:00:00. > :00:08.How do you feel about the police this morning, following the latest
:00:09. > :00:33.on "Plebgate" this morning, following the latest
:00:34. > :00:39.Good morning, I'm Samira Ahmed. Also on today's programme: Today is the
:00:40. > :00:42.Hindu festival of Diwali, and many Hindus will be using the swastika in
:00:43. > :00:43.their celebrations, but can this ancient symbol be reclaimed from the
:00:44. > :00:53.Nazis? For me personally the swastika means
:00:54. > :00:57.hope. And the Pope has suspended a German
:00:58. > :01:00.Church leader dubbed the "bishop of bling" over his alleged lavish
:01:01. > :01:04.spending. We ask, can you be rich and religious? Joining me this week
:01:05. > :01:07.are Lord Lord Blair, the former Commissioner of the Metropolitan
:01:08. > :01:11.Police. Phil Scraton, Professor of Criminology at Queens University in
:01:12. > :01:18.Belfast, and author of Hillsborough: The Truth. And a columnist from The
:01:19. > :01:23.Independent, Owen Jones. We want to know what you think, so if you have
:01:24. > :01:25.a webcam you can join us via Skype, or give your views on Twitter or
:01:26. > :01:41.phone. Who would have thought that a senior
:01:42. > :01:46.politician riding his bike would have cost him his job and sparked
:01:47. > :01:51.off a long drawn-out debate over the severe weather warning at the of the
:01:52. > :01:54.police -- integrity of the place. The Independent Police Complaints
:01:55. > :01:59.Commission has announced an investigation into the so-called
:02:00. > :02:02."Plebgate" affair. The then Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell attempted to
:02:03. > :02:06.cycle through the gates of Downing Street.
:02:07. > :02:10.It was alleged Mr Mitchell called the officers plebs, something which
:02:11. > :02:15.he has always strenuously denied. However, Mr Mitchell accepted he did
:02:16. > :02:19.not treat the police with respect and apologised to the officer
:02:20. > :02:24.concerned. Despite that, he ended up having to resign. The Metropolitan
:02:25. > :02:29.Police say eight people arrested as part of the investigation into the
:02:30. > :02:34.so-called "Plebgate" affair have been rebailed to a date in late
:02:35. > :02:38.November. After the initial incident, Mr Mitchell held a meeting
:02:39. > :02:43.with Police Federation representatives in an attempt to
:02:44. > :02:47.clear the air. He maintains that comments to the press after that
:02:48. > :02:53.meeting misrepresented what's he had said, and he had a secret recording
:02:54. > :03:02.which backed up assertion. I give you my word that I never used those
:03:03. > :03:04.words. Police Federation officers told the Home Affairs Select
:03:05. > :03:09.Committee that their account of the meeting with Mr Mitchell was
:03:10. > :03:12.accurate. They stood by it and had not misrepresented his views. You
:03:13. > :03:18.don't think you've done anything wrong? At the moment no, I'm not
:03:19. > :03:22.convinced that we have done anything wrong. A survey of rank and file
:03:23. > :03:28.police officers said that "Plebgate" had damaged the Police Federation,
:03:29. > :03:34.and suggested that 91% of those questioned believe it is time for
:03:35. > :03:37.the organisation to change. Two of the Police Federation officers who
:03:38. > :03:41.appeared before the Home Affairs Select Committee have been summoned
:03:42. > :03:45.to reappear next week. "Plebgate" isn't the first time the integrity
:03:46. > :03:49.of the police has been questioned. The most damning criticism came last
:03:50. > :03:54.year from the Hillsborough Independent Panel into the disaster
:03:55. > :03:58.in which 96 Liverpool football fans died. It revealed that police had
:03:59. > :04:02.deliberately altered more than 160 witness statements in an attempt to
:04:03. > :04:06.blame Liverpool fans for the fatal crush. That cover-up lasted more
:04:07. > :04:10.than 20 years, so can we now trust the police? Professor Phil Scraton
:04:11. > :04:13.was part of that panel and the primary author of the report into
:04:14. > :04:26.the tragedy. Here is his Sunday Stand.
:04:27. > :04:32.Southall, or grieve, Steen Lawrence, Jean-Paul de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson,
:04:33. > :04:38."Plebgate" - moments in contemporary policing. Momentary Egypt, bad
:04:39. > :04:43.apples, or consequences of a deeper mind-set. Following Stephen
:04:44. > :04:44.Lawrence's brutal murder Lord Macpherson found institutional
:04:45. > :04:49.racism throughout the Metropolitan Police. A decade earlier my research
:04:50. > :04:54.into policing in the city of Liverpool arrived at the same
:04:55. > :04:58.conclusion. A warm spring afternoon in Sheffield, on Hillsborough's
:04:59. > :05:05.terraces 96 men, women and children lost their lives in densely packed
:05:06. > :05:11.pens, like cattle pens. Hundreds injured, are thousands traumatised,
:05:12. > :05:14.the bereaved and survivors expected thorough impartial investigations of
:05:15. > :05:23.the condition text and circumstances. But it didn't happen.
:05:24. > :05:27.I co-authored two in-depth report reviewing a venue and organisation
:05:28. > :05:31.unfit for return, neglect in the duty of case, systemic failures in
:05:32. > :05:36.the investigations and inquests, and widespread review and alteration of
:05:37. > :05:42.police statements. Yet the victims remain vilified by a predominantly
:05:43. > :05:45.hostile media fed by deceitful police officers, opportunist
:05:46. > :05:50.politicians and those eager to deflect responsibility. They
:05:51. > :05:56.infected outcomes and soured public consciousness. Two decades on in
:05:57. > :05:59.Liverpool's an quan Cathedral I delivered the Hillsborough
:06:00. > :06:08.Independent Panel's report to families. 1 3 findings distilled
:06:09. > :06:14.from 2 million documents, disclosed by over 80 agencies. Our analysis
:06:15. > :06:18.revealed evidence corrupted and institutional deficiencies in police
:06:19. > :06:24.and medical investigations. Families vindicated, survivors exonerated.
:06:25. > :06:27.Within minutes came a prime ministerial public apology for the
:06:28. > :06:33.double injustice endured by families and survivors. It triggered
:06:34. > :06:38.unprecedented investigations into 2,000 officers from approximately 30
:06:39. > :06:47.forces, extending to all corporate bodies involved. 96 inquest verdicts
:06:48. > :06:51.were quashed. Disturbingly, current police-led Hillsborough
:06:52. > :06:56.investigations have no informed oversight, nor are they supported by
:06:57. > :07:01.independent research. The Home Affairs Committee recently judged
:07:02. > :07:06.the independent Independent Police Complaints Commission as woefully
:07:07. > :07:11.underewined and hamstrung. Public trust in the police has diminished.
:07:12. > :07:18.Effective independent monitoring now has to be secure if that trust is
:07:19. > :07:22.ever to be recovered. Professor Phil Scraton with his view there. What do
:07:23. > :07:28.you think? Can we now trust the police? Ian Blair? We have to as a
:07:29. > :07:33.society, but it is obvious from Phil's report there that it is very
:07:34. > :07:38.easy to lose. The question for you are our text and online vote this
:07:39. > :07:54.week: Do you trust the police? Text VOTE fold by Yes or No to 81771.
:07:55. > :08:00.Phil, new allegations about "Plebgate", but couldn't one say
:08:01. > :08:04.there are always going to be a few case of wrongdoing, and that if you
:08:05. > :08:07.put them in proportion it is wrong to malign the police force as a
:08:08. > :08:12.whole? I think there are two issues here, Samira. The first issue is
:08:13. > :08:16.individual cases, "Plebgate" is an individual case. It is an instance,
:08:17. > :08:20.it happens in a flash, and then we have all the fallout that comes as a
:08:21. > :08:23.consequence of that and we have to have ways of investigating, that
:08:24. > :08:27.understanding that, getting to the bottom of it. Then you have issues
:08:28. > :08:33.much more systemic, for example as I say in the film, Lord Macpherson's
:08:34. > :08:37.comments on institutionalised racism within the Metropolitan force. This
:08:38. > :08:44.is a much bigger issue, Hillsborough is a much bigger issue. A single
:08:45. > :08:48.issue can be indicative of a much bigger issue. That require as much
:08:49. > :08:51.more careful, most of more sustained inquiry and investigation, overseen
:08:52. > :08:56.by people who are truly independent. That, to me, is the distinction
:08:57. > :09:00.between what we would see the individual, the individual case, the
:09:01. > :09:05.specific issue of bad apples or whatever we want to call it, and on
:09:06. > :09:09.the other hand system that's systemic, something that's
:09:10. > :09:13.underlying within a force. And you think there's a problem, that it is
:09:14. > :09:19.bigger than a few individual cases? Oh, of course. I think that the
:09:20. > :09:22.issue we can see that here in Northern Ireland, in terms of the
:09:23. > :09:27.Historical Enquiries Team, when you put many millions of pounds into an
:09:28. > :09:31.investigation into an inquiry that is supposed to have the faith of
:09:32. > :09:35.people who live in those communities, then we, we are duty
:09:36. > :09:40.bound to ensure independence, thoroughness in and accountability.
:09:41. > :09:43.This is an issue of truth, yes, but also fundamentally, and this is what
:09:44. > :09:47.the families would always tell us in all of these cases, it is an issue
:09:48. > :09:51.of justice. Justice for them doesn't mean a head on the stick. It doesn't
:09:52. > :09:55.mean an individual. It means understanding and getting to the
:09:56. > :09:59.bottom of and exposing the issues that are systemic. Particularly with
:10:00. > :10:03."Plebgate", I wonder how much of this new round, the new questions
:10:04. > :10:08.that the police, are because of who he was, who Andrew Mitchell was. I
:10:09. > :10:12.would like the take this opportunity to publicly apologise to Andrew
:10:13. > :10:16.Mitchell. Others should as well. I was among those who believed the
:10:17. > :10:19.version of Egypt of the Sun newspaper and the Police Federation.
:10:20. > :10:24.I think others should have been a lot more critical. Your question is
:10:25. > :10:28.right. Andrew Mitchell to his credit has said if this can happen to a
:10:29. > :10:32.Tory Cabinet Minister with all the power and influence and prestige
:10:33. > :10:38.that comes with that post, what hope for a young plaque man in Brixton?
:10:39. > :10:41.The other point to make is rightfully, and everyone should
:10:42. > :10:46.support his campaign for truth and for justice, but what does it say
:10:47. > :10:50.about our society where someone, a privileged Tory Cabinet Minister who
:10:51. > :10:53.is well connected in the media, can get truth, can clear his name
:10:54. > :10:58.effectively in the space of a few months, while it took the working
:10:59. > :11:03.class families of Liverpool, whose children, whose fathers went full of
:11:04. > :11:11.excitement and joy to a football match and ended up in body bags in a
:11:12. > :11:16.make-do gymnasium? It took them a courageous stand, but it took 25
:11:17. > :11:21.years to get truth let alone justice. It is the idea of how long
:11:22. > :11:26.that cover-up was sustained and the scale of collusion over it. I
:11:27. > :11:29.couldn't agree more. I described it as the worst example of a police
:11:30. > :11:32.cover-up in western history. Hillsborough is a disaster for
:11:33. > :11:35.police. A dreadful event and I praise Phil and his team with the
:11:36. > :11:40.been of Liverpool who did that inquiry. There are a number of
:11:41. > :11:43.points ina we need to consider. The Metropolitan Police considered the
:11:44. > :11:47.definition of institutional racism and has done a huge amount to deal
:11:48. > :11:53.with it. I personally think there's a number of organisations, including
:11:54. > :11:56.the BBC, which could be easily described as institutionally racist.
:11:57. > :12:00.Sure, but we are talking about the police today. We are. I'm just
:12:01. > :12:10.saying these big organisations will always have a thin underlying line
:12:11. > :12:15.of cast... With "Plebgate" too. I haven't finished yet. There seems to
:12:16. > :12:20.be a pushing all the time to get more information, the police come
:12:21. > :12:24.across as being very defensive. I think the police have moved into a
:12:25. > :12:27.defensive mind-set and that's partially to do with the phone
:12:28. > :12:30.hacking inquiry. It seems that the police have closed down, and I wish
:12:31. > :12:34.they were being more open. I would like to know for instance why the
:12:35. > :12:41.main "Plebgate" inquiry is taking so long? What we've got here is the
:12:42. > :12:46.overture to the main performance. What we need to understand is
:12:47. > :12:49.whether what Owen has said the true, that Andrew Mitchell's account is
:12:50. > :12:52.truthful or not. We don't know. You've been in the police a long
:12:53. > :12:55.time. What's your understanding about what's going on and how the
:12:56. > :13:01.police are handing these allegations? This allegation it
:13:02. > :13:05.seems to me seems to handled so slowly. I can't comment on what's
:13:06. > :13:10.happening in it. Where we go to though, and I think what Phil has
:13:11. > :13:16.done in that film, quite rightly, is to connect a series of apparently
:13:17. > :13:22.unconnected events, but they may not be. There is definitely room for a
:13:23. > :13:28.view a police that now needs to be re-examined. I actually wrote a code
:13:29. > :13:32.of ethics for the police 20 years ago. When did the police get a code
:13:33. > :13:36.of ethics? They should have had it 20 years ago but the Home Secretary
:13:37. > :13:42.turned it down. One of the issues Ian is talking about is here - how
:13:43. > :13:45.long do you have to wait? The issue of Hillsborough isn't about the
:13:46. > :13:50.families waiting 20 years for justry. It is that a whole swathe of
:13:51. > :13:55.senior police officers, of people involved in that process throughout
:13:56. > :14:00.that time, were in denial. That denial was reinforced over and again
:14:01. > :14:04.by Ian's colleagues. Throughout that period of 20 years. That, to me, is
:14:05. > :14:09.part of the issue. It is not just about how long we wait. It is about
:14:10. > :14:14.having appropriate oversight that comes very quickly to the fore, that
:14:15. > :14:19.actually represents the views of those who are seeking justice, and
:14:20. > :14:22.delivers. That's the issue. Just to pick up the point Ian made about
:14:23. > :14:26.institutional racism in the police. You are right. Racism isn't specific
:14:27. > :14:31.to the police. We still live in a racist society. The point is this.
:14:32. > :14:33.The police are uniquely able to deprive citizens of their liberty.
:14:34. > :14:39.That's why institutional racism is such an issue there. If we look at
:14:40. > :14:41.Release the drugs charity, it looked at Government statistics. Official
:14:42. > :14:45.Government statistics show if you are black you are nearly half as
:14:46. > :14:50.likely to take drugs as a white person. Yet in London you are six
:14:51. > :14:54.times more likely as a plaque person to be stopped and searched on
:14:55. > :14:58.suspicion of possession of drugs. If you are found with cannabis on you
:14:59. > :15:01.and you are black you are five times more likely to be charged with that
:15:02. > :15:06.offence than if you were a white person. There is one explanation for
:15:07. > :15:10.that, and that is racism. It comes a long time after Macpherson, a long
:15:11. > :15:14.time after the Stephen Lawrence investigation, and we have to
:15:15. > :15:24.address that as a society otherwise it raises fundamental questions
:15:25. > :15:27.about democracy. Leroy Logan is a former police officer. What do you
:15:28. > :15:33.make of the status of the police and the trust? Ian Blair, I think, feels
:15:34. > :15:38.overall that the police have changed for the better, even if there are
:15:39. > :15:41.still issues? Unfortunately, it is very disappointing that we are still
:15:42. > :15:46.in the same position. It's quite clear that the lack of
:15:47. > :15:58.accountability and transparency we are seeing in the police being held
:15:59. > :16:04.to account. What we seeing with the young people I am working with,
:16:05. > :16:11.through the Voyage programme, the Community Youth Coalition, it is
:16:12. > :16:14.clear that young people see that officers are not held to account,
:16:15. > :16:20.they are not being supervised properly. As a result of that, they
:16:21. > :16:25.think, well, if a senior minister can be stitched up, they believe
:16:26. > :16:28.every young black person, people from minority groups especially,
:16:29. > :16:34.candy in a similar position. And it happens on a day-to-day basis. How
:16:35. > :16:38.did you feel as an officer? Did you feel things were getting better, or
:16:39. > :16:43.did you feel like some of these young people you talk about? It was
:16:44. > :16:47.getting better, after the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. I gave evidence to
:16:48. > :16:52.the Stephen Lawrence inquiry and said that the police were
:16:53. > :16:57.institutionally racist. Then we saw the group chaired by the Home
:16:58. > :17:00.Secretary holding chief constables to account. The performance
:17:01. > :17:09.indicators were clear. As a result of that, what gets measured gets
:17:10. > :17:13.done. Unfortunately, since it has been devolved to chief constables,
:17:14. > :17:19.it is like marking their own homework. I just wanted to put that
:17:20. > :17:26.to Ian Blair. Unfortunately, issues on race and transparency have
:17:27. > :17:32.slipped. I want Ian Blair to respond to these concerns. Good morning,
:17:33. > :17:38.Leroy. I actually want to agree with Leroy. I was part of that Stephen
:17:39. > :17:42.Lawrence Steering Group. I believed when I became the deputy
:17:43. > :17:46.commissioner in 2000, just after the Stephen Lawrence report, that race
:17:47. > :17:52.was the most important issue in policing. What about now? I have
:17:53. > :18:00.watched it going down the agenda and I think it is wrong. Why? Other
:18:01. > :18:08.things, as always in life, takeover. Who decides that? It was never fully
:18:09. > :18:16.addressed. The bottom line is, I conducted the first research in
:18:17. > :18:20.Toxteth and Liverpool, after the uprising in the community. For that
:18:21. > :18:24.five or six year period, and I have written a lot about it, the
:18:25. > :18:28.relationship between the police and the Liverpool born black community
:18:29. > :18:33.was not an all-time low. There were slight improvements. There are
:18:34. > :18:37.issues that have not been dealt with. When we talk about
:18:38. > :18:43.institutionalised racism, and there is a distinction between what Claude
:18:44. > :18:50.MacPherson calls institutional racism, and institutionalised
:18:51. > :18:55.racism. Where it becomes embedded in the ideology. This is why the young
:18:56. > :18:58.people that Leroy is talking about have little or no faith in the
:18:59. > :19:03.police, I don't believe we have got into the depth of that and really
:19:04. > :19:09.challenged it. There has to be outside input on that on a day by
:19:10. > :19:14.day basis. One of the other issues is deaths in police custody. You are
:19:15. > :19:17.far more likely to die as a result of being after police contact or
:19:18. > :19:28.police custody if you are black. For example, Sean Rigg in Leicester. It
:19:29. > :19:33.is only because of the campaigning of his sister that it comes to the
:19:34. > :19:37.fore. We had a whitewash of an inquiry, exposing the failings of
:19:38. > :19:40.the IPCC, how toothless it is. Because it is so dominated by
:19:41. > :19:47.ex-police officers, for example, it does not hold the police to account.
:19:48. > :19:50.You end up in a situation where predominantly young black men are
:19:51. > :19:54.dying in police custody. I want to look at some of the changes in
:19:55. > :19:58.police culture that is apparently addressing these issues. We are
:19:59. > :20:04.joined by one of the police commissioners, Julia Mulligan, a
:20:05. > :20:09.Police and Crime Commissioner. You have heard the concerns. They seem
:20:10. > :20:16.to be these long-term ones. In your new job, what sense do you get of
:20:17. > :20:18.how things are? Are you optimistic? I am actually optimistic. I think
:20:19. > :20:24.there is a new generation of chief constables coming forward now that
:20:25. > :20:27.understand the principle of openness and transparency needs to be
:20:28. > :20:32.embedded in police culture. We are seeing a new code of ethics being
:20:33. > :20:39.produced by the College of policing. 20 years after Ian Blair proposed
:20:40. > :20:44.that? How will you do that? Can you tell me, briefly, how do you restore
:20:45. > :20:49.public trust? I agree with a lot of the commentators, the discussions
:20:50. > :21:12.around the need for independent investigations. change we are trying
:21:13. > :21:17.to bring in a more independent scrutiny of police. It needs to be
:21:18. > :21:24.independent from top to bottom. What is your view on who should be
:21:25. > :21:28.scrutinising the police? A lot of this is a matter of political will.
:21:29. > :21:33.The reason race was on the agenda was that Jack Straw was determined
:21:34. > :21:37.that it would be. You have got to keep the pressure on to make that
:21:38. > :21:43.sort of change. In terms of the IPCC, it needs to be strengthened
:21:44. > :21:47.massively. But it also needs to have the right people, with the right
:21:48. > :21:49.skills. Getting those that are not police officers in there is quite
:21:50. > :21:53.difficult. Because the police are the people that know how to
:21:54. > :21:58.investigate things. I know that David Davis talked about how in
:21:59. > :22:02.California they have started wearing microphones and it has brought down
:22:03. > :22:04.the use of force by police by two thirds. Are those the kinds of
:22:05. > :22:10.measures we should be thinking about? You can have specific
:22:11. > :22:15.responses. Listening to Julia, with all due respect, over 20, 30, 40
:22:16. > :22:18.years, I have heard that kind of comment, things are improving,
:22:19. > :22:23.things are getting better, and we don't see anything on the ground. At
:22:24. > :22:26.a local level, the oversight of the police, the strengthening of the
:22:27. > :22:31.commissioners and, of course, it was notoriously difficult to get people
:22:32. > :22:34.out to vote for that. But that kind of intervention at a local level is
:22:35. > :22:38.important. On the big cases, there has to be a standing commission of
:22:39. > :22:44.some sort that provides oversight, that provides understanding, that
:22:45. > :22:48.brings that level of independence and discipline. It is not that the
:22:49. > :22:52.police cannot investigate the police, they are the only people
:22:53. > :22:58.equipped to do so. But you have to have that discipline that oversees
:22:59. > :23:02.those investigations. We have had so many of these episodes now, we
:23:03. > :23:05.effectively need a public commissioner, a Royal commission as
:23:06. > :23:10.it would be called, which would not be full of establishment patsies,
:23:11. > :23:14.but would actually be witnesses, many of those that are affected by
:23:15. > :23:18.the recent scandals. Another scandal is women that had relationships with
:23:19. > :23:23.undercover police officers with false identities. We will not go
:23:24. > :23:27.into the detail of that. One of those women feels that she was raped
:23:28. > :23:30.by the state. We talk about phone hacking being intrusive. These are
:23:31. > :23:33.people that had relationships under false pretences with people that got
:23:34. > :23:38.into their lives, lived with them and, in one case, have a child with
:23:39. > :23:43.them. You need a Royal commission that looks at issues like racism,
:23:44. > :23:46.issues like Hillsborough, issues like Ian Tomlinson, and make sure
:23:47. > :23:52.that we change the police. Picture we have an IPCC that can hold on to
:23:53. > :23:55.account. We must not throw the baby out with the bath water. Every day
:23:56. > :24:01.there are police officers doing extremely brave, marvellous things.
:24:02. > :24:06.We must not smear them all. But, certainly, I have been calling for a
:24:07. > :24:11.Royal Commission with others for so long that I have almost forgotten
:24:12. > :24:14.it. It is more than 50 years since there was a Royal commission into
:24:15. > :24:18.the police. When the Conservatives were coming into power, we were
:24:19. > :24:22.asking them, can we have a Royal commission? They said they did not
:24:23. > :24:26.have enough time to do it. Thank you very much. Some of your thoughts,
:24:27. > :24:29.from those of you watching at home. Norman says, with lies and cover-up
:24:30. > :24:33.from the police, how can anyone trust them again? Andy says, there
:24:34. > :24:36.seems to be eight culture of dishonesty and closed ranks in the
:24:37. > :24:42.police force. I don't trust them at all. John says, I do trust the
:24:43. > :24:46.police, apart from plebgate, times and attitudes have changed. Melanie
:24:47. > :24:50.says, we have no choice but to trust the police. But I want to see
:24:51. > :24:56.transparency and discipline from the rank and file. Our vote is open. The
:24:57. > :25:06.question is, do you trust the police? You can only vote once.
:25:07. > :25:12.You have around 20 minutes before the vote closes. Still to come on
:25:13. > :25:21.Sunday Morning Live, how one man and his family gave up their wealth for
:25:22. > :25:33.religion. We sold the house. We gave our dog away and moved back to
:25:34. > :25:36.inland. Today, Hindus will be celebrating Diwali, the Festival of
:25:37. > :25:42.light. Used as part of the celebrations will be an ancient
:25:43. > :25:48.symbol regarded as auspicious by them, the swastika. But many see it
:25:49. > :25:59.as a symbol of evil, due to the use by the Nazis. Hindus and Jains see
:26:00. > :26:07.it as a divine blessing and many want to reclaim it. That is the
:26:08. > :26:12.focus of a programme on BBC One. He made what seemed at the time and
:26:13. > :26:19.insignificant decision. Adolf Hitler adopted a symbol for his national
:26:20. > :26:23.democratic socialist party. It was a symbol which, over the next two
:26:24. > :26:33.decades, would become synonymous with hatred, fear and a regime that
:26:34. > :26:41.slaughtered millions. The swastika. The swastika means nazism, it means
:26:42. > :26:50.evil, death and genocide. In Auschwitz, it was an emblem I hated.
:26:51. > :26:54.I didn't even want to see it. But the swastika has a long and complex
:26:55. > :26:59.history. For thousands of years, this has been a religious symbol
:27:00. > :27:09.with a sacred past. A sign of benevolence, luck and good fortune.
:27:10. > :27:13.For the nearly 1 billion Hindus around the world today, it lies at
:27:14. > :27:18.the heart of their religious practices and beliefs. For me,
:27:19. > :27:26.personally, the swastika means hope. It means purity, or spaciousness.
:27:27. > :27:30.The swastika will be used by Hindus to evoke a sense of the sacred, to
:27:31. > :27:37.draw the attention of the divine to human undertakings. I'm sorry about
:27:38. > :27:43.a view sound issues in that report. The story of the swastika, that
:27:44. > :27:46.documentary, is on later today on BBC One. The campaign to reclaim the
:27:47. > :27:51.swastika will be made harder by the anniversary next week of Crystal
:27:52. > :27:54.Mac, where Nazis carried out a series of rebel attacks against Jews
:27:55. > :28:01.throughout Germany. What do you think about the swastika? Can it
:28:02. > :28:04.shake off its Nazis this year and is? You can take part in the debate
:28:05. > :28:12.through webcam, phone, e-mail or online. Joining me is Kiran Bali and
:28:13. > :28:21.Jewish writer and comedian David Schneider. How would you like to see
:28:22. > :28:26.the swastika used in Diwali unwired -- and why is it so important. Light
:28:27. > :28:32.over darkness, knowledge over ignorance, and with the swastika
:28:33. > :28:35.healing and hope from the hatred of Hitler. This is an ancient symbol
:28:36. > :28:40.that still maintains its pre-eminence amongst many religious
:28:41. > :28:44.symbols in many cultures and traditions. We need to separate
:28:45. > :28:48.accurate facts from distortions. Hitler knew what he was doing when
:28:49. > :28:52.he appropriated a symbol like that. Have the Nazis damaged it
:28:53. > :28:59.irreparably because of the fact they used it? They tried to damage it,
:29:00. > :29:05.they tried to propagate fear and hatred. But for the billion people
:29:06. > :29:07.who see this as a symbol of hope, or spaciousness and benevolence, we
:29:08. > :29:10.have to work with those communities that were hurt by what Hitler has
:29:11. > :29:17.done and change their perceptions. This can only be done through
:29:18. > :29:22.interfaith dialogue. What do you make of it? Is there a case for
:29:23. > :29:27.saying there is a victory in trying to reclaim it? It was interesting,
:29:28. > :29:33.there was such an emotional reaction for me to seeing the swastika. If
:29:34. > :29:38.the question is can it be a symbol of hope? Clearly it is, for many
:29:39. > :29:42.people. For me it remains the symbol of ultimate evil. You are right, it
:29:43. > :29:50.is an ancient symbol. But symbols change. The word gay means different
:29:51. > :30:03.to what it was, everything changes, awful and nice... What does it mean?
:30:04. > :30:08.Awful used to men full of awe. For many Jews and many people in the
:30:09. > :30:11.West, as you are aware, it has a meaning that is the opposite of
:30:12. > :30:19.hope. I suppose there is a dialogue to camp there. I would say, with
:30:20. > :30:25.people like me, good luck. We need to look at the bigger picture. I
:30:26. > :30:29.want to bring in Ian. Who owns swastika now? The answer to that
:30:30. > :30:32.question, I have no idea. What my position on this would be, it should
:30:33. > :30:37.be redeemable but I don't think it is. Ever? I don't think it is
:30:38. > :30:44.redeemable for centuries. Look at what's happening in Greece. The
:30:45. > :30:48.golden dawn are using a swastika, a right-wing racist massively
:30:49. > :30:52.nationalist party, what symbol did they adopt? The swastika. It is a
:30:53. > :30:57.wonderful idea but it is early. There are still people alive who saw
:30:58. > :31:01.the swastika flying over Germany and Europe. It's the worst crime in
:31:02. > :31:06.human history. Sit partly a matter of time? Is it partly geography, as
:31:07. > :31:11.Dave was saying, that in the western world you can't expect to show it
:31:12. > :31:16.publicly, however it is in India? They don't understand the use of it.
:31:17. > :31:19.This is where education comes in. We must look at the majority of people
:31:20. > :31:26.who see this as a symbol of goodness. Even in the last couple of
:31:27. > :31:31.days I've been educated about the meaning it has tore Hindus, but it
:31:32. > :31:37.is about context and at the moment the swastika, overwhelmingly in the
:31:38. > :31:41.West, among non-Hindus and Jains and Buddhists, hate a different meaning.
:31:42. > :31:45.I would be slightly worried if it was totally reclaimed, because it
:31:46. > :31:50.would make me worry that the evil associations of the swastika will
:31:51. > :31:57.have been forgotten and therefore Hitler and what happened there might
:31:58. > :32:00.be. We share that deep hurt and anguish, but it is an opportunity as
:32:01. > :32:04.well. There is so much time and resource going into interfaith
:32:05. > :32:10.dialogue and understanding. Sit partly about where you see it?
:32:11. > :32:15.Daubed on a wall. It is like when you do it as a comedian, when you
:32:16. > :32:20.make a comment on television, you've got to be aware of who your audience
:32:21. > :32:24.is. It is all about the context, so there'll be things I would say
:32:25. > :32:29.privately to friend I might not say here on television. It's the same
:32:30. > :32:32.with having a symbol like the swastika that it is obviously fine
:32:33. > :32:36.within your community, but if you were to bring into it my community
:32:37. > :32:40.or home it would have a different resonance. It is just being
:32:41. > :32:45.sensitive. Absolutely, and common sense. You've played Goebbels. I
:32:46. > :32:51.have. Listen, I'm an actor - I will do anything! But explain that. You
:32:52. > :32:56.happen to be of Jewish background. Yes. Not like you can't touch it or
:32:57. > :33:01.deal with it. Absolutely. I do comedy about the Holocaust. That's
:33:02. > :33:06.because I'm aware of the context, I'm aware of the people I will be
:33:07. > :33:12.performing it to, so when I performed Goebbels, when I was
:33:13. > :33:17.Goebbels, it was in a film where it was satirising the Third Reich and
:33:18. > :33:21.the insignia and the symbols I felt I could stand behind it and defend
:33:22. > :33:27.why my performance of Goebbels was on the side of good rather than
:33:28. > :33:35.evil. Isn't it being done with good intent... Nobody are going to say
:33:36. > :33:38.the Hindus and their swastika use is bad. I think we can do that by
:33:39. > :33:43.people experiencing the use of the swastika in the temples and the
:33:44. > :33:48.homes of the Hindu community. I do think it is going to take centuries.
:33:49. > :33:52.It is like the Vikings. You can see children's cartoons with Vikings
:33:53. > :33:56.now. They are funny. They weren't at the time. Sit like the Spanish
:33:57. > :34:00.Inquisition? Exactly. I think there is a matter of respect for the dead
:34:01. > :34:05.killed by the Nazis. Not tonight dead who were killed in the camps
:34:06. > :34:12.but the people who died fighting the Nazis. This is the biggest event of
:34:13. > :34:16.the 20th century, the number of deaths is so enormous that it is
:34:17. > :34:21.just a bit about taking more time, let people who are involved die, so
:34:22. > :34:26.otherwise people I think will get pretty offended. I would like to
:34:27. > :34:36.bring in a contributor on webcam, the deputy chairman of the Institute
:34:37. > :34:41.of Jainology. I know in your faith the swastika is important. Used an
:34:42. > :34:51.experience at your son's wedding, is that right? That is correct. The
:34:52. > :35:01.swastika is an inauspicious symbol in Jainism. If you go to a Jane
:35:02. > :35:03.temple you will find this set of symbol
:35:04. > :35:08.PROBLEM WITH SOUND What did you change about your son's wedding
:35:09. > :35:12.invitations when sending hem out? Generally in western countries we
:35:13. > :35:15.feels not right the put the symbol where it is visible to other people,
:35:16. > :35:20.because they have the wrong impression about the swastika. So
:35:21. > :35:25.you had them pasted up on the invitation, the you sent them back?
:35:26. > :35:30.In my son's wedding the invitation card had the symbol inside but the
:35:31. > :35:34.angle at which it was posted was printed with a swastika, which I had
:35:35. > :35:40.to reorder without the swastika. Because I felt that the people
:35:41. > :35:47.coming into contact with thisful like the postmen might get the wrong
:35:48. > :35:52.idea of who we are. You've heard people saying about trying to
:35:53. > :35:55.reclaim it, that it is too sensitive for history and it is not just a
:35:56. > :35:59.matter of survivors of the whole cause, but something fend them in
:36:00. > :36:03.the West. I know you teach courses about its history. Do you genuinely
:36:04. > :36:10.think you can reclaim it any time soon? Not soon, but it will take
:36:11. > :36:14.time, but it will take effect gradually. When we teach the
:36:15. > :36:19.courses, we try to explain the meaning in various faiths. We wanted
:36:20. > :36:23.to understand that there are difference and views can differ, so
:36:24. > :36:28.we should expect each other's views. OK. Thank you. I would like to bring
:36:29. > :36:31.in Alex Goldberg, a chaplain o University of Surrey. I understand
:36:32. > :36:37.you've changed your mind on the issue of reclaiming the swastika.
:36:38. > :36:44.Can you tell us how? Good morning Samira, yes. Whenever I see a
:36:45. > :36:52.swastika I do re in its image. David was saying that, it remind me of the
:36:53. > :36:59.Holocaust, and racism, what was done under that banner in the 1920s and
:37:00. > :37:06.30s. But having had interfaith dialogue with Hindus and Jains and
:37:07. > :37:12.others it is about good. Let me give you another example. There was a
:37:13. > :37:17.telecommunications advert in Britain 10-15 years ago, the future is
:37:18. > :37:22.bright, the future is orange. If you put that down 500 yards from your
:37:23. > :37:30.studio, there'll be uproar. In London it doesn't mean anything. We
:37:31. > :37:33.have to realise that the hindy community -- Hindu community it
:37:34. > :37:39.means something different for Jews... I was walking past the
:37:40. > :37:45.Indian High Commission. If somebody drops a swastika down the bottom of
:37:46. > :37:51.my street it is a symbol of hate and those people should be prosecuted
:37:52. > :37:57.and charged with criminal damage. The German Metropolitan Polices
:37:58. > :38:02.tried to ban it -- the German MEPs tried to ban it. That would be
:38:03. > :38:06.terribly unfair to the Hindus. Is part of the problem that the
:38:07. > :38:10.swastika has often been used by pop stars as a provocative and
:38:11. > :38:16.deliberately insulting gesture and that adds to the problem trying to
:38:17. > :38:21.reclaim it? We must not allow the misuse of the swastika to with the
:38:22. > :38:26.-- to be the dominant factor. The symbols have been misused in the
:38:27. > :38:29.past. The burning cross was used to terrorise people, the native
:38:30. > :38:33.Americans. These are horrific events, but you still see the cross
:38:34. > :38:37.everywhere don't you, because we associate the cross with religion,
:38:38. > :38:42.God and hope. Ian, that's a comparison that people might make,
:38:43. > :38:49.the cross doesn't have those associations over although. No, that
:38:50. > :38:57.misuse of the burning Crosby the Ku Klux Klan or something is always
:38:58. > :39:03.small, but the prosecution by the Nazis was so massive it will last
:39:04. > :39:11.forever. My issue is or my worry is in 30 years, I know that young
:39:12. > :39:16.people are starting to get tattoos, non-Hindus, atheists, swastika
:39:17. > :39:21.tattoos because they are trying to reclaim it. My worry is that if it
:39:22. > :39:28.is totally reclaimed will we still remember the negative side? My time
:39:29. > :39:32.question is, sit almost the worst thing to say when everybody with a
:39:33. > :39:36.living meme Royal Family the war has died, that's when we should reclaim
:39:37. > :39:41.it. It is not just about the Holocaust, I'm not a Jew banging on
:39:42. > :39:44.about the Holocaust forever, but I feel it is important that we
:39:45. > :39:52.remember about evil in this world. The cast a is a very convenient coat
:39:53. > :39:55.peg for us to debate evil. Even though we would want, that it is
:39:56. > :40:00.important to remember the swastika as an evil thing so we can learn for
:40:01. > :40:04.that. But we should not have double standards between the cross and the
:40:05. > :40:08.swastika. Both have been misused for horrific purposes but we need to
:40:09. > :40:12.work together to be optimistic and challenge that use of it. Thank you.
:40:13. > :40:19.Alan says isn't it sincesensitive to use the symbol as long as there are
:40:20. > :40:25.Holocaust survivor alive today. Lauren says if it could be reclaimed
:40:26. > :40:28.as a symbol of hope, it should be reclaimed. John says the damage has
:40:29. > :40:32.been done. Thank you. You've been voting on the
:40:33. > :40:37.question: Do you trust the police. The vote is closing on that now, so
:40:38. > :40:42.do not text or you may still be charged. We'll bring the result at
:40:43. > :40:46.the end of the show. The Pope has suspended a senior
:40:47. > :40:51.Catholic cleric who has been dubbed by the media as the "bishop of
:40:52. > :40:55.bling". Franz-Peter Tebartz-van Elst has been asked to step down from his
:40:56. > :41:01.diocese in Germany pending the outcome of a Church enquiry. He's
:41:02. > :41:08.been criticised over the ?27 million refurbishment of his residence.
:41:09. > :41:13.Pope Francis has crit sides clerics who live too lavishly. He told hem
:41:14. > :41:18.not to live like Princes and has chosen to live in a Vatican
:41:19. > :41:22.guesthouse rather than HIV in a papal apartment. Is it wrong for
:41:23. > :41:27.religious leaders to live in style? Should those of fifth live humbly?
:41:28. > :41:35.We visited a group of Catholics in England whose members have chosen to
:41:36. > :41:39.live a life of poverty. The Catholic worker farm community
:41:40. > :41:44.in Hertfordshire is part of a movement founded in the 1930s which
:41:45. > :41:58.believes in works of mercy and poverty as a way of life. There are
:41:59. > :42:06.185 such communities around the world. This one is run with the help
:42:07. > :42:12.of volunteers by Americans Scott and Maria albreak. Scott had a big house
:42:13. > :42:16.and a $50,000 a year salary in Chicago, but after he became a
:42:17. > :42:21.Christian it made him reassess his life. I started reflecting on the
:42:22. > :42:25.gospel reading where Jesus meets the rich young man and says, if you wish
:42:26. > :42:29.to be perfect, go and sell all that you have and come and follow after
:42:30. > :42:36.me. So he and his wife sold everything and moved to England to
:42:37. > :42:39.set up the farm in 2006. The community grows much of its own food
:42:40. > :42:45.and gives shelter to homeless people. There are 17 here at the
:42:46. > :42:49.moment. One of those is Marie, originally from South Africa, who
:42:50. > :42:54.wended -- who ended up destitute after the British man she married
:42:55. > :42:58.left her. I couldn't have coped, because he been sleeping on the
:42:59. > :43:03.streets rusks I had been riding buses. A friend had given me money
:43:04. > :43:08.ever week, so I was sleeping on buses. It was exhausting. Here item
:43:09. > :43:13.office isn't on material wealth, and the volunteers and guests devote
:43:14. > :43:21.themselves to working on the land and regular prayer sessions. Hall
:43:22. > :43:26.Hywelia, allieuia, I am the way, the truth and the lights says the Lord.
:43:27. > :43:31.No-one can come to the Father except through me... We live in voluntary
:43:32. > :43:37.poverty here, because it creates the space for us to Minister effectively
:43:38. > :43:41.to the women and children. Scott believes that there is no bar to
:43:42. > :43:47.being wealthy and religious. But you have to share your good fortune, and
:43:48. > :43:53.he uses the words of St Paul as his guiding motto. Paul says, true
:43:54. > :44:00.religion is this. To help the widow and the orphan. So I suppose you can
:44:01. > :44:04.be wealthy and be truly religious in the Pauline sense, but that means
:44:05. > :44:11.that you have to use your wealth to help the widow and the orphan. So,
:44:12. > :44:17.is being poor closer to Godliness or can you be rich and religious? We
:44:18. > :44:23.are joined once again by Owen Jones. Dave, I want to start but, is it a
:44:24. > :44:28.core Christian belief thaw can't be rich and religious? Obviously I'm
:44:29. > :44:33.Jewish, but a lot of my best friends are Christians. In fact I got
:44:34. > :44:37.married in a church - sorry mum. And I think it, obviously there's a
:44:38. > :44:42.sense in the New Testament and the Old, what attracts me about both is
:44:43. > :44:46.the love thy neighbour and looking after the vulnerable, as the guy
:44:47. > :44:49.just said there. Far be it for me to say you can't be rich and be
:44:50. > :44:54.Christian, I'm more a political person. I find it weird that I have
:44:55. > :45:00.to try and get my head around how someone can be right-wing and
:45:01. > :45:10.Conservative and a good person. That's a terrible thing to say There
:45:11. > :45:17.is a view of Jesus as a socialist figure, easier for a rich man to get
:45:18. > :45:22.into heaven... Easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
:45:23. > :45:27.Religion, and I say this as an atheist, you get a certain breed of
:45:28. > :45:30.atheist that says religion is the root of evil. Religions have been
:45:31. > :45:34.used to history to justify everything. My great uncle was a
:45:35. > :45:39.Methodist preacher and a socialist. He used his Christianity to justify
:45:40. > :45:47.that socialism. But look at the losses, it was used to justify
:45:48. > :45:49.Franco's regime in Spain. But it was also used to create so-called
:45:50. > :45:56.liberation theology in Latin America. Religion can be used to
:45:57. > :45:59.justify all sorts of very different and conflicting positions. People
:46:00. > :46:04.are very selective about the various texts they used to justify it. I
:46:05. > :46:10.would like to bring in Michael Walsh. He is a Catholic historian
:46:11. > :46:13.and a former Jesuit priest. In light of the latest allegations about this
:46:14. > :46:18.German bishop, I just wonder how Catholics view these scandals, given
:46:19. > :46:21.that we know there is a great deal of wealth and property,
:46:22. > :46:32.historically, that the Catholic Church has? I would be surprised
:46:33. > :46:35.if... The Catholic Church, as such, doesn't have any money. It is the
:46:36. > :46:38.bishop that has the money, the dioceses. Some of them are wealthy,
:46:39. > :46:45.some of them are not. Particularly those in Germany, where there is a
:46:46. > :46:51.tax on all Christians that are paid over to the church. How significant
:46:52. > :46:55.is what the Pope said about this? Obviously there is an investigation
:46:56. > :46:59.is still ongoing. His background in Latin America, liberation theology,
:47:00. > :47:01.tell us a bit about that tension in the Catholic Church about its
:47:02. > :47:12.relationship with poverty and wealth? Well, religious orders,
:47:13. > :47:18.people that enter religious life, have always taken a vow of poverty.
:47:19. > :47:26.One of the problems with the church, one of the facts about the
:47:27. > :47:29.church, is that it is inherited. The Vatican, if something has to be done
:47:30. > :47:35.with it, you can't just hand it over. Particularly the idea that
:47:36. > :47:40.this Pope is telling bishops and senior clerics to live not like
:47:41. > :47:45.princes, it sounds like there is an attempt to change something about
:47:46. > :47:52.the senior church, clerics, their relationship with wealth and status,
:47:53. > :47:57.doesn't it? Absolutely, yes. He is not so much telling them, he is
:47:58. > :48:03.acting it out. That leaves an even greater impression than just telling
:48:04. > :48:09.them. He is living it out and it is very impressive. I think Catholics
:48:10. > :48:14.will be very moved by it. Is it something of a Western obsession
:48:15. > :48:20.about wealth somehow being an religious? The term filthy rich. In
:48:21. > :48:24.Hinduism, it's a different attitude? We need to interpret the word wealth
:48:25. > :48:27.in its right context. It doesn't always refer to monetary wealth. But
:48:28. > :48:35.we are talking about monetary wealth. We are taught about living a
:48:36. > :48:38.basic life, that we need some amount of wealth for survival. We should
:48:39. > :48:45.not become too attached to amassing huge amounts of wealth. One of the
:48:46. > :48:55.fascinating things about Hindu culture, there is a goddess of
:48:56. > :49:02.fortune. People do invoke Ganesh. Is that potentially problematic? The
:49:03. > :49:08.practice of faith does vary. Some people do everywhere by the book,
:49:09. > :49:12.some will not. Is not about how you use your wealth? You can be wealthy
:49:13. > :49:16.and use it well in a religious and good way. You can be poor and not
:49:17. > :49:22.use your wealth well and not be a good person? Victorian
:49:23. > :49:27.philanthropists, they did a number of great deeds in the name of
:49:28. > :49:30.Christianity? People hark back sure that Victorian age of philanthropy,
:49:31. > :49:34.which was justified by Christian belief and faith. It was this idea
:49:35. > :49:38.that the poor should wait for the benevolence of the rich. You have a
:49:39. > :49:44.patchwork provision of services and so on because of that. It was
:49:45. > :49:47.Clement Attlee who said that charity is a grey and loveless thing. If a
:49:48. > :49:51.rich man wants to help the poor, they should pay their taxes gladly.
:49:52. > :49:58.It was an idea of moving away from this patchwork, where you wait,
:49:59. > :50:01.piecemeal, for the rich to help the poor from the goodness of their
:50:02. > :50:04.hearts, anti-tax people on the basis of their wealth to provide universal
:50:05. > :50:09.services for all. I would reject that path. The Christian Socialist
:50:10. > :50:18.'s themselves rejected that in favour of a universal provision.
:50:19. > :50:24.Very focused on making a difference to real-life, people deliberately
:50:25. > :50:30.giving up possessions? A lot of people are making contribution to
:50:31. > :50:37.charity, both visibly and anonymously. I want to bring in
:50:38. > :50:43.another contributor, Rabbi Goldsmith, who works at a synagogue
:50:44. > :50:46.in London. Should religions be anti-wealth? I don't think they
:50:47. > :50:50.should be at all. Without wealth, you don't have food security for the
:50:51. > :50:55.many, you do not have security shelter for the many, you don't have
:50:56. > :50:59.education to meet shared with the many and you don't have communities
:51:00. > :51:03.that can manage to include. Wealth is actually a necessary thing. As we
:51:04. > :51:06.have been hearing, we have been seeing it at the bottom of the
:51:07. > :51:10.screen when people have been contributing, what matters is that
:51:11. > :51:13.if you are wealthy, you consider a corner of your field, whatever it is
:51:14. > :51:18.you have, to be shared with the poor. It is a duty. It does not
:51:19. > :51:23.belong to you, it belongs to the poor, the orphan and the widow. That
:51:24. > :51:27.is a value I never shared with other religions. In Islam, it is a
:51:28. > :51:31.fundamental pillar of the faith that you give a 10th of your income to
:51:32. > :51:35.charity. Is that something that more people should think about if they
:51:36. > :51:42.regard themselves as religious? Absolutely. It is also an obligation
:51:43. > :51:47.in Judaism to give. The idea is that you do not own a portion of your
:51:48. > :51:52.wealth. It must be given to other people. The other thing is, you are
:51:53. > :51:55.also not supposed to give away some of your wealth that you then become
:51:56. > :52:00.a burden on the community. It is interesting, seeing the tape earlier
:52:01. > :52:09.on of the gentleman that did exactly that. He reminds me of a piece by a
:52:10. > :52:12.rabbi who says, who is rich is the person satisfied with their lot. You
:52:13. > :52:18.could see that is what they managed to create. Giving away wealth is not
:52:19. > :52:24.a secret. Where do you think we go from here? I'm interested in this
:52:25. > :52:29.idea that on one hand material wealth is to be renounced in
:52:30. > :52:33.Hinduism, and yet there is a great celebration of material prosperity
:52:34. > :52:40.in a lot of Hindu cultures? Somethings are utilised to help to
:52:41. > :52:46.understand the Divine better. We use light to see things, that helps us
:52:47. > :52:49.to obtain spiritual enlightenment. That is why you might see some
:52:50. > :52:55.temples that look very magnificent. People worry about that, also
:52:56. > :53:00.cathedrals. There is Karl Marx's view that religion is the opiate of
:53:01. > :53:06.the masses. People come to fancy temples... Going to some of the
:53:07. > :53:10.cathedrals of southern Europe, they are so impressive. You think, yes,
:53:11. > :53:14.they were built to impress. But the amount of gold, in the Vatican as
:53:15. > :53:17.well, the value of some of those paintings and what you could do with
:53:18. > :53:21.that, I think it is very alienating. That is what was
:53:22. > :53:25.inspiring about your video. That feels more religious and authentic.
:53:26. > :53:28.The big question with politicians and religious leaders is, does your
:53:29. > :53:32.wealth mean you are out of touch with people that are needy? A Latin
:53:33. > :53:38.American priest said, when I help the poor they called me a saint,
:53:39. > :53:42.when I asked why they were poor, they called me a communist. He was
:53:43. > :53:46.killed. There was a strain of religious people that have been
:53:47. > :53:49.active, not just saying you have to be charitable, but question the way
:53:50. > :53:53.society is organised and why you end up with these inequalities. The
:53:54. > :54:00.point you make about Karl Marx, I just wanted to but in, I did a video
:54:01. > :54:04.all about Karl Marx last week, but that quote is often very
:54:05. > :54:08.misunderstood. What he said was that religious expression, if you like,
:54:09. > :54:11.was an expression of real suffering and a protest against that
:54:12. > :54:15.suffering. He was not damning religious people, if you like, or
:54:16. > :54:19.saying we should treat them with disrespect. He was saying, actually,
:54:20. > :54:24.it is the conditions which, if you like, religion and people being
:54:25. > :54:28.devoutly religious is almost a kind of protest against suffering. In
:54:29. > :54:35.Hinduism, I know from Ioan family background, I have Hindu relatives
:54:36. > :54:38.that talk, well, there is a sense of karma, it will be rewarded.
:54:39. > :54:53.Sometimes it can be used to tell people they should accept poverty
:54:54. > :54:58.and inequality? , karma is about reading what you sow. The focus is
:54:59. > :55:03.not the material side of it. Both are sacred and both are used to
:55:04. > :55:09.enlighten the soul. The worship that goes on in these temples, it is a
:55:10. > :55:14.support network, it allows people to come together with dialogue. Is it
:55:15. > :55:18.not true that religion offers a comfort, which can be a good thing
:55:19. > :55:22.for people that are very in need? It is also that question, if you get
:55:23. > :55:25.them to question why they are in need and take away religion, maybe
:55:26. > :55:30.they will start changing things and that could be a good thing? I am
:55:31. > :55:34.afraid we have to leave that discussion. The question you have
:55:35. > :55:39.been voting on in our online vote today is if you trust the police.
:55:40. > :55:46.Here is what you told us. 20% of you said yes. 80% said no. These are not
:55:47. > :55:53.scientific polls, it is the people that choose to take part. But people
:55:54. > :55:58.feel strongly. That is a strong... I think we are taking it at a very
:55:59. > :56:02.specific point in time, plebgate is really prominent. But that shows
:56:03. > :56:07.just what needs to be done for the police to regain trust. Some of the
:56:08. > :56:11.comments, one says, some individual police officers are trustworthy but
:56:12. > :56:14.the police, generally, are not. Another says, confidence has been
:56:15. > :56:18.lost, not only through cases with a high level of publicity but through
:56:19. > :56:23.small, everyday decisions that show a lack of common sense. Gill says,
:56:24. > :56:25.nothing disgusts me more than police corruption. However, the good guys
:56:26. > :56:32.outnumber the bad guys. Christine says there is good and bad in all
:56:33. > :56:35.walks of life and the bad ones are usually at the top. It's a shame
:56:36. > :56:39.bobbies on the beach take the flak. I think it shows the disconnect and
:56:40. > :56:43.the endemic lack of trust that people have for the police force.
:56:44. > :56:48.The point is not about individual police officers, it is systemic
:56:49. > :56:54.issues, the culture. Away to address this is to have a royal commission.
:56:55. > :57:00.We need to look at undercover police officers, the miners strike,
:57:01. > :57:03.Hillsborough, all of that together. Far-reaching reforms, holding police
:57:04. > :57:07.to account, making sure all communities are treated equally, no
:57:08. > :57:13.matter who they are and taking on the culture of conspiracy. As a
:57:14. > :57:16.member of a police authority, I have experienced first-hand the excellent
:57:17. > :57:20.work that the majority of the police force are doing. We must continue to
:57:21. > :57:26.support them. Also, we must have proper accountability. Briefly, do
:57:27. > :57:31.you think they can do it? Under this new structure, they must continue to
:57:32. > :57:36.work to find the best solution to ensure we have top accountability
:57:37. > :57:43.and we are able to show that the police are doing their job
:57:44. > :57:48.properly. On plebgate, I wonder who their PR person is. They should sort
:57:49. > :57:53.it out quickly. There is so much evasion going on, it is damaging. We
:57:54. > :57:56.have to leave it there. Thanks to everyone that has taken part in
:57:57. > :58:01.today's programme, my contributors through webcam and all of my studio
:58:02. > :58:06.guest scholar Owen Jones, David Schneider and Kiran Bali, and
:58:07. > :58:09.Professor Phil Scraton who joined us earlier. Do not text or call the
:58:10. > :58:13.phone lines any more, they are closed. You can continue the
:58:14. > :58:16.conversation online. The links are on the website. There is no Sunday
:58:17. > :58:24.Morning Live next week because of the remembrance commemorations. Do
:58:25. > :58:27.join us again in a fortnight. From everybody on the team, good by.