:00:10. > :00:17.what to do about appeals from the public to increase broadcaster's
:00:17. > :00:24.Stuart Hall's sentence for sex offences. Some members of an Oxford
:00:24. > :00:34.grooming gang have been jailed for life. What is to be done? A tougher
:00:34. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:51.sentence or do they deserve a chance welcome to Sunday Morning Live. Also
:00:51. > :00:56.coming up. Benefits caps are coming in and journalist Yasmin
:00:57. > :01:01.Alibhai-Brown believes we are using losing compassion for those less
:01:01. > :01:05.fortunate. They don't all smoke and Gamble and drink away their
:01:05. > :01:12.benefits, they don't all shy away from work. Let's find our shared
:01:12. > :01:15.humanity again. Let's stop the men rising the poor. Marrying out of
:01:15. > :01:21.faith is one of the biggest dangers facing Judaism according to the
:01:21. > :01:28.Chief Rabbi. Do interfaith marriages damage religion? We meet one couple
:01:28. > :01:33.determined to follow religion. parents would be very disappointed
:01:33. > :01:38.if I had even married or brought home a non-Jewish boyfriend.
:01:38. > :01:41.guests are Ed West, the deputy editor of the Catholic Herald,
:01:41. > :01:45.Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist with the independent, who first put
:01:46. > :01:52.the story of one of Stuart Hall's victims to the police. And we are
:01:52. > :01:56.joined by Rabbi Jonathan Romain. He wrote the book, the Jews of England.
:01:56. > :02:06.We want to know what you think. If you have a webcam, you can join us
:02:06. > :02:18.
:02:18. > :02:22.grieve, has just over a week to decide whether to ask the court of
:02:22. > :02:30.appeal to review a sentence of broadcaster Stuart Hall. Last month,
:02:30. > :02:34.Lee was sent to prison for 15 months for a string of child sex offenders
:02:34. > :02:38.-- he was sent to prison for a string of child sex offences. It is
:02:38. > :02:42.one of a number of recent cases raising questions about how we deal
:02:42. > :02:46.with the perpetrators of these most emotive of crimes. Broadcaster
:02:46. > :02:52.Stuart Hall received a 15 month sentence last month for the sexual
:02:52. > :02:58.abuse of 13 girls, one aged only nine. Although he pleaded guilty to
:02:58. > :03:06.the charges, at first he vehemently denied them. The allegations are
:03:06. > :03:10.pernicious and callous and cruel and above all spurious. I am not guilty.
:03:10. > :03:12.The attorney general Dominic grieve has received more than 150
:03:12. > :03:16.complaints about the length of call sentence and is considering
:03:16. > :03:24.referring the case to the court of appeal, which has the power to
:03:24. > :03:28.increase the punishment. Two weeks again, five -- two weeks ago, five
:03:28. > :03:34.men in Oxford were given life sentences for grooming and child
:03:34. > :03:37.trafficking. This was the latest in a series of such cases involving men
:03:37. > :03:40.of predominantly South Asian backgrounds. It led to special
:03:40. > :03:48.messages being read out in Friday prayers at hundreds of mosques
:03:48. > :03:53.across the UK, condemning child sex abuse. Sort yourself out, your
:03:53. > :04:00.family, your community, your street. To get a child drug dependent and
:04:00. > :04:06.sexually abuse that child, this is reprehensible. It is pure evil.
:04:06. > :04:10.These men are pure evil. This week, the parole board has said Jon
:04:10. > :04:15.Venables should be released from prison. He was jailed aged ten as
:04:15. > :04:20.one of the killers of two-year-old James Bolger. Venables was released
:04:20. > :04:25.in 2001, but sent back to jail in 2010 for accessing child
:04:25. > :04:31.pornography. The latest sex offenders only prison in
:04:31. > :04:36.Gloucestershire opened this month. The fifth of its kind in the UK. But
:04:36. > :04:40.are long prison sentences the answer? Or is rehabilitation of
:04:40. > :04:44.offenders the key to reducing these crimes?
:04:44. > :04:51.That is the big issue, is it about long sentences or should we put more
:04:51. > :04:59.emphasis on ring ability? Definitely come we should rehabilitation. --
:04:59. > :05:03.more emphasis on rehabilitation? am not sure if it is qualitatively
:05:03. > :05:07.different from any other serious crime. Yes, of course, you want to
:05:07. > :05:15.punish the perpetrator but there has to be a follow on and we have to try
:05:15. > :05:17.to rehabilitate if possible. That is the question for our text to vote.
:05:17. > :05:23.Do child sex offenders deserve the Do child sex offenders deserve the
:05:23. > :05:26.chance for reform? You can only vote chance for reform? You can only vote
:05:26. > :05:26.once. Go online to vote for free. once. Go online to vote for free.
:05:26. > :05:33.Results will be announced at the end Results will be announced at the end
:05:33. > :05:39.Results will be announced at the end of the show. There are full terms
:05:39. > :05:44.and conditions online. There is something about child sex abuse
:05:44. > :05:49.which is particularly a motive. I wonder if it is so vilified a crime
:05:49. > :05:54.that it means we don't want to think about helping. The Catholic Church
:05:54. > :05:59.have got into a lot of trouble, partly because in the 60s and 70s
:05:59. > :06:04.and 80s, it was believed that people 's sexuality could be treated with
:06:04. > :06:10.therapy or in some ways changed. That was all part of the wider
:06:10. > :06:14.belief of society at the time. Now most psychological thinking is that
:06:14. > :06:20.people's sexual urges can't be changed at all. I think psychology
:06:20. > :06:24.is still at such an early stage in development, that we can't be sure
:06:24. > :06:30.enough to risk this. It is one of those areas where the emphasis
:06:30. > :06:36.should definitely be on being more cautious. I would say, my own views
:06:36. > :06:41.changed when I had children. It is all very well you saying that but if
:06:41. > :06:51.you had to live near sex offenders, you wouldn't want to? That is true.
:06:51. > :06:51.
:06:51. > :06:54.The problem with the church was they tried to use a cure as a cover-up.
:06:54. > :07:01.They no longer now say that you can be changed. They did believe you
:07:01. > :07:07.could be. I believe once someone has been brought to justice and
:07:07. > :07:10.punished, there ought to be a second chance. Of course I would not like
:07:10. > :07:15.to live next to a sex offender but I wouldn't like to live next to
:07:15. > :07:18.anybody who committed a major crime. But what is the alternative? Unless
:07:18. > :07:21.we create some kind of Devil 's Island and put these people in the
:07:21. > :07:25.middle of the ocean, we have to rehabilitate people into wider
:07:25. > :07:33.society. We certainly have to try. There may come a point where they
:07:33. > :07:36.reoffend and reoffend and there is a cut a point. -- cut-off point.
:07:36. > :07:45.Yasmin, you were involved in trying to bring about the prosecution of
:07:45. > :07:49.Stuart Hall. What is your view? have to judge each case differently.
:07:49. > :07:53.A child killer of a child, I would completely agree with what Jonathan
:07:53. > :08:00.has said, you can't demonise these people totally. With Stuart Hall, I
:08:00. > :08:03.got a letter, I wrote for the independent, I got a 3-page letter
:08:03. > :08:08.from a victim. You often get these letters but there was something
:08:08. > :08:13.about this letter which really got to me. After two days, I went to the
:08:13. > :08:18.local police station. There was no name or address on the letter.
:08:18. > :08:23.Except this to script and of how she had given a prize in school. That
:08:23. > :08:26.was the bit that got me. A child getting a prize from a famous
:08:27. > :08:33.person, and that famous person ruining her life, and very serious
:08:33. > :08:38.allegations. Not the ones he has admitted to. The police were
:08:38. > :08:43.fantastic, actually. Especially Lancashire police. They said he
:08:43. > :08:50.wasn't on the radar until the letter arrived. I just think in his case,
:08:50. > :09:00.the sentence is abysmally short. In other cases, with these Oxford
:09:00. > :09:04.grooming gangs, maybe 20, 22-year 's is fine. -- 22 years is fine. These
:09:04. > :09:12.men have no idea about loving sex with a woman, be it their wives or
:09:12. > :09:16.the girls, they are really distorted men. On this idea of someone like
:09:16. > :09:20.Stuart Hall, where it turns out there is a string of abuse, there is
:09:20. > :09:25.a concern there is not enough focus on the victims and the sentence
:09:25. > :09:29.should reflect how many times... The fact he denied it until very
:09:30. > :09:36.close... Up to a certain point and then a certain number of offences
:09:36. > :09:40.were admitted. Yes, just watching that clip, it was sickening, to say
:09:40. > :09:45.it was a barefaced lie and then to be found totally guilty. You must
:09:45. > :09:49.always render the people we don't see. We don't see the victims --
:09:49. > :09:57.always remember. It is their pain and away their lives have messed up.
:09:57. > :10:02.It is a terrible crime, to mess up people 's lives. Maybe the way they
:10:02. > :10:09.bring up their children, it cascades down the generation, awful. I want
:10:09. > :10:14.to bring in someone who has kindly agreed to talk about her experience.
:10:14. > :10:24.You are a campaigner for voices for victims. Thank you for being willing
:10:24. > :10:27.
:10:27. > :10:33.to talk to us for the new campaign does not affect the serious nature
:10:34. > :10:37.of these types of offences. You were abused by a sports coach, is that
:10:37. > :10:45.right, and other women have come forward and he was jailed for five
:10:45. > :10:51.years? He was jailed for six and a half years. Presumably the court
:10:51. > :10:55.gave reasons as to why they think that was appropriate. We were not
:10:55. > :11:01.given reasons as to why that sentence was appropriate. For each
:11:01. > :11:05.individual offence, he was charged from a minimum of 15 months to a
:11:05. > :11:13.maximum of two years for each individual offence, which added up
:11:13. > :11:18.to six and a half years. I felt that was in no way justifiable in
:11:18. > :11:21.comparison to the psychological damage that we have since suffered.
:11:21. > :11:24.Part of it is about punishment being proportionate and you don't feel it
:11:24. > :11:28.was. There is also the question about whether giving him treatment,
:11:28. > :11:34.the chance to reform and change his attitudes would have been something
:11:34. > :11:38.you felt was important as well. were aware he would be undergoing
:11:38. > :11:44.treatment, which I think is very important. I feel the emphasis is
:11:44. > :11:49.placed on that to such an extent that justice to victims is not
:11:49. > :11:55.delivered appropriately. What sort of sentence do you think is
:11:55. > :11:58.appropriate for a crime as horrible as this? I have been informed that
:11:58. > :12:04.paedophiles require about seven years of treatment so I think a
:12:04. > :12:09.minimum sentence of that length would be a good start. Thank you so
:12:09. > :12:12.much for speaking to us. I appreciate you being so honest.
:12:12. > :12:16.think that really shows that before we can even punish or reform people,
:12:16. > :12:20.we have got to know about the crimes. Enormous importance of the
:12:20. > :12:24.victims speaking out, or family and friends who know or harp suspect
:12:24. > :12:30.something is going on, but don't want to spill the beans -- half
:12:30. > :12:38.suspect. They have to break through the barrier of shame. It is
:12:39. > :12:43.institutional. The churches have protected these men for decades. Not
:12:43. > :12:46.because the values were any different. Child sex has been
:12:46. > :12:53.forbidden in this country from the late 19th-century. Everybody knows
:12:53. > :12:59.it is wrong. They didn't think people could be treated in that way.
:12:59. > :13:02.In the term of the Jon Venables case, I would agree about
:13:02. > :13:07.compassion. Mary Belle was not handed after she committed a
:13:07. > :13:12.terrible crime. I think you can have sympathy for both these children but
:13:12. > :13:20.at the same time, if he is looking at child pornography, you have to
:13:20. > :13:23.wonder how it could be treated. is Jon Venables. It is a fascinating
:13:23. > :13:31.point, I wonder how many people can name the other person who killed
:13:31. > :13:38.Jamie Bolger. The other person, Robert Thomson. People forget about
:13:38. > :13:42.him because hopefully, he is now rehabilitated into society. You can
:13:42. > :13:49.be compassionate towards Jon Venables but he is sick, if that is
:13:49. > :13:53.the case. I have heard the argument made that we should stop calling it
:13:53. > :13:56.child pornography, which implies it is out there. Actually you are
:13:56. > :13:59.participating in child abuse by looking at it because these children
:14:00. > :14:04.may have been abused in other ways as well. When you look at the Oxford
:14:04. > :14:08.grooming case, a number of the men involved did get life sentences. I
:14:08. > :14:12.wonder how far it is different. The social climate in which they were
:14:12. > :14:18.operating, they were not individuals operating on their own, they were
:14:19. > :14:22.part of a group of men who thought this was OK. There are these
:14:22. > :14:26.grooming networks, they are all over the country, they are of all races
:14:26. > :14:32.but there is a particular problem connected to certain groups and they
:14:32. > :14:37.happened to be... It hurts me to say this because I am a Muslim but they
:14:37. > :14:43.seem to be predominantly from Misslin background. -- of a Muslim
:14:43. > :14:47.background. It is a kind of social activity, socially approved and
:14:47. > :14:52.hidden activity, in some ways quite similar to the Catholic Church.
:14:52. > :14:55.Something grows within a group and there is no one backing out of that
:14:55. > :15:03.group. Some of the people in the families and communities must have
:15:04. > :15:10.known. We have an imam from Bradford to talk to us. I understand that you
:15:10. > :15:13.wrote that sermon about the evils of grooming, that was read out in a
:15:13. > :15:15.number of mosques. Many people are asking, wasn't grooming in cases
:15:15. > :15:25.asking, wasn't grooming in cases like Oxford partly about social
:15:25. > :15:31.attitudes to women among musclemen? -- muslin then. Perhaps you can say
:15:31. > :15:35.that that was an attitude but I work with young men from all backgrounds
:15:35. > :15:41.and we are identifying a crisis of masculinity. It is about how
:15:41. > :15:46.masculine and he is constructive. The world health organisation says
:15:46. > :15:49.that one in three women globally is a victim of sexual violence.
:15:49. > :15:53.let's talk about it in Oxford. We know that sexual abuse is a problem
:15:53. > :16:03.in many countries but these cases in Britain has shocked us because of
:16:03. > :16:10.
:16:10. > :16:14.the pattern that we're seeing. Muscle men in society have a
:16:14. > :16:19.responsibility for protecting children. -- Muslim men. Numbers of
:16:19. > :16:26.society have two protect all children. It is important that we do
:16:26. > :16:33.not racial is crime. What is the answer? How do we protect the
:16:33. > :16:37.children? These individuals are predatory individuals, and in the
:16:37. > :16:44.street to grooming model, they operate in organised crime groups
:16:44. > :16:46.that are highly sophisticated. They target these children to channel
:16:46. > :16:56.them into abuse. Unfortunately, we are disconnected from the
:16:56. > :16:57.
:16:57. > :17:04.front-line. I am sorry, I have to disagree on two points. You very
:17:04. > :17:07.bravely and nobly made a brilliant speech for the mosques to speak out,
:17:07. > :17:14.speech for the mosques to speak out, which shows that you understand
:17:14. > :17:17.there is an issue to address. The Catholic Church did not do that. We
:17:17. > :17:21.cannot say this applies to all groups. There is a particular
:17:21. > :17:28.problem. It is a particular problem and we have two address it will stop
:17:28. > :17:32.the something underlying something very particular. Let the Imam
:17:32. > :17:37.answer. We have mentioned what to do about these vulnerable young
:17:37. > :17:42.people, but what about the men who think it is OK to abuse them?
:17:42. > :17:49.need more potential perpetrator programmes. We need to be more
:17:49. > :17:54.proactive in preventing this. When we engage these young men are laid,
:17:54. > :17:59.we can channel them away from that kind of abuse. Yes, there are
:17:59. > :18:05.problems in particular communities, but it is important not to become
:18:05. > :18:07.reflective from the general issue, which is that this crisis in
:18:07. > :18:15.masculinity is making violence against carols and women in Norman
:18:15. > :18:21.in many different layers. -- girls and women a norm. Thank you for
:18:21. > :18:24.discussing this with us. Obviously, it is an issue within the Muslim
:18:24. > :18:31.world and I am not sure if it is a religious or cultural issue, but
:18:31. > :18:37.credit to the muscle is for dealing with this. It is a challenge to
:18:37. > :18:41.priests and rabbis to give a similar sermon. -- the most limbs. The
:18:41. > :18:44.reason we do not do it, the rest of society, is because we are
:18:44. > :18:54.embarrassed and we do not like to think we have people within our
:18:54. > :18:57.midst doing this. Most of society were aware of this. I have been
:18:57. > :19:02.writing about this for 15 years and it is not true that it suddenly came
:19:02. > :19:10.out. Finally, we have reached the point where we are talking about it.
:19:10. > :19:12.People are talking about it. I want to bring another contributor in. He
:19:13. > :19:17.is from an organisation that helps sex offenders reintegrate to
:19:17. > :19:27.society. You work with these people who are vilified. Do you feel they
:19:27. > :19:28.
:19:28. > :19:31.are getting a chance to reform? Perhaps I should explain. Circles is
:19:31. > :19:38.a small group of locally selected volunteers, professionally
:19:38. > :19:41.supervised. We work with men who have completed their sex offending
:19:41. > :19:46.treatment in prison. They have been incarcerated for a number of years
:19:46. > :19:48.the cars they have committed serious offences. But the ones that we are
:19:48. > :19:54.working with have acknowledged through their treatment at the time
:19:54. > :20:02.in prison that they have committed serious offences and they do not
:20:02. > :20:05.want to reoffend. They will accept any help not to reoffend. It behoves
:20:05. > :20:12.society that somebody is saying that, to give them every help not to
:20:12. > :20:15.reoffend. Circles does that what we work carefully and closely with
:20:15. > :20:19.police so that if there is a risk of a further offence taking place, that
:20:19. > :20:23.individual will be reported to the police and might go back into
:20:23. > :20:28.prison. So we support them in terms of social contact and practical
:20:28. > :20:32.help, counteracting the isolation that these individuals feel, but
:20:32. > :20:37.also it holds them to account by doing so with police and probation.
:20:37. > :20:42.Remember, 80% of sexual abuse happens within the home. This is not
:20:42. > :20:45.something that happens purely with grooming groups or celebrities. Most
:20:45. > :20:52.abuse happens within the home. was a good point to raise. Thank
:20:52. > :21:01.you. Import into view that point of view. Yasmin, do you feel we have
:21:01. > :21:07.come a long way? We have, and we haven't. I think the judgements, the
:21:07. > :21:12.artist who got no custodial sentence at all just recently, for his sex
:21:12. > :21:18.crimes against young girls, and the Stuart Hall case, that says that
:21:18. > :21:25.yes, we are beginning to wake up to this, post Jimmy Savile. But maybe
:21:25. > :21:29.there is still, more than embarrassment, a social denial. It
:21:29. > :21:33.is so hard to believe that in our society, this goes on all the time.
:21:33. > :21:38.And it does. I want to bring in the viewers. I know this is a
:21:38. > :21:42.contentious issue. Porsche says, sex offenders do not deserve a chance.
:21:42. > :21:51.It is disgusting and wrong. Liam says there needs to be a balance
:21:51. > :21:55.between punishment and treatment. Jess says, there ought to be
:21:55. > :21:58.punishment but unless we support life sentences for everyone,
:21:58. > :22:07.rehabilitation is essential. Thank you to everyone who has taken part
:22:07. > :22:11.on this. And it is a question for our text vote. Do child sex
:22:11. > :22:18.offenders deserve a chance to reform? If you think they do, text
:22:18. > :22:28.the word, vote, followed by yes. If not, text no. Texts will be charged
:22:28. > :22:32.
:22:32. > :22:36.caps come into effect across the UK. It is the trigger for a debate in
:22:36. > :22:39.the General Synod of the ruling body of the Church of England, tonight.
:22:39. > :22:43.They will be discussing welfare reform and consider a report
:22:43. > :22:50.prepared for the meeting which warns that two categories are being
:22:50. > :22:55.created, the deserving and the undeserving poor. Yasmin
:22:55. > :23:05.Alibhai-Brown worries that we have lost compassion for those less
:23:05. > :23:06.
:23:06. > :23:13.In the next few days, the latest benefit caps will hit families
:23:13. > :23:19.across the UK. Once more, we will hear of scroungers, on the fiddle,
:23:19. > :23:23.smoking and drinking away benefits. Be honest with yourself, do you know
:23:23. > :23:31.believe that the needy are greedy parasites? Sadly, too many good
:23:31. > :23:37.people do. Across Britain, as the latest cuts coming, more children
:23:37. > :23:46.and their parents will be literally on the breadline, looking for food
:23:46. > :23:50.in soup kitchens and food banks. In our land of plenty, we should feel
:23:50. > :24:00.shame, but don't. We see these families as feckless, who deserve
:24:00. > :24:04.and invite poverty. Yes, some people cheat the system. They are a small
:24:04. > :24:09.minority. More understanding and less of the blame game would
:24:09. > :24:13.influence policy-making. Ultimately, it would help juice the
:24:13. > :24:17.lines at food banks. The next time you find yourself looking down on
:24:17. > :24:26.those who have much less than you have, or blaming them for all our
:24:26. > :24:36.ills, just stop. And think. The use of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. Do you
:24:36. > :24:37.
:24:38. > :24:40.agree or disagree? -- of the views. So do we demonise the poor? I think
:24:40. > :24:47.there are occasional newspaper articles which emphasise those
:24:47. > :24:52.fiddling the system but that is the nature of news. It tends to give the
:24:52. > :25:00.bad the focus. In terms of politicians, I do not think there is
:25:00. > :25:03.much of a language of demonisation. I hear it more in the liberal
:25:03. > :25:11.press. Politicians themselves are quite careful about the language
:25:11. > :25:19.they use. They are not.Give me examples. Only 1%, according to
:25:19. > :25:28.government figures, only 1% of the problem with benefits are those who
:25:28. > :25:33.cheat the system. Only 1%. When you listen to Iain Duncan-Smith or you
:25:33. > :25:36.see the company which assesses disabled people, but all
:25:36. > :25:39.compensation -- the whole conversation in this country,
:25:39. > :25:45.triggered by right wing politicians, and not contradicted by the left,
:25:45. > :25:55.has... Which politicians?Iain Duncan-Smith says that this is the
:25:55. > :25:56.
:25:56. > :26:02.result of people cheating, the skivers, the shirkers, that is a
:26:02. > :26:08.government message. Strivers versus shirkers. And that message has got
:26:08. > :26:12.amended, that people on benefits are either cheats do not to work.
:26:12. > :26:21.your column in the past, you have criticised the white working class
:26:21. > :26:26.as tricking beer and sitting on the sofa. I do not mind them having
:26:26. > :26:29.benefits. I have never said and I never will, I have never taken
:26:29. > :26:35.benefits myself but when people are in that position, I think about
:26:35. > :26:41.their children. You use the same language. I do not. This was in
:26:41. > :26:44.relation to migration. Their hatred of migrants was a different issue.
:26:44. > :26:50.am not sure if it is a matter of demonising, I think many people do
:26:50. > :26:56.not understand. We run lunches for the homeless and one lady came in
:26:56. > :27:00.and said they had brought some food to microwave. She did not think that
:27:00. > :27:04.they might not have a microwave at home. What do we mean by the poor?
:27:04. > :27:11.There are people on the streets who may have issues with dependency on
:27:11. > :27:14.drugs or drink. But then we have these cases where we hear about
:27:14. > :27:20.people with flatscreen TVs. Is there a definition of poverty as opposed
:27:20. > :27:26.to relatively the poor? It is hard, -- relatively pure. When we do these
:27:26. > :27:31.lunches for the poor, people inspected it to be full of drug
:27:31. > :27:38.addicts, but no. Most people who come because they are homeless, or
:27:38. > :27:41.they have no meals, they are good, educated, responsible. Most of them
:27:41. > :27:46.had been in jobs but are not working. Many of them have been
:27:46. > :27:51.caught in a spiral where they have had marital difficulties, lost their
:27:51. > :27:56.home, got into debt, and suddenly you have white collar managers
:27:56. > :27:59.sleeping in the park. Are you denying that there is an issue with
:27:59. > :28:06.large numbers of people finding it hard to make ends meet? Do not deny
:28:06. > :28:11.that. -- I do not deny that. I think the problem is low wages which makes
:28:11. > :28:15.it hard for people to get into jobs. It comes back to migration to a
:28:15. > :28:22.certain extent. This was a problem that should have been dealt within
:28:23. > :28:29.1998. You can't blame migrants for this! I am not blaming migrants. I
:28:29. > :28:31.am blaming the government who decided that this is politically
:28:31. > :28:38.easier to import people to do jobs, rather than getting people into
:28:38. > :28:41.work. Is there also a political discourse where people are being
:28:41. > :28:45.talked about, and there is the idea that some people do not deserve the
:28:45. > :28:49.benefits, which is why there is this cap. But then there is a different
:28:49. > :28:55.treatment of bankers. People feel that bankers have taken more of our
:28:56. > :28:58.money. There is more hatred towards the bankers. Either undeserving
:28:58. > :29:05.bankers? They are all undeserving if they are making millions! The amount
:29:05. > :29:09.of money cheated by benefits is much smaller than the amount cheated by
:29:09. > :29:15.rich people. But it is more, located to try to get taxes out of very rich
:29:15. > :29:21.people who might flee to switch alone. I think he is making the
:29:21. > :29:26.point brilliantly. There is a divisive language. Iain Duncan-Smith
:29:26. > :29:31.is a compassionate man. Even his critics would say, whether it has
:29:31. > :29:34.terrible effects, he wants to help the poor. In terms of politics, it
:29:34. > :29:38.does not actually make sense for the Tories to try to get people into
:29:38. > :29:42.work does it does not matter for them. The very poor can sit there.
:29:42. > :29:46.They do not cost the taxpayer that much money. As long as the money
:29:46. > :29:49.rolls into banking, that is what happens. I do not want to get into
:29:49. > :29:57.the politics too much. I think the issue of their demonisation is
:29:57. > :30:00.interesting. Paul is from the Methodist Church. There is a lot of
:30:00. > :30:03.discussion in the Anglican Church about whether there is a demonising
:30:03. > :30:13.of the poor. Some people think that the Church should stay out of
:30:13. > :30:16.
:30:16. > :30:24.politics and just do your work. are asking a question about whether
:30:24. > :30:32.we should do charity and yes, we should. We have to ask why people
:30:32. > :30:35.are in poverty. A large amount of it is injustice. I would like to take
:30:35. > :30:39.the issue with the idea that the government does not demonise the
:30:39. > :30:45.poor. 11 churches wrote the government saying that on three
:30:45. > :30:49.occasions during the rollout of the benefits cap, the government said
:30:49. > :30:55.things that were plain and straightforwardly untrue. All three
:30:55. > :31:00.of them make the poorest look like cheats and scroungers. Can you tell
:31:00. > :31:07.us what you felt was untrue? The most eye-catching one is Grant
:31:07. > :31:11.Schaap said 900,000 people had come off benefits in order to do -- avoid
:31:11. > :31:14.doing it this ability test because they would have failed it. Those
:31:14. > :31:19.900,000 people were coming off benefits at cost to themselves
:31:19. > :31:24.because they no longer qualified for it. We had people doing the right
:31:24. > :31:28.thing being portrayed as scroungers and cheats by a government minister,
:31:28. > :31:35.immediately before disability benefits were cut. That is
:31:35. > :31:39.demonisation at its highest. Thank you. I want to bring in Matthew
:31:39. > :31:46.Sinclair, the Chief Executive of the taxpayer 's allowance. Did you hear
:31:46. > :31:51.what Paul Morrison had to say? don't think it is demonisation.
:31:51. > :31:53.There is a debate, an open question about the extent to which people are
:31:53. > :32:00.moving off benefits, because those benefits are becoming less
:32:00. > :32:06.attractive, or because checks are becoming stronger. There have been
:32:06. > :32:10.instances of benefit fraud. I think what the government has tried to do
:32:10. > :32:15.is reform the benefit system to ensure that some of the dramatic
:32:15. > :32:18.increases we are seeing in the cost of some benefits are arrested, so
:32:19. > :32:24.that taxpayers are picking up the bill. They have enough pressures on
:32:24. > :32:32.their own finances. At the same time they are trying to ensure benefits
:32:32. > :32:34.are focused on those who need it the most. The answer isn't to lament the
:32:34. > :32:42.rhetoric of the government, to get into this sense that the government
:32:42. > :32:50.should keep quiet about benefits. The public are getting angry, people
:32:50. > :32:57.get angry... It is a really good point, can I put it to the panel?
:32:57. > :33:02.Actually, public attitudes, they do feel they are undeserving.
:33:02. > :33:05.because the public attitudes have been fed by this story. The increase
:33:05. > :33:09.in the number of benefit dependence is because there are more older
:33:09. > :33:15.people, because there are no jobs, people are on benefits for the right
:33:15. > :33:23.reasons. The story as told for the last six months, a fantastic act of
:33:23. > :33:26.propaganda in this country. Is there a divide and rule aspect? It is
:33:26. > :33:31.almost systemic. If you look back at the Bible, it constantly talks about
:33:31. > :33:34.looking after the widow, the orphan, the stranger. The poorer
:33:34. > :33:37.element of the society has always been there and it is almost
:33:37. > :33:40.religious disposition to consider them. There will always be some
:33:40. > :33:46.people who cheat but I would prefer there are a few people who get
:33:46. > :33:49.through the net than the government penalised the vulnerable. Is there
:33:49. > :33:57.an element of media distortion? Apparently only a couple of hundred
:33:57. > :34:02.families have more than ten children on benefits. Those are the anomalies
:34:02. > :34:12.that get reported. I don't agree with the idea that people are being
:34:12. > :34:12.
:34:12. > :34:15.tricked into being poor. Most people respond to their everyday life and
:34:15. > :34:23.most people are more hostile towards people on the same social level as
:34:23. > :34:28.them who are cheating, which is why I think you get at the top, people
:34:28. > :34:32.who hate each other... I don't think it is rich against poor. I don't
:34:32. > :34:36.think so. After Dickens, Disraeli, the welfare state, what I loved and
:34:36. > :34:41.admired about this country was that everybody felt a duty to those who
:34:41. > :34:48.had less. That is more or less going from our culture. We will all be the
:34:48. > :34:52.worse for it. There are also a lot of people who are doing what might
:34:52. > :34:56.have once been called the big society thing, which seems to be a
:34:56. > :35:02.politically dead idea. Religious groups and other groups have always
:35:02. > :35:12.been there. We now have food banks, we have lunches for the homeless,
:35:12. > :35:17.
:35:17. > :35:23.people running shelters for OAPs. We concern? -- really happening.
:35:23. > :35:33.course it is. People have to go to food banks because there is not
:35:33. > :35:47.
:35:47. > :35:55.well as an economic squeeze. This says benefits caps are not about
:35:55. > :36:01.scroungers but lessening dependency on the state. Megan says, the right
:36:01. > :36:11.wing media has done its job with the strivers and shirkers narrative.
:36:11. > :36:11.
:36:11. > :36:15.Later, do interface marriages damage religion? -- interfaith marriages.
:36:15. > :36:23.You can keep voting on our text poll. Do child sex offenders deserve
:36:23. > :36:33.reform? You can only vote once and you have about five minutes before
:36:33. > :36:38.
:36:38. > :36:43.story I wanted to talk about was the fact that John Paul II was going to
:36:43. > :36:49.be made a saint. The ceremony is going to take place later this year.
:36:49. > :36:58.As the Catholic on the panel, how should we view it? If you I not a
:36:58. > :37:02.Catholic, it can seem an odd thing. John Paul II was a great man, one of
:37:02. > :37:06.the great figures of the 20th century. I suppose this was likely
:37:06. > :37:12.to happen. There are concerns amongst some Catholics that its aims
:37:12. > :37:19.the happening very quickly. There is almost a saint inflation, I suppose.
:37:19. > :37:29.John Paul II made a lot of saints. Along with Paul VI, the previous
:37:29. > :37:37.Pope... Is it John the 21st? He doesn't need a second miracle,
:37:37. > :37:42.apparently. I find it baffling. I find any human being elevated in
:37:42. > :37:50.that way quite baffling, and I would include secular heroes as well. What
:37:50. > :37:56.I remember about John Paul II are his views on contraception. And the
:37:56. > :38:01.effect across Africa. And his views on HIV. I am sorry, I don't know how
:38:01. > :38:04.that tallies with sainthood, miracle or not. And there was controversy
:38:04. > :38:10.about child sex abuse and whether the Catholic Church under his
:38:10. > :38:14.leadership did enough to deal with it. It proves he is a human being
:38:14. > :38:19.with great characteristics and smaller ones. I am happy to sign up
:38:19. > :38:28.to the fact he had heroic characteristics. Just as with other
:38:28. > :38:34.people. A person stands by their life story, not whether they were
:38:34. > :38:40.cured from an illness or not. Catholicism and it is a hard
:38:40. > :38:45.religion to square with the modern world in many ways. The secular
:38:45. > :38:55.society... Nelson Mandela is basically treated like a saint. I
:38:55. > :39:00.
:39:00. > :39:04.don't think he is comedy has a lot Jordan. The government has been
:39:04. > :39:10.quick to say that this is justice working and he will have a fair
:39:10. > :39:13.trial. It took many years. For all our sakes I am glad he is gone but
:39:13. > :39:20.they will have to find another demon. There is always one person
:39:20. > :39:26.who kind of bodies evil. There were reasons why the government wanted to
:39:26. > :39:34.get rid of him. I hope Jordan sticks with what it has promised. It is
:39:34. > :39:37.better for him not to languish and die in one of our presence. He did
:39:37. > :39:41.quite a lot to deserve his demonisation, he was an awful man
:39:41. > :39:48.and he influenced lots of young guys and poisoned their minds. I am glad
:39:48. > :39:52.they did it the right way, ultimately. The most important
:39:52. > :39:57.aspect is not so much him but the British judicial system. Whether you
:39:57. > :40:03.like him or not, been frustrated by him or not, it shows we take just a
:40:03. > :40:07.seriously. You have been voting in our text poll this morning, do child
:40:07. > :40:13.sex offenders deserve a chance to reform. The poll is now closing so
:40:13. > :40:20.pleads to the text -- please do not text. We will bring you the result
:40:20. > :40:24.at the end of the show. The outgoing chief rabbi has said marrying out of
:40:24. > :40:33.faith is one of the biggest Ainger is facing Judaism -- one of the
:40:33. > :40:43.biggest dangers facing. He declared that each such loss is a tragedy and
:40:43. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :41:00.a family tree that has lasted 100 due, it was not really a question.
:41:00. > :41:05.The only way someone can understand me properly, my traditions and
:41:05. > :41:10.customs and heritage is to marry someone else who is Jewish.
:41:11. > :41:14.husband, Ben, has the same view. friends knew what was important to
:41:14. > :41:21.me I knew I was involved in my Judaism. It would never dawn on them
:41:21. > :41:26.to suggest a non-Jewish person as a potential life partner. It frames
:41:26. > :41:29.the rest of your life and how you act, and your morals and what you
:41:29. > :41:34.think is important in life, and education and family and all those
:41:34. > :41:40.values, in a way, are connected to or come out of my Judaism and my
:41:40. > :41:49.connection to God. Inevitably, whoever I similar connections and
:41:49. > :41:54.similar beliefs. Ben and Jessica's decision to marry within the faith
:41:55. > :41:59.obviously delighted their parents. Both my parents would be hard to
:41:59. > :42:06.come if I decided to leave my traditions, my culture, my up
:42:06. > :42:10.ringing and marry someone of a different faith, or even no faith.
:42:10. > :42:14.Just marrying someone out of Judaism. To spend the rest of your
:42:14. > :42:19.life and have a life partner, inevitably you want someone who has
:42:19. > :42:26.shared goals and history. And the connection to that wider family of
:42:26. > :42:32.Judaism around the world. A major part of that history is World War II
:42:32. > :42:36.and the persecution of Jews across Europe. To see the destruction that
:42:36. > :42:43.the Holocaust did to the Jews, that someone tried to wipe us all out, it
:42:43. > :42:48.only strengthens my Jewish belief and it only means that I want to
:42:48. > :42:51.continue this tradition and our religion, and ensure that never
:42:51. > :42:57.happens again. And that our children will also understand the importance
:42:57. > :43:07.of marrying Jewish, so that our community and the Jewish people
:43:07. > :43:14.
:43:14. > :43:19.future as more people marry out of their faith? Are other religions
:43:19. > :43:26.facing the same problem? Would you marry out of your religion? Does it
:43:26. > :43:30.matter at all? Tell us what you think. Jonathan, some people might
:43:30. > :43:34.say it is a unique issue for the Jewish community because it is
:43:34. > :43:40.partly based on ethnicity. It does concern people, doesn't it? It is a
:43:40. > :43:44.wider issue and I wish them many happy years together. Certainly,
:43:44. > :43:46.there are many advantages, whatever faith you are, to marrying somebody
:43:46. > :43:51.of the same faith. Whether it is heading in the same direction,
:43:51. > :43:56.bringing up children in the same way if it is a domestic faith where you
:43:56. > :44:02.have food laws and festivals, there are so many benefits. You have to
:44:02. > :44:07.say, Ben and Jessica, only 50% of the story. There are many people who
:44:07. > :44:14.do marry out because it is a multi-faith society. People who work
:44:14. > :44:17.together during the day play together at night and mixed faith
:44:17. > :44:20.marriages are inevitable for that just because somebody marries out of
:44:20. > :44:25.their faith, doesn't mean they are rejecting their faith. It is
:44:25. > :44:33.something the rigid groups have got to come to terms with. Do you think
:44:33. > :44:36.in the Jewish tradition, more people have to come to terms with it?
:44:36. > :44:42.prefer it when people marry within the faith but you have to look at
:44:42. > :44:46.the other 50%. A lot depends on whether they are lost or not as to
:44:46. > :44:51.whether the community around them is hostile and says that you out, or
:44:51. > :44:57.whether it recognises that these can still be Jewish or Muslim or Hindu.
:44:57. > :45:01.Many of them still have religious feelings and a strong sense of
:45:01. > :45:10.religious roots. It is not an either or. For some people, they can love
:45:10. > :45:15.their God and their partner. Yasmin, you disagree? I am so against all of
:45:15. > :45:20.this, whichever faith it is coming from. I am a Muslim and I go to the
:45:20. > :45:23.mosque and pray. My husband used to be a Christian and he has not told
:45:23. > :45:28.me what he is now! Neither of my children have been forced into
:45:28. > :45:35.anything. They know what I pray and they sometimes pray with me. I find
:45:35. > :45:39.it quite shocking actually that faiths can impose these things on
:45:39. > :45:46.young people. Do you sympathise with the Jewish situation, because of the
:45:46. > :45:50.historical issue? This is people making choices, not imposing.
:45:50. > :45:56.said he would not want his children to do it. What happens if your child
:45:56. > :46:01.does wants to marry out? Would the attitudes they -- with the attitudes
:46:01. > :46:07.they have expressed, they would find a way to put pressure. I think this
:46:07. > :46:12.is one end, saying to people that you are wrong to fall in love with
:46:12. > :46:19.someone outside of the circle. is intolerable. What is your view,
:46:19. > :46:23.Ed? It can seem that you can have a church wedding in this country if
:46:23. > :46:27.you are vaguely Christian. But it is an issue for Catholics? I come from
:46:27. > :46:33.a different situation. My parents are Anglican and Catholic, and that
:46:33. > :46:38.was not a big issue in England. It was kind of next. The taxi driver
:46:38. > :46:42.who picked us up was saying that his dad was a Protestant and his
:46:42. > :46:49.brothers never spoke to him after marrying a Catholic so that is one
:46:49. > :46:51.end of it. I can understand. Particularly, they mentioned that 70
:46:51. > :46:59.years ago one third of the Jewish population in the world was
:46:59. > :47:06.murdered. You can understand their needs to want to survive. Once the
:47:06. > :47:11.barriers come down, face starts to, as much as we would like to be
:47:11. > :47:16.liberal, it starts to go. And the children will probably not go to any
:47:16. > :47:23.religious service. And atheists would say, what is the problem with
:47:23. > :47:28.that? What Jonathan says is right. If you marry out and you are Jewish,
:47:28. > :47:33.the partner becomes part of the wider community. That is what has
:47:33. > :47:40.happened to Mike husband. My people have accepted him as one of them
:47:40. > :47:44.although he is not one of us. That way, you expand your influence.
:47:44. > :47:49.Actually, sometimes it is the other part, marrying in. There is no
:47:49. > :47:56.reason why religions cannot be more welcoming. Religions become
:47:56. > :48:02.welcoming. Accepted conversions is an interesting point. We're joined
:48:02. > :48:10.by a rabbi, from the Northwood United Synagogue and Orthodox
:48:10. > :48:16.tradition. What is your view on the idea that you could be more
:48:16. > :48:20.welcoming and people would convert? Well, we want to embrace as many
:48:20. > :48:26.people as we can but the concern is, particularly with interfaith
:48:26. > :48:31.marriage, that it drives assimilation. That is a great
:48:31. > :48:35.concern. For me as a rabbi, counselling individuals, it is very
:48:35. > :48:40.clear from the evidence that interfaith marriages are more at
:48:40. > :48:44.risk of failing. Because of the tension that is created. I do not
:48:44. > :48:50.deny that interfaith marriages can work and Yasmin's example is fine,
:48:50. > :49:00.but in general, interfaith marriages, unfortunately, are not as
:49:00. > :49:03.stable. Critics might say that is because... I advise people, and I
:49:03. > :49:06.have had examples of young Jewish men who have been dating and their
:49:06. > :49:09.parents have been concerned. I have talked to them through important
:49:09. > :49:13.issues. It is clear that couples often do not talk about religion at
:49:13. > :49:18.the beginning of a relationship because it is not a romantic thing.
:49:18. > :49:22.Good point. But as the relationship develops, and when they have
:49:22. > :49:25.children, religion becomes important. Suddenly, questions like,
:49:25. > :49:34.should we get our son circumcised or should he be baptised, suddenly
:49:34. > :49:39.those questions caused tension. have raised interesting issues.
:49:39. > :49:43.People can understand... Sorry to interrupt but people understand the
:49:43. > :49:46.idea of guidance but to intervene and tell a couple that we do not
:49:46. > :49:50.think you should marry because the marriage will not last, is that not
:49:50. > :49:54.a different matter? Is that not about social pressure on the couple
:49:54. > :50:02.rather than accepting a couple? giving people guidance not telling
:50:02. > :50:05.them what to do. You have never told people to reconsider a
:50:05. > :50:12.relationship? I want to give them the tools I which should make an
:50:12. > :50:17.informed choice. -- by which to. Often, couples do not asked the
:50:17. > :50:21.right questions when they set down to get married. If the couple said
:50:21. > :50:27.to you that they have voted through but they still wanted to go ahead
:50:27. > :50:32.with the marriage, what would you say? I would wish them every success
:50:32. > :50:37.but I am with the Chief Rabbi on this and unfortunately, the evidence
:50:37. > :50:41.holds that while some interfaith marriages can work, over the
:50:41. > :50:48.generations, it will drive assimilation and assimilation will
:50:48. > :50:52.drive interfaith marriages. It concerns me.
:50:52. > :50:59.The rabbi is right that it is an issue. Marriage is minefield at the
:50:59. > :51:02.best of times. Potentially, it is more explosive. My mother gave me a
:51:02. > :51:05.question for the Chief Rabbi last week to say that lots of friends
:51:05. > :51:08.have daughters in good relationships, and in the end, when
:51:08. > :51:13.it came to marriage, Jewish partners felt they could not marry out and
:51:13. > :51:18.that was social pressure. The other side was very welcoming, whatever
:51:18. > :51:25.the faith. Some people will feel social pressure. I run seminars for
:51:25. > :51:30.couples, and I must have cancelled 3000 couples. -- cancelled. They
:51:30. > :51:34.have never said, shall we get married? They always say, we are
:51:34. > :51:40.getting married, and how can you help. It is my choice to close the
:51:40. > :51:45.door welcome them. -- or welcome them. And a curious thing happened.
:51:45. > :51:50.Many couples said because they had to do the right things, in advance,
:51:51. > :51:53.talking about issues, home life, circumcision, baptism, therefore the
:51:53. > :51:58.marriage is stronger because of it. And the other thing is that some
:51:58. > :52:00.couples have said that because they are the only Jew or Muslim in the
:52:00. > :52:03.relationship, they have become more religious because they know that
:52:04. > :52:13.they have two fly the flak and if it was not for them, the ceremony would
:52:13. > :52:21.go. I think of Marilyn Monroe converting to Judaism. I was married
:52:21. > :52:26.within the faith for a one-time and to say that that kind of safeguarded
:52:26. > :52:32.the marriage was wrong. And how would we feel if white Christians
:52:33. > :52:38.said the same, we do not want our people to marry out? We would be
:52:38. > :52:43.quite upset. This happens with other faiths. There have been incidents
:52:43. > :52:53.where there have been angry protests over mixed marriages. And I want to
:52:53. > :52:55.
:52:55. > :53:05.bring in a doctor from the council of Singh Barrows. What is your view
:53:05. > :53:06.
:53:06. > :53:16.on marrying out? Good morning. -- seek gurdwaras. Should seeks be
:53:16. > :53:16.
:53:16. > :53:20.marrying out? It is going on at the moment. It is a free country and
:53:20. > :53:28.people are making choices. They work together, and a folly jubilation is.
:53:28. > :53:34.Is it right? -- form relationships. If they love each other, of course.
:53:34. > :53:39.Every religion is part of love and if they love each other, there is a
:53:39. > :53:45.chance they can meet the criteria. To do that, it helps to have the
:53:45. > :53:49.same beliefs. Heather is from the interfaith marriage network. It
:53:49. > :53:53.seems that a lot of what we are hearing is for interfaith marriages
:53:53. > :53:59.to work, in the end, you have to be one faith so one person should
:53:59. > :54:03.convert. Is that the solution? Perhaps not surprisingly, that is
:54:03. > :54:11.not my view. I think conversion has to come from within and be an
:54:11. > :54:13.individual choice. One aspect of this we have not talked about, and
:54:13. > :54:18.we have been discussing it interestingly, is the individual
:54:18. > :54:25.experience. I think people are changed at a personal level by an
:54:25. > :54:29.interfaith relationship. Naturally, communities and families are scared
:54:29. > :54:36.by what it means long-term and for the next generation, but for the
:54:36. > :54:40.couple themselves, that is where the real encounter hast to happen and
:54:40. > :54:47.has to be worked out. I think the either/or option, that if you were
:54:47. > :54:54.marrying a Spaniard, you would stop speaking Spanish, you wouldn't. He
:54:54. > :55:02.would engage both. You would form a culture somewhere between the two,
:55:02. > :55:07.maybe taking the best of both. love that you use that phrase, that
:55:07. > :55:11.it is a personal encounter. Is that the most useful way forward? Many
:55:11. > :55:14.people here will be saying that it is an obsession by religious people
:55:14. > :55:23.and that is the reason we have so much trouble. Because they are not
:55:23. > :55:26.tolerant. All religions have had walls around them traditionally. But
:55:26. > :55:33.in a modern world, this fundamentally clashes with the ideas
:55:33. > :55:39.of individual freedom. I think there is a wider issue of parental
:55:39. > :55:47.influence. We have gone to another extreme now. You were talking about
:55:47. > :55:51.arranged marriage. It could be seen as an opportunity to evangelise.
:55:51. > :55:54.Arranged marriage is fine if it is done with everybody's consent but
:55:54. > :56:01.the idea that you have to live within the fold is wrong. It is
:56:01. > :56:04.where we get to, forced marriages, in the end. And I think we recognise
:56:04. > :56:09.that we are in a different social context. They all think that the
:56:09. > :56:15.family that preys together, stays together, is not happening any more.
:56:15. > :56:19.Like many rabbis, I am torn by a mixed face couple that are torn
:56:19. > :56:23.between loyalty to tradition, but then they say that they are in love
:56:23. > :56:26.and it is the best thing that has ever happened to them. Who am I to
:56:26. > :56:32.disagree? Let's have this discussion in another generation and see where
:56:32. > :56:39.we are. The text poll votes are in. We asked that the beginning of the
:56:39. > :56:45.programming child sex offenders deserve a chance to reform. 21% said
:56:45. > :56:49.that yes, they do, and 79% said no. It is a thing about who feels
:56:49. > :56:56.strongly enough to contact us, but there is an acknowledgement that it
:56:56. > :57:00.is not black and white. There is. Working with these people, it is not
:57:00. > :57:06.easy and it does not always work. There are psychological things that
:57:06. > :57:09.lead was talking about. We should give it ago possible. -- Ed. I have
:57:09. > :57:14.gone into court and seen people up for a second offence, and you do
:57:14. > :57:20.wonder, how must the survivors family feel? I would be furious. I
:57:20. > :57:24.know what it takes... I would hate to be the judge making that
:57:24. > :57:28.decision, knowing that you were responsible if it happened again.
:57:28. > :57:33.But there is a change in attitudes. If you look at the 70s and how sex
:57:33. > :57:40.abuse was treated, we bought getting fines for serious abuses. Maybe that
:57:40. > :57:45.is the change, the reserve different social climate. Perhaps there can be
:57:45. > :57:51.treatments. Firstly, we are talking about crimes against children, which
:57:51. > :57:54.are always more emotive. Secondly, it is a relatively new crime in the
:57:54. > :57:58.sense that it has been under the radar for so long. It is only now
:57:58. > :58:03.coming into the open. We are beginning to treat it like we have
:58:03. > :58:11.treated those other crimes for years and years. We will have to leave
:58:11. > :58:14.that the session. -- that discussion. Thank you to our studio