:00:08. > :00:13.How would you feel it your child was taken away because of the colour of
:00:14. > :00:16.its hair? That's what happened to two innocent Roma families this
:00:17. > :00:22.week, after this child in Greece captured headlines around the
:00:23. > :00:39.world. We ask, are Roma people unfairly stigmatised?
:00:40. > :00:47.Good morning, I'm Katie Derham. Also today, with a creaking and
:00:48. > :00:53.cash-strapped NHS, is it time to start coughing up for some of the
:00:54. > :00:57.treatments we receive? Former the Sun editor Kelvin MacKenzie thinks
:00:58. > :01:04.we should. Motherism, to stay at mums deserve more respect? It's
:01:05. > :01:10.really important to be there for our children. And we meet the Vicar of
:01:11. > :01:15.40 years who has an unusual take on religion. I don't think that a god
:01:16. > :01:21.exists. I believe in God, like I believe in happiness or Geordie or
:01:22. > :01:28.goodwill, hope or something like that. Joining me this week is the
:01:29. > :01:33.former editor of the Sun, Kelvin MacKenzie, journalist and writer
:01:34. > :01:35.Julie Bindel, who set up a group campaigning against violence from a
:01:36. > :01:43.feminist perspective, and David Vance. We want to know what you
:01:44. > :01:47.think, too. If you have a webcam you can join us via Skype. You can also
:01:48. > :02:00.give your views via Twitter or by phone.
:02:01. > :02:06.The case of a young girl found in Greece with aroma couple to whom she
:02:07. > :02:11.was not related has raised fears of a backlash against a community that
:02:12. > :02:15.already feels it's an stay at -- unfairly stigmatised. Two children
:02:16. > :02:18.from Roma families in Ireland were removed from their homes by police,
:02:19. > :02:22.only to be quickly returned when it became clear they did belong to
:02:23. > :02:26.their parents. An organisation in Ireland said the action of the
:02:27. > :02:30.authorities could fuel racism. The discovery of a young, blonde girl
:02:31. > :02:36.called Maria in a Roma community in Greece 11 days ago has focused
:02:37. > :02:40.attention on one of the world 's oldest nomadic peoples. Yesterday it
:02:41. > :02:45.was revealed that a Roma couple in Bulgaria, the biological parents of
:02:46. > :02:50.Maria. The authorities there are currently investigating how their
:02:51. > :02:53.child ended up in Greece. Roma rights organisations are concerned
:02:54. > :02:59.it will resurrect old prejudices against them. With the Greek case
:03:00. > :03:03.making headlines, police in Ireland removed two blonde haired children
:03:04. > :03:08.from Roma communities there. They were returned quickly once their
:03:09. > :03:11.parentage was concerned, but the families remain outraged. We are
:03:12. > :03:15.very conscious of the fact that this case has been linked with events in
:03:16. > :03:19.other countries, which have nothing to do with them. They hope that no
:03:20. > :03:27.other family has to go through the experience that they have just
:03:28. > :03:31.suffered. The Irish Justice Minister says they feel sorry for the
:03:32. > :03:34.distress that was caused to the families, but the police were acting
:03:35. > :03:38.in good faith, responding to information given by members of the
:03:39. > :03:42.public. This isn't the first time that prejudices like this have
:03:43. > :03:47.surfaced. Two years ago, the fiction of travellers on the Dale Farm site
:03:48. > :03:52.in Essex provoked angry scenes and claims of racial discrimination. So
:03:53. > :03:59.do we view Roma people unfairly? If people within the Roma and Gypsy
:04:00. > :04:04.community feel themselves stigmatised, frankly, they've only
:04:05. > :04:08.got themselves to blame. It is obviously wrong to try and demonise
:04:09. > :04:12.an entire group of people but, by the same token, it's almost entirely
:04:13. > :04:17.wrong to stick your head in the sand and ignore the fact that section of
:04:18. > :04:23.that community is up to its neck in every form of criminality,
:04:24. > :04:27.including, as we've seen in the BT, child trafficking, including, as
:04:28. > :04:31.we've seen in the courts in England, human slavery, including, as we see
:04:32. > :04:38.on a frequent basis, occupation of private property. They are their own
:04:39. > :04:42.worst enemies. This is our question today. Are Roma people unfairly
:04:43. > :04:48.stigmatised? We want to know what you think.
:04:49. > :04:57.You can only vote once. Go online to vote for free. The results will be
:04:58. > :05:03.announced at the end of the show. The full terms and conditions on the
:05:04. > :05:09.website. We've already heard from David. Julie, these two children who
:05:10. > :05:12.were taken away rather rapidly in Ireland, then it turned out they
:05:13. > :05:16.were living with their parents after all, they are quite remarkable. But
:05:17. > :05:23.the authorities clearly had the children's best interests at heart.
:05:24. > :05:28.All stigmatisation is fuelled by stereotypes and mythology. I find
:05:29. > :05:33.David's views abhorrent. Every single community has a section that
:05:34. > :05:39.is involved in criminality. Not in human slavery. And certainly the
:05:40. > :05:42.Roma and Gypsy communities are unfairly maligned, stigmatised, have
:05:43. > :05:47.very low life expectancy, are treated appallingly. I think this is
:05:48. > :05:54.fuelled by prejudice and racism. It is definitely the last acceptable
:05:55. > :05:58.racism. If we were to talk about Jewish people the way that we speak
:05:59. > :06:01.about Roma and Gypsy people, there would likely be an outcry.
:06:02. > :06:06.Definitely there is an unfair prejudice. Whether or not the
:06:07. > :06:10.authorities were acting in the best interests of the child is another
:06:11. > :06:16.matter. But we can't ignore the fact that we are fuelled in terms of
:06:17. > :06:21.policing and all other escapades in terms of criminal activity. Kelvin,
:06:22. > :06:25.do you think the authorities would have behaved in this way had they
:06:26. > :06:30.not been children in a Roma community? It happens all the time.
:06:31. > :06:35.Social services are moving in to take children away from parents for
:06:36. > :06:39.much less serious ideas than that children have either been bought or
:06:40. > :06:45.put into a kind of slavery. I think the issue here is it is difficult to
:06:46. > :06:50.know whether it is a Roma issue, which may be one issue, or is it a
:06:51. > :06:54.travellers issue? I know in the UK, a particular case myself. A guy
:06:55. > :06:59.called me up who actually knows my wife. He has had his health
:07:00. > :07:02.destroyed, the value of his house completely damaged by the fact that
:07:03. > :07:07.very cunningly and cleverly and using the laws of its time, these
:07:08. > :07:13.guys moved onto a piece of land that they either bought secretly from the
:07:14. > :07:18.farmer or with the farmer's Nord. Came on to this land and it has now
:07:19. > :07:22.taken years to get them off again. In the meantime, casting of light
:07:23. > :07:28.across the entire village. That kind of thing... I'm not impugning the
:07:29. > :07:34.entire community of travellers, nor am I saying this is something Roma,
:07:35. > :07:39.but what I do know is this man Isner likelihood, health, family and the
:07:40. > :07:43.value of his house has been destroyed. Literally, it looks as
:07:44. > :07:48.though nothing can be done about it. I think it's important we hear from
:07:49. > :07:54.the Roma community at this point. We are joined now from London by Jake
:07:55. > :07:58.Bowers, a journalist, a representative of the Roma
:07:59. > :08:01.community. Before we start talking about things like the property
:08:02. > :08:06.issues and so one that Kelvin has raised, let me bring you back to the
:08:07. > :08:23.cases of the two children who were taken away in Ireland. How did you
:08:24. > :08:25.feel, as a representative for your community, did you feel that was a
:08:26. > :08:28.discriminatory action? Absolutely. We've been demonised by the media
:08:29. > :08:30.over the last week. What you've seen happen is this old myth has been
:08:31. > :08:32.resurrected about gypsies stealing children. They used to be an ancient
:08:33. > :08:35.lugged libel where the Jewish people were represented as people who stole
:08:36. > :08:37.children so they could drink their blood. That has been updated over
:08:38. > :08:39.the last week and projected against the entire Romany community in
:08:40. > :08:42.Europe, that we snatched children. But we have been demonised but we've
:08:43. > :08:45.also been vindicated. Because in all of these cases, these have been
:08:46. > :08:49.Romany children that belong to their parents. What has happened in the
:08:50. > :08:53.process is these parents in Dublin, they were forced through some kind
:08:54. > :09:35.of Jeremy Kyle type of policing, where they had to give DNA samples
:09:36. > :09:37.for children which they proved were theirs through passports and birth
:09:38. > :09:40.certificates. I'm in London, a wonderfully diverse place. You would
:09:41. > :09:42.never see a white woman who had a mixed-race child dragged off the
:09:43. > :09:45.street and being forced to give DNA sim - Maggie and a samples for the
:09:46. > :09:46.children. We are talking about a completely different level of
:09:47. > :09:49.discrimination, which is medieval. How unusual is it for Romany
:09:50. > :09:52.children to be quite as blonde as the ones we've seen in the press?
:09:53. > :09:55.It's not unusual at all. I'm going increasingly grey but I used to have
:09:56. > :09:57.white blonde hair. My children all have blonde hair. My wife is quite
:09:58. > :10:00.dark. That's a picture of me with my it isn't unusual at all, but it goes
:10:01. > :10:03.to show the depth of ignorance which is being perpetuated by people like
:10:04. > :10:05.Kelvin MacKenzie, which is completely predictable in trying to
:10:06. > :10:07.divert this to Dale even about the Romany community. All broadcasters
:10:08. > :10:10.have a moral duty not just to debate this issue, but to provide things
:10:11. > :10:14.which provide education about who we really are. In 2014, when Romany
:10:15. > :10:17.citizens from Bulgaria and Romania are finally given chances to flee
:10:18. > :10:23.the medieval situation that they live in, more of to western Europe
:10:24. > :10:27.as a whole. The situation there is grinding poverty, people living in
:10:28. > :10:31.hovels that you would not imagine existed in the EU. I don't want to
:10:32. > :10:35.create some kind of immigration scare, but if we don't deal with
:10:36. > :10:40.this issue between now and then, the kind of hate. We are hearing from
:10:41. > :10:43.David and Kelvin is just going to be spread. You will see more stuff like
:10:44. > :10:45.as happened in Greece and in to western Europe as a whole. The
:10:46. > :10:48.situation there is grinding poverty, people living in hovels that you
:10:49. > :10:51.would not imagine existed in the EU. I don't want to create some kind of
:10:52. > :10:54.immigration scare, but if we don't deal with this issue between now and
:10:55. > :10:56.then, the kind of hate. We are hearing from David and Kelvin is
:10:57. > :10:59.just going to be spread. You will see more stuff like as happened in
:11:00. > :11:02.Greece and in Ireland. Stay with us, we want to hear more from you.
:11:03. > :11:05.Kelvin and David, you were both named stay with us, we want to hear
:11:06. > :11:07.more from you. Kelvin and David, you were both named getting onto land
:11:08. > :11:14.that they don't own. Don't try and confuse it, just get things My point
:11:15. > :11:16.was I don't know any Roma gypsies, and talking about the travelling
:11:17. > :11:21.community and then getting onto land that they don't own. Don't try and
:11:22. > :11:25.confuse it, just get things the little Maria girl was clearly not
:11:26. > :11:38.the daughter of the Roma gypsies she belonged to. Because she is blonde?
:11:39. > :11:43.No. From no less an authority than the BBC, we do read about the fact
:11:44. > :11:47.that in the Balkans there are criminal gangs involved in human
:11:48. > :11:51.trafficking, and those gangs are linked to and use the Romas to
:11:52. > :11:57.advance that most appalling of crimes. We shouldn't deny that.
:11:58. > :12:07.Those who seek to deny it... Don't interrupt again. You let me have my
:12:08. > :12:11.say and you have your say. By denying the simple truth that the
:12:12. > :12:14.BBC no less has observed, that there is a link between the criminality
:12:15. > :12:27.and human trafficking and the Roma community, you only fool yourself.
:12:28. > :12:31.That's a fact. This is outrageous prejudice. One thing I do know is
:12:32. > :12:34.that I know a darn sight more than you do about trafficking of
:12:35. > :12:39.children, because this is something I've studies out -- I've studies as
:12:40. > :12:42.an academic and a journalist for a number of years. The communities
:12:43. > :12:52.involved in trafficking are as widespread as every community in the
:12:53. > :12:58.world. The Balkans use the Roma community. I've met Roma communities
:12:59. > :13:03.in the Balkans and the UK. After the Gypsy wedding was broadcast on
:13:04. > :13:10.Channel 4, I spent some days on a traveller site in the UK whose lives
:13:11. > :13:14.were made intolerable by this hate created by this TV programme. Where
:13:15. > :13:21.we were drip fed this insidious load of lies about the community. How are
:13:22. > :13:27.you expected... That they were leaving, cheating, lying, feckless
:13:28. > :13:31.scumbags. They were the words I heard over again. And yet these
:13:32. > :13:35.people are excluded from pretty much the job market, from health, from
:13:36. > :13:45.accessing education. Yet we blame them for opting out of it.
:13:46. > :13:50.What community says they are excluded? This gentleman said that
:13:51. > :13:55.London is a fantastically diverse place and Dagenham is 15 miles from
:13:56. > :14:02.the centre. And yet those people turned themselves almost into a
:14:03. > :14:10.criminal organisation. I want a response to the comment David made,
:14:11. > :14:14.about child trafficking. We do not want to label any community it with
:14:15. > :14:19.the crimes of the minority, but this is something he feels is
:14:20. > :14:23.pertinent. It is nonsense. I spoke to a professor yesterday and he
:14:24. > :14:31.said there has not been a single documented case of the community
:14:32. > :14:35.trafficking children. There is no way that Kelvin MacKenzie or David
:14:36. > :14:41.would come on television and talk about Jewish people being like
:14:42. > :14:45.Fagin, about Italians being Mafia. The fact they can get away with
:14:46. > :14:50.this shows they are in the Middle Ages in the way they react to our
:14:51. > :14:56.community. This informs the media. We have a long way to go before we
:14:57. > :15:02.are treated as equal citizens of Europe. There are 12 million. We
:15:03. > :15:09.are increasingly educated, some of us are increasingly blonde! We need
:15:10. > :15:15.to be given the opportunity. There is a Gypsy not in the debate, he is
:15:16. > :15:20.outside the room. Is it fair to say that as part of the Romany culture,
:15:21. > :15:26.you are almost living below the radar and that informs the
:15:27. > :15:33.prejudice? I would not put it in that way. We do not live below the
:15:34. > :15:39.radar, we are depicted all over the place. What we are is executed from
:15:40. > :15:47.the editorial process where we can talk about what we are. In real
:15:48. > :15:53.life, you tend to exist outside the rest of the crew unity. There is a
:15:54. > :15:59.perception the Romany community does not want to engage with the
:16:00. > :16:03.rest of the community. I was just watching the Andrew Marr show.
:16:04. > :16:12.Hollywood is proud of his Romany ancestry. -- Ronnie Wood. Charlie
:16:13. > :16:20.Chaplin said that is where he came from. He was born in a Gypsy
:16:21. > :16:25.caravan in Birmingham. The perception is we live outside and
:16:26. > :16:29.do not want to engage, but big parts of the European cultural
:16:30. > :16:39.history have had Romany people at the heart of it. I would like to
:16:40. > :16:46.talk to a resident of Dale Farm. We had spoken about the Troubles that
:16:47. > :16:53.region had. Can you explain a little bit about how your life was
:16:54. > :17:00.affected by their travelling community who were at Dale Farm? I
:17:01. > :17:05.am a resident. My property back on to Dale Farm. It started off with
:17:06. > :17:20.eight Irish traveller families coming to the site, and it ended up
:17:21. > :17:29.with 86 families. In that situation, how did it make you feel about that
:17:30. > :17:33.community? One law for one and another for another. We go through
:17:34. > :17:38.the courts and the law, I operate within the law myself, and
:17:39. > :17:44.eventually, with the council, we had them evicted from the site.
:17:45. > :17:55.When you hear about that experience, do you have sympathy for other
:17:56. > :17:59.reasons for this? I am not sure what he means about one law for one
:18:00. > :18:08.and another for another, because they were evicted. It took them
:18:09. > :18:14.years. I know of lots of middle- class, privileged, graduates, who
:18:15. > :18:22.squat nice properties in north London. Get them out. In it was my
:18:23. > :18:26.home, and my land, and if I could not be generous enough to give that
:18:27. > :18:31.space to people who desperately need it, if they did, to dwell
:18:32. > :18:40.there, I would say get them out. I know many privileged people who
:18:41. > :18:50.squat. A often prejudice his best informed by experience. Experience
:18:51. > :18:54.he talks about is not uncommon. The occupation of the site cost the
:18:55. > :19:00.ratepayers ?8 million. That is a high price to pay for those who
:19:01. > :19:06.sought to illegally occupied private property. And we cannot
:19:07. > :19:11.stick our heads in the sand and pretend all is well when there is a
:19:12. > :19:20.problem within a section of this community. It is very brave of this
:19:21. > :19:23.gentleman to take on such a huge number of people and fight their
:19:24. > :19:30.way through the courts. It took years. I am surprised it is only ?8
:19:31. > :19:37.million. You had police surrounding them, security people. Why do they
:19:38. > :19:46.not simply obey the law of the land? Rather than feel they have to
:19:47. > :19:51.turn themselves into "victims". On the Channel 4 programme, I enjoyed
:19:52. > :19:58.it. If you view it as entertainment it is fantastic. Every so often,
:19:59. > :20:04.the male members of the families had pixilated faces. They said they
:20:05. > :20:08.did not want their privacy invaded! That made me laugh. There are other
:20:09. > :20:12.ways you could view whether somebody wanted to see their face
:20:13. > :20:19.on television or not. I salute this gentleman and also the Roma
:20:20. > :20:26.spokesman. I do not think we are hostile to whoever the Roma
:20:27. > :20:31.community are. I just want to hear from you before we finished talking
:20:32. > :20:36.about this. What is the message you would want to give? Having heard
:20:37. > :20:44.the level of feeling that these topics ignite. You need to call
:20:45. > :20:50.people buy the right name. The situation at Dale Farm were Irish
:20:51. > :20:57.travellers, not the Roma community. What we need to get out of this,
:20:58. > :21:01.the learning, is to do more about the Romany community that is
:21:02. > :21:06.balanced, not based on entertainment, but based on the
:21:07. > :21:10.history of genocide, slavery, the torture of Romany people and maybe
:21:11. > :21:19.one day we will be seen as equal citizens in society.
:21:20. > :21:23.The vote is open. And the question is whether Roma people are unfairly
:21:24. > :21:46.stigmatised. A new boss for the NHS in England
:21:47. > :21:50.has been appointed and he will have a lot on his plate. A review by the
:21:51. > :21:55.Care Quality Commission revealed more than a quarter of trusts in
:21:56. > :22:00.England are at risk of providing poor care. A report suggests so-
:22:01. > :22:06.called health tourists who come to the UK with the intention of using
:22:07. > :22:09.the NHS for free are costing between ?70 million and ?300
:22:10. > :22:15.million a year. The new chief executive is Simon
:22:16. > :22:21.Stevens. He currently is at a private US health firm. NHS England
:22:22. > :22:26.believes his experience in international health care will be
:22:27. > :22:31.of benefit. We want the best in the world and I think we have the best
:22:32. > :22:35.in the world, who has experience of the public health system and of the
:22:36. > :22:42.best of American health care. The NHS has to be open to ideas.
:22:43. > :22:46.Nations are facing a crisis in the provision of health care and the
:22:47. > :22:51.American experience is valuable. Despite the crisis in affordability,
:22:52. > :22:55.he believes that the NHS is something to be proud about. In it
:22:56. > :23:02.is the envy of the world in a critical respect because it
:23:03. > :23:05.provides care free of charge. Funding is its biggest concern. The
:23:06. > :23:10.Health Secretary has called for foreign nationals to be charged
:23:11. > :23:15.more to use it, which could earn ?500 million. If we are better at
:23:16. > :23:20.collecting that money we could have 4000 more doctors, 8000 more nurses
:23:21. > :23:26.and make a real difference in relieving pressure on the front
:23:27. > :23:32.line. With the NHS facing financial hardship, it is it time that not
:23:33. > :23:37.just foreigners, but everybody, pays the treatment we are currently
:23:38. > :23:43.given for free. The Roger Daltrey has added his voice. He said a
:23:44. > :23:47.totally free NHS means that we are complacent when it comes to looking
:23:48. > :23:58.after our own health. What do you think? We are also joined by Anne
:23:59. > :24:03.Atkins, a Christian commentator and writer. Surely we have to start
:24:04. > :24:09.from the premise that a free NHS is something we can be proud of. It is
:24:10. > :24:14.not free, it is paid out of taxation. If you looked at what you
:24:15. > :24:22.would earn without the NHS and without, it would probably be 9%,
:24:23. > :24:25.10%. We employ more people than anywhere else in the world, with
:24:26. > :24:39.the exception of the Chinese army, to supply this rather good... And
:24:40. > :24:44.Walmart! I spoke to my GP who was complaining that when he goes to
:24:45. > :24:47.business meetings, and he was complaining he was not the business
:24:48. > :24:52.man, going to meetings he was told we did not have money for this and
:24:53. > :24:59.that and the other. It did not surprise me. The local practice I
:25:00. > :25:05.go to was busy with everybody coughing and throwing up, it was
:25:06. > :25:14.like Waterloo station. I say the following. That if you are in
:25:15. > :25:19.education, -- if you are over 65, you have to start paying. In the
:25:20. > :25:26.late seventies I was in Sweden, which was like a communist country.
:25:27. > :25:32.I go to the local GP and have to pay 20 kroner. I say people should
:25:33. > :25:39.pay ?20 to go and it would have two effects. It would stop the idle
:25:40. > :25:44.going to get sick notes. Secondly, just stopped going to the betting
:25:45. > :25:49.shop, the pub, the rest of it, they do not mind going to buy food and
:25:50. > :25:54.the rest of it, but they are not prepared to take a ?20 note out of
:25:55. > :26:00.their pocket. That has to stop. It would stop the GP surgery being
:26:01. > :26:05.busy with people who do not need it. What they need is to say they have
:26:06. > :26:12.a cold, either I go to bed, or I go to work, and I will fight it off.
:26:13. > :26:17.We have not got enough money for everybody in the world, every time
:26:18. > :26:23.they have a cold, or whether they are depressed, it is a Monday, I
:26:24. > :26:30.will go down to the doctor. That is outrageous. You would have people
:26:31. > :26:37.buy food or go to the GP. Go to the restaurant, to the pub and betting
:26:38. > :26:41.shop, go to the movies... When you think about it, there is
:26:42. > :26:45.complacency among some people. I have a fear of going to the doctor
:26:46. > :26:53.because I do not want the doctor to tell me I am really ill. People who
:26:54. > :26:58.are concerned about their health, they would not go. It is like
:26:59. > :27:05.dentistry. The only people these days you have good teeth are the
:27:06. > :27:13.rich. We have free dentistry for pregnant women, children, the old.
:27:14. > :27:17.Anybody on benefits. People on benefits have the best teeth!
:27:18. > :27:24.Deterring people from going to the GP, to look at something that could
:27:25. > :27:28.become a serious health concern, we would end up with a public health
:27:29. > :27:34.crisis. Most people do not go with a cold, they actually avoid it. It
:27:35. > :27:40.comes down to the extraordinary demands on the NHS and then not
:27:41. > :27:47.been enough money, is there a case for a charge? I love my NHS. The
:27:48. > :27:52.first time I had to pay for the dentist, I was outraged, but one
:27:53. > :27:58.gets used to wit. There is free dentistry for those who cannot
:27:59. > :28:04.afford it. -- used to it. The thing we are not discussing is how the
:28:05. > :28:13.NHS does not pay for things that I think we need that would save money.
:28:14. > :28:19.Almost all surgeries, you can get counselling. What you cannot get
:28:20. > :28:24.his marriage counselling. For every ?1 we spent helping couples stay
:28:25. > :28:29.together, we spent thousands of pounds as a taxpayer on the fall-
:28:30. > :28:33.out from broken relationships. Why do we not offer marriage
:28:34. > :28:40.counselling paid for by the taxpayer? Regardless of the
:28:41. > :28:46.emotional and psychological richness, we would save so much
:28:47. > :28:50.money. The same is true of obesity. People say the poor are fact.
:28:51. > :28:57.Generally speaking, there is truth in that. -- overweight. That is not
:28:58. > :29:03.because bad food is cheaper. It is more expensive. We had a friend
:29:04. > :29:07.staying because he had to leave his council flat because he was being
:29:08. > :29:15.attacked, he was 20. Until he knew us, he had no idea how to cook.
:29:16. > :29:18.Everything he had to eat he bought from the corner shop, ?5 on a
:29:19. > :29:35.sandwich. At a slightly tangential issue to
:29:36. > :29:41.what we are talking about, but we are being a bit head in the sand
:29:42. > :29:44.here. If you pay for something it has a value. At the moment you do it
:29:45. > :29:52.through taxation. You think, is my money going on the war, is giving me
:29:53. > :29:56.free roads, whatever? Until people understand that things do cost
:29:57. > :30:01.money, they are prepared to pay for everything else... If you look in a
:30:02. > :30:04.council estate, you can recognise the difference between those that
:30:05. > :30:08.have bought the house and those that haven't all stop people care about
:30:09. > :30:18.it more when you have financial ownership. That this generalisation.
:30:19. > :30:22.I object to council tenants being subsidised when they have a sky dish
:30:23. > :30:31.on the side costing ?60 to ?80 a month. Why do people talk about
:30:32. > :30:35.having a sky dish? Because it is 80 quid a month and I'm subsidising
:30:36. > :30:42.them above my taxation. It isn't. Let's get back to health. People do
:30:43. > :30:48.pay for the National Health Service. If we impose some kind of fee upon
:30:49. > :30:52.going to the doctors, then what you are not going to do is find the
:30:53. > :30:58.conditions and the illnesses that will become a concern, and that will
:30:59. > :31:01.end up costing us days for being off sick with work. Obviously we need to
:31:02. > :31:07.make sure that people aren't going to their GPs because they fancy the
:31:08. > :31:13.morning out. That's a very rare scenario. Wendy Savage is president
:31:14. > :31:20.of an organisation called, keep our NHS public. We are hearing this
:31:21. > :31:24.discussion about whether or not they might be some things you should pay
:31:25. > :31:28.for as somebody using the NHS. Do you think there is a way of using
:31:29. > :31:33.funds more efficiently? I think there is a way, getting the staff
:31:34. > :31:37.who work in the NHS to actually point out to the managers how money
:31:38. > :31:40.could be saved. I don't think we should start charging people because
:31:41. > :31:47.that will affect those who need the care most. In France, for example,
:31:48. > :31:51.you have to go and pay when you go to the GP and then it is
:31:52. > :31:55.reimbursed. If you haven't got the money to go, then you won't go. Our
:31:56. > :32:00.system is perfectly affordable, we are a rich country and we do pay for
:32:01. > :32:04.it through our taxes. I think this idea that people abuse the NHS
:32:05. > :32:10.because they get it for free is complete nonsense. But do you not
:32:11. > :32:14.accept there is a huge increase in the demands on the NHS building up
:32:15. > :32:20.as our population gets increasingly old? This has been blown up out of
:32:21. > :32:23.all proportion by those who don't believe in a national health service
:32:24. > :32:32.in the first place. Our population is getting older, but it's not a
:32:33. > :32:37.meteoric rise, it's just a steady rise. Actually, older people, like
:32:38. > :32:44.myself, are much healthier than I would have been 50 years ago. I
:32:45. > :32:48.think that this is all part of the neoliberal agenda to get rid of the
:32:49. > :32:52.welfare state, because they don't think that ordinary people deserve
:32:53. > :32:57.it. I do think that as a civilised country, we should be able to
:32:58. > :33:01.provide health care our population. Thank you very much for your
:33:02. > :33:06.contribution. I'd like to hear from somebody else in the health service,
:33:07. > :33:13.the oncologist, a professor of cancer medicine. We all agree the
:33:14. > :33:16.NHS is there to support the vulnerable. Where do you stand on
:33:17. > :33:22.how best we should be spending the money, because the demands seem to
:33:23. > :33:26.be untenable? We are all paying about ?1600 a year for our health
:33:27. > :33:32.insurance. Efficiency savings have been done, there's nothing more you
:33:33. > :33:35.can get, 20% reduction, we just can't get it from efficiency
:33:36. > :33:39.savings. The only way is even more tax or paying as you go for certain
:33:40. > :33:43.services. I think paying as you go for certain services is something
:33:44. > :33:46.politicians won't talk about, it doesn't win votes. But to me, it's
:33:47. > :33:52.the only way to go for my generation. I'm in my 60s, I will be
:33:53. > :34:02.retiring in the next few years. Our generation is going to consume
:34:03. > :34:05.health care like nobody 's business. We are going to have to do something
:34:06. > :34:08.to dampen demand, paying is the only way. What would you expect people to
:34:09. > :34:11.pay for? Pay for visit to a GP for certain services that sort of
:34:12. > :34:15.outside the essentials. The NHS will always be there to deal with the
:34:16. > :34:18.essential care, and we've got to have safety nets. We're not going to
:34:19. > :34:22.punish people for using health care. We've got to make sure kids with
:34:23. > :34:26.meningitis gets seen immediately. There are all sorts of ways of
:34:27. > :34:29.developing this scheme, as they have in Europe. All Western European
:34:30. > :34:33.countries have some sort of copayment structure. I know where
:34:34. > :34:58.Wendy is coming from, it's just impractical to think that it's a
:34:59. > :35:00.religion, that we can get charitable money into it. We've got to make it
:35:01. > :35:03.a business, we've got to make sure it works. The money comes in, the
:35:04. > :35:06.money goes out, we've got to balance the books. We are hearing from
:35:07. > :35:08.inside the NHS that the balance of the books has to work. Of course,
:35:09. > :35:11.and I'm sure that better management could be put in place to save a
:35:12. > :35:13.fortune, including some of the salaries at the high-end of
:35:14. > :35:16.managerial positions. But the doctor has said that has all been done. But
:35:17. > :35:18.whether that's the case across the board is another matter. I'm
:35:19. > :35:20.concerned about creating a stigmatised underclass of people who
:35:21. > :35:23.won't be able to attend the GP surgery, who will be told it is not
:35:24. > :35:26.for them, and therefore our public health will suffer and will become a
:35:27. > :35:28.crisis. But what you are not really addressing, emotionally I am with
:35:29. > :35:31.you but we have to face reality. The NHS is just too expensive. You are
:35:32. > :35:34.not really addressing the fact that we have started paying for certain
:35:35. > :35:38.things and it is working. We pay for prescriptions now, unless you are on
:35:39. > :35:43.benefits, pregnant or whatever it is. We pay for dentistry, we've got
:35:44. > :35:46.used to this. It does work. I really don't think there will be an
:35:47. > :35:52.underclass that doesn't get health care. Let me give you an example.
:35:53. > :35:56.When our son was 12 he was invited out on a skiing holiday with a
:35:57. > :35:59.friend. We forgot, this was in Switzerland, we forgot to take out
:36:00. > :36:02.health insurance because our daughter was ill at the time and I
:36:03. > :36:07.just forgot. The inevitable happened, he had an accident and it
:36:08. > :36:11.was very expensive and took several years to pay off. But there was no
:36:12. > :36:15.question that he wouldn't get care. There was no question that he had to
:36:16. > :36:18.prove that he could pay before he was airlifted off on a helicopter,
:36:19. > :36:23.he was given the best care in the world. We had to spend several years
:36:24. > :36:28.paying for it but he got it. There was no question, can your parents
:36:29. > :36:33.afford this? A brief word from Wendy Savage. We've heard from our
:36:34. > :36:40.panellists saying that something just has to give. Could you not give
:36:41. > :36:46.a little yourself? Look, we already paid for the NHS through our taxes.
:36:47. > :36:51.It is an efficient system and it has done very well over the years with a
:36:52. > :36:55.very small proportion of our gross domestic product. We can afford to
:36:56. > :37:01.have it. Introducing charges is not a good idea. Dentistry is now out of
:37:02. > :37:05.the reach of anybody who is poor. The idea that we've been softened up
:37:06. > :37:12.to pay for things which we all believed should be free... Health
:37:13. > :37:16.care is not a business. It is a service. We don't want all these
:37:17. > :37:20.private companies coming in, cashing in on our health service, getting
:37:21. > :37:29.hold of taxpayers' money to increase their profits. Let's have a quick
:37:30. > :37:33.look to see what you at home have been saying. Comment from Diane
:37:34. > :37:37.saying, people who smoke and those who are overweight should pay for
:37:38. > :37:41.their NHS treatment. That is the Roger Daltrey feeling, we should be
:37:42. > :37:46.taking responsibility for our own health. Tara says, we already pay
:37:47. > :37:51.for the NHS, this idea that it is free is silly. Tom says the NHS
:37:52. > :37:54.means just that, the national health service, it is owned and paid for by
:37:55. > :37:57.national insurance Contributions Bill. That is quite comforting the
:37:58. > :38:05.point, but we can discuss that another time. Keep voting in our
:38:06. > :38:16.text vote. Ah Roma people unfairly stigmatised?
:38:17. > :38:28.You can only vote once and you have about five minutes or so before the
:38:29. > :38:32.vote closes. Is it possible to have a church without religion? The
:38:33. > :38:36.Sunday Assembly believes it is. The atheist organisation stages
:38:37. > :38:39.gatherings, but it says extract the good things about religion without
:38:40. > :38:44.making God part of the package. We went to one of their get-togethers
:38:45. > :38:46.and we also discovered a Church of England vicar who says he doesn't
:38:47. > :38:53.believe in the existence of God either. They come together regularly
:38:54. > :38:59.and their numbers are growing. # Don't stop me now, I'm having a
:39:00. > :39:12.good time... The Sunday Assembly was started ten
:39:13. > :39:18.months ago. They claim to have over eight conjugations worldwide. Their
:39:19. > :39:21.main branch is in London. We are a godless congregation that celebrates
:39:22. > :39:29.life. We are therefore people who want to live better, help often and
:39:30. > :39:33.more. I felt really excluded because I don't believe in God at church, so
:39:34. > :39:37.that was no good. I've always been thinking about new ways in which
:39:38. > :39:41.people can have spirituality and be good and do good things, that don't
:39:42. > :39:45.necessarily involved in something that was existing 2000 years ago.
:39:46. > :39:49.The idea of the assembly is to take what it calls the best parts of
:39:50. > :39:54.church and to use those to celebrate life, from an atheist and secular
:39:55. > :39:57.perspective. We don't have heaven or hell to get people in the door.
:39:58. > :40:01.We've got to make sure they are there because they want to be. We
:40:02. > :40:07.like to think of it as entertaining but not just entertainment. While
:40:08. > :40:11.many people may find the idea of a godless church strange, one Anglican
:40:12. > :40:17.vicar has been preaching for over 40 years despite never believing in
:40:18. > :40:24.God. I don't think that a god exists. I believe in God like I
:40:25. > :40:29.believe in happiness or Chorley or goodwill or hope for something like
:40:30. > :40:33.that. There is no need to suppose there is a supernatural being. Even
:40:34. > :40:38.without God, the reverend David Paterson says they are still many
:40:39. > :40:41.benefits to being a Christian. Religions tend to get bogged down,
:40:42. > :40:45.especially Christianity, with thinking they are all about dogmas
:40:46. > :40:50.and what you believe. Most of the time isn't about that at all. It's
:40:51. > :40:56.about community and love and social work and it is about ritual,
:40:57. > :41:01.thinking how wonderful the world is. The Sunday Assembly is an idea
:41:02. > :41:04.that the reverend Paterson has embraced. He's involved in setting
:41:05. > :41:08.up an Oxford branch and believes it's key to bringing different
:41:09. > :41:16.beliefs together. Atheism and religion don't have to be enemies. A
:41:17. > :41:20.church without God. That same organisation are planning a service
:41:21. > :41:25.of remembrance next Sunday in order to, as they say, provide an
:41:26. > :41:28.alternative. This is a bit like deciding to have a wonderful meal
:41:29. > :41:33.because of all the benefits of taste and the flavour and how it makes you
:41:34. > :41:38.feel, then vomiting it all up and not getting the nutrition. Of course
:41:39. > :41:42.we know that they are incidental benefits to faith, such as meeting
:41:43. > :41:45.with people and getting out in the fresh air. But that isn't actually
:41:46. > :41:49.what it is about. I have no objection to these people, it's a
:41:50. > :41:54.lovely idea, but Christianity is not about the incidental benefits, and
:41:55. > :41:58.they are considerable, of community, belonging and so on. Christianity is
:41:59. > :42:03.about the essential benefit of eternal life. Sadly, this is only
:42:04. > :42:06.getting the fringe benefits and not the core benefits. What is
:42:07. > :42:15.fascinating about this is that Jesus hated religion. He hated the
:42:16. > :42:20.observance of what man can do, humanity can do to please God or put
:42:21. > :42:23.the structures in place, which was why he was so scathing about the
:42:24. > :42:27.really good people of his day, the Pharisees. They were the good
:42:28. > :42:31.people, the religious people, the people who watch hot on the servants
:42:32. > :42:36.rather than the belief, rather than the essence of it. An atheist vicar,
:42:37. > :42:42.he is not alone, I've known a number of them. I believe there is an
:42:43. > :42:45.organisation, it's not a particularly Christian
:42:46. > :42:51.organisation, for ordained people in his position. I'd love to know what
:42:52. > :42:56.Julia and Kelvin think about this. I definitely don't want eternal like
:42:57. > :43:03.if the coalition Government is going to stay in! As a secular wrist, and
:43:04. > :43:07.I think secularism is just a start, I'm really interested in the way
:43:08. > :43:11.things are shifting, so that people are latching onto political beliefs
:43:12. > :43:15.rather than a faith -based beliefs. I think there's room for all, but I
:43:16. > :43:19.firmly believe that faith should be religious, conviction should be a
:43:20. > :43:23.private matter and not in any way linked to the state. Yes, it's an
:43:24. > :43:30.interesting shift and I'm sure one that will grow.
:43:31. > :43:38.Kelvin MacKenzie, we do not have time to hear from you on this. You
:43:39. > :43:44.have been voting on the question of whether Roma people are unfairly
:43:45. > :43:52.stigmatised. We will bring you the result at the end of the show. The
:43:53. > :43:56.voting is now closed. The wife of the former Prime
:43:57. > :44:01.Minister Tony Blair said that women who take a break from work to have
:44:02. > :44:05.children need more help to return to work and suggests apprentice
:44:06. > :44:10.style training to bring women back to the workplace. In the same week,
:44:11. > :44:14.a childcare experts said that mothers who look after children
:44:15. > :44:21.full-time suffer unfair discrimination. It is described as
:44:22. > :44:25.motherism. Cherie Blair managed to sustain her career as a barrister
:44:26. > :44:30.as well as bringing up children and fulfilling her role at Number 10.
:44:31. > :44:34.But she admits she did not take any real maternity leave. She says that
:44:35. > :44:39.parents who choose to stay at home when children are young should not
:44:40. > :44:48.feel charged, disadvantaged by the decision. This woman who works with
:44:49. > :44:53.the group called Mothers At Home Matter said that she feels that
:44:54. > :45:00.people like her are judged unfairly. They is a stigma. George Osborne
:45:01. > :45:05.said it was a lifestyle choice. That we are choosing to stay at
:45:06. > :45:12.home. But many people are struggling to make that choice.
:45:13. > :45:16.Childcare expert Dr Aric Sigman also joined the debate and said
:45:17. > :45:21.that stay-at-home mothers suffer from derogatory attitudes and if
:45:22. > :45:26.they were applied to a minority group there would be a public
:45:27. > :45:35.outcry. I just hope that mothers and fathers doing this for their
:45:36. > :45:40.children candy in some self-esteem from that. We will be back in the
:45:41. > :45:44.workplace, but it is understanding there is a time for everything in
:45:45. > :45:50.life and it is important to be there for our children. How do you
:45:51. > :45:58.feel about the role of stay at home others? We would like to hear from
:45:59. > :46:07.you. Is raising children undervalued? There are obstacles in
:46:08. > :46:11.place for parents to raise children and we obsessively focused on
:46:12. > :46:15.mothers. This was a woman of some privilege, sitting in her nice
:46:16. > :46:20.kitchen, and good for her. But when we look at single mothers, working
:46:21. > :46:26.class, living in council houses, maybe, that we often see on
:46:27. > :46:31.programmes that are there for our entertainment, they are seen as
:46:32. > :46:35.lazy and irresponsible. Those sorts of stay-at-home mothers are often
:46:36. > :46:40.completely dismissed. Whereas women who want to go back to the Fifties
:46:41. > :46:45.and bake, how women can afford this, I do not know, they are seen as
:46:46. > :46:50.benefiting society. I think it is bad for children, giving them a bad
:46:51. > :46:54.impression of the role of women in the world if they are brought up by
:46:55. > :47:00.this baking woman of the 1950s. It is bad for many women who really do
:47:01. > :47:04.need to be helped back into the workplace. It is something we have
:47:05. > :47:09.seen rising in the past decade. Women want to work. George Osborne
:47:10. > :47:18.called it a lifestyle choice, is it? Increasingly, of course, you do
:47:19. > :47:22.not have the luxury of having one income coming into a house. If you
:47:23. > :47:29.live in London and the south, the idea of one income sustaining their
:47:30. > :47:34.house-buying is preposterous. In my lifetime and I have a successful
:47:35. > :47:38.mother, she went out to work. She had three children and went out to
:47:39. > :47:44.work back in the Fifties and Sixties. That was considered
:47:45. > :47:51.disgraceful, leaving the children. Now, 2013, now they are saying, you
:47:52. > :47:59.can afford to stay at home, you must either be wealthy or idle. The
:48:00. > :48:04.reality of it is that actually, the truth about the matter is that
:48:05. > :48:09.women, should, if they can, go out to work. It is good for the family
:48:10. > :48:14.income and good for them. It gives them a role model. Even if it is
:48:15. > :48:19.part time, when the father comes in and then they go out, whatever it
:48:20. > :48:26.is, they should do it. It is a role model for the children. And you
:48:27. > :48:31.could say... That argument does not sustain. I was doing well up to
:48:32. > :48:37.that. The reality is that they should go out and work. I cannot
:48:38. > :48:45.believe how patronising we are being. Who are you to say whether
:48:46. > :48:51.women should go out to work? It is not contributing to society, you
:48:52. > :48:56.say, I am shocked by both of you. Another thing that is fascinating
:48:57. > :49:06.is this is called motherism. What about the fathers staying at home?
:49:07. > :49:16.Which are about 2%. I find the historic sweep fascinating. If you
:49:17. > :49:22.go back to the Bible, throughout the scriptures there is an
:49:23. > :49:27.understanding about three essential roles, earning a living, running a
:49:28. > :49:31.home, bringing up children. In the Old Testament at New Testament, it
:49:32. > :49:38.is the egalitarian, particularly about bringing up children. We all
:49:39. > :49:42.have responsibility for this. When you get the Industrial Revolution,
:49:43. > :49:47.work moves away from the home and you have to divide the roles.
:49:48. > :49:53.Somebody has to go out to work. Somebody else has to bring up
:49:54. > :49:58.children. If you are poor, maybe that is the grandparents, but in
:49:59. > :50:07.the 19 sentry, men went out to work and women stayed at home. -- 19th
:50:08. > :50:11.century. Why should any couple not spit that how they like? What I
:50:12. > :50:15.find obnoxious about the current government and the way it does
:50:16. > :50:19.things, be saw it with child benefit, taking it away from
:50:20. > :50:24.couples where one goes out to work and the other stays at home, losing
:50:25. > :50:31.it at half the rate that your income families do. It is appalling
:50:32. > :50:36.you cannot transfer tax credit to your code parent. I hate to
:50:37. > :50:45.interrupt but we have interesting contributors standing by. One of
:50:46. > :50:49.them is a founding director of Mum and Career. We are saying that
:50:50. > :50:54.stay-at-home mothers are being stigmatised. Possibly look down on
:50:55. > :51:01.by career women and the rest of society, do you agree? I speak with
:51:02. > :51:06.hundreds of career women and I never get anything disrespectful
:51:07. > :51:10.about stay at home others. Career women talk about how they would
:51:11. > :51:15.sometimes like to be a stay-at-home mother, because they are juggling,
:51:16. > :51:18.if they are guilty, you have the constant lack of time and they
:51:19. > :51:27.dream of giving it up and being there for their children more. They
:51:28. > :51:34.realise they cannot. It is a personal choice. It is not an easy
:51:35. > :51:38.choice. It would be easier if parents could do both, mothers and
:51:39. > :51:43.fathers could be more there for their children. There would be more
:51:44. > :51:48.flexibility with work and more parents could have more time at
:51:49. > :51:55.home. You said it was not an easy choice. We have Stacey's standing
:51:56. > :52:01.by, he decided to stay at home. Why did you choose to be a stay-at-home
:52:02. > :52:06.mother? It is really important to be there, disciplining and teaching
:52:07. > :52:12.my children the morals and values that my family has. And seeing what
:52:13. > :52:17.they do first, kissing them better when they fall over. I have
:52:18. > :52:24.sacrificed a lot to do that. Do you think that people look down on you?
:52:25. > :52:35.I feel very proud... I he's still there? -- are you? Working mothers
:52:36. > :52:42.often feel envious, they feel I am lucky, but we have sacrificed a lot,
:52:43. > :52:47.we do not have a large house, we buy things second-hand to ensure I
:52:48. > :52:53.can be there for my children. I think it is about making the choice,
:52:54. > :52:58.not luck. Your sound and vision were out of sync but we got your
:52:59. > :53:05.point. It comes down to Joyce, as a feminist, is that what you fight
:53:06. > :53:10.for? -- down to choice. The pressure is on to contribute to
:53:11. > :53:13.society, but those who are stigmatised in the debate are those
:53:14. > :53:20.of us who choose not to have children. We are stigmatise not
:53:21. > :53:25.even in terms of whether we are lesbian, gay, a civil partnership,
:53:26. > :53:33.but whether we go down the route of reproducing. Children's homes are
:53:34. > :53:37.full of unwanted children, but we focus on reproduction. We should
:53:38. > :53:41.make it easier for parents to go back to work and give better
:53:42. > :53:45.incentives. David Cameron would not drive women back to work if he did
:53:46. > :53:49.not want to pay this ridiculous financial incentive for people who
:53:50. > :53:54.get married. How are you stigmatised if you do not have
:53:55. > :53:59.children? If people find out I have a female partner, the conversation
:54:00. > :54:04.goes on to whether I have children. The conversation goes dead. They
:54:05. > :54:09.look at me with sympathy and pity, or they look at me with anger as if
:54:10. > :54:14.I am selfish. But having your own child is incredibly selfish, it
:54:15. > :54:19.only benefits you. That is not true. But that should be a legitimate
:54:20. > :54:30.choice. I am sad to hear you say you feel you are look down on. We
:54:31. > :54:34.can hear from Kelvin MacKenzie. I suspect a huge proportion of women
:54:35. > :54:38.would want to spend more time at home with their children, as would
:54:39. > :54:44.the fathers. An argument that does not emerge, my experience, I was an
:54:45. > :54:53.average father. Fortunately, the children had a good mother. I was
:54:54. > :54:58.always at work. What I notice with my children, they play a much
:54:59. > :55:05.larger role, my sons. They want to play a larger role. Also, the women
:55:06. > :55:12.of today are more gutsy than before. They would not allow them to say, I
:55:13. > :55:17.am all right, I am going to the golf club, drinking with my mates,
:55:18. > :55:21.that has changed. The real pressure is the financial pressure in all
:55:22. > :55:29.households. In that comes the problem. That lady said she lived
:55:30. > :55:34.in a smaller house, those kinds of things. People can make those
:55:35. > :55:39.sacrifices, but most people I know would rather live in a bigger house
:55:40. > :55:43.with a nicer car, and in that they go to work and think they are
:55:44. > :55:57.satisfied in work, but as you say, they have the guilt. You cannot
:55:58. > :56:07.live off one income. We have to end. At least a woman had the last word.
:56:08. > :56:13.It will not be the only time! We asked if Roma people are unfairly
:56:14. > :56:20.stigmatised. 22% to voted said they are, and 78% said no, they are not.
:56:21. > :56:26.We can look at the comments from home. Jane said they are
:56:27. > :56:30.stigmatised and the media should not malign groups outside of the
:56:31. > :56:34.mainstream. Andy said they think they are above the law. Peter said
:56:35. > :56:39.some communities do not do themselves any favours, and ghetto
:56:40. > :56:43.themselves in communes. Margaret asks if they will take away
:56:44. > :56:48.children who do not look like their mother, this is discrimination. An
:56:49. > :56:57.even split in the Commons, but sent it sent and 22%. I am really
:56:58. > :57:03.depressed by that finding. This is a terrible discrimination, to take
:57:04. > :57:07.a child away. As was said, you would not do that, taking a white
:57:08. > :57:14.child away from black parents and doing a DNA test. That is shocking.
:57:15. > :57:21.The question that did not arise, which is fascinating, will Maria be
:57:22. > :57:25.better off now that she has been taken away? She had not been
:57:26. > :57:30.trafficked, she had not been abandoned. She had not been
:57:31. > :57:35.kidnapped. She was within her own community. What are the voting
:57:36. > :57:47.shows, I bet if Nigel Farage is watching this, he is going, roll-on
:57:48. > :57:55.the May elections. It is prejudice. People's lives are affected
:57:56. > :58:02.adversely and it is time for proper education about the issue. Thanks
:58:03. > :58:09.for your contributions. To everybody who has taken part. Do
:58:10. > :58:14.not get in touch with us, the lines are closed. But you can continue
:58:15. > :58:18.the conversation online. The links are on the website. Next week there
:58:19. > :58:21.will be another edition of the programme. But for me, and
:58:22. > :58:25.everybody in the studio, goodbye.