:00:11. > :00:16.This week, the Sun defied the Press Complaints Commission and the
:00:16. > :00:20.wishes of the Palace and splashed the pictures of Prince Harry naked
:00:20. > :00:23.in Las Vagas on their front page. They claimed it was in the public
:00:24. > :00:30.interest and that millions worldwide had already seen the
:00:30. > :00:40.images on the internet. Has the press gone too far and does it need
:00:40. > :00:51.
:00:51. > :00:56.Good morning. I'm aneedia rany. Welcome to Sunday morning live.
:00:56. > :01:00.This week, the Sun newspaper published pictures of Prince Harry
:01:00. > :01:04.naked in Las Vagas, claiming it was in the public interest to do so. It
:01:05. > :01:10.sparked a huge public row. Is the Sun pursuing a just cause in
:01:10. > :01:16.standing up for freedom of the press or has it breached the
:01:16. > :01:22.industry's own code on privacy and should the press now face tougher
:01:22. > :01:28.regulation. Anders Breivik, who last year killed 77 fellow
:01:28. > :01:35.countrymen has been sentenced to jail having been expressed as sane
:01:35. > :01:42.and therefore responsible for his outrage. Many claim his sentence
:01:42. > :01:47.was to lenient, but Ken Roach disagrees. Although we are pure
:01:47. > :01:52.love, some people express this as violence. And it's important that
:01:52. > :01:58.we send them even more love. Many believe that marriage is a holy
:01:58. > :02:04.union, a relationship bound together bisexual fidelity. But
:02:04. > :02:09.there are new arguments that say affairs could be a good thing. Do
:02:09. > :02:18.they wreck marriages are can cheating of a positive outcome. A
:02:18. > :02:25.warm welcome to our guests, actor William Roach, also known as Ken
:02:25. > :02:31.Barlow. He is in the Guinness Book of Records as the longest-serving
:02:31. > :02:39.actor on the famous streets. Sna Carole Malone is a Fleet Street
:02:39. > :02:46.journalist and is a broadcaster. She was team captain on Celebrity
:02:46. > :02:52.Fit Club losing three stone, but she fared less well on Celebrity
:02:52. > :02:57.Big Brother. Francis Bennett is an author and
:02:57. > :03:07.broadcaster. He wrote What Did The Baby Boomers Ever Do For Us?
:03:07. > :03:19.
:03:19. > :03:24.We want to know what you think. Now, you could not have failed to
:03:24. > :03:30.notice Prince Harry dominating the headlines this week. Unfortunately,
:03:30. > :03:35.what goes on in vagueious does not stay in vagueious. He must have
:03:35. > :03:42.woken up with a massive hangover, and naked pictures of him appearing
:03:42. > :03:47.on the internet. But only one national newspaper, the Sun printed
:03:47. > :03:52.the pictures, but they appeared on- line.
:03:52. > :03:56.Once again, the conduct of the British media is in public debate.
:03:56. > :04:02.Both the Daily Mirror and the Independent said they would not use
:04:02. > :04:07.the photos because they breached the Prince's privacy. But the Sun
:04:07. > :04:12.said it was in the public interest to publish them. There is some
:04:12. > :04:17.sympathy within the industry for the Sun. Senior newspaper figures
:04:17. > :04:23.have expressed concern that the Press Complaints Commission were
:04:23. > :04:28.too heavy handed when it argued for the non-publication of the pictures.
:04:28. > :04:34.And many believe editors are now far too worried about what the
:04:34. > :04:39.Leveson Inquiry will find. problem is, in this post Leveson
:04:40. > :04:43.era, where newspapers are simply terrified of their own shodeo, they
:04:43. > :04:51.darpt do things that most of the country if they saw it in the paper
:04:51. > :04:56.would think it was a bit of a laugh. The Leveson Inquiry was set up to
:04:56. > :05:02.examine the culture, practice and ethics of the British press
:05:02. > :05:06.following revelations of phone hacking at the News of the World.
:05:06. > :05:10.Many people testified over the undue intrusion into their private
:05:10. > :05:16.lives. Many people will be pleased to see
:05:16. > :05:24.new-found restraint over the photos of the Prince but representatives
:05:24. > :05:30.of freedom of the press will worry that the pendulum has swung too far.
:05:30. > :05:34.So, Carole, does our press need tougher regulation? Not if it means
:05:34. > :05:38.our newspapers look cowed and neutered in the way they did last
:05:38. > :05:44.week. There is a world of difference between being regulated
:05:44. > :05:48.and being neutered. The former means that we have a possible media,
:05:48. > :05:51.the latter means we have a toothless and pointless one. I
:05:51. > :05:55.think the British press looked silly and insignificant in the eyes
:05:55. > :06:05.of the world and because of it I fear for the newspapers. Thank you
:06:05. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:19.very much. That's the question for You can also vote on-line.
:06:19. > :06:23.We'll give you how you voted at the end of the programme. Now, Francis,
:06:23. > :06:28.you're a journalist, surely the last thing you want is more
:06:28. > :06:33.regulation? No, I want to see proper regulation of the press. I
:06:33. > :06:37.don't think our press looked neutered last week. I think the
:06:37. > :06:43.editors who decided not to print the pictures, did so because of
:06:43. > :06:50.Leveson, I think they did it because they thought "are we grubby
:06:50. > :06:55.enough?" I think you're loving in cloud cook you land? Let me finish.
:06:55. > :07:02.These pictures were taken in a man's private hotel room. That
:07:02. > :07:09.could be my hotel room or yours. That's not what investigative
:07:09. > :07:14.journalism is about. Prince Harry lost his right...Please,
:07:14. > :07:21.Investigate gative journalism at the moment has been killed. No it
:07:21. > :07:25.hasn't. It has by things like that. Nothing has stopped any newspaper
:07:25. > :07:32.investigating anything. Before you jump down each other's throats, I
:07:32. > :07:37.want to bring in William about this. You have been in the heart of this.
:07:37. > :07:41.Does the press need curtailing? I believe in total freedom of the
:07:41. > :07:47.press with one rule only that it should be true. If they're being
:07:47. > :07:51.untrue they should be clobbered. And let their readship monitor them.
:07:51. > :07:56.Nothing else. You've worked for the News of the World, Carole. They're
:07:56. > :08:02.economical with the truth. No. I'm not saying there are not legitimate
:08:02. > :08:08.concerns in some sections of the media, that is absolutely true and
:08:08. > :08:13.Leveson has highlighted that and that's true. But I think the Prince
:08:13. > :08:19.Harry story was in the public interest. Who's interest. Let me
:08:19. > :08:23.finish my point. Well, answer the question. I will, if you let me.
:08:23. > :08:27.One because he's in line to the throne and two he's a senior
:08:27. > :08:32.working Royal and three, he represents the Queen around the
:08:32. > :08:39.world. People were saying he's like any other 27-year-old. No he isn't.
:08:39. > :08:44.I red one point that said, "He's a red-blooded male." No he isn't.
:08:44. > :08:48.He's blue blooded and with that comes responsibilities.
:08:48. > :08:52.But these photos were already out there. And 30 million had already
:08:52. > :08:55.seen them on the internet. Yes, I know. The argument that somebody
:08:55. > :08:59.has already done something they shouldn't have done on the internet
:09:00. > :09:03.therefore we ought to do it in the newspapers is exactly the same
:09:03. > :09:08.argument that people gave during the riots. They said, "Other people
:09:08. > :09:12.were rioting, so I thought it was all right to riot." The fact that
:09:12. > :09:16.somebody else has sneaked naked pictures from a hotel room, it
:09:16. > :09:22.might have been your room or my room and put them on the internet
:09:22. > :09:27.doesn't mean it's right to do. the accusation that he had his
:09:27. > :09:34.privacy invaded, he had an all-day party around a very public pool
:09:34. > :09:43.were people were taking photos all the time That's different. Those
:09:43. > :09:51.pictures were OK. When you invite 25 strangers into your bedroom all
:09:51. > :10:01.with cameras, you forfeit the right to privacy. One of the...Francis,
:10:01. > :10:10.Let Bill have his say. If you have a full-blooded guy enjoying himself,
:10:10. > :10:16.what's wrong with nakedness? Let me bring in Professor Steven Barnet
:10:16. > :10:23.from the Univsity of Westminster. Will this cast rate the press?
:10:23. > :10:28.it won't. I get cross with columnists who are scaremongering
:10:28. > :10:32.about state intervention. All we're talk being is trying to find a way
:10:32. > :10:35.of persuading the press to implement its very own code of
:10:35. > :10:39.conduct. The Press Complaints Commission has a code of conduct.
:10:39. > :10:43.The clause 3 makes it clear it is unacceptable to photograph
:10:43. > :10:46.individuals in private places without their consent. This is a
:10:46. > :10:50.clear breach of that code. Newspapers have not been prepared
:10:51. > :10:56.to follow their own code now for over 20 years. Time and again
:10:56. > :11:01.they've used their corporate power, and this is what it's really about,
:11:01. > :11:06.it's about corporate power, to trash other people's lives when
:11:06. > :11:09.they feel like it. It's nothing to do with investigate gative
:11:09. > :11:13.journalism, it's simply about holding that power to account.
:11:13. > :11:19.Anyone who wanted to, could see the pictures on the internet. They
:11:19. > :11:24.didn't have to be published in the Sun. These are spurious arguments
:11:24. > :11:29.being put forward by large media conglomerates who are terrified
:11:29. > :11:35.that they will not be allowed to publish pictures that sell
:11:35. > :11:44.newspapers. Isn't this what it's about, selling newspapers. You say
:11:44. > :11:47.that like it's a crime. Newspapers are a business. But isn't it about
:11:47. > :11:51.investigative journalism? everything is about that. One of
:11:51. > :11:56.the things I feel is important here is the fact that this story, the
:11:56. > :12:00.fact that somebody set a honey trap for Harry. That is a news story in
:12:00. > :12:08.itself. If this isn't a news story I don't know what is. Every paper
:12:08. > :12:14.around the world thinks it is, it's only in this country we don't think
:12:14. > :12:18.so. One of the consequences was, a honey trap was set up for the third
:12:18. > :12:24.in line to the throne. That is news. It may not be the kind of news you
:12:24. > :12:29.like, but it is news. But you can report it without printing the
:12:29. > :12:35.pictures. Steven, do you think it's right that the people who have
:12:35. > :12:41.trashed newspaper journalism in the past few years are the editors
:12:41. > :12:45.themselves. Do I think it's right? Do you think it's the case. Yes, I
:12:45. > :12:49.think that's absolutely right. And when people talk about better
:12:49. > :12:56.regulation of the press, what I want to see is that better
:12:56. > :13:01.regulation of the press will mean better investigate gative
:13:01. > :13:07.journalism. Absolutely. Because what you can do whilst we've seen
:13:07. > :13:12.some of the worst abuses over the past few years, you can protect and
:13:12. > :13:17.preserve the better journalism. We've seen abused cepgs and the
:13:17. > :13:20.treatment of elderly people in homes. That's the kind of
:13:20. > :13:30.journalism that we want and the kind that the kids I teach want to
:13:30. > :13:32.
:13:32. > :13:39.But all of those stories that Steven has just spoken about, have
:13:39. > :13:45.been covered in tabloids as well. want to bring in another journalist,
:13:45. > :13:53.Paul McMullan. There's lots of points there, but some would say
:13:53. > :13:58.all you did was push sleaze. Yes, very much so. The professor, I
:13:58. > :14:08.don't know, he may not have been a journalist because his point is
:14:08. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:15.idiotic. I have a journalist friend whose had a surveillance van that
:14:15. > :14:21.is parked outside his house for three months and I sold my own van
:14:21. > :14:28.about six months ago, because it is expensive to do an investigation. I
:14:28. > :14:35.gave an example, where I had to go to knock on a door in Switzerland
:14:36. > :14:41.just to see if something was true and that cost �2,000. So we spr
:14:41. > :14:48.desperately need all the sleazy titilating articles just to pay for
:14:48. > :14:58.this. Do we? Why? Because we need to make millions of pounds a year
:14:58. > :15:04.to put someone in a surveillance van like me because it costs �400 a
:15:04. > :15:08.day to do that. And already Leveson has had an impact on it because
:15:08. > :15:16.people are selling their equipment because there is no need for us any
:15:17. > :15:21.more, but the MPs have free rein to do what they want. The best
:15:21. > :15:25.investigative journalists I know don't use surveillance or phone
:15:26. > :15:35.tapping. They find things out that the rich and powerful would rather
:15:36. > :15:37.
:15:37. > :15:42.we don't know. Nick Wright in the Guardian who found out about the
:15:42. > :15:48.expenses affair, never used anything like that, and I know
:15:48. > :15:52.others who are the best investigate gative journalists but it's not
:15:52. > :15:56.about these sorts of things, it's about finding out things that the
:15:57. > :16:02.rich and powerful would rather we didn't know and telling us. But
:16:02. > :16:07.you're right to say investigate gative journalism is expensive and
:16:07. > :16:15.that's why it's being got rid of by national newspapers because they
:16:15. > :16:24.would vther have -- they would rather have the cheap sleaze.
:16:24. > :16:30.about cheap sleaze, like Hugh Grant and Steve Coogan they complain the
:16:30. > :16:34.loudest because they've been caught with their pants down. Those who
:16:35. > :16:39.aren't caught don't complain. why catch them. Because you need
:16:39. > :16:44.the money. Again, it's about the money and selling newspapers.
:16:44. > :16:49.Matthew Taylor, on the one hand we have a proud tradition of
:16:49. > :16:57.investigate gative journalism in this country, but there you have
:16:57. > :17:02.Paul McMullan saying you have to push the sleaze to generate the
:17:02. > :17:06.income what is the solution to this? Newspapers as a whole are in
:17:06. > :17:10.trouble. They do not have a business model. So there is a
:17:10. > :17:17.background to this whole conversation that we may not have
:17:17. > :17:23.any newspapers at all in ten or 15 years. I love the argument that we
:17:23. > :17:26.take photographs of naked celebrities in order to subsidise
:17:26. > :17:30.powerful investigate gative journalism into the rich and
:17:30. > :17:36.powerful. That's nonsense. The newspapers that do that kind of
:17:36. > :17:40.thing are not interested. Let's take one example. Banking. The
:17:40. > :17:46.British and world economy was screwed up by banking. Where were
:17:46. > :17:52.the investigate gative journalists exploring what was taking place in
:17:52. > :17:57.those banks? All those surveillance banks why were were they not doing
:17:57. > :18:03.work over a group of people who were about to drag the entire world
:18:03. > :18:09.economy into the state it is in. We need investigations into people who
:18:09. > :18:16.control our lives and people who are running around trapping people
:18:16. > :18:22.just to sell newspapers shouldn't be happy. So how do we regulate it?
:18:22. > :18:29.Have a standards agency? Yes, I think we can. Any form of
:18:29. > :18:34.regulation is tantamount to returning to the Soviet union.
:18:34. > :18:39.Ultimately there is a power, but you don't use legal power it's a
:18:39. > :18:42.system of self-regulation, but in the end, as we've seen from self-
:18:42. > :18:47.regulation in this country, unless ultimately you have the possibility
:18:47. > :18:52.of the Government saying, "I'm sorry you're not regulating
:18:52. > :18:57.yourselves we're going to have to do something" unless you have that
:18:57. > :19:04.power there will be no regulation and that's what we've seen.
:19:04. > :19:11.Let me bring in Patrick Hayes who is for freedom of speech. So this
:19:11. > :19:15.is about self-regulation? That's what people say, it ultimately
:19:15. > :19:20.comes down to self-regulation, but we have the state to prosecute if
:19:20. > :19:24.we don't like it. People don't seem to have much faith in the public to
:19:24. > :19:30.decide for themselves what they choose to buy or see. I would say
:19:30. > :19:35.the problem in the UK is not too little regulation but too much. We
:19:35. > :19:40.already have the worst liable laws in the country and a nosey Press
:19:40. > :19:46.Complaints Commission and now the Leveson Inquiry, which even Michael
:19:46. > :19:51.Gove said is having a chilling effect on freedom of speech. We're
:19:51. > :19:56.increasingly trusting the media to faceless unelected authorities when
:19:56. > :20:01.we should be leaving it to society to decide what they're interested
:20:01. > :20:08.in. This is about an illegal activity, phone hacking which came
:20:08. > :20:12.out in a public way and it's surely gone too far now? No decent
:20:12. > :20:17.journalist should ever hack a phone and search right about that. The
:20:18. > :20:22.people in this country have been used to a free press. Most of them
:20:22. > :20:26.have never known anything else. God help us if they don't have that
:20:26. > :20:30.because there's only one reason the laws will be set is because
:20:30. > :20:35.politicians have to be accountable to the people who vote for them,
:20:35. > :20:39.and we're starting with this, the Harry story is the frivolous one in
:20:39. > :20:45.the scheme of things, but if politicians are not accountable to
:20:45. > :20:53.us and we're not allowed to know what they're doing and how they do
:20:53. > :20:59.it, God help us all. Yes. Francis is agreeing with you? I am. That's
:20:59. > :21:04.why I'm for the regulation from the National Association of Journalists.
:21:04. > :21:07.It requires a body with statutory powers but a body that is not
:21:07. > :21:12.responsible to Government or answers to politicians. The one
:21:12. > :21:15.thing you have to do with regulation is to ensure that
:21:15. > :21:20.politicians cannot dictate what goes into it. Absolutely. And it is
:21:20. > :21:24.quite clear to me that self- regulation has now completely
:21:24. > :21:30.failed. As I said earlier, I believe in total freedom provided
:21:30. > :21:35.they're not breaking the law and it is truthful and then let the
:21:35. > :21:40.readers decide. Let's see what the readers think. Cliff has said, "How
:21:40. > :21:46.many men have been naked in a hotel room? The question should be about
:21:46. > :21:53.the creep who took the photos. Colin says, "As a 30-plus reader of
:21:53. > :22:00.the Sun I thought it was were pretty to print the photos of
:22:00. > :22:08.Prince Harry, they need to grow up or they'll lose readers like me.
:22:08. > :22:18.And another one says, "The people should vote by going or not to
:22:18. > :22:20.
:22:20. > :22:30.their newsagents. You have around 20 minutes before
:22:30. > :22:34.the poll closes. Now, this week mass murderer Anders
:22:34. > :22:40.Breivik was sentenced to 21 years in Prince for killing 77 people
:22:40. > :22:45.last year in Norway. Was that the right response? William Roach, star
:22:45. > :22:51.of Coronation Street has a unique perspective. He thinks we should
:22:51. > :22:56.forgive and even be able to love such evil men. Although we are pure
:22:56. > :22:59.love, some personalities, through their free will can express this as
:22:59. > :23:07.hate and violence. And it's important that we send them even
:23:07. > :23:12.more love to get them back on track. Love is the light and energy of the
:23:12. > :23:20.Creator. It is the life force. It is the source that creates the
:23:20. > :23:29.atoms and all that is. We live through the energy of love.
:23:29. > :23:37.Mass murderers, like Anders Breivik ja -- and James Holmes who recently
:23:37. > :23:42.opened fire in a cinema in Denver. And Peter West have all committed
:23:42. > :23:46.heinous crimes. They need more love than anyone. That love that can
:23:46. > :23:52.turn even the most abhorrent murderers into meaningful members
:23:52. > :23:57.of the society. People talk about the death sentence, but humans
:23:57. > :24:03.should never kill. Not even in the name of the State. We should love,
:24:03. > :24:10.whatever our fellow humans have per traited. Cause and effect should
:24:10. > :24:16.teach them to change their ways, but it is teaching that helps them
:24:16. > :24:21.change. Kindness and forgiveness are things in action. Forgiveness
:24:21. > :24:29.can be difficult. The idea of forgiving a person who has killed
:24:29. > :24:33.on a mass scale is not easy. But by forgiving, you can change the
:24:33. > :24:39.offender. Love solves all. Love is everything.
:24:39. > :24:46.And no matter how hard a choice, it's important that we express that
:24:46. > :24:51.love and forgiveness, especially to those who need it the most.
:24:51. > :24:59.Controversial stuff. If you have a webcam you can make your point on
:24:59. > :25:05.Skype or join the conversation on Twitter. Phone, text or e-mail.
:25:05. > :25:10.Francis, surely love is another way? No, I'm sorry, Bill. I think
:25:10. > :25:15.that's the most awful rubbish I've heard in ages. It's a collection of
:25:15. > :25:22.feel-good words. It's the largest possible number of feel-good words
:25:22. > :25:26.crammed into the smallest possible amount of meaning. It's verbal
:25:26. > :25:31.candy floss. With Breivik, let me take that, there is grounds for a
:25:31. > :25:36.little bit of hope in the Breivik story and it is this, that since
:25:36. > :25:42.the shooting, the organisation, the youth Labour organisation in Norway,
:25:42. > :25:47.where he -- 47 members of which he 8, has grown by 50%. That's young
:25:47. > :25:52.people in Norway saying, "To hell with you, Breivik, we don't care
:25:52. > :25:56.about -- we have now looked at this organisation. Quite often that
:25:57. > :26:01.happens with an idea that you try to kill by killing people, that the
:26:01. > :26:07.idea is strengthened. As for Breivik himself, let him go to
:26:07. > :26:12.prison and let him rot. Obviously Francis completely disagrees with
:26:12. > :26:16.Bill, but you only have to look at South Africa, that is an entire
:26:16. > :26:21.country that decided to deal with what happened to them in an
:26:21. > :26:25.entirely different way. Norway should be applauded for the calm
:26:25. > :26:31.and dignified way they've handled this. They decide the attention
:26:31. > :26:36.should be on the victims and not the perpetrator. And it is
:26:36. > :26:41.interesting that Breivik was protesting against multi-cut
:26:41. > :26:47.Uralism, pro-immigration has grown. What do you think about the idea of
:26:47. > :26:52.love. With the greatest of respect, who looks like a heart-throb on
:26:52. > :26:57.that film. He's sitting next to you. I know. Forgiveness is a very
:26:57. > :27:07.special and precious thing and why would you give it to a man who
:27:07. > :27:11.doesn't want it or deserve it. Jis it is people like Ken...Bill.
:27:11. > :27:16.Sorry. It's the liberal views that Breivik hates. He doesn't want
:27:16. > :27:22.forgiveness. He made it perfectly clear in that courtroom. He wanted
:27:22. > :27:28.people to know he was absolutely sane when he slaughtered those
:27:28. > :27:34.people. Bill, they're not buying it. You don't understand me. I'm not a
:27:34. > :27:40.liberal person and I'm not sanctimonious. I'm not saying let
:27:41. > :27:46.him off. In fact, that 21 years doesn't mean that. No, he probably
:27:46. > :27:50.will never get out. I'm not talking about that. Forgiveness is
:27:50. > :27:59.important because by not forgiving you restrict yourself and you're
:27:59. > :28:04.not a loving person. Breivik is initially and essentially pure love.
:28:04. > :28:11.His persona and ego, through free will has made him behave in this
:28:11. > :28:16.way. Let me make my point. So what I'm saying, forgiving, by the way
:28:16. > :28:22.is universal, you can forgive all the time you don't run out of it.
:28:22. > :28:29.And by forgiving him, if you send love to someone like that, the love
:28:29. > :28:35.that is inside will radiate out and he'll be gin to say" yeah, what I
:28:35. > :28:41.did was wrong" and he will know that by receiving love he will stop
:28:41. > :28:45.it. I'm not, when I say there's no punishment, there's only teaching,
:28:45. > :28:53.sometimes the teaching can be far tougher than the punishment and I'm
:28:53. > :29:00.not saying he should be released at all. I'm going to bring in Marion
:29:00. > :29:05.Partington and Marion's sister was murdered by Fred and Rosemary West.
:29:05. > :29:10.Have you managed to forgive? Well, first of all, I'd like to say thank
:29:10. > :29:16.you to William for what he said because it really rings true in my
:29:16. > :29:23.own experience. I've had to look deep within me to move towards a
:29:23. > :29:29.place of healing and I come to know the truth through a Chinese saying
:29:29. > :29:35.which is, "He who cannot forgive must dig two graves." So it's very
:29:35. > :29:42.much a matter of life and death, not just for me or the Wests, but
:29:42. > :29:46.the whole of society that we actually look within us and realise
:29:46. > :29:52.our own capacity for evil and our own capacity for love and the
:29:52. > :29:58.choice that we can make. But you're talking about forgiveness. What
:29:58. > :30:07.about this idea of loving them? Well, forgiveness is a very complex
:30:07. > :30:11.word that needs untag aming. It's very -- untangling. It's very close
:30:11. > :30:15.to love. It's about realising the power of love and realising that
:30:15. > :30:20.attitudely fear is the opposite of love and when you say things like,
:30:20. > :30:25."Lock them up and throw away the key" that is actually coming from a
:30:25. > :30:31.position of fear and our society, the question also is why are people
:30:31. > :30:41.behaving like this? We need to move towards trying to understand them,
:30:41. > :30:45.not cut them off and try and write them off. It helped you, didn't it.
:30:45. > :30:51.By forgiving you released something within yourself and you open up and
:30:51. > :30:55.become more loving. Marion, thank you very much. I want to bring in
:30:55. > :31:04.Erik Dale, who is from Nora and two friends died in the attacks. It's
:31:04. > :31:09.two years on, can you ever imagine be stowing love on Anders Breivik?
:31:09. > :31:14.Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me on the show and
:31:14. > :31:20.for Mr Roach for his interesting point of view. I think we need to
:31:20. > :31:27.see what we expect society can do and what individuals can do. People
:31:27. > :31:31.deal with pain differently. Perhaps on a personal level perhaps I have
:31:31. > :31:37.forgiven him. Like everyone else my shock and disbelief went into anger
:31:37. > :31:42.and then compassion and now I don't feel very much at all, only loss
:31:42. > :31:46.for my friends who will never come back again. So what I do as an
:31:47. > :31:53.individual may be different from what I hope society would do. As a
:31:53. > :31:59.society, it would be difficult for us to except that everyone would be
:31:59. > :32:04.stow love on someone who has taken away 77 of the finest people in our
:32:04. > :32:10.country. Carole. That's true. I think it was the scale of what
:32:10. > :32:15.happened. 77 is a huge number of people. I think Breivik would have
:32:15. > :32:20.liked to have caused a bigger furore than he actually has. Nar
:32:20. > :32:25.way is happy with the laws they have and they will deal with this
:32:25. > :32:31.man, but I think it's a big ask of the Norwegian people to ask hem not
:32:31. > :32:36.just to forgive this man but to love him. He doesn't deserve love.
:32:36. > :32:44.And the lady before, Marion was saying..But Both of them have been
:32:44. > :32:51.able to say they forgive? Yes, but Marion was saying the phrase, "Lock
:32:51. > :32:57.him up and throw away the key" is borne out of fear, that's right.
:32:57. > :33:05.People have a right to be scared of Anders Breivik, he could shoot more
:33:05. > :33:12.if he was let out. Now, you have managed to forgive your son's
:33:12. > :33:17.murderers, who was shot, ray, why? Well, many say that when you
:33:17. > :33:22.forgive you're set free yourself. And I'm forgiving because I'm not
:33:22. > :33:27.letting those boys have a hold over me. But you must have felt so angry
:33:27. > :33:36.at the time, why did you decide that forgiveness was the way
:33:36. > :33:44.forward? It was easy for me, but my wife it was harder. For me, being
:33:44. > :33:50.from the area, I knew those boys killed him fuelled by drink and
:33:50. > :33:54.drugs. Ray, do you now go into prisons and talk to offenders?
:33:54. > :34:00.I do. I heard an amazing radio interview with you recently where
:34:00. > :34:05.you and your wife were talking about you couldn't begin to get
:34:05. > :34:13.over our son's death until you forgave the people who killed him.
:34:13. > :34:18.This is my point exactly. It is what it does to you. Not him, not
:34:18. > :34:23.Breivik or anything that has happened. You release yourself and
:34:23. > :34:29.then you find inside, if everybody in the world realised they were
:34:29. > :34:37.pure love inside all the problems with be resolved. I'm talk about
:34:37. > :34:44.love, not a sanctimonious sentimental.....That's A step too
:34:44. > :34:49.far. It's not enough to say we're pure love I'm sorry, I cannot allow
:34:49. > :34:55.that. Every human being is a spiritual being which is pure,
:34:55. > :34:59.unconditional love our ego that is built a cloud around it. The three
:34:59. > :35:06.people, who, for their own reasons, have managed to forgive what was
:35:06. > :35:11.done, but what we're talking about...But Hasn't it proved that
:35:11. > :35:17.forgiveness has worked? Having spoken to these three people hadn't
:35:17. > :35:23.it proved that forgiveness has worked? No. We're talking to three
:35:23. > :35:28.people who, for their own reasons are themselves immediately affected.
:35:28. > :35:33.We have to talk about what we do as a society. That's different. It's
:35:33. > :35:39.not. It's exactly the say. There are an awful lot of people in the
:35:39. > :35:43.world who are in serious trouble who need our love and help and none
:35:43. > :35:51.of us should be wasting any of that on the likes of Anders Breivik.
:35:51. > :36:01.oh, oh. Sorry. But you've made your point, Francis, we can't hear
:36:01. > :36:07.either of you. We might as well say, "Look, Adolph, that was really very
:36:07. > :36:12.naughty. Jgs No, Francis, I'm going to get my word in. Bill, has he not
:36:12. > :36:17.got a point. Surely they have forgiven because it's their
:36:17. > :36:23.personal experience. Why should we, as a society forget the likes of
:36:23. > :36:29.Fred and Rose West. Just a minute. Can we not love the people who have
:36:29. > :36:33.had a closer experience than we have. Love releases you. Love is
:36:33. > :36:38.universal. We're all beings of love and if we go inside and ratade that
:36:38. > :36:43.out to everybody, the poor, wherever you go, but forgiveness
:36:43. > :36:49.releases you from that. We have a choice whether to give forgiveness
:36:49. > :36:54.and love, don't we? And some might choose not to fer give Anders
:36:54. > :36:59.Breivik. Right. Right Let's see what the audience has to say on
:36:59. > :37:05.this. One says, "Bill is right. Hatred will damage us. We should
:37:05. > :37:11.love the person and detest the crime. Another says, "Some mass
:37:11. > :37:16.murderers have to be punished" and another says, "The only people who
:37:16. > :37:26.have the right to forgive are the victims' families.
:37:26. > :37:31.Now can can having an affair be a recipe for a good marriage?
:37:31. > :37:41.You can join in to the conversation in these ways.
:37:41. > :37:48.
:37:48. > :37:58.Remember, keep your voting coming You have five minutes before the
:37:58. > :37:59.
:37:59. > :38:04.poll closes. It's time for our moral moment of
:38:04. > :38:10.the week. Francis, you first. mine's really, politicians never
:38:10. > :38:15.say they were wrong and so my moral accolade of the week, really, goes
:38:15. > :38:18.to the Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, who, this week, announced
:38:18. > :38:22.that Governments for the past 30 years have been wrong to assume
:38:22. > :38:26.that the private sector can always do everything better than the
:38:26. > :38:31.public sector. That when the public sector goes wrong all you have to
:38:31. > :38:36.do is springle a little commercial gold dust. He's looked at what
:38:36. > :38:41.happened to G4S and this week when the private company that now owns
:38:41. > :38:46.and maintains London's fire engines handed them all over for �2 to a
:38:46. > :38:51.venture capital company created last month. And he has said,
:38:51. > :38:57."Actually, maybe this dogma that we've had for the last 30 years,
:38:57. > :39:01.governments of New Labour and Conservative governments, maybe
:39:02. > :39:06.it's wrong." Conservatives requesting privatisation, bill?
:39:06. > :39:13.but it's balance. Are you saying privatisation is good or
:39:13. > :39:21.nationalisation is good, no, it's a balance. But if a Government lets
:39:21. > :39:29.out a concern to a private company, there should be some regulation.
:39:29. > :39:33.Carole? Mine is about a soldier who served in the British army and he's
:39:33. > :39:38.from Botswana. And he has a wife in this country. But he is about to be
:39:38. > :39:44.thrown out of Britain because he got stopped on a motorway at 1.30
:39:44. > :39:50.in the morning doing 80 miles an hour and he got a speeding ticket.
:39:51. > :39:56.He was doing 80 miles per hour an hour in a 50 mile an hour area of
:39:56. > :40:00.road works and he got fined, but he's going to be thrown out of the
:40:01. > :40:08.country because of new laws. Even though he's prepared to die for
:40:08. > :40:12.this country. And there was another story about a Fijiian soldier who
:40:12. > :40:19.served in Afghanistan and Bosnia, and throw him out because he had a
:40:19. > :40:24.fight with another soldier in the mess. We don't want people in this
:40:24. > :40:29.country who come here and do nothing. We want people who love
:40:29. > :40:35.Britain and want to be here and who are prepared to die for this
:40:35. > :40:40.country. And it's almost like slavery, fight for us but don't
:40:40. > :40:47.imagine you can have any of 9 benefits. I don't disagree with
:40:47. > :40:51.that Carole is saying, but I'd like to embark on an investigation of
:40:51. > :40:57.why this is happening. And the reason it is happening, is there is
:40:58. > :41:04.an awful lot of immigration hysteria. And people like Carole.
:41:04. > :41:09.How dare you accuse me about being biased about immigrants. You wrote
:41:09. > :41:14.about them being give cards, but that's not the case. It is the case,
:41:14. > :41:18.but that is by the by. This will stop happening if a large number of
:41:18. > :41:23.people on right-wing national newspapers stop targeting
:41:23. > :41:30.immigrants. No, this is happening because the Government changed the
:41:30. > :41:34.rules about soldiers in 201. Because they were influenced by the
:41:34. > :41:41.newspapers. They were not influenced by tabloids, that's
:41:41. > :41:46.ridiculous. Bill, now your moral moment. I'd just like to mention
:41:46. > :41:51.Neil Armstrong who has just died, aged 826789 I remember in 1969,
:41:51. > :41:56.because I'm very old, sitting in front of the television riveted and
:41:56. > :42:04.watching every moment as the first man actually set on the moon with
:42:04. > :42:10.those immortal words "one small step for man, one great leap for
:42:10. > :42:15.mankind." And he is a total hero. And he was always very modest as
:42:16. > :42:21.well. A very modest man and a lot of them had almost a spiritual
:42:21. > :42:27.experience, it was the first time we saw pictures of the world.
:42:27. > :42:30.it inspire you, Francis? Yes, it was very inspiring. It was a
:42:30. > :42:35.wonderful moment. I always suspected that those words were
:42:35. > :42:44.scripted by someone in the White House. Even if they were, who
:42:44. > :42:50.cares? I just want to add a rider to that. I played golf in the Bob
:42:50. > :42:55.Hope Classic many years ago, and the guy in the main mother ship
:42:55. > :42:58.going round while he landed, he was playing and I was asking him about
:42:58. > :43:04.the trip to the moon and whether they had a religious moment and I
:43:04. > :43:09.asked, "What was your overall feeling?" and he said, "Fear, from
:43:09. > :43:12.the moment we set off to the moment we got home." So they are very
:43:12. > :43:17.brave people. Thank you very much for those. You h you have been
:43:17. > :43:22.voting in our poll this morning, does our press need tougher
:43:22. > :43:26.regulation. The polls are closing now, so please do not text as you
:43:26. > :43:32.may be charged. We'll bring you the results at the
:43:32. > :43:38.end of the show. Now, new research claims that the
:43:38. > :43:43.secret to a long and happy marriage is to have affairs. It argues that
:43:43. > :43:48.a puritanical approach to marriage only leads to divorce or miserable
:43:48. > :43:52.sell bait unions. One of the findings of this new research shows
:43:52. > :43:56.that many people are unfaithful because their marriage is not
:43:56. > :44:05.providing them with an active enough sex life. The research
:44:05. > :44:10.argues that we need to rethink our terms-of-marriage and allow
:44:10. > :44:16.playfairs or marriage holidays free from the notion of betrayal.
:44:16. > :44:22.Religious groups argue that the commandment Thou shalt not commit
:44:22. > :44:28.adultery remains the bedrock of our society and the moral glue that
:44:28. > :44:33.holds families together and psychologists say affairs cause
:44:33. > :44:39.severe emotional stress and shatter the trust in a shelgsship. Is there
:44:39. > :44:44.such a thing as good infidelity and we can have successful affairs
:44:44. > :44:51.where both parties are happier and no-one gets hurt and we lower the
:44:51. > :44:55.divorce rate, or do affairs just cause misery and heartache. Are we
:44:55. > :45:00.fundamently far too jealous for an open relationship and the fear we
:45:00. > :45:08.could be ditched for a new model. I bet that's got your attention. You
:45:08. > :45:13.can join in by webcam or make your point by phone, text or exmail.
:45:13. > :45:22.We're joined by Rosie Freeman-Jones of Illicit Encounters iflt, a
:45:22. > :45:26.dating website for married people. Rosie, - come on. Illicit affairs.
:45:26. > :45:32.That can't be good for marriage? Well, my research shows that it is.
:45:32. > :45:38.I've been at the site for four years now, it's been running since
:45:38. > :45:43.2003 and essentially we're a website running for people wanting
:45:43. > :45:49.extramarital affairs. And are they admitted it to their partners?
:45:49. > :45:55.are, and we're seeing a lot more open relationships. Snix you're
:45:55. > :46:01.really going to have to sell thousand is beneficial. It is a
:46:01. > :46:07.huge stress reliever. If people decide they want to have an
:46:07. > :46:11.extramarital affair they can come to our website and they know it
:46:11. > :46:18.will be stkpwret. These are people who are seeing their lovers once or
:46:18. > :46:23.twice a month, if that. And these are people who are married, it's
:46:23. > :46:28.not like they're going to work colleagues and choosing to destroy
:46:28. > :46:35.relationships, they're isolating it. It is a huge stress reliever. And
:46:35. > :46:40.it means they can be the spouse they want to be at home and not nag
:46:40. > :46:47.the person they're with for something they don't want to give.
:46:47. > :46:55.Bill. You've been married twice and you've had affairs. TVs a stress
:46:55. > :47:01.releaver? In the '60s. I was totally promiscuous and horrendous.
:47:01. > :47:06.But then I've had a 35-year, very successful marriage to Sarah. So
:47:06. > :47:12.I've seen both sides. I think it's wonderful. People shouldn't feel
:47:12. > :47:15.tied. But if you say is infidelity the key to a good marriage, I'd say
:47:15. > :47:20.no, because it indicates there is something wrong with the marriage
:47:20. > :47:24.or something missing. If they can make their marriage work because of
:47:24. > :47:31.this, good. Everything is individual and we shouldn't
:47:31. > :47:37.moralise or judge. If it helps them. Did it help you? No, it didn't. My
:47:37. > :47:47.first marriage was totally ruined by my behaviour. But if I'm given
:47:47. > :47:52.the choice of being a free loving promiscuous guy, or a faithful
:47:52. > :47:57.marriage, I would choose the faithful marriage. Carole? No, I
:47:57. > :48:03.don't buy it. It's betraying the people you're supposed to love. And
:48:03. > :48:10.it's all very well to say it makes the person who is cheating feel
:48:10. > :48:13.better, but it's not good for the person who is cheated upon, because
:48:13. > :48:19.they start feeling worse about themselves and taking the blame for
:48:19. > :48:25.what has happened. I think it's nonsense. Ask Clive James how he
:48:25. > :48:30.feels this week. Tell that to Demi Moore. Let me give you a scenario.
:48:30. > :48:35.If you're in a mature relationship and you've been married for 20
:48:35. > :48:40.years and for whatever reason one person isn't interested in sex and
:48:40. > :48:44.you allow that other person could it work? If it's an open marriage
:48:44. > :48:50.where both parties agree and there are no secrets and lies, and they
:48:50. > :48:55.both decide on it, that's fine. But my problem is when one person is
:48:55. > :48:59.cheated upon and what happens when they find out. It's a very one-
:48:59. > :49:07.dimension view of sex. It's not about sex, it's about love.
:49:07. > :49:13.some people it is. Maybe for men. agree, the only bad thing...
:49:13. > :49:18.have pretty much equal numbers, so gendering it is wrong. But do they
:49:18. > :49:22.think it's OK to lie to the other person? This happens and it's been
:49:22. > :49:29.happening for centuries and we have to think about how we deal with it.
:49:29. > :49:33.Infidelity is a fact of life. Now we can choose to conduct these
:49:33. > :49:37.relationships stkpwretly, and in an ideal world I agree. In an ideal
:49:37. > :49:41.world we would have open relationships and people would
:49:41. > :49:45.communicate openly and speak to our spouse and say, "I'm not happy" and
:49:45. > :49:51.I think that happens in some instances. But those people when
:49:51. > :49:56.they are not able to follow those channels they can come to our
:49:56. > :50:02.website. Yes, you should be able to say I'm not happy and I want to end
:50:02. > :50:07.the relationship and start another one. Clare-Ann, welcome to the
:50:07. > :50:16.programme. If Monday knoll me is not a good state, and we should let
:50:16. > :50:24.everyone go get on with what they want to do. Why are we imposing it
:50:24. > :50:30.on snerch Well, I think monogamy is one where the human heart can find
:50:30. > :50:34.true happiness. It is self-giving. It is not for self-gain and this
:50:34. > :50:38.constant perpetual seeking of self- satisfaction is, on the contrary,
:50:38. > :50:45.drives people to misery. Constantly seeking themselves or looking at a
:50:45. > :50:50.spouse who is meant to be like your own flesh and blood is purely an
:50:50. > :50:55.object for gain. And people enter into marriage for the exclusivity
:50:55. > :51:01.that it brings and the thrill of 100% of someone's love and giving
:51:01. > :51:04.100% of your love to one person. And let's not forget about the
:51:04. > :51:08.broader picture, it has been proven time and time again that the best
:51:08. > :51:14.place for bringing up children is in a stable relationship. What will
:51:14. > :51:17.be the dome know effect on society if this is what is encouraged for
:51:17. > :51:27.supposedly fixing the problems in snaerge
:51:27. > :51:31.
:51:31. > :51:35.Stay there, I want to bring in ant knee cristofani, who has been in a
:51:35. > :51:42.poly velgs-for years. And you and your wife are about to marry your
:51:42. > :51:49.girlfriend. How does that work? It's kind of like a single person
:51:49. > :51:54.deciding to fall in love and make a commit but you're adding to it. And
:51:54. > :51:59.all that is required is realising that love is not, it's not a
:51:59. > :52:05.scarcety that we tend to think it is. We have more love I think than
:52:05. > :52:09.most people have to give. Think of a mother. She has a kid and thinks,
:52:09. > :52:16."I could never love anything more than this" and then she has another
:52:16. > :52:22.kid and she loves them both. And we do that with our friends and kids
:52:22. > :52:28.and poleyam rus people think we can do it with our lovers. Clare-Ann,
:52:28. > :52:33.that is working for Anthony, what do you think? Well, I agree with
:52:33. > :52:37.them that of course we all have a lot of love to give and everyone
:52:37. > :52:44.aims to find happiness. I just believe that the key to finding
:52:44. > :52:50.that happiness is giving 100% of oneself. True happiness comes from
:52:50. > :52:56.giving, we hear that time and time again and what is more than giving
:52:56. > :53:02.100% to another person. Not revving something for yourself or another
:53:02. > :53:10.partner. I can't see how this can lead to true happy snns Anthony?
:53:10. > :53:14.Did Jesus give his love to only one person? I'm not saying that you
:53:14. > :53:18.have to...no, there's obviously lots of kinds of love everywhere in
:53:19. > :53:25.the world. But you can't love everyone in the marital sense. That
:53:25. > :53:30.has to be preserved for one person. Well, I love two. But we're talking
:53:30. > :53:35.about sex here, Anthony? We're talking about sex? I thought we
:53:35. > :53:42.were talking about love. You're living a lie if you're saying to
:53:42. > :53:52.someone in the sexual act, "I'm giving 100% of myself," when you're
:53:52. > :54:00.not. Dr Meg Barker is a relationship therapist. Deceit is
:54:00. > :54:09.wrong, so therefore surely affairs are wrong? Hello. Yes, it's the
:54:09. > :54:18.deceit that troubles me and it's the seeing of people struggling
:54:18. > :54:23.with the sense of betrayal and hurt afterwards that affects me.
:54:23. > :54:31.I think research has found that people often assume they have the
:54:31. > :54:37.same rules of monogamy in a relationship and find out later
:54:37. > :54:45.they don't. For example, one person might think it's possible to have a
:54:45. > :54:51.friendship with an expartner and the other doesn't. So there are
:54:51. > :54:56.many situations across the board. Really, it's about encouraging
:54:56. > :55:01.communication at the start of the relationship, whatever kind of
:55:02. > :55:06.relationship it is. Surely, if you're having a secret affair and
:55:06. > :55:12.you're found out if that hurts somebody it's wrong. If the person
:55:12. > :55:16.who finds out is hurt it has to be wrong. If anyone went out and got
:55:16. > :55:22.laid whenever they felt like do it, it would destroy family life in
:55:22. > :55:28.this country at a stroke. Surely this is about cashing in for you.
:55:28. > :55:34.You're making money from this? are a business. I don't shy away
:55:34. > :55:41.from that, but people are coming to us. But it doesn't necessarily help
:55:41. > :55:46.their relationship? I think society is dictated by our own rules. We
:55:46. > :55:51.are not naturally anything other than monogamous, but history shows
:55:51. > :55:56.we used to live in tribes where we had lots of lovers all the time and
:55:57. > :56:03.we shared childcare and sex and there were no rules around who we
:56:03. > :56:08.slept with. Now, that's a long time ago, but it shows that human beings
:56:08. > :56:15.as a species are not naturally monogamous. Thank you very much. We
:56:15. > :56:22.have to leave it there. Your results are in:
:56:22. > :56:28.67% of you who voted said yes and 33% said no.
:56:28. > :56:33.That's interesting. 67% of the audience watching this say tougher
:56:33. > :56:37.regulation, Carole. I'm not surprised at that vote but I think
:56:37. > :56:43.people should be scared if the regulations get tougher. Most of
:56:43. > :56:46.the people who have voted have known nothing but a free press all
:56:46. > :56:51.their lives. I fear they should be very scared if the Government
:56:51. > :56:57.passes rules. What should they be afraid of. Restriction of the
:56:57. > :57:02.freedom of press is not good. I agree with that, but I think the
:57:02. > :57:05.readship should dictate. But the audience are so shocked by the
:57:05. > :57:09.phone hacking. That's illegal, that's nothing to do with it.
:57:09. > :57:14.that's not going to happen again. In terms of regulation that's
:57:14. > :57:19.stopped and finished. That will never happen again. But you try and
:57:19. > :57:25.muzzle the press in the way it has been tried this week. People might
:57:25. > :57:29.not like to see the photos, but if they're out there, her they should
:57:29. > :57:35.be there. And millions of people are buying the papers every day on
:57:35. > :57:40.the stories of sleaze. That's true. What do you think? Personally, I
:57:40. > :57:46.think it's to do with the fact that we have a celebrity-focused culture
:57:46. > :57:52.in this country, that the press isn't covering what is happening.
:57:52. > :57:58.I'm really not interested in Prince Harry being naked in this private
:57:58. > :58:02.place, rather than any more legislation I'd see a move
:58:02. > :58:07.towards...Quickly, Should they have printed them? I think so yes.
:58:07. > :58:12.should be free to do what they want. O oh, no, no. Thank you very much
:58:12. > :58:18.for all your thoughts. Many thanks to all of you have who taken part
:58:18. > :58:23.today. To our guests and the viewers. Don't text or call the