:00:00. > :00:09.A British Marine is awaiting sentence for shooting dead an Afghan
:00:10. > :00:12.insurgent. It's been called a "heinous crime" by his
:00:13. > :00:15.Commander-in-Chief. Others say he deserves some clemency because of
:00:16. > :00:20.the stress he was under. Falklands veteran Simon Weston is one of
:00:21. > :00:21.those. We ask you to decide: Should crimes committed in war be treated
:00:22. > :00:48.leniently? Good morning, I'm Samira Ahmed. Also
:00:49. > :00:50.on today's programme: This week, Prince Charles described the
:00:51. > :00:53.countryside as "the unacknowledged backbone of our national identity."
:00:54. > :01:00.But are we ruining it by placing too much focus on cities? Sorry about
:01:01. > :01:04.that, I am Samira Ahmed and I am really here! Also on the programme,
:01:05. > :01:08.Prince Charles described the countryside as the unacknowledged
:01:09. > :01:17.backbone of our community. But are reruining it by placing too much
:01:18. > :01:21.emphasis on our cities. And, Ann Widdecombe tells us why she believes
:01:22. > :01:24.repenting for our sins could make us a less selfish society. Joining me
:01:25. > :01:28.this week are Jennie Bond, who was the BBC's royal correspondent for 14
:01:29. > :01:30.years. Nick Ferrari, radio talk show host and newspaper columnist. And
:01:31. > :01:50.vicar and environmental campaigner, Reverend Peter Owen-Jones.
:01:51. > :01:54.The horrors of war are well documented, but where do you draw
:01:55. > :01:58.the line? That debate has been ignited by the case a Marine found
:01:59. > :02:05.guilty by a court martial of shooting a prisoner in Afghanistan.
:02:06. > :02:09.-- shooting dead a prisoner in Afghanistan. He is due to be
:02:10. > :02:13.sentenced on the 6th of December and faces a mandatory life sentence. But
:02:14. > :02:16.is that fair for a soldier under the unique stresses of constant combat?
:02:17. > :02:20.Or is murder always murder whether it happens on the battlefield or the
:02:21. > :02:23.high street? We'll debate that in a moment. First the background - and I
:02:24. > :02:28.must warn you that this film contains some content which people
:02:29. > :02:33.may find distressing. Marine A was found guilty of killing a badly
:02:34. > :02:38.wounded insurgent who had been taken prisoner. The two Marines with him,
:02:39. > :02:43.known as B and C, were acquitted. The case came to light after a
:02:44. > :02:48.helmet camera video of the incident was found by civilian police on a
:02:49. > :02:51.laptop belonging to one of the Marines.
:02:52. > :03:01.Anybody want to do first aid on this idiot? Nope. I'll put one in his
:03:02. > :03:07.head, if you want. Take your pick. Shortly after this point, a gunshot
:03:08. > :03:09.is heard. The footage shows Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a
:03:10. > :03:20.pistol. Shuffle awful this mortal coil
:03:21. > :03:25.you... It is nothing he wouldn't do to us. Obviously this doesn't go
:03:26. > :03:29.anywhere, fellas, I've just broken the Geneva convention. Marine A said
:03:30. > :03:33.he thought the insurgent was already dead and his defence mentioned
:03:34. > :03:40.incidents where the Taliban had hung body parts of Marine A's dead
:03:41. > :03:45.comrades from trees. Chief Chief of the Defence Staff made it clear that
:03:46. > :03:50.Marine A must face the normal course of justice and there could be no
:03:51. > :03:54.special pleading. No serviceman or woman of the British armed forces
:03:55. > :03:58.above the law. They are not above the law, the law of the country,
:03:59. > :04:03.international law, or the law of armed conflict. This was a heinous
:04:04. > :04:09.crime. Judicial process has found this individual guilty. And it would
:04:10. > :04:19.be quite wrong for the armed forces to adopt some special pleading, some
:04:20. > :04:23.sort of exemption. Nevertheless the unique stresses of war should be
:04:24. > :04:28.taken into account in sentencing, according to one former Army
:04:29. > :04:32.officer. We don't know what sort of pressure he was under, however cool
:04:33. > :04:37.he may have sounded on that tape, and how premeditated it may have
:04:38. > :04:43.sounded. I believe that some sort of clemency should be exercised in this
:04:44. > :04:48.case of this chap. So, should leniency be shown to members of the
:04:49. > :04:53.Armed Forces who commit crimes while under stress in conflict zones, or
:04:54. > :04:59.should they face the full weight of the law, to stand as a warning to
:05:00. > :05:04.others? The case of Marine A. Nick, should there be leniency in cases
:05:05. > :05:09.like this? I want to see the same level of leniency exented to this
:05:10. > :05:13.Marine who puts his life on the line for this country, as we regularly
:05:14. > :05:16.see in our courts for civilians every day of every week. It is a
:05:17. > :05:20.question for our text and online vote this week. Should there be
:05:21. > :05:25.leniency for soldiers who commit crimes in conflict. Text the word
:05:26. > :05:36.VOTE followed by YES or No to 81771. .
:05:37. > :05:44.Peter, I was wondering this, idea that a murder on the high street is
:05:45. > :05:47.perhaps different to a killing in these circumstances. Do you think
:05:48. > :05:51.there's a distinction to be made? I don't think there is any distinction
:05:52. > :05:56.to be made. I think what disturbs me greatly about this is that here we
:05:57. > :06:01.are saying that someone, Marine A, has committed a war crime. The crime
:06:02. > :06:05.is war. I think we've all just to get our heads around this. The very
:06:06. > :06:09.idea that 20 minutes earlier he could have been involved in a
:06:10. > :06:12.battle, he could have killed three or four people and that's fine, we
:06:13. > :06:17.don't need to worry about that, and we should draw a distinction here?
:06:18. > :06:21.It is complete madness. We live in a world controlled and policed by men
:06:22. > :06:26.with guns. Good Lord, how long are we going to have to endure this? I
:06:27. > :06:30.want to bring Jennie in here. I think in York work, you've gone out
:06:31. > :06:37.to war zones and spent time talking to soldiers. I wonder what your view
:06:38. > :06:42.is on this issue I'm afraid I find it clear cut. A crime - a heinous
:06:43. > :06:46.crime indeed - has been committed. I see no case for leniency. It is
:06:47. > :06:49.cold-blooded murder. He is saying in one instance that he thought the
:06:50. > :06:54.member of the Taliban was dead already, and yet he is suggesting
:06:55. > :06:58.administering first aid. It was a vicious, nasty murder and I think it
:06:59. > :07:02.should be treated as such I'm afraid. Nick? No, of course he's got
:07:03. > :07:08.to serve time. I've never suggested he shouldn't. But let's go back.
:07:09. > :07:12.Let's deal with this block, incredible bravery that he shows and
:07:13. > :07:16.the provocation, again it is no excuse, and I will watch my
:07:17. > :07:21.language, if it is true that there were limbs festooned on trees while
:07:22. > :07:27.on patrol, apologies to everybody, he was under extreme provocation. I
:07:28. > :07:31.can run through lists of people in courts now who ran over a small
:07:32. > :07:36.child, no insurance and served four months. A woman did roughly the same
:07:37. > :07:40.thing, I know this isn't premeditated murder, 8 months. Just
:07:41. > :07:44.this week the mother of baby B, I know it wasn't murder, allowing the
:07:45. > :07:50.torture of her child, came out after four years and is out shopping. Give
:07:51. > :07:56.me a break. These people get leniency, why doesn't the soldier?
:07:57. > :08:00.He shouldn't. As for your point, with due respect, every soldier is
:08:01. > :08:06.culpable. Absolutely. No circumstances? You want every
:08:07. > :08:12.soldier nicked? Away cannot draw a distinction between Marine A who
:08:13. > :08:17.shoots apparently... There is a massive distinction. We cannot and
:08:18. > :08:22.30 minutes earlier... He was in combat, being shot at. What are you
:08:23. > :08:27.meant to do? All people in combat being shot are murdered. There are
:08:28. > :08:30.chaplains who serve in the military and they can make a distinction
:08:31. > :08:35.between the duty of a soldier, which can include to kill, and the
:08:36. > :08:40.obligation to prisoners of war. You seem to have a more, would it be
:08:41. > :08:44.fair to say a pacifist attitude to the principle of war in general? Do
:08:45. > :08:48.human beings on this planet... We are just about to see Simon on
:08:49. > :08:51.television, do we want to keep sorting out our differences by
:08:52. > :08:55.killing each other? It is ludicrous, it is barbarous. To make a
:08:56. > :08:59.distinction that one act, that one act of a man with a Guardian in a
:09:00. > :09:06.field is any worse than hiding behind a wall and shooting... Could
:09:07. > :09:10.the of, my friend. In something like the Falklands, where people are
:09:11. > :09:17.invaded against their will, what do we do? We have to keep talking. Oh
:09:18. > :09:20.please! I don't want to get into a debate about diplomacy. This is a
:09:21. > :09:24.discussion about war situations. What would we feel if this was the
:09:25. > :09:30.other way around, if it had been Marine A lying there groaning and he
:09:31. > :09:34.was... They are doing it all the time. They are terrorists. Would we
:09:35. > :09:40.feel that the member of the Taliban who had executed in cold blood
:09:41. > :09:46.Marine A, would we feel that leniency should be shown to him? No,
:09:47. > :09:50.probably not. No. I rest my case. I want to bring in a military
:09:51. > :09:56.perspective here, and I'm delighted we are joined by Simon Weston, the
:09:57. > :09:58.Falklands veteran and former Welsh guard. Thank you for coming on
:09:59. > :10:01.Sunday Morning Live. What do you think of this case and whether
:10:02. > :10:05.leniency should be shown to a soldier in the position of Marine A?
:10:06. > :10:11.First of all I think we need to keep everything inville. I think we've
:10:12. > :10:15.got poles of opinion on the Pam. Someone who is very religious and
:10:16. > :10:20.believes we should pick up the pen and do nothing when somebody is
:10:21. > :10:23.killing people wantonly. Jennie is looking at it from the a very legal
:10:24. > :10:27.point of view, but unfortunately what we have to deal with is the
:10:28. > :10:31.reality as you've got in the middle. It's the simple case that these guys
:10:32. > :10:36.have been under mass provocation, but it is not just that moment, for
:10:37. > :10:39.the whole length of time from the moment they hit the ground they are
:10:40. > :10:42.seeing their own colleagues and friends butchered and murdered by
:10:43. > :10:46.the Taliban. The Taliban seem to be able to do what we want and we seem
:10:47. > :10:52.to have no recourse about it. It is not a case that one thing makes the
:10:53. > :10:56.other thing right. This gentleman who has clearly done wrong and
:10:57. > :11:00.admits he's done wrong, he should face justice, but the justice should
:11:01. > :11:05.be tempered with the realism of what this man has done for the last 16-17
:11:06. > :11:09.years of his life in all the different combat zones. He's risked
:11:10. > :11:12.his life continuously and led men all the time and taken
:11:13. > :11:16.responsibility for those which carries a huge burden as well. His
:11:17. > :11:20.duty of care to his men has been immense. We must not forget what
:11:21. > :11:25.he's done. The fact that this has let to this moment where he lost all
:11:26. > :11:29.his humanity. That's all I can think. He lost sense. He lost
:11:30. > :11:32.humanity. And he took somebody's life. With with he could have been
:11:33. > :11:36.saved or not wasn't relevant. It wasn't his job to take his life at
:11:37. > :11:40.that point. He was no longer a threat. But then we have to broaden
:11:41. > :11:44.out the whole perspective. We have men shooting men at two miles with a
:11:45. > :11:47.rifle. How do we though that person at the other end of the contact was
:11:48. > :11:53.actually a threat to those people at that point in time? But we let those
:11:54. > :11:58.people wander around with immunity and impunity. We use drones. We have
:11:59. > :12:02.to draw a distinction. War is not a pleasant thing. Not a friendly
:12:03. > :12:06.thing. It is going to see people do things that are very unpopular, very
:12:07. > :12:10.unpleasant. This guy is probably the nicest man you probably ever will
:12:11. > :12:14.meet walking the street. But he wasn't walking the street. He was in
:12:15. > :12:18.a war zone. He had spent hours under attack. They had to call in an air
:12:19. > :12:23.to bring that attack to a halt and then they went out looking for them.
:12:24. > :12:26.OK. Can I ask you to pause for a moment because we have another
:12:27. > :12:29.perspective from Frank from Cambridge. He's a barrister and a
:12:30. > :12:33.former military intelligence officer. You served in Iraq and I
:12:34. > :12:38.understand you've been a civilian adviser in Afghanistan. You may have
:12:39. > :12:42.heard Simon there saying we need to show leniency to people like Marine
:12:43. > :12:46.A. I think what we need to remember is that thousand thousands of our
:12:47. > :12:49.soldiers have found themselves in situations like that over the last
:12:50. > :12:55.decade, including people I served with on operations that I took part
:12:56. > :13:01.in, who managed not to murder their prisoners, who managed not to betray
:13:02. > :13:04.their calling in the world's finest armed service, the Royal Marines. I
:13:05. > :13:09.take what Simon said, or that part of it which I heard, about him
:13:10. > :13:14.having returned superb service, to have got to that point where he is a
:13:15. > :13:20.Sergeant in the Royal Marines, our finest, best-trained infantry, but
:13:21. > :13:23.he's betrayed that trust now. Whilst the circumstances of this murder,
:13:24. > :13:30.let's not forget that's what happened, these guys dragged this
:13:31. > :13:35.wounded and now prisoner to a place where decent soldiers couldn't see
:13:36. > :13:38.them, and then Marine A shot him pretty cold-bloodedly in the chest.
:13:39. > :13:42.That's murder. It is special circumstances, but we need not lose
:13:43. > :13:47.sight of the fact this is an out and out murder. It's a war crime. Simon,
:13:48. > :13:51.your response to that. Fist of all I never said he deserved leniency, I
:13:52. > :13:56.said he deserves justice. The justice shouldn't be meted out by
:13:57. > :14:02.public and popular opinion. I accept what the barrister is saying, but
:14:03. > :14:02.ultimately how does he know that this is the
:14:03. > :14:12.does he know, because he's not there with everybody. We have to take into
:14:13. > :14:14.account that we don't ever get to bring the Taliban to justice. They
:14:15. > :14:16.never get to see the justice that should be meted on them. As a Scots
:14:17. > :14:23.soldier should be meted on them. As a Scots
:14:24. > :14:25.off and was found butchered and shot to death many, many times. The fact
:14:26. > :14:31.of the matter is this is what happens to decent people who go to
:14:32. > :14:36.conflict. Sometimes they snap. Let me put that to Frank.
:14:37. > :14:37.conflict. Sometimes they snap. Let concern, that the enemy they are up
:14:38. > :14:44.against not following the Geneva convention and the stresses on
:14:45. > :14:49.theseles are unique. I was a soldier, I've done four tours of
:14:50. > :14:50.theseles are unique. I was a operations in pretty front line
:14:51. > :14:55.conditions, including Iraq and Bosnia. But however I am a
:14:56. > :14:59.barrister. One doesn't need to be a barrister or indeed a lawyer to
:15:00. > :15:03.understand that whilst they may not be compliant with the Geneva
:15:04. > :15:06.conventions, we certainly are. This is something that's drummed into
:15:07. > :15:13.soldiers every year, every year soldiers are instructed, they have
:15:14. > :15:18.to be what's called MATS, annual training, that the law of armed on
:15:19. > :15:23.theflect a#34r50is to them -- applies to them whatever. It is not
:15:24. > :15:27.palatable what the Taliban do to our soldiers on the rare occasions they
:15:28. > :15:39.capture them. It is disgusting, but we cannot judge ourselves by their
:15:40. > :15:44.standards. Nick, what is your view of two very different military
:15:45. > :15:49.arguments. There is no question that this man has to serve time. I am
:15:50. > :15:59.arguing that he is deserving of the same leniency that we see exhibit to
:16:00. > :16:02.in our courts almost every single day. The sort of leniency that we
:16:03. > :16:09.apply to others. Just because we believe this man should behave to a
:16:10. > :16:12.higher bar - and he should - he is deserving of the leniency, and that
:16:13. > :16:19.this is the point I am making. Jennie Bond. I feel that these
:16:20. > :16:23.extending renting circumstances are being a bit exaggerated. They are
:16:24. > :16:28.saying that maybe he snapped under the strain of war. There is no sign
:16:29. > :16:32.in the evidence I have heard of him actually snapping. There was a
:16:33. > :16:36.discussion about what they should do with this man, where they should
:16:37. > :16:42.shoot him and whether they should shoot him, and a certain glee in
:16:43. > :16:47.carrying out this murder, it seems. There was laughter, it seemed. I
:16:48. > :16:54.don't think there was glee. It was grim resolution. It is a tragedy. It
:16:55. > :16:57.is a tragedy for that man and for his family. How often, how many more
:16:58. > :17:03.years are we going to sit here talking about this type of tragedy?
:17:04. > :17:08.As long as we normalise war within a society, I think that is the crime,
:17:09. > :17:14.that war is actually normalised. It is barbaric, and we should do far
:17:15. > :17:18.better at stopping it. Simon, I am struck by the fact that a number of
:17:19. > :17:22.senior military figures in the MoD have come out and said that no
:17:23. > :17:30.leniency should be shown. What is your view on that? Justice has to be
:17:31. > :17:34.justice. He is guilty, no doubt about that, but we have to temper
:17:35. > :17:39.everything with the realism of what he does. The barrister can say that
:17:40. > :17:44.they train people all the time, but he knows that people do do things
:17:45. > :17:50.that are beyond the pale. In this case, Simon, do you think you should
:17:51. > :17:54.serve a life sentence? Or should he be given, in his sentencing,
:17:55. > :17:59.something that reflects the points you make? It should reflect the
:18:00. > :18:02.points that I and the gentleman in the middle have made. The fact that
:18:03. > :18:07.this chap has been through what he has been through, he's done what
:18:08. > :18:11.he's done. But there are murderers in this country who do much worse
:18:12. > :18:16.things, and they get much lighter sentences. If we are going to apply
:18:17. > :18:20.civilian law to the military, we are getting it badly, badly wrong. In
:18:21. > :18:26.your view, what would be a fair sentence? I am not a legal person. I
:18:27. > :18:29.would not dare to suggest. But a life sentence on somebody who has
:18:30. > :18:35.done incredible service to his country, I think that would be a
:18:36. > :18:40.huge crime in itself. I was wondering how far a case like this
:18:41. > :18:45.is isolated. In the military, do they suspect there was a lot more?
:18:46. > :18:49.In that sense, was it that he was caught and many others haven't, and
:18:50. > :18:57.that is part of the reason there is our knees in him taking a life
:18:58. > :19:02.sentence? As I said, some 90% of soldiers can manage to take
:19:03. > :19:07.prisoners, bring them to first aid, transport them to hospital, without
:19:08. > :19:10.shooting them. That is the common experience. However, there are
:19:11. > :19:14.isolated occasions where this doesn't happen. I'm afraid this
:19:15. > :19:18.probably isn't the meantime this has happened, which is one reason why we
:19:19. > :19:23.need to show we cannot accept this type of behaviour in the Royal
:19:24. > :19:28.Marines or in British Army soldiers, or in air force airmen. This may not
:19:29. > :19:32.be isolated. I suspect that down the road, we will come to more cases
:19:33. > :19:39.like this. We need to show right now that this is not something we can
:19:40. > :19:44.accept. With respect, it is not as if it is an epidemic. I didn't say
:19:45. > :19:51.that. I said there are isolated cases. There were no epidemics of
:19:52. > :19:56.war crimes in British forces. This guy has been nailed to the cross
:19:57. > :20:02.unjustly. There is nothing unjust about being convicted for murder.
:20:03. > :20:11.Where you take your victim out of the battlefield. I agree, but not
:20:12. > :20:15.life. Peter, what is your view. The reputation of the army, it is said,
:20:16. > :20:20.is affected in this case. We shouldn't be questioning what the
:20:21. > :20:27.Army is doing in Afghanistan because the circumstances is so particular.
:20:28. > :20:38.I think we have to look at how we define bravery.
:20:39. > :20:38.I think we have to look at how we boundaries are in terms of where we
:20:39. > :20:42.actually use weapons. It is never going to be clear-cut, because you
:20:43. > :20:46.are in a life-and-death situation all the time. That is going to
:20:47. > :20:51.clearly affect someone's judgement. But I would say that murder is
:20:52. > :20:57.murder, whether it is premeditated or whether it happens to be on the
:20:58. > :21:01.battlefield. It is important that we recognise that our men, our
:21:02. > :21:05.soldiers, are better than this. They are better than the Taliban. Just
:21:06. > :21:10.because bits of bodies strewn in trees does not mean we should debase
:21:11. > :21:14.ourselves to their level. The mandatory life sentences laid down,
:21:15. > :21:21.and I think that is what it should be - with parole, obviously. I want
:21:22. > :21:23.the last word to go to Simon Weston, particularly on the reputation of
:21:24. > :21:29.the military and how it might be affected in this case. That is the
:21:30. > :21:33.big worry. We are doing all this in such a public forum. It should never
:21:34. > :21:38.be hidden away from truth or justice, but I think we have
:21:39. > :21:44.probably betrayed the Armed Forces to a degree, allowing it to be such
:21:45. > :21:48.a public debate. I don't think the media should ever have been given
:21:49. > :21:52.access to all this, because I think everything gets blown out of
:21:53. > :21:59.proportion. Look to justice system will deal with this gentleman in the
:22:00. > :22:02.way it is appropriate. He has committed murder. Nobody is saying
:22:03. > :22:06.he should be let off, but it should be done in a military way, away from
:22:07. > :22:13.everyone else, like the Americans do. Thank you so much. I just have
:22:14. > :22:17.two read some of the view comments from home on this. Rob says, I think
:22:18. > :22:24.the soldiers should be shown leniency. We are at war, and he did
:22:25. > :22:28.his own job. Kirsty says, if you acted illegally, you should be
:22:29. > :22:33.punished. Being a soldier has no bearing on it. Alan says, there
:22:34. > :22:37.should be no leniency for soldiers. They should be held to the highest
:22:38. > :22:42.standards, considering the power they wield. Thank you for your
:22:43. > :22:48.contributions on that. Our boat on this is open. The question is,
:22:49. > :22:53.should there be leniency for soldiers who commit crimes in
:22:54. > :23:02.conflict? Text the word VOTE followed by YES or NO to 81771. You
:23:03. > :23:05.have around 20 minutes. Still to come on Sunday morning live - Ann
:23:06. > :23:13.Widdecombe hits out at me-generation. We seem to say these
:23:14. > :23:23.days, why not? Why shouldn't I? Rather than, what is the value of
:23:24. > :23:28.it? This week, news around the world has
:23:29. > :23:32.been dominated by the appalling aftermath of the typhoon which hit
:23:33. > :23:37.the Philippines. The death toll from the disaster now stands at 3600.
:23:38. > :23:45.Half a million people have been made homeless. A worldwide aid effort is
:23:46. > :23:49.under way, with the British government donating ?50 million as
:23:50. > :23:54.well military help. More money has been donated by the public. People
:23:55. > :23:58.have given a lot of money, at a time where things are tough here at home,
:23:59. > :24:04.and in the same week as Children In Need. It has been an interesting
:24:05. > :24:10.response, hasn't it? It has been a great response. All of us can always
:24:11. > :24:18.do much more, but ?33 million and climbing is wonderful. Let's see if
:24:19. > :24:21.we can double that. Jennie Bond, disasters on this scale can make
:24:22. > :24:25.people feel helpless, because they happen again, and it seems
:24:26. > :24:33.impossible to change things. How have you viewed the reaction? I
:24:34. > :24:37.think everyone wants to give and keep on giving because the images
:24:38. > :24:44.keep coming. It is a dreadful situation. I think it shakes
:24:45. > :24:50.people's faith in God, I would have thought. It certainly makes me
:24:51. > :24:53.question how there could be a god, and how he could possibly be
:24:54. > :24:57.omnipotent if he allows such terrible disasters to keep on
:24:58. > :25:04.coming. It does seem an obvious question. If anyone of us believe
:25:05. > :25:10.that we have an intrinsic right to our next breath, we are deluding
:25:11. > :25:14.ourselves. We live on and on stable planet with unstable weather
:25:15. > :25:19.systems. We seem to think it is fine to walk around with guns to sort out
:25:20. > :25:22.our issues. We live in a dangerous place. If we want to accept the
:25:23. > :25:27.liberty of freedom, we have to accept that these are the conditions
:25:28. > :25:35.we live in. To blame God for a typhoon, or for other disasters... I
:25:36. > :25:45.thought he was in control. I thought he was all powerful. He is meant to
:25:46. > :25:49.be, isn't he? Of course he isn't! I have faith, and I think something
:25:50. > :25:54.like this is totally beyond control of the Lord or a God. It happens
:25:55. > :26:02.because the earth shifts on its access. Well I've learnt something!
:26:03. > :26:06.We have free choice. Something like this is driven by the wind and the
:26:07. > :26:11.weather, and the moon and the seas, and to suggest that God could
:26:12. > :26:17.control it at the very idea that God is in control might suit certain
:26:18. > :26:23.elements of the church, but if he is in control, there is no freedom. I
:26:24. > :26:27.would far rather be free, accept things the risks that come with that
:26:28. > :26:32.in an adult way, rather than saying that it is all up to somebody else.
:26:33. > :26:37.When you talk about man-made control, there has been a debate
:26:38. > :26:41.about the possible impact of climate change, and there is a scientist at
:26:42. > :26:46.the UN whose family was in one of the affected islands, and who was
:26:47. > :26:49.crying and pleading for the developed world to think more
:26:50. > :26:53.seriously how they can act to prevent these things. This is an
:26:54. > :27:00.infrastructure disaster, where you can't get a din. It is extremely
:27:01. > :27:07.difficult to get that aid in. I used saying that we are guilty for
:27:08. > :27:12.creating this? -- are you saying? God has immediately been left off
:27:13. > :27:17.the book, because he is the one raping the Earth's supplies, or
:27:18. > :27:26.driving cars all over America and burning all that fuel. This is
:27:27. > :27:33.man's decision. It is man's choice to do it. As an environmental
:27:34. > :27:37.campaigner, do you have a view that humans should be doing more to
:27:38. > :27:44.prevent the disastrous after-effect of a natural disaster? It is very
:27:45. > :27:48.difficult. Take the fracking debate. We are promised endless energy for
:27:49. > :27:53.50 years, but it is a fossil fuel. No one seems to be mentioning that.
:27:54. > :28:00.If we keep on burning fossil fuels, we know pretty much that climate
:28:01. > :28:12.change is as a result of human activity. Let's not dance around
:28:13. > :28:16.this. We cannot have it both ways. We cannot keep burning fossil fuels,
:28:17. > :28:21.and then say that it is all right to continue to do so, and yes, there
:28:22. > :28:29.will be the odd storm. We've just got to wake up. We are screwing the
:28:30. > :28:33.planet. An alternative view might be that these an actual disasters, and
:28:34. > :28:39.all we can do is help clean up afterwards. That is the sad truth of
:28:40. > :28:44.it. I was just making the point that, if I had a faith, which I
:28:45. > :28:50.don't, it would have been severely shaken by witnessing that
:28:51. > :28:52.unnecessary suffering. I think it is fantastic that the British
:28:53. > :28:58.government have put up so much money, more than America, and that,
:28:59. > :29:04.to me, is what the aid budget should be all about, not sending money to
:29:05. > :29:10.India. This is what foreign aid is all about, and credit to the
:29:11. > :29:16.government for that. Thank you. Prince Charles celebrated his 65th
:29:17. > :29:21.birthday this week. He was in Sri Lanka representing the Queen at the
:29:22. > :29:25.Commonwealth Summit. He also spoke up about rural Britain. Acting as
:29:26. > :29:32.guest editor of the magazine Country Life, he wrote, Country Life has to
:29:33. > :29:40.be sustained. Without it, we would be all the poorer. The countryside
:29:41. > :29:41.is also close to reference Peter Owen-Jones' heart. This is his
:29:42. > :30:01.Sunday stand. Over the last 50 years, the
:30:02. > :30:05.countryside is fast becoming a forgotten land, and really that fate
:30:06. > :30:16.should concern us all, because it is the countryside that produces our
:30:17. > :30:21.food and increasingly our energy. Each time in the countryside when a
:30:22. > :30:26.village shop shuts, when the bus service is run down, when a pub
:30:27. > :30:31.closes, and currently there are about three closing every week, what
:30:32. > :30:34.is lost at that point is a point of contact. And it is contact that
:30:35. > :30:54.forms the base of community. Hello boys. Aren't you lovely?
:30:55. > :30:58.Country life is being socially and culturally undermined for really two
:30:59. > :31:02.connected reasons. The first is that most of the available cash being
:31:03. > :31:08.spent on the Government is being spent to enhance the lives of those
:31:09. > :31:13.who live in cities. HS2 and Crossrail just being a couple of
:31:14. > :31:17.examples. Secondly, it is becoming increasingly clear that decisions
:31:18. > :31:23.taken affecting the countryside are being made by an urban political and
:31:24. > :31:34.media elite. Most of whom would not be able to name ten British
:31:35. > :31:39.butterflies. This country is one community of citizens, and we need
:31:40. > :31:47.to start to treat each other, urban and rural, equally. I love the
:31:48. > :31:54.cities in this country. They are fast becoming citadels of glass and
:31:55. > :32:00.steel, centres for energy and imagination. But what we really need
:32:01. > :32:05.is a new cultural vision for the countryside. One that we can all
:32:06. > :32:10.share in creating a future for the land. To harness some of the
:32:11. > :32:20.imagination and energy that has created our cities. And express it
:32:21. > :32:23.on the land that actually sustains. The views of Peter Owen-Jones
:32:24. > :32:28.accompanied by the lovely views of his village. Apparently the cows
:32:29. > :32:33.were so happy that they wouldn't even moo while the camera crew was
:32:34. > :32:42.there. Does he have a point? Nick? I am a
:32:43. > :32:47.townie and I want to live there. Property price -- property there is
:32:48. > :32:51.beautiful. The reason that cities attract all the cash is that all the
:32:52. > :32:54.people live there. It is the cities that are driving the economy.
:32:55. > :32:59.London, the city that I have a radio show in... All the people do not
:33:00. > :33:03.live there. The vast majority of people do live there. It is the
:33:04. > :33:09.economic powerhouse that drives country. H 2 knot withstanding, you
:33:10. > :33:14.have to look after where people go to work all the time. People work in
:33:15. > :33:20.the country. I know, but in vast numbers and in the factories and
:33:21. > :33:26.offices. Of course they work in the country, damn hard. 52% less in the
:33:27. > :33:29.countryside than in the cities. This is just basically unjust. I want to
:33:30. > :33:34.bring in Jennie here, because you live in the country now but have
:33:35. > :33:42.lived this the city. I spent 30 years living in London and the last
:33:43. > :33:45.10 living in a very remote part of Devon. The quality of life is a lot
:33:46. > :33:49.better in the country. But this figure that Peter mentioned is
:33:50. > :33:54.appalling, because we do need money in the countryside. We do need the
:33:55. > :33:59.basic infrastructure. In my village there is no public transport, so as
:34:00. > :34:04.we grow older, and if we cannot drive, we are stuck. The norrest
:34:05. > :34:07.shop is four miles away. We need that support and resource.
:34:08. > :34:12.Particularly because Prince Charles has come out as a champion of the
:34:13. > :34:17.countryside, and it was in Country Life, which if you look at that
:34:18. > :34:20.magazine it doesn't imply that the countryside is full of poverty. I
:34:21. > :34:24.wonder if people think the countryside is run by and for rich
:34:25. > :34:31.down-sizers or people with second homes. Don't get me started on
:34:32. > :34:36.second homes. Bring it all up. With second homes there should be a real
:34:37. > :34:42.disincentive to have a second home. People should be penalised until
:34:43. > :34:46.they decide to live there. Why? Because they are killing the
:34:47. > :34:49.communities. Do we live in North Korea now? Because you've done well
:34:50. > :34:54.and you have a bit of cash and you want to buy a place in the Cotswolds
:34:55. > :34:59.or Norfolk... You can do that but you have to pay a huge amount of
:35:00. > :35:04.money for it in my view, because it is killing our country life. I'm
:35:05. > :35:07.writing a book of walks at the moment and I'm spending a lot of
:35:08. > :35:10.time tramping around the countryside. If you go to the
:35:11. > :35:15.villages in the South West, all the hot beauty spots, the Lakes, the
:35:16. > :35:18.Pembrokeshire coast, some of these villages have completely died
:35:19. > :35:21.because of people buying second homes in what they consider to be
:35:22. > :35:25.pretty places. It means that people aren't there to actually keep the
:35:26. > :35:30.pub going, the school and the village shop going. Whole villages
:35:31. > :35:36.have been decimated by second homes. What about form -- farmers? Prince
:35:37. > :35:40.Charles argument is that we don't value them, that it is not
:35:41. > :35:46.affordable for people to keep that life going. Some hill farmers earn
:35:47. > :35:50.?8,000 a year and yet their produce goes to supermarkets and the
:35:51. > :35:56.retailers make a huge amount of profit on the pittance that they are
:35:57. > :36:00.earning. What's your view about how farmers view about how the City
:36:01. > :36:05.value things that they grow and provide? There is increasing
:36:06. > :36:09.polarisation between the countryside and the urban areas. The countryside
:36:10. > :36:13.isn't just a postcard which people living in towns pass through to get
:36:14. > :36:17.to where they are going. It is where people live, work and raise their
:36:18. > :36:23.families. It's a cultural problem. Most of our British culture is
:36:24. > :36:28.channelled through the urban channels. We hear very little about
:36:29. > :36:33.what's actually going on culturally in the countryside. It has become a
:36:34. > :36:38.forgotten land. Prince Charles is worried about hill farmers earning 8
:36:39. > :36:44.grand? What about people who get up tomorrow and clean hospital floors
:36:45. > :36:48.in London and Birmingham and Sheffield earning ?11,000 what about
:36:49. > :36:56.them? Sadly when you are ill, and may it never happen to you, you have
:36:57. > :37:00.to go to a big city. We can't get broadband because there aren't
:37:01. > :37:03.enough people living there, and that's largely because of the second
:37:04. > :37:07.homes. Because we live in a remote part of the country, where we need
:37:08. > :37:11.to communication more than ever, we are not allowed to have it. I want
:37:12. > :37:17.to bring in another townie to back you up, Nick. Ed joins us presumably
:37:18. > :37:21.from your urban hot spot with your broadband. Are you an arrogant
:37:22. > :37:26.townie who doesn't appreciate what farmers do for you to stock your
:37:27. > :37:30.supermarket? I certainly couldn't name ten butterflies, so I feel
:37:31. > :37:36.guilty about that. I love the countryside. I just, I think there
:37:37. > :37:39.is no accident that this trend continues of people moving to towns
:37:40. > :37:44.and out of the countryside. Nobody forces people to sell their homes to
:37:45. > :37:48.second homeowners. They choose to because they want a new life or want
:37:49. > :37:52.more money. It is part of the trends that have been going on for
:37:53. > :37:55.thousands of years that people prefer to live in the cities than
:37:56. > :37:59.the countryside. What about people who want to preserve a kind of life
:38:00. > :38:03.that they feel is under threat because the City doesn't understand
:38:04. > :38:08.them? They have to find a way to make it work. I don't think anyone
:38:09. > :38:12.is entitled to any sort of life really. Help them where they can,
:38:13. > :38:17.but also if their life isn't sustainable any more I don't see why
:38:18. > :38:24.everyone else should prop them up. Peter, why should everyone prop it
:38:25. > :38:27.up? We need to look at what sustain ability is. If you are living in
:38:28. > :38:31.London or any of the great cities you can only eat because of what's
:38:32. > :38:35.produced in the countryside. Is the city life in that sense sustainable?
:38:36. > :38:39.People living in cities are living the most unsustainable lifestyles,
:38:40. > :38:45.basically fed off the back of the people living in the country. I
:38:46. > :38:50.bought a pack of chicken breasts in a supermarket the other day and they
:38:51. > :38:54.were from Holland. The apples I bought were from Africa or New
:38:55. > :38:58.Zealand. Of course I value what farmers do. Let's be honest, there
:38:59. > :39:05.is a lot of imported food in Britain, Peter. That's a huge
:39:06. > :39:09.problem our farmers. They don't have enough chicken presumably, or
:39:10. > :39:13.orchards. No, the plight of the countryside is largely economic. But
:39:14. > :39:20.if we are importing cheaper food. We live under a capitalist system. And
:39:21. > :39:25.that's wrong as well is it? So the military... Not at all, that's not
:39:26. > :39:30.wrong, it is just the way it is. I find it strange that you are saying
:39:31. > :39:36.you bought chicken breasts from poll land. Only because I noted on the
:39:37. > :39:41.label, and I thought what a shape. I would have loved them to come from
:39:42. > :39:45.Suffolk or somewhere. Why didn't you look harder? I only had a certain
:39:46. > :39:50.amount of time, Jennie! We know there is an issue about whether the
:39:51. > :39:53.economic system is skewed against farmers. What about the issue of
:39:54. > :39:59.attitudes in the country? I have heard it said by a lot of people
:40:00. > :40:02.that there can be hostility to multicultural Britain in villages
:40:03. > :40:04.that there can be hostility to and people who've met hostility when
:40:05. > :40:09.they've gone there. Is that part of the reason why people don't value
:40:10. > :40:12.the countryside? They think the people who live
:40:13. > :40:16.the countryside? They think the attitudes? They do think we are a
:40:17. > :40:25.lot of country oiss I'm sure. My mum lives
:40:26. > :40:26.lot of country oiss I'm sure. My mum true. It is not fair at all. I'm now
:40:27. > :40:30.on your side. I hate this word backward, but it doesn't help that
:40:31. > :40:34.there is only one bus a day out of the village. No bus at all.
:40:35. > :40:37.there is only one bus a day out of imagine that with no public
:40:38. > :40:41.transport? The idea of attitudes perhaps being conservative with a
:40:42. > :40:49.small c and hostile to change. I don't think that's the case. I think
:40:50. > :40:51.the people living in the countryside, they get the same media
:40:52. > :40:56.as everybody else, so are aware of the same issues. The very idea that
:40:57. > :40:58.people are in anyway more racist in the countryside, I find that
:40:59. > :41:03.absolutely appalling. The great danger is that townies, and I don't,
:41:04. > :41:08.treat the countryside as some giant theme park. That would be really
:41:09. > :41:10.scary for folk. In many ways that's how the media treats the
:41:11. > :41:15.countryside, as a giant theme park. Let me read a few comments from
:41:16. > :41:20.people at home. Paul says, is I wonder what percentage of people in
:41:21. > :41:27.the country would be pleased if town folk moved in?
:41:28. > :41:34.-- Ben says e exploiting it to a degree that's not sustainable. Thank
:41:35. > :41:42.you all. You've been voting on the question.
:41:43. > :41:46.. Should there be leniency shown to soldier commit crimes in conflict.
:41:47. > :41:53.The vote is closing down. We'll discuss the result at the end of the
:41:54. > :41:57.show. The former Government Minister, Ann
:41:58. > :42:02.Widdecombe, is not what you would normally consider the shy and
:42:03. > :42:07.retiring type. She sounded off as a Conservative MP, became one of the
:42:08. > :42:12.nation's favourites dancers, and has appeared in panto and opera. She
:42:13. > :42:17.says the world has become too self centred, and attacks what she calls
:42:18. > :42:21.me generation. Her new book, Sackcloth And Ashes, is devoted to
:42:22. > :42:27.penance and penitence, which she says would do all of us more good.
:42:28. > :42:30.Sangita Myska went to meet her. You concentrate quite a bit of the book
:42:31. > :42:34.talking about the me, me, me generation. Yes. What do you mean by
:42:35. > :42:43.that and how, in your opinion, have we come to that stage? We live an
:42:44. > :42:47.extremely self absorbed materialistic Sebly obsessed me
:42:48. > :42:50.society. There's lots of manifestations of that, the death of
:42:51. > :42:55.shame for example, which I think is a very widely observed one. And the
:42:56. > :43:02.belief of some young girls that you can be a celebrity overnight. We
:43:03. > :43:08.have a society which encourage that sort of ambition instead of internal
:43:09. > :43:13.reflection. Instead of pondering on what is the meaning of life, what is
:43:14. > :43:18.one's role, what can we do, what do we make of the world around us?
:43:19. > :43:23.There's a much greater obsession with self, with shopping. With
:43:24. > :43:29.falling off pavements on a Friday night. With longing to be the person
:43:30. > :43:36.who is the overnight success on a talent show. There's a desire for
:43:37. > :43:39.the instantaneous gratification. To what extent do you think you've
:43:40. > :43:48.benefitted from the me, me, me culture? I don't think I've ever
:43:49. > :43:53.regarded myself as the centre of anything. Quite inevitably when I
:43:54. > :43:57.did something like Strictly Come Dancing and it became the completely
:43:58. > :44:01.unexpected sensation of that season, and nobody would have predicted. I
:44:02. > :44:06.thought I would be on there for three weeks. I would be a terrible
:44:07. > :44:09.liar if I said I didn't enjoy that and didn't get massive benefit from
:44:10. > :44:13.it, as there were loads of spin-offs from it afterwards. And I certainly
:44:14. > :44:20.did. But on the other hand, that was a few months of my life. Actually at
:44:21. > :44:26.the time I was in politics, as any politician will tell you, it is one
:44:27. > :44:32.long period of trying to put things right. You may not alls succeed, for
:44:33. > :44:37.individual constituents, for national institutions. For whatever
:44:38. > :44:50.it may be. Your whole life is gathered to other people's demands.
:44:51. > :44:56.You say in the book that penance has become full of negative association.
:44:57. > :45:01.Is that render it meaningless in today's society? I do think it is
:45:02. > :45:07.meaningless, but it is associated with negatives. For example, if you
:45:08. > :45:12.take Lent. It is giving up. People think that it is negative. You are
:45:13. > :45:17.doing something hard in giving up. But what it is aimed at, through the
:45:18. > :45:21.reflection you produce, is that you will lead a better life. It doesn't
:45:22. > :45:27.mean that you are going to live -- give up chocolate forevermore, but
:45:28. > :45:33.rather than that, you have reflected the reasons for your penance, and
:45:34. > :45:36.you want to lead a better life. That is an unmistakable result of
:45:37. > :45:43.penance. If it isn't, what is the point? You also touch on sacrifice
:45:44. > :45:48.and fortitude, and suggest that it has gone out of fashion. Many people
:45:49. > :45:53.watching this programme may have been through real hardship,
:45:54. > :46:01.particularly recently because of the economic downturn, and they might
:46:02. > :46:04.take offence at this? I haven't said that there is no such thing as
:46:05. > :46:10.misfortune in this world, clearly there is. Take the Philippines, for
:46:11. > :46:15.example. I haven't said there isn't suffering. What I have said is that
:46:16. > :46:18.we have lost a great wheel of the concept of fortitude, by which you
:46:19. > :46:25.worked through the problem. You didn't seek an instant solution. You
:46:26. > :46:30.didn't ditch a marriage after a year. You didn't go out and buy
:46:31. > :46:35.absolutely everything in the world on credit because you didn't want to
:46:36. > :46:40.go through saving up for it. What role has penance played in your life
:46:41. > :46:50.as a committed Christian? I have always done an annual penance, which
:46:51. > :46:56.I always grown about, and am always delighted when it is over, but I
:46:57. > :46:59.find it is very beneficial. For the Christian, there is an almost daily
:47:00. > :47:06.penance, because your daily consciousness, you are daily saying
:47:07. > :47:12.sorry to God, that is your act of contrition, and you are daily making
:47:13. > :47:17.up for it in some way. Our penance is tend to be private now, though.
:47:18. > :47:23.One of the things you did in the book, it struck me, is provide a
:47:24. > :47:28.pathway to penance. Repentance is one of the first steps you need to
:47:29. > :47:34.take. Do you have any regrets? Do you have anything that you wish you
:47:35. > :47:39.had said sorry for, or anything you have actually repented? Anything I
:47:40. > :47:43.have actually repented! Come on! Christianity is a daily act of
:47:44. > :47:49.repentance. If you just lose your temper, you must repent. We all do
:47:50. > :47:53.that. If you are asking me if there is anything of a huge order of
:47:54. > :48:00.magnitude that the world would consider a huge order of magnitude -
:48:01. > :48:05.if that is what you are asking me, I am sorry to disappoint you and the
:48:06. > :48:09.tabloids, but the answer is no. Thank you very much for talking to
:48:10. > :48:13.Sunday Morning Live. Ann Widdecombe on doing the right
:48:14. > :48:18.thing and the wrong thing. Let us know if you agree or disagree. There
:48:19. > :48:28.was no mention of the Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz moment on come
:48:29. > :48:36.dancing! -- on Strictly. What is your idea of penance? It is a very
:48:37. > :48:41.old-fashioned idea. I don't think my daughter would begin to understand
:48:42. > :48:44.it. I agree with her on this self-centred idea of celebrity, but
:48:45. > :48:50.penance and repentance, it seems to me, in itself is rather
:48:51. > :48:54.self-centred, in that you are pending so that you can get to
:48:55. > :49:01.heaven. You are talking to this the couple priest. We have a vicar here
:49:02. > :49:06.who is shaking his head! I have never done confession. Apparently,
:49:07. > :49:11.you don't look at them face-to-face. Why not? You should look someone in
:49:12. > :49:15.the eyes and say, I'm sorry. You shouldn't be looking at a vicar and
:49:16. > :49:22.saying sorry, you should be going to the person against whom you have
:49:23. > :49:27.transgressed. Peter. Penance is self-centred. It is an interesting
:49:28. > :49:32.thesis. When penance is self-centred, and when one is doing
:49:33. > :49:37.it to get to heaven, one is to losing oneself that this is in any
:49:38. > :49:41.way possible. The great thing about penance... I agree with Ann
:49:42. > :49:50.Widdecombe. I find that difficult to say! At I do. -- but I do. The type
:49:51. > :50:00.of society that has been created over my lifetime - I am 55 - is
:50:01. > :50:05.pretty ugly in places. We all need to say... I find it interesting that
:50:06. > :50:10.we are living in a society where the idea of spiritual growth, taking
:50:11. > :50:16.spiritual responsibility, is gaining the meant rather than losing it. But
:50:17. > :50:25.is it done in a self-centred way? I do think it is. All this talk of
:50:26. > :50:30.personal development... Ann Widdecombe is saying that we should
:50:31. > :50:37.turn the clock back to a sense of shame. I am a massive fan of Ann
:50:38. > :50:41.Widdecombe. A good question from the interviewer, who suggested that Ann
:50:42. > :50:49.Widdecombe had benefited from Strictly. When she highlighted
:50:50. > :50:56.issues such as... I didn't know you could have an abortion in your
:50:57. > :50:59.lunchtime! Without doubt, we are talking about the fact that a young
:51:00. > :51:03.boy is going to become famous because he is going to become a
:51:04. > :51:09.football player. Or a young girl thinks she is going to become famous
:51:10. > :51:14.because she becomes a celebrity. The idea that one should be ashamed to
:51:15. > :51:18.have left a marriage. These are things that were stigmatised until
:51:19. > :51:23.incredibly recently. We want to turn the clock back on that? I think that
:51:24. > :51:27.if you give a year into something you have gone into with your eyes
:51:28. > :51:32.open, that is a fair point. If you trade and marriage in over a year,
:51:33. > :51:36.that is not a long time. What about the idea that this moral character
:51:37. > :51:41.has been eroded, that people don't get married before they have
:51:42. > :51:44.children. I don't think that the moral character of the country has
:51:45. > :51:49.been eroded because people get married before they have children. I
:51:50. > :51:53.think it is because we lack a sense of holistic shame. We really lacked
:51:54. > :51:58.any future, because we are all so busy getting stuff and buying stuff
:51:59. > :52:05.and doing exactly what we please. I don't get what we have to be ashamed
:52:06. > :52:08.of? We have just seen a whole thing on the Philippines and the
:52:09. > :52:12.possibility that that has been caused by global warming. I don't
:52:13. > :52:17.see any change in behaviour in any way from our advanced industrial
:52:18. > :52:21.culture to stop that. I think that penance is time to reflect. It is
:52:22. > :52:28.time to actually learn from what is actually making you feel ashamed. I
:52:29. > :52:32.think that is a good thing. Ann Widdecombe gives an example of John
:52:33. > :52:37.Profumo, the politician who was disgraced in a sex scandal in the
:52:38. > :52:41.early 60s, who dedicated his life to charity work. We have seen a lot of
:52:42. > :52:46.political scandals in recent years, and it is not long before they are
:52:47. > :52:49.back on the telly. Is that what she is getting at? Shame in the sense of
:52:50. > :52:54.needing to rethink where you went wrong and what you should do as a
:52:55. > :52:57.consequence? Yes, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is
:52:58. > :53:01.nothing wrong with being reflective on where we are going and the
:53:02. > :53:06.spiritual consequence. But I think she takes things to a bit of an
:53:07. > :53:10.extreme. This whole idea of penance is something that is quite foreign
:53:11. > :53:15.to me. I think it is a beautiful thing, and we have lost it in our
:53:16. > :53:18.society. I think the idea that we could do better, not in terms of
:53:19. > :53:23.making more money or being more attractive, but in terms of being
:53:24. > :53:28.more compassionate and loving others. I think the penance is
:53:29. > :53:33.actually stepping back and saying, I really didn't do that very well.
:53:34. > :53:39.Isn't it more than that? Otherwise it is just you reflecting on
:53:40. > :53:43.yourself. Is it about going out and performing some act of community?
:53:44. > :53:49.Lots of churches in America, where members of their congregation commit
:53:50. > :53:54.adultery, they make them go and stand in the road with a big
:53:55. > :53:59.placard. I am not advocating that, because I think that is demeaning,
:54:00. > :54:03.but I am advocating self reflection, and if you happen to believe in God,
:54:04. > :54:11.if you happen to believe in a divine force, that might inform it. As a
:54:12. > :54:15.society, and we can see this in our politics, we lack any real sense of
:54:16. > :54:21.time to reflect, time to actually garner what we feel and move
:54:22. > :54:26.forward. If you ever have done anything that has inconvenienced or
:54:27. > :54:30.hurt someone, how do you make amends for that? I hoped I would go up to
:54:31. > :54:38.them and say directly, I have hurt you... But you are busy woman. How
:54:39. > :54:45.do you have time? I have never understood, and I think it is rather
:54:46. > :54:49.counter-productive, this idea that you confess your sins as a total --
:54:50. > :54:55.two at total stranger. And you are forgiven. What would be penance for
:54:56. > :55:01.you, Nick, if you could think of the situation that you would have liked
:55:02. > :55:05.to do better on? In a perfect world, I would like to do exactly, but
:55:06. > :55:08.sometimes you don't or can't, because the relationship has been
:55:09. > :55:12.fractured. I would like to think that I would show some sort of
:55:13. > :55:20.repentance in the eyes of the Lord. To go off and do something else in
:55:21. > :55:23.the community? Absolutely. Our justice system still has an idea of
:55:24. > :55:28.penance about it. I don't happen to think it is a good idea to lock men
:55:29. > :55:35.and women up, and less they are particularly dangerous to society,
:55:36. > :55:40.but I think that if we were more creative as a society, about how
:55:41. > :55:44.people were rehabilitated, people could get to know themselves better.
:55:45. > :55:50.Bank you. You have been voting in our text and
:55:51. > :55:56.online vote today about whether there should be lenient the in the
:55:57. > :56:00.case of soldiers and crimes they commit in conflict. Here's what you
:56:01. > :56:05.told us in your boat. 86% of those of you who voted said that leniency
:56:06. > :56:11.should be shown, and 14% said that there shouldn't. Marie says that
:56:12. > :56:18.leniency should be granted as he was in a war zone and potentially
:56:19. > :56:21.prevented more deaths. Joe says that there should be leniency, because
:56:22. > :56:26.these guys put their lives on the line so we can live in safety. An
:56:27. > :56:31.anonymous one says that these crimes should be dealt with more severely,
:56:32. > :56:36.as they do in men's damage to our reputation as the country. -- they
:56:37. > :56:40.do immense damage. He isn't above the law. He has been caught and
:56:41. > :56:47.sentenced, and all I have been argued is leniency. Although is the
:56:48. > :56:51.-- although these are not scientific polls, we know that there is a
:56:52. > :56:58.strong feeling on this. It is not right to treat it as any other
:56:59. > :57:02.murder in civilian life. I think that opinion has been swinging. The
:57:03. > :57:09.opinion has been quite divided on various programmes. I kind of agree
:57:10. > :57:18.with you that he perhaps should be given parole rather earlier than
:57:19. > :57:22.later. Peter. I think it is a tragedy. To be discussing leniency
:57:23. > :57:28.and whether he should be getting a harsher sentence I think it's pretty
:57:29. > :57:33.hideous. As a society, we need to stop sorting our differences out
:57:34. > :57:38.with bullets. Is there too much of sentimentality about the Armed
:57:39. > :57:42.Forces? Don't want to question them? I don't question their bravery under
:57:43. > :57:46.fire, but I think we need to have a bigger definition of what bravery
:57:47. > :57:57.is. I am going to go and speak at 5pm on this. We need to be more
:57:58. > :58:02.generous in the way we express this. Thank you all for your contribution.
:58:03. > :58:07.Thank you to everyone who has taken part in today's show. My studio
:58:08. > :58:12.guests, Jennie Bond, Nick Ferrari and Peter Owen-Jones. Thank you very
:58:13. > :58:16.much for your contributions, and you can continue the conversation
:58:17. > :58:20.online. The links are on our website. Next week is the last show
:58:21. > :58:27.of our current series. Goodbye.