:00:00. > :00:12.She used to be the sugar sweet Disney star, but do Miley Cyrus's
:00:13. > :00:19.provocative performances means she entered a world which another singer
:00:20. > :00:24.has called dark and highly-styled pornography?
:00:25. > :00:39.And is pop music becoming too sexualised?
:00:40. > :00:46.Good morning, I'm Aquilaniage. Also on today's programme.. The funeral
:00:47. > :00:51.of a former German SS officer is halted in Italy amid angry protests.
:00:52. > :00:54.We ask, should old Nazis be left many peace?
:00:55. > :00:58.And Prince George may have six of them at his christening, but are
:00:59. > :01:03.godparents still relevant? Reverend Kate Bottley thinks so.
:01:04. > :01:09.Some godparents struggle the keep the job up once they work out of the
:01:10. > :01:14.church doors. Others buy presents and Chris and birthdays, but that
:01:15. > :01:21.isn't what it is aboutment godparents aren't just for cyst.
:01:22. > :01:24.Joining me are talent manager Professor Jonathan Shalit, than than
:01:25. > :01:30.also steered Charlotte Church's early career. Broadcaster Nikki
:01:31. > :01:35.Bedi, who has worked in loss ang lys, mum by and London, and Hardeep
:01:36. > :01:41.Singh Kohli, a celebrity chef, broadcaster and stand-up comedian.
:01:42. > :01:54.You can join us via Skype and give your views via Twitter or phone.
:01:55. > :02:05.Music has used sex to shock and sell for decades, from Elvis, to Madonna,
:02:06. > :02:11.to Rihanna and Lady Gaga today. But is twerking just a modern equivalent
:02:12. > :02:17.of Elvis Presley's hip thrusts of the 1950s? At the centre of the
:02:18. > :02:24.debate is 20-year-old Miley Cyrus, whose overtly sexual performances
:02:25. > :02:28.have led to concern, because of the Army of young fans she built as a
:02:29. > :02:36.wholesome Disney star. She was Hannah Montana, the squeak
:02:37. > :02:41.clean Disney star with a legion of pre-teen fans.
:02:42. > :02:47.# Finally I've been waiting for this moment
:02:48. > :02:54.# For you to see the real me # But the real Miley Cyrus was a bit
:02:55. > :03:01.of a surprise. The long hair was out and the raunchy video was in. And
:03:02. > :03:06.when she added twerking, a provocative style of dancing to her
:03:07. > :03:11.repertoire, many were shocked and concerned, including many other
:03:12. > :03:17.female singers. Sinead O'Connor wrote her an open
:03:18. > :03:24.letter saying, is it is really not cool and it is sending dangerous
:03:25. > :03:28.signals to other young women. And Annie Lennox weighed in on
:03:29. > :03:33.social media, I have to say I'm disturbed and dismaid by the recent
:03:34. > :03:40.spate of overtly sexualised performance and videos.
:03:41. > :03:50.Suzi Quatro has been a rock singer since the 1960s. She has misgivings
:03:51. > :03:58.too. If you look at the videos, they are just short of porn, so once this
:03:59. > :04:03.has all been done, all this soft porn, what's next? This is what
:04:04. > :04:08.worries me. Cyrus is unapologetic about her image and says she is in
:04:09. > :04:17.control. But Suzi is concerned about the influence the pop industry has
:04:18. > :04:26.on its young audience. They target very young kids, all pop, I'm
:04:27. > :04:30.talking pop now. 11, 10, 11, 12. Should she really be sexualised to
:04:31. > :04:35.that extent where that looks normal to them? I think it's wrong. Music
:04:36. > :04:41.is music industry. Sex is part of it but it shouldn't be all of it. I
:04:42. > :04:46.firmly believe there should be boundaries. Is Miley Cyrus just
:04:47. > :04:51.sticking her tongue out at convention? Or is her style and that
:04:52. > :04:57.of others of her generation symptomatic of something more
:04:58. > :05:01.disturbing? I have to say, we had a real challenge in finding shots we
:05:02. > :05:05.felt were appropriate to use from Miley Cyrus's videos that we could
:05:06. > :05:10.show at 10 o'clock this morning. Jonathan Shalit, has pop music
:05:11. > :05:14.become too sexualised? Pop music as in youth culture has always been
:05:15. > :05:20.sexualised, that is pop music and pop culture. When youth are
:05:21. > :05:24.provocative, the older generations criticise it, that youth become the
:05:25. > :05:28.older generation but the young behave the way they behaved when
:05:29. > :05:34.they were young. It is a recurring theme. Has pop music become just too
:05:35. > :05:40.sexualised? Text the word vote followed by yes or no to 81771. You
:05:41. > :05:49.can only vote once. You can go online to vote for free.
:05:50. > :05:56.Hardeep Singh Kohli, young people and their music, is it outrageous?
:05:57. > :05:59.Yes and long may it continue to be outrageous, but it needs to be the
:06:00. > :06:03.right sort of outrage. I do feel slightly it is not so much a case of
:06:04. > :06:09.closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. It feels like the
:06:10. > :06:13.horse has already been processed into lasagne at this stage. There is
:06:14. > :06:18.in a wired context, the it is dangerous to remove one element of
:06:19. > :06:22.the popular arts from society generally. I've been genuinely
:06:23. > :06:27.worried about the objectivification of women generally and younger
:06:28. > :06:30.women. We saw supermarkets selling padded Bic pinnies to
:06:31. > :06:36.seven-year-olds. This isn't just about pop music. Which is leading
:06:37. > :06:41.which is the question. Whereas pop music is there to challenge people's
:06:42. > :06:46.econceptions and make them think in a different way, I wonder where this
:06:47. > :06:51.thought process leads us. I took my daughter to see Miley Cyrus, in
:06:52. > :07:00.preparation for the programme today, I thought I should watch the video.
:07:01. > :07:06.Due mean Miley Cyrus or Hannah Montana. Is that the difference if
:07:07. > :07:14.She has to grow up doesn't she? She is 20 years old. We want to own
:07:15. > :07:19.these little prop princesses. She laboured under the strictures of
:07:20. > :07:25.Disney. She wants to come out as an adult. Whether whether she really
:07:26. > :07:29.needs to use pornographic I can onography is debatable but she has
:07:30. > :07:34.to amp everything up to make her point. This issue about who she was,
:07:35. > :07:38.a child star, with those fans who are probably only hitting teenage
:07:39. > :07:41.years now. There not some kind of responsibility that goes with that?
:07:42. > :07:46.Of course there is responsibility. I have to say, I think the majority of
:07:47. > :07:49.the people in the entertainment industry are responsible. It is
:07:50. > :07:55.wrong to look at the industry as a whole and say it is irresponsible. I
:07:56. > :07:59.was driving through Belfast last night and I saw five young girls
:08:00. > :08:03.outside the Mike club wearing the clothes they wanted a. It was very
:08:04. > :08:07.cold and they were wearing virtually no clothes at all. It is what youth
:08:08. > :08:14.is about. If you crush them when they are teenagers and the second
:08:15. > :08:18.she is 18 and can do what she warranting she is going to rebel and
:08:19. > :08:22.become the opposite. Didn't Charlotte Church say she thought
:08:23. > :08:28.when she was a young woman, yes I'm a young woman and it is empowering,
:08:29. > :08:34.and she was encouraged to do it and she regrets it now and she is barely
:08:35. > :08:38.30. Is it their choice or is it misogynistic men? Charlotte Church
:08:39. > :08:43.like any teenager if they are having a career, they've got their parents
:08:44. > :08:48.present. As for the rights and wrongs of Charlotte Church... If
:08:49. > :08:54.they say yes, it is liberating and it is great, but she's said in an
:08:55. > :08:59.interview it did her damage and it is too vulgar for the audience she
:09:00. > :09:04.wants know. Charlotte Church is a great talent but her music didn't go
:09:05. > :09:08.on to sell. Please remember that culture through the centuries has
:09:09. > :09:13.always been provocative and sexy. If you look at the art galleries of the
:09:14. > :09:18.world and look at the nudes... The great respect the difference between
:09:19. > :09:23.the great nudes of Picasso and the like, we are still looking at them
:09:24. > :09:28.200 years on. I doubt anyone will be watching Miley Cyrus in 20 or 30
:09:29. > :09:32.years other than a dis on society. I wonder is there any link between the
:09:33. > :09:36.increased objectification of women in popular culture and the fact that
:09:37. > :09:41.men seem to have their hands on the levers of power? That's not true.
:09:42. > :09:45.That's what I'm asking. If you go around any record or television
:09:46. > :09:49.company where this youth culture is predominantly taken to the public,
:09:50. > :09:56.more women in marketing than there are men. But not in control. The
:09:57. > :10:00.CEOs... How many women are directing the videos that so many people are
:10:01. > :10:05.taking offence for? Rihanna's new video is directed by a man. I'm not
:10:06. > :10:11.saying this is why they are being "sexualised" but the Robin Thicke
:10:12. > :10:15.video. The Blurred Lines one. That was directed bay woman and she had
:10:16. > :10:22.her tongue in cheek and we were supposed to see it as a joke. That's
:10:23. > :10:29.what they said about lad's mag designs. That it was tongue in
:10:30. > :10:33.cheek. Which tongue in which cheek? There's so much concern about their
:10:34. > :10:38.overt sexualisation and young girls feel under pressure. Clearly there
:10:39. > :10:42.are boundaries on everything and there are boundaries pushed beyond
:10:43. > :10:46.what is acceptable. Do remember that you are speaking like an older
:10:47. > :10:54.person who was a younger person once. Who, me? Yes. I support any
:10:55. > :11:00.person's choice to be creatively artistic or artistically creative.
:11:01. > :11:05.You show your body if you want to do that. It might not get you too far.
:11:06. > :11:11.I think younger people are much more intelligent now and savvy than older
:11:12. > :11:17.people realise. Hardeep, do you buy that? No. Either way, Miley Cyrus,
:11:18. > :11:21.in my book, is wrong. If it is something unthinkingly done, she
:11:22. > :11:26.thought, you know... He the look away from the screen. I found that
:11:27. > :11:30.too much to deal with. If it is done with a preconception that it is
:11:31. > :11:36.going to sell records, I feel that's wrong, because look at Jamelia, I've
:11:37. > :11:41.never seen her in anything other than great music... A lot of the
:11:42. > :11:44.critics are people like Annie Lennox and Sinead O'Connor, successful pop
:11:45. > :11:51.stars who've done controversial things in their own past. Again it's
:11:52. > :11:56.the nature of the beast. Sinead O'Connor tore up a picture of the
:11:57. > :12:02.Pope and made a massive statement about women. Annie Lennox played on
:12:03. > :12:07.the and rojny of music. Those are concepts we need to keep alive and
:12:08. > :12:12.discussing. I'm not quite sure, the controversy of Miley Cyrus's video
:12:13. > :12:17.will last as long as the celluloid takes to burn. Madonna used
:12:18. > :12:22.sexuality. Do we think of her as a weak, manipulated woman? You may be
:12:23. > :12:28.right about Miley Cyrus, she may not have the staying power of a Madonna.
:12:29. > :12:32.Isn't the discomfort that a lot of us feel, particularly as the father
:12:33. > :12:37.of a daughter who loved Hannah Montana, we've watched this girl
:12:38. > :12:46.become a woman. It feels as though we are privy to a private awakening.
:12:47. > :12:50.Tilly is a blogger known as, that pesky feminist. Is Miley Cyrus being
:12:51. > :12:54.picked on unfairly, or young women who say we are expressing our
:12:55. > :13:00.artistic independence? Absolutely. It is forgotten that she is 20 years
:13:01. > :13:04.old and it is a tough time. I'm 20. We are not teenagers any more but we
:13:05. > :13:12.still need to carve out our adult life. In the pop industry, that is
:13:13. > :13:17.sexualised, that is known. Charlotte Church said exactly that in her John
:13:18. > :13:22.Peel lecture. Tilly, I think we have a problem with the webcam. Can you
:13:23. > :13:28.start that sentence again Tilly? What sentence? You were just saying
:13:29. > :13:33.the John Peel lecture. Charlotte Church said in her John Peel lecture
:13:34. > :13:38.exactly that, sexualisation is pretty much pressured on to young
:13:39. > :13:42.women and women, and even though I am a proponent of the idea that
:13:43. > :13:47.Miley could very well be choosing this for herself to be in control,
:13:48. > :13:51.we have to accept if she is choosing it, it is from a limited range of
:13:52. > :13:56.options. Is that enough though? When her fan base is very much the
:13:57. > :14:01.pre--teen girls who watched her as Hannah Montana, is it not different?
:14:02. > :14:05.Are you not concerned? Hannah Montana was a character. I
:14:06. > :14:10.appreciate that. For her fans, does it make a difference that her fans
:14:11. > :14:16.are little girls? But she's not making music for little girls any
:14:17. > :14:22.more. Good point. Do the girls not see her as a role model? If they
:14:23. > :14:26.don't, their parents should. OK. Parental responsibility. One
:14:27. > :14:33.wonders, if she isn't making music for little girls, who is she making
:14:34. > :14:39.music for? That is who was buying her music for years. I feel sorry
:14:40. > :14:44.for her dad. I'm sure his achy breaky heart is feeling this. Miley
:14:45. > :14:49.Cyrus is the one having the last laugh. Britney Spears, people looked
:14:50. > :14:54.at her, a successful pop star, ex-Disney and they've seen a public
:14:55. > :14:57.breakdown. It is very easy to create the reason for the public breakdown.
:14:58. > :15:01.Lots of people have breakdowns. The difference is most people don't have
:15:02. > :15:05.them this public. The music industry has no responsibility at all? People
:15:06. > :15:08.will be wondering. Every industry has responsibility. The music
:15:09. > :15:13.industry takes that responsibility very seriously indeed. Britney spear
:15:14. > :15:17.has a history of problems with her own family. It is her family
:15:18. > :15:20.business to sort those problems out. The industry didn't create those
:15:21. > :15:25.problems. It is wrong to blame the industry. Without blaming them I do
:15:26. > :15:32.think they need to take some responsibility. If you look at these
:15:33. > :15:38.pop princesses, Lindsay Lohan, we describe her life as a train wreck,
:15:39. > :15:42.so cruelly. In the age we live in, the when Sinead O'Connor tearing up
:15:43. > :15:45.a picture of the Pope, we saw that on television and occasionally on
:15:46. > :15:53.the internet. Now people are watching across all sorts of media
:15:54. > :15:57.and also the increased take of pornography with young men is
:15:58. > :16:00.creating a Frankenstein's generation. There's a blurring of
:16:01. > :16:13.lines between what's pornography and not normal. Jazz Summers, a music
:16:14. > :16:16.manager, who has managed George Michael and Scissor Sisters, joins
:16:17. > :16:21.us. One would think there is not much left of the imagination from
:16:22. > :16:27.these videos? Well, the gentleman made a very good point just there.
:16:28. > :16:32.We are in an age where everything is instant, whether it be Twitter,
:16:33. > :16:43.Instagram, YouTube. And pornography is huge. That puts pressure on
:16:44. > :16:49.everybody making videos. It puts pressure on the artists and record
:16:50. > :16:59.companies to try and keep up with pornography, which is ridiculous.
:17:00. > :17:04.And with everything being instant, you can do something one-minute in
:17:05. > :17:09.Los Angeles, and everyone knows about it around the world. Do you
:17:10. > :17:14.think there is more artists should do to draw a line and say, we don't
:17:15. > :17:25.need to go that far? Is it tacky, these videos? Absolutely. But as
:17:26. > :17:35.Jonathan said, if you have got a 20-year-old artist like Miley Cyrus,
:17:36. > :17:38.she makes her own decision. Also, people in the music industry are
:17:39. > :17:45.accused of exploiting this. Of course, there are some, mainly in
:17:46. > :17:48.America. Most meetings I have been in record companies around the
:17:49. > :17:54.world, the Americans are the ones who sexualise things more than we
:17:55. > :17:58.do. We are more classy in the UK. Let me read some comments before we
:17:59. > :18:01.continue to stop John says, this has been going on since the 18 ATS Mac.
:18:02. > :18:07.Every generation throws up stuff which can be deemed rude. There are
:18:08. > :18:12.parts of the Bible which could not be on TV. Rob says Miley Cyrus is
:18:13. > :18:15.being used by the industry to make money will stop it is cynical. Sarah
:18:16. > :18:21.says Madonna was doing this years ago, it is just becoming more
:18:22. > :18:24.normal. And Penny says this debate has gone on for decades. There is
:18:25. > :18:29.nothing wrong with young women expressing their sexuality. And RSS
:18:30. > :18:35.pop music has become lazy and sex is used as an easy book. Hardeep Singh
:18:36. > :18:40.Kohli, you were making a distinction between pushing political and social
:18:41. > :18:45.boundaries, and the suppose its soft porn. Looking at the gender bending
:18:46. > :18:49.of Annie Lennox and Madonna, do we look back and that and think it was
:18:50. > :18:58.provoking the right people for the right reasons, or are we just older
:18:59. > :19:06.and more censorious now? It is difficult to legislate for how
:19:07. > :19:11.people express themselves. But lazy is a great way of explaining it. If
:19:12. > :19:14.you push boundaries to the extent that you have images like that of a
:19:15. > :19:20.20-year-old woman, where does one go next? As a feminist, I believe
:19:21. > :19:27.absolutely in the expression of women and I would champion that to
:19:28. > :19:37.my dying breath. But the responsibility that comes with the
:19:38. > :19:40.right of feminist expression... Miley Cyrus is not expressing
:19:41. > :19:45.feminism. That is about a young woman wanting to sell records, and
:19:46. > :19:51.it is not -- it is depressing. Jonathan, what are your thoughts?
:19:52. > :19:57.Have you changed your position? I am hearing opinions that I dreaded of
:19:58. > :20:01.sharing when I was young. We sound like dinosaurs. The point of youth
:20:02. > :20:06.culture is to experiment. I have never said there should be no lines.
:20:07. > :20:11.Most media are responsible and do not show things which should not be
:20:12. > :20:20.shown. But youth culture should revoke. Whereas the legislation on
:20:21. > :20:26.the internet? That is another debate, but you can legislate in
:20:27. > :20:31.terms of the times that music videos can be shown, like MTV does. Things
:20:32. > :20:40.can be an rotation after mid night. Think about artists like Laura
:20:41. > :20:45.Mvula, who don't use their body to sell their music. For every Miley
:20:46. > :20:49.Cyrus, there was a great artist with integrity. Jonathan, if you were
:20:50. > :20:53.advising a young person like Miley Cyrus now, would you say, you have
:20:54. > :20:58.to take your clothes off to get attention and she said, I don't want
:20:59. > :21:04.to, could she still make it? Absolutely. Looking at Adele at the
:21:05. > :21:09.opposite end of the spectrum, she is everything we on this dinosaur panel
:21:10. > :21:14.would like. Don't call us dinosaurs! Let the young beyond. They aren't
:21:15. > :21:19.stupid. They have enough awareness of what is going on around the
:21:20. > :21:23.world. You can't sense of global videos any more. People will decide
:21:24. > :21:27.if they like something. If the quality is not there, people will
:21:28. > :21:32.not buy it. You can do an outrageous video, but if the song is not good,
:21:33. > :21:37.they will fail. We will revisit this at the end of the programme. Our
:21:38. > :21:51.vote is still open. Has rock music become too sexualised? You can only
:21:52. > :21:55.vote once. You have 20 minutes before the vote closes. Still to
:21:56. > :22:03.come: teaching children about christening and a vicar's view on
:22:04. > :22:10.what role godparents have. And the holy spirit. And we all say
:22:11. > :22:14.amen! The body of a hundred -year-old man
:22:15. > :22:20.has been held under guard at a military base near Rome because he
:22:21. > :22:23.has brought back time -- memories of a terrible time in Italian street.
:22:24. > :22:29.He was a former an artsy war criminal. He hid for nearly 50 years
:22:30. > :22:33.after the war and his hometown in Germany have refused to take the
:22:34. > :22:42.body. His burial service this week ended in chaos.
:22:43. > :22:47.This is the funeral, normally an occasion for respect and reverence.
:22:48. > :22:50.Not this one in Rome. German Erich Priebke's hers was besieged by
:22:51. > :22:55.demonstrators and eventually, the burial service had to be called
:22:56. > :23:01.off. He died at the age of 100 after being sentenced to life imprisonment
:23:02. > :23:06.in 1998 for his part in a notorious Nazi massacre in Italy during the
:23:07. > :23:11.Second World War. Erich Priebke was one of the officers in charge of SS
:23:12. > :23:16.troops who executed 335 Italian men and boys in retaliation for the
:23:17. > :23:21.killing of 33 German soldiers by resistance fighters. In a video
:23:22. > :23:30.message released after his death, Erich Priebke said he was just
:23:31. > :23:33.following orders. TRANSLATION: Shultz told everyone the order was
:23:34. > :23:37.coming from Hitler, and if anybody refused to do it, he would be one of
:23:38. > :23:43.the victims and would have been shot. The Vatican ordered that no
:23:44. > :23:48.Catholic Church should host Erich Priebke's funeral, but one splinter
:23:49. > :23:55.group agreed to carry out the service, although the protests
:23:56. > :24:01.prevented that. After the horrors of the Holocaust, the Simon Wiesenthal
:24:02. > :24:05.Center, the Jewish organisation which still hunts Nazi war
:24:06. > :24:08.criminals, said none of those responsible for atrocities including
:24:09. > :24:16.Erich Priebke, deserved to rest in peace. And to underline that, they
:24:17. > :24:20.have launched a poster campaign in Germany, appealing for information
:24:21. > :24:25.about surviving Nazis, under the slogan "late, but not too late" .
:24:26. > :24:29.Erich Priebke's lawyer says he will now be buried at a secret location
:24:30. > :24:34.to avoid further protest. So is it right for older Nazis to still be
:24:35. > :24:40.pursued? You can take part in the debate by webcam or make your point
:24:41. > :24:43.by phone, text, in now or online. It discuss this are Geoffrey Wansell,
:24:44. > :24:48.an author who has written about this, Charlie Wolf and the Reverend
:24:49. > :24:53.Kate Bottley, an Anglican priest from the parish church of St Mary 's
:24:54. > :24:59.in Nottinghamshire. Jeffrey, is it right to still be pursuing these
:25:00. > :25:05.elderly Nazis? Absolutely not. Late and far too late should be the
:25:06. > :25:10.slogan. It is impossible. No one denies the horrors of the Holocaust
:25:11. > :25:16.or the dreadfulness of the Nazi regime. But to take away a
:25:17. > :25:18.91-year-old, my mother is 91 and can barely walk. The thought that
:25:19. > :25:24.someone will arrive at her front door. Let's say she was a chef at
:25:25. > :25:27.Auschwitz, which she wasn't, if someone is going to arrive at her
:25:28. > :25:30.door and send her to prison for three years, where she is going to
:25:31. > :25:36.die, there has to be a line somewhere. The logical place to
:25:37. > :25:45.start is to say, I'm terribly sorry, we must forgive. It is easy to look
:25:46. > :25:49.at people in today's context when they are called and frail, but in
:25:50. > :25:55.the context of 70 years ago, they were strong and evil. This was the
:25:56. > :26:00.biggest evil committed on the planet in the modern era. 6 million Jews
:26:01. > :26:03.and another million Roma, homosexuals and others were not just
:26:04. > :26:07.marched to their death, their humanity was taken from them. They
:26:08. > :26:12.were stripped naked. They had their hair shorn off and the gold taken
:26:13. > :26:16.out of their teeth. They were marched into gas chambers or shocked
:26:17. > :26:21.and dumped into mass graves. This is an evil that has to be recognised.
:26:22. > :26:30.There is no statute of limitations, and there is an obligation to
:26:31. > :26:35.humanity and to these dead people to do this. Kate, the Christian notion
:26:36. > :26:39.of justice is interesting. The Scripture talks about God being a
:26:40. > :26:44.god of love and forgiveness, but also talks about a God of justice
:26:45. > :26:50.and fairness. This is such a difficult area. Whenever we have got
:26:51. > :26:56.war criminals still with us from that era, it is a difficult path to
:26:57. > :27:02.walk. We can see this in the situation in Italy. Geoffrey, if you
:27:03. > :27:09.say it doesn't matter any more... I don't say it doesn't matter. Then
:27:10. > :27:14.why not pursue them? It contradicts the concept of a civilised world. If
:27:15. > :27:20.we are a civilisation, there must come a point at which it is no
:27:21. > :27:30.longer relevant all right or proportional to victimise people. We
:27:31. > :27:36.are victimising them. We are saying, no matter what you may think, I am
:27:37. > :27:39.not saying for a moment that the atrocities were not dreadful. I am
:27:40. > :27:43.simply saying that in a civilised world, we must turn the page. I have
:27:44. > :27:47.talked to Jewish people recently about this, and it contravenes their
:27:48. > :27:55.view of forgiveness. We are in danger of allowing ourselves to be
:27:56. > :28:02.dragged into this. Forgiveness is a personal thing. A law professor
:28:03. > :28:07.friend of mine once said that a trial is an official recollection of
:28:08. > :28:10.history. This is a crime that has to be documented. To find a naughty war
:28:11. > :28:16.criminal and put them on trial is not an act of vengeance, it is an
:28:17. > :28:21.act of justice. That trial is a way of documenting what happened. And we
:28:22. > :28:27.need to continue to document it. At that and a funeral, there were not
:28:28. > :28:30.just protesters, there were Nazi sympathisers. Fascism is still alive
:28:31. > :28:38.and unless we continue to address it, it could flourish again. Let me
:28:39. > :28:51.bring in a contributor via webcam. He is a chief Nazi hunter from the
:28:52. > :28:57.Simon Wiesenthal Center. Your organisation has been behind this
:28:58. > :29:01.campaign to offer rewards for information. One of our guests feels
:29:02. > :29:07.that this hunt is not about justice, it has crossed the line into
:29:08. > :29:16.something inhumane? First of all, there is a line. That line is the
:29:17. > :29:20.physical and mental health of the suspects. We do not want to drag
:29:21. > :29:24.people on their deathbed into a court of law. That will never
:29:25. > :29:28.happen. But if people are healthy enough, there is no reason to ignore
:29:29. > :29:33.them, simply because they were born in 1920. The passage of time in no
:29:34. > :29:39.way diminishes the guilt of the killers. Old age should not afford
:29:40. > :29:48.protection to those who have committed such heinous crimes.
:29:49. > :29:53.Efforts should be made to find the people who turned men, women and
:29:54. > :29:59.children into victims. The sympathy thing expressed by Geoffrey is
:30:00. > :30:05.misplaced. These are people who had no sympathy for their victims,
:30:06. > :30:08.people who, in their prime of life, devoted their energies to the mass
:30:09. > :30:16.murder of innocent civilians. So these trials are important for
:30:17. > :30:22.history and important to fight against Holocaust denial. In my
:30:23. > :30:27.experience, I have never encountered a single case of a Nazi who
:30:28. > :30:33.expressed any remorse. I would say up to a point that's right and I'm
:30:34. > :30:36.not suggesting that a Nazi would express regret. I'm saying that as a
:30:37. > :30:45.society we should take a different view. It seems to me Dr Zuroff
:30:46. > :30:51.you've been getting quite a lot of publicity in pursuit of what seems
:30:52. > :30:56.to me like a vendetta. It is too late. No-one can say the Holocaust
:30:57. > :31:01.has not been broughtally displayed, drawn over, raked over. When is the
:31:02. > :31:06.time to stop? I think it has come now. Doesn't each one of the victims
:31:07. > :31:14.of the Nazis deserve that if the people who murdered them are found,
:31:15. > :31:19.and are healthy enough to be held accountable, that they will held
:31:20. > :31:26.accountable? The Nazi were civilised people. They went home after
:31:27. > :31:32.murdering mass numbers of Jews and listened to classical music. Is that
:31:33. > :31:36.the civilisation you want? Kate, it is interesting that feelings are so
:31:37. > :31:40.high and there is a strong neo-Nazi movement. Is there a greater concern
:31:41. > :31:46.as these last few surviving war criminals and indeed Holocaust
:31:47. > :31:50.survivor reaching the ends of their lives that there is an extra
:31:51. > :31:54.impetus? There is a sense of him running out. I was listening to one
:31:55. > :31:59.of the Holocaust survivors speaking and there is a sense that this will
:32:00. > :32:03.soon become not first-hand history but second-hand history. There is
:32:04. > :32:09.that sense of time moving on. There is a worry that graves of Nazi war
:32:10. > :32:13.criminals will become shrines to the next generation of neo-Nazis. We do
:32:14. > :32:17.have a responsibility I think to the next generation to send out a very
:32:18. > :32:23.strong message. But at the same time we have a sense of responsibility to
:32:24. > :32:28.talk about justice, but also mercy and also... And forgiveness?
:32:29. > :32:33.Sometimes people think that the word forgiveness is an easy way out for
:32:34. > :32:36.the criminal, but for me the way I understand forgiveness it is much
:32:37. > :32:39.more about release for the victim. Talking about forgiveness doesn't
:32:40. > :32:44.mean that people are getting away with a crime. It means that it
:32:45. > :32:48.provides some sort of solace. I agree with you, but forgiveness is a
:32:49. > :32:53.personal thing. The scales of justice as a society need to be
:32:54. > :33:00.balanced. To address Geoffrey, it is not vindictive. These people aren't
:33:01. > :33:04.being taken out in the street and having fruit thrown at them or being
:33:05. > :33:09.murdered in public lynchings, they are being taken to court and if they
:33:10. > :33:15.can stand trial, they do. The look at Erich Priebke. He had his days
:33:16. > :33:19.living happily in Argentina #57d was -- and was brought back on trial.
:33:20. > :33:25.Even then he didn't go to jail. He went to his lawyer's house and died
:33:26. > :33:32.peacefully in his sleep at the age of 100. That's not how the people of
:33:33. > :33:36.the Holocaust died. I urge people to go to Auschwitz or the national
:33:37. > :33:41.Holocaust museum in Washington DC and see how these people died. I
:33:42. > :33:46.want to bring in a few viewer contributions. An anonymous one says
:33:47. > :33:51.we will only subject the Nazis to the justice that they denied to
:33:52. > :33:54.others. That is not cruel but the highest expression of humanity.
:33:55. > :33:59.Should people escape justice because you are old? No, justice is blind.
:34:00. > :34:04.Nazis should be found and prosecuted. This one says my
:34:05. > :34:10.grandparents didn't live to their 90s so why should these people live
:34:11. > :34:19.though their 90s? It is wrong. This one says what Erich Priebke did is
:34:20. > :34:23.wrong. Crispin Black is an intelligence consultant and is
:34:24. > :34:28.former British officer. You were in Berlin when this poster campaign
:34:29. > :34:32.began. How do they feel about this, the idea in Germany? One of the
:34:33. > :34:37.interesting things about Berlin is it is set up really in part as a
:34:38. > :34:42.memorial to the Holocaust and the disasters and nightmares and evil of
:34:43. > :34:48.the Nazi regime. There are posters all around Berlin anyway of
:34:49. > :34:51.Berliners, mainly Jewish Berliners but also Social Democrats and
:34:52. > :34:56.political opponents of Hitler who disappeared in the 1930s and '40s.
:34:57. > :35:03.I'm slightly on Geoffrey's side. I think that the Germans have made a
:35:04. > :35:08.civilised attempt over 60 years to try and memorialise honestly the
:35:09. > :35:13.horrors of that period. Also if you walk around Berlin you get a sense
:35:14. > :35:19.of the terrible tragedy inflicted on the inhabitants of Berlin by the
:35:20. > :35:23.Second World War. Incidentally never a Nazi city, I think the German
:35:24. > :35:28.Government has made such a huge effort, there are neo-Nazis there,
:35:29. > :35:33.but you don't see or hear of them. The state is clearly deep ashamed
:35:34. > :35:37.and sorry about this and it is probably time to move on. Charlie?
:35:38. > :35:42.But the problem is it is not about the Germans or Germany but these
:35:43. > :35:49.individuals. I have no vendetta against the German people. It is the
:35:50. > :35:54.Simon Wiesenthal Center and private Nazi hunters that go out and want to
:35:55. > :36:06.bring them back to justice. As we know from the Danjnuc case, the
:36:07. > :36:10.courts have a duty and obligation to try that person. If someone wants to
:36:11. > :36:14.make a defence of, I was just following orders or I was a cook
:36:15. > :36:22.under threat of my own life, let them have their day in court. I want
:36:23. > :36:28.to bring Dr Efraim Zuroff back. You heard what was said, there that the
:36:29. > :36:33.Germans are ashamed by it and enough has been done. What Mr Black did not
:36:34. > :36:37.mention was the announcement that September 3rd this year by the
:36:38. > :36:43.German prosecution, they are recommending the prosecution in
:36:44. > :36:48.Germany of 30 people who served as guards at the Birkenau death camp,
:36:49. > :36:52.where 1. 3 million human beings were murdered, among them 1. 1 million
:36:53. > :36:58.Jews. So the state, Germany, which has done a lot - no question - in
:36:59. > :37:03.terms of dealing with the Holocaust continues to understand that it has
:37:04. > :37:08.an obligation to bring those perpetrators who again who can be
:37:09. > :37:12.brought to prosecution, who are healthy enough to stand trial, to
:37:13. > :37:15.have their day in court and send a very powerful message that the
:37:16. > :37:20.crimes of the Holocaust are so terrible that even today many, many
:37:21. > :37:24.years later it is still a worthy effort and a noble mission to try
:37:25. > :37:28.and find them and hold them to account. Geoffrey, is it enough to
:37:29. > :37:36.say everyone is very ashamed of it, isn't that the easy option, as Dr
:37:37. > :37:41.Efraim Zuroff would say? I'm saying it is not an easy option but
:37:42. > :37:46.sometimes to take a silised view as society is important. It is far too
:37:47. > :37:50.easy to knee-jerk the reaction to say it was dreadful and we must do
:37:51. > :37:56.something dreadful by way of revenge. This is not revenge but a
:37:57. > :38:02.call to justice. It's the same sort of justice. Taking a 90-year-old, is
:38:03. > :38:08.that justice? However long it takes to balance the scales of justice is
:38:09. > :38:13.only fair. If it was my child has was killed, 90 years from now I
:38:14. > :38:19.would want to bring the perpetrator to justice. I don't think Ian Brady
:38:20. > :38:22.because he is an old man should be allowed out of prison. We have
:38:23. > :38:26.crimes that need to have the scales of justice balanced. This is a prime
:38:27. > :38:28.example. We have to leave it there but thank you for your honest and
:38:29. > :38:32.frank discussion. It is time to look at another of the
:38:33. > :38:36.stories making the news. We look at what's been in the papers. We want
:38:37. > :38:41.to look first at this story in today's Sunday Times of a woman who
:38:42. > :38:46.is a childcare worker who is bringing the case under the Human
:38:47. > :38:51.Rights Act as a Christian to say she shouldn't have to work on a Sunday.
:38:52. > :38:56.I used to work in a shopping centre as a teenager. It was clear I wanted
:38:57. > :39:02.to take Sundays off so I could go to church. It is protected in retail.
:39:03. > :39:06.What I would say, for me, what I understand the law about Sabbath to
:39:07. > :39:09.be is the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. The
:39:10. > :39:12.spirit of the law in that case for me of that commandment is make sure
:39:13. > :39:18.you get proper time off with your family. That might look like a holy
:39:19. > :39:21.day, or a Sunday, but it might also be a day in the week where you take
:39:22. > :39:25.proper time away. So the spirit of the law is more important for me.
:39:26. > :39:29.What do you think art this, Charlie? There was a case recently about
:39:30. > :39:33.someone denied jobseeker's allowance in the Jewish community because he
:39:34. > :39:37.said I wasn't available to work on a Saturday but was available on all
:39:38. > :39:41.the other days. That was unfair. We should try to respect the Sabbath
:39:42. > :39:45.where possible. As a Jew I know if I'm called to work upon a Saturday
:39:46. > :39:49.it is because of what I do as a living and I accept that. We have to
:39:50. > :39:53.balance the needs of people with the needs of business. Some small
:39:54. > :39:58.employers, it may not be possible but we should try to work together.
:39:59. > :40:03.I'm I wonder if I'm allowed to go on to the other story, that Archbishop
:40:04. > :40:08.of Canterbury is critical of energy companies putting up their prices
:40:09. > :40:16.and says there's a moral obligation to think of the impact. A bit rich
:40:17. > :40:20.from a march who used to work for an oil company. The Church of England
:40:21. > :40:25.has shares in Centrica and others. He is trying to make his mark as
:40:26. > :40:29.Archbishop of Canterbury. Fair-dos to that. I think it is pretty
:40:30. > :40:35.hypocritical. He is riding a wave. We all now know that after bankers
:40:36. > :40:44.it is going to be energy executives that will get a Tuesdaying in the
:40:45. > :40:52.Commons. 2 5 billion last year He is your boss. He is not my boss, but my
:40:53. > :40:55.manager. I'm a big Justin fan. I think as the Church of England we
:40:56. > :40:59.have a role and responsibility in commenting on big matters like this.
:41:00. > :41:02.Jesus never shied from challenging the powers of authority. I think we
:41:03. > :41:05.have a responsibility to do the same. We'll have the leave it there
:41:06. > :41:12.but thank you all very much indeed. You've been voting at home on our
:41:13. > :41:16.poll question on whether pop music has become too sexualised in the
:41:17. > :41:21.light of Miley Cyrus and some of the videos and the twerking. The vote is
:41:22. > :41:27.closing now, so do not text, as your vote will not count and you may bed.
:41:28. > :41:34.We'll bring the vote at the end of the programme.
:41:35. > :41:40.First, the Prince George, the son of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge,
:41:41. > :41:44.will be christened next when at St James's Palace in London. The couple
:41:45. > :41:48.may choose six godparents and they may include close personal friends
:41:49. > :41:52.rather than royal relatives. But is the role of a godparent still an
:41:53. > :41:57.important religious duty or a quaint old tradition that no longer holds
:41:58. > :42:07.any relevance? Reverend Kate Bottley has no doubts about the issue. This
:42:08. > :42:11.is her Sunday Stance. At the churches I look after we
:42:12. > :42:17.introduced children to the meaning of baptism by doing a mock-up of the
:42:18. > :42:23.ceremony using dolls and teddies. It can ba splashy business but it is
:42:24. > :42:27.magical time. Christening is a fundamental part of being a
:42:28. > :42:33.Christian and being asked to be a godmother or godfather is a sacred
:42:34. > :42:37.duty. It is easy to make a promise on the day, but keeping that promise
:42:38. > :42:42.and ensuring you're there for the child is a much bigger challenge.
:42:43. > :42:48.I'm really blessed. I'm the vicar of three wonderful villages where I
:42:49. > :42:52.christen around 30 children a year. I see some very active godparents. I
:42:53. > :42:58.know the value it can bring, but it is not always the case. Some good
:42:59. > :43:03.parents struggle to keep the job up once they walk out of the church
:43:04. > :43:09.doors. Others simply send presents at Chris and birthdays. Godparents
:43:10. > :43:13.aren't just for Christmas. Godparenting is about that God
:43:14. > :43:18.conversation, about praying for the godchild, bringing them to a place
:43:19. > :43:21.like this into the family of the Church and teaching them about
:43:22. > :43:24.Jesus. It is also about supporting them on the right path in life and
:43:25. > :43:29.helping them to make good, moral choices. These are not easy things
:43:30. > :43:33.to do, but they remain hugely relevant. So if you are choosing a
:43:34. > :43:37.good parent or you've been asked to be one, think about it. You are
:43:38. > :43:44.about to take a very important step. One that could change your life. And
:43:45. > :43:49.we all say, amen. The views of the Reverend Kate
:43:50. > :43:53.Bottley. We are joined by this discussion by Kate and Hardeep Singh
:43:54. > :43:59.Kohli and Nikki Bedi. I gather you are a godparent, what are they for?
:44:00. > :44:04.Many times over. What are they for? In four cases parents chose me and
:44:05. > :44:09.the fifth case the child chose me. She wasn't baptised or christened
:44:10. > :44:15.and she missed out on what everybody else seemed to be having. I think a
:44:16. > :44:19.godparent is there to show a special interest in that child. I don't give
:44:20. > :44:23.spiritual guide arrange even though I have a background that's
:44:24. > :44:31.predominantly Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist. My godmother is Jehovah's
:44:32. > :44:35.Witness. I do my duty to her by attending some meetings, even though
:44:36. > :44:41.I don't believe in a word of it. But you haven't been able to be a
:44:42. > :44:48.godparent in some cases? My sister is a Catholic, has seven children.
:44:49. > :44:55.They say, aunty Nikki, will you be going to Mass? And I say aunty Nikki
:44:56. > :45:03.will be washing her since away in a bath with bubbles. I am subversive
:45:04. > :45:07.and naughty but I have a moral compass. Hardeep, do people have
:45:08. > :45:12.time to be a proper godparent these days? If one looks historically at
:45:13. > :45:15.the role of godparents they were very much within a community, around
:45:16. > :45:20.the church, and you were seeing that godparents. I grew up in Glasgow and
:45:21. > :45:23.we were parented by society, so theicalliy on the bus home would
:45:24. > :45:28.parent you, the parky would parent you. By lots of people. As we lead
:45:29. > :45:32.more dislocated lives, more shift work, people working away, I think
:45:33. > :45:36.the role of godparenting has changed. I'm lucky I'm a godparent
:45:37. > :45:42.three times over, but that's only because I imported olive oil to New
:45:43. > :45:46.York. I made a reference to the Godfather film which seemed to be
:45:47. > :45:59.lost on almost everyone, including me! I don't hear the word God in
:46:00. > :46:04.gods parent. Not many people do it for religious reasons. Should they
:46:05. > :46:09.turn it down if they are not Christian? I don't think so. I have
:46:10. > :46:11.christening conversations in the pub with my godparents and parents who
:46:12. > :46:15.are getting their children christened. I say to them that it is
:46:16. > :46:20.about being on that journey. We are all on a journey of faith, even
:46:21. > :46:26.those of us who are professional Christians, if you like. We are all
:46:27. > :46:34.trying to figure out a spiritual path. I am not. That is the issue. A
:46:35. > :46:43.lot of people are not on the path, that do not buy into any faith. They
:46:44. > :46:48.struggle to find a modern role. To show kindness is an example. If you
:46:49. > :46:53.have another faith, can you be a God parent? Not officially. You need to
:46:54. > :46:59.be christened. But we also have people we call sponsors. You were
:47:00. > :47:04.saying it takes a village to raise a child, and where I work, it is a
:47:05. > :47:11.village. I see godparents out in the shops. But in a spread out society,
:47:12. > :47:14.that becomes more difficult. It has become an increasingly godless
:47:15. > :47:19.society, and it becomes difficult. You are not held to account by the
:47:20. > :47:22.church so much. With respect, even members of the Church are not help
:47:23. > :47:29.to account by the church properly, so lay members of the Church can't
:47:30. > :47:33.expect any sort of traction by the church. But I do think a gap is
:47:34. > :47:38.being filled in formally. For brown folk that grew up, we have an
:47:39. > :47:43.informal network. But in a godless society, what is the role of
:47:44. > :47:45.godparents? Let me bring in someone from the British Humanist
:47:46. > :47:55.Association. What is your view on godparents? Do they have a role? I
:47:56. > :48:03.agree that if a godparents shares the same belief system as the
:48:04. > :48:07.family, it is a recognisable role. But a lot of godparents who are
:48:08. > :48:12.elected don't have any religion, and therefore find themselves
:48:13. > :48:16.hamstrung. They don't know what to do. They have the best interests of
:48:17. > :48:21.the child at heart, but they are not sure how to operate with the child.
:48:22. > :48:28.I am human list and don't believe in God. Therefore, a godparent is
:48:29. > :48:36.irrelevant to me. But I have heard that humanists can be guide parents,
:48:37. > :48:50.here and that! That is a fantastic alternative term. Thank you for
:48:51. > :48:53.that. Isabel, in reality, our humanists
:48:54. > :48:59.that. Isabel, in reality, our role they could fill as a substitute
:49:00. > :49:03.guide? Yes, and not a substitute. It is a very real role. Sorry, I am
:49:04. > :49:07.afraid is a very real role. Sorry, I am
:49:08. > :49:14.the audio on your Skype, so forgive us. Hardeep, let me move it on to
:49:15. > :49:18.what you were saying about how a lot of cultural networks in Asian
:49:19. > :49:24.families don't do godparents, but they have huge support networks. I
:49:25. > :49:27.used a thing, I don't have godparents, so there must be
:49:28. > :49:31.something wrong with me. But you can have godparents and not miss Sarah
:49:32. > :49:35.Lee have a relationship with them. Is there an issue about it not being
:49:36. > :49:39.as important a role in reality as it is supposed to be? B families can
:49:40. > :49:44.break on and nobody knows that more than eight hundred the Glaswegian.
:49:45. > :49:50.But there is something about having an extended family and always having
:49:51. > :49:54.someone to turn to for advice. I regard my relationship with my
:49:55. > :49:58.younger brother's children as far more profound than God parenting. I
:49:59. > :50:06.feel like they are my children. As they get older, they will spend more
:50:07. > :50:09.time with me. There was that notion within bigger families in a
:50:10. > :50:13.different age when people had more children that there was always
:50:14. > :50:20.someone to turn to. But is there a sense that it has become a
:50:21. > :50:25.middle-class status symbol thing? There is an honour about being asked
:50:26. > :50:31.to be a godparent. Lots of families see it as a way of ringing in
:50:32. > :50:36.friends for the rest of that child's lives. So where friendships
:50:37. > :50:43.might break down over the years, if you are tied in as a godparent, you
:50:44. > :50:46.are a friend for life. Lots of gap parents I talked to say, I am not
:50:47. > :50:53.sure what I believe, but I like to think I set a good moral example. I
:50:54. > :50:58.asked my godson's mother, why did you choose me as a godmother? He is
:50:59. > :51:04.now 18. I'd handled him on my knee as a baby, and now he is at Oxford.
:51:05. > :51:08.Fantastic. And she said, because I knew you would always be there. But
:51:09. > :51:12.having said that, isn't the rule that if anything happens to the
:51:13. > :51:16.parents, you take them on? I could never have done that. Let me bring
:51:17. > :51:23.in another contributor, the author of Pope Francis - and tying the
:51:24. > :51:26.knot. What do you make of all the non-Christians who are opting for
:51:27. > :51:31.God parenting and whether they are taking on role as they should? B
:51:32. > :51:36.well, I think that that shows that imitation is the sincerest form of
:51:37. > :51:40.flattery. It obviously works. Godparents were first introduced in
:51:41. > :51:45.the early church. The godparents would promise to look after the
:51:46. > :51:50.child's mind, body and spirit. They would help the parents. They were
:51:51. > :51:58.introduced because they were converts in Roman times who did not
:51:59. > :52:03.have parents who were Christians, so people would stand beside them will
:52:04. > :52:08.stop it has become a system which works in lots of ways. If you
:52:09. > :52:12.minister want to do that, that is fine. When I was researching the
:52:13. > :52:18.book on the Pope, I talked to one of his friends who had asked him to be
:52:19. > :52:22.a godparent, but the boy was also christened quite a late and they
:52:23. > :52:25.wanted another friend to be godparent who was Jewish. And the
:52:26. > :52:29.parish priest said, you can't have a Jewish person as a godparent. And
:52:30. > :52:34.the Pope, who was not the Pope then, said yes, you can. As long as
:52:35. > :52:38.I am that look after the Catholic side, he can look after the other
:52:39. > :52:46.side. So we have a Pope who thinks it is OK for godparents to not
:52:47. > :52:51.necessarily be of the same faith. It shows the breadth of what is needed.
:52:52. > :52:58.The important thing about Prince William and Kate is that they are
:52:59. > :53:02.not going for the old Royal formula of choosing heads of royalty from
:53:03. > :53:12.around Europe. They are getting their friends to do it. It is the
:53:13. > :53:15.friends who understand more. Am I the only one looking forward to
:53:16. > :53:29.seeing these godparents featured on the cover of magazines? By the way,
:53:30. > :53:34.I had an audience with Pope John Paul II. So for my Catholic sister,
:53:35. > :53:38.I have delivered a christening gift seven times over. You are a
:53:39. > :53:43.one-woman panel discussion on religion and ethics, Nikki! Thank
:53:44. > :53:49.you very much. Marie says the role of godparent is good, but it should
:53:50. > :53:52.be divorced from religion. Lizzie says godparenting has no legal
:53:53. > :53:57.status, so it means nothing. Now, you have been voting in our text
:53:58. > :54:01.vote. Has pop music become to six large? We could have had this
:54:02. > :54:10.discussion 50 years ago, but here is what you told us today. 90% of you
:54:11. > :54:18.said yes and 10% said no. Kate, as the vicar on the panel. The moral
:54:19. > :54:22.compass. You heard the discussion about Miley Cyrus. Her critics
:54:23. > :54:27.include women who made it themselves as pop singers at times when people
:54:28. > :54:31.talked about too much sex in music. Youth culture is always going to
:54:32. > :54:35.tread a fine line between appropriate and inappropriate. Its
:54:36. > :54:40.role is to push boundaries. If it was my daughter, would I be happy?
:54:41. > :54:46.Probably not. But it is good to have the debate. As you say, it is a
:54:47. > :54:50.conversation that has been going for generations. Part of the role of
:54:51. > :54:54.people in the industry is to advise the younger ones. I hope she is
:54:55. > :54:59.getting good advice and doing it because she wants to. There are
:55:00. > :55:03.limits. Were discussing where this goes from here. It can't go further
:55:04. > :55:09.unless somebody has their legs open and showing bits of their body that
:55:10. > :55:13.they shouldn't. In that case, there are laws, decency laws to prevent
:55:14. > :55:21.that. Everything is going to swing around again. This is a watershed
:55:22. > :55:24.moment. People on Twitter were criticising me for saying Madonna
:55:25. > :55:31.was OK for doing it and Miley Cyrus wasn't. The difference is the
:55:32. > :55:33.watershed in terms of the dissemination of media is very
:55:34. > :55:38.different now from when Madonna was doing it. Also, we didn't grow up
:55:39. > :55:45.watching Madonna as a child. Imagine Shirley Temple doing what Miley
:55:46. > :55:52.Cyrus has done. That has put weird images in everyone's head. That is
:55:53. > :55:56.how a generation of feeling. Madonna and Debbie Harry were also over 30
:55:57. > :56:03.when they hit the big time. Does that not make a difference? Debbie
:56:04. > :56:07.Harry was accused of being too sexy. Isn't that interesting? The sexiest
:56:08. > :56:12.people from history are people who have put more clothes on and removed
:56:13. > :56:16.them. For me, it is to binary to think, take some clothes off...
:56:17. > :56:21.Gosh, I have seen it all with more clothes on in the shower than Miley
:56:22. > :56:28.Cyrus in that video. It is also about young girls watching and young
:56:29. > :56:33.pop stars. It is about choice for me. I have a 12-year-old daughter. I
:56:34. > :56:38.hope I am doing a good enough job as a parent, and her godmothers are
:56:39. > :56:42.doing a good enough job that she knows this is about choice and
:56:43. > :56:48.empowerment. If Miley Cyrus is being forced into this, that is one
:56:49. > :56:52.conversation. But boys are watching that and thinking that is what girls
:56:53. > :56:59.should do, and that is equally worrying. Thank you to everyone who
:57:00. > :57:08.has taken part in our discussions. Thank you to all my guests. Don't
:57:09. > :57:12.text or call the phone lines any more. They are now closed, but you
:57:13. > :57:18.can continue the conversation online. The links are on our
:57:19. > :57:21.website. Before we say goodbye, we may need to acknowledge that one of
:57:22. > :57:24.the Reverend Kate Buckley's hidden talents is as a dance. And when a
:57:25. > :57:28.couple asked for a different sort of wedding, Kate obliged in style. You
:57:29. > :58:18.may kiss your bride. Kate has raised the expectations for
:58:19. > :58:25.all our religious guest from now on! Join us again next -- again.
:58:26. > :58:28.Goodbye.