:00:15. > :00:20.As a worldwide hunt is launched for a British Muslim woman with alleged
:00:20. > :00:24.links to terrorism, and Sunday Morning Live we ask if British
:00:24. > :00:44.Muslims are doing enough to prevent the radicalisation of young people.
:00:44. > :00:52.Good morning. I am Samira Ahmed. Also wanted a's programme, weddings
:00:52. > :00:55.may still be big business but they are in decline. Cohabiting couples
:00:55. > :01:01.are on the increase. So, is marriage a thing of the past? If I had my
:01:01. > :01:04.way, I probably would not get married, would just live together
:01:04. > :01:08.and be happy. But my fiance, she felt that the marriage was something
:01:08. > :01:14.she really wanted and was important to her. And we enter the world of
:01:14. > :01:22.The Ottomans, the empire that lasted 600 years, as Rageh Omar tells us
:01:22. > :01:28.about his new landmark EDC series. Wow, look at this. This is the view
:01:28. > :01:35.that the Ottoman sultans would have seen. It simply takes your breath
:01:35. > :01:39.away. Well, joining me this week for a special debate are Peter
:01:39. > :01:42.Hitchens, author and former foreign correspondent. He is a columnist
:01:42. > :01:47.from the Mail on Sunday. Yvonne Ridley is a journalist that was
:01:47. > :01:50.captured by the Taliban in 2001. She converted to Islam after release and
:01:50. > :01:55.has become a vocal supporter of Muslim causes. Peter Neumann is
:01:55. > :01:58.Professor of Security studies at King's College London and is
:01:58. > :02:07.director of the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation. And
:02:07. > :02:10.Usama Hasan fought with the Mujahideen against Soviet forces,
:02:10. > :02:14.before changing his views on jihad. He is now part of a counterterrorism
:02:14. > :02:18.think tank, the Quilliam Foundation. You can join us through
:02:18. > :02:31.Skype, and you can give your views through Twitter or on phone.
:02:31. > :02:37.Now, British Muslims have taken part in foreign conflicts around the
:02:37. > :02:40.world, including Afghanistan, Bosnia and Syria. Now it is claimed that
:02:40. > :02:46.some young Muslims have also been recruited from the UK by Al-Shabab,
:02:46. > :02:54.which exposes jihad, or holy war, and claims response ability for the
:02:54. > :03:00.attack on the Westgate Mall in Kenya. One alleged British Muslim
:03:00. > :03:03.convert with alleged links to terrorism has been put on
:03:03. > :03:09.Interpol's watchlist. But why are some Muslims attracted by the idea
:03:09. > :03:13.of jihad? The attack in Kenya by Al-Shabab,
:03:13. > :03:18.taking place, as it did, in a shopping mall, Lord home once again
:03:18. > :03:23.the true horror of terrorism. British Muslim convert some
:03:23. > :03:28.Lewthwaite, dubbed the white widow, married to one of the London 7/7
:03:28. > :03:33.suicide bombers has been linked with the planning of the attack. So far,
:03:33. > :03:41.there is no concrete evidence to support this. However, she is sought
:03:41. > :03:44.for questioning over another alleged terrorism offence, and Interpol has
:03:44. > :03:52.circulated her details, describing her as dangerous. It has been
:03:52. > :03:59.reported that there could be around 50 Britons involved with Al-Shabab.
:03:59. > :04:01.Americans, too. Like other terrorist movements, the organisation uses the
:04:01. > :04:08.internet to glamorise its activities. If you guys only knew
:04:08. > :04:10.how much fun we have over here. This is the real Disneyland. Come here
:04:10. > :04:17.how much fun we have over here. This and join us. I would like to take
:04:17. > :04:19.this opportunity to invite all of the Muslims living in the lands of
:04:19. > :04:23.disbelief to the land of jihad. It the Muslims living in the lands of
:04:23. > :04:28.was the dead of night when he finally departed... There has been
:04:28. > :04:32.action to limit the spread of radical teaching from the UK. Abu
:04:32. > :04:39.Qatada has been deported to Jordan. radical teaching from the UK. Abu
:04:39. > :04:44.Omar Bakri Mohammed is banned from Britain. But the killing of Drummer
:04:44. > :04:48.Lee Rigby on a London street, the foiling of other plots and the
:04:48. > :04:52.continuing resonance of the 7/7 bombings has left a shadow over the
:04:52. > :04:56.Muslim community. Even though prominent leaders and imams in
:04:56. > :05:00.Britain continually speak out against extremism, some critics say
:05:00. > :05:06.that Muslims need to do more to tackle attempts to radicalise young
:05:07. > :05:12.people. So, are Muslims doing enough to
:05:12. > :05:14.prevent radicalisation? It is very difficult. The Muslim community is
:05:14. > :05:17.prevent radicalisation? It is very being bashed in one direction for
:05:17. > :05:23.not doing enough, it feels under fire. You go into mosques, where
:05:23. > :05:27.political discussion is banned. Young people are not encouraged to
:05:27. > :05:34.talk about Iraq, Afghanistan on political issues. And this is wrong.
:05:34. > :05:40.We need more discussion in mosques, in the Muslim community. Before I
:05:40. > :05:44.converted to Islam, I was a practising Christian. The church I
:05:44. > :05:48.went to in St James's Park Piccadilly had a political sermon
:05:48. > :05:59.every Sunday. The microphone was passed around and we discussed
:05:59. > :06:14.things openly. The question for our text vote is that this morning.
:06:14. > :06:21.Peter Hitchens, there is a sense that there is a lot of... A lot of
:06:21. > :06:25.the news media only focus on the negative, and that a lot of coverage
:06:25. > :06:29.in Britain about Muslims is negative. Could that be part of the
:06:29. > :06:33.bigger picture, where young people feel alienated and potentially
:06:33. > :06:37.radicalised? No, Muslims are coloured in this way because news
:06:38. > :06:41.tends to be negative. News is when things go wrong, and that inevitably
:06:41. > :06:45.means when you get covered by newspapers it is when you do things
:06:45. > :06:48.that are wrong. When people do things or say things which are
:06:48. > :06:52.generally considered by an awful lot of people to be outrageous, it is
:06:52. > :06:56.not surprising that the media cover it. I think it is perfectly right
:06:56. > :07:00.for the media to cover it. Islam, if you are a believer, is the core
:07:00. > :07:04.belief of your life. If you are not, it is a philosophical and
:07:04. > :07:07.political position, with which you can disagree. A lot of people do
:07:07. > :07:15.disagree with it and they are quite right to criticise it. Usama, you
:07:15. > :07:20.did take up arms in the name of jihad, against the Soviets. Can you
:07:20. > :07:25.tell us why you did that? Fighting for God and the Muslim nation, I
:07:25. > :07:30.felt very strongly that any cause involving Muslims abroad was my
:07:30. > :07:35.cause. Also, a desire for martyrdom. It was also very exhilarating. It
:07:36. > :07:40.was really cool, as a young man. I was only 19. It was cool to learn to
:07:40. > :07:45.fire a gun and fired them in anger on the front lines, and these
:07:45. > :07:47.spectacular antigens. It was really exhilarating, really inspiring and
:07:47. > :07:53.something that stayed with me for the rest of my life. What made you
:07:53. > :07:58.change your mind? What distinctions did you make about jihad? The Our
:07:58. > :08:03.group sent a dozen fighters to Afghanistan and Bosnia in the 90s.
:08:03. > :08:07.We saw that, jihad, where Muslims were facing ethnic cleansing. But
:08:07. > :08:12.one wing of the movement became Al-Qaeda and started diversifying to
:08:12. > :08:17.attacks on Western civilians and increasingly killing Muslims around
:08:17. > :08:19.the world. I did a lot of soul-searching and realised there
:08:19. > :08:28.was a big difference between ethical, jihad, and the subversion
:08:28. > :08:29.of that where it was used for terrorism and indeterminate attacks
:08:30. > :08:32.on civilians outside of the theatre terrorism and indeterminate attacks
:08:32. > :08:36.of war. You said you found the idea terrorism and indeterminate attacks
:08:36. > :08:40.of martyrdom attractive. Many people would be astounded by that and do
:08:40. > :08:43.not understand the appeal. I think anybody with an ethical position in
:08:43. > :08:51.life, it is perfectly logical to live and die, struggling for noble
:08:51. > :08:54.causes. Better to stick to principles of truth, justice and
:08:54. > :08:59.stand up for what is right. Briefly, where did you get recruited into
:08:59. > :09:04.this group that send people to jihad? In college? At Boston
:09:04. > :09:10.University and College. It is a core teaching of Islam to live a noble
:09:10. > :09:15.life and offer your life to God. Martyrdom is a Greek word that is
:09:15. > :09:20.also in Christian Scriptures. Peter Neumann, it's interesting that it
:09:20. > :09:24.was University, these are still the areas where people worry about
:09:24. > :09:30.radicalisation and why young people are being targeted and vulnerable to
:09:30. > :09:33.it? I called them places of vulnerability. Often people go to
:09:33. > :09:35.university and they feel quite lost. They are quite susceptible to people
:09:35. > :09:42.approaching them, building networks around them and giving them a sense
:09:42. > :09:46.that they belong. I think that is why universities are vulnerable
:09:46. > :09:52.places for radicalisation. But also prisons. Over the last few years we
:09:52. > :09:55.have seen some of that shifting. So there are not radical mosques any
:09:55. > :10:00.more, in the same way that they used to be before 2001. A lot of this
:10:00. > :10:05.happens online now, in addition to the actual places. Peter Hitchens,
:10:05. > :10:08.it is interesting, if one was saying there has been a shutting down of
:10:08. > :10:12.debate around politics in places like mosques. I wonder if, in a way,
:10:12. > :10:15.it is counter-productive and makes it will feel that they go and
:10:16. > :10:21.discuss it in private groups and that is how they get sucked into
:10:21. > :10:29.radicalisation? It raises the issue about radicalisation, being excited
:10:29. > :10:33.about that. Is Google A lot of young people are revolutionaries. I was
:10:33. > :10:37.myself, I believed in the overthrow of the capitalist system by
:10:37. > :10:38.violence. Look at me now. It doesn't necessarily mean you will do
:10:38. > :10:43.violence. Look at me now. It doesn't anything. We don't judge people by
:10:43. > :10:45.what they think or say, unless it is incitement to violence, we judge
:10:45. > :10:49.what they think or say, unless it is them by what they do. I think there
:10:49. > :10:52.is a lot of rubbish talked about radicalisation, trying to reach into
:10:52. > :10:56.people's minds in this fashion. If people want to discuss these
:10:56. > :10:59.things, the more openly they do it, the better. From a security point of
:10:59. > :11:04.view, the more open the better, because then you know what they are.
:11:04. > :11:07.If they do start doing things, you can do something about it. You say
:11:07. > :11:17.you can't change the way people think, but the real concern was
:11:17. > :11:21.about cults in the 70s and 80s, the idea that you had to do programme
:11:21. > :11:27.people, that has been the targeting of people with learning
:11:27. > :11:30.difficulties? You sympathise with the families, but the idea that you
:11:30. > :11:33.can reach into people's minds with the authority of the state and
:11:33. > :11:36.change the way that they think, it ought to be repellent to
:11:36. > :11:38.change the way that they think, it person. It's not something you
:11:38. > :11:44.should think of doing. People change their minds not because of being
:11:44. > :11:47.made to, but because of the experience of life. Coming up
:11:47. > :11:50.against things, finding out what they believed was wrong. They can
:11:50. > :11:53.sometimes be made to change their minds by debate. The thing we are
:11:54. > :11:58.concerned with in a free society is not what people think Tom at what
:11:58. > :12:06.they do. Peter, do you want to take that one first? It is very
:12:06. > :12:10.important, if you want to blow yourself up, you have to be 100%
:12:10. > :12:19.certain that is the right thing to do. That is why I think that you
:12:19. > :12:23.need to provide counter voices. Not to convince people that the point of
:12:23. > :12:25.view is wrong, but maybe insert that 10% element of doubt that will
:12:25. > :12:30.prevent you from blowing yourself up, because you need to be 100%
:12:30. > :12:33.sure. That is why it is important to have this basis for discussion. Not
:12:33. > :12:37.to have people convince each other of each other's point of view, but
:12:37. > :12:41.because it inserts the element of doubt that prevents you from doing
:12:41. > :12:46.so. There is a very important point I would like to get off my chest,
:12:46. > :12:49.first and foremost, if we are arguing with the Muslim criticism of
:12:49. > :12:56.Western society, we should stop arguing with it by measure of force.
:12:56. > :13:01.Saying, in response to what militant Muslims do, what violent Muslims do,
:13:01. > :13:05.we will respond with violence and war is against terror. I always
:13:05. > :13:10.remember, when George W Bush was denouncing, at some point, some
:13:10. > :13:15.terrorist action, he said, date, the Muslims, hate our way of life. In
:13:15. > :13:19.many ways, I hate our way of life as well. There is a lot about modern
:13:19. > :13:24.Western society which is squalid and to generate, seen from a
:13:24. > :13:28.straightforward Christian point of view. There is a critique there.
:13:28. > :13:32.There is a much better answer to it an armed force and secret least
:13:32. > :13:37.techniques and surveillance. That is to argue about what the solution is.
:13:37. > :13:41.The trouble is, our society, having largely abandoned the Christian
:13:41. > :14:24.faith, does not have much of an answer be on saying, we are better,
:14:24. > :14:33.you are worse. People should be able to push out the globe and explore,
:14:33. > :14:40.but they are being pushed out. We did come under the eye of the
:14:40. > :14:41.security services. I think mosques should be places where people can
:14:41. > :14:47.discuss politics. In some cases, should be places where people can
:14:47. > :14:48.extremists have shut down the discourse. Anybody that
:14:48. > :14:49.criticises... approaching them, building networks
:14:49. > :14:58.around them and We discourse. Anybody that
:14:58. > :15:03.criticises... Anybody supporting terrorism, which has happened in a
:15:03. > :15:10.very small number of mosques, people have shutdown that debate.
:15:10. > :15:17.Universities have to do more. It's not just Muslims that need to deal
:15:17. > :15:22.with this problem. I have been called an extremist, I don't support
:15:22. > :15:27.Al-Qaeda. Why would you write to a TV station, saying, don't use this
:15:27. > :15:34.woman, she is an extremist? That was before my time, but I was called an
:15:34. > :15:36.extremist. The whole issue of how Muslims are labelled, I would like
:15:36. > :15:40.extremist. The whole issue of how to bring in another contributor from
:15:40. > :15:44.our London studio. She is a journalist that has been writing for
:15:44. > :15:49.many years over her concerns about radicalisation. You have heard the
:15:49. > :15:50.debate so far. There is interest on whether debate is being shut down
:15:50. > :15:54.debate so far. There is interest on and should be opened up again. Why
:15:54. > :16:02.is there still such a problem with radicalisation? I agree with Usama.
:16:02. > :16:11.It has to be a proper debate. Whenever I write anything, this
:16:11. > :16:17.growing Conservative, with a small C, that has grown across the West,
:16:17. > :16:23.this brand of Islam, if you raise anything they don't like, they shut
:16:23. > :16:36.you down. In what sense? They threaten you. I have had severe
:16:36. > :16:40.problems, for example with the veil. I wrote some columns about it. You
:16:40. > :16:42.should see the correspondence. They are not open to debate. I think it
:16:42. > :16:45.should see the correspondence. They is wrong to say what should Muslims
:16:45. > :16:50.do about this? I think the question should be, what should we all do
:16:50. > :16:54.about it? I understand their anger and I agree with Peter completely on
:16:54. > :17:01.his analysis about these wars. But there is a problem which we never
:17:01. > :17:06.had before. A slow kind of growth of the idea that you can never belong
:17:06. > :17:27.to these societies in which you live. But this is going on in modern
:17:27. > :17:33.Britain? There is this idea that there is only one way of being a
:17:33. > :17:38.Muslim and you can't talk about it. Also, that we don't belong. You get
:17:38. > :17:43.a lot of flak from other people, saying, you don't belong. When we
:17:43. > :17:46.start saying, we don't want to belong, there is a kingdom somewhere
:17:46. > :17:54.that we are now going to belong to an fight to, that is quite twisted.
:17:54. > :17:57.Stay with us. I want to put that issue to an imam and fellow in
:17:57. > :18:05.Islamic studies for the Westminster Institute. The concept of jihad, we
:18:05. > :18:08.know, is conflict and difficult. At the idea of the brotherhood, which
:18:08. > :18:12.could be a positive one, there is a danger that it is also a way of
:18:12. > :18:16.saying that you are never going to be part of a country, you should not
:18:16. > :18:28.have a national allegiance. Somehow the brotherhood of Muslims out there
:18:28. > :18:33.is more important. The notion of a Muslim is standing in relation to
:18:33. > :18:37.God, that is how the Scriptures have articulated it. I never bought a
:18:37. > :18:45.membership card to be a member of the so-called Muslim community. Like
:18:45. > :18:47.every other British citizen, I have multiple allegiances, a fiddle
:18:47. > :18:51.player, a member of a family, a nation and culture. What I am
:18:51. > :18:57.concerned about is a growing political correctness that erodes
:18:57. > :19:01.the political freedom in which we can talk about questions about
:19:01. > :19:07.things such as jihad. There is not a single one of my Jewish colleagues,
:19:07. > :19:10.for example, who was and thoroughly embarrassed, or Christian
:19:10. > :19:14.colleagues, who are not embarrassed about certain passages in the Bible
:19:14. > :19:20.that promote violence, slavery, child marriage and stoning. In a
:19:20. > :19:23.culture such as ours, which is one of intellectual freedom, we need to
:19:23. > :19:29.have the ability to discuss these questions in relation to Islam and
:19:29. > :19:34.to Muslims, and to what the Koran to say. We don't believe in aid desert
:19:34. > :19:41.society of brutal vendettas and blood feuds. Our texts need to be
:19:41. > :19:45.revisited and revised in connection to the societies in which we live, a
:19:45. > :19:49.plural society with multiple belongings. I am worried that we
:19:49. > :19:52.have an interfaith industry, taxpayer funded. We talk about
:19:52. > :19:57.challenging extremism, but we get millions of pounds in taxpayer money
:19:57. > :20:02.to organisations like the Interfaith Network For The United Kingdom on
:20:02. > :20:09.whose membership includes groups like the Islamic foundation, the
:20:09. > :20:14.Muslim Foundation Of Great Britain, and there is a report coming out
:20:14. > :20:18.that outlines these things. I think we need to look at the
:20:18. > :20:21.contradictions in these matters, about intellectual freedom and free
:20:21. > :20:28.debate about core theological questions. What is your reaction? I
:20:28. > :20:34.wish I could go and speak to him. He speaks for so many of us. One of
:20:34. > :20:38.those awful things is that what he has had the courage to say, even I
:20:38. > :20:43.sometimes find I don't have the courage to say. Let's look at all of
:20:43. > :20:50.these things afresh. But there is this shut down. When Muslims
:20:50. > :20:56.complain that debates are being shut down, they are right to complain.
:20:56. > :21:03.But Muslims are also shutting down the kind of debate we need to have.
:21:03. > :21:09.Usama, the column foundation, which you now work for, it very much works
:21:09. > :21:13.on counterterrorism and helping people with a background in
:21:13. > :21:17.radicalisation. Is there something about converts that makes them more
:21:17. > :21:21.vulnerable to extremist ideology? We talked a lot about problems in eight
:21:21. > :21:31.within Muslim debate. But conversion is part of the issue, isn't it? Not
:21:31. > :21:35.necessarily. But some comrades got into terrorism very quickly. The
:21:35. > :21:41.shoe bomber, one of the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich suspect in
:21:41. > :21:45.Bristol, or attempted bombings at least. One of the problem is that
:21:45. > :21:48.the Muslim unity has to deal with is making the mosques more welcome for
:21:48. > :21:56.converts. Many, many converts, plain that mosques are unlike Pakistani or
:21:56. > :22:01.Bangladeshi clubs, if you like, there is a strong cultural element
:22:01. > :22:09.where Western converts do not really feel welcome. If they are going to
:22:09. > :22:12.marginalised, they might be more vulnerable to extremist groups,
:22:12. > :22:15.especially as they don't know much about Islam. What are your thoughts
:22:16. > :22:21.about the discussion we have just heard? One can often encounter
:22:21. > :22:24.intelligent, liberal minded Muslims living in the West, who take this
:22:24. > :22:27.sort of attitude towards their faith. But the problem is, how much
:22:27. > :22:32.sort of attitude towards their do they speak for the religion as a
:22:32. > :22:39.whole? I travelled to wear one of the great Muslim universities is in
:22:40. > :22:43.India, Durban, and I spoke to one of the teachers. This thought that the
:22:43. > :22:50.Koran can be changed, you can go to the Reformation like the Christian
:22:50. > :22:54.one, is that possible? They said, absolutely not, it is the unmediated
:22:54. > :22:58.Word of God, it is not possible to change it. One has to turn to
:22:58. > :23:02.Muslims and say, this is what you believe, you are, in a way, stuck
:23:02. > :23:04.with it. If you want to debate about what religious precepts people
:23:04. > :23:08.should follow, then I would say the what religious precepts people
:23:08. > :23:12.great debate that has to be had in this country, and ought to be before
:23:12. > :23:16.it is too late, is whether we should accept Islam as being the
:23:16. > :23:21.predominant religion in the world, which is possible in the next
:23:21. > :23:25.century, or if we should rediscover Christian roots, argue for them and
:23:25. > :23:29.say to our Muslim brothers and sisters that this is a Christian
:23:29. > :23:33.country and that is the rule that we have decided on. The basis of our
:23:33. > :23:42.civilisation. You have to accept that as well. I just want to put
:23:42. > :23:46.that to the doctor, there is a fundamental non-negotiation about
:23:46. > :23:50.the status of Islamic belief. That is the biggest problem we have got?
:23:50. > :23:56.I don't think that is a tall true. is the biggest problem we have got?
:23:56. > :24:00.We have a practice of engagement by scholars from the Jewish, Christian
:24:01. > :24:04.and Islamic traditions, looking deep into our text, deep into the
:24:04. > :24:07.vastness and contradictory nature of our traditions. We're not actually
:24:07. > :24:12.vastness and contradictory nature of that different. Text 's contain
:24:12. > :24:18.traditions that are profoundly uplifting. The Abraham extraditions
:24:18. > :24:23.promoted worship of one God, ethical codes, the basis for behaviours for
:24:23. > :24:27.promoted worship of one God, ethical people that have been deeply
:24:27. > :24:32.disturbing, however, as well. They have promoted violence and genocide.
:24:32. > :24:35.It can be looked at together in a shared, scriptural conversation.
:24:35. > :24:41.That is exactly the kind of work we are doing. I am concerned about the
:24:41. > :24:44.interfaith industry of saying nice things we don't really mean about
:24:44. > :24:53.people we don't really like. It's promoting certain Muslim groups like
:24:53. > :24:59.the MCB. In reality, they don't represent them. Only 6% of Muslims
:24:59. > :25:04.survey to felt that the MCB represented them in any way, shape
:25:04. > :25:13.or form. There is a silent majority of Muslims. I want to bring in Peter
:25:13. > :25:19.Newman. It's not just about the content of the Islamic faith. What
:25:19. > :25:30.draws people into radical extremism and terrorist groups, it is the
:25:30. > :25:37.sense of brotherhood people get. The idea rock belonging to something.
:25:37. > :25:45.It's important to have that discussion about the content of
:25:45. > :25:56.faith. A 17-year-old is not an expert. We don't have somebody from
:25:56. > :26:00.the Muslim Council of Britain on to defend their ideology. I will let
:26:00. > :26:03.you back in on this. There is an issue, if there is a politically
:26:03. > :26:06.correct attempt to shut down discussion, is there also an issue
:26:06. > :26:10.where Muslims portray themselves as victims? In Syria, where they want
:26:10. > :26:14.Western intervention, war in Iraq, victims? In Syria, where they want
:26:14. > :26:16.where they should not have intervened? People always portray
:26:16. > :26:19.themselves as victims if they want intervened? People always portray
:26:19. > :26:26.to get help. I'm not saying he is insincere in what he says about
:26:26. > :26:33.Islam. And we do face this problem. It is most strongly shown in the
:26:33. > :26:36.treatment of women in Islam. Their legal position, the way in which
:26:36. > :26:46.treatment of women in Islam. Their they are increasingly pressured, as
:26:46. > :26:50.Yasmin correctly said, to take the veil. It is not going away, it is
:26:50. > :26:55.getting stronger. And you cannot believe the Islamic faith, it is an
:26:55. > :26:59.absolute offence. There is no expert. A fundamental thing which
:26:59. > :27:02.does not change. The issue that Yasmin was making, to some extent,
:27:02. > :27:09.is that there is a growing conservatism in the public voice of
:27:09. > :27:19.is love. Muslims who leave the faith say that they have to keep a secret.
:27:19. > :27:23.Do you accept there is a problem that you cannot leave the faith
:27:23. > :27:35.without it being dangerous? They have been told there is. You
:27:35. > :27:45.don't think there is a problem? Ask a conservative, they don't represent
:27:45. > :27:53.the majority. You may not be aware of this but the Reformation has been
:27:53. > :27:58.going on for a century and a half. It was repealed by the Ottomans. We
:27:58. > :28:04.will hear about the Ottomans later. Britain in the 21st-century, what
:28:04. > :28:10.did you want to say? I would like to pick on several things that have
:28:10. > :28:15.been said. Interfaith, talking about excluding groups, he mentioned a
:28:15. > :28:31.couple of Muslim groups, a Hindu group. That is when you are heading
:28:31. > :28:38.down. We have got growing concerns about British Muslim terrorists in
:28:38. > :28:43.instances abroad. There are two separate issues. The fact religions
:28:43. > :28:50.have become more conservative is not only true for Islam, it is true for
:28:50. > :28:54.Jewish Orthodox, evangelicals. It has been a worldwide trend, there
:28:54. > :28:57.are reasons for that. That is a problem for society. A separate
:28:57. > :29:03.problem which is about terrorism. The two things don't always are not
:29:03. > :29:08.necessarily connected. I would like to bring in, I would like to move
:29:08. > :29:19.the discussion on two solutions if we are looking for a way out. We can
:29:19. > :29:27.speak to the author of Islam without Extremes. You have been discussing
:29:27. > :29:30.how radicalisation is making summary take up the jihad. Is there a
:29:30. > :29:34.difference between people going to places like Syria and joining groups
:29:34. > :29:41.like Al-Shabab, is a difference between them?
:29:41. > :29:47.There is a difference, I don't live in the UK, I live in Turkey and
:29:47. > :29:51.there is a difference between a Muslim minority in a non-Muslim
:29:51. > :29:59.society and the communal tensions created by that might lead to Morag
:29:59. > :30:08.-- radicalisation. I hear some voices in the UK that are parallel
:30:08. > :30:24.in Turkey. I agree that apostasy is a problem in mainstream tradition.
:30:24. > :30:35.As for jihad, the concept should not be demonised, we should actually
:30:35. > :30:38.criticise groups like Al-Shabab and Al-Qaeda for violating the rules of
:30:38. > :30:46.jihad. Article Islamist. During in the middle a test -- during the
:30:46. > :30:51.middle ages, there was a big difference between combatants and
:30:51. > :31:04.noncombatants. Noncombatants were considered literal, legitimate
:31:04. > :31:11.targets. They are violating the rules of jihad.
:31:11. > :31:16.Can I bring Yasmin back in? I cannot help feeling I have heard this
:31:16. > :31:20.argument about Al-Qaeda are not actually good Muslims, but it is not
:31:20. > :31:24.necessarily helping in terms of young people getting radicalised.
:31:24. > :31:28.What is the solution? It is a very clever trick. Whenever
:31:28. > :31:36.Muslims do anything wrong, let's face it, many Moslems do a lot of
:31:36. > :31:38.bad things -- Muslims. When I talk about them people say they are not
:31:38. > :31:44.bad things -- Muslims. When I talk real Muslims. Once you have started
:31:44. > :31:48.saying they are not real Muslims you have disengaged with a problem. It
:31:48. > :31:57.is a difficult problem but I come from a community which is ostracised
:31:57. > :32:04.everywhere by Muslims, we are not considered part of the real Islam,
:32:04. > :32:07.these schisms. Nowadays there is this terrible problem, what happens
:32:07. > :32:14.is the surest -- these purists deny this terrible problem, what happens
:32:14. > :32:20.all responsibility for the bad things that are done.
:32:20. > :32:26.I want the panel to respond on solutions to radicalisation. What
:32:27. > :32:32.works? Muslims need to recapture the spirit about faith in God. What do
:32:32. > :32:40.you do that is helping young people turn their back on it? We are
:32:40. > :32:45.challenging the narratives. Misusing scripted to do that. We want to
:32:45. > :32:51.point out the diversity of thought right from the beginning and
:32:51. > :32:54.encourage people to have a debate. By closing down debate in
:32:54. > :33:02.universities. That is not true. You need to open up the universities to
:33:02. > :33:06.a real, full debate and bring in so-called extremists. University
:33:06. > :33:11.students are not idiots. If somebody is standing up spouting nonsense
:33:11. > :33:18.they are not going to be sucked in. We have to give our young people
:33:18. > :33:22.more credit and explore all the avenues. One tried to blow up a
:33:22. > :33:29.plane. One example, you go on about avenues. One tried to blow up a
:33:29. > :33:38.converts to Islam, there are more than 100,000 converts to Islam in
:33:38. > :33:43.Britain since 9/11. The majority of females are not going out to blow
:33:43. > :34:00.ourselves up yet that is the way the perception has. How do you tell
:34:00. > :34:05.Al-Qaeda they don't represent Muslims? There is no leader. How do
:34:05. > :34:18.you do this thing that is supposed to change everything? My argument
:34:18. > :34:24.is, they are real Muslims, they are fanatic Muslims. That is the
:34:24. > :34:28.problem. They don't represent the majority of Muslims. The Internet
:34:28. > :34:37.that a and of Islam has been detached even from tradition. In
:34:37. > :34:41.particular they also believe in a certain vision of the world in which
:34:41. > :34:47.every conflict in the modern world they believe is a conspiracy by the
:34:48. > :34:54.West. I am afraid we have to leave it there, we don't have much time.
:34:54. > :35:04.They will say the same about him, that is the trouble. Neither of them
:35:04. > :35:11.can agree. Solutions? The man who tried to blow up the plane, open and
:35:11. > :35:25.free debate is the best way to deal with things in modern society. Can
:35:25. > :35:28.we stop using Islamophobia. Finally, if our society is to defend
:35:28. > :35:32.ourselves against this, the rediscovery of the beauty and force
:35:32. > :35:40.of the Christian religion might be a good start. Challenging the
:35:40. > :35:47.narrative should happen not only in universities and prisons, but also
:35:47. > :35:53.online. A lot of experienced voices are not counted. Traditional groups
:35:53. > :35:58.are not online and doing the work where young people are. Thanks to
:35:58. > :36:06.you all for this considered discussion. The question is, are
:36:06. > :36:18.Muslims doing enough to prevent radicalisation of young people? You
:36:18. > :36:25.can only vote once. You have around 20 minutes before
:36:25. > :36:29.the vote closes. There are 18 million families in the
:36:29. > :36:35.UK, but only 12 million married couples. Weddings have almost halved
:36:35. > :36:40.since the 1980s whilst the number of cohabiting couples has doubled. The
:36:40. > :36:44.government has just signalled its support for tying the knot by
:36:44. > :36:48.announcing tax breaks for couples, with the Prime Minister describing
:36:48. > :36:52.marriage as the commitment which binds families. Does the decline of
:36:52. > :36:59.marriage mean it is a thing of the past?
:36:59. > :37:02.Fewer people may be getting married than ever before, but it still
:37:02. > :37:07.remains a multi-billion pound industry in the UK. At a wedding
:37:07. > :37:13.show in Belfast this weekend, there were plenty of things to splash out
:37:14. > :37:18.on. Many couples were planning for their big day, and not surprisingly,
:37:18. > :37:24.few felt marriage was a vanishing institution. I would not consider
:37:24. > :37:28.marriage a thing of the past, because when you find your true
:37:28. > :37:33.love, you want to spend your life with them. I believe in it, and it
:37:33. > :37:37.is arranging everything, and having a day out with your friends and
:37:37. > :37:44.family is amazing. I am a Christian, so marriage is the next
:37:44. > :37:48.step. If I had my way, I probably wouldn't get married, just live
:37:48. > :37:53.together and get happy. But my fiance felt it was important to her.
:37:53. > :37:59.I love her and I want to be with her. That is why we are getting
:37:59. > :38:04.married. Cohabitation is now the fastest growing family type in
:38:05. > :38:09.Britain. However, it may not be the happiest, according to a recent
:38:09. > :38:13.study by the Marriage Foundation, which found couples with children
:38:13. > :38:17.study by the Marriage Foundation, who are cohabiting are more likely
:38:17. > :38:25.to split up than those that are married. I do feel more people are
:38:25. > :38:30.living together first, having families and then deciding to tie
:38:30. > :38:31.the knot and get married. The tax breaks planned by the government
:38:31. > :38:33.the knot and get married. The tax were welcomed, but most people did
:38:33. > :38:39.the knot and get married. The tax not see them as an incentive to get
:38:39. > :38:44.married. In terms of tax breaks, when was the last time you got
:38:44. > :38:48.involved in something where you thought, let's get the government
:38:48. > :38:54.involved in this? I don't think the government needs to be involved.
:38:54. > :38:57.They shouldn't be any incentive to get married, if you love each other
:38:57. > :39:00.and want to get married, that should be sufficient. I never wanted any
:39:00. > :39:09.and want to get married, that should incentive to get married. The reason
:39:09. > :39:16.is I loved her. Right answer. A fascinating insight from couples in
:39:16. > :39:19.Belfast. Does marriage still serve a purpose or has it become an
:39:19. > :39:25.expensive piece of paper that is no longer relevant. You can take part
:39:25. > :39:31.in the debate by webcam. I am joined by Tess Finch Lees. A lot of people
:39:31. > :39:37.are concerned the idea of marriage is declining. Historically, people
:39:37. > :39:42.got married because they thought it was better if they were going to
:39:42. > :39:46.have children. Outcomes are better the children in married households.
:39:46. > :39:55.That is not because of the marriage themselves, but it is because they
:39:55. > :39:58.have higher incomes. Poverty is a great determinant of children's
:39:59. > :40:07.outcome with 3 million children living in poverty in the UK and 2.5
:40:07. > :40:12.million in fuel poverty. I think that is more prevalent debate on a
:40:12. > :40:20.piece of paper. Marriage is just an irrelevance to raising families?
:40:20. > :40:25.What we had in the 1960s was an eruption of adult selfishness.
:40:25. > :40:33.People saying, I want to live the life the way I want to live it. Some
:40:33. > :40:41.dubbed by that awful song, Please Release Me, Let Me Go. The whole
:40:41. > :40:44.idea was that adults from then on could indulge their own wishes. If
:40:45. > :40:51.they felt they were constrained by an unhappy marriage, go and get a
:40:51. > :41:00.divorce because the 1969 Are Forced Law Reform Act made it easier to get
:41:00. > :41:06.divorced. It transformed our society from being a basically Protestants,
:41:06. > :41:16.self-denying society to a self indulgent society. Everybody had a
:41:16. > :41:21.lot of fun. The only people who suffered with children first of all
:41:21. > :41:25.from the divorce of their parents, and now increasingly from having
:41:25. > :41:30.fatherless families where they don't have the benefits of having two
:41:30. > :41:36.parents chew -- throughout their childhood. I think children are more
:41:36. > :41:42.resilient than we give them credit for. Coming out of the Second World
:41:42. > :41:44.War, there were vast numbers of single mothers because they were
:41:44. > :41:53.widowed, who brought up families the single mothers because they were
:41:53. > :41:56.best way they could. But having said that, as a Muslim, half of my
:41:56. > :42:09.religion is based on getting married. I was going to ask.
:42:09. > :42:21.strong family values. In an ideal, perfect world, the family is all
:42:21. > :42:29.important. It does say marriage is the bedrock of the family and
:42:29. > :42:35.cohabitation is not an option? Not among practising or observing
:42:35. > :42:39.Muslims. Do you think it is right? Do you think marriage in modern
:42:39. > :42:45.Britain is obsolete or unnecessary. Or it is not how you need to define
:42:46. > :42:50.a successful family? I don't think marriage is obsolete. It is still
:42:50. > :42:55.very important in all religious communities. But I don't then the
:42:55. > :43:05.whole fabric of society would suddenly collapse if some... I
:43:05. > :43:08.cannot speak for the Muslim community, but if other
:43:08. > :43:15.communities, if marriage was not such a requirement. The fabric of
:43:15. > :43:18.society gradually crumbles. That is what we have been watching the last
:43:18. > :43:24.society gradually crumbles. That is 50 years. But the thought that
:43:24. > :43:30.marriage is a piece of paper and holds them together so therefore be
:43:30. > :43:35.happy is ludicrous. I grew up in a country where divorce was not legal
:43:35. > :43:38.happy is ludicrous. I grew up in a until 15 years ago. Domestic
:43:38. > :43:45.violence, child abuse, people were miserable and living in war zones.
:43:45. > :43:51.Why now should we say marriage is irrelevant if it has all the
:43:51. > :43:54.safeguards. People say cohabitation has all the disadvantages of
:43:54. > :44:01.marriage, and not the advantages. Quite the opposite will stop we know
:44:01. > :44:06.marriage in itself is no panacea for happiness. And it is not. The idea
:44:06. > :44:11.we judge people 's choices and people who are co-inhabiting a less
:44:11. > :44:16.superior than those who are married. The contract that is important is
:44:16. > :44:21.not a legal contract, it is the psychological contract. That is
:44:21. > :44:26.true, and that is why referring to marriage as a piece of paper is a
:44:26. > :44:30.nonsense. It is a promise. It is a personal promise and an oath in the
:44:30. > :44:39.Christian concept to stay married for life. It is about intent. This
:44:39. > :44:42.stuff we always get about domestic violence and child abuse. Does
:44:42. > :44:46.anybody believe there is no domestic violence and child abuse in
:44:46. > :44:52.unmarried households? On the contrary. Children are more at risk
:44:52. > :45:03.in a household where there are serial boyfriends. The point is,
:45:03. > :45:15.marriage itself is a panacea... It is better than the alternative. I
:45:15. > :45:23.want to bring in a Reverend who is an Anglican priest. Do you think it
:45:23. > :45:29.is an irrelevance? People know the cost of them has gone up and that is
:45:29. > :45:35.what people talk about. They are very expensive will stop it is an
:45:35. > :45:40.extraordinary amount of money. I would like to bring back the
:45:40. > :45:44.romantic idea of marriage into this discussion. Whatever the implication
:45:44. > :45:53.is, this is someone committing to their life. You cannot put a price
:45:53. > :45:56.tag on that commitment to someone who will care for you when you are
:45:56. > :46:01.sick and dying, you will be by your bedside. Not just when it is fun and
:46:01. > :46:06.convenience, but for the rest of your life. That is an amazing thing
:46:06. > :46:21.to promise to you whether it is through marriage or civil
:46:21. > :46:27.partnership. You will have heard that it can be stigmatising. If you
:46:27. > :46:33.look at this legislation, what it is doing is benefiting at partner who
:46:33. > :46:37.stay at home with their children or stay at home because they are
:46:38. > :46:42.working part-time. It allows women to make a choice as to whether they
:46:42. > :46:46.go out to work or stay at home and looked after children. What is
:46:46. > :46:53.important in society is we value everyone, especially mums who stay
:46:53. > :46:57.at home and debate -- give their lives to cooking, cleaning and
:46:57. > :47:02.looking at the young children. It may sound it is only £3 85 a week,
:47:02. > :47:10.but it is an important statement society is making. This is the tax
:47:10. > :47:16.break you are talking about. I would like to bring in a campaign from
:47:17. > :47:20.Don't Judge My Family. I am interested in this idea there should
:47:20. > :47:24.be no link made between marriage and success, yet we know all of the
:47:24. > :47:28.evidence shows the more educated you are the more likely you are to get
:47:28. > :47:33.married. Children tend to want it, don't they? I know Alastair Campbell
:47:33. > :47:46.says his children wishes he would get married. The government is
:47:46. > :47:54.planning to spend £700 million on just a few couples. Single parents,
:47:54. > :47:59.widows, it is ruminate against cohabiting couples, it also describe
:47:59. > :48:04.innate against many marriages, including those were both couples go
:48:04. > :48:10.out to work, even on minimum wage. Lots of proponents of this openly
:48:10. > :48:16.admit they think it would encourage people to marry, that it will
:48:16. > :48:20.encourage them to stay married. Of the married couple that get it, only
:48:20. > :48:26.one in four of them have children. I'm sorry, we have to leave it
:48:26. > :48:35.there, because the quality of the line is bad. So there is concern
:48:35. > :48:39.that if it actually makes a difference. It is the Tory party
:48:39. > :48:58.shoring up their vote, of course. Is your view Rosie Thomas to -- a rosy
:48:58. > :49:02.domestic ideal? My ideal is the partners making a commitment to
:49:02. > :49:06.behave in equal ways. It is clear it is a marriage of equal human beings.
:49:06. > :49:10.It is the constitution, as far as I am concerned, of private life. There
:49:10. > :49:19.is no reason to assume that marriage is some kind of tyranny. What you
:49:19. > :49:23.have to do in return is pretty considerable, I have to tell you. I
:49:23. > :49:26.think we have to agree to disagree on this one, as to whether it is a
:49:26. > :49:29.thing of the past. I don't think anyone is saying it is a thing of
:49:29. > :49:36.the past. But it is a matter of choice. If you are talking about
:49:36. > :49:42.romance, turning it into cost analysis undermines it completely.
:49:42. > :49:48.Can I read some viewer comments? You and, I comest to love, honour and
:49:48. > :49:55.bake until death parts is, I've been married for 50 years and I am
:49:55. > :50:00.looking after my wife now. Another says that it is a religious concept,
:50:00. > :50:04.making a commitment does not need paperwork, nor should it cost. You
:50:04. > :50:09.have been voting on the question we set at the start of the programme.
:50:09. > :50:15.Our Muslims doing enough to prevent the radicalisation of young people?
:50:15. > :50:21.-- our Muslims. We will bring you the results at the end of the show.
:50:21. > :50:30.Tonight sees the start of a landmark series on BBC Two, The Ottomans:
:50:30. > :50:34.Britain's Muslim Emperors. Across three programmes, Rageh Omar
:50:34. > :50:38.describes how they dominated one of the world was not the biggest
:50:38. > :50:45.empires, which survived for 600 years. The impact still has
:50:45. > :50:49.important resonance today. Today he gives us a flavour of what is to
:50:49. > :50:53.come in his new series. From here in Istanbul, the glories
:50:53. > :51:04.of the Ottoman Empire came to match those of ancient Rome. Wow, look at
:51:04. > :51:12.this. This is the view that the Ottoman sultans would have seen. And
:51:12. > :51:18.it simply takes your breath away. The Ottomans ruled over a
:51:18. > :51:20.multi-faith Empire. There were Christians, Jews, Muslims. And yet,
:51:20. > :51:26.the rulers themselves, The Ottomans, Christians, Jews, Muslims. And yet,
:51:26. > :51:33.it was not that important to them as rulers. What they cared about was
:51:33. > :51:36.power and maintaining their empire. Therefore, they were able to treat
:51:36. > :51:46.each religion with a sense of tolerance in April two order to keep
:51:46. > :51:52.the Empire together. Suleiman the Magnificent was perhaps the greatest
:51:52. > :51:55.of all the Ottoman sultans. In the 19th century, he was arguably the
:51:55. > :51:59.most powerful man in the world. But that was not only the reason why he
:51:59. > :52:03.was so important. He expressed his power in some of the most
:52:03. > :52:09.breathtaking architecture you are ever likely to see. The capture of
:52:09. > :52:16.two cities unlocked a vast lands. Defeating the man look Empire gave
:52:16. > :52:21.them lands extending to the ancient city of Jerusalem. Taking Cairo gave
:52:21. > :52:27.them territory as far as the holiest sites of Islam, Mecca and Medina.
:52:27. > :52:34.They were sultans, but they also gave themselves an additional
:52:34. > :52:35.title. In doing so, they made themselves not just the political
:52:35. > :52:40.leaders of the Muslim world, but the themselves not just the political
:52:40. > :52:42.spiritual leaders as well. But were they, themselves, avowedly
:52:42. > :52:45.practising Muslims? No. None of the they, themselves, avowedly
:52:45. > :52:49.Ottoman sultans, in 600 years of they, themselves, avowedly
:52:49. > :52:53.history, ever made the pilgrimage to Mecca, save one towards the end.
:52:53. > :53:09.Most of them drank alcohol. They presided over Koreans, hareems, to
:53:09. > :53:16.provide heirs to the sultans. They did not live a very Islamic life.
:53:16. > :53:20.Constantinople was the last Christian stronghold facing a Muslim
:53:20. > :53:29.world. It was set to become the scene of a great clash of religions.
:53:29. > :53:33.world. It was set to become the In the West, the defeat of
:53:33. > :53:38.Constantinople is known as the fall. Here, it is the conquest. It
:53:38. > :53:42.was more than a strategic game. The taking of this city would be
:53:42. > :53:48.remembered for centuries as the moment of Muslim triumph. In the
:53:48. > :53:52.remembered for centuries as the Christian world, it was a calamity.
:53:52. > :53:56.The great collapse. It was seen as being the ending of this ancient
:53:56. > :54:04.Christian city. The purging, if you like, of the great symbol of
:54:04. > :54:08.Orthodox Christianity in what was Constantinople. Its conversion into
:54:08. > :54:15.a mosque, Friday prayers being held there, the whole building being
:54:15. > :54:24.stripped of all its icon on... Iconography. It is almost a clash of
:54:24. > :54:29.civilisations. There are two central factors for me that explain the
:54:29. > :54:32.implosion of the Ottoman Empire that lasted for 600 years. One is that
:54:32. > :54:36.they failed to keep pace with technological development is in the
:54:36. > :54:40.West. They were no longer a modern power. Secondly, the rise of the
:54:40. > :54:46.idea of nationalism. Here was the Ottoman Empire, multiethnic,
:54:46. > :54:51.multi-faith, suddenly, all of their subjects wanted to be bold variant,
:54:51. > :54:56.Arabic or Romanian. Suddenly, you found all of these rebellions
:54:56. > :55:02.spreading in the Empire, were once people were willing to live the
:55:02. > :55:08.multi-faith life. If you look around the world, where are the global
:55:08. > :55:14.hotspots? Israel and Palestine, Syria, Egypt. Other countries in
:55:14. > :55:20.North Africa. The Balkans, Bosnia, Serbia. These were all in the
:55:20. > :55:26.Ottoman Empire. The way that the Ottoman Empire collapsed, the nature
:55:26. > :55:30.in which it was done, if left lasting political scars that are
:55:30. > :55:34.still being felt to this day. It is another reason why learning about
:55:34. > :55:41.it, finding out about it, is so important to our world today.
:55:41. > :55:50.Here is an empire that started in medieval times, in the 1300 Best. It
:55:50. > :55:56.lived for 600 years. By the time the rule of The Ottomans came to an
:55:56. > :55:59.end, we were in the industrial age. Here is this empire that spans the
:55:59. > :56:03.industrial age and ends at a time when there are aeroplanes, steam
:56:03. > :56:05.engines and the modern world. That is an amazing period of history for
:56:05. > :56:17.one dynasty to rule. The Ottomans: Europe's Muslim
:56:17. > :56:21.Emperors is on BBC Two. We can bring you the result of the viewer vote.
:56:21. > :56:28.We asked if Muslims are doing enough to prevent the radicalisation of
:56:28. > :56:34.young people. 96% said no. It is always just a snapshot. There is a
:56:34. > :56:38.big image problem? It is mainly an image problem. But it is a problem
:56:38. > :56:43.for wider society as well, not just Muslims. Muslims can deal with the
:56:43. > :56:48.religious aspect. But a question like that puts Muslims apart from
:56:48. > :56:51.the rest of western society, which is not writing itself. We are all
:56:51. > :56:56.part of British society and it is for all of society to deal with
:56:56. > :57:00.this. Can you ever really do enough to prevent the horrible things that
:57:00. > :57:04.have been done in the name of Islam? I think you can't. Obviously more
:57:04. > :57:08.can and should be done. Whether it should take the form of suppression
:57:08. > :57:14.of freedom of speech is another matter. Your focus would be on what?
:57:14. > :57:18.I think we have to argue for our own society and for its virtues, to
:57:18. > :57:20.remember what they are. They are fundamentally Christian. Until we do
:57:20. > :57:27.that, we haven't got much of an argument against Islam. Again, it is
:57:27. > :57:29.down to discussion, opening up the discussion and remembering that
:57:29. > :57:36.universities are places where there should be all sorts of discourse.
:57:36. > :57:40.Not trying to control freedom of speech, trying to push one
:57:40. > :57:43.narrative. Bring everyone in for a full discussion. I might be able to
:57:43. > :57:47.narrative. Bring everyone in for a get in one or two of your comments.
:57:47. > :57:51.Nick says, radicals hate mainstream muslins are as much as anybody else.
:57:51. > :57:53.What are mainstream muslins supposed to do? Daniel says that British
:57:53. > :57:56.Muslims are segregating themselves to do? Daniel says that British
:57:56. > :58:00.from society, they believe non-believers are wrong in their
:58:00. > :58:04.leave. Another, they are doing every thing they can, but the root causes
:58:04. > :58:08.of radicalisation, Western governments, is beyond control.
:58:08. > :58:11.Another says, we don't hear what they are doing to prevent
:58:11. > :58:16.radicalisation so it seems they are not. Thanks for everybody who took
:58:16. > :58:23.part through webcam, and thanks to my guests in the studio. Do not text
:58:23. > :58:26.or call any more, the lines are closed. But you can continue the
:58:26. > :58:28.conversation online. There are links on the website. That is it for this
:58:29. > :58:30.week. Goodbye.