22:48.There are good standards already in terms of doing medical procedures
:22:48. > :22:52.on anybody. As a doctor, I have to think very carefully about the
:22:52. > :22:56.balance of risks and benefits when I treat a child or adult without
:22:56. > :23:00.capacity. You must always take the least restrictive option. You must
:23:00. > :23:03.think about whether the person will later have the capacity to make the
:23:03. > :23:08.decision and also what is in the best interests. I take Jonathan's
:23:08. > :23:13.point about them looking different, the same arguments were used in
:23:13. > :23:17.terms of the law on female genital mutilation, which were very clear.
:23:17. > :23:21.Section 15 says that it is very clear that the argument that it is
:23:21. > :23:24.in it the best interests of the child to be part of their community
:23:24. > :23:32.is thrown out because it does not hold water. These children must be
:23:32. > :23:36.allowed to make their own decisions. The comparison with female genital
:23:36. > :23:42.mutilation is deeply unfair. It is a harmful, invasive procedure, a
:23:42. > :23:48.horrible thing to do with any child. There has never been a medical
:23:48. > :23:54.reason for that? Circumcision does not come into that category. What I
:23:54. > :23:58.was interested is that he is out of step with his own regulatory body,
:23:58. > :24:03.the General Medical Council, and his own trade union, the British
:24:03. > :24:08.Medical Association. They have both written guidance on the practice of
:24:08. > :24:11.circumcision for faith reasons and they have both said the
:24:11. > :24:15.formulations that I made earlier, that it is a doctor to respect what
:24:15. > :24:22.is in the best interests of the child and take into account
:24:22. > :24:28.parental wishes. It is certainly true that the doctor has' the
:24:28. > :24:31.regulatory authorities sits on the fence at the moment. In terms of
:24:31. > :24:35.the Medical Association, they have even said that circumcision may be
:24:35. > :24:40.illegal under existing legal standards. I need to come back on
:24:40. > :24:44.the point about the misperception that circumcision does not cause
:24:44. > :24:49.harm. The evidence is growing quite dramatically, even over recent
:24:49. > :24:53.weeks, about the harm. We know already that many adult men suffer
:24:53. > :24:56.enormous harm. But they do not speak about it, a lot of them. A
:24:56. > :25:00.lot of them get ridiculed when they do. We know from evidence that the
:25:00. > :25:04.part that is removed is one of the most sensitive parts of the penis,
:25:04. > :25:08.alters their sexual function for life. We know it affects their
:25:08. > :25:12.partners, from a study published last year in Denmark. We had
:25:12. > :25:18.evidence from the FE mayor -- Freedom of Information Research,
:25:18. > :25:21.that show that in one hospital alone, in one year, 2011, the
:25:21. > :25:31.serious, life-threatening complications, including
:25:31. > :25:31.
:25:31. > :25:39.haemorrhage, infection, children admitted to paediatric intensive
:25:39. > :25:44.care units was 11. 11 people in intensive care with serious
:25:44. > :25:49.complications. If you were Jewish, do you think this is something you
:25:49. > :25:56.would do? It is fundamental to so many families? It is. It has been
:25:56. > :26:02.going on for thousands of years. For Muslims, Jews, children in hot
:26:02. > :26:07.countries, it is clearly enshrined in Jewish faith. I think the fact
:26:07. > :26:13.that it is a German court that has stuck their head up above the
:26:13. > :26:18.parapet and said, no, no, no, I think it is deeply culturally
:26:18. > :26:23.insensitive. Let's not forget that two-thirds of Europe's jury was
:26:23. > :26:27.wiped out by the Germans. They sent 1 million children to their deaths.
:26:27. > :26:35.And circumcision was one of the ways they used to look for them as
:26:35. > :26:40.well? Leave Jewish practices alone. Let them get on with their faith.
:26:40. > :26:45.Circumcision is a key part of Jewish faith. The German embassy in
:26:45. > :26:48.London gave a statement a couple of days ago. They said the decision in
:26:48. > :26:52.Germany deviates from the usual legal rules in Germany. The embassy
:26:52. > :26:56.would not have said that without the Government support. A baby they
:26:56. > :27:02.said it because it was Germany? They have stuck their head above
:27:02. > :27:08.the parapet. It is a relatively lower court decision. I'm sure it
:27:08. > :27:12.will be appealed and I am confident it will be overturned. I fully
:27:12. > :27:14.support freedom of religion. These babies and children have not yet
:27:14. > :27:21.formed their view about what their religion is going to be. These
:27:21. > :27:29.babies and children must be allowed the opportunity to to do that.
:27:29. > :27:31.you would say that children cannot be christened. If you are not in
:27:31. > :27:35.some while imposing your own standards on them, you bring your
:27:35. > :27:40.children that, I have seen, with a secular agenda. That is your right.
:27:40. > :27:45.I bring up my children with a faith agenda, surely that is my right?
:27:45. > :27:49.May I respond? I think that is very important. We recognise in society
:27:49. > :27:53.that of course parents have the right to share their views. But to
:27:53. > :27:58.make a permanent, irreversible Bordley changed to somebody,
:27:58. > :28:02.affecting their most private, intimate part, this goes against
:28:02. > :28:10.every single principle of medicine, certainly the medicine that I know.
:28:10. > :28:15.I want to bring on a contributor through webcam. There is evidence,
:28:15. > :28:17.11 cases in Birmingham, they were Muslim children. People are
:28:17. > :28:22.carrying it out, they are not thinking enough about the safety of
:28:22. > :28:24.their children. Don't you have to accept, it may be your religion,
:28:24. > :28:29.but you need to let them choose for themselves when they are old
:28:29. > :28:34.enough? It is very interesting, the debate. Of course, it is not
:28:34. > :28:38.straightforward. I have listened to all of the arguments. The faith of
:28:38. > :28:43.a child does not depend on whether they have a piece of foreskin or
:28:43. > :28:47.not. Once they are adults, clearly, even if they are circumcised, they
:28:47. > :28:51.can choose to leave Islam if they want to, or Judaism. That does not
:28:51. > :28:54.prevent them from making a choice of religion. But answer the
:28:54. > :28:59.question about whether, when we know there are big relations going
:28:59. > :29:05.on, operations going wrong, that it is right that religious people like
:29:05. > :29:10.you are advocating it on infants? What we must do without any had a
:29:10. > :29:13.patient -- hesitation is to make sure that these operations are
:29:13. > :29:19.carried out by competent individuals, under clinical
:29:19. > :29:23.conditions, where the child's safety is of utmost importance. If
:29:23. > :29:26.we can continue to provide this provision for our diverse
:29:26. > :29:33.communities, then we are well on the road of integrating our
:29:33. > :29:37.communities. Let me put that to Anthoney. If it is done in hospital,
:29:38. > :29:47.it used to be available on the NHS, many children have it done in
:29:48. > :29:50.
:29:50. > :29:53.America for hygiene reasons, what We come back to the basic, medical
:29:53. > :29:58.principles in that it should not be performed on the child without
:29:58. > :30:04.their consent. Two Primary Care Trusts in Birmingham already
:30:04. > :30:09.provide it on the NHS. But it would be saved. It would not be safe.
:30:09. > :30:15.They are already losing the most sensitive part of their penis. The
:30:15. > :30:20.level of complication is still there. The world horse -- World
:30:20. > :30:25.Health Organisation figures say one third of males in the world are
:30:25. > :30:29.circumcised. If it is the case that a whole lot of these people have
:30:30. > :30:33.terrible, psychological traumas, I think we would know about it by now.
:30:33. > :30:40.But is it not about protecting the most vulnerable when things go
:30:40. > :30:45.wrong. I want to bring in another contributor. I understand you were
:30:45. > :30:50.circumcised as a child, but not for religious reasons. It had a
:30:50. > :30:55.terrible effect on me. I was not told anything about what had
:30:55. > :31:01.happened to me. I only discovered it when I was in my teenage years.
:31:01. > :31:05.I noticed I was different from all my friends. I thought I had been
:31:05. > :31:12.born deformed. When I learnt somebody had actually done this to
:31:12. > :31:16.me I was totally devastated. When you hear somebody like Jonathan
:31:16. > :31:21.saying for Jewish children in their faith it is part of their
:31:21. > :31:28.belongings. Do you accept your experience may not be typical?
:31:28. > :31:37.it does not really matter whether you have a religion or not. I
:31:37. > :31:42.receive calls and inquiries from men who are in a religious faith.
:31:42. > :31:46.They still have the same psychological damage. Do not get
:31:46. > :31:50.too disheartened because you are in good company because the royal
:31:50. > :31:56.family have traditionally agreed circumcision and many members of
:31:56. > :32:02.the royal family are circumcised. You are dismissing his experience
:32:02. > :32:06.about he -- how he and other men feel. I would say in the Jewish
:32:07. > :32:10.faith it is the opposite. If a Jewish child was not circumcised he
:32:10. > :32:16.too would be a different because he did not look like the same as his
:32:16. > :32:21.peers. I also felt devastated. The psychological damage is bad enough,
:32:21. > :32:25.but it is when I discovered that physical damage and when I reached
:32:25. > :32:31.puberty and things that should have been happening were not, I was
:32:31. > :32:35.struggling with this. I realised it was a double whammy. I do not care
:32:35. > :32:41.what anybody thinks, the effect it had on me is real and the effect it
:32:41. > :32:45.has on many men is real. Thank you for speaking to us about it.
:32:46. > :32:51.would like to say how enormously brave Jonathan is to speak about
:32:51. > :32:56.this. One of the reasons we do not hear about it is it is so hard for
:32:56. > :33:01.men to stand up and say, I have been harmed. I have met many of
:33:01. > :33:06.them. There are large organisations of Jewish and Muslim groups where
:33:06. > :33:10.people belong and they say, it did not have a serious side effect on
:33:10. > :33:15.me. There are also individuals who have left the faith who realise
:33:15. > :33:21.they have been harmed and they can do nothing about it. I want to
:33:21. > :33:25.bring in a contributor from Jerusalem. You are Jewish. You have
:33:25. > :33:30.heard the discussion. If the procedure was done properly in a
:33:30. > :33:33.hospital, would that be the way out? It is about protecting
:33:33. > :33:38.people's faith, you know how strongly Jews and Muslims be about
:33:38. > :33:42.this. It would be a step in the right direction and should be
:33:42. > :33:48.welcomed and encouraged for it to be done in a sterile, medical
:33:48. > :33:52.environment. But it does not get around the fundamental issue which
:33:52. > :33:56.is that this is an elected a surgical procedure that has been
:33:56. > :34:05.performed without the person concerned knowing and it is the
:34:05. > :34:14.most intimate body part. It needs all manner of -- it leads to all
:34:14. > :34:21.manner of post traumatic stress disorder at. That is something that
:34:21. > :34:25.is true as well for Jews. I do not agree it is just those who are not
:34:25. > :34:31.part of the Jewish community. you think it is morally wrong if
:34:31. > :34:36.you are a Jewish parent and you do not have your child circumcise?
:34:36. > :34:39.I do. The child would know at a very early stage that the
:34:39. > :34:43.Commandments going back 4000 years of which Jewish people have
:34:43. > :34:48.faithfully observed and are intrinsic to your sense of identity
:34:48. > :34:52.and who you are and what you look like as a Jewish male, he would not
:34:52. > :34:58.have had that. When he is old enough to have it electively done,
:34:58. > :35:02.it is a much more intrusive and unpleasant procedure. Having it
:35:02. > :35:07.back at eight days, the biblical command, is the best time for a
:35:07. > :35:12.child. Obviously it should be done properly and in a hospital. It is
:35:12. > :35:19.not for us, another grey, to dictate what this group does with
:35:19. > :35:22.its children and it is for that group to basically decide. With
:35:22. > :35:26.trial safeguarding we must not neglect their children just because
:35:26. > :35:33.they happen to have been born in one or other different religious
:35:33. > :35:37.group. Traditions change. There is a tradition which is a peaceful
:35:37. > :35:40.welcoming of the child into the Jewish community. If more Jewish
:35:40. > :35:47.and Muslim parents knew about the harm they were causing their
:35:47. > :35:51.children, they would move away from Des. One comment, in years to come
:35:51. > :35:57.people will look back on things like circumcision and think we were
:35:57. > :36:01.brutal, bling fed and archaic. Discuss. Later on Sunday morning
:36:01. > :36:06.live, some pensioners may be living in poverty, but for others this is
:36:06. > :36:11.a golden age. They have benefited from a free university education, a
:36:11. > :36:15.growth in house prices and generous pensions. But the younger
:36:15. > :36:20.generation cannot afford houses, they are paying for university and
:36:20. > :36:24.many of them are unemployed. Is it time the older gave up their
:36:24. > :36:31.privileges? Or is it time that the younger stopped moaning and worked
:36:31. > :36:41.harder? Keep voting in our poll. His bankers' greed good for
:36:41. > :36:45.
:36:45. > :36:55.Britain? You have got about five minutes before the polls close. Or
:36:55. > :36:59.you can vote online. It is time for our moral moments of the week. A
:36:59. > :37:04.British man on death row in Abu Dhabi caught selling a very small
:37:04. > :37:10.amount of marijuana. The he was given the death penalty for selling
:37:10. > :37:14.one ounce of marijuana. That seems pretty disproportionate to me. Drug
:37:14. > :37:18.dealing is a terrible offence, it should be punishable by a stiff
:37:18. > :37:22.sentence. If you live in these countries, you should understand
:37:22. > :37:29.there are steps sentences, but having said that death for selling
:37:29. > :37:34.one ounce of marijuana seems to be way out of line. I could not agree
:37:34. > :37:39.more. I think taking someone's the life away for any crime is
:37:39. > :37:43.reprehensible, but certainly for minor crimes. People have to
:37:43. > :37:49.respect the general laws within the countries they find themselves, but
:37:49. > :37:53.I cannot support killing an individual. We know this is the law.
:37:53. > :37:58.They go out to work their tax free and this is the flipside of this.
:37:58. > :38:02.It is a barbaric and let us hope there is a global horror and this
:38:02. > :38:08.will not happen. It is good it has got such big publicity because it
:38:08. > :38:13.is outrageous. Will they commute it? We have such a strong
:38:13. > :38:19.relationship and they always do. am sure they will. This is about
:38:19. > :38:25.proposals to change the name. it has been changed. The tower in
:38:25. > :38:29.which Big Ben is housed is now going to be called the Elizabeth
:38:29. > :38:34.Power after the Jubilee to match a similar power in the House of Lords
:38:34. > :38:38.called the Victoria Tower. I think this is disgraceful. This is the
:38:38. > :38:44.seat of our Parliament, the mother of parliaments where the nation has
:38:44. > :38:49.a safe. It is nothing to do with the royal family. We have too many
:38:49. > :38:52.monuments with Royal attached to them. Let's have more national
:38:52. > :38:58.monuments. If that is not a national monument, I do not know
:38:58. > :39:05.what is. We are giving buildings affectionate names like the gherkin.
:39:05. > :39:12.Big Ben is the name of that building. I am going to agree
:39:12. > :39:19.wholeheartedly with Rosie. As far as Queen Elizabeth goes, set her
:39:19. > :39:21.free. Pension her off. I think the Queen's name should be commemorated
:39:21. > :39:26.in this Diamond Jubilee year, wherever it is suitable, but I
:39:26. > :39:31.would not like to see Big Ben changed. It is one of our biggest
:39:31. > :39:36.tourist attractions. It is called the clock tower, Big Ben is the
:39:36. > :39:41.name of the clock. That is appropriate, it is not part of the
:39:41. > :39:49.Royal set up. The Queen is not allowed in the House of Commons.
:39:49. > :39:56.have deep affection for the name Big Ben and it is an icon. Anthony,
:39:56. > :40:00.you have got a story about a problem in a school in Portsmouth.
:40:00. > :40:07.The head teacher banned the peoples from talking. They had to whisper
:40:07. > :40:12.to each other in break time. headmaster said the noise level was
:40:12. > :40:15.breaking health and safety rules. Absolutely and it sounded as if the
:40:15. > :40:24.teachers were getting too much noise in the classroom, so they
:40:24. > :40:28.were worried if they had it louder they would get migraine. Brunel
:40:28. > :40:33.might have approved of the solution, give it back to the children and
:40:33. > :40:38.help them explain what the problem is. They be it is an engineering
:40:38. > :40:43.issue with the building. The sound of children laughing and talking is
:40:43. > :40:46.one of the most joyous sounds in the world. It is a mark of
:40:46. > :40:53.civilisation to be able to talk and eat and they should be allowed to
:40:53. > :40:57.do it. As a society we seem to be so risk averse. When we disapprove
:40:57. > :41:02.of something, we ban it. There has to be a balance struck between the
:41:02. > :41:09.likelihood of harm caused and the far-reaching effects of what
:41:09. > :41:15.happens when you ban something. Dani to release all that energy.
:41:15. > :41:21.White our children are always being told to keep quiet. You love them
:41:21. > :41:26.dearly, but they are out of control. To stop children from being heard
:41:26. > :41:30.in a school is patently ludicrous. If they do not allow the children
:41:30. > :41:35.to release the energy, they were just really sit back in the
:41:35. > :41:39.classroom again. Is this a problem you can understand? Jewish schools
:41:39. > :41:46.are supposed to be terribly noisy it. The kids are exuberant, but
:41:47. > :41:54.give them a break at break time. You have been voting in our poll.
:41:54. > :42:03.The poll is closing now. Please do not text as your vote may not count.
:42:03. > :42:06.We will bring you the result at the end of the show. David Cameron said
:42:06. > :42:11.this week he would let rich pensioners keep their free bus
:42:11. > :42:16.passes, winter fuel allowances and TV licences while telling young
:42:16. > :42:21.people many do not deserve housing benefit. He is he right to give to
:42:21. > :42:26.the old and take from the young? Or is the growing power and wealth of
:42:26. > :42:30.the older generation damaging the chances of young people? Research
:42:30. > :42:34.out this week suggests the economic gap between young and old is
:42:34. > :42:38.getting bigger. There is no doubt the young are facing significant
:42:38. > :42:43.challenges. It is harder to find a job, pay for education and it is
:42:43. > :42:46.more difficult to get on the housing ladder. Some say it is
:42:46. > :42:51.because the old are getting it to good and they should downsize,
:42:51. > :42:56.giving up bigger homes or younger families. They should be lower down
:42:56. > :43:01.on the NHS lists and stay out of the workforce. But have pensioners
:43:01. > :43:06.earned the right to live as best they can? They have paid their dues
:43:06. > :43:11.and endured hardships. Many have no option but to find a job or stay in
:43:12. > :43:16.work as long as possible. This week as the BBC launches its special
:43:16. > :43:20.season looking at life for pensioners, the future it seems is
:43:21. > :43:25.even bleaker. The Government has not told us how high the pension
:43:25. > :43:30.age is likely to rise, but we are meeting someone who has worked it
:43:30. > :43:35.out. The Government published a study which suggested a third of
:43:35. > :43:40.people born today might live to 100. That is quite scary because it is
:43:40. > :43:47.rare for people to live to 100. question is, who is going to pay
:43:47. > :43:52.for them? Faced with an ever ageing population is it our elders' job to
:43:52. > :43:57.step aside? Or in a broken economy should all generations be working
:43:57. > :44:07.together towards a better future? You can join in on this one by a
:44:07. > :44:08.
:44:09. > :44:17.webcam or online. We are joined by Jonathan Arkush. Is it right that
:44:17. > :44:23.the over-sixties have it all and 80% of the wealth is owned by over-
:44:23. > :44:27.sixties. But they are not means tested for bus passes, eye care,
:44:27. > :44:30.fuel allowances. Yet mothers with small children are means tested.
:44:30. > :44:34.The universal benefit for parents has been removed. Children are
:44:34. > :44:38.going to have to pay to go to university. Students do not get
:44:38. > :44:43.free bus passes. Wouldn't you rather have free bus passes used by
:44:43. > :44:48.young people to go and get jobs, or apply for jobs, and old people to
:44:48. > :44:51.use them to go to museums and galleries? Simon, you have been a
:44:51. > :44:57.teacher for three decades. Young people do have it tougher now,
:44:57. > :45:01.surely? You mean children? young people. At well, I wouldn't
:45:01. > :45:05.have thought so. Things like learning support, there is a whole
:45:05. > :45:10.industry that now exists. Careers advice. We do everything we
:45:10. > :45:14.possibly can, graduate schemes, it internships. They need jobs and
:45:14. > :45:20.can't find them. When I was at school in the 1970s, it was sink or
:45:20. > :45:24.swim. The only bit of advice... I wasn't given any advice, I was
:45:24. > :45:28.asked what I had to do when I grow up. You got a free university
:45:28. > :45:32.place! They are not paying at source. They only pay the money
:45:32. > :45:38.when they get their jobs. If they don't get the job that pays
:45:38. > :45:42.whatever it happens to be, �20,000 plus, they don't have to pay back.
:45:42. > :45:45.All I'm saying is, as far as old people are concerned, they are
:45:45. > :45:49.living longer, healthier lifestyles. I think we should celebrate that
:45:49. > :45:55.fact. But they are not going for the same sort of jobs that young
:45:55. > :46:00.people are getting. Older people, 50 plus, they are not hankering
:46:00. > :46:04.after some young apprentices scheme, some graduate scheme at Marks &
:46:04. > :46:08.Spencer or wherever, or any other high street retailer. The sort of
:46:08. > :46:13.jobs they are going for it is different anyway. 80,000 pensioners
:46:13. > :46:17.who live abroad claimed their winter fuel allowance. That costs
:46:17. > :46:25.our country �10 million. That is a nonsense, if you are living in
:46:25. > :46:30.Spain on your pension and claiming winter fuel allowance, madness!
:46:30. > :46:34.may be an anomaly if you can claim your allowance if you are abroad,
:46:34. > :46:38.but I think she is falling for something that the Government is
:46:38. > :46:40.using as a tactic, turning old against young, indigenous people
:46:40. > :46:44.against immigrants, there are challenges facing young people but
:46:44. > :46:50.they are not because old people have a pension they can live on. It
:46:50. > :46:57.is because we are now having to spend billions as a society to bail
:46:57. > :47:01.out the banks. Because we have a generation of politicians who
:47:01. > :47:06.believe in a smaller state, and as part of their pretext for cutting
:47:06. > :47:10.state benefits they say, look at all of these old people. No. There
:47:10. > :47:15.may be anomalies, I'm not saying that. But the previous generation
:47:15. > :47:19.have had it better. The what do you mean, we have had it better?!
:47:19. > :47:25.baby-boomers got the benefit of all of the free stuff and final salary
:47:25. > :47:29.pension schemes... Lower house prices, their parents died earlier
:47:29. > :47:33.and they got hold of the assets. of course, there are a generation
:47:33. > :47:37.of people who benefited from a welfare state, free health care and
:47:37. > :47:40.education. But I'm afraid I believe in universal benefits. Its old
:47:40. > :47:46.fashioned, but I believe that a range of universal benefits. But
:47:46. > :47:54.you have a taxation system at the high end. Setting old against Young
:47:54. > :47:57.is dangerous. Old people don't feel they should be getting winter fuel
:47:57. > :48:00.allowances for staff those people can send their money back. We paid
:48:00. > :48:05.the tableau that young people had it so hard. When I asked my
:48:05. > :48:09.adoptive mother when I was 20 a 21, could I have a car? She said, of
:48:09. > :48:12.course, as long as you can afford to pay for it and pay for the tax
:48:12. > :48:19.and insurance. Now we see more and more people, they had everything
:48:19. > :48:25.they want. That's complete nonsense! This picture that they
:48:25. > :48:28.are hard done by his nonsense. have an actual young person joining
:48:28. > :48:31.as through webcam. Charlotte Buchanan, you are a student.
:48:31. > :48:37.Absolute nonsense about you lot of moaning about having a tough? You
:48:37. > :48:40.just need to get on with it like the older generation did? Yeah, we
:48:40. > :48:44.do have it tough. It is impossible to get a job at the moment with the
:48:44. > :48:48.economic climate. They awry internships, but they are often
:48:48. > :48:53.unpaid. That means you cannot do it unless you have a supportive family
:48:53. > :48:56.that can pay at least for the transport. There are so few
:48:56. > :49:00.opportunities. The older generation, they had these opportunities to
:49:00. > :49:04.work harder, which we just don't have any more. Tell me about your
:49:04. > :49:08.view on the winter fuel allowance, what could you do with that �200?
:49:08. > :49:11.So much money! I think it is shocking, it is not even means
:49:11. > :49:14.tested like someone was saying earlier. How fair is it that
:49:15. > :49:18.someone who has worked hard and probably lead to a comfortable
:49:19. > :49:26.lifestyle now... Can I just say, this winter fuel allowance stop and
:49:26. > :49:29.go let her finish. Young people, �200 would be an awful lot of money.
:49:29. > :49:34.To somebody with a comfortable lifestyle, it is an insignificant
:49:34. > :49:38.amount. A left the comfort you with words to say that most people who
:49:38. > :49:41.are reasonably comfortable, my friends who could claim, they don't
:49:41. > :49:49.claim. Don't be too worried about its. Doesn't it can automatically
:49:49. > :49:56.into your account? If you can opt out. Most people don't. We are
:49:56. > :50:00.joined on a webcam by somebody from the National pensioners' Convention.
:50:00. > :50:05.In a time of austerity, when benefits are being cut, how can we
:50:05. > :50:09.justify the universal ones that people like you get on bus passes
:50:09. > :50:15.on fuel allowances? Thank you for asking me to speak on this. First
:50:15. > :50:19.of all, the division is not between the old and the young, it is
:50:19. > :50:24.between the rich and poor. The National pensioners' Convention is
:50:24. > :50:28.joining with young people in a campaign called generations united.
:50:29. > :50:32.We think the fact that we bailed out the banks and we had successive
:50:32. > :50:38.governments undermining the welfare state is a reason for us to join
:50:38. > :50:42.with young people, to bring back what was fought for after the
:50:42. > :50:48.Second World War. When you talk about drawing the line, where do
:50:48. > :50:55.you draw the line on paying people, getting people a bus pass? For
:50:55. > :51:03.instance, at the moment, means tested pension credit is used as a
:51:03. > :51:09.line, people below that get concessions that those on a higher
:51:09. > :51:12.income do not receive. But does that mean that you are rich? It has
:51:12. > :51:16.been proved that the troubled past helps old people with mobility. It
:51:16. > :51:24.helps them to take part in social activity and it overcomes stress
:51:24. > :51:30.and loneliness. It actually saves the NHS a lot of money. Thank you.
:51:30. > :51:34.A hang on! If the likes of Alan Sugar and other rich people want to
:51:34. > :51:42.refuse these things on Paul Grounds, that is fine. But they can drive
:51:42. > :51:44.around in big cars anyway. Also joining us is Ian from the Social
:51:45. > :51:50.Market Foundation. A lot of people say this should not be framed as
:51:50. > :51:55.old against Young, is that right? think it is not helpful to frame it
:51:55. > :51:59.as old against young. But it is true? The Government needs to find
:51:59. > :52:02.�15 billion per year in cuts from 2015 onwards. It's almost
:52:02. > :52:06.inevitable that if we are going to keep universal benefits like the
:52:06. > :52:09.winter fuel payment for older people, we need to find a way to
:52:09. > :52:13.pay for that. It's either by taxing young people more, means testing
:52:13. > :52:17.their benefits more, as we heard with housing benefit plans for
:52:17. > :52:22.those under 25, or about means testing older people's benefits.
:52:22. > :52:26.All of your pen of -- panellists need to decide which they will do.
:52:26. > :52:30.If it's part of a social contract. You pay your taxes when you're
:52:30. > :52:33.young, when you are older you get all of this stuff. Young people
:52:33. > :52:36.know they will not get these free bus passes. There was the social
:52:36. > :52:40.contract. The reason it has broken down is not because of the greed of
:52:41. > :52:45.the elderly. We have a government that manifestly wants to cut public
:52:45. > :52:48.spending. I would say one small thing. One of the reasons why David
:52:48. > :52:56.Cameron is reluctant to cut benefits for the elderly, is
:52:56. > :53:00.nothing to do with social contract, he knows that old people vote.
:53:00. > :53:03.Exactly, it's classic. I really don't like his old against a young
:53:03. > :53:06.antics. One of the reasons young people feel they have it so tough
:53:06. > :53:12.is that their expectations are so much higher than previous
:53:12. > :53:17.generations. Young people want to do a job that they enjoy. My
:53:17. > :53:20.parents never expected that. that's not entitlement. A people
:53:20. > :53:26.did not expect to enjoy their job, they did their job because they
:53:26. > :53:29.needed to. Is that the trouble? Kids expect too much? Absolutely.
:53:29. > :53:33.Children were told to go to university, it will improve your
:53:33. > :53:38.chances. They did what they were told. That was preposterous, that
:53:38. > :53:43.everybody should go to university. Ridiculous, Tony Blair said he
:53:43. > :53:47.wanted 50% of young school-leavers to go to university. Why? What was
:53:47. > :53:52.the point of that? All I would say to young people, and I passionately
:53:52. > :53:57.believe this, if you work hard and you get qualified and you search
:53:57. > :54:02.for work and aim high, you will be successful. Never mind about older
:54:02. > :54:06.people was that really? In the current circumstances? There are
:54:06. > :54:10.jobs around, providing we take control of immigration, that we
:54:10. > :54:15.don't allow too many immigrants in, too quickly, to take jobs away, I
:54:15. > :54:21.do believe that, providing people are responsible about the number of
:54:21. > :54:27.children they produce, provided we get those factors right. If you
:54:27. > :54:31.can't afford children, you shouldn't have them. Can I just
:54:31. > :54:34.say... I have four and I hope they all do look forward to enjoying
:54:34. > :54:38.their jobs. I don't want any of them to work in things they don't
:54:38. > :54:41.want to do. I don't want them to live under the ground, there are
:54:41. > :54:47.young people, students, living underground in a flat because they
:54:47. > :54:51.cannot afford... Of a basement flat? It is not a basement flat. It
:54:52. > :54:55.was on television last week. They are under the pavement. You don't
:54:55. > :55:03.understand. There are elderly people running around in a family
:55:03. > :55:06.houses, they should be in courage to -- encouraged to sell.
:55:06. > :55:10.compulsory downsizing? So if you buy a house, you are told after a
:55:10. > :55:16.certain number of years, thank you, your children have left, you have
:55:16. > :55:21.to move? A house is more than just bricks and mortar. There is the
:55:21. > :55:26.sentimental side. Emma, she edits SAGA Magazine. Prosperous
:55:26. > :55:30.pensioners probably by your magazine. Shouldn't they be paying
:55:30. > :55:36.back the equivalent of their tuition fees, at least as a gesture,
:55:36. > :55:42.that we are all in it together? Amongst our readers, we are finding
:55:42. > :55:44.that they are not living the life of Riley, very few of them. A lot
:55:44. > :55:51.of pensioners are under a great deal of financial stress at the
:55:51. > :55:54.moment. Their annuities have suffered enormously from
:55:54. > :55:59.quantitative easing, which affects how much money they get every year
:55:59. > :56:03.when they have to buy an annuity. Plus the rate of inflation for all
:56:03. > :56:13.the people are higher for them than the general population. There are
:56:13. > :56:21.
:56:21. > :56:24.very few pensioners living the high Not all pensioners are living high
:56:24. > :56:28.on the whole, but quite a few of their are rattling around in family
:56:28. > :56:34.homes that young people could move into. It is their property, make
:56:34. > :56:44.them move out? Do thank you all very much indeed. We have your
:56:44. > :56:50.
:56:50. > :56:54.online poll votes. We asked if Anyone surprised? I'm not surprised
:56:54. > :56:57.a tall. Public opinion is moving decisively against bankers and in
:56:57. > :57:01.favour of some sort of regulation, having something done about the
:57:01. > :57:06.bonus culture. I'm not surprised. We are fed up of the Leveson
:57:06. > :57:09.Inquiry and we would rather the time, money and energy be spent on
:57:09. > :57:13.this disgrace, this banker's disgrace, forget the Leveson
:57:13. > :57:18.Inquiry. We are not interested, we are interested in the bank has
:57:18. > :57:20.scandal. The Barclays scandal has changed things? Have a Leveson
:57:20. > :57:25.Inquiry for the bankers. I still think people will feel powerless
:57:25. > :57:30.and that they will get away with it. There is a resignation and that 84%.
:57:30. > :57:34.I have to say, it is an indictment of the new Labour era that Tony
:57:34. > :57:39.Blair was so in love with bankers. If you were honest, did you buy it
:57:39. > :57:45.at the time? No, why would I buy it? This guy had nothing to do with
:57:45. > :57:50.me. In the 90s I was on the Treasury select committee and we
:57:50. > :57:55.did a major investigation into two scandals, the Barings Bank scandal
:57:55. > :57:59.and the BCCI scandal. I understood about the nature of banking. Some
:57:59. > :58:03.of my colleagues, old and better, did not understand until it was too
:58:03. > :58:07.late. A couple of comments from you. I am a pensioner and I have worked
:58:07. > :58:14.all my working life. I would happily give up my bus pass that my
:58:14. > :58:17.granddaughter could have it to get to college every day. I find it
:58:17. > :58:21.ironic that we are having to justify corporate greed and then
:58:21. > :58:28.ask for sacrifice is to be made by pensioners. What is the world
:58:28. > :58:33.coming to? Thanks to all of you who have taken part. Diane Abbott,