:00:19. > :00:27.Tommy Robinson, founder of the EDL, has quit the organisation. Welcomed
:00:27. > :00:30.by some, greeted with scepticism and sometimes anger. Tommy Robinson
:00:30. > :00:32.himself says he wants to pursue a more constructive approach to the
:00:32. > :00:37.Muslim community, but one critic said he would be singing the same
:00:37. > :00:41.song in a different key. An upcoming BBC documentary has been following
:00:41. > :00:45.Tommy Robinson as he met leading UK Muslims and came up with his
:00:45. > :00:48.decision. Some background now, and a warning that there is flag
:00:48. > :00:57.photography in this report you are about to see. -- flash photography.
:00:57. > :01:01.Tommy Robinson, who uses that name as an alias, formed the English
:01:01. > :01:06.Defence League with others in 2009 in his hometown of Luton because, he
:01:06. > :01:14.says, they were concerned about what they called growing Islamic
:01:14. > :01:17.radicalisation. The movement staged a demonstration around the country,
:01:18. > :01:18.which sometimes ended with clashes with police or antifascist
:01:18. > :01:33.demonstrators. There is no such thing in this
:01:33. > :01:34.country as... Robinson led from the front and became the most visible
:01:34. > :01:39.face of the EDL. But he claims his front and became the most visible
:01:39. > :01:48.initial enthusiasm became tempered by the actions of some who attach
:01:48. > :01:53.themselves to the movement. We will take our shoes off year and then go
:01:53. > :01:55.through. Robinson agreed to take part in a BBC documentary in which
:01:55. > :02:00.he was introduced to members of the part in a BBC documentary in which
:02:00. > :02:05.Muslim community. Muslims are intimidated, Muslims are in fear?
:02:05. > :02:09.Our country is in fear, people are in fear, daughters are in fear,
:02:09. > :02:13.armed forces are in fear. That was followed by his surprise news
:02:14. > :02:19.conference on Tuesday, staged by the Quilliam Foundation, an organisation
:02:19. > :02:22.which seeks to counter extremism. He and his cousin, Kevin Carroll,
:02:22. > :02:28.another EDL leader, announced they were quitting the movement. I
:02:28. > :02:31.apologise for the fact that what I represented and said has not
:02:31. > :02:36.resonated individually with Muslims. represented and said has not
:02:36. > :02:39.I do not hate Muslims. The EDL went ahead with a planned rally in
:02:39. > :02:44.Bradford yesterday, despite losing Tommy Robinson. But it was a low-key
:02:44. > :02:49.affair, with more police there than demonstrators.
:02:49. > :02:52.So does the EDL represent a constituency with a voice that needs
:02:52. > :02:59.to be taken into account? Do you think it does? In a democracy, all
:02:59. > :03:03.of us have the right to freedom of expression. The EDL have that
:03:03. > :03:10.right, and they have been exercising that right for four years. I would
:03:10. > :03:15.argue that they have been very busy fomenting divisions in our society,
:03:15. > :03:20.and in particular targeting bigotry towards British Muslims. That is not
:03:20. > :03:25.acceptable. The question for our text vote, does the EDL represent a
:03:25. > :03:29.view that needs to be heard? Text the word vote followed by yes or
:03:29. > :03:33.no, text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can only
:03:33. > :03:40.vote once, go online to Bolt for free. Visit the website to read full
:03:40. > :03:45.terms and conditions. Tommy, you will know a lot of people are very
:03:45. > :03:48.cynical about you saying you are not a racist. Given some of the things
:03:48. > :03:52.the EDL has done over the past few years, and that you have been
:03:52. > :03:57.leading them on at times. Piping for four and a half years we have been
:03:57. > :04:00.battling from within to make it an all inclusive organisation with
:04:00. > :04:06.everybody that is threatened by the problems of Islamist ideology. -- I
:04:06. > :04:09.think. From the outside, people have been telling anti-racist and Nazis
:04:09. > :04:12.that this organisation is for them, by labelling it as a racist and Nazi
:04:12. > :04:18.that this organisation is for them, organisation, which it is not. Since
:04:18. > :04:27.I have left, you had a homosexual speaker at the demonstration, you
:04:27. > :04:30.had the people wishing to continue the foundation. It has been a
:04:30. > :04:34.struggle for me as the public face of it. I am not willing to be a
:04:34. > :04:37.public face for some things that go on at the demonstrations. With a
:04:37. > :04:41.working class voice that has been created, it must be listened to.
:04:41. > :04:44.Yes, there has been problems, but people have been on the streets
:04:44. > :04:48.because there is no voice. If you look at why no politicians and won
:04:48. > :04:54.dares say the things that need to be said, I walked from my hometown of
:04:54. > :04:57.Luton a few days ago, the first time since this decision. I was punished
:04:57. > :05:01.to the floor, all on camera, this will be in the documentary. I had
:05:01. > :05:06.Muslims come over to say I should be decapitated. Another Muslims said
:05:06. > :05:09.that it is like an anaconda that will squeeze the country. There are
:05:09. > :05:15.serious problems, and no-one dead voice them. If you look at what has
:05:15. > :05:18.happened to myself for trying to, with plots and everything, it is
:05:18. > :05:22.unfair and not right to be labelling an entire group of people as
:05:22. > :05:26.extremists and races, which is what we are seeing now. Esther Rantzen,
:05:26. > :05:32.where people in Luton saying that Islamic radicalisation is a problem
:05:32. > :05:38.and a concern for them? I met all kinds of people when I was in Luton,
:05:38. > :05:44.I really enjoyed it. My most worrying moment is when two veiled
:05:44. > :05:48.women were very angry with me for encouraging people to vote, and it
:05:48. > :05:54.was at that stage that I thought to myself, everyone has a democratic
:05:54. > :06:01.right to speak, but do we have a democratic right to stop other
:06:02. > :06:07.people? Why did they object? Because elections are not Islamic, they do
:06:07. > :06:13.not approve of it. These were Muslim women? Absolutely. The EDL was set
:06:13. > :06:16.up because Islamic radicals were protesting against British soldiers
:06:16. > :06:20.returning from Afghanistan - do you accept that ordinary people are
:06:21. > :06:23.offended by fundamentalist behaviour? Go blue I was offended by
:06:23. > :06:28.offended by fundamentalist that as well, March 2009. A very
:06:28. > :06:36.tiny group of people leafleted all the mosques in the area, and
:06:36. > :06:41.lewdness and 2/30 30,000 Muslims. -- and Luton is home to over 30,000
:06:41. > :06:47.Muslims. Less than 20 people turned up to that demonstration. It would
:06:47. > :06:52.be wrong to blame the other Muslims for this. Can I just come back to
:06:52. > :06:57.Tommy's point? If he is genuinely repentant of the actions that he has
:06:57. > :07:01.been engaged in, please, it would be nice to see him taking personal
:07:01. > :07:04.responsibility for some of those statements, instead of saying it was
:07:05. > :07:08.other elements within the EDL. You describe Islam as a disease. Do you
:07:08. > :08:07.apologise for those remarks? Go You will be able to understand
:08:07. > :08:09.it has become as an them, and when you are talking about the whole of
:08:09. > :08:13.Luton being leafleted. The Muslim you are talking about the whole of
:08:13. > :08:16.community knew they would attack our armed forces, what did they do about
:08:17. > :08:19.that, did they come out and try to stop them? Did they show their
:08:19. > :08:23.that, did they come out and try to disgust or let it happen? Just as
:08:23. > :08:27.you have the right to demonstrate, the extremists have the right to
:08:27. > :08:32.demonstrate peacefully, do you accept that? If members of our
:08:32. > :08:35.community were outside of a mosque, people opposed them, and when you
:08:35. > :08:38.look at what has happened since they done that to our troops, look at
:08:38. > :08:44.what has happened. When Muslims are going to burn poppies, we are both
:08:44. > :08:49.from Luton... That was condemned by Muslims all around this country, why
:08:49. > :08:54.do try to label all Muslims? I have made this movie so I do not label
:08:54. > :09:01.and blame. You are trying to tarnish an entire community for this small
:09:01. > :09:06.group. I have made this move... He has become a public face of Muslims
:09:06. > :09:09.in my town. He sat on local radio and said in an ideal world
:09:09. > :09:15.homosexuals should be executed, women should be lashed for adultery.
:09:15. > :09:19.This is my local radio, he is the local face. Can we just establish
:09:20. > :09:24.things like, in mosque building, you said there should be no new mosques,
:09:24. > :09:29.do you feel that? I believe we are adding to a problem that no-one is
:09:29. > :09:32.solving. Until mosques are regulated and moderated, every religious
:09:32. > :09:36.institution needs to be moderated, in the way that schools are. We do
:09:36. > :09:40.not know who was funding them or speaking at them. We see hatred in
:09:40. > :09:47.documentaries, and no-one is making an attempt to deal with those
:09:47. > :09:50.issues. We have laws in this country on incitement to religious hatred,
:09:50. > :09:53.and if Tommy has any evidence of hatred being espoused in mosques,
:09:53. > :10:01.take that evidence and give it to the police. Mosques are liable under
:10:01. > :10:05.the law. When we look at his view, and he believes in an ideal world,
:10:05. > :10:10.we need to look at who is funding... If we want a cohesive society that
:10:10. > :10:15.will succeed, we don't want Saudi Arabia, Iran or Qatar manipulating
:10:15. > :10:21.their form of Islam, in this country, where their books are
:10:21. > :10:26.educating children in a un-inclusive way, and someone has to be brave
:10:26. > :10:31.enough to speak about that. This is very polarised, what are your
:10:31. > :10:34.thoughts? Tommy, I think you are extremely brave to us that up
:10:34. > :10:38.against the extreme elements in your own former party, and it cannot be
:10:38. > :10:43.easy, and it means that people who regard you as a friend, they will
:10:43. > :10:46.turn against you. At the same time, no Muslim is going to support what
:10:46. > :10:51.you say, because it feels like racism, even of what you are saying
:10:51. > :10:56.is not racist. That is what I'm saying, my message has not resonated
:10:56. > :11:02.with Muslims. I know Luton Muslims will be sitting there like this when
:11:02. > :11:05.they hear him saying these things. What you want them to do? Do you
:11:05. > :11:12.want to walk arm in arm with Muslims? Yes, I do. I walk through
:11:12. > :11:17.Luton, and I know his views are not representative. Stop a second, they
:11:17. > :11:24.prepared to have you as a moderate spokesman for what, integration of
:11:24. > :11:29.great religions? I believe the news we are making, Muslims are
:11:29. > :11:32.contacting me to say they have been fed up... The Muslim Council of
:11:32. > :11:36.Britain are representative of 6% of Muslims in the country, but they are
:11:36. > :11:42.the voice on TV, Islamists are given a voice across the country... You
:11:42. > :11:46.are talking awfully fast! It is because I am passionate about what
:11:46. > :11:50.I'm saying. This passionate Muslim regards you with the greatest
:11:50. > :11:56.suspicion. He set up an Islamist organisation. Tommy, labelling lots
:11:56. > :12:00.of people... These people are not all here to defend themselves,
:12:00. > :12:04.including the person you mentioned on local radio. I do not want you
:12:04. > :12:09.making comments that people cannot respond to. When you were on the
:12:09. > :12:14.Muslim Council of Britain, the second-in-command said British
:12:14. > :12:17.troops were justified for attack. The government withdrew their
:12:17. > :12:22.commitment. Let's move the discussion on to where we are,
:12:22. > :12:27.because you have said... You representative of English people? If
:12:27. > :12:35.you genuinely want to engage with the Muslim community, do you regard
:12:35. > :12:39.the Koran as an evil book? I believe that if it is interpreted in one
:12:39. > :12:43.way, it is extremely... People are quoting verses and murdering people,
:12:43. > :12:46.and other Muslims are completely devastated that it has been minute
:12:46. > :12:52.elated in that way. It is a very complex issue. How do you feel about
:12:52. > :13:05.one of your children, if they wanted to marry a Muslim? And many girls
:13:05. > :13:09.that have converted to Islam, and we have a problem here. And many girls
:13:09. > :13:12.that have converted to Islam and that is what has happened to their
:13:12. > :13:16.family. Is it with their mothers who have cried their eyes out because
:13:16. > :13:19.they had not seen their daughters. If there were not these problems,
:13:19. > :13:23.would not mind at the RBC race issues. We're not going to solve
:13:24. > :13:29.these problems by labelling anyone who mentions these issues as
:13:29. > :13:37.Islamification. Jamie Bartlett joins us from the think tank, Damos. You
:13:38. > :13:43.have been doing research on violence and extremism. Tommy Robinson has
:13:43. > :13:47.said PETA was setup to represent the authentic voice of working-class
:13:47. > :13:55.people. -- the EDL. What is your thought on the discussion? I think
:13:55. > :13:59.all democracies are chaotic and difficult and it is vital that
:13:59. > :14:05.people feel that they can express themselves, even if we find it
:14:05. > :14:11.offensive. Insofar as the English Defence League claims to be fighting
:14:11. > :14:15.a big problem in society, that of Islamist extremism, in some cases
:14:15. > :14:19.they have a point. We have a problem, a small problem than Tommy
:14:19. > :14:28.thinks, but we have a problem in some sections of the community. I
:14:28. > :14:33.think the problem has been that too often the English Defence League has
:14:33. > :14:36.not focused on that target. And too often, and this is partly a result
:14:36. > :14:43.of the way the EDL is setup with formal membership structure, it has
:14:43. > :14:50.attracted lots of people with more radical and extreme views and so too
:14:50. > :14:52.often you see the EDL are all Muslims with the extremist brush,
:14:52. > :14:57.and try to express themselves through violence on the streets,
:14:57. > :15:04.throwing bottles and the rest of it, and that is not for me. Briefly,
:15:04. > :15:07.if we look at Europe where there have been issues with campaigns
:15:07. > :15:10.against Islamic radicalism, is there any difference there or is there
:15:10. > :15:13.always a problem with far right racism being part of any movement
:15:13. > :15:19.against Muslim radicalisation? We racism being part of any movement
:15:19. > :15:23.have definitely seen over the last 20 years an increase in the far
:15:23. > :15:27.right across Europe and, compared to much of Europe, the UK does pretty
:15:27. > :15:34.well. We are a very tolerant society. If you look at lots of
:15:34. > :15:38.different polls, the public as a whole thinks that Muslims are
:15:38. > :15:42.extremely important as a part of society and very welcome here. And
:15:42. > :15:49.they have as much right to be here and contributing as anybody else. If
:15:49. > :15:54.you look at the far right in other European countries, France, Greece,
:15:54. > :16:01.Italy, Hungary, we actually do not have as big a problem. Thank you.
:16:01. > :16:08.I'd like to bring in Osam. We will come back to you, Jimmy, if we can.
:16:08. > :16:13.Osama Hassan joins us. You have heard the discussion we have had so
:16:13. > :16:17.far. We have had this deadlock about radicalisation. I see some of the
:16:17. > :16:20.debate since Tommy Robinson left the EDL has been to say that the
:16:20. > :16:29.Quilliam foundation does not represent Muslims. I would like to
:16:29. > :16:31.thank the contributors so far for having a civilised debate. I'd agree
:16:31. > :16:43.that the UK is more tolerant than parts of Europe. We should value
:16:43. > :16:45.that. We do not attack Muslims and we do not represent all Muslim
:16:45. > :16:49.communities. Nor does any group that claims to. We are a think tank and
:16:49. > :16:55.we work on ideas. There is no doubt that Islamist extremism has become a
:16:55. > :17:02.national security concern. Dozens of terror plots have occurred during
:17:02. > :17:10.the last 15 years. The EDL has struck a chord because is phobia has
:17:10. > :17:14.passed the intake test. We have an explosive situation now because over
:17:14. > :17:18.the last few years, there have been a number of mosques attacked with
:17:18. > :17:25.arson bonds and firebombs at by people linked to the EDL. It is an
:17:25. > :17:28.explosive situation threatening to get out of control. We are very
:17:28. > :17:35.proud to be working with Tommy and Kevin Carroll to defuse the
:17:35. > :17:37.situation and calm things down. We hope we can have a civilised and
:17:37. > :17:42.constructive dialogue and not have violent street or test and attacks
:17:42. > :17:47.on mosques in the future, just as we hope there will be no more terrorist
:17:47. > :17:54.plots. I think we need to see genuine change. Sam seems to be
:17:54. > :18:01.encouraged by what Tommy is doing. Most Muslims are sceptical until he
:18:01. > :18:03.genuinely chains -- changes. I've heard a significant number of
:18:03. > :18:08.Muslims think that they do not believe the Quilliam foundation
:18:08. > :18:20.represents Muslims. Is there a sense of victimhood among some Muslims? I
:18:20. > :18:27.think this is very similar, a similar organisation to certain
:18:27. > :18:37.outfits that appeared in the wake of McCarthyism. Osama, there is
:18:37. > :18:40.suspicion about your motives. When people are unable to deal with
:18:40. > :18:48.arguments... Where does your money come from, Osama? We were set up a
:18:48. > :18:52.few years ago. Lots of Muslims -- muzzle Morgan positions taken
:18:52. > :18:57.funding is from the government. Including corrupt governments. But
:18:57. > :19:01.where does your funding come from? Let me say something... Thank you. I
:19:01. > :19:10.where does your funding come from? want to deal with this. Esther
:19:10. > :19:15.Rantzen, can ask you? Any democratic government in this country will want
:19:16. > :19:18.tolerance, multiculturalism, for the society to get on together. If you
:19:18. > :19:22.find an organisation which appears to be espousing discussion between
:19:22. > :19:26.groups who otherwise would not agree, that has to be a good thing.
:19:26. > :19:30.It would be. I'd agree. If you tell agree, that has to be a good thing.
:19:30. > :19:33.him that whatever he says, you do not believe them and you think that
:19:33. > :19:37.he is making it up in order to dispose of the causes, then you give
:19:37. > :19:45.him know where to stand. That is not true. In the 30s, this rhetoric was
:19:45. > :19:52.directed towards British Jews. We have every right to expect Tommy to
:19:52. > :20:00.behave with civilisation and not target British Muslims, saying there
:20:00. > :20:04.should be no more mosques. That is a political view. To say that Mohammed
:20:04. > :20:09.is a paedophile, that is extremely offensive to every Muslim. And the
:20:09. > :20:12.reason why I have made my break from the endless defence league is
:20:12. > :20:16.because I wish to work with Muslims to solve these problems. But we have
:20:16. > :20:17.to max sort of Muslims in this country, radicals and streamers and
:20:17. > :20:22.apologists. Apologists like yourself country, radicals and streamers and
:20:22. > :20:25.who are not willing to accept that there are problems. And to solve the
:20:25. > :20:31.problem is, someone is going to have to come out and reach out. I've
:20:31. > :20:35.reached out to Quilliam because I believe what they say. Would you
:20:35. > :20:40.mind your kids being educated next to Muslims? Of course not. I am from
:20:40. > :20:44.Luton. My mixed with Muslims when I grew up, and I have no problem with
:20:44. > :20:49.them. There might be many EDL people who think that they disagree. Should
:20:49. > :20:56.they disband? Has it lost its way, lost its purpose? I was concerned
:20:56. > :21:00.about where it was going. I see this as the way forward. I see that we
:21:00. > :21:03.have created a voice and we're channelling it positively. Some
:21:03. > :21:08.people may not see that and they may feel angry and frustrated. But what
:21:08. > :21:14.I was encouraged by was what SO yesterday. A homosexual speaker
:21:14. > :21:20.objecting to Nazis and racism and that is what the media should be
:21:20. > :21:24.reporting. Not once has the EDL be reported as having non-white
:21:24. > :21:29.members. I went to the demonstration to see what they get up to. I saw
:21:29. > :21:36.them starting off, drink heavily. Lots of beer cans and lager cans. As
:21:36. > :21:41.the demonstration went on, number of the supporters were urinating on a
:21:42. > :21:48.church. Which demonstration? Twice in Luton in 2011 and 2012. We
:21:48. > :21:51.marched near a church. -- we did not march. Would you condemn her
:21:51. > :21:58.masculine act of course. I condemn any act of terrorism. If you
:21:58. > :22:02.gentlemen can get together, I see hope for the future. The crucial
:22:02. > :22:08.thing is that you live and let live. It is easy to say that until people
:22:08. > :22:14.are trying to push views upon you. The last words to Esther Rantzen.
:22:14. > :22:22.You both need more women in your various sectors. I would second
:22:22. > :22:26.that. Saying that women, whose focus is that their children can grow up
:22:26. > :22:32.in peace and prosperity. -- sane women. What you have in common is
:22:32. > :22:36.more important than what divides you. We will return to discuss this
:22:36. > :22:40.when we have our vote at the end of the programme. The vote is very much
:22:40. > :22:44.open. The question, does the EDL represented view that needs to be
:22:44. > :22:59.heard? Remember, you can only vote once. If you think it does, text
:22:59. > :23:06.BOAT -- VOTE. Still to come, we hear about one way of tackling
:23:06. > :23:14.loneliness. This is wonderful axeman absolutely wonderful! What an
:23:14. > :23:17.eye-opener. -- this is wonderful! . Newspaper editors and politicians
:23:17. > :23:25.are deadlocked over future regulation. The papers say the
:23:25. > :23:28.freedom of the press is at stake. Politicians say the papers have to
:23:28. > :23:31.put their house in order after the intrusions that led to the latter is
:23:31. > :23:35.enquiry. Lord Justice Leveson said these activities have wreaked havoc
:23:35. > :23:36.with the lives of innocent people and included the hacking into the
:23:36. > :23:40.phone of Milly Dowler by the News of and included the hacking into the
:23:40. > :23:44.the World. That was nearly a year ago. The newspapers came up with
:23:44. > :23:48.their version of regulation, which was rejected. Another plan put
:23:48. > :23:52.forward by the politicians has achieved short shrift from the
:23:52. > :23:55.papers with the newspaper Society saying it amounted to
:23:55. > :24:00.state-sponsored regulation. Mark Lewis, the wire who represented the
:24:00. > :24:03.Dowler family and others, says that the press needs tough control. This
:24:03. > :24:11.is his Sunday Stand, delivered from the setting of a print museum.
:24:11. > :24:15.is his Sunday Stand, delivered from Britain has a proud history of free
:24:16. > :24:22.press. Our newspapers used to be a beacon to the world. Too often, it
:24:22. > :24:25.has misused its readers and it needs to face the consequences. Press
:24:26. > :24:31.regulation should have been in place by now. It has been over two years
:24:31. > :24:33.since the News of the World close-down and was one year since
:24:33. > :24:39.Lord Justice Leveson delivered his enquiry into press ethics. So why
:24:39. > :24:44.are we still waiting? Journalists will have you believe that some sort
:24:44. > :24:47.of regulation is a Stalin list controversy and they complain that
:24:47. > :24:54.control is being taken away from them. Sadly, I know how low some in
:24:54. > :24:58.the British press will stoop after the hacking into Milly Dowler's
:24:58. > :25:01.phone. But the papers have been censured over other issues. For
:25:01. > :25:05.long, they will be back to their old tricks. There is a fundamental
:25:05. > :25:09.problem at the root of this. The British press is in the control of a
:25:09. > :25:12.handful of individuals. These powerful owners are not the
:25:12. > :25:16.guardians of our democracy as they would have you believe. Instead,
:25:16. > :25:19.they are peddling a vision of the world that they would like to see.
:25:19. > :25:28.The newspapers they control can present opinion as fact. It happens
:25:28. > :25:31.every day. I believe the British press can play a vital part in our
:25:31. > :25:35.future but only if things change. Full changes will not happen unless
:25:35. > :25:39.newspapers are forced to accept them. -- those changes. A strong
:25:39. > :25:42.system of regulation is essential. them. -- those changes. A strong
:25:43. > :25:48.Until that happens, I believe that Britain will still have an immoral
:25:48. > :25:52.press. Can the press be trusted to clean up
:25:52. > :25:57.its act? You can take part in this debate by webcam or make your point
:25:57. > :26:00.by phone, e-mail or text. We're joined by Mark Lewis and a Professor
:26:00. > :26:06.of journalism at the University of Kent and former editor of the
:26:06. > :26:09.Scotsman newspaper, Tim Buckhurst. The press are really mistrusted
:26:09. > :26:16.since the hacking scandal. People wonder, has anything changed? That
:26:16. > :26:19.is true. It is a case of lack of trust. Largely brought about by a
:26:19. > :26:22.campaign which has misrepresented most newspapers by suggesting that
:26:22. > :26:24.campaign which has misrepresented they are responsible for the
:26:24. > :26:30.behaviour of a minority of badly behaved newspapers. Letter member
:26:30. > :26:36.that the British press are moral and revered around the world for setting
:26:36. > :26:40.a standard of freedom of speech, for the certification of expression and
:26:40. > :26:44.holding power to account. British newspapers are not regarded as evil
:26:44. > :26:48.institutions which have harmed individuals. Most newspapers are
:26:48. > :26:51.held up as symbols of liberty and the excellence of a democratic
:26:51. > :26:56.system in which journalism holds power to account. We have to start
:26:56. > :26:59.the debate by saying that we need to move away from the idea that we have
:26:59. > :27:04.a free press because if you think we have a free press now, then helping
:27:04. > :27:08.anybody can say to suggest we need to change it is moving away from the
:27:08. > :27:13.free press. What we have now is a few individuals who run very big
:27:13. > :27:19.companies and have some control. I am saying, let's move away from that
:27:19. > :27:23.and have proper freedom where people can say their views. And if you work
:27:23. > :27:26.for one newspaper, you want to express an opinion that is different
:27:26. > :27:32.to the owner, you would not be allowed to do that. That is not
:27:32. > :27:35.freedom. By bringing Esther Rantzen? You are a journalist and you also
:27:35. > :27:41.want a successful libel action against the newspaper. What is your
:27:41. > :27:45.view about whether they can run themselves? I believe and
:27:45. > :27:47.investigative journalism and I have written for tabloids and
:27:47. > :27:51.broadsheets. I believe in the role but journalists have to play. They
:27:51. > :27:54.do not agree full stop I do not think that the nation trusts
:27:54. > :28:00.newspapers or trust journalists. In every poll you see journalists come
:28:00. > :28:05.below estate agents. It is a problem because many people have either
:28:05. > :28:10.themselves been written about or had friends and family written about and
:28:10. > :28:21.have seen them reduced. It is a failure to understand that lesson
:28:21. > :28:25.was also guilty of. -- Leveson. The people you say do not trust the
:28:25. > :28:29.newspapers are the public to buy them in their millions. And big by
:28:29. > :28:36.the very papers that Brian Levenson was so critical of. We have to be
:28:36. > :28:38.careful to say that we know what public opinion believes because it
:28:38. > :28:42.tends to believe two different things. One that sometimes these
:28:42. > :28:46.papers behaved badly, and they think they need to be regulated, but also
:28:46. > :28:49.that the newspapers do a fantastic job and that they are entertaining
:28:49. > :28:53.and hold power to account. And finally, the notion that all
:28:53. > :28:59.Buddhist newspapers are owned by a few individuals is completely
:28:59. > :29:03.untrue, illegal, because we do not allow such concentration of
:29:03. > :29:10.ownership under law, and designed predominantly to make a propaganda
:29:10. > :29:14.point. Self-regulation is what existed when all these problems
:29:14. > :29:19.happened. The press has been regulating itself for decades, and
:29:19. > :29:22.every 20 years or so there is a politician or someone who speaks out
:29:22. > :29:27.and says, you are in the last chance saloon, David Mellor 1980s, he said
:29:27. > :29:33.the press was in the last chance saloon. I want to bring in Bob
:29:33. > :29:35.Satchwell from the Society of editors, the organisation which
:29:35. > :29:42.represents much of the print industry. You know, there is this
:29:42. > :29:44.question of, you know, is it really about powerful newspapers having
:29:44. > :29:49.things their own way, or is it about holding the powerful to account,
:29:49. > :29:56.people are not sure it is one or the other? It is totally wrong to
:29:56. > :30:01.suggest that just a few papers, there are 1100 regional papers, 20
:30:01. > :30:04.national, and hundreds of magazines affected by this, and they all have
:30:04. > :30:11.different views. The point that Mark is missing, well, two points. Why
:30:12. > :30:16.was Leveson and the committee set up? It was to look into the
:30:16. > :30:21.behaviour of a tiny number of journalists and investigators on one
:30:21. > :30:25.paper. That was not the culture and practice of the whole of the press.
:30:25. > :30:29.And journalists across the country were just as horrified as the public
:30:29. > :30:34.by the behaviour that came out there. But that was already covered
:30:34. > :30:39.by law. The second point he misses is just how far the industry has now
:30:39. > :30:43.moved, and the new system will be much tougher, with £1 million fines
:30:44. > :30:48.and so on. That is what you have got to look at. You cannot give away
:30:48. > :30:53.300-year-old principles about freedom of the press because of the
:30:53. > :30:58.behaviour of a tiny number of newspapers. Thank you. I would like
:30:58. > :31:02.to bring in the former deputy features editor of the News of the
:31:02. > :31:04.World, and he was a witness at the Leveson earring. You have been very
:31:04. > :31:10.honest in the past about your use of Leveson earring. You have been very
:31:10. > :31:17.intrusive reporting techniques, that hacking was widespread. Do you still
:31:17. > :31:20.think that is acceptable? Yeah, I have done many disreputable and
:31:20. > :31:25.underhanded things, things that are currently illegal, but I have got a
:31:25. > :31:27.new book out that really makes the point that all this gagging of the
:31:28. > :31:31.new book out that really makes the press is being driven by celebrities
:31:31. > :31:39.who have been caught in the past by us taking cocaine, using underage
:31:39. > :31:42.girls, and also hand-in-hand with MPs who have been caught lying and
:31:42. > :31:46.cheating and stealing. Without mentioning any names, we all know
:31:46. > :31:55.who they are. The number one story in today's papers that I saw, and
:31:55. > :31:57.there is no decent investigation, because there are no surveillance
:31:57. > :32:02.vans in the south-east of England, so if you want to do it, you can get
:32:02. > :32:08.away with it. The only story in today's papers, I do not not sure if
:32:08. > :32:12.you can see this, Savile abused children at NHS hospitals. I was
:32:12. > :32:16.sued successful by Jimmy Savile in 1992, and my editor then told me to
:32:16. > :32:22.back up and leave him alone, and not only did I act his phone, I was
:32:22. > :32:27.outside his house, went through his bins, I might have saved a number of
:32:27. > :32:30.children from being abused... Let me put that to Mark Lewis. That is an
:32:30. > :32:34.children from being abused... Let me interesting issue, with people
:32:34. > :32:38.suspected of serious wrongdoing, he is saying that justifies extreme
:32:38. > :32:41.investigation. I agree that there ought to be proper investigative
:32:41. > :32:45.journalism, and that is what journalism is about. It checks
:32:45. > :32:48.things, it counters things. But what we are talking about is lazy
:32:48. > :32:50.journalism, and what Bob was saying before, just briefly, was that
:32:50. > :33:14.Leveson was said to look at skewed system, a police that was not
:33:14. > :33:16.prosecuting, was not enforcing the laws against them. It is
:33:17. > :33:17.prosecuting, was not enforcing the interesting, the issue
:33:17. > :33:23.intimidating room, and most of the people being intimidated were
:33:23. > :33:27.members of the public, people who happens to be famous. Absolutely
:33:27. > :33:30.right, and I don't think anybody would take on a major newspaper
:33:30. > :33:32.because they knew it was a hiding to knocking. They knew that once you
:33:32. > :33:35.because they knew it was a hiding to stick your head up above the
:33:35. > :33:39.parapet, you would be in the target area, probably for the rest of your
:33:39. > :33:44.life, and we have seen that happen. I think readers are aware of this,
:33:44. > :33:48.too. Newspapers have to be very careful, because we are not all
:33:48. > :33:52.stupid, we might read a newspaper that we don't agree with. While we
:33:52. > :33:56.admired the work that great newspapers do. There is a real
:33:56. > :34:01.problem again, because it is the newspapers that do the very best
:34:01. > :34:05.work, the top-quality investigative broadsheet newspapers, who now
:34:05. > :34:09.object most strenuously to the form of regulation being proposed by
:34:09. > :34:13.politicians. We have found ourselves in the situation where we are not
:34:13. > :34:17.implementing anything that Leveson recommended. What we are
:34:17. > :34:24.implementing or being asked to comment is a rail charter, a
:34:24. > :34:28.medieval instrument... I do not want to get too bogged down, viewers will
:34:28. > :34:32.not want the details. We cannot replace newspapers who have too much
:34:32. > :34:36.influence with politicians with politicians having power over
:34:36. > :34:40.newspapers. I just want to bring in someone to respond to that very
:34:40. > :34:44.issue, and we are joined on webcam by Professor Steven Barnett,
:34:44. > :34:47.professor of communications at the university of Westminster. Do we
:34:47. > :34:52.really to replace a system where newspapers are too powerful with a
:34:52. > :34:56.system where politicians are too powerful? Is politicians having a
:34:56. > :35:04.say in proving things? Well, I'm afraid that very question is a
:35:04. > :35:11.reflection of the propaganda and scaremongering amongst editors and
:35:11. > :35:15.proprietors. They are desperate to portray this as some kind of state
:35:15. > :35:19.censorship, statutory control. It is absolutely not think of the sort,
:35:19. > :35:23.and I absolutely understand we do not want to get into the detail of
:35:23. > :35:24.the Royal Charter, and I promise I won't, but your viewers must
:35:24. > :35:29.the Royal Charter, and I promise I understand one crucial thing about
:35:29. > :35:32.what is being proposed. What Parliament has put forward in that
:35:32. > :35:39.charter is a system that explicitly excludes politicians from any point
:35:39. > :35:43.in the process, they cannot sit on the board of a regulator,
:35:43. > :35:47.self-regulating, they cannot sit on the body that appoints the board,
:35:47. > :35:52.they cannot sit on the panel that will recognise the regulator. In
:35:52. > :35:57.stark contrast, ironically, to be very charter the breast themselves
:35:57. > :35:59.put forward, which incidentally is allowed now, which allows
:35:59. > :36:05.politicians at any stage of the process. -- be very charter the
:36:06. > :36:09.present themselves put forward. Do not be misled by this attempt to
:36:09. > :36:12.mislead people by portraying this as political control, it is precisely
:36:12. > :36:16.the opposite. Steve is the one who political control, it is precisely
:36:16. > :36:21.is guilty of propaganda. I admire him greatly, but this is nonsense.
:36:21. > :36:25.Everybody from Jonathan Freedland of the Guardian to Paul Dacre of the
:36:25. > :36:29.Daily Mail to the international committee coordinating organisations
:36:29. > :36:33.in favour of press freedom, to campaigners for press freedom in
:36:33. > :36:37.Africa agrees that what the Royal Charter that is being proposed does
:36:37. > :36:44.is to place politicians over the press. That is an appalling shift.
:36:44. > :36:48.You have the position, you ask the question - give me a country where
:36:48. > :36:51.it has been useful. How about America? The first Amendment says
:36:51. > :36:57.politicians cannot control the press, no difference at all Watt it
:36:57. > :37:03.says Congress may make no law restricting the free press. It is no
:37:03. > :37:07.difficult to what is being proposed here. What is being proposed in the
:37:07. > :37:17.Royal Charter would be illegal in the United States. It is exactly the
:37:17. > :37:22.same. Do you approve of self-regulation in other trades,
:37:22. > :37:25.because my problem is, much as I am concerned about the freedom of the
:37:25. > :37:30.press, I have never found that self-regulation works, not in any
:37:30. > :37:34.arena. You always have to have an independent arbiter, an independent
:37:34. > :37:37.regulator. Journalism is not a profession. Journalism is the
:37:37. > :37:45.exercise of a fundamental human rights, the freedom of speech. Do
:37:45. > :37:49.you approve of self-regulation? Does it work? I do not approve of sulphur
:37:49. > :37:54.elation is profession is, but of a fundamental human rights which under
:37:54. > :38:01.plans all other human rights. -- I do not approve self-regulation of
:38:01. > :38:04.professions. Not everyone who practices journalism is a
:38:04. > :38:08.professional journalist. I just want to bring in some comments from
:38:08. > :38:11.viewers, and Jonty says it is outrageous that we are talking about
:38:12. > :38:15.regulating the press. Pam says, certain elements of the press have
:38:15. > :38:18.shown time and again that they cannot be trusted to
:38:18. > :38:21.self-regulation. James says, of course the press is not going to
:38:21. > :38:25.change, extravagance sells newspapers. If you do not like it,
:38:25. > :38:29.do not read it. You have been voting at home on the question we set at
:38:29. > :38:33.the start of the programme, does the English Defence League represent a
:38:33. > :38:37.view that needs to be heard? The vote is closing now, please do not
:38:37. > :38:48.text, it will not count. This week the charity Age UK said
:38:48. > :38:51.that new research revealed the numbers of reports of abuse against
:38:51. > :38:55.people over the age of 65 had risen by 28% in the last year. The
:38:55. > :39:01.revelations come in the same week that councils in England have faced
:39:01. > :39:04.criticism of the number of flying care visits made to elderly and
:39:04. > :39:08.vulnerable people. Esther Rantzen is here to talk about what she plans to
:39:08. > :39:13.do to help alleviate loneliness amongst older people, but first the
:39:13. > :39:15.story of one group of pensioners who have discovered a way of finding
:39:15. > :39:29.companionship and having their voices heard.
:39:29. > :39:39.# Why, why, why Delilah? Golden oldie started six years ago
:39:39. > :39:43.in response to what its founders saw as a growing problem of loneliness
:39:44. > :39:46.among the elderly. -- Golden Oldies. We have got the growing elderly, a
:39:46. > :39:50.lonely population in this country. We have got the growing elderly, a
:39:50. > :39:53.We know for a lot of them, coming to our sessions is the only time, the
:39:54. > :40:00.only time that they meet with other people. They have about 70 groups at
:40:00. > :40:05.the moment, holding monthly sessions were elderly people are brought
:40:05. > :40:10.together to sing and just have a good time. Certainly, the people in
:40:10. > :40:12.the group we visited in Devizes in Wiltshire recognise the value of
:40:12. > :40:21.getting out and forming new friendships. I shall be 94 in two
:40:21. > :40:26.months' time. I think it is good for the community. I have a good time, I
:40:26. > :40:31.could not care less what people think. As regards my singing! Often
:40:31. > :40:37.when you are alone, you feel really alone, by myself, sort of thing, and
:40:37. > :40:47.that is when you get a down day. Two, beer and meet people, we have
:40:47. > :40:51.such a laugh. -- to come up here. What we try and do is get people out
:40:51. > :40:55.to sit down with others, to smile, have a cup of tea, and friendships
:40:55. > :41:04.are made. We are not a choir, we press a button on the CD player, and
:41:04. > :41:09.we have a good old singsong. It is wonderful! Absolutely wonderful.
:41:09. > :41:18.The golden oldies there. Is Britain failing its elderly? Maybe we should
:41:18. > :41:20.concentrate more resources on older people? We are joined by Shiv Malik,
:41:20. > :41:26.concentrate more resources on older author of Jilted Generation: How
:41:26. > :41:33.Britain Has Bankrupted Its Yout. You are setting up this telephone
:41:33. > :41:37.helpline for older people, why? When I wrote about my own feelings of
:41:37. > :41:40.loneliness, living alone for the first time at the age of 71, it's
:41:40. > :41:44.got such a huge response from readers of one of the newspapers we
:41:44. > :41:48.have been discussing that I suddenly realised that where a helpline has
:41:48. > :41:53.been very useful in breaking down the stigma of abuse in children,
:41:53. > :41:57.ChildLine, maybe a helpline might be equally useful in breaking down the
:41:57. > :42:02.stigma which exists for loneliness among older people. I am happy to
:42:02. > :42:07.tell you that because the big lottery fund has agreed with us and
:42:08. > :42:13.has decided to give us an award, a grand, it means that we are going to
:42:13. > :42:16.launch on November the 25th nationally. Shiv Malik, there is so
:42:16. > :42:19.much concerned about vulnerable older people living on their own,
:42:19. > :42:23.they are not getting support, and this report of 15 minute flying
:42:23. > :42:27.visits, people think that is where we should be targeting resources. I
:42:27. > :42:33.do not think anyone is denying that we have a problem with old age care
:42:33. > :42:36.and social care, and we are clearly not doing enough, that is a massive
:42:36. > :42:40.problem. But we have known about this for years, 20 years, really,
:42:40. > :42:43.because we have known that people are going to live longer, and this
:42:43. > :42:46.gets to the heart of the problem in this country, where we have a
:42:46. > :42:49.massive problem with a lack of planning. We don't seem to care
:42:49. > :42:57.about our future, and now we are passing it on to our children. The
:42:57. > :42:59.Observer has a front-page story that the next generation will have a
:42:59. > :43:02.lower standard of living than this generation of adults, which is a
:43:02. > :43:05.terrible indictment on our economy, our civilisation, our ethics in
:43:05. > :43:09.terms of what we want to do for the future. So if you want to put it
:43:09. > :43:12.this way, while we are worrying about problems now of old age care,
:43:12. > :43:15.we are not wearing at all or beginning to think about the
:43:15. > :43:23.problems that we will face for old age care for people who are 30 or 40
:43:23. > :43:27.now. A lot of benefits have been cut for younger people. Some of those
:43:27. > :43:30.now. A lot of benefits have been cut non-means tested benefits. Do we
:43:30. > :43:34.assumed that all elderly people are the same and they all need extra
:43:34. > :43:39.support? I think one of the problems we face is that political planning
:43:39. > :43:44.for this problem has been based on the electoral cycle. It has been
:43:44. > :43:47.over five years rather than long-term planning. It has also been
:43:47. > :43:52.based on the assumption that we are getting richer. We have a big
:43:52. > :43:57.problem. We are getting error. And we may well not be as prosperous as
:43:57. > :44:01.we have been again. -- poorer. That confronts us with an obligation to
:44:01. > :44:05.say that we need to do the very best we possibly can for elderly people
:44:05. > :44:09.who need help. But can we afford universal benefits which are payable
:44:09. > :44:14.also to people who simply do not need it? Such as? I am reluctant to
:44:14. > :44:17.also to people who simply do not use personal examples but I will
:44:17. > :44:21.give you an example. My mother is not rich remotely but she has a
:44:21. > :44:25.professional pension and she has also got my father's professional
:44:25. > :44:28.pension. And she believes that she can afford to support herself. She
:44:28. > :44:32.does not understand why she is entitled to benefits that she can
:44:32. > :44:38.afford to do without. The winter fuel allowance, free television
:44:38. > :44:43.licences, the bus passes. They are very nice and it is a wonderful idea
:44:43. > :44:49.in a society getting wealthier all the time, but there are people out
:44:49. > :44:55.there who can afford to. Everyone knows that these benefits introduced
:44:55. > :44:59.by the Labour government are junkets to give away to a class of people
:44:59. > :45:04.who they hoped would vote for them. So we spend £1 billion of free bus
:45:04. > :45:16.passes and £2 billion on winter fuel payments for all over 60. We also do
:45:16. > :45:20.not tax people who work over 60. That is another junket. To reverse
:45:20. > :45:23.that would be problematic. It means two things, but we do not actually
:45:24. > :45:31.solve any of the social care problems. Pensioners can travel on
:45:31. > :45:35.buses, which is helpful and useful, but not as pressing or problematic
:45:35. > :45:39.social care. But we also cut things like university fees for younger
:45:39. > :45:44.people which means that younger people are not getting educated and
:45:44. > :45:51.end up with massive debt. There is an issue of then -- them and us.
:45:51. > :45:57.Have you met many people over 50? Of course. I'll work with people over
:45:57. > :46:02.50. That is unusual in this medium. Let's not get into that debate. I
:46:03. > :46:05.think about attitudes. The free bus pass is very different from the wood
:46:05. > :46:12.of your payments. The free bus pass actually encourages older people who
:46:12. > :46:16.are isolated to move into communities and continue their links
:46:16. > :46:22.and they are crucial. There are plenty of pensioners who could
:46:22. > :46:24.afford this. Most moving. The thing is, loneliness is a health risk. It
:46:24. > :46:28.has been shown to be serious. What is, loneliness is a health risk. It
:46:28. > :46:33.we need to do is make sure that older people stay linked. Otherwise,
:46:33. > :46:39.you get letters like I have got from a terrifically articulate elderly
:46:39. > :46:43.lady in her 70s who said that she feels her life is pointless and she
:46:43. > :46:48.is a waste of space. And we do not want that. Is there a cultural
:46:48. > :46:52.problem, not just about whether we see all the people on television but
:46:52. > :46:56.about families expecting the state to do the things that families used
:46:56. > :47:01.to do for older relatives. There is a cultural problem in that we still
:47:01. > :47:04.regard them as invisible and inaudible. We do not regard older
:47:04. > :47:08.people as having opinions worth consulting. When I was talking about
:47:09. > :47:14.an absence of people over 50, I was not thinking front of camera, I was
:47:14. > :47:18.thinking back of camera as well. I think people feel that they are past
:47:18. > :47:22.their sell by date at a time where other cultures think they are at
:47:22. > :47:28.their most useful. I think we have got better at those attitudes. A lot
:47:28. > :47:31.better in the last 15 years. Most of culture is devised around selling
:47:31. > :47:38.things to over 60s, because they have the cash. I'd beg your pardon?
:47:38. > :47:42.Do you think you should get winter fuel payments, which mean that
:47:42. > :47:48.people your age and above do not get drop social care? -- get decent. I'd
:47:48. > :47:53.distinguish between those benefits because all the people would give
:47:53. > :47:59.our winter payments, because we would prefer them to be targeted to
:47:59. > :48:06.the people who need them most. I'm joined by a contributor from
:48:06. > :48:11.webcam, representative from AgeUK. A lot of people were saying, if you
:48:11. > :48:15.are under 30, people might think we have nothing like the pensions many
:48:15. > :48:18.currently retired people have the benefits of, and you have lost a lot
:48:18. > :48:24.of the benefits that older people have. There is concerned that they
:48:24. > :48:27.are to fund benefits for a generation and that they themselves
:48:27. > :48:31.might have the worst situation -- a worse situation when they reach
:48:31. > :48:36.retirement age. A lot of older people do not have decent pensions.
:48:36. > :48:40.More than a fifth are living below the poverty line. Many old people do
:48:40. > :48:45.not own their old home. We starting this debate in the wrong place. --
:48:46. > :48:49.on that own home. Starting an argument of who is the purest is not
:48:49. > :48:54.productive. When it comes to looking at the savings we could make in bus
:48:54. > :48:57.passes and winter fuel payments, by taking it away from those who do not
:48:57. > :49:05.need it, we're going to come up with disappointing numbers which do not
:49:05. > :49:09.do anything terribly useful. £2 billion on winter fuel payments and
:49:09. > :49:14.£1 billion for the bus pass, by the time you're protected those who need
:49:14. > :49:20.it, and the bus pass is important to maintain social mobility as Esther
:49:20. > :49:24.Rantzen says, for people to enjoy their life, then you are not going
:49:24. > :49:32.to be left with very much to get lived of the social indignities like
:49:32. > :49:37.the 15 minute visits. Surely, no one in our civilised society would hope
:49:37. > :49:43.for that for themselves if we became vulnerable in old age. I'm going to
:49:43. > :49:50.bring in Canon Paul Hatfield. And would like to ask, have we become to
:49:50. > :49:55.individualistic? What happened to the days when the neighbours or your
:49:55. > :49:57.family came round to visit, and kept an eye on new? Why is loneliness
:49:57. > :50:06.family came round to visit, and kept such a big part of the problem? It
:50:06. > :50:14.is important not to see things through the prism of state funding.
:50:14. > :50:15.How do we create a society with stronger intergenerational
:50:15. > :50:24.connections? We have done a lot of work of bringing people together and
:50:24. > :50:27.there have been some significant pieces of work that address
:50:27. > :50:35.isolation and to build confidence for young people. Young people?
:50:35. > :50:39.Young people have been helping elderly people. Can you give me an
:50:39. > :50:43.example? What have you done and how has it engaged younger people into
:50:43. > :50:50.looking after older people? We have a project in Durham with a club run
:50:50. > :50:53.by one of our workers were lots of the young people in the community
:50:53. > :51:00.volunteer to be part of providing support. It is crossgenerational,
:51:00. > :51:04.and it is that kind of thing that brings about the possibility of
:51:04. > :51:08.change. We will leave it there, partly because the sound quality is
:51:08. > :51:14.not brilliant. But we did hear you and thank you so much. What are your
:51:14. > :51:20.thoughts on this dilemma? There is a real neglect and people wonder how
:51:20. > :51:23.to tackle it. It is not just about money, it is about a change in
:51:23. > :51:26.society but we have to face up to the reality and that reality is that
:51:27. > :51:31.we have a younger generation who will probably not finished paying
:51:31. > :51:36.off their student loans until they are in their early 40s. Are we going
:51:36. > :51:41.to ask them to then spend a large chunk of their income to subsidise a
:51:41. > :51:43.generation who have retired. It is a horrible social problem and it
:51:43. > :51:47.involves an enormous amount of long-term thinking. If we had got
:51:47. > :51:52.the planning right, Esther Rantzen would have been paying for my
:51:52. > :51:55.pension and eye would be paying for my children's pension. Instead, it
:51:55. > :51:59.has gone the opposite way. I want to know what the government is on to do
:51:59. > :52:04.about 40-year-olds now and the social care plan. We need an
:52:04. > :52:07.intergenerational compact in this country and we are so far away from
:52:07. > :52:11.that this point. The younger generation is suffering and will
:52:11. > :52:17.have worse standards of living than their parents. We need nor want to
:52:17. > :52:18.listen to that. We do not want the younger generation setting
:52:19. > :52:23.themselves against the older generation. We want to work
:52:23. > :52:27.together. I do not think he was saying that. He was saying that
:52:27. > :52:29.young people will pay for older people. Yes, and that is a problem.
:52:29. > :52:32.Wait a minute. I am asking for a people. Yes, and that is a problem.
:52:32. > :52:36.change of attitude. Of course, money is crucial. Funding will not be
:52:36. > :52:39.easy. There are many people looking at this very problem right now,
:52:39. > :52:43.particularly in the insurance business. But I am asking for
:52:43. > :52:46.something now, which is that if you have an older person living on your
:52:46. > :52:52.street and you think that they might be living alone, have the courage to
:52:52. > :52:57.bang on the door and say, would you like a cup of tea? It is Sunday and
:52:57. > :53:00.I have just been listening to these people argue and it has made my
:53:00. > :53:09.stomach turn. We can all agree with that. Thank you all very much. Brian
:53:09. > :53:12.from London says, I have worked all my life and all get for free is my
:53:12. > :53:16.winter fuel allowance, prescriptions and pension. Why should I not be
:53:16. > :53:22.able to enjoy that? Michaela says, our attitude and care of older
:53:22. > :53:26.people is worse than pure cultures. But it should be ashamed. Alex says
:53:26. > :53:31.the way that the elderly are treated in this country is patronising.
:53:31. > :53:38.Thank you for your comments. Just a little bit of information. Next
:53:38. > :53:43.Sunday, Radio 2 launches a series of programmes called Living Alone
:53:43. > :53:50.Well. You have been voting in our text for today. Does the EDL point
:53:50. > :53:56.of view deserve to be heard? 95% of you who voted said that yes, it does
:53:56. > :54:02.and 5% said that it does not. We know it is not a scientific poll but
:54:02. > :54:06.it expresses people's opinion. What is your thoughts about this issue? I
:54:06. > :54:11.think that is a remarkable vote. Clearly, we have gone through a long
:54:11. > :54:17.think that is a remarkable vote. process in this country in the last
:54:17. > :54:20.15 years. We have every considered what multiculturalism means. We have
:54:20. > :54:28.got to the point were we all refined enough to realise that big religious
:54:28. > :54:31.groupings have variants within them. And we have seen the Muslim
:54:31. > :54:35.community come out with the last five years and tackle problems,
:54:35. > :54:41.cultural and ledgers problems, internally. We have not heard from
:54:41. > :54:49.Tommy today an apology for causing fear. Fear is what is... If I have
:54:49. > :54:55.caused any fear to any Muslim, I sincerely apologise. But ask them to
:54:55. > :54:59.understand that people in our communities feel fear. That poll is
:54:59. > :55:04.it never can. 45% of people in the Guardian said that they thought this
:55:04. > :55:08.will end in a Civil War with Muslims and Christians. The only way to
:55:08. > :55:12.bring that down is where people see action. That is a scary statistic.
:55:12. > :55:16.Maybe some people will start preparing for that Civil War. That
:55:17. > :55:19.is worrying. Are you going to cooperate with the police in terms
:55:19. > :55:28.of bringing prosecutions for racist behaviour? People within the EDL?
:55:28. > :55:35.That is the police's job. But if you have information is it not your
:55:35. > :55:37.responsibility? Thigh had information on terrorist activity,
:55:37. > :55:42.of course, that is the first thing how would do. But with regards to
:55:42. > :55:46.giving information on EDL supporters, that is not my job. It
:55:47. > :55:49.was my family and I feel like I have lost my family this week. At the
:55:49. > :55:55.same time, I have done it for the right reasons. But you have been
:55:55. > :56:00.given a platform for a crucial discussion. What this platform is
:56:00. > :56:03.saying is, please, let's talk about this. It is only by recognising a
:56:04. > :56:08.problem that we can begin to solve it. Thank you very much. Thank you
:56:08. > :56:12.to everyone who has taken part. There is more on the Silver line
:56:12. > :56:23.website that we were discussing. To all of my guests, many thanks. Do
:56:23. > :56:27.not text or call the phone lines any more. Continue the conversation
:56:27. > :56:38.online and we will see you again next week. Bye-bye.