:00:12. > :00:14.The Government's health watchdog says schools should be focusing on
:00:14. > :00:19.whether children are happy. says schools should be focusing on
:00:19. > :00:21.But with growing concern about bad behaviour, is it time to be tougher
:00:21. > :00:54.- not softer - on bad behaviour? Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. I'm
:00:54. > :00:57.Samira Ahmed. Also on today's programme:
:00:57. > :00:59.Should bosses always pick the best person for the job? Or, as
:00:59. > :01:02.broadcaster Simon Fanshawe argues, should employers value diversity
:01:02. > :01:06.over ability? Always just hiring the best person for the job, it isn't
:01:06. > :01:10.just bad business, it is bad ethics. If we want to perform at the highest
:01:10. > :01:13.level of work, we have do hire diversity because they come up with
:01:13. > :01:17.the best solutions. And he was one of the most popular
:01:17. > :01:20.Popes ever, but does John Paul II deserve to be made a saint?
:01:20. > :01:31.Joining me this week are broadcaster and writer Simon Fanshawe. Until
:01:31. > :01:32.recently, he was Chair of the Governing Council of Sussex
:01:32. > :01:35.University. Reverend George Hargreaves, a former
:01:35. > :01:38.music producer and songwriter, now a religious minister, who ran a school
:01:38. > :01:40.in London for ten years. And reality TV star and
:01:40. > :01:43.businesswoman Katie Hopkins, who recently made headlines for saying
:01:44. > :01:46.she wouldn't let her children play with those she considered to have
:01:46. > :01:50.lower-class names. We want to know what you think. If
:01:50. > :02:03.you have a webcam, you can join us via Skype. You
:02:03. > :02:07.Schools are being advised that they should "systematically measure"
:02:07. > :02:15.children's happiness levels to stop them going off the rails. That's
:02:15. > :02:19.according to new recommendations from the National Institute for
:02:19. > :02:21.Health and Care Excellence. The Campiagn for Real Education have
:02:22. > :02:25.branded the latest proposal "ludicrous", saying that teachers
:02:25. > :02:28.have a hard enough job already. The new guidelines come in the same week
:02:28. > :02:31.teachers at a school in Birmingham are considering industrial action
:02:31. > :02:33.after being forced to re-admit a pupil originally excluded because of
:02:33. > :02:37.allegedly threatening other students with a knife.
:02:37. > :02:41.So do children need more discipline? We went to a school in Nottingham
:02:41. > :02:46.which come up with a novel way of tackling the issue.
:02:46. > :02:52.Top Valley Academy has no particular problems with the behaviour of its
:02:52. > :02:56.pupils, and one of the reasons could be this... Looking good, we have
:02:56. > :03:03.three people in the same zone, working well as a team. The school
:03:03. > :03:10.is holding former soldiers who have brought a military touch to the
:03:10. > :03:21.playing fields. Teams, get ready, three, two, one, though. The
:03:21. > :03:26.partnership with Commander Joes is very much a partnership led one, it
:03:26. > :03:33.is tackling issues and barriers, which may be learning loss, poor
:03:33. > :03:37.attendance, self confidence issues, self-esteem issues. The Commander
:03:37. > :03:41.Joe programme, funded by the Department of education, is targeted
:03:41. > :03:44.at children of primary school age upwards and aims to tackle any
:03:44. > :03:52.potential problems by instilling useful values. Good, big jump. Looks
:03:52. > :03:56.like we have a victorious team. One of the challenges that we have
:03:56. > :03:59.is we are seen as a bit of a boot camp and a bad lads Army, which is
:03:59. > :04:03.not the case, it is not the way to engage with people. It is about
:04:03. > :04:10.being inspiring, approachable and letting young people want to learn.
:04:10. > :04:16.Even though the sessions keep the pupils on their toes, they seem to
:04:16. > :04:20.welcomed the taste of discipline. It has made me respect the teachers a
:04:20. > :04:30.lot more and made me listen to other people. It is fun coming to school
:04:30. > :04:35.and getting to interact with people more. Lots of my friends do it. It
:04:35. > :04:41.just gets me in the mood for the next lesson. Academy principal Peter
:04:41. > :04:45.Brown reckons the sessions with the former soldiers have resulted in a
:04:45. > :04:50.positive affect on attitudes. It is summed up to him by one of his
:04:50. > :04:57.pupils. When you are in it, you are in it. You don't get the chance to
:04:57. > :05:01.drop out. That is a very powerful ethic for our pupils to actually
:05:01. > :05:06.recognise, that sense of commitment to something. If they can transfer
:05:06. > :05:12.that commitment to their work, to their own futures and destinies,
:05:12. > :05:16.that is a very powerful tool. As we heard, Top Valley Academy only
:05:16. > :05:19.has to deal with minor discipline issues. But the biggest teachers'
:05:19. > :05:26.union, the NASUWT, says low-level disruption is growing and is
:05:26. > :05:32.corrosive. George Hargreaves, you ran a school per ten years, what is
:05:32. > :05:35.your idea that tough discipline... ? Train a child in the way they should
:05:35. > :05:39.go and they will never depart from it, they need boundaries. That is
:05:39. > :05:44.what discipline is about, it is not about beating up kids, it is setting
:05:44. > :05:48.boundaries and there is security. That is what we found in our school.
:05:48. > :05:58.That's the question for our text vote. Should teachers be tougher on
:05:58. > :06:04.bad behaviour in schools? Text the word VOTE followed by YES or NO to
:06:04. > :06:10.81771. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Simon
:06:10. > :06:14.Fanshawe, one wonders what we mean when we talk about being top and
:06:14. > :06:18.what we mean by bad behaviour. The teaching union was saying it is this
:06:18. > :06:24.low-level, general verbal abuse, lack of respect for teachers. That
:06:24. > :06:29.is the heart of the problem. Who would be a teacher? I am not sure
:06:29. > :06:36.zero tolerance works. I am not a teacher and I am not a parent... But
:06:36. > :06:39.you were once a pupil. This is an objective and expert opinion?
:06:39. > :06:43.Clearly coming you have to set boundaries, and if you clearly focus
:06:43. > :06:48.on the problem is if it is a problem, you simply repeat that. In
:06:48. > :06:52.the work we do, a lot of the times we use this notion of affirmative
:06:52. > :06:58.enquiry. Instead of obsessing about the problem, you try to posit what
:06:58. > :07:03.you want it to be like. We were in a school in Manchester recently. When
:07:03. > :07:07.the riots happened in 2011, the teachers spanned out across the area
:07:07. > :07:14.and visited every single family and they gave the parents and the
:07:14. > :07:20.kids... Not one single child of them got involved in the riots. They are
:07:20. > :07:23.trying this system where they are engaging, you heard it in the film,
:07:24. > :07:28.engaging them and creating a positive atmosphere. So the idea of
:07:28. > :07:35.coming down hard, it is kind of misplaced. What you want to do is
:07:35. > :07:39.show the kids what is possible. I go to the completely opposite view. For
:07:39. > :07:42.me, schools just become pandering institutions to what the children
:07:42. > :07:48.want to do. Do they choose to show up? Do they choose to do their work?
:07:48. > :07:51.No. For me, zero tolerance is all about saying you are at school, you
:07:51. > :07:56.are here to learn and get on with it. I just want teachers to start
:07:56. > :07:57.doing parenting lessons. If you don't know how to be a parent, don't
:07:57. > :08:05.doing parenting lessons. If you be a children. We need to stop
:08:05. > :08:10.saying we need to be more inclusive and support that behaviour. I am
:08:10. > :08:14.tired of hearing support. Support late arrivals. Supports children
:08:14. > :08:20.that don't want to learn. I'm tired of hearing support. We need much
:08:20. > :08:24.less carrot and much more stick. In our school, we set boundaries. You
:08:24. > :08:28.walk into our classroom, immediately, every child is on their
:08:28. > :08:34.feet, good morning. These rules of behaviour. And they know what they
:08:34. > :08:40.have to do what happens at children don't? What do you mean by being
:08:40. > :08:44.Tupper? Yes is yes and no is no, there is an expectation. People in
:08:44. > :08:48.our school expected the consequence that they did something wrong. First
:08:48. > :08:53.and foremost, they are going to have to see the headmistress, my wife.
:08:53. > :08:57.You don't want to see her, not that she is going to beat you, but the
:08:57. > :09:05.mere fact that you have to go and see Pasteur Maxine, you don't want
:09:06. > :09:13.that. We don't have that in schools any more. School I'm talking about
:09:13. > :09:20.in Manchester, when you walk around that in Manchester... It is those
:09:20. > :09:26.superficial opinions, yes, let's be tough and I am sick of support. What
:09:26. > :09:29.you have got is you have to find a way of creating a community, an
:09:29. > :09:35.institution, a group of people who agree and are dear to those rules.
:09:35. > :09:39.Partly it is about social shame, so when a child is sent outside the
:09:39. > :09:43.class, they feel the disapproval. Not just their headteacher and
:09:43. > :09:51.fellow pupils but their parents and so forth. You have to find a way of
:09:51. > :09:55.engaging. We had a vote today, Mun, at school, this is what my child
:09:55. > :10:04.told me, on whether we should do homework or not. It is a silly
:10:04. > :10:07.headteacher. It did happen, my daughter got to vote on whether they
:10:07. > :10:15.did homework or not. That class chose not to have the homework. This
:10:15. > :10:19.was six or seven-year-olds. Why did, let's call him, Brian, get to play
:10:20. > :10:22.on the computer today? Because he didn't throw the brick through the
:10:22. > :10:32.classroom window. This actually happen. -- happened. This is what is
:10:32. > :10:38.happening in schools today. I want to bring in someone who works in
:10:38. > :10:41.schools, Eileen Murphy, a behaviour management trainer. We know from
:10:41. > :10:43.what Katie is saying and from generally in the newspapers, a lot
:10:43. > :10:46.of parents feel there is a lack of generally in the newspapers, a lot
:10:46. > :10:52.respect that has become normalised in schools. Do we need to reimpose
:10:52. > :10:57.some old-fashioned notion of boundaries and sanctions? Yes, I
:10:57. > :11:01.just find it interesting that the assumption, I have been listening,
:11:01. > :11:04.and the assumption is that if it is the pupils who need some kind of
:11:04. > :11:11.boundaries and they need to be taught respect. I do feel
:11:11. > :11:16.passionately that, I agree with the army chap, it is about boundaries,
:11:16. > :11:19.and it is about being inspiring to children. Children are great
:11:19. > :11:25.imitators, so you should give them great to imitate -- something great
:11:25. > :11:29.to imitate. I work with schools all across the UK and when teachers
:11:29. > :11:34.change their behaviour and when they set out to catch children doing
:11:34. > :11:36.something right, and do not focus so much and sanctions, catch them doing
:11:36. > :11:44.something right and build on their strengths... May I ask, I caught
:11:44. > :11:50.Brian not throwing the brick through the window so he was rewarded. Is
:11:50. > :11:55.that not what you are saying? You have got to start somewhere. The
:11:55. > :12:04.brain so that is a good place to start? He didn't throw a brick? That
:12:04. > :12:11.is state schools for today. We worked in a secure unit. The staff
:12:11. > :12:15.were all trained and the whole ethos worked in a secure unit. The staff
:12:15. > :12:19.changed from sanctions and punishments to catching a child,
:12:19. > :12:26.catching a young person, doing something right. Control and
:12:26. > :12:31.restraint went down, I believe, 30%. Even the Home Office were impressed.
:12:31. > :12:37.Very briefly, Eileen... Do finish Even the Home Office were impressed.
:12:37. > :12:44.your point. There is something in it. If consequences and punishments
:12:44. > :12:52.would work, they would have worked by now. I want to bring in Katie
:12:52. > :12:56.Iran's, who is the vice president of the Campaign for Real Education.
:12:56. > :13:00.Your campaign is against measuring happiness in schools, as NICE are
:13:00. > :13:05.suggesting. Why do you think it is ludicrous that we should put more of
:13:06. > :13:10.a focus on the positive? What we should put a focus on is the purpose
:13:10. > :13:14.of education, and that is that teachers should teach the children
:13:14. > :13:18.in an ordered way. The teacher should be an authority, but that's
:13:18. > :13:22.the person who passes on the knowledge but also the person who
:13:22. > :13:25.controls the class. If you do that properly, the children will do well,
:13:25. > :13:30.they will respond and will learn and they will behave and they will get
:13:30. > :13:33.the reward of not just a pat on the back for not throwing a brick
:13:33. > :13:37.through a window, but the reward of learning and understanding and
:13:37. > :13:41.increasing their knowledge and increasing their judgement of how
:13:41. > :13:45.you should behave. That is not only different to what the last
:13:45. > :13:50.contributor was saying, yet you call the idea of measuring happiness
:13:50. > :13:53.ludicrous. Do not measure the happiness, measure what children are
:13:54. > :13:56.learning. Teachers should be teachers, they should not be
:13:56. > :14:02.therapists. They shouldn't be parents. The teacher's job is to
:14:02. > :14:08.teach and if you do that well, you will have happy, well-behaved
:14:08. > :14:11.children. Can I get a word in? I want to buttress what Eileen said
:14:11. > :14:17.about catching children doing things well. In life general, catch
:14:17. > :14:19.everybody doing good things. A part of our ethos at our school was not
:14:19. > :14:22.everybody doing good things. A part just the boundaries but also the
:14:23. > :14:28.rewards. We would give Ed Merritt slips, there would be a merit tuck
:14:28. > :14:35.shop. If you did well, you got rewards. There is this concern about
:14:35. > :14:40.what is being rewarded and whether there is too much focus on
:14:40. > :14:45.disruptive children, for not being disruptive. I think that is true,
:14:45. > :14:49.but I do not think the logic of too much attention on the disruptive
:14:49. > :14:55.kids is what I was trying to say. It is that if continue to concentrate
:14:55. > :14:59.on problems, you see the whole thing in a negative light and what
:14:59. > :15:05.impressed me in Manchester, in a school which has reduced their
:15:05. > :15:09.permanent exclusions to zero, and fixed exclusions to a tiny amount,
:15:09. > :15:12.what impressed me about them was they were setting about, but the
:15:12. > :15:15.parents and the children together, to create a positive atmosphere in
:15:15. > :15:18.parents and the children together, the school. So instead of abscess
:15:18. > :15:23.ing about the children and Brian throwing a brick through a window,
:15:23. > :15:28.-- obsessing, they were creating a positive school in which children
:15:28. > :15:34.wanted to do well. And the evidence shows that works. That is the key
:15:34. > :15:40.point. Katie can chat on in this way that you always do, but if you look
:15:40. > :15:56.at the evidence across schools, what George is saying, it works. Being a
:15:56. > :16:01.mother, I understand what goes on in schools. I think the Campaign For
:16:01. > :16:04.Real Education are making a vital point. Schools have become housing
:16:05. > :16:11.centres, health centres, paid intuition centres. What schools need
:16:11. > :16:14.to do is go back to what Katie is saying, which is become schools
:16:14. > :16:21.where teachers teach and children do what they are told. The best way you
:16:21. > :16:25.can become a school is by setting boundaries, catching kids doing well
:16:25. > :16:35.and by rewarding them, and they will become happier human beings. I want
:16:35. > :16:39.to bring in the president of the teaching union. With your members
:16:39. > :16:46.like to see tougher discipline and tougher punishments? That would be
:16:46. > :16:50.the easy solution. I have been listening carefully to the
:16:50. > :16:54.discussion, and I would like to take it right back to why children are
:16:54. > :17:00.doing low-level disruption in the classroom. It is the view of our
:17:00. > :17:05.members that it is the underlying problem of the test culture and the
:17:05. > :17:10.restricted curriculum. As professionals, if we were allowed to
:17:10. > :17:14.turn teaching and learning into enjoyment in the classroom,
:17:14. > :17:20.disruptive behaviour would drop to some extent and standards would
:17:20. > :17:23.rise. I was interested to see the gentleman at the beginning of the
:17:23. > :17:28.programme, the man from Commando Joes. He was giving those children
:17:28. > :17:36.focus and enjoyment which they were returning. Thank you. We can see all
:17:36. > :17:38.these great examples of individual skills and strong leadership, but
:17:38. > :17:46.some schools, especially smaller ones, there is almost the
:17:46. > :17:50.self-selection of who goes there. Lots of the concerns are in schools
:17:50. > :17:57.where even a small proportion of children in one class can disrupt
:17:57. > :18:03.the learning of others. I am agreeing with you. I think there is
:18:03. > :18:10.a false stack to me. The question is, how do we achieve a situation in
:18:10. > :18:17.which children can learn. Exclusion is in secondary schools have gone
:18:17. > :18:22.down significantly. We had a policy of no exclusions. We even put it in
:18:22. > :18:27.our local paper. We had a private school. I want to give credit to my
:18:27. > :18:32.late wife, who was actually the principle. She ran the school and
:18:32. > :18:43.she ran it as a disciplined matriarch. We did not have
:18:43. > :18:53.exclusions. We had a diverse range of evils. -- children. If I can give
:18:53. > :18:58.you one anecdote, a boy was very disruptive. When we got to the writ
:18:58. > :19:06.of it, it was because he could not hide his tie. His brother had been
:19:06. > :19:08.teasing him. It is not that simple. You love your stories, but you do
:19:08. > :19:14.teasing him. It is not that simple. not like George's. Headmasters will
:19:14. > :19:19.tell you that they are not allowed any more to exclude children beyond
:19:19. > :19:23.certain bounds. It is an incredible frustration for them. I would
:19:23. > :19:28.exclude children that do not follow the rules. If you bring a knife into
:19:28. > :19:37.school, you're not coming back into the school again. This is all about
:19:37. > :19:40.school, you're not coming back into the lowest common denominator. We
:19:40. > :19:45.need to focus on brilliance, not her performance. You have former Labour
:19:45. > :19:47.ministers and Michael Gove saying that this is the concern that
:19:47. > :19:53.ministers and Michael Gove saying tenants have, that the system is
:19:53. > :19:56.about the lowest common denominator. All of these methods of possible
:19:56. > :20:02.encouragement, perhaps it is time to go back to something more
:20:02. > :20:06.old-fashioned? It started with a culture that takes it out of your
:20:07. > :20:15.brain. You should not be bringing knives into school. The examples
:20:15. > :20:21.Simon gave was that teachers were playing a part, going to teachers'
:20:21. > :20:27.homes. There was no trouble in the riots. So teachers are no social
:20:27. > :20:30.workers? You're trying to create a situation in which children learn.
:20:30. > :20:36.You're trying to equip them to be citizens in the world. That is the
:20:36. > :20:41.point of the school education. They need to understand how to live in
:20:41. > :20:45.the world. In order to do that, you need to teach children not just when
:20:45. > :20:49.the Battle of Hastings was, but teach them the way to live with each
:20:49. > :20:54.other, work with each other and be good citizens. The way you do that
:20:54. > :21:03.is create a community. That is true whether you're being a boss in a
:21:03. > :21:09.company or the head of the school. You try and raise the aspirations of
:21:09. > :21:13.the whole school. We have to leave it there. These people are not
:21:13. > :21:19.social workers, they are teachers. A couple of your comments. One viewer
:21:19. > :21:24.says he is 24 and when he was at school, they still had to stand up
:21:24. > :21:27.when a teacher entered the room. An anonymous one, I am a teacher and
:21:27. > :21:33.children know the difference between behaving and not behaving. You have
:21:33. > :21:37.to be fed and firm. And Janet says that teachers need to be consistent
:21:38. > :21:44.in their approach to boundaries. Many do not set boundaries reward
:21:44. > :21:49.good behaviour. Our votes is still open on this. Should teachers be
:21:49. > :22:00.tougher on bad behaviour in schools? You can only votes once.
:22:00. > :22:08.The details are the screen. -- you can only vote once. You have around
:22:08. > :22:12.20 minutes before the vote closes. New figures released this week show
:22:12. > :22:16.that two thirds of women in England are now in employment. Women's
:22:16. > :22:19.rights groups say that the figures are encouraging, but did its
:22:20. > :22:25.progress to be made as men still make up the majority of the top 10%
:22:25. > :22:28.of earners. Earlier this month the Home Office minister Damian Green
:22:29. > :22:32.said the police must make more use of equality laws to increase the
:22:32. > :22:36.number of black and other ethnic minority officers serving. Simon
:22:36. > :22:42.Fanshawe you says that all employers should stop simply hiring who they
:22:42. > :22:46.think is the best person for the job and should recruit as diverse
:22:46. > :22:50.workforce as possible. This is his Sunday Stand. Just get the best
:22:50. > :22:58.person for the job as the unarguable maxim at work today. But while
:22:58. > :23:02.companies are running around appointing usually the best man for
:23:02. > :23:08.the job, they have missed out on the fact that very little of what we do
:23:08. > :23:10.at work we do on our own. The complexity of problems at the
:23:10. > :23:15.multifaceted challenges that businesses face need to be tackled
:23:15. > :23:19.by teens. Teams have a single intelligence, like you and I, but
:23:19. > :23:23.here is the thing, the highest performing teams are made up of not
:23:23. > :23:29.just the highest performing individuals, but people from diverse
:23:29. > :23:34.items. I mean a diversity of approach, method, background, where
:23:34. > :23:39.they come from, whether that is gender, race or disability. If
:23:39. > :23:43.recruiters want to achieve the best results for business, they should
:23:43. > :23:46.not lightly appoint the best person for the job, what should do
:23:46. > :23:51.liberally create diverse teams. That liberally create diverse teams. That
:23:51. > :23:55.is why we need to draw staff from a wider talent pool. Hiring the best
:23:55. > :24:04.man for the job is not just that business, it is bad ethics. You have
:24:04. > :24:09.to hire to the level of skill required for the job. That is right.
:24:09. > :24:12.I do not want an architect who does not know the difference between a
:24:12. > :24:17.load airing beam and the flying buttress. But in order to perform to
:24:17. > :24:21.the highest level of work, we to recruit diverse teams. I am looking
:24:21. > :24:27.forward to hearing what Katie and George have to say on this. You can
:24:27. > :24:32.join in by webcam, phone, or by e-mail. Katie, Simon saying it is
:24:33. > :24:39.not just ethics, it is about good is no sense. There is a story into
:24:39. > :24:46.the's sandy times, if you have of heard of your Board of Directors
:24:46. > :24:50.women, the company performs better. The government did a survey that
:24:50. > :24:55.said that that sort of thing did not make a difference. We can bounce
:24:55. > :24:59.surveys batted one another. We need to reward performance and pay on
:25:00. > :25:04.results. Diversity is a load of nonsense. Why on earth would you
:25:04. > :25:08.recruit on gender? You are going to recruit the best person for the
:25:08. > :25:13.job, the person that can bring the best commercial advantage to your
:25:13. > :25:19.job. I completely disagree with quarters. We have quarters for fish
:25:19. > :25:24.and milk. I am not a fish. All-female short lists are wrong. If
:25:24. > :25:29.you are recruited just on the basis that your woman, I call that
:25:29. > :25:33.offensive. I do not want to work with people that are there just
:25:33. > :25:40.because they represent diversity. How do you respond to that, Simon?
:25:40. > :25:44.What is interesting about this whole way of thinking is that if you look
:25:44. > :25:51.at the problems we are faced with, both in business and politics, they
:25:51. > :25:58.are very multifaceted and complex. What is interesting about the way in
:25:58. > :26:01.which the teams that have to face these problems, what is interesting
:26:01. > :26:05.is that all the evidence suggests that if you have a team of people
:26:05. > :26:10.that has a diversity of approach and discipline, and yes, identity, you
:26:10. > :26:17.get better results. Let me give you an example. You may remember the
:26:17. > :26:22.Enigma code, they were cracking the code. It was because the Germans use
:26:22. > :26:27.the war. They did not just have people who were involved in computer
:26:27. > :26:32.science, logic, whoever, they also had historians and experts in German
:26:32. > :26:39.literature. This comes from a great book. It tells this story, there was
:26:39. > :26:43.an expert in German history. This person said to one of the
:26:43. > :26:48.codebreakers, I think that the Germans will always sign of these
:26:48. > :26:52.coded messages by rank. It is a characteristic of German culture.
:26:52. > :26:55.They started to use that understanding of German culture. If
:26:55. > :26:58.I have a broad range of talent and understanding of German culture. If
:26:58. > :27:06.identity, you get better performance. The keyword he said, it
:27:06. > :27:08.was an expert. Did you hear what I said in the film, you have to
:27:08. > :27:12.recruit... said in the film, you have to
:27:12. > :27:24.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Let George make his point. It is
:27:24. > :27:29.evidence. All the evidence does not say this. I have also been in
:27:29. > :27:36.business. I have run a factory. You have to hire the people that you
:27:36. > :27:39.need. As a black person, I do not go for positive discrimination. I like
:27:39. > :27:46.to think that I am on this show because I am good at what they do.
:27:46. > :27:50.If we're going to have and, let's have an argument about what I am
:27:50. > :27:54.saying. I have not talked about positive discrimination, and I have
:27:54. > :27:58.not talked about hiding just because people are black or because people
:27:59. > :28:07.are women. We are going to argue about the position that I am
:28:07. > :28:11.actually pitting. -- putting. You're saying that if you take into account
:28:11. > :28:15.that able have the skills, you should be looking for the most
:28:15. > :28:23.diverse workforce you can have. I need to move it on. I would like to
:28:23. > :28:27.bring in a couple of contributors. This doctor researchers levels of
:28:27. > :28:30.racism. What is the reality for people from minority groups who are
:28:30. > :28:37.trying to get jobs, particularly at high levels? There are many surveys
:28:37. > :28:43.and many pieces of evidence, not just 12-mac. Ethnic minorities in
:28:43. > :28:52.Britain continue to experience disadvantage in the labour market. A
:28:52. > :28:56.Department for Work and Pensions survey found that people with
:28:56. > :28:58.foreign sending names had to send in prices many CV is to get an
:28:59. > :29:07.interview as people with traditional British names. The unemployment rate
:29:07. > :29:11.for black young men is 50%. We have just done a massive survey where we
:29:11. > :29:17.ask April about the experience of discrimination. We found that 60% of
:29:17. > :29:21.people have a feed of discrimination and half of black people said that
:29:21. > :29:25.he had personally experienced discrimination in the labour market.
:29:25. > :29:29.We can disagree about what to do about it, but it is not fair to say
:29:29. > :29:35.that there are 12 surveys that suggest this is a problem. There are
:29:35. > :29:40.multiple surveys. On merit versus diversity, I think that Simon's
:29:40. > :29:45.point is a fair summary of what the research shows. But I would
:29:45. > :29:51.characterise that is showing that there is not a trade-off between
:29:51. > :29:56.merit and diversity. Most efficient companies require diversity. That is
:29:56. > :30:10.the academic point. It is also about the behaviour of companies. They are
:30:10. > :30:13.not doing it for business reasons, they are doing it because they are
:30:13. > :30:23.obliged to, because they are going to be forced to, because there are
:30:23. > :30:27.quotas. If you look at the pool that they are going to fish from four
:30:27. > :30:32.females, at board level, it is tiny compared to the amount of men there
:30:32. > :30:33.are, and that is why there are the ratios you see. We mainly because
:30:33. > :30:38.they have children and they don't ratios you see. We mainly because
:30:38. > :30:41.return to boardrooms. It is simply a reflection of the way we live our
:30:41. > :30:48.lives and to try to artificially skew them through social policy is
:30:48. > :30:58.wrong. Do you have a response? Yes, it is fair to say that the
:30:58. > :31:03.traditional way that... I would say, is it the effective way to get a
:31:03. > :31:09.board decision? When you have complex problems in our society,
:31:09. > :31:13.when problems come up that do not fit the right way of thinking, when
:31:13. > :31:23.the financial problems happen, everybody thought the same way... We
:31:23. > :31:28.can make British business successful overseas. We can have the
:31:29. > :31:34.arguments, but business are doing this to be competitive in the UK
:31:35. > :31:40.market and externally. I wanted to respond to the racism point. Sure,
:31:40. > :31:45.there is racism out there. The best way to overcome racism is to be
:31:45. > :31:51.better than the guy next year. Even if they skew the view and say, I can
:31:51. > :31:54.make you money. So you are not even recruiting fairly. I hear this from
:31:54. > :31:59.a lot of people minority backgrounds, they have to be better
:31:59. > :32:04.to get treatment. They have to be better to get the job. I said better
:32:04. > :32:07.than the other person, it could be another black person. When people
:32:07. > :32:11.see that you are going to get the job done, they may have had some
:32:11. > :32:15.skewed thinking, and I have heard all sorts of things, you are
:32:15. > :32:27.different from black people, you have a skewed idea, I'm good at what
:32:27. > :32:29.I do. Yes, racism does exist, I am a black guy, 50 odd years old, but I
:32:29. > :32:32.I do. Yes, racism does exist, I am a have overcome it by being good at
:32:32. > :32:35.what I do, and that is what I tell the youths that you talk about in
:32:35. > :32:39.east London, be better than the next guy. Simon? Absolutely. There is a
:32:39. > :32:43.talent pool out there and to develop it, some people need more
:32:43. > :32:46.encouragement and some will get it anyway. Katie says it is reflecting
:32:46. > :32:51.the way the world is. It is and I don't like it. I want to reflect the
:32:51. > :32:53.way the world could be. There is a lot of talent we are wasting and if
:32:53. > :32:58.way the world could be. There is a you look at the way there is a glass
:32:58. > :33:02.ceiling, particularly for lack people and women into being on board
:33:02. > :33:06.and a senior manager. It is not to do with the lack of talent, it is to
:33:06. > :33:10.do with other forms of perception. If you look at what the blocks are
:33:10. > :33:13.to the development people's potential and try and do something
:33:13. > :33:18.about them, what you then do is realise people's potential, which is
:33:18. > :33:23.the business we are all in. I haven't once mentioned quotas or
:33:23. > :33:27.positive discrimination, is what people like Katie always go down,
:33:27. > :33:33.because it is the easiest argument. What I'm talking about simply is the
:33:33. > :33:39.development talent. So when we work on our businesses... You have made
:33:39. > :33:43.that point. You look at the functioning of boards that have a
:33:43. > :33:50.multiplicity... you have made these points, I will bring did some
:33:50. > :33:54.others. -- bring in. Most employers would probably say there are equal
:33:54. > :34:00.opportunities in their company for everyone. Is it working? Good
:34:00. > :34:06.morning, I have been listening to the debate and I would say it is not
:34:06. > :34:25.working, and employers know it is not. I have heard it is said that it
:34:25. > :34:37.is being actively worked on. Some simple things that employers are
:34:37. > :34:38.doing is recognising that they value people through different
:34:38. > :34:48.perspectives. They also ensuring that people have some kind of
:34:48. > :34:52.awareness around, it has been well researched by people like to recruit
:34:52. > :34:58.people like themselves. If you are comfortable, experienced... And it
:34:58. > :35:02.is looking at what happens at the process. There may be lots of
:35:02. > :35:03.applications and in the end, after all of the interviews, you will
:35:03. > :35:09.applications and in the end, after probably have some white men get the
:35:09. > :35:20.job. The line is a poor quality one, so we have to leave it there. I want
:35:20. > :35:24.to bring in Alex Stevenson, from politics .co.uk. I hope you can hear
:35:24. > :35:26.us. There are countries like Norway that do use quotas, and they say
:35:27. > :35:31.they make a big difference, especially to the quotas of women.
:35:31. > :35:36.They do not have legal status here but do you think they could have a
:35:36. > :35:42.social value in key jobs in key sectors? Clearly, it is desirable in
:35:42. > :35:46.Norway or anywhere else for us to have as diverse a workforce as
:35:46. > :35:50.possible, but the problem is, the moment you start deviating away from
:35:50. > :35:56.the basic principle of meritocracy, then you are creating a distortion
:35:56. > :36:00.which solves nothing. There is a real urge here to try and find a
:36:00. > :36:05.short cut to these big, social problems that we need to tackle to
:36:05. > :36:10.try and improve diversity in this country, or Norway, or wherever.
:36:10. > :36:15.This is just papering over it, it is a cosmetic solution which does not
:36:15. > :36:20.tackle the problem at source. Katie first. There are a few things here.
:36:20. > :36:24.I think quotas are not the way to go, I'm clear about that and let's
:36:24. > :36:27.not step away from the fact that businesses are not here to change
:36:27. > :36:32.the world, businesses are not here to simply have a different kind of
:36:32. > :36:36.ethical perspective on things. Businesses are here to generate
:36:36. > :36:41.profit for shareholders. That is what matters and we are forgetting.
:36:41. > :36:45.What about the crash, a narrow heard of a mostly men from a certain
:36:45. > :36:49.background and look at the mess they left us with? It is easy to flip
:36:49. > :36:55.back to that example and say this is the reason we need diversity. I
:36:55. > :37:00.think what we need to respect is the fact that we need to maintain
:37:00. > :37:03.business strategies focused on return the shareholder investment.
:37:03. > :37:11.That is what is key. It is not about changing the world. George. This
:37:11. > :37:14.idea has done a lot of damage, particularly in the Afro-Caribbean
:37:14. > :37:19.community. In the 1970s, the big thing was you had to look after the
:37:19. > :37:25.women and the black people. So what you had was that a black woman had
:37:25. > :37:30.the best chance of getting a job. That is a very sweeping assertion.
:37:30. > :37:36.On the subject, you speak to black men from that world... Can you sum
:37:36. > :37:42.it up into a sentence which among it is dangerous, that is a sentence.
:37:42. > :37:48.This is about removing the barriers from potential. And secondly,
:37:48. > :37:51.businesses are in business to perform at the highest possible
:37:51. > :37:56.level in order to return shareholder value. That actually is about ethics
:37:56. > :37:58.and diversity, because that's precisely get the business to
:37:58. > :38:06.perform at the highest level because it uses the talent at its disposal
:38:06. > :38:08.to the best possible way. I want to read a couple of comments.
:38:08. > :38:12.Christopher says nobody is going to strive to be the best they can be if
:38:12. > :38:21.they think they can get it through ethnicity or gender. This one says
:38:21. > :38:23.people tend to recruit in their own likeness but in my experience, Track
:38:23. > :38:25.Record is the best predictor for performance. Shelley says there is
:38:25. > :38:28.an assumption that ability is applied to a point. We need to
:38:28. > :38:32.overcome the old boys network. Thank you to everyone taking part in the
:38:32. > :38:36.discussion and you have been voting at home on our question this
:38:36. > :38:41.morning, should teachers be tougher on bad behaviour in schools? The
:38:41. > :38:45.lines have close now, so please do not send a text, because it will not
:38:45. > :38:51.count but you may still be charged. We will have the result at the end
:38:51. > :38:56.of the show. Now, almost as soon as he died in 2005 at the age of 84,
:38:56. > :39:00.there were called from Catholics for the Pope John Paul II to be made a
:39:00. > :39:05.saint. Tomorrow, Pope Francis is due to announce the news they are
:39:05. > :39:09.waiting for, the official date for the canonisation ceremony. There is
:39:09. > :39:12.no doubt that Pope John Paul is an important figure in the history of
:39:12. > :39:13.the Catholic Church, but some people are concerned that sainthood could
:39:13. > :39:18.the Catholic Church, but some people be too great in that perfection.
:39:18. > :39:22.the Catholic Church, but some people Pope John Paul II was the most
:39:22. > :39:26.travelled person ever, making more than 100 foreign trips during his 27
:39:26. > :39:32.year papacy. His effect on the millions of people who came to see
:39:32. > :39:35.him was plain. The crowd's delight is unqualified. Pope John Paul has
:39:35. > :39:42.made the papacy more personal than ever before. Becoming a saint can
:39:42. > :39:50.often be a long, drawn-out process, but chants of "santo subito" could
:39:50. > :39:57.be heard at his funeral Mass in 2005. Pope Benedict the 16th waved
:39:58. > :40:01.the traditional five-year waiting period, and allowed the
:40:01. > :40:04.investigation into Pope John Paul's life and virtues to begin
:40:04. > :40:11.immediately, a process applauded by many prominent Catholics. So maybe a
:40:11. > :40:14.fast track but not a careless track. I'm sure that everything will be
:40:14. > :40:19.fast track but not a careless track. done to ensure that the kind of
:40:19. > :40:23.moral certainty that is required, that somebody lived a holy life, and
:40:23. > :40:30.there is an inexplicable cure that has been brought about through their
:40:30. > :40:34.intercession. Two verified miracles are required for progress to the
:40:34. > :40:39.final stage of becoming a saint, canonisation. The first attributed
:40:39. > :40:43.to John Paul II was that of a French nun's recovery from Parkinson's
:40:43. > :40:45.disease. The second was the healing of a seriously ill woman from Costa
:40:45. > :40:50.Rica who had prayed to the late Pope of a seriously ill woman from Costa
:40:50. > :40:55.for his intercession. Others have clearly been deeply affected by his
:40:55. > :40:59.ministry. TRANSLATION: Saint John Paul II from
:40:59. > :41:02.our hearts, the last time he was here, I stood close to him on the
:41:03. > :41:09.straight and thank goodness that is grace, here we are again.
:41:09. > :41:14.But critics say he does not deserve a sainthood, after overseeing the
:41:14. > :41:18.church during a period which clergy sexual abuse was covered up and his
:41:18. > :41:23.strict adherence to Catholic teaching on issues such as abortion
:41:23. > :41:31.and contraception. Marriage must include openness, and the gift of
:41:31. > :41:45.children. Openness to accept children from God is the gift. So
:41:45. > :41:51.does John Paul II desire to become a saint? Or, as some argue, is this a
:41:51. > :41:56.sign that the Catholic Church is out of touch with modern society?
:41:56. > :41:59.How do you feel about Pope John Paul II becoming a saint? We would like
:41:59. > :42:06.to hear from you. You can join in by webcam, or make your point by phone,
:42:06. > :42:10.text or online, and we are joined from Catholic Voices by James new
:42:10. > :42:16.number, a trainee doctor. -- James Newman. Why do you think this is?
:42:16. > :42:21.Speak in a semi-people wanting to become a saint. Since he died in
:42:21. > :42:25.2005, people have been calling for him to be canonised. At his
:42:25. > :42:32.funeral, he had the largest attendance...
:42:32. > :42:34.What are the qualities that he has vision Mark he trained to be
:42:34. > :42:43.appraised --?
:42:43. > :42:49.He trained to be a priest under the Nazi occupation, against that, and
:42:49. > :42:55.his values came through in everything he did and said. Are the
:42:55. > :43:00.key values that stick out for you? It is hard to be specific but things
:43:01. > :43:06.over arch his whole thing. He was so behind the workers movement, and he
:43:06. > :43:10.was arguably the main force in bringing down European communism.
:43:10. > :43:13.But he also argued strongly for workers rights, fairer pay and
:43:14. > :43:17.better conditions for workers, and it was something from his
:43:17. > :43:21.upbringing. Having to work for the Nazis in a labour camp, he did
:43:21. > :43:26.understand what bad labour conditions were and wanted to create
:43:26. > :43:32.social justice. We are talking about someone being canonised as a saint,
:43:32. > :43:36.what are your views on it, Simon? I'm caught in a difficult position,
:43:36. > :43:41.because not being religious, I think it is very sweet but a bit of mumbo
:43:41. > :43:46.jumbo. I have great respect for faith, I cannot tell Desmond Tutu he
:43:46. > :43:49.is stupid, but I do find the institution of the Catholic Church,
:43:49. > :43:52.as distinct from your personal fave, I find the institution of the
:43:52. > :43:58.as distinct from your personal Catholic Church highly difficult. If
:43:58. > :44:02.you look back, you wait five years for the process of canonisation,
:44:02. > :44:07.Benedict took five weeks to start this process would John Paul II.
:44:07. > :44:10.John Paul II's record on the whole cover up around the child abuse
:44:10. > :44:13.scandal is questionable. We don't know what his role was and we don't
:44:13. > :44:17.know what he should or shouldn't have done. It does seem to me that
:44:17. > :44:20.know what he should or shouldn't the Catholic Church would do itself
:44:20. > :44:24.a favour and waited a little bit and bottoms that out. You did say that
:44:24. > :44:30.he had great respect for all people as individuals, except if you were
:44:30. > :44:36.gay. So I take personal exception to canonising someone who contributed
:44:36. > :44:40.to making people's lives hell by his attitude to homosexuality and the
:44:40. > :44:43.use of contraception, condoms, and being responsible for millions of
:44:43. > :44:52.deaths throughout the world. I will let James respond. I understand that
:44:52. > :44:56.a lot of terrible things have been done to gay men and women in
:44:56. > :45:03.history, but it is very fashionable to paint to pre-single catholic in
:45:03. > :45:07.history... No, the Vatican. I respect your personal faith.
:45:07. > :45:12.history... No, the Vatican. I Throughout history, the Catholic
:45:12. > :45:17.Church was often rescued -- was often a refuge for gay men. Gay men
:45:17. > :45:25.with often become monks priest to skip. The Catholic Church was one of
:45:25. > :45:30.the biggest advocates of decriminalisation of homosexuality.
:45:30. > :45:36.He condemned the toad right. It is the role of the Vatican I am getting
:45:36. > :45:43.at. Can I let George Cumming? I want to talk about the saints. According
:45:44. > :45:48.to the Bible is, -- according to the Bible, Christians are saints. I am a
:45:48. > :45:58.saint, you do not need to be canonised. What about me, and my
:45:58. > :46:00.condemned to hell? Our faces that if you do not believe in the Lord Jesus
:46:00. > :46:08.Christ... THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:46:08. > :46:13.Your elevated to a higher level. Let me get back to the question. Do you
:46:13. > :46:17.have an issue with the idea of since? This is the issue that I
:46:17. > :46:22.have, the way that Catholics canonise. There are certain things
:46:22. > :46:28.that have to happen before you become a saint. You have to perform
:46:28. > :46:34.to miracles that can be attributed to some deep rain to you as a dead
:46:34. > :46:40.person. Am I right? That, to me, goes totally against Scripture. The
:46:40. > :46:45.Scripture tells us that there is only one mediator between man and
:46:45. > :46:51.God. This is a theological distinction that you do not believe
:46:51. > :46:56.in. Absolutely, but it is a very important one. It is almost a
:46:56. > :47:03.dividing line between Catholics and Protestants. This is about status
:47:03. > :47:07.and money again. That is quite a cliched thing to say. It is about
:47:07. > :47:12.celebrating the life of one man who made a great difference to a lot of
:47:12. > :47:18.people. Just to address your point in general, it is not to say that he
:47:18. > :47:24.is somehow, he is part deity, part God, it is to say that saints are
:47:24. > :47:29.something which people use in order to give them focus. You might ask a
:47:30. > :47:34.friend to pray for you on your behalf, like you might ask a priest.
:47:34. > :47:38.It is the fact that one of the things that John Paul II did during
:47:38. > :47:43.his tenure as Pope, he canonised more people than any other pontiff
:47:43. > :47:48.before him. The idea of doing that was to try and get a great diversity
:47:48. > :47:51.of saints in the world. So that people of all countries and races
:47:51. > :47:56.could have somebody is or all model to look up to. I want to address
:47:56. > :48:04.this issue with the help of the Dominican sister. We were having
:48:04. > :48:08.this discussion about the idea of making a human ascent. Many people
:48:08. > :48:13.are uneasy with the idea, that they are implying that they are somehow
:48:13. > :48:17.perfect. Is that not a dangerous thing to say about any human being,
:48:17. > :48:21.however great their achievements? I do not think it is. It is not the
:48:21. > :48:28.Catholic Church that is making anyone ascent, but has made his
:48:28. > :48:32.saints through the corporation. In the process of canonisation, the
:48:32. > :48:38.church is recognising that those people are saints, and with God. It
:48:38. > :48:42.is not a question of deserving. Nor are we saying that they are perfect.
:48:42. > :48:45.There is something deeply ironic in our society that seems to think that
:48:45. > :48:50.There is something deeply ironic in sports stars, pop stars, actors, so
:48:50. > :48:52.many people live these charmed lives and are these charmed lives and
:48:52. > :48:58.argues perfect models. They are not perfect. If anything, we take them
:48:58. > :49:03.from a great height and we pulled them down. To be a saint is to be
:49:03. > :49:09.merciful, loving, compassionate, to follow the will of God. It is to
:49:09. > :49:19.allow God to make you perfect. Thank you. I would like to bring in an
:49:19. > :49:25.independent catholic priest. I think you may be able to work out why she
:49:25. > :49:29.is an independent catholic priest! Many Catholics have been calling for
:49:29. > :49:35.John Paul to be a saint since he died. Argue one of them? No, I am
:49:35. > :49:44.not. I think this is a celebrity culture driven sainthood. There is
:49:44. > :49:48.nothing dispassionate here. Pope John Paul II opposed of the idea of
:49:48. > :49:51.the devil's advocate in the making of saints. There is nothing
:49:51. > :49:58.dispassionate. More time should be taking. I truly believe that he is
:49:58. > :50:01.in heaven, he was a very good man. James outlined a lot of the
:50:01. > :50:05.extraordinary stuff he did in Poland. He is in heaven with
:50:05. > :50:08.homosexuals, people who have used contraception, people of all faiths
:50:08. > :50:14.homosexuals, people who have used and none. They are loved and in
:50:14. > :50:19.heaven together. The sooner we start realising that the better. Thank you
:50:19. > :50:26.so much. James, you're a medical student. There is this issue about
:50:26. > :50:29.the verification of two miracles. Do you really believe in miracles,
:50:29. > :50:36.having this spiritual cause rather than medical? It depends what you
:50:36. > :50:39.mean by miracle. I do not think it is anything supernatural. People get
:50:39. > :50:43.better all the time, but that does is anything supernatural. People get
:50:43. > :50:48.not mean it is not a meaningful thing. Many Catholics would believe
:50:48. > :50:59.it is a supernatural thing, but I do not. I want to ask, what makes it a
:50:59. > :51:04.miracle if it is not supernatural? I assume that if it is a miracle, it
:51:04. > :51:09.has to be outside medical science? That is the current line. I am not
:51:09. > :51:16.the best person to talk about this. It is a genuine question. Something
:51:16. > :51:20.that is miraculous, I would say that anything -- I would say that anyone
:51:20. > :51:27.who gets better against what science expects, that is miraculous.
:51:27. > :51:32.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE It has to be immediate and
:51:32. > :51:38.sustained. Immediately been cured of an aneurysm, immediately been cured
:51:38. > :51:45.of parkinsonism is, -- Parkinson is, I would call that a miracle. Yes,
:51:45. > :51:51.but it is a natural process. Let me bring back sister Karen. To
:51:51. > :51:55.outsiders, people look at this issue of miracles. How should we regard
:51:55. > :52:04.them? Adi purely spiritual healing is? I believe it is God working
:52:04. > :52:10.through the intercession of someone looking -- someone like Paul John
:52:10. > :52:18.Paul. Wait I disagree with sister Karen is this intercession through.
:52:18. > :52:23.You do not need this, you go through Christ. If you ask your friend to
:52:24. > :52:29.pray for you, that is what the saints are. They are friends. Just
:52:29. > :52:37.let her finish, because we cannot hear. What were you saying, we know
:52:37. > :52:43.these people are in heaven. There are millions of other people there,
:52:43. > :52:48.absolutely. But these are the people that we know that God has allowed
:52:48. > :52:54.his grace to work through. Why do we need them when we know Jesus is in
:52:54. > :53:04.heaven? Is there not something to be said, Simon, in a way, people of a
:53:04. > :53:07.different face or no faith could learn something from celebrating
:53:07. > :53:13.lives that are great, and taking some sort of kind of spiritual
:53:13. > :53:18.sacrifice? I feel like I in the most peculiar debate. It is a medical
:53:19. > :53:25.student Colin something a miracle, we are talking about having with the
:53:25. > :53:30.Pope is trotting around in heaven with people who are gay and to have
:53:30. > :53:34.used condoms. I think this is about the elevation of a truly great man
:53:34. > :53:40.in the interests of bolstering a very big, global institution, the
:53:40. > :53:46.Vatican. I do make that distinction. People regard this as a PR job.
:53:46. > :53:47.Certain people do. I think you're speaking from the perspective of
:53:47. > :53:52.someone who is not a Catholic. There speaking from the perspective of
:53:52. > :53:55.are millions of people who take a great deal from this. It is not to
:53:55. > :53:59.are millions of people who take a do with bolstering an institution.
:53:59. > :54:04.It is about people like me and Catholics in the rest of the world,
:54:04. > :54:10.in poor Africa. I have to stop you fresh second. Simon, you need easier
:54:10. > :54:18.this other contributor, Anette Murphy, who joins us. She met the
:54:18. > :54:25.Pope. For you, it was a profound experience. Can you tell us why?
:54:25. > :54:30.Yes, it was looking -- it was like looking into the eyes of God, the
:54:30. > :54:36.Father. I experienced a great love that penetrated into my heart. He
:54:36. > :54:45.was kind, gentle and this holiness just exuded through him. I had a win
:54:45. > :54:50.from childhood, from the loss of my own father, and it was like looking
:54:50. > :54:56.into the eyes of God, the Father. That fatherly mess of God. I gained
:54:56. > :55:02.great strength from that. Thank you. Thank you so much. We will not get
:55:02. > :55:05.everyone to agree, but I think it was important to get a range of
:55:05. > :55:10.peoples experiences and the reasons that people feel strongly about
:55:10. > :55:17.this. A couple of your thoughts from home. Mary says he'd is a good man.
:55:17. > :55:24.-- E was a good man. He was one of the first to travel the world.
:55:24. > :55:31.Another says, I find the concept of canonisation unacceptable. Robert
:55:31. > :55:34.says that he thinks he should be made a saint for the work he has
:55:34. > :55:41.done for the people. Thank you for all your comments. We have to end it
:55:41. > :55:45.there. Your votes in. We asked at the start of the programme, should
:55:45. > :55:53.teachers be tougher on bad behaviour in schools? This is what you told
:55:53. > :55:55.us. 96% said yes, they should. James, your closest here to
:55:55. > :56:00.us. 96% said yes, they should. remembering your schooldays. People
:56:00. > :56:05.feel very strongly about this. What is your view on this? It is a
:56:05. > :56:09.difficult question to answer. You have to understand the individual
:56:09. > :56:14.pupils in question. You cannot say you have to be tougher on all pupils
:56:14. > :56:20.in the country. There are some cases where yes, you do have to be
:56:20. > :56:25.tougher, but there are other cases would it would be inappropriate. It
:56:25. > :56:28.is striking a balance. I agree with what George said. It is about
:56:28. > :56:34.boundaries and creating a community that has high standards. James is
:56:34. > :56:37.absolutely right. What you have to do is understand how each individual
:56:37. > :56:42.pupil and family can aspire to that level of performance. You saw how
:56:42. > :56:50.strongly people feel about this issue. Absolutely. Every parent I
:56:50. > :56:55.have spoken to, parents that apply to get into school, it a fee-paying
:56:55. > :57:01.school, it is this discipline aspect that is at the heart. They felt that
:57:01. > :57:05.the state schools were failing. That is what Katie was getting at. They
:57:05. > :57:10.wanted their children to come to a place where the sort order. People
:57:11. > :57:16.worry that there is this the divide, that if you can afford it, do pay
:57:16. > :57:21.for discipline. The school I was referring to in Manchester, it was
:57:21. > :57:24.in something of a stately and a half ago, and it now has a great
:57:24. > :57:30.headteacher. The day I spent there was astonishing. The headmaster will
:57:30. > :57:34.go into the classrooms, and everyone stands up, good morning, sir. But
:57:34. > :57:40.you have parents that have made that decision. Just to say, this is a
:57:40. > :57:45.school that is in the whose date of Manchester. Last brief word to you.
:57:45. > :57:52.school that is in the whose date of We are in Hackney in the East End of
:57:52. > :57:58.London. We would love to have gotten into the State Academy programme,
:57:58. > :58:08.but Michael Gove would not allow us. We have to leave it there. Thanks to
:58:08. > :58:11.everyone who has taken part today. Also to my guests in the studio,
:58:11. > :58:14.Reverend George Hargreaves, Simon Fanshawe and James Newman, as well
:58:14. > :58:18.as Katie Hopkins who joined us earlier. Don't text or call the
:58:18. > :58:21.phone lines any more. They are now closed. But you can continue the
:58:21. > :58:24.conversation online. The links are on our website. And that's it for
:58:24. > :58:28.this week. From me, Samira Ahmed, goodbye.