:00:06. > :00:11.A million children are growing up in Britain today with no contact
:00:11. > :00:21.from their fathers, but the head of the Catholic Church in England and
:00:21. > :00:21.
:00:21. > :00:31.Wales says fathers are important role models and cold their rolls a
:00:31. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:48.pressure gift. Good morning. Welcome to a new
:00:48. > :00:52.series of Sunday Morning Live. Parts of the UK are becoming man
:00:52. > :00:57.deserts according to the Centre for Social Justice think-tank who point
:00:57. > :01:02.to the growth of single mother families and the shortage of male
:01:02. > :01:07.primary school school teachers as the cause. Are fathers essential or
:01:07. > :01:11.an optional extra? Here is what one mother thinks. My daughter is happy
:01:11. > :01:15.and setled and most single mums would say the same about their kids.
:01:15. > :01:19.Next week the governing body of the Church of England meets and once
:01:19. > :01:27.again women bishops are high on the agenda. One retired bishop feels
:01:27. > :01:35.the church is being held to ransom by a minority opposed to change.
:01:35. > :01:40.the church is not to self-destruct if it must not oppose its
:01:40. > :01:45.prejudices. We examine Nelson Mandela's legacy,
:01:45. > :01:48.forgiveness, but is it always right to forgive? My guests this week are
:01:48. > :01:54.Peter Hitchens, a columnist for the Mail on Sunday and a former atheist
:01:54. > :02:02.who is now a member of the Church of England. Stephen low, now
:02:02. > :02:07.retired, was the Bishop of Hume. And Bonnie Greer, a playwright and
:02:07. > :02:11.novelist, she's lived in the UK since 1986, she is chancellor of
:02:11. > :02:15.Kingston University and once played Joan of Arc on stage in Paris. We
:02:15. > :02:25.want to know what you think. If you have a web cam, join us via Skype
:02:25. > :02:36.
:02:36. > :02:40.and give your views on Twitter or A report by the Centre for Social
:02:40. > :02:43.Justice says lone parent families are increasing at the rate of
:02:43. > :02:47.20,000 a year and will total more than two million by the time of the
:02:47. > :02:51.next general election. The vast majority are single mothers. At the
:02:51. > :02:55.same time, the Archbishop of Westminster and the Pope have both
:02:56. > :02:59.praised the roles of fathers when it comes to child development. Are
:02:59. > :03:05.fathers under valued figures or can children gain just as much when
:03:05. > :03:09.raised by a single mother? Sally has been dealing with the
:03:09. > :03:15.realities of life as a single mum since she and her husband part
:03:15. > :03:19.indeed 2007. She has been able to maintain a good relationship with
:03:19. > :03:22.her ex-husband who has regular contact with his seven-year-old
:03:22. > :03:25.daughter. From our experience my daughter doesn't see her dad every
:03:25. > :03:29.day and while that would have been lovely, I think what has been
:03:29. > :03:33.important and what is vital is she has lots of people around her who
:03:33. > :03:38.care, who spend quality time with her and who she loves spending time
:03:38. > :03:45.with. She is happy, settled, she's confident. I think most single mums
:03:45. > :03:49.would say the same about their kids. The report says children that have
:03:49. > :03:59.separated single or step parents are 50% more likely to fail
:03:59. > :04:00.
:04:00. > :04:04.academically, or struggle socially. I don't think the problem here is
:04:04. > :04:08.about being single or being married. It is about the challenges that
:04:08. > :04:13.some of the single mums are experiencing. Sally also runs a
:04:13. > :04:17.blog about parenting for a group of UK parent bloggers. This means she
:04:17. > :04:21.talks to parents from all sorts of different backgrounds every day.
:04:21. > :04:25.She feels there is a growing frustration at the way single mums
:04:25. > :04:28.are portrayed. You would think that single mum is somebody in their
:04:28. > :04:35.teens who has had a baby to get a council flat and now is on benefits
:04:35. > :04:40.and might have another baby to get a new tele. Lots of single mums
:04:40. > :04:44.want to work or are working or in education and it is edcredably hard.
:04:44. > :04:48.One of the concerns the report raises is that many children also
:04:48. > :04:55.lack male role models because of the shortage of men teachers in
:04:55. > :04:59.primary schools. You would have to work hard to put your child in a
:04:59. > :05:04.man desert. There are uncles and grandfathers. It is funny the idea
:05:04. > :05:08.that you could raise a child and have them not meet 50% of the
:05:08. > :05:13.population. Are fathers actually as important as the report, and many
:05:13. > :05:17.religious and political leaders, would have us believe or is it just
:05:17. > :05:25.fashionable to stigmatise single mums trying to do their best for
:05:25. > :05:29.for their children? Peter she suggests it is about
:05:29. > :05:35.stigmatise them. Virtue is learned by example and a lot of children
:05:35. > :05:40.are not learning that men are capable of constantcy, Fidelity,
:05:40. > :05:43.hard work or of restraint or responsibility. They simply aren't
:05:43. > :05:48.seeing t so girls and boys are growing up without any idea that
:05:48. > :05:52.this is the case. Unsurprisingly, our society is affected by that, if
:05:52. > :06:02.people think it can't be done they don't do it and don't expect it.
:06:02. > :06:07.
:06:07. > :06:17.That is the question for our text Results will be announced at the
:06:17. > :06:19.
:06:19. > :06:22.end of the show. There is a lively debate online.
:06:22. > :06:25.Bonnie, there is all this research which is showing there is a
:06:25. > :06:30.connection between single parenthood overwhelmingly mothers
:06:30. > :06:34.and the fact fact thairn children don't go on to do well in life.
:06:34. > :06:37.This is a complex question. I grew up in a tradition of family. My
:06:37. > :06:42.father was with us at home and stayed married to my mother until
:06:42. > :06:46.his death. They were married for almost 50 years and I benefited by
:06:46. > :06:50.knowing by father. I benefited by him being there. But it is not some
:06:50. > :06:56.sort of generic benefit. I benefited because of his
:06:56. > :07:01.personality and who he was. But we do know that fatherhood is a recent
:07:01. > :07:07.invention, in the human society we... How do you meanGoing all the
:07:07. > :07:10.way back in the millions of years of our species it took a long time
:07:10. > :07:17.for people to were connected with birth. We didn't learn that until
:07:18. > :07:21.the age of farming and so forth so it is a recent invention. It is a
:07:21. > :07:26.social construct for fatherhood? is totally that, that is not to
:07:26. > :07:31.denigrate t but I don't think we should mystify t because fatherhood.
:07:31. > :07:36.This is where we bring in Stephen Lowe. I am not sure I agree with
:07:36. > :07:42.Bonnie on that. I do think - I don't want to stigmatise a single
:07:42. > :07:45.parent, be it or even gay parents, I don't want to stigmatise them
:07:45. > :07:49.because they are involved in a single sex relationship with
:07:49. > :07:56.children, but I do think fathers do bring something important, as
:07:56. > :08:00.Bonnie has said, to a relationship, which is an important part of a a
:08:00. > :08:05.child's flourishing. I think the loss of that role is a loss to a
:08:05. > :08:10.family, whereas I think even that single parent we heard just now
:08:10. > :08:15.acknowledged that they do need male figures in their life. I am not
:08:15. > :08:19.saying that. I am saying the idea of father we talk about now is a
:08:19. > :08:23.couple of hundred-years-old construct that dads were there,
:08:23. > :08:27.they took care of their children. Isn't it better I don't know what
:08:27. > :08:30.it is like not to have a dad. But we have to separate out the
:08:30. > :08:35.mistification of fatherhood and the fact that it is good to have a dad.
:08:35. > :08:39.I empathise with men who want to be fathers, I really support them, but
:08:39. > :08:45.let's not mystify father. Mother Mother hood is the essential
:08:45. > :08:51.connection humans have. Can we shift away from the suggestion that
:08:51. > :08:54.this is about stigmatising single parents. It is nothing to do with
:08:54. > :08:57.that. Single patients made a rational choice given the social
:08:57. > :09:00.attitudes of our society and tax and benefits system which
:09:00. > :09:04.encourages the formation of fatherless families, it is nothing
:09:04. > :09:10.to do with them as individuals. What we are addressing is the way
:09:10. > :09:17.in which politicians and parliaments since the late 60s has
:09:17. > :09:20.encouraged this form of family. We find the whole point of the Centre
:09:20. > :09:25.for Social Justice report is that this has been a failure. Why is it
:09:25. > :09:29.having experienced this enormous failure and round the results are
:09:29. > :09:34.in many cases worse than they would have been, we don't do anything
:09:34. > :09:38.about it. It is diverted into you are attacking single mothers. I am
:09:38. > :09:43.not attacking single mothers. me go back to what Peter is saying,
:09:43. > :09:46.governments made decisions about not defining families. It didn't
:09:46. > :09:50.say you are family because you have a daddy and mummy. It said you are
:09:50. > :09:55.a family if you have a child. The child is what we are going to focus
:09:55. > :10:02.on. Of course I agree, it hasn't been perfect, it's decayed it needs
:10:02. > :10:08.to be looked at. But governments decided to focus on children and
:10:08. > :10:12.not defining families. It is worse for children, the victims of this
:10:12. > :10:16.great experiment in which a lot of adults have had a great deal of fun,
:10:16. > :10:21.have been the children. The the worsiness of it has to do with the
:10:21. > :10:27.fact in our society machine make more money. Men are able to do more
:10:27. > :10:35.things than women. If women had job equality, first of all, it does
:10:35. > :10:39.begin with Monday. -- money. have to be very careful about
:10:39. > :10:44.saying that politicians have created single parent families. It
:10:44. > :10:50.is very often the violence of men that have created single parent
:10:50. > :10:56.families and that is an important factor in many breakdowns. Many of
:10:56. > :10:59.those men have not had good fathering themselves. That is one
:10:59. > :11:03.of the things I would disagree with Bonnie about. It is important that
:11:03. > :11:08.people like you, and you said it, your father provided you with a
:11:08. > :11:12.good model of what a good father was, and we need more of that.
:11:12. > :11:18.do, but I am not going to say because of woman chooses to raise
:11:18. > :11:22.her child without the father of that child, that somehow enately
:11:22. > :11:28.that is going to be a bad thing. That child is going to be rue I had.
:11:28. > :11:31.We have a President of the United States whose father was not there.
:11:31. > :11:35.Isn't it better that there should be both parents there rather than
:11:35. > :11:40.saying it is a bad thing. It is better in a society where that is
:11:40. > :11:46.rewarded, not genrically, not enately. That is my argument.
:11:46. > :11:50.interesting the way I find myself being more religious than bishops.
:11:50. > :11:56.Isn't it something the church believes strongly in, that parents
:11:57. > :12:04.of children should be married. And the whole basis of this is actually
:12:04. > :12:13.the divorce law reforms and made marriage less central. It is easier
:12:13. > :12:18.to get out of a marriage than a car leasing agreement.
:12:18. > :12:21.David, there's two interesting aspects to this, one is how far, or
:12:21. > :12:26.living proof you don't need to have had a father to have grown up
:12:26. > :12:33.successfully, but also how far marriage is the issue rather than
:12:33. > :12:37.whether two parents are the issue. I was very lucky, I grew up in a
:12:37. > :12:42.tough inner city environment. I went to a boarding school, I got a
:12:42. > :12:46.scholarship, it was a Billy Elliot moment, I had uncles and an older
:12:46. > :12:49.brother 14-years-older and I had some great male teachers. But it
:12:50. > :12:54.does seem to me the issue is not about marriage, it is about
:12:54. > :12:59.fatherhood. If you are old old enough to become a father, then
:12:59. > :13:04.that is something that most continue throughout life. Whether
:13:04. > :13:07.your relationship breaks up or not, you need a relationship with the
:13:07. > :13:12.child assuming there isn't domestic violence. I do think the emphasis
:13:12. > :13:15.should be on fatherhood, because we know that the tendency towards
:13:15. > :13:19.criminality, the outcomes in relationship to poverty for
:13:19. > :13:24.children without that stable father relationship, is absolutely
:13:24. > :13:29.fundamental and is going up in our society. The ingenius method we
:13:29. > :13:32.developed and worked over century for making sure fathers did stick
:13:32. > :13:37.around with the children of the women with whom they lived, is
:13:37. > :13:41.called marriage. By Abandoning marriage we have made it almost
:13:41. > :13:51.certain that many fathers will disappear at crucial points in
:13:51. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :13:59.those children's lives. I married and I believe in mairning but I
:13:59. > :14:04.recognise in 2013 there are couples who are co-habiting, they are
:14:04. > :14:08.relationships that breakdown and there are relationships in children
:14:08. > :14:18.who are born by virtue of casual sex. In those circumstances I place
:14:18. > :14:21.
:14:21. > :14:25.my my emphasis on father hoofed, on staying corrected. David, thank you.
:14:25. > :14:29.There are many fathers who want to father and many obstacles in our
:14:29. > :14:33.society, including maternity wards, children's centres and schools that
:14:33. > :14:38.almost are hostile to those often young fathers being engaged. That
:14:38. > :14:42.is very interesting. Let's go back to that, because it
:14:42. > :14:46.is young fathers who want to be dads who want to be fathers, who
:14:46. > :14:52.want to be engaged and I encourage that should happen and that's going
:14:52. > :14:56.to take a shift in the way the families is looked at. But the
:14:56. > :14:59.Labour government, new Labour decided it was going to be children
:14:59. > :15:04.it was going to focus on. It was not going to define what a family
:15:04. > :15:14.was. I think that, that to me is important. Children are the most
:15:14. > :15:14.
:15:14. > :15:18.important. It took marriage out of the equation. Officials documents
:15:18. > :15:23.under new Labour remove the word husband from official documents, it
:15:23. > :15:28.is no there any more. It is not true they took marriage out of the
:15:28. > :15:31.occasion. Fatherhood remains, everything David said, a very
:15:31. > :15:36.important part of the flourishing of a child and one of the things
:15:36. > :15:42.our system does now is sometimes impose prejudices against fathers,
:15:42. > :15:45.exercising their responsibilities, and I am not saying that I support
:15:45. > :15:49.Fathers 4 Justice and so on, but there are issues about the way in
:15:49. > :15:52.which our courts still continue to treat fathers and keep them out
:15:52. > :15:58.very often of the proper contact they should have and want with
:15:58. > :16:02.their children. This is a big issue for many viewers from home. A
:16:02. > :16:08.couple of comments now. This is Bob, it is not about motherhood or
:16:08. > :16:11.fatherhood but adults to provide nour I shallment and security.
:16:11. > :16:16.Another says families need fathers. Evil is done to fathers and their
:16:16. > :16:22.children by wrong assumptions of professionals.
:16:22. > :16:26.Another one, calling fathemother families families traditional is
:16:26. > :16:32.old-fashioned. We have one more I would like to
:16:32. > :16:36.bring in on web cam. Sally, we saw your film earlier. You can see
:16:36. > :16:41.people feel passionately that you are doing really well, but having a
:16:41. > :16:44.dad around would be better. I think to be honest talking about it in
:16:44. > :16:48.those terms, the horse has bolted for lots and lots of families in
:16:48. > :16:52.the UK, there isn't a married father. Rather than just
:16:52. > :16:56.discounting that and writing off people like my daughter or saying
:16:56. > :17:00.that somehow I am not a family because I am not married, that's
:17:00. > :17:05.just, it's pointless. You are missing a massive opportunity to
:17:05. > :17:08.help support those families and help encourage those. I personally
:17:08. > :17:12.feel very demoralised seeing all of this coverage about single mothers
:17:12. > :17:15.and how I have made the wrong choice and therefore that is now
:17:15. > :17:20.determined by daughter's future. I don't think that is what counts. It
:17:20. > :17:26.is about my daughter is in a love, supportive, family with lots of
:17:27. > :17:29.male role models, including her dad. Nobody is making these assumptions.
:17:29. > :17:34.Nobody has said these things. What we are discussing here is public
:17:34. > :17:37.policy. 50 years ago, there was a strong pressure for a change in the
:17:37. > :17:46.marriage laws so they would be weakened and the idea of life-long
:17:46. > :17:49.marriage would be God rid of. -- got rid of. Now we see the
:17:49. > :17:53.measurable results of this. The report measures the results. They
:17:53. > :17:57.have been disastrous. Wouldn't it be the rational, sane thing for
:17:57. > :18:04.society to do to go back to the mistake it made and say actually we
:18:04. > :18:11.got this wrong, we need to reform it. You cannot have a society where
:18:11. > :18:14.one way or another men are abusing women and women having to withdraw
:18:14. > :18:19.from married relationship and say we have to keep them together with
:18:19. > :18:29.a dores law which is rigorous and prevents people separating when
:18:29. > :18:29.
:18:29. > :18:34.there is that abusive relationship. A woman raising a child has always
:18:34. > :18:41.been the way it was. It is only recently that men have been
:18:41. > :18:45.involved with children. So to make it some sort of mystical thing...
:18:45. > :18:50.Joseph was involved with Jesus. That was a couple of thousand years
:18:50. > :18:55.ago. You were raised by a single parent and your parent chose to
:18:55. > :18:59.have you on her own, she chose donor conception. Do you feel you
:18:59. > :19:06.have missed out, you have nefeded a father? Not at all. Naturally I
:19:06. > :19:15.have always been curious about my donor, I never felt at a
:19:15. > :19:24.disadvantage being raised by a single parent. I understand that no
:19:24. > :19:29.family situation is perfect. My mum did the best she could in difficult
:19:29. > :19:35.circumstances, as do many single mothers who are stigmatised because
:19:35. > :19:39.their family doesn't fit into the structure.
:19:39. > :19:43.If we separate off abusive relationship, and the idea that the
:19:44. > :19:47.state has made single motherhood more attractive, isn't there an
:19:47. > :19:51.issue about man manhood here, men are putting off marriage, I know of
:19:51. > :19:55.women who say I have to have a kid on my own or they will never never
:19:55. > :20:02.have a kid. Marriage is very unattractive now to men, there is
:20:02. > :20:06.almost no point in in them getting married. They take on a legal
:20:06. > :20:16.commitment and if they get divorced they will usually lose the custody
:20:16. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:21.of the children and also the family. There are millions of families
:20:21. > :20:26.functioning with good fathers in loving relationships. Let's not
:20:26. > :20:30.paint a picture of a world where it's all made up of single parents
:20:30. > :20:34.or men who are feeling very angry. Read the report. I have read the
:20:34. > :20:37.report. We will end the discussion there, but that is a good place to
:20:37. > :20:44.end it. Thank you to everybody. We know it is a big topic of the day.
:20:44. > :20:54.Our poll is open. Do vote. Is You can only vote once. If you
:20:54. > :20:55.
:20:55. > :21:05.think families do need fathers text You have 20 minutes before the poll
:21:05. > :21:07.Next week the General Synod the ruling body of the Church of
:21:07. > :21:11.England meets and high on the agenda is what many see as the
:21:11. > :21:15.biggest challenge facing the church today. The on going dispute over
:21:15. > :21:21.allowing women bishops. Traditionalists feel the fabric of
:21:22. > :21:26.church and gospel is being eroded. Others feel the church is lagging
:21:26. > :21:32.woefully behind the times and that its very survival is at stake. This
:21:32. > :21:38.is his Sunday Stand. If I was in my 20s now, I couldn't
:21:38. > :21:42.ever see a reason for my setting foot in a building like this. The
:21:42. > :21:47.church I have given the best part of my life to is killing the gospel
:21:47. > :21:55.of Jesus Christ that I passionately believe. It is a gospel that speaks
:21:55. > :21:58.of love, acceptance, and a welcome to all. The church continues to
:21:58. > :22:04.discriminate against women, by refusing them the opportunity to
:22:04. > :22:10.join the leadership of the church as bishops. Gay and lesbians are
:22:10. > :22:14.told their lifestyle is not welcome. This is not reflective of the tor
:22:14. > :22:18.nt society in which we live. If the church is not to self-destruct,
:22:18. > :22:24.then it must reflect that torrent society and not impose its
:22:24. > :22:29.prejudices upon it. My church, is either to change or
:22:29. > :22:33.die. It has to become more tolerant and change with society.
:22:33. > :22:40.Otherwise what's the point of being left with empty churches and a few
:22:40. > :22:46.old bigots sat in the pews. The views of Stephen low. Do you
:22:46. > :22:50.agree or disagree. You can join in at home on Twitter or e-mail. I am
:22:50. > :22:53.going to have to start with you, because you do go to the Church of
:22:53. > :23:02.England, but are you in danger of being one of those bigots who is
:23:02. > :23:08.going to help it die. Why didn't the bishop take up social work.
:23:08. > :23:14.Because I I believe in the love of Jesus Christ. Good for you. Your
:23:14. > :23:21.view of it is your view and mine is mine. Which of us is right we will
:23:21. > :23:25.find out later. But I don't think it is necessarily the case that
:23:25. > :23:28.someone should - put it like this, that if the church maries the
:23:28. > :23:32.spirit of the age it will pretty quickly find itself widowed. The
:23:32. > :23:35.spirit of the age is exactly what the church is not going to be
:23:35. > :23:44.fought. To pursue the fashions of the time, it is exactly what
:23:44. > :23:48.churches are not supposed to do. If has to stand for eternal verities.
:23:48. > :23:54.Jesus Christ spent his time with outsiders, the people rejected in
:23:54. > :23:58.society. He preached a gospel of love, tolerance and acceptance. He
:23:58. > :24:02.preached a gospel about justice. We are in a situation at the moment
:24:02. > :24:06.where the church discriminates against women, it discriminates
:24:06. > :24:11.against gay and lesbian people. As a result in a society which largely
:24:11. > :24:14.has become more loving and toll tolerant towards these groups, the
:24:14. > :24:18.church is out of step and losing relevance to those under the age of
:24:18. > :24:24.30, around those issues. Christianity is the biggest
:24:24. > :24:29.globalisation project that ever was in the history of human kind. As a
:24:29. > :24:33.Roman Catholic, I know that what Christians did was a roll up into a
:24:33. > :24:42.community. There would be a Goddess up there and the priest would say,
:24:42. > :24:49.keep her there, not like Islam that says get rid of statue, but
:24:49. > :24:53.Catholics say keep her there, and call her saint Mary of the whatever.
:24:53. > :24:57.Christianity's definition is change. 600 years ago if you were to say
:24:57. > :25:02.the word Christian, you would be like me a Roman Catholic, there
:25:02. > :25:07.wasn't anything else. Christianity splits, it changes, and to go
:25:07. > :25:15.back... The Catholic Church's attitude to women is arguably more
:25:15. > :25:18.conservative. I am talking about Christianity, the flew which hadity
:25:18. > :25:28.is built into T Its Church of England is arguing
:25:28. > :25:46.
:25:46. > :25:50.over whether to allow a woman boss misrepresented. The Church of
:25:51. > :25:57.England has been modernising, frantically, like a dancing dad at
:25:57. > :26:05.a disco, for 50 years. You were founded by a king who decided he
:26:05. > :26:10.was going to break away. Just a minute Peter, you have made a point
:26:10. > :26:19.about that. The church has been modernising for 50 years, it has
:26:19. > :26:23.been losing the congregation. church is not modernising, it is
:26:23. > :26:30.trying to preach the Christian gospel to a modern society and
:26:30. > :26:36.culture. We got rid of slavery, which was part of the teaching
:26:36. > :26:45.within the new New Testament. We have to recognise that the
:26:45. > :26:49.Christian gospel has to address the It always has. I want to bring in
:26:49. > :26:52.Suzy, who is a lay member of the General Synod. My understanding is
:26:52. > :26:58.you are you are against women bishops and you are one of those
:26:58. > :27:04.people who is holding the church to ransom perhaps when it needs to
:27:04. > :27:08.modernise or it won't flourish. is sad to think that the churches
:27:08. > :27:12.which have a third of their congregation its under the age of
:27:12. > :27:17.30 are the ones saying they want to maintain leadership within them. We
:27:17. > :27:22.are called to reflect God of the church and called to take God's
:27:22. > :27:28.word seriously. God's word is an acceptance of all people, as
:27:28. > :27:38.children of God, regardless of Christ there is neither male nor
:27:38. > :27:41.
:27:41. > :27:47.female. That is wuned of the misunderstandings. Absolutely true
:27:47. > :27:52.in salvation there is no male or female, it is true, all can come to
:27:52. > :27:57.God through Christ and that is what Paul is teaching, it is in a whole
:27:57. > :28:02.passage of how are we saved, not how do we order our churches. He
:28:02. > :28:12.also talks about in the church and family we need male male
:28:12. > :28:16.
:28:16. > :28:21.responsibility and female submission. Female submission!
:28:21. > :28:25.Peter says sectarian rubbish, it is not sectarian rub rish the the
:28:25. > :28:30.change is a modernisation project. I am not a practising Catholic but
:28:30. > :28:34.I am saying to mystify this, to make this into an idea that goes
:28:34. > :28:40.back thousands of years, it is not true about Christianity. Something
:28:40. > :28:46.the bishop said about how Christ mixed with and met the wrong-doers
:28:46. > :28:53.and sinners in society, it is true, and St Matthew, whose gospel we
:28:53. > :28:56.still read was one of them. And saint Mary mag delain. He said to
:28:56. > :29:00.them stop doing those things, go and sin no more. The fact he went
:29:00. > :29:05.and spoke to them and mixed with them didn't mean he approved of
:29:05. > :29:09.what they did. There seems to be the attitude that is now being put
:29:09. > :29:13.forward is somehow the church by accepting the existence of wrong-
:29:13. > :29:21.doers accepts their sins as well. The church is not a social work
:29:21. > :29:27.body. It says some things are wrong. You should know that. I don't
:29:27. > :29:31.accept that any way shape or form. Vicky joins us. I remember when
:29:31. > :29:37.women priests were first approved in the Church of England 20 years
:29:37. > :29:42.ago. Have you thought about being a priest? I have, my work means I
:29:42. > :29:47.have actually clocked up more years of study than it would take to
:29:47. > :29:52.become a priest. So lots of people ask why I haven't become ordained
:29:52. > :29:56.and for me it is partly about the church's attitude to women. It is
:29:56. > :30:01.such a foundational element of the gospel. I don't think it is about
:30:01. > :30:05.the modernisation of the church. I was reading Peter's piece in the
:30:05. > :30:09.Mail about how those arguing for women bishops are watering down the
:30:09. > :30:14.gospel and chasing culture. For me it is about stripping off that
:30:14. > :30:20.culture. For me the culture we are talking about is the patriarchal
:30:20. > :30:25.culture. I would see women bishops would be a return to the original
:30:25. > :30:31.church. I want the church to return to its original essence N that
:30:31. > :30:35.sense Peter is the reformer and I am not. I didn't say what I have
:30:35. > :30:38.been alleged to have said. I am in favour of women bishops, I have no
:30:38. > :30:44.problem with them at all. My problem is how those who don't
:30:44. > :30:47.agree with it should be treated. They should be tolerated as people
:30:47. > :30:54.with strong views which should be accepted. That is all that argument
:30:54. > :31:01.was about. It is much, much more. The Church of England is
:31:01. > :31:06.practically run by women. The idea it has some hostility towards women
:31:06. > :31:11.is rubbish. The attitude to women in the church and the fact they are
:31:11. > :31:16.not allowed to key roles of leadership is the issue. They could
:31:16. > :31:22.have been bishops year ago, f the pro-women bishops faction had been
:31:22. > :31:26.more tolerant. That is the issue and that is why Christianity for me
:31:26. > :31:32.is inconsistent. You saying that God made two teeres of humanity, it
:31:32. > :31:40.doesn't make sense. There has been an interesting distinction, whereas
:31:40. > :31:44.an overwhelming feeling that the the the church should change that,
:31:44. > :31:49.the attitudes have have only changed in the last few decades.
:31:49. > :31:53.I think the church has lost an opportunity. We should have
:31:53. > :31:57.supported civil partnerships more effectively five, ten years ago
:31:57. > :32:01.when they were going through. The nonsense now that the bishops and
:32:01. > :32:04.archbishops are saying yes to civil partnerships, this is better than
:32:04. > :32:07.gay marriage for the church but we are not prepared to bless them in
:32:07. > :32:11.churches, we are not going to provide lit jis for people who want
:32:11. > :32:14.to celebrate their partnership within the life of the church, I
:32:14. > :32:18.find astonishing. The decision next weekend to actually put off a
:32:18. > :32:22.debate about this is frankly cowardly by the Church of England
:32:22. > :32:25.and disgraceful. I am interested in the fact that these are people who
:32:25. > :32:29.say they are Christians. You feel that they don't belong in the
:32:29. > :32:35.Church of England if they want to have a gay marriage? No, I am a
:32:35. > :32:43.broad church person. Anybody who believes in God and particularly in
:32:43. > :32:47.the Christian gospel should be part of our church. The difficulty is,
:32:47. > :32:52.that those who want women bishops want to have total victory over
:32:52. > :32:59.those who oppose them. That is not true. It is absolutely true. In all
:32:59. > :33:02.conscience, there are people, I don't agree with them, some Roman
:33:02. > :33:08.Catholics, they can't accept the idea that women should be bishops.
:33:08. > :33:18.They should have a corner left in which they can continue, they are
:33:18. > :33:18.
:33:18. > :33:22.not being allowed it. Can I bring in one other other contributor.
:33:22. > :33:25.I gather that you are very keen on bringing young people into the
:33:25. > :33:29.church. What do you make of the argument that the church needs to
:33:29. > :33:35.move with the times, needs to be more tolerant of the status of
:33:35. > :33:40.women and homosexuality, too. think it is very much dependent on
:33:40. > :33:45.people's concepts of modernisation. If that means to be depart from
:33:45. > :33:50.your defining values, if it means to depart from the truth of
:33:50. > :33:56.scripture, if it means to reinterpret scripture and redefine
:33:57. > :34:02.the substance of who we are, I wouldn't believe in modernisation.
:34:02. > :34:07.I am looking for certainty, people are looking for awe then tisity and
:34:07. > :34:14.so when Christians begin to reinterpret and redefine the text
:34:14. > :34:18.of scripture which they are able to access freely, it suggests of being
:34:19. > :34:28.self-contradictory. There are ways the church can move forward and be
:34:29. > :34:31.
:34:31. > :34:36.engaging without having to be bib kally unfaithly. Christian has been
:34:36. > :34:43.successful because it is able to change, as oppose today other
:34:43. > :34:46.religions, it can accommodate you. Will women be able to participate
:34:47. > :34:52.in the full life of the church. We will have to leave it there.
:34:52. > :34:55.Thank you to all our contributors. Later on Sunday morning Live,
:34:55. > :34:59.forgiveness is part of the doctrine of many of the world's great
:34:59. > :35:09.religions but is it always right to forgive? Remember, you can keep
:35:09. > :35:15.
:35:15. > :35:25.voting in our text poll, do Remember, you can only vote once
:35:25. > :35:25.
:35:25. > :35:29.and you have about five minutes It is time for our moral moments
:35:29. > :35:37.where we look at some of the big stories of the week. We are going
:35:37. > :35:41.to look first at the story three person IVF. Pioneered in London and
:35:41. > :35:45.promoted by... It is a very exciting development in terms of
:35:45. > :35:48.providing the opportunity for people who have maybe genetically
:35:48. > :35:52.lines within them which would produce illnesses within their
:35:52. > :35:56.children, and this is a way of actually enabling them to have
:35:56. > :36:01.children without those genetic problems. All I would say is,
:36:01. > :36:04.although I welcome this move, it is something we have to keep our eyes
:36:04. > :36:10.on, because there is always within the whole scientific community a
:36:10. > :36:13.desire to move things on bit by bit by bit. The bottom of this is the
:36:13. > :36:19.designer baby concept and the public needs a sense of confidence
:36:19. > :36:24.in a system that will be able to manage this particular flow of the
:36:24. > :36:34.scientific world in a way which prevents that sort of manipulation
:36:34. > :36:39.of the human gene to produce the designer baby who is the footballer.
:36:39. > :36:43.We ininsurance, our politicians have got a hold on this and able to
:36:43. > :36:51.manage that does not happen. already have three-parent families,
:36:51. > :36:54.you can have a surrogate taking a donor egg. We have these
:36:54. > :36:59.magnificent brains, it's beautiful this has happened and I hope it
:36:59. > :37:03.goes as far as it can, because we are defining humanity. If we can
:37:03. > :37:07.create human beings who are free from suffering, free from lives of
:37:07. > :37:11.pain, why shouldn't we do that. We have to do that, because that is
:37:11. > :37:15.the goal of science. To make it possible for us to live on this
:37:15. > :37:21.earth. Do you see a difference between a choice of having a baby,
:37:21. > :37:28.the situations in India where women are paid and this about preventing
:37:28. > :37:32.terrible conditions. I am told there are terrible things that can
:37:32. > :37:36.be avoided and I can't help feeling there are other implications of
:37:36. > :37:40.this we are not exploring. We don't really know what the end of this
:37:40. > :37:44.would be. It does involve the destruction of what I regard as a
:37:44. > :37:48.life and that is a very dangerous thing to start licensing. The other
:37:48. > :37:53.story you have chosen is that of magistrate Yvonne Davies, who gave
:37:53. > :37:57.a personal opinion in a judgment in a cannabis sentencing case and has
:37:57. > :38:01.stepped down. Stepped down under pressure. She was reprimanded by
:38:01. > :38:05.the Lord Chief Justice and Secretary of State for justice.
:38:05. > :38:09.seems to be astonishing but very telling that in this country
:38:09. > :38:12.officially cannabis is against the law, it is illegal to possess it,
:38:12. > :38:16.to grow and sell it. But a magistrate who tells somebody who
:38:16. > :38:21.has been convicted of farming cannabis she feels that he would be
:38:21. > :38:26.advised to steer clear of t because of her own brother's terrible
:38:26. > :38:29.experience after smoking can cannabis, how can it possibly be
:38:29. > :38:34.that this is wrong. I think it is a very, very important discovery for
:38:34. > :38:39.those of us who think we have a serious criminal justice system,
:38:39. > :38:45.that a magistrate doing her job, giving somebody good advice based
:38:45. > :38:50.on herb own hard experience is rebry manneded? There is an
:38:50. > :38:55.argument made there is a pro- cannabis soft drug lobby. In a
:38:55. > :38:58.secular society the people who dispense our justice have no
:38:58. > :39:02.business telling us about her life is about. It didn't matter. What
:39:02. > :39:06.matter was the law. The fact she decides to tell us her story, which
:39:06. > :39:10.is a horrible story, was out of order. She shouldn't be on the
:39:10. > :39:13.bench. I agree with that. I think the the magistrate stepped beyond
:39:13. > :39:18.the responsibility she had been given by the state to exercise the
:39:18. > :39:22.law, by using her own personal judgment and personal opinion about
:39:22. > :39:27.that. Once we go into that role, we shall have judges and magistrates
:39:27. > :39:33.putting their own personal stories this their judgements, and we don't
:39:33. > :39:36.need it. Judges are always commenting. Not from personal
:39:37. > :39:40.experiences joo. There is no suggestion that the conduct of the
:39:40. > :39:48.case was any way improper. There is no suggestion there was any
:39:48. > :39:51.prejudice. Purely after the conviction of sentence she
:39:51. > :39:56.expressed an opinion which technically is the opinion of the
:39:56. > :40:01.law. No place in court.You wouldn't say that if the matter
:40:01. > :40:10.were reversed. It is prejudiced on your part. It is not prejudiced on
:40:10. > :40:13.my part. We have another discuss to You have been voting in the text
:40:13. > :40:23.poll this morning. Do Do families need fathers. The poll is closing
:40:23. > :40:26.
:40:26. > :40:29.now, so don't text as your vote This week relatives of Nelson
:40:30. > :40:34.Mandela have sat at his bedside as he remains in a critical condition.
:40:34. > :40:40.He is still a revered figure who led South Africa out of the dark
:40:40. > :40:45.days of apartheid to true demock si. He spent 27 years in prison,
:40:45. > :40:51.branded a terrorist by the regime. When she was freed his greatest
:40:51. > :40:56.weapon was not the bomb or bullet but simple forgiveness.
:40:56. > :41:00.Every day they have come to pray for and praise the man that many
:41:00. > :41:06.South Africans regard as a member of their own family. With the
:41:06. > :41:10.release of Mandela, the world changed. It was no longer possible
:41:10. > :41:14.for apartheid to rule in the old way. People don't relate to Nelson
:41:14. > :41:20.Mandela purely as a great political leader or as a liberation hero.
:41:20. > :41:23.They relate to him at a personal level. He led the nation to a new
:41:23. > :41:28.beginning, rejecting the recrimination and revenge for a
:41:28. > :41:33.doctrine of peace and reconciliation.
:41:33. > :41:38.Mandela revisited his old cell in Robin island with President Bill
:41:38. > :41:41.Clinton. But despite his years behind bars Mandela wrote "As I
:41:41. > :41:46.walked out of the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom,
:41:46. > :41:55.I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I I
:41:55. > :41:59.would still be in prison." This weekend another American
:41:59. > :42:06.President Barack Obama, is in South Africa. He paid tribute to the man
:42:06. > :42:10.he described as his hero, and a hero for the world. President Obama
:42:10. > :42:18.said his legacy will linger on throughout the ages.
:42:18. > :42:24.In many people's eyes the greatest part of that legacy is forgiveness.
:42:24. > :42:31.President Obama is visiting Robin island today. Mandela said hate has
:42:31. > :42:35.no future but is it always right to forgive. You can join in by web cam
:42:35. > :42:43.or make your point by text or online.
:42:43. > :42:48.Bonnie, this narrative, 27 years in jail, comes out and truth and
:42:48. > :42:53.recognise recognise sings. But -- reconciliation.
:42:53. > :42:56.The moral life which I think is above anything that has to do with
:42:56. > :43:01.religion, the moral life is a decision to live as a human being
:43:01. > :43:07.in spite of, and one of the highest things we can do is to forgive. It
:43:07. > :43:11.is probably the hardest thing we can do. Forgiveness only only
:43:11. > :43:16.begins with the human being but spreads into the community as an
:43:16. > :43:21.example and creates a legacy. I for one am astounded at the number of
:43:21. > :43:26.people in my life who have forgiven me and forgiven in circumstances
:43:26. > :43:31.that are very, very difficult to do. I think that forgiveness implies a
:43:31. > :43:35.desire on the part of the wrongdoing to be forgiven. I find
:43:35. > :43:39.it difficult verging on impossible to forgive somebody who doesn't
:43:39. > :43:48.want to be forgiven. There is all too much easy give away forgiveness
:43:48. > :43:51.being handed out in our society at the moment. When you are faced with
:43:51. > :43:55.somebody who has done something wrong to you, then as far as I am
:43:55. > :43:59.concerned forgiveness can only be given when it is sought. This
:43:59. > :44:05.devalued soppy type of forgiveness which seems to be common these days
:44:05. > :44:09.doesn't seem to be worth very much. Forgive us our sins as we forgive
:44:09. > :44:15.those who sin against us, is a prayer that is said by Christians
:44:15. > :44:18.hopefully every day, and to me the notion of forgiveness is central to
:44:18. > :44:22.the Christian faith. And what man Mandela offered in South Africa was
:44:22. > :44:28.a sense of reconciliation to a nation which had been split apart
:44:28. > :44:32.by hatred and division and prejudice. The notion of a rainbow
:44:32. > :44:36.nation which he brought in where people came together in peace and
:44:36. > :44:40.reconciliation which is something again that archbishop Tutu has
:44:40. > :44:44.played his part in creating that, is a model for the world about how
:44:44. > :44:48.we reself issues where we need that sense of forgiveness and even now,
:44:48. > :44:52.this programme coming from Northern Ireland, that need for forgiveness,
:44:52. > :44:57.within the communities here is a vital part of the energy which we
:44:57. > :45:00.ought to be create nothing our world. Many religions talk about
:45:00. > :45:04.forgiveness being central, but also, the example of Northern Ireland,
:45:04. > :45:09.the issue is whether you need truth with reconciliation. Perhaps what
:45:09. > :45:14.Peter is talking about, it is easy to say one should just forgive but
:45:14. > :45:19.there needs to be an honest accounting. There is too much of
:45:19. > :45:23.that word being thrown around. It has been devalued. Like love.
:45:23. > :45:28.Forgive sns an action, it isn't sitting back and saying it. It
:45:28. > :45:33.begins a process, part of that process is the sinking out of
:45:33. > :45:36.reconciliation. We must reconcile when forgiveness comes in. When a
:45:36. > :45:43.government apologises, as the Australian government has, for
:45:43. > :45:48.historical abuse of Aboriginal peoples or slavery, are those
:45:48. > :45:53.meaningless? Not always, because sometimes they have a political
:45:53. > :45:57.purpose. When the British Government apologised for the Irish
:45:57. > :46:01.famine, part of me said there is a shameful failure among a lot of
:46:01. > :46:08.English people to recognise to this day what a terrible thing that was,
:46:08. > :46:18.and it was probably worthwhile. It is the extent of recognising past
:46:18. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:25.wrongs, yes, but you can't apologise for things you didn't do.
:46:25. > :46:29.I want to bring in a couple on web cam who have been kind to join us,
:46:29. > :46:33.who have been through an experience, thank you for speaking to us. Your
:46:33. > :46:37.son was murdered by a gang of people and three men were convicted
:46:37. > :46:41.in 2001. You have heard us discussing this idea of forgiveness.
:46:41. > :46:49.Can you tell us what it was like to have that experience and how easy
:46:49. > :46:59.it was for you to forgive, because you have met one of his murderers?
:46:59. > :47:01.
:47:01. > :47:11.We met three of them. Tell us about how you came to do it? We met
:47:11. > :47:17.through a programme called called Restore To Justice. They are out of
:47:17. > :47:21.prison now. We met three of them on three different occasions.
:47:21. > :47:27.understand that one of them, he's gone to visit the grave of your son
:47:27. > :47:36.with you. You have a relationship. He said his life has changed as a
:47:36. > :47:41.result. How does that work, how do you feel about that? P Initially we
:47:41. > :47:48.wanted answers to our questions, we wanted the truth from him. We chose
:47:48. > :47:53.to forgive and forgiveness is a conscious decision. It is how you
:47:53. > :48:00.understand forgiveness. It is not saying he didn't do it, it is
:48:00. > :48:04.saying I choose to forgive you. It is not about how you feel. We
:48:04. > :48:09.remember that and we chose to forgive and it is an everyday
:48:09. > :48:14.choice. We went to the grave with him. We wanted him to come to terms
:48:14. > :48:19.with that. We wanted him to move on as well as we needed to move on,
:48:19. > :48:24.and that is why we did it. You have heard the argument that perhaps in
:48:24. > :48:27.some circumstances actually you can't forgive and if they don't
:48:27. > :48:37.seek forgiveness, perhaps you don't give it either. What is your view
:48:37. > :48:41.
:48:41. > :48:51.on that? Load of nonsense. They took Christopher, they are not
:48:51. > :48:53.
:48:53. > :48:58.taking my life. Forgiveness is - fur looking for revenge, be
:48:58. > :49:04.prepared for digging two graves. is a remarkable story. I think that
:49:04. > :49:07.is very interesting, because the lack of forgiveness actually can
:49:07. > :49:11.bind you and you end up bitter and that sense of needing revenge all
:49:11. > :49:15.the time can destroy your life as well. That is the great gift that
:49:15. > :49:19.we heard from them, that actually they have given us an example of
:49:19. > :49:23.how to forgive under those circumstances. What is most
:49:23. > :49:28.important they chose life, they chose to continue to live. They are
:49:28. > :49:32.not missionaries, not trying to convert anybody. They chose to live
:49:33. > :49:37.in the wake of their son's dae. It is a very high human choice, it is
:49:37. > :49:42.very, very difficult, but it does give back and they are the examples
:49:42. > :49:48.of it. We have choices to make. It is not easy to do, it is not even a
:49:48. > :49:53.typical thing to do, but the fact that they did it actually has
:49:53. > :49:57.enlarged their community in many ways. I don't want to intrude into
:49:57. > :50:02.private grief but the fundamental person who was offended against was
:50:02. > :50:10.the murdered boy. He is in no position to forgive, we do not know
:50:10. > :50:20.what he thinks. Ray and V Vi may forgive the murderer, but it
:50:20. > :50:21.
:50:21. > :50:27.doesn't seem to be within their power to to forgive on behalf of
:50:27. > :50:31.the murdered boy. It is a specific concern. The idea that end there is
:50:31. > :50:36.a certain bit of forgiveness that only your son could give, what do
:50:36. > :50:46.you make of that? Peter doesn't know my son, he can't speak on
:50:46. > :50:49.
:50:50. > :50:56.behalf of my son. I turned to that young man, I said we're hear, if
:50:56. > :51:00.Christopher was alive he would say get on with your life and move on.
:51:00. > :51:04.Thank you so much for speaking to us about your family's experience,
:51:04. > :51:10.we really appreciate it. It is this idea idea about choices
:51:10. > :51:14.and I can see many people could see, the distinction between parental
:51:14. > :51:18.forgiveness and the idea of the crime itself and victim might be
:51:18. > :51:22.something different. I want to bring in one other
:51:22. > :51:28.contributor if I can, who is well- known, she has spoken out a lot.
:51:28. > :51:31.Kitty, I know you are only on the phone able to speak to us, many may
:51:31. > :51:35.have heard before about your experiences because you survived
:51:35. > :51:39.Auschwitz and you saw all the atrocities carried out there. You
:51:39. > :51:45.have chosen to speak out about it and campaign on it still. It is
:51:45. > :51:49.important we never forget, but should we forgive? First of all we
:51:49. > :51:57.must not confuse revenge with forgiveness, because that came up
:51:57. > :52:02.in your discussion. They are two totally different aspects. I was in
:52:02. > :52:06.Auschwitz for two years as an eyewitness to the greatest crime in
:52:06. > :52:11.human history. My opinions have not changed over the years. There are
:52:11. > :52:16.crimes that are unforgivable. Who am I to forgive. This came up
:52:16. > :52:20.actually in your discussion. I have no right to forgive, all these
:52:20. > :52:26.people that have died. Anyone who witnessed what I have seen would
:52:26. > :52:33.pretty well feel the same. Let me just, if you give me two minutes, I
:52:33. > :52:38.will explain. As briefly as you can. Out of my two years, in my second
:52:38. > :52:45.years in Auschwitz I was taken to work near the gas chambers, four
:52:45. > :52:52.gas chambers. I watched the murder of something like 10,000 people,
:52:52. > :52:56.each day, every day, which is quite difficult to comprehend. Very
:52:56. > :53:02.difficult. I was made to sort out their belongings. These people who
:53:02. > :53:09.were brought in totally innocent, were sitting in the wood, across
:53:09. > :53:13.the way from the gas chambers. They had no conception of what was going
:53:14. > :53:19.to happen to them. They were just sitting there, having tumbled out
:53:19. > :53:27.of the cattle trucks, which they were in for several days. In groups
:53:27. > :53:32.they were led into a building, the next thing was, the corpss were
:53:32. > :53:36.laid outside waiting to be burnt, then you saw the ash come out.
:53:36. > :53:46.These are murders of innocent people that cannot be forgiven by
:53:46. > :53:52.anyone else here. Some higher authority maybe, but not here.
:53:52. > :53:57.would like to have response from the panel. Bear with us.
:53:57. > :54:01.There is this idea the Holocaust is something unforgivable. There are
:54:01. > :54:05.Nazi who showed remorse. I wonder from the panel if this is something
:54:05. > :54:10.different, set aside as the exception that proves the rule?
:54:10. > :54:14.is a larger example of the simple point. The person who has to
:54:14. > :54:21.forgive is the person against whom the offence has been committed. If
:54:21. > :54:27.that spern dead you are -- spern dead, you are bsh if that person is
:54:27. > :54:32.dead, you cannot forgive on behalf of that person. That is for a
:54:32. > :54:35.higher authority to do. Of course we can't, but a community has been
:54:35. > :54:40.offended against as well. A family has been owe offended against. Of
:54:40. > :54:44.course you can't make it better for an individual, but a community can
:54:44. > :54:48.make a decision about whether it forgives and I agree with kitty, I
:54:48. > :54:53.have been to Auschwitz, I couldn't forgive the Nazis for that, there
:54:53. > :54:58.is no way. But a community can make a decision about itself in relation
:54:58. > :55:02.to its own history and its own being and that's what Vi and Ray
:55:02. > :55:09.have done. They have made that decision on behalf of their family.
:55:09. > :55:14.They can't do it for their child, but they can do it for their family.
:55:14. > :55:18.It was the German nation against the Jewish people in a sense, an
:55:18. > :55:22.act that was extraordinary in human history but in the end, there's had
:55:22. > :55:26.to be reconciliation between those two peoples and a sense of coming
:55:26. > :55:30.together in a world where they actually have to learn from the
:55:30. > :55:35.disaster of Auschwitz, and the genocide, to a world where people
:55:35. > :55:40.can actually live in harmony and peace. There has to be punishments
:55:40. > :55:44.too in that case. Thank you very much kitty for speaking to us. It
:55:44. > :55:49.is never ideal to discuss something like this so briefly, but thank you.
:55:49. > :55:56.We do have to end it there because your text poll votes are in.
:55:56. > :56:00.Here is what you told us. 85% of those who who texted said yes, and
:56:00. > :56:03.15% said no. I think we always knew this
:56:03. > :56:07.discussion was going to be one that would rouse strong emotions. But I
:56:07. > :56:11.think it is interesting the wording was fair enough. Because of this
:56:11. > :56:16.issue of whether the state has made fatherhood an optional extra.
:56:16. > :56:20.don't think it's made fatherhood an optional extra. I still think
:56:20. > :56:24.fathers play an important role in families. Our poll suggests that is
:56:24. > :56:27.the case in the minds of most people. But that is not denying the
:56:27. > :56:31.value of families where fathers aren't there for one reason or
:56:31. > :56:34.another. That is my point. The most important thing are children and
:56:34. > :56:40.making the families families that they are born into, however they
:56:40. > :56:45.are born into as stable and safe as possible. This includes a father
:56:45. > :56:49.and I I grew up with a dad, I support fatherhood but the most
:56:49. > :56:59.important thing is children. What is the way forward? Reform, we have
:56:59. > :57:00.
:57:00. > :57:10.to recognise that we have made a major mistake. Why don't we put it
:57:10. > :57:14.
:57:14. > :57:23.right. What would you change?I would make marriage stronger, I
:57:23. > :57:28.would make it harder to... Its Its current weakness was legislated in
:57:28. > :57:32.1969 and it has not been seriously reformed since. Actually, the
:57:32. > :57:37.quality of a marriage is based on the relationship between two people,
:57:37. > :57:42.and the way that relationship functions, tolerance, acceptance.
:57:42. > :57:46.That is what is vital in a relationship, not what the law says.
:57:46. > :57:49.Marriage again this idea the traditional family is a modern
:57:49. > :57:57.construct, it doesn't go all the way back in our history and I have
:57:57. > :58:03.lived long enough to see marriage redefined in relationship. Thank
:58:03. > :58:07.you to everybody who has taken part. Thank you to Peter, Bonnie and
:58:07. > :58:10.Bishop Stephen Lowe and to Kitty who spoke to us earlier. Don't text
:58:10. > :58:13.or call the phone lines any more, they are closed but you can