:00:13. > :00:17.It's thought that 20,000 people have died so far in the deepening
:00:17. > :00:20.Syrian conflict while the West looks on. Since Iraq and
:00:20. > :00:30.Afghanistan, we're much more cautious, but is it now time for us
:00:30. > :00:44.
:00:44. > :00:48.Good morning. I'm Samira Ahmed and welcome to Sunday morning Live. A
:00:48. > :00:54.diplomatic solution to the conflict in Syria looks further away than
:00:54. > :01:00.ever; following the resignation of Kofi Annan, what can the new peace
:01:00. > :01:08.envoy hope to achieve. Reports coming out of the country report
:01:08. > :01:13.almost daily massacres, but our countries and others can't agree on
:01:13. > :01:21.a course of action. Maternity leave is thought to be a woman's rights
:01:21. > :01:25.in a civilised society, but in the current economic climate is it a
:01:25. > :01:31.luxury? Some companies are being crippled by it. The cost of
:01:31. > :01:38.maternity leave is out of control. Why should an employer pay for an
:01:38. > :01:46.employee to have a baby? I'm an employer, I don't care about your
:01:46. > :01:52.baby, I care about my business. And gold medallists seem to
:01:52. > :01:59.represent the best of Britain, but can the same be said of our
:01:59. > :02:04.football? The football Morley bankrupt or are a few tarnishing
:02:04. > :02:11.the game. Welcome to my panel. Owen Jones is
:02:11. > :02:19.a author of Chavs. He's a keen cyclist, who sees himself as a bit
:02:19. > :02:29.of a Bradley Wiggins, but lacks the sideburns.
:02:29. > :02:35.
:02:35. > :02:45.Pat Nevin jir jir Kim Howells was a former minister of culture. And
:02:45. > :02:45.
:02:45. > :02:55.Katie Hopkins is a former member of Sandhurst and currently train s
:02:55. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:03.While we've preferred to focus on the Olympics, the international
:03:03. > :03:08.story this summer has been the escalating bloodshed in Syria.
:03:09. > :03:12.President Assad is still in power, 20,000 people are dead and there
:03:12. > :03:19.seems no agreement on the way forward with China and Russia
:03:19. > :03:26.vetoing every plan so far. Is it now time for us to intervene. In
:03:26. > :03:30.2011, the UK helped to enforce a no-fly zone over er Syria, but
:03:30. > :03:34.while the UK has offered support, such as medical supplies and radio
:03:34. > :03:39.to the political opposition, it remains Government policy not to
:03:39. > :03:43.send arms to the rebels. assistance does not include lethal
:03:43. > :03:48.assistance to the opposition, and we will be careful to whom we
:03:48. > :03:53.provide the practical help I have mentioned. However, with atrocities
:03:53. > :04:00.allegedly being committed on both sides, is it our moral duty to be
:04:00. > :04:05.doing more? Critics of intervention say it's not that simple and the
:04:05. > :04:09.sending in of arms or troops will only exacerbate the situation and
:04:09. > :04:12.could lead to wider war in the Middle East?
:04:12. > :04:17.But those who oppose the government's stance ask why is the
:04:17. > :04:21.world standing back and doing nothing when, in the past, it has
:04:21. > :04:26.stepped in to help those under threat. So do we have a moral duty
:04:26. > :04:32.to intervene and attempt to end the bloodshed destroying a country or
:04:32. > :04:38.should we keep out of affairs that may not concern us and do more harm
:04:38. > :04:42.than good? Katie Hopkins, would we do more harm than good if we enter
:04:42. > :04:50.veined now? I think given our notion of what is right and morally
:04:50. > :04:58.wrong, aren't we obligated to intervene?
:04:58. > :05:05.Well, if you they which should, text yes or no. You can also vote
:05:05. > :05:11.on-line or on the website. We'll show how you voted at the end
:05:11. > :05:15.of the programme. I want to ask Kim Howells first, if you were phone
:05:15. > :05:20.minister now would you feel we should be intervening? No, I don't
:05:20. > :05:24.think so. I was in favour of intervening right the at the very
:05:24. > :05:32.beginning, because I think there is a place for intervening. When
:05:32. > :05:36.should we have done it? Very, very quickly and maybe tried to make a
:05:36. > :05:40.safe zone either in Lebanon or on the Turkish border. It would have
:05:40. > :05:44.been very, very difficult. This is not Libya and not even Northern
:05:44. > :05:50.Iraq. This is a very complex situation. It would have been very,
:05:50. > :05:57.very difficult to do. So it's the com flexity of the situation now
:05:57. > :06:02.that that's made it impossible? It's in the middle of the world's
:06:02. > :06:05.most volatile region and Syria is spiralling out of control. I have a
:06:05. > :06:09.lot of time for William Hague as Foreign Secretary, but I think he
:06:09. > :06:13.can't control who our intelligence or arms would end up with in the
:06:13. > :06:23.end and the opposition is fragmented. They have given motives
:06:23. > :06:23.
:06:23. > :06:29.for doing what they're doing. Some are democrats, some are Salaphist.
:06:29. > :06:34.But that's true of many countries where we've intervened. There is
:06:34. > :06:39.surely an argument to intervene? I'm sure everyone will be watching
:06:39. > :06:47.the TV with horror. Instinctly we feel we should do something, but
:06:47. > :06:51.we're seeing an escalating sectarian war. There are other
:06:51. > :06:58.minorities who also fear the fall of the regime, like the Christians
:06:58. > :07:03.and the Jews. We are having foreign intervention at the moment from
:07:03. > :07:09.Qatar and Saudi Arabia, neither of which are democracies. And this is
:07:09. > :07:15.the problem. And partly, on the one hand, I mean, I don't -- obviously
:07:15. > :07:19.I oppose very strongly the Western intervention in Iraq, it was one of
:07:19. > :07:23.the biggest British foreign policy disasters since World War II. The
:07:23. > :07:27.idea of repeating that is utterly unthinkable. But what we're seeing
:07:27. > :07:31.at the moment and this is my fear, is that the intervention taking
:07:31. > :07:36.place at the moment from Bahrain and Saudi Arabia is being funnelled
:07:36. > :07:41.into the most radical and sectarian groups on the Sunni side and that
:07:41. > :07:47.is causing an escalation of the sectarian bloodshed that we're
:07:47. > :07:53.seeing. But this is the fear, I'm interested you're in favour of
:07:53. > :07:59.intervention given the complexities? There are so many
:07:59. > :08:05.complexities, and opinions but we can't sit back on our sofas and say,
:08:05. > :08:09."This is my opinion." But do you think it would be worse if we went
:08:09. > :08:14.in? What could be worse than people shot on the streets and seeing
:08:14. > :08:18.children being maimed. I don't think we have a right in the a
:08:18. > :08:24.democratic society to say we cannot intervene. Go ahead? There is a
:08:24. > :08:28.wider question, of course, which is that the international
:08:28. > :08:32.organisations we have at the moment that try to stop governments
:08:33. > :08:38.murdering their own people are completely ineffective, and that
:08:38. > :08:42.goes for the UN, the Arab League is useless. And the African league is
:08:42. > :08:47.useless. And in the Former Yugoslavia, look at that situation,
:08:47. > :08:50.do you allow a brutal government to murder its own citizens and not do
:08:50. > :08:56.anything or do you try and figure out some way of intervening so as
:08:56. > :09:02.to try and lessen the brutality of what's going on in there. For me it
:09:02. > :09:09.has to be the latter. But just to reflect what you're saying, we
:09:09. > :09:16.could all say it's easier to be an armchair bomber than allow bombs to
:09:16. > :09:24.rain down on another country. But in Iraq things did get a lot worse
:09:24. > :09:29.because of the intervention. The situation got worse and there were
:09:29. > :09:34.divisions between Sunni and Shia, and other groups came in. But to
:09:34. > :09:40.flip that over, you are saying that Saddam should have been allowed to
:09:40. > :09:46.stay there? He was a brutal murderer, and some people supported
:09:46. > :09:56.him, you and your allies. That's outrageous, I don't like dictators.
:09:56. > :10:00.Your former leader, Tony Blair, who is now advising the Kazakhy standy
:10:00. > :10:06.dictatorship for millions of dollars every year, I want
:10:06. > :10:09.democracy, which equally applies to all and that comes from those
:10:09. > :10:13.struggling below. And that's what we saw in the Arab Spring. It came
:10:13. > :10:19.from people fighting themselves against dictators. But sheerly we
:10:19. > :10:23.have a right to try and make democracy rule and we have a right
:10:23. > :10:27.to intervene to help people who couldn't understand why we're
:10:27. > :10:33.letting them suffer? Surely we have a right with our forces and troops
:10:33. > :10:40.and our justice of what is right and wrong, surely there is a moral
:10:40. > :10:48.decency to do that? That is a very naive view of the way Western power
:10:48. > :10:55.operates. Western power backed several dictatorships, we've just
:10:55. > :11:02.had a Saudi invasion last year, which the West failed to condemn.
:11:02. > :11:07.So what are we supposed to do about it? Are we so bound by our own
:11:07. > :11:13.history that we can't change, and you say Iraq was a disaster, but I
:11:13. > :11:18.disagree with you. Are you telling me that the people being murdered
:11:18. > :11:23.in Srebrenica, because of the influence of the UN shouldn't
:11:23. > :11:29.somehow have been rescued from the Serb Serb terrorists and the Muslim
:11:29. > :11:33.terrorists. This is another example. You did have unfortunate foreign
:11:33. > :11:37.intervention because the French backed and armed the regime.
:11:37. > :11:40.Srebrenica is an example, wasn't there a case for moral
:11:40. > :11:44.intervention? I think internationally co-ordinated action.
:11:44. > :11:48.What does that mean? I'll tell you. It means that British and American
:11:48. > :11:54.troops are put in the way of danger, because no-one else will put their
:11:54. > :11:58.troops in danger. That's not true. Kofi Annan suggested a Government
:11:58. > :12:03.of national unit to bring those together and have a timetable for
:12:04. > :12:10.eelections. Unfortunately that was blown out of the water by the West
:12:10. > :12:14.position. I want to cam back to Syria, because we have people with
:12:14. > :12:18.Syrian perspectives. I'm calling Abdul from the group, British
:12:18. > :12:24.solidarity for Syria. Abdul, one of the problems in this situation is
:12:24. > :12:29.we know there are atrocities being carried out by rebels as well, not
:12:29. > :12:32.just the Assad government is arming them really going to be a solution?
:12:32. > :12:36.We must not get things out of proportion. Even the report from
:12:36. > :12:41.the UN is clear saying the vast majority of the violence is being
:12:41. > :12:47.conducted by this dictatorial regime. To simply state that the
:12:47. > :12:51.rebels are committing crimes, that is a fact, but the most well-
:12:51. > :12:58.trained and professional armies in the world commit crimes, we've seen
:12:59. > :13:05.the Americans commit crimes in the Iraq and Pakistan. The entire
:13:05. > :13:09.revolution is made up of people who are no better than Assad, you can't
:13:09. > :13:15.say that. It's a situation where we have a warlord killing his own
:13:15. > :13:19.people. In the last month alone 5,000 people have been killed.
:13:19. > :13:24.Major Jean Tim cross joins us now and he served in Kosovo and Iraq,
:13:24. > :13:29.all the places we've been discussing. From your experience do
:13:29. > :13:32.you think military intervention in Syria could be made to work and
:13:32. > :13:37.how? This is not an easy question and my view at the moment is it
:13:37. > :13:42.would be very, very difficult. And you've mentioned the various
:13:42. > :13:46.conflicts I've been involved with. I come at this from two
:13:46. > :13:49.perspectives, one as a Christian and the other is the just war
:13:49. > :13:55.principles. And I think it is important to
:13:55. > :13:58.stress they are principles, they are not requirements. All of those
:13:58. > :14:02.just war principles and the responsibility to protect talk
:14:02. > :14:07.about things like what author would we have to intervene and would this
:14:07. > :14:10.place be better as a result of the intervening. There's no doubt we're
:14:11. > :14:17.not going to get any UN authority on this, because the Russians and
:14:17. > :14:23.the Chinese are not going to agree. Would no-fly zones make a
:14:23. > :14:30.difference or would it be humanitarian intervention that
:14:30. > :14:36.would make a difference? One has to look at the reality. Putting a no-
:14:36. > :14:42.fly zone into Syria would be different to Libya. Why? Syria has
:14:42. > :14:46.an extremely effective military who are, sadly still loyal to the Assad
:14:46. > :14:51.regime. So trying to establish a no-fly zone would be difficult.
:14:51. > :14:56.It's a much bigger place than Libya. The Libyan air defences were along
:14:56. > :14:59.the coast. That's not the case in Syria. So it would be extremely
:14:59. > :15:05.difficult but, and it is an important but, my line is that we
:15:05. > :15:08.do need to be thinking about how we can provide thought leadership and
:15:08. > :15:14.international organisations and how we can begin to think through some
:15:14. > :15:20.sort of ability to help, particularly on the humanitarian
:15:20. > :15:24.front. But it is not going to be easy. Syria is big, it's a hugely
:15:24. > :15:29.important part of the Arab Spring which follows from September 11th
:15:29. > :15:33.and the economic crisis, but it matters because of Iran and the
:15:33. > :15:36.knock-on effect into Lebanon. And I endorse Kim Howells point of view,
:15:36. > :15:42.I think the Foreign Secretary is doing a very good job of this,
:15:42. > :15:48.trying to strike a well-balanced line here but we need to think this
:15:48. > :15:56.through and try and intervene in some sense. Thank you. Is
:15:56. > :16:00.Afghanistan an interesting comparison. There, Western military
:16:00. > :16:04.intervention has done a huge amount for people's lives, particularly
:16:04. > :16:09.women and children. Isn't there a case we could see our intervention
:16:09. > :16:14.in the same moral way? Most people in Britain want people returned
:16:14. > :16:20.from Afghanistan. That is a conflict which has gone on for well
:16:20. > :16:25.over ten years and we all hear the tragic roll call of British
:16:25. > :16:29.servicemen dying each week. And we see a corrupt regime under Hamid
:16:29. > :16:33.Karzai, who didn't actually win the elections and there's huge
:16:33. > :16:37.allegations of rigging. I don't want to go into the details, I want
:16:37. > :16:45.to bring in another contributor before more comments from you. And
:16:46. > :16:53.that is the Reverend Assar, a Syrian Anglican priest in this
:16:53. > :16:59.country. What is your concern about how safe the Syrians were if the
:16:59. > :17:05.rebel side were to win? If the military intervention happens then
:17:05. > :17:12.nobody is safe, definitely nobody is safe. And the amount of violence
:17:12. > :17:16.would escalate beyond imagination. I think I disagree totally how Mr
:17:16. > :17:20.Hague and Mr Cameron dealt with Syria. I think they dealt
:17:20. > :17:30.appallingly, because it is not about the question of stretching
:17:30. > :17:36.our muscles in the UK and milt ry, why can't -- hilt tarly, why can't
:17:36. > :17:41.we stretch our muscles here in the mind. As a Syrian and as a priest,
:17:41. > :17:46.no-one has suggested, for example, an international conference to
:17:46. > :17:53.bring all the Syrians together to talk about the situation. All what
:17:53. > :17:59.we talk about is we talk about whether we enter vein militarily or
:17:59. > :18:03.not. Thank you. That's a very good point? There have been lots of
:18:03. > :18:09.international discussions about what to do in Syria. It's not true
:18:09. > :18:13.to say there have been no attempts on diplomacy. Kofi Annan tried to
:18:13. > :18:20.organise something and it didn't work and it's not going to work
:18:20. > :18:24.because this is a huge interniceine conflict in Syria. Have you been
:18:24. > :18:29.convinced now by what you've heard? Not at all. And the diplomatic
:18:29. > :18:34.solution, we did try and it did not work. And I think if we're just
:18:34. > :18:39.prepared to watch we're nothing better than voyeurs, nothing better
:18:39. > :18:46.than the people who slow down on a motorway to watch a crash. We don't
:18:46. > :18:51.get our guns out in a car crash, though. Contributions from viewers.
:18:51. > :18:56.The forces have been cut while still involved in Afghanistan, who
:18:56. > :19:02.are you going to send? Another I don't think anyone should be arming
:19:03. > :19:07.terrorists or rebels, as it will come back to bite us. And another,
:19:07. > :19:17."They should be protecting this country, not acting as world police.
:19:17. > :19:29.
:19:29. > :19:35.You have around 20 minutes before the poll closes. Thanks to everyone
:19:35. > :19:40.for taking part in that discussion. Now, women have fought long and
:19:40. > :19:45.hard for maternity pay but as welfare payments and even child
:19:46. > :19:55.benefit in particular have been cut, is it time for a rethink. Currently
:19:56. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :20:01.a mother can claim six weeks at 90 persist -- persist pay. Katie
:20:01. > :20:06.Hopkins says it's ridiculous that employers should have to pay for
:20:06. > :20:10.their employees to have children. The cost of maternity leave is out
:20:10. > :20:15.of control. Why should employers fund their employees' decisions to
:20:15. > :20:19.have children. I'm an employer and I don't care about your baby, I
:20:19. > :20:24.care about my business. With a pregnant employee in my business
:20:24. > :20:28.the costs are substantial and entirely biased around the needs of
:20:28. > :20:32.the employee. My businesses is expected to pay for her maternity
:20:32. > :20:37.leave, to pay to recruit a temporary hire while she has gone
:20:37. > :20:44.and also to hold her job open should she wish to return. And
:20:44. > :20:50.despite offering all of these kourtd sees I cannot ask when she
:20:50. > :20:57.plans to leave, how long she is gone for or when she plans to come
:20:57. > :21:04.back, if at all. And in the run-up to her leave I'm expected to fund
:21:04. > :21:09.digsial absences through sickness or related appointments. I'm not
:21:09. > :21:14.happy. When I was pregnant I did not attend antenatal appointments.
:21:14. > :21:21.I did not have to practice my breathing and I missed a few scans.
:21:21. > :21:26.I was working in the States at the time. We had eight weeks unpaid
:21:26. > :21:29.leave and no special treatments. Here in the UK I get all of the
:21:29. > :21:32.onerous responsibilities as an employer. So it's time to stand up
:21:32. > :21:41.for the rights of employers and stop paying women for the choices
:21:41. > :21:46.they've made. Setting aside the moral dilemma of
:21:46. > :21:54.whether Katie should have been missing scans, if you have a webcam
:21:54. > :21:57.you can make your pint on Skype or connect us in the many other ways.
:21:57. > :22:02.It's not politically correct but you hear a lot of concern
:22:02. > :22:10.particularly from small businesses that they can't ask questions of
:22:10. > :22:18.the woman and it's a huge financial burden. First of all, there are two
:22:18. > :22:25.men on this panel and one of the only women in Britain who has had
:22:25. > :22:31.stance. There are only four countries in the world that don't
:22:32. > :22:35.have paid maternity leave and what is shown there is there is a huge
:22:35. > :22:41.cost borne by business if you don't have it, because people don't
:22:41. > :22:46.return to their jobs and you have to pay for recruitment. But this is
:22:46. > :22:50.about our society is it just based on prurly boft or the needs of
:22:50. > :22:53.working people and their families? And this would penalise women for
:22:53. > :23:00.having a child at a particular point. There are huge benefits for
:23:00. > :23:05.women taking time off, in terms of prenatal and post natal care.
:23:05. > :23:09.Breast-feeding, the World Health Organisation recommends six months.
:23:09. > :23:14.But businesses have to pay for all this? Why is it my responsibility
:23:14. > :23:18.that it is better for breast- feeding if they take time off. That
:23:18. > :23:23.is not my problem. I was in the States when I had my first child. I
:23:23. > :23:27.had eight weeks off and I didn't take it all. If you choose to have
:23:27. > :23:31.a baby it's your choice as an individual, it's not my
:23:31. > :23:37.responsibility as your employer. I'm not responsible, I didn't
:23:37. > :23:44.decide for you to have a baby, you did. But businesses are not being
:23:44. > :23:49.hammered by ma ternt believe. a small business. Don't talk over
:23:49. > :23:54.me. The problem with small businesses isn't having to pay
:23:54. > :23:58.maternity leave, it's not being lent to properably by the banks and
:23:58. > :24:03.it's having to respond to the economy. We all depend on a new
:24:03. > :24:08.generation and all depend on people having children. There is already a
:24:08. > :24:13.low birth rate. If women aren't able to be supported whilst they
:24:14. > :24:20.have children we'll either have a low birth rate or women will drop
:24:20. > :24:24.out of employment altogether. Katie respond to that? From a small
:24:24. > :24:30.business perspective and I run one, so clearly I have a valid opinion,
:24:30. > :24:33.the two things that matter to us is cash flow, that's king and being
:24:33. > :24:37.able to generate cash flow through the business and the second thing
:24:37. > :24:41.is forecasting your business. Clearly, if you have employees
:24:41. > :24:49.going to leave on maternity leave, and you don't know if they're going
:24:49. > :24:54.to come back or if at all and how long you get a temporary employer
:24:54. > :24:59.in. But you can claim the money back in arrears. You get the money
:24:59. > :25:02.back for the individual who has left, but you don't get money back
:25:02. > :25:07.to recruit somebody to stand in their place, and who wants to take
:25:07. > :25:11.a temporary position, not many people so that's difficult. A lot
:25:11. > :25:16.of this legislation was developed under your Government for good
:25:16. > :25:21.reasons, but you took it too far, Katie is trying to say and it is
:25:21. > :25:26.having a huge cost on small businesses? We didn't think about
:25:26. > :25:30.the impending economic crisis. And by the way, I agree very much with
:25:30. > :25:36.what Owen is saying about women having this incredibly important
:25:36. > :25:41.role, the central role in society, of bringing up young children, but
:25:41. > :25:46.if your economy is going bankrupt how do you pay for a welfare state,
:25:46. > :25:51.not just for maternity leave but for lots of things. Is this a case
:25:51. > :25:55.for rolling it back somewhat? not sure about rolling it back, but
:25:55. > :26:00.you could modify things by saying if, for example, a small business,
:26:00. > :26:03.like Katie runs, is finding it extremely difficult you have to
:26:03. > :26:10.find some way of either compensating them for maternity
:26:10. > :26:15.leave and pay, which I'm in favour of, or else you face an abyss,
:26:15. > :26:18.which is you don't pay women to have children, basically. Women
:26:18. > :26:23.either don't go into employment, which would be a terrible thing or
:26:23. > :26:28.else the birth rate declines even further. I want to bring in some
:26:28. > :26:33.contributors. Kate Kingston who is an entrepreneur and has a small
:26:33. > :26:36.business. You are exactly the sort of person who is struggling with
:26:36. > :26:41.maternity and it's crippling businesses like yours, is that your
:26:41. > :26:48.experience? Not at all. It doesn't cripple our business. We support
:26:48. > :26:52.our staff having a life-work balance. In the main we are
:26:53. > :26:57.supportive of maternity and paternity rights and we're given at
:26:57. > :27:01.least six months' notice to prepare both the company and the employee
:27:01. > :27:08.for any changes that this effects. In addition, we are given help by
:27:08. > :27:18.the Government by being able to recover our costs through HMRC.
:27:18. > :27:20.
:27:20. > :27:26.want to get an American perspective as well. Christine Brown-Quinn is
:27:26. > :27:30.the female capitalist, that's her blog. In America you get a lot less
:27:30. > :27:34.maternity leave and it is unpaid. Is that a benefit for women in the
:27:34. > :27:39.workplace? Well, the first thing I would say is that maternity leave
:27:39. > :27:43.is both a personal and a business issue. In terms of a personal issue
:27:43. > :27:48.you can't really legislate that. For each individual woman they may
:27:48. > :27:54.want, you know, three months off, they may want six months off. They
:27:54. > :28:00.may want a year or two off. We cannot possibly do one size fits
:28:00. > :28:03.all, "This is right for mothers, they should take this time off"
:28:03. > :28:06.that's impossible. That's the personal piece. The business piece,
:28:06. > :28:12.on the other hand is really about openership of the individual and
:28:12. > :28:15.the piece that works in the US is that the individual takes
:28:15. > :28:20.responsibility for exiting the business and reentering the
:28:20. > :28:26.business. And what I find, having lived in the UK for over 20 years
:28:26. > :28:31.and having had leave in the US, in the UK twice, but in the UK, now
:28:31. > :28:37.with this year maternity leave it's incredibly difficult to reenter
:28:37. > :28:45.into a business, a year, particularly for a small spwis a
:28:45. > :28:49.lifetime. And my business -- business is a lifetime. In my
:28:49. > :28:55.business we help women programme in their careers and a year out is too
:28:55. > :28:59.long. What would be the right length, do you think? I think for
:28:59. > :29:03.businesses again, appreciating the context in the UK and not as an
:29:03. > :29:08.American, or as a dual citizen I wouldn't say the US model is right
:29:08. > :29:12.for the UK. The UK has its own culture and history, et cetera. I
:29:12. > :29:20.think that the six months, also having been a manager in a larger
:29:20. > :29:25.organisation, with people going on leave, six months of manageable. A
:29:25. > :29:30.year -- - a year is extremely difficult. I met a very senior
:29:30. > :29:34.woman executive in America who said because you have to make a tough
:29:34. > :29:40.choice and go back after eight weeks it is a tough choice and
:29:40. > :29:44.there are a lot more women at the top. Here, women have it both ways
:29:44. > :29:49.and people without children don't and they resent that? No, studies
:29:49. > :29:54.in America show that women are far more likely to drop out of work
:29:54. > :30:00.because they're forced to make a choice between career or a child.
:30:00. > :30:06.And when they re-enter the market they are lower skilled so the cost
:30:06. > :30:11.of training them up is wasted. Because women are forced back to
:30:11. > :30:17.work, there are breast pumping areas where they go with a photo of
:30:17. > :30:23.their child, which they may not even see...It's Fine for middle-
:30:23. > :30:29.class women who can hire a nanny, which you did, it's fine and why
:30:29. > :30:36.should people not be allowed to work if they can't afford to have a
:30:37. > :30:41.nanny? It is a choice. Am I going to work or have my children? In the
:30:41. > :30:45.States a lot of women were at board level because they stayed in the
:30:45. > :30:49.game compete being their male counterparts and they didn't take
:30:49. > :30:54.massive periods of time out when you get excluded from being able to
:30:54. > :30:58.rise to the top. It actually favours women in the long run. And
:30:58. > :31:03.I think from an employment perspective if we were more open
:31:03. > :31:07.about maternity, what was involved, when are you going to go and come
:31:07. > :31:13.back, people would be more willing to hire them. I'm going to talk
:31:13. > :31:17.about that. Steve is a former civil servant and resigned from the Home
:31:17. > :31:21.Office in a row over border staffing. The Home Office is a big
:31:21. > :31:25.public sector employer and employs a lot of women, as a former
:31:25. > :31:28.executive there, what was your feeling with maternity leave? Was
:31:28. > :31:35.it something that affected how people regarded women and should
:31:35. > :31:41.it? I think you've got some crossed wires here. I was brought on as the
:31:41. > :31:46.author of a book The Woman Racket. Which is directly relevant to our
:31:46. > :31:49.discussion, but crucially you have worked in the protector where a lot
:31:49. > :31:53.of maternity leave is claimed. Is it of concern for you and why?
:31:53. > :32:00.There are two problems. First of all, the employer has to leave the
:32:00. > :32:04.job open for a full year and research shows only 10% to 15% of
:32:04. > :32:08.women are like men in their attitude to work and there is
:32:08. > :32:15.comprehensive research on this, and the chances are that the woman is
:32:15. > :32:20.not going to come back full-time and unlikely to be part time.
:32:20. > :32:24.Unlike other benefits, SMP is not means tested, so a woman can take
:32:24. > :32:30.any old job shortly before she becomes pregnant in the knowledge
:32:30. > :32:36.that she can have a full year...Do You think women are doing it in
:32:36. > :32:42.this calculated way? Some people will always respond to perverse
:32:42. > :32:47.incentives, and there are always examples of that. I want to get a
:32:47. > :32:51.response? Very briefly, I think this exactly encapsulates the
:32:52. > :32:54.problem with maternity pay. It gives people those types of
:32:54. > :32:59.thoughts. Women are into skulduggery, and trying too trick
:32:59. > :33:05.and con. And if we were clearer and made it a better system it would be
:33:05. > :33:11.fairer for all of them and people wouldn't be thinking like this
:33:11. > :33:15.about women. You think it compares with immigration in our way over
:33:15. > :33:19.maternity leave. Is it open for misclaiming? We should be talking
:33:19. > :33:23.about it in a wider context in terms of are we able to continue
:33:23. > :33:28.paying it in Do you think there is a mood where the government is
:33:28. > :33:33.feeding an attitude of too many immigrants and too many welfare
:33:33. > :33:37.claimants? Is that a problem? will always be a temptation for
:33:37. > :33:41.government to try and play cards that it thinks are populist. But
:33:41. > :33:44.the problem is we're living in very, very difficult times at the moment
:33:44. > :33:50.and the assumptions I grew up with, about the benefits of the welfare
:33:50. > :33:55.state and they are undoubted in my view, by the way, we aren't going
:33:55. > :34:00.to continue with those. That's nonsense. One of the few welcome
:34:00. > :34:04.things this Government is doing, which you won't hear me say very
:34:04. > :34:10.often is introducing paternity leave, so men can share the burden
:34:10. > :34:15.of raising the children and I think that's an important step forward.
:34:15. > :34:21.wish we could talk about the Scandinavian style with high taxes
:34:22. > :34:26.and funding, but that's nor another programme. One slaughter, "There is
:34:26. > :34:31.a need for children, they will pay our pensions in the future. And
:34:31. > :34:36.another says, "All businesses are affected, not just small businesses,
:34:36. > :34:44.it's a level playing field and another says, "A reasonable short
:34:44. > :34:53.time off is OK, but not an endless payment. Do you still have that
:34:53. > :34:58.warm glow from watching Mo Farah or Jessica Ennis winning gold? But how
:34:58. > :35:07.do the footballers compare? Is football morally bankrupt? You can
:35:07. > :35:17.join in the discussion: Keep voting too in our poll:
:35:17. > :35:21.
:35:21. > :35:27.The question is should we intervene You have fine mivs before the poll
:35:27. > :35:31.closes. -- minutes before the poll closes.
:35:31. > :35:36.It is time for our moral moment of the week, where you choose your
:35:36. > :35:43.stories. I think, Owen, you were going to start with the strange
:35:43. > :35:49.story of Julian Assange? Yes, this is a tough one. This is after the
:35:49. > :35:59.granting of asylum by Ecuador andess a he now holed up in the
:35:59. > :36:03.embassy. I was speak I am speaking as a supporter of WikiLeaks, it's
:36:03. > :36:06.helped to hold some people in the world to account. But this is a
:36:06. > :36:12.separate issue. There are some very serious allegations of rape against
:36:12. > :36:17.him in Sweden. There have been a lot of myths which have circled
:36:17. > :36:23.around, it wouldn't constitute rape in this country, not true, two
:36:23. > :36:29.courts have ruled that it would constitute rape. And there are some
:36:29. > :36:34.who argue that people are trying to crush WikiLeaks, but this is
:36:34. > :36:40.entirely separate and he must go to Sweden and face these allegations.
:36:40. > :36:45.A lot of people are saying this is about America and not a criminal
:36:45. > :36:51.rape case. Absolutely and I'm going to agree with Owen. We need to get
:36:51. > :36:59.this guy out of our country. I think Ecuador is completely wrong
:36:59. > :37:04.to harbourim, and it's all at the taxpayers expense. Ecuadorian tax
:37:04. > :37:07.payments. But he's not wanted here. The discussion of the threat to
:37:07. > :37:11.intervene by William Hague, has that surprised you or is it quite
:37:11. > :37:17.right, Sweden and Britain are angry about this? I'm not surprised
:37:17. > :37:22.they're angry. The guy, I think he's a coward and manipulative,
:37:22. > :37:25.he's handled the media brilliantly. He has a lot of middle-class
:37:25. > :37:30.supporters. None of them are talking about those two women who
:37:30. > :37:37.brought charges in Sweden. I think it's a disgrace. And by the way,
:37:37. > :37:47.Ecuador, along with a lot of other South American states has a long
:37:47. > :37:50.
:37:50. > :37:57.history of inviting Nazis after the war, gangsters, and Argentina,
:37:57. > :38:04.Brazil Uruguay. You're too young. Don't patronise me. I'm not
:38:04. > :38:12.patronising, get your history right. Another one, Katie, you chose the
:38:12. > :38:17.conviction of Pussy Riot, -- Kim you chose Pussy Riot, the story of
:38:17. > :38:22.the girl band in Russia. concerned not because of the rock
:38:22. > :38:27.band or what happened, but it seems to me the tendancies that we assume
:38:27. > :38:33.happen when you have a working democracy are not transparent in
:38:33. > :38:36.Russia now and I think it's getting worse. I think it's becoming more
:38:36. > :38:41.repressive and the state is less tolerant and it really grieves me
:38:41. > :38:47.to see it. I'm not saying there wouldn't have ban tremendous row if
:38:47. > :38:53.this had happened in Canterbury Cathedral or St Pauls. I was
:38:53. > :38:59.thinking of the young man who got jailed for desecrating the Cenotaph
:38:59. > :39:08.a few years ago, it is interesting that they were sentenced for
:39:08. > :39:12.hooliganism and blasphemy? Which says a lot about the regime. That's
:39:12. > :39:16.right. They were harking back to medieval court rulings. Do you
:39:16. > :39:25.think a lot of people are complaining about the punk band,
:39:25. > :39:32.but will it tip for them or against them? There is tipping favour
:39:32. > :39:35.against Putin. He came in with a centralise regime and traded off
:39:35. > :39:39.human rights for rising living standards but I think he's starting
:39:39. > :39:43.not to get away with that, particularly in the last elections
:39:43. > :39:48.with the huge protests against alleged wide-spread rigging in
:39:48. > :39:54.those elections, so I think this could cement increasing opposition
:39:54. > :39:59.in Russia. Are you optimistic? I'm not optimistic. I'm afraid I
:39:59. > :40:04.think there are tends sis within the Russian ruling class, and
:40:04. > :40:09.believe me there is one to become more authoritarian than less so.
:40:09. > :40:15.And Katie, this is lighter. Yes, within the marriage unit a man, I'm
:40:15. > :40:20.going to gesture to you, Kim, but I'm not entirely pointing at you, a
:40:20. > :40:27.man will drink less if he's married whereas a woman will start to drink
:40:27. > :40:33.more if she is married but I don't buy into the notion of men giving
:40:33. > :40:40.permission to women to drink, I think it's that they drive women to
:40:40. > :40:47.drink! Do you drive women to drink? I think it's a complete nonsense.
:40:47. > :40:53.If women want to drink they drink because they want to drink. Men can
:40:53. > :40:58.drive women to drink. That's what I'm saying. And there are women who
:40:58. > :41:03.can drive men to drink, believe me. That's a very intense look. The
:41:03. > :41:06.poll is closing now, so please do not text as your vote won't count
:41:06. > :41:13.and you may still be charged. We'll bring you the results at the end of
:41:13. > :41:17.the show. Now, the Premiership kicked off
:41:17. > :41:22.yesterday, if you haven't noticed and after the great Olympic
:41:22. > :41:29.festival is it a case of the hangover after the party? World-
:41:29. > :41:33.wide praise and a record haul of 29 gold medals, leave most people
:41:33. > :41:38.thinking the Olympics has been a huge success and made the country
:41:38. > :41:42.proud. But can the same be said of football? The setting up of the
:41:42. > :41:49.Premier League 20 years put big money at the heart of the game and
:41:49. > :41:54.now even the bosses agree it has an image problem. I'm not making
:41:54. > :42:01.comparisons, I'm saying clearly we are in greater focus and there is a
:42:01. > :42:08.stark contrast being made and that has to be dealt with. Some Olympic
:42:08. > :42:13.athletes earn very little, often training with day jobs, but some
:42:13. > :42:19.footballers earn �200,000 a week. Many say footballers earn far too
:42:19. > :42:22.much and these spoilt young men behave terribly badly, often, with
:42:22. > :42:27.sexual scandals and law breaking making the front pages as much as
:42:27. > :42:31.the results on the back ones. Football fans too have been
:42:31. > :42:35.criticised for their aggressive behaviour, a direct contrast to the
:42:35. > :42:39.positive, celebratory atmosphere at the Olympics. But football
:42:39. > :42:42.supporters argue that while Olympians are under huge pressure
:42:42. > :42:46.it's once every four years and nobody cares what athletes get up
:42:46. > :42:50.to in their private lives. Footballers, on the other hand,
:42:50. > :42:55.must perform week in, week out for months under the glare of the media
:42:55. > :42:59.both on and off the pitch. Is it any wonder some crack under the
:42:59. > :43:08.pressure and the Olympics was not without problems, sponsorship
:43:08. > :43:17.issues, dirtry dirty tricks in some case and drug results have taken
:43:17. > :43:22.away some of the shine. So, should football take a leaf out of the
:43:22. > :43:28.Olympics page, or are they too different to compare?
:43:28. > :43:37.You can join in my webcam and make your point by phone, text or on-
:43:37. > :43:44.line. And we're joined by Pat Nevin, a re found in football pundit now,
:43:44. > :43:49.but you're no stranger to spinning a few discs. And I've had some
:43:49. > :43:54.Twitters that people have seen you at festivals? Yes, I've done some.
:43:54. > :43:59.Excellent. We're bringing you on today as a pundit. Stories like the
:43:59. > :44:06.John Terry row over the summer, compared to the joy of the Olympics
:44:06. > :44:13.it does seem that football needs to clean up their act? Yes, I think
:44:13. > :44:17.you've made the point, to compare them is a grotesque
:44:17. > :44:21.generallyisation. In football, you tend to see, yes,
:44:21. > :44:25.John Terry and the problems throughout the season, but I've
:44:25. > :44:31.worked with these guys for 20 years and there's plenty of good guys in
:44:31. > :44:40.there as well. And compare that to the Olympics, yes, it's lovely to
:44:40. > :44:48.see Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis, but behind them there are some similar
:44:48. > :44:57.stories. There was a drug problem, Tweets, and a man on drugs. They're
:44:57. > :45:00.all Olympic stories. And Usain Bolt, he was pictured with three
:45:00. > :45:05.beautiful blond handball players between his two events. Do you
:45:05. > :45:09.think there are people looking to make trouble? There is certainly a
:45:09. > :45:13.case that in the media it is portrayed in a certain way. And
:45:13. > :45:20.another point made in the introduction is that the Olympians
:45:20. > :45:30.are not under that pressure all the time, but the footballers are. Did
:45:30. > :45:31.
:45:31. > :45:35.you see Victoria Pendleton after her medal? Pure relief. And Chris
:45:35. > :45:42.Hoy said to her, "Don't worry, it's all over now" and that's not the
:45:42. > :45:48.pressure of a medal, it's the pressure of the media. And Owen, it
:45:48. > :45:52.there an element of we're picking on these few people from often
:45:52. > :45:58.humble backgrounds who earn big money and they live a big lifestyle
:45:58. > :46:02.under the pressure? There is often that class element. There are the
:46:02. > :46:08.stories that when people get big money they spend it in a tacky way.
:46:08. > :46:13.And we've seen it with football fans, particularly in the past. The
:46:13. > :46:19.lowest point was Hillsborough. There's also the idea of a small
:46:19. > :46:27.minority of football fans tarring all people. Terry Venables in the
:46:27. > :46:31.early 90s said he didn't want to do down his own background, but the
:46:31. > :46:38.rising prices of the stadium tickets would kick out the people
:46:38. > :46:43.causing trouble. That's nfrtsate. And prices have risen since 1990 by
:46:43. > :46:47.600%. That's interesting. New Labour were at the forefront of
:46:47. > :46:52.politicians jumping on the football bandwagon and it became a big
:46:52. > :46:56.business. The Premier League has put millions into certain clubs, do
:46:56. > :47:01.you think it's big business that has corrupted football? No, I think
:47:01. > :47:05.all sport has had corruption in it. You really don't think it has
:47:05. > :47:10.changed because of the Premier League? No, it's changed enormously.
:47:10. > :47:15.It's one of the biggest businesses in Britain. Now, is that wrong or
:47:15. > :47:21.right? When Owen wrote his book about the demonisation of working-
:47:21. > :47:26.class fans it was a reminder that we need it. This is a hugely
:47:26. > :47:33.popular form of entertainment and these are very fit young men and
:47:33. > :47:37.women who play it. I want to bring in a webcam viewer. And you've
:47:37. > :47:42.worked with a number of Premiership teams. What do you think of this
:47:42. > :47:48.argument that football is morally corrupt? Well, I've got to say
:47:48. > :47:52.immediately I'm most impressed by your comments already but the
:47:52. > :47:57.Olympics - the whole Olympic Games is just a form of entertainment
:47:57. > :48:02.based on sport and football is not really sport it's a way of life for
:48:03. > :48:08.people. It's two entirely different things and this way of life, we
:48:09. > :48:12.tend to judge people here because they're wealthy and in high profile,
:48:12. > :48:18.but John Terry was mentioned there. The man is where he is because he's
:48:18. > :48:21.very good at what he does. Football players don't just celebrate
:48:21. > :48:28.because they were selected to represent the team, that's when the
:48:28. > :48:32.work begins. And they have to do it twice a week. But what about those
:48:32. > :48:39.terrible rape scandals? Really serious involvement in abusing
:48:39. > :48:45.people? Let me say immediately that I don't think that all football
:48:45. > :48:49.players are totally innocent of everything. I think they're like
:48:49. > :48:53.society, this is a people's game. It's about people. Wherever you
:48:53. > :48:58.have a group of people I am positive you will find good and bad
:48:58. > :49:02.amongst them. The only differences is these guys are in high profile.
:49:02. > :49:06.And you take Big Brother, for instance, and reality television
:49:06. > :49:10.shows where they take ordinary people and put them under a
:49:10. > :49:15.spotlight 24 hours every day. That's a good point. I want to
:49:15. > :49:20.bring in another football view which is that Keith Hammond is from
:49:20. > :49:25.an organisation called Christian in Football and represents players in
:49:25. > :49:28.the non-league games. What, for you is the problem with football now
:49:28. > :49:31.we've had discussions about corruption and morals? Well,
:49:31. > :49:37.firstly I'd like to say it is dangerous to compare between
:49:37. > :49:42.Olympians and football. It is right to say that in any walk of life, in
:49:42. > :49:45.Olympics and football there are good and bad and good and bad
:49:45. > :49:49.attitudes. So the first thing I think is important to say it's
:49:49. > :49:53.dangerous to talk about it like this, but I think the Olympic
:49:53. > :49:59.spirit did show a different way of doing things. Is it about the
:49:59. > :50:05.winning? I was interested in Alan Pardew saying yesterday what he did.
:50:05. > :50:10.He got involved in a difficult system. This is the man in
:50:10. > :50:14.Newcastle? Manager of Newcastle but he came out publicly and said he
:50:14. > :50:19.was wrong and he was talking about the Olympic spirit and how it is
:50:19. > :50:23.good for us to copy that in football and it would be good and
:50:23. > :50:29.for him he struggled morally, but he's going to work on that and do
:50:29. > :50:33.something different. So there is an issue in that, this winning at all
:50:33. > :50:40.costs and it doesn't matter how, there is less of a playing spirit,
:50:40. > :50:45.is that what you're saying? That's what I'm saying. From a Christian
:50:45. > :50:51.point of view we want to play it's not about winning at all costs. But
:50:51. > :50:56.the trouble with the top clubs with all the money involved that causes
:50:56. > :51:01.extra pressure, huge pressure. But at our level - look football at any
:51:01. > :51:06.level, people want to go and win, don't they. But it can cause moral
:51:07. > :51:14.problems when you cheat and want to do something different. Christians
:51:14. > :51:21.in football we say, "Do not cheat." It's a great sports. That's lovely,
:51:21. > :51:28.but I've even seen kids at my son's school diving. You can't say there
:51:28. > :51:33.isn't a problem with the game 20l compared to 20 or 30 years ago?
:51:33. > :51:39.was talking to somebody who, just like Robbie Savage who had come out
:51:39. > :51:45.of the game recently and I was making the point about diving and
:51:45. > :51:50.he said, "They all do" and I said, "Does that make it OK?" but the
:51:50. > :51:56.referees are in place to take care of it. But do you want anything
:51:56. > :52:05.done with legal disputes? Trust me, you have to. Not just football, but
:52:05. > :52:10.every sport. Dwayne Chambers, who are drug cheats and they've cheated
:52:10. > :52:15.people out of their level of sport. As soon as money and big business
:52:15. > :52:22.gets involved, sadly it because business and you need the rules.
:52:22. > :52:27.One contributor says, "Turn it to the fans". Hillary Salt is a season
:52:27. > :52:31.ticket holder at one of the biggest and most successful and rich clubs,
:52:31. > :52:37.Manchester United. What do you think is the issue? Are fans part
:52:37. > :52:40.of the problem with why football has moral issues? I think certainly
:52:41. > :52:46.the impact of the Olympics is that politicians and the press have used
:52:46. > :52:54.this as another stick to beat football with. The kind of contempt
:52:54. > :53:00.that politicians and the press have for footballers in the stands is
:53:00. > :53:07.pal.able. At Old Trafford now we have signs up inviting us to text
:53:07. > :53:10.seat number of people behaving badly so they that can be evicted.
:53:10. > :53:15.And that constant intervention I think is part of the problem.
:53:15. > :53:20.don't think there is an issue with racist chanting and abuse. A lot of
:53:20. > :53:30.fans say they don't want to take their kids to games as a result?
:53:30. > :53:36.Yes, those were a cruel and brutal should be evicted. Actually racism
:53:36. > :53:40.isn't a big problem you very rarely hear racist comments thees days,
:53:40. > :53:44.they should focus on swear words now. There are some saying anybody
:53:45. > :53:50.who swears should be baned. But people who go to football behavic
:53:50. > :54:00.that for 90 minutes and for the rest of the week we go back to
:54:00. > :54:01.
:54:01. > :54:07.being mild-mannered accountants and work with the people we've just
:54:07. > :54:15.been insulting. So, is it a wider issue? It is a much wider issue. I
:54:15. > :54:19.was brought up in a rugby culture but I hardly go nowadays.
:54:19. > :54:25.people say you don't get the swearing and you can take your kids.
:54:25. > :54:29.Well, I don't know. The fact is, the professionalism does change
:54:29. > :54:34.things dramatically and it's a very big business. It's a big form of
:54:34. > :54:38.entertainment and if we forget that, well, we're trying to pretend that
:54:38. > :54:42.that reality doesn't exist. That point about racism which was
:54:42. > :54:49.mentioned. It is a problem in football, but it is something that
:54:49. > :54:56.is addressed. That organisation, Kick racism out of football are a
:54:56. > :55:02.fantastic organisation. But one of the reasons they get so angry,
:55:02. > :55:09.footballers are held up to be role modeles, but not necessarily all
:55:09. > :55:15.people are able to cope with being a role model, but some of the
:55:15. > :55:19.problems is that people pay a lot of money and they get angry....I
:55:19. > :55:25.Want to take you back to that first comment, about racism in football.
:55:25. > :55:29.I was one of the first to stand up and speak about racism on the
:55:29. > :55:35.terraces. I've heard people writing that football has a problem with
:55:35. > :55:40.racism and that really angers me and the reason is, there might be
:55:40. > :55:44.an odd comment, and the odd player and boy do we come down hard on it
:55:44. > :55:49.and I think football should be lauded for what it has been done
:55:49. > :55:53.because I think it's changed society. 1993 I started working on
:55:53. > :55:58.this, and I come from an educational background and I
:55:58. > :56:05.couldn't believe it was allowed to go on in the sport on the terraces.
:56:05. > :56:11.Boy we've changed it. We've come a long way. We're not on to educating
:56:11. > :56:15.people in this society, we're educating the whole world and
:56:15. > :56:21.that's fantastic. But you never hear that. Should we be taking that
:56:21. > :56:27.to other sports? It would be nice. We have to leave it, but that's a
:56:27. > :56:31.nice note about the effect in other countries. Viewers are saying"" I'm
:56:31. > :56:37.sure four the money that the players receive I could set a good
:56:37. > :56:42.standard and behave myself." And another says, "It's just lazy
:56:42. > :56:47.journalism all this football bashing." And another says,
:56:47. > :56:56."Footballers need to get some sense of perspective." We have to leave
:56:56. > :57:03.it there, and this 1 what you told us as a result of the poll.
:57:03. > :57:07.14% said yes, we should intervene and the rest said no. I could have
:57:07. > :57:13.predicted that. Eye think it's right and it has big implications
:57:13. > :57:17.for what we do as a nation in the future? Do we become a supered up
:57:17. > :57:22.Sweden or continue to an big player on the world stage? I think we're
:57:22. > :57:27.going to have a very different international profile in the future.
:57:27. > :57:36.And do you think we'll regret having stayed out, maybe in a
:57:36. > :57:38.couple of years? No, Iraq was such a disaster and the reason
:57:38. > :57:44.people..Rubbish. It isn't rubbish. Hundreds of thousands of people
:57:44. > :57:48.died in that and human rights abuses in that country remain
:57:48. > :57:53.indexic. The debate has to be had about the nature of the
:57:53. > :57:57.intervention and whether it as an honest brokage in the Middle East.
:57:58. > :58:03.What are your views? My worry is that governments will intervene not
:58:03. > :58:08.because it is the right or the wrong thing to do but because it
:58:08. > :58:13.will suit them and I THINK the reason we're not helping at the
:58:13. > :58:18.moment is because it would not suit us going forward, the people we
:58:18. > :58:23.would help on the ground and it's a political issue, not a moral one.
:58:23. > :58:28.Thank you all very much more newer thoughts. Thanks to all of you who