:00:07. > :00:13.In less than six weeks, restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians
:00:14. > :00:16.migrating to the UK will be lifted. The approaching deadline has
:00:17. > :00:20.triggered a debate about the impact that will have here. On Sunday
:00:21. > :00:40.Morning Live, we ask, is immigration good for Britain?
:00:41. > :00:47.Good morning, I am Samira Ahmed. Also today, is talking proper a big
:00:48. > :00:51.deal? Engine in Zephaniah takes issue with a school in the Midlands
:00:52. > :00:59.which is banning slang -- Benjamin Zephaniah. Attempts by some schools
:01:00. > :01:02.to ban slang is a kind of linguistic fascism. As the Church of England
:01:03. > :01:06.takes an historic step towards the first female bishops, we ask, would
:01:07. > :01:12.religions be better with female leaders.
:01:13. > :01:16.And a pilgrim's progress. Nonbeliever Simon Reeve tells us how
:01:17. > :01:23.he reacted to following in the footsteps of the faithful. It is
:01:24. > :01:29.spectacular. Joining me this week, Vicky
:01:30. > :01:34.Beeching, a theologian and broadcaster, Benjamin Zephaniah, a
:01:35. > :01:38.celebrated poet, writer and actor, who has also spent many years in
:01:39. > :01:43.China studying kung fu, and Angela Epstein, a freelance journalist who
:01:44. > :01:47.describes herself as a non-feminist. We want to know what
:01:48. > :02:02.you can think you can join us via Skype, on Twitter or by phone.
:02:03. > :02:08.Who comes to live here and who can claim benefits is one of the biggest
:02:09. > :02:12.debates at the moment. On January one, in common with other countries
:02:13. > :02:17.in the European Union, written will be obliged to allow people from
:02:18. > :02:21.Bulgaria and Romania to settle here. Migration Watch UK claims around
:02:22. > :02:25.50,000 people a year could take advantage. The government won't get
:02:26. > :02:29.involved in predictions but says it will restrict benefits for those
:02:30. > :02:33.arriving here. A study by University College London said recent migrants
:02:34. > :02:38.were less likely to claim benefits and live in social housing than
:02:39. > :02:40.people born in Britain. So are immigrants good for Britain? We
:02:41. > :02:46.visited one of the most diverse parts of the UK to see what impact
:02:47. > :02:52.the case of immigration have had. Tower Hamlets -- decades of
:02:53. > :02:55.immigration. Tower Hamlets is a densely populated area of the
:02:56. > :03:00.capital and 50% of the people here are from black and ethnic minority
:03:01. > :03:04.groups. One of the wonderful things about Tower Hamlets is that it is
:03:05. > :03:09.constantly changing. Throughout its whole history it has been a home for
:03:10. > :03:13.different waves of immigrants. That diversity in population means that
:03:14. > :03:18.the city in religion, too, with different faiths rubbing shoulder to
:03:19. > :03:22.shoulder. That has sometimes created tensions. To help prevent that,
:03:23. > :03:28.local religious leaders have formed an interfaith group. Religious faith
:03:29. > :03:33.can be a double-edged sword. It can be a real means of overcoming
:03:34. > :03:37.hostility, difference, building community, building good relations
:03:38. > :03:45.between different people. But also, it can be a tool of disaffection, it
:03:46. > :03:49.can be misused and it can lead to difficulties. So that part of our
:03:50. > :03:55.work is ensuring that that is not the case. People come to us at the
:03:56. > :03:59.mosque saying, then you address this issue? Except these people don't
:04:00. > :04:07.come to the mosque and that is why they are doing this. There is bound
:04:08. > :04:11.to be some misunderstanding, particularly when communities don't
:04:12. > :04:16.mix, when people don't really understand each other and see each
:04:17. > :04:21.other as strangers, possibly intruders, somebody taking over
:04:22. > :04:28.somebody else's territory, in the inverted commas. That is part of the
:04:29. > :04:35.importance of interface. The potential arrival of a new wave of
:04:36. > :04:40.immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania is not viewed with alarm. New
:04:41. > :04:48.arrivals in the past have integrated here in unexpected ways. The Muslim
:04:49. > :04:52.community, as it grew in this area, actually shopped in the Jewish
:04:53. > :05:04.market, because the kosher food also comes within the category of how --
:05:05. > :05:08.halal. You get an influx first, people will come, they will try to
:05:09. > :05:11.make an living, they will go through the same struggles, there will be
:05:12. > :05:16.some tension in the community and then it will phase out.
:05:17. > :05:19.That is the debate we are going to be having at the start of this
:05:20. > :05:24.programme. Angela Epstein, is immigration a good thing for
:05:25. > :05:27.Britain? Carefully managed immigration can be very good for
:05:28. > :05:31.Britain. Britain has a proud history of welcoming the rich and diverse
:05:32. > :05:36.members of different communities from all over the world. There are
:05:37. > :05:39.two very quick points, it has to be carefully managed so that
:05:40. > :05:43.infrastructure, welfare services and other services that will be required
:05:44. > :05:47.can support the waves of immigration. And I think people who
:05:48. > :05:52.come to this country have to be prepared to integrate into British
:05:53. > :05:53.life. They can maintain their own ethnic and communitywide
:05:54. > :05:58.preferences, but they need to be able to be an integrated part of
:05:59. > :06:04.British life and not be isolated from British life. It is the
:06:05. > :06:05.question for our text and online vote. Is immigration good for
:06:06. > :06:20.Britain? You can only vote once, go online to
:06:21. > :06:23.vote for free. Benjamin, you will know that for
:06:24. > :06:28.months and months, this has been a big issue and a lot of people feel
:06:29. > :06:30.concerned. They have this idea that now immigration is becoming a
:06:31. > :06:37.problem, do you understand that? They said that when the Polish
:06:38. > :06:42.came. Is immigration good for Britain? Immigration is what Britain
:06:43. > :06:48.is about. The Anglos, the Saxons, the Celts, they were all people who
:06:49. > :06:51.came. I came from Birmingham, originally settled by a tribe called
:06:52. > :06:56.the Burma tribe. You wouldn't know who they are now, they have
:06:57. > :07:01.integrated. It takes time. Britain is made up of immigrants. Step
:07:02. > :07:06.forward, who are the pure British people. There is no such thing.
:07:07. > :07:09.There was a particular concern about these new groups, Bulgarians and
:07:10. > :07:12.Romanians and I wonder if you can see why it there might be greater
:07:13. > :07:17.concern about aspects of those groups. I think a lot of it is
:07:18. > :07:21.largely scaremongering. These concerns have been raised through
:07:22. > :07:26.the ages and it strikes me as similar to feel as we see in
:07:27. > :07:30.immigration as in technology. People panicked when the TV came out,
:07:31. > :07:34.social media is making people panic. We don't realise we are walking the
:07:35. > :07:39.same road that generations have walked before us. We feel like
:07:40. > :07:42.issues we are facing today and tomorrow are like the Armageddon and
:07:43. > :07:46.they take on a scaremongering nature. I think we are overreacting
:07:47. > :07:51.and we need to say this is nothing new. We have to take a pragmatic
:07:52. > :07:55.approach. People are scared of being labelled as racists, because there
:07:56. > :08:03.was a notion that because you don't want people to come, for practical
:08:04. > :08:07.reasons, then it is xenophobic. We are living in a time of economic
:08:08. > :08:12.austerity and it may be that the numbers don't add up, maybe they
:08:13. > :08:17.will. Maybe the influx will not live up to the expectations and the
:08:18. > :08:21.scaremongering expectations. I think there is probably a legitimate
:08:22. > :08:24.concern that people are airing, that has to be addressed or
:08:25. > :08:27.unacknowledged without us getting befuddled by the notion that it is
:08:28. > :08:32.racist. My grandparents came to Britain at the turn of the century,
:08:33. > :08:36.escaping from persecution, and Britain has a very fine heritage of
:08:37. > :08:39.Christian compassion and welcoming in people who needed to have
:08:40. > :08:43.sanctuary, and we should always uphold that. We have to understand
:08:44. > :08:47.as well that if there are legitimate concerns, as lots of newspaper polls
:08:48. > :08:55.have showed us, at least politicians should address it, if only to
:08:56. > :08:59.reassure people, or to condemn the polls that are coming out, without
:09:00. > :09:04.the fear of being labelled as racist. There is a concern that you
:09:05. > :09:10.can't even talk about it without being labelled racist. I don't know,
:09:11. > :09:15.if you start a conversation with, I am not a racist, but, most people go
:09:16. > :09:20.on to say racist things. If you have a good and it will stand up on its
:09:21. > :09:23.own. Most people who have concerns about immigration from other ethnic
:09:24. > :09:29.minorities. It is clearly not racist. I hear Asian people and
:09:30. > :09:34.Afro-Caribbean people talking about the Bulgarians and the polls, in a
:09:35. > :09:38.way that was spoken about them. I call it the last of the boat
:09:39. > :09:42.syndrome. What happened is, you are desperate to move your life on. You
:09:43. > :09:48.come from the Caribbean or Tanzania, you get here, you suffer
:09:49. > :09:52.racism, used goggle to assimilate, you get in and then you go, who else
:09:53. > :09:56.is coming, I want to keep them out because now I am British. You have
:09:57. > :10:02.learned it from the people who were before you. From one generation of
:10:03. > :10:05.immigrants to the other. Is there a distinction between the idea of
:10:06. > :10:10.people who might not be working and those who did work? There is a real
:10:11. > :10:14.demonisation of people who have not arrived yet. We can make all kind of
:10:15. > :10:18.speculations and there is a lot of little gameplaying, trying to win
:10:19. > :10:23.votes by scaremongering. We don't know what is going to happen so
:10:24. > :10:27.worst-case scenarios come out. I wonder whether part of it is about
:10:28. > :10:33.what we consider to be enough, what we have got used to come as what we
:10:34. > :10:37.expect in life in terms of finances and resources. And whether or not we
:10:38. > :10:42.are used to so much that we need to realise, we need to lower
:10:43. > :10:46.expectations and be more generous to others. If our expectations were not
:10:47. > :10:53.so high about the services and the income we expect, maybe we would
:10:54. > :10:57.have more to give away. I want to bring in a contributor from
:10:58. > :11:04.Migration Watch UK, the campaigning group which has concerns about
:11:05. > :11:07.borders. Thank you for joining us. Other EU countries are opening their
:11:08. > :11:14.borders to Bulgarians and Romanians, too. What is the fear
:11:15. > :11:19.about them all coming here? No fear. Before I say anything, can I just
:11:20. > :11:25.say that your question lacks one small word, Mass. Is mass
:11:26. > :11:29.immigration good for Britain? The answer is most definitely not. They
:11:30. > :11:33.will come here, of course, even though we will be sharing the load
:11:34. > :11:38.with others this time. Between 30 and 70,000 in our judgement. There
:11:39. > :11:44.is a huge disparity between living standards and income levels in
:11:45. > :11:49.Romania, Bulgaria and this country. Someone coming here who is on the
:11:50. > :11:54.minimum wage will be something like four to five times better. A family
:11:55. > :11:58.coming here will be anything up to nine times better off. Of course
:11:59. > :12:02.they will come here. The key is suggesting we need to be more
:12:03. > :12:08.generous and -- the key is suggesting. And maybe share
:12:09. > :12:16.resources more. -- Vicky is suggesting. As I say, the word that
:12:17. > :12:21.is missing is mass migration. It is not in anyone's interest. Frankly,
:12:22. > :12:25.algorithms and Romanians I took to say exactly this and I wouldn't mind
:12:26. > :12:31.betting that a large proportion of the viewers now feel the same way.
:12:32. > :12:37.They would like to see the controls and restrictions continue beyond the
:12:38. > :12:42.end of this year for Romanians and Bulgarians, I agree with them. Tell
:12:43. > :12:55.me why some bug aliens and Romanians would like restrictions to remain --
:12:56. > :13:00.why some bug -- Bulgarians. They believe there will be those who will
:13:01. > :13:10.be taking advantage of whatever is on offer here. Benefits? There are
:13:11. > :13:16.something like 2 million Romanians and Bulgarians in Spain and Italy,
:13:17. > :13:19.there is unemployment there as we know, particularly among the young,
:13:20. > :13:26.how many of those are going to be coming here as well? Benjamin, your
:13:27. > :13:32.thoughts. We don't know the numbers and we can't just scaremongering. If
:13:33. > :13:37.you have some concerns about people migrating here, why don't you have
:13:38. > :13:43.concerns about people migrating from here? That have been two parts of
:13:44. > :13:48.Estonia. They have said, you can't live here, all of the endless people
:13:49. > :13:53.live here, they have bought up all the houses -- all of the English
:13:54. > :13:57.people. People move around, it is what happens. I don't think they
:13:58. > :14:03.will come here in big numbers. I am not an expert in this area. Is there
:14:04. > :14:06.a concern about whether lots of skilled workers are the ones who
:14:07. > :14:12.leave those countries, and perhaps it has costs for those countries?
:14:13. > :14:16.People do what they want to do, and there has to be freedom of movement.
:14:17. > :14:20.People want to live in all sorts of places for various reasons. We have
:14:21. > :14:23.to put in into context. We suffer in Britain from the notion of welfare
:14:24. > :14:27.dependency. There probably is a strong argument there, there are
:14:28. > :14:31.people that feel that the state owes them a living, that it is more
:14:32. > :14:38.profitable to stay in bed than go to work. But equally a lot of people
:14:39. > :14:43.just want to earn a living. We are a small island nation and we only have
:14:44. > :14:48.a small number of services that we can offer them. Why do they want to
:14:49. > :14:52.come? Are they coming here because they have small wages in their
:14:53. > :14:58.countries? Or are we a soft touch? It is tapping into these concerns
:14:59. > :15:03.that makes it such an inflammatory discussion. There's a huge amount of
:15:04. > :15:07.talent that comes to this country but equally there may be people
:15:08. > :15:18.coming here because they think the welfare state is a soft touch. I
:15:19. > :15:21.want to bring in Macek, who works for Fife Council in Scotland and is
:15:22. > :15:27.originally from Poland. Poland. I gather you moved here from Poland in
:15:28. > :15:37.2003. You have heard a lot of concern about people moving here for
:15:38. > :15:39.the welfare system. What's your at heard a lot of concern about people
:15:40. > :15:44.moving here for the welfare system. What's your at towed -- attitude to
:15:45. > :15:48.recent immigrants? Good morning. I have moved here to improve may
:15:49. > :15:53.English and not the benefits. I've made a contribution to the economy
:15:54. > :15:58.by paying taxes and by buying goods and services locally. That's what
:15:59. > :16:03.most of the migrants do. In my work for the local authority on a daily
:16:04. > :16:09.basis I contribute to the local society by helping local young
:16:10. > :16:15.unemployed people in employment. And also outwith my work I'm involved in
:16:16. > :16:20.charity, so I make a contribution to the local society, through a number
:16:21. > :16:26.of charities, including Fife Migrants Forum, that I co-funded and
:16:27. > :16:31.I chair, where we help local people from all different backgrounds,
:16:32. > :16:34.including local people from indigenous communities through
:16:35. > :16:38.setting up things like the collection point of the local credit
:16:39. > :16:43.union, so local people can come and see this is a different side of
:16:44. > :16:49.migrants that we are being given in the media. Sorry to interrupt you
:16:50. > :16:56.and you are doing so much stuff and I detect a beautiful twang in your
:16:57. > :17:00.accent. It is so nice. Some will say you are exactly what we want in
:17:01. > :17:06.Britain but do you feel that some groups are not integrating maybe as
:17:07. > :17:09.much as you? I'm not an exception among the migrant community. Many
:17:10. > :17:15.people are doing the same and maybe more. In terms of the ability to
:17:16. > :17:18.integrate, it doesn't depend on nationality, ethnicity or cultural
:17:19. > :17:22.background. It depends on the level of barriers to integration, such as
:17:23. > :17:30.lack of language skills, lack of education or lack of confidence.
:17:31. > :17:33.These are barriers that some people may have, but they can be overcome
:17:34. > :17:38.with some help, so I think probably what we have to look at is how to
:17:39. > :17:41.help those people that are experiencing barriers to
:17:42. > :17:46.integration. Alright. Because they are certainly coming here with the
:17:47. > :17:52.will to integrate. Lovely. Thank you. I would like to bring in our
:17:53. > :17:57.guest from Migration Watch, Alp. The will is there to integrate. They
:17:58. > :18:03.might need a bit of extra help. It is that simple. I agree with so much
:18:04. > :18:08.of what he just said. If problem is if you are trying to integrate
:18:09. > :18:12.people, they become so much more difficult if you've got the sort of
:18:13. > :18:18.numbers that you have had over the last 15 years or so. Of course I
:18:19. > :18:21.want people to integrate. I'm a third generation immigrant myself.
:18:22. > :18:26.Vicky, this integration is the one it boils down to. People look at
:18:27. > :18:30.certain groups, not always recent groups, but certainly communities,
:18:31. > :18:34.and say they seem to be living separate lives. Isn't that a
:18:35. > :18:40.relevant issue? Possibly. Society is founded on everybody making their
:18:41. > :18:45.own sacrifices. We don't always get what we want. Society works when
:18:46. > :18:50.people are willing to lay down some of their preferences. My concern is
:18:51. > :18:54.a lot of the debate is that there is a fear that people are coming here
:18:55. > :19:01.to take from us. Are there groups and if you can say where they are
:19:02. > :19:04.concerns for you We read a lot about communities tensions that arise
:19:05. > :19:07.because certain groups want to live one way and other groups another. We
:19:08. > :19:14.have an essential British national character which will be enhanced by
:19:15. > :19:18.other community groups, people from different ethnic backgrounds,
:19:19. > :19:22.including Jewish immigrants, my own background, can import into the
:19:23. > :19:27.country and be integrated as a consequence of being here. My
:19:28. > :19:33.grandfather came here at the turn of the century, a Russian imgrant. He
:19:34. > :19:37.fought in the war and wanted to be nationalised. As much as he
:19:38. > :19:43.maintained all his Jewish traditions by the same token he wanted to make
:19:44. > :19:49.an active contribution to British life. I love his accents and I'm
:19:50. > :19:52.going to touch on that later. Polish-Scottish, and that's Britain.
:19:53. > :19:55.He is successful. If you say you want professional people to come
:19:56. > :20:00.from these countries, you are going to drain the countries of those
:20:01. > :20:05.professional people. I remember a Mayor of s of those professional
:20:06. > :20:08.people. I remember a Mayor of a rand -- a Mayor of a city in Poland
:20:09. > :20:11.coming to Peterborough and begging Polish people to go home, saying we
:20:12. > :20:15.have jobs and you are the skillful people. I remember a female doctor,
:20:16. > :20:21.she was a brain surgeon and she earned more money in England picking
:20:22. > :20:26.potatoes than they would in Poland. How due feel about that then? Well,
:20:27. > :20:34.I think we should... It sounds like it is good for Britain but bad for
:20:35. > :20:38.those countries. On integration, look, in Tower Hamlets I remember
:20:39. > :20:43.going to a building where there was a religious building, if you like,
:20:44. > :20:50.and on one layer you could see a long time ago it was a Hugenot
:20:51. > :20:55.church and then a German Protestant Church and then it became a
:20:56. > :20:58.synagogue. And now it is ch and then it became a synagogue. And now it is
:20:59. > :21:01.a mosque - the very same building. Communities get together and for
:21:02. > :21:05.security you need to be around people like yourself. Once you get
:21:06. > :21:09.financially stable and you learn the language, you move on. If you want
:21:10. > :21:15.to make a film about multiculturalism, why not go to
:21:16. > :21:18.Golders Green? We went to Tower Hamlets. Golders Green is
:21:19. > :21:23.multicultural but they are very well-to-do. Yes. People move on. As
:21:24. > :21:28.soon as they become more economically solvent, they move.
:21:29. > :21:32.When Jewish people first came to Manchester, they all lived near the
:21:33. > :21:36.railway station and as they improved they could afford better housing.
:21:37. > :21:41.It's the same with the later waves of immigration in the '60s. You
:21:42. > :21:45.lived where you got off the train and as your prospects improved you
:21:46. > :21:50.moved beyond it. If we have this debate in a few years and see where
:21:51. > :21:54.things have moved on. Thank you very much. And thank you to our
:21:55. > :22:03.contributors via webcam. Our vote is still open. The question is
:22:04. > :22:12.immigration good for Britain? Is mass immigration good for Britain?
:22:13. > :22:17.You have 20 minutes before the vote closes.
:22:18. > :22:21.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live, is Simon Reeve on the road to
:22:22. > :22:27.salvation. You're going to Wong way, this is
:22:28. > :22:31.the pilgrims' way to Canterbury. It is this way.
:22:32. > :22:34.To Canterbury. It is this way. -- going to wrong way. Children at a
:22:35. > :22:38.primary school in the West Midlands have been told to stop using slang
:22:39. > :22:47.words from their Black Country dialect to halt what the school has
:22:48. > :22:53.called a decline in standards. Phrases the include I core do that
:22:54. > :23:00.and "it wor me". Some parents support the ban but others say it is
:23:01. > :23:04.snobbish and insulting. I think it is disgusting trying to teach them
:23:05. > :23:09.how to talk. In the classroom it doesn't help with reading, writing
:23:10. > :23:13.and grammar. A We should be proud of our Black Country language. It is
:23:14. > :23:17.the best and we are friendly. Because of the Black Countryisms
:23:18. > :23:20.that we all use, which is fine, it makes it difficult for them to spell
:23:21. > :23:26.the words as they should. . They should be allowed to do whatever
:23:27. > :23:32.they want to talk. I can talk properly if I wannoo. Poet and
:23:33. > :23:42.one-time poet himself Benjamin Zephaniah is a firm fan of slang.
:23:43. > :23:48.Here's his Sunday stand. You cannot control the English
:23:49. > :23:52.language. It is an ever evolving entity that cannot be tamed. No
:23:53. > :23:57.matter how you file or how frustrating it can be, language will
:23:58. > :24:04.not behave in the way we want. So let's stop worrying or centring,
:24:05. > :24:11.accept that we'll never control it, and instead celebrate its freedom.
:24:12. > :24:18.Attempts by some schools to ban slang is a kind of linguistic
:24:19. > :24:23.fascism. What kids may suppress in the classroom will only burst out in
:24:24. > :24:26.the corridors. I understand the concerns that some have and I
:24:27. > :24:31.acknowledge that the scale of change seems to be growing. Maybe it is
:24:32. > :24:37.down to immigration. Maybe it is that class thing. But nothing will
:24:38. > :24:42.stop it. So embrace it. As long as you have a basic understanding of
:24:43. > :24:50.the language and good grammar, the rest is open to change. Of course,
:24:51. > :24:54.course, class has a huge part to play in this debate. The queen's
:24:55. > :24:59.English, as it is called, is only really spoken by the ruling classes.
:25:00. > :25:04.They don't seem to have accents. They were all educated in the same
:25:05. > :25:09.way, so they sound the same wherever they live. Whereas the working
:25:10. > :25:15.classes of Britain have strong regional accents and slang. So
:25:16. > :25:19.historically, those that use slang were looked down upon and if we are
:25:20. > :25:26.really honest it is still like that today. The English language will
:25:27. > :25:32.change as the country changes. It always has done and it always will
:25:33. > :25:36.do. Protectionism is futile. Once you've accepted that, you will
:25:37. > :25:47.understand why this island language has such a truly global appeal. And
:25:48. > :25:54.that is groovy. No, that's wicked. No, that's splendid. Benjamin can
:25:55. > :26:00.definitely talk proper when he wants to. Do you agree with him?
:26:01. > :26:05.You can make your point via phone, text or online. Online. Vicky? I
:26:06. > :26:11.disagree with Benjamin. I do think slang is great but educating kids is
:26:12. > :26:18.about teaching them context, about equipping them to navigate different
:26:19. > :26:25.social situations. I think slang is a personal preference. In ethical
:26:26. > :26:29.ethical and theological terms, there'll be times when we need to
:26:30. > :26:33.modify the way we express ourselves. I think kids need to be taught that
:26:34. > :26:37.they will come across a diverse body of people and situations in life
:26:38. > :26:41.where they have to step outside that comfort zone. So for me it is like
:26:42. > :26:47.the gears in learning to drive. You need lots of gears to navigate lots
:26:48. > :26:52.of different terrain. It doesn't minimise or lessen second gear that
:26:53. > :26:56.you have fifth gear. You need to know what's appropriate. The head
:26:57. > :26:59.teacher said, all the staff from that school, all the staff from the
:27:00. > :27:03.Black Country, there are times when we need to use formal language, when
:27:04. > :27:07.presenting or writing a letter. It is to get the best possible results
:27:08. > :27:15.from our children. This is not an attack on local culture. But, they
:27:16. > :27:21.feel they need it. I want to use a different metaphor. It is a true
:27:22. > :27:24.story. Somebody I know bought a very expensive painting by somebody that
:27:25. > :27:31.is well known. It stood on the wall for a while and it started to peel
:27:32. > :27:36.off, because they didn't know how to treat the base, the canvas and to
:27:37. > :27:39.prime it. They didn't know the basics about painting. It is
:27:40. > :27:43.important to know the basics of language. I'm not saying you
:27:44. > :27:46.shouldn't teach that. That. You should teach good grammar and how
:27:47. > :27:49.the language works. Once you understand how the language works,
:27:50. > :27:55.it helps you understand other languages. Languages. I speed a bit
:27:56. > :28:00.of Urdu and Chinese, because Anand the language. But if you only stuck
:28:01. > :28:03.to the language and you banned slang and regional accents, you wouldn't
:28:04. > :28:08.get poetry or music or the literature we are so proud of. You
:28:09. > :28:15.would ban that Polish guy from speaking with a Polish-Scottish
:28:16. > :28:20.accents. Is it about making everyone peek the same way? A kind of
:28:21. > :28:27.linguistic fascism, to send letters home to say you shouldn't use these
:28:28. > :28:31.phrases. I object to the use of the word fascism. There is an using
:28:32. > :28:36.earness to use this definition when something is banned or not is an
:28:37. > :28:39.using earness to use this definition when something is banned or not
:28:40. > :28:43.acceptedment -- or not accepted. We are an island nation. But in school
:28:44. > :28:49.it is a dereliction of an educationalist's duty not to teach
:28:50. > :28:53.children. They have to know about basic literacy. Slang can be a
:28:54. > :28:58.beautiful thing and poetic but they have to learn about context. If they
:28:59. > :29:03.are writing, they need to be taught that using inverted commas, using
:29:04. > :29:11.direct speech. I'm not saying don't do, that but you don't ban slang. It
:29:12. > :29:16.is important to understand words. Isn't the idea that they just have
:29:17. > :29:22.to, maybe it is only on people out of the South East that they have to
:29:23. > :29:37.separate their regional dialect from RP. We have to be careful not to mix
:29:38. > :29:40.up accents with slang. Studies have shown that most young people know
:29:41. > :29:46.when it is appropriate to use different types of language. Aren't
:29:47. > :29:51.the teachers saying that they don't? If they don't, they need to teach
:29:52. > :29:56.them better. I love teachers, this is not a slur against teachers. But
:29:57. > :30:02.I'd do think once you teach them the basics, you can say, if you are
:30:03. > :30:05.showing them literature, you have to explain what Shakespeare was doing
:30:06. > :30:12.because that is a certain type of accent. I want to bring in my guest
:30:13. > :30:21.from Dudley in the West Midlands. Is this about regional dialects slang
:30:22. > :30:25.as opposed to accent? Is there a point, that you need to be able to
:30:26. > :30:36.separate the way you speak locally from formal English informal
:30:37. > :30:40.situations? -- in formal situations. Definitely, it does depend on
:30:41. > :30:44.context and the situation that you are in. I think would pick up
:30:45. > :30:49.multiple forms of language through socialisation as we are growing up.
:30:50. > :30:53.It is about the way we adapt and adjust instinctively depending on
:30:54. > :30:57.the situation itself. Can you give me some examples of slang where you
:30:58. > :31:04.can see where the score might want to ban them? On their list, it says
:31:05. > :31:11.a few damaging phrases, I personally don't see them as damaging, it is
:31:12. > :31:16.just part of our dialect. It is just the way we speak around here. People
:31:17. > :31:21.should be proud of the background and their roots. And accent and a
:31:22. > :31:27.dialect is all part of your identity, and identity and being
:31:28. > :31:35.unique is key to an individual. Lindsay Johns joins us now, you
:31:36. > :31:40.teach young people in Peckham the difference between standard English
:31:41. > :31:43.and slang, I gather. If we are talking about youth speak at opposed
:31:44. > :31:48.to a regional accent, how many politicians are trying to Street up
:31:49. > :31:53.the way they talk, why should young people told you should not be able
:31:54. > :31:57.to talk the way you talk naturally? Whether you like it or not, language
:31:58. > :32:04.is power. I'd tell my young people that words are the best weapons they
:32:05. > :32:07.can have in their arsenal. We have a jerk tolerant policy to street slang
:32:08. > :32:11.because the sad truth is, it makes the young people who use it sound as
:32:12. > :32:17.if they have had an exceedingly painful frontal lobotomy. It makes
:32:18. > :32:23.them sound stupid and uneducated. Why does it make them sound
:32:24. > :32:30.uneducated? Is that not an unfair judgement? I don't think so. Young
:32:31. > :32:33.people's opportunities and job prospects are affected by the way
:32:34. > :32:38.they choose to speak. I want the young people I meant to be taken
:32:39. > :32:42.seriously, with the power to make decisions that can affect their
:32:43. > :32:47.lives, for example in college and job interviews. We should only be
:32:48. > :32:52.judged on the calibre of our minds and contents of our hearts but we
:32:53. > :32:56.don't live in an ideal world. The way you speak, the more the people
:32:57. > :33:00.in positions of authority and power will take you seriously. Street
:33:01. > :33:06.slang is spectacular self sabotaged because it renders young people
:33:07. > :33:08.unintelligible and therefore often unemployable by mainstream adult
:33:09. > :33:13.society. It leads to marginalisation,
:33:14. > :33:19.disenfranchisement. I want Benjamin to respond to those points. Self
:33:20. > :33:24.sabotaged? When I was young, Street slang was survival. We wanted to
:33:25. > :33:28.exclude people from conversations, include people, it is what young
:33:29. > :33:34.people do. I have to stress, I am not against young people having a
:33:35. > :33:39.good education and understanding the language but to ban slang... You
:33:40. > :33:45.have to teach them when it is appropriate. You cannot make music
:33:46. > :33:48.sounding like the Queen. The only person who speaks the Queen's
:33:49. > :33:55.English is the Queen and a few other friends. The of the country is full
:33:56. > :34:02.of regional accents. Is it about class, everybody has to aid the way
:34:03. > :34:09.a minority talk -- ape the way. We have just seen the word selfie added
:34:10. > :34:16.to the dictionary but it is language that does include. You said some of
:34:17. > :34:22.it is inclusive of special interest language can leave people on the
:34:23. > :34:29.outside. Jonathan Greene is a slang lexicographer and author. We're
:34:30. > :34:36.talking about real people's lives being affected, if they don't have
:34:37. > :34:42.the articulacy of people who speak a different kind of standard English.
:34:43. > :34:47.Benjamin said that virtually everything I could say, possibly
:34:48. > :34:51.better. Slang is the register of the English language committees like
:34:52. > :34:59.dialect, leg received pronunciation, posh language, BBC,
:35:00. > :35:05.it is just one more type. James Murray made this clear in 1884, the
:35:06. > :35:14.first editor of the dictionary. From what it is worth, I know 1700
:35:15. > :35:18.different words for lovemaking. I would not recite them in a formal
:35:19. > :35:22.interview. As Benjamin said so rightly, if you go into a formal
:35:23. > :35:26.interview and if you don't know how to behave in that context, you have
:35:27. > :35:35.to be taught. It has nothing whatsoever to do with slang. I can't
:35:36. > :35:44.bear this snub is approach to the discussion --
:35:45. > :35:53.we have to accept that linguistic and literary interests come from
:35:54. > :35:57.social media. The art of conversation is buying, they hardly
:35:58. > :36:05.read books any more. -- art of conversation is dying. Literacy is
:36:06. > :36:09.the passport to self advancement. Because they only know how to
:36:10. > :36:13.convert through digital media, and how to reduce words, not spell them
:36:14. > :36:16.properly, we are talking about schools arming them with the tools
:36:17. > :36:20.that they need and they have to understand that if banning slang in
:36:21. > :36:23.a lesson is one way of advancing that knowledge as the standard
:36:24. > :36:31.English, then so be it. It doesn't mean that out in the corridor,
:36:32. > :36:38.somebody will be policing them. It depends what the lesson is about,
:36:39. > :36:44.why can't the lesson be about slang? You are doing against yourself, that
:36:45. > :36:51.is context. I said context is very important. If somebody has dialogue
:36:52. > :37:00.and they use slang, are you going to ban the novel, band that chapter?
:37:01. > :37:03.Chris says some dialects can be pretty impenetrable outside their
:37:04. > :37:07.locality, it is not about class, it is being understood. Karen says we
:37:08. > :37:11.should not use language that excludes others, whether it is slang
:37:12. > :37:13.or overly formal. And Jemima says kids are bright enough to know the
:37:14. > :37:19.difference between slang and talking proper. Dennis says let local accent
:37:20. > :37:22.be retained and used because they are part of the colour of our
:37:23. > :37:28.English outage. You have been voting at home, is
:37:29. > :37:32.immigration good for Britain. The vote is closing so please don't text
:37:33. > :37:36.as your vote will not count but you may still be judged. We will bring
:37:37. > :37:42.you the result at the end of the show. -- may still be charged.
:37:43. > :37:45.The Archbishop of York says it is not time to crack open the champagne
:37:46. > :37:49.just yet, but it looks as though there will soon be women bishops in
:37:50. > :37:53.the Church of England. The General Synod of the church this week pave
:37:54. > :37:58.the way for a big change following years of bitter dispute. So why is
:37:59. > :38:01.it such a big deal for women to become bishops, or indeed leaders in
:38:02. > :38:06.religions? In the unity of the holy spirit, we
:38:07. > :38:10.all stand before you in earth and heaven.
:38:11. > :38:14.There have been women priests in the Church of England for almost 20
:38:15. > :38:20.years. But making the move upwards to Bishop has been barred so far.
:38:21. > :38:29.That now looks set to change after Wednesday's historic vote. 378
:38:30. > :38:33.against eight. The decision still has to be rubber-stamped at another
:38:34. > :38:39.meeting next year. But many Anglicans hail it as a significant
:38:40. > :38:44.victory. Among those celebrating is Archbishop Tutu from South Africa,
:38:45. > :38:59.who was in London this week. We have always got to thank women for their
:39:00. > :39:04.patients. -- they have been extraordinary in their generosity to
:39:05. > :39:11.us and then, when we have been blind. -- to ask men. But let's not
:39:12. > :39:26.say you P! --! There will be an independent
:39:27. > :39:30.arbitrator to settle disputes. It is not just the Church of England which
:39:31. > :39:34.has been debating the role of women. This reverend will become the first
:39:35. > :39:38.female bishop in the Church of Ireland next week. The Vatican
:39:39. > :39:44.firmly quashed recent rumours that the Pope was considering creating a
:39:45. > :39:48.female cardinal as nonsense. Outside of Christianity, other religions
:39:49. > :39:53.have shown movement of attitudes to women as leaders. There were female
:39:54. > :39:57.rabbis in nonorthodox Judaism, and in Islam, women have prayers in
:39:58. > :40:01.mixed congregations in the UK, although not in mosques. Would all
:40:02. > :40:05.of religion benefit from being led by women? Or would such a rolling
:40:06. > :40:14.back of tradition and a step too far? -- be a step too far?
:40:15. > :40:19.Here you are, a strong, opinionated woman, don't we need more people
:40:20. > :40:22.like you running religions? I get to be irritated by the fact that this
:40:23. > :40:25.has become almost apolitical argument. This is not about
:40:26. > :40:29.discrimination and women should accept that but it has become an
:40:30. > :40:34.argument for modern secular feminism to beat its chest about. We almost
:40:35. > :40:38.objectify women because we are using them as a tactical ploy to encourage
:40:39. > :40:41.people to go to church with I am not a shareholder in the chair
:40:42. > :40:48.judgement, being Jewish, I don't go to the services. -- in the church
:40:49. > :40:55.argument. You wrote thousands of years of tradition and historical
:40:56. > :40:59.interpretations of the Scriptures. Yes, female rabbis, but they played
:41:00. > :41:03.around with a lot of Jewish law as well. That is denuding the religion,
:41:04. > :41:08.deconstructing the religion and not giving us something to pass onto
:41:09. > :41:12.generations. I would love to know what you base that on, in terms of
:41:13. > :41:19.Judaism and Christianity, you look at the ancient stories, the
:41:20. > :41:25.heroines, people who were lauded by the apostles. Deborah was the judge
:41:26. > :41:30.of the entire nation, she commanded the Army. She was leading everybody
:41:31. > :41:34.over the priests. We are not deconstructing a religion, we are
:41:35. > :41:38.excavating, we are going to restore men and women to their rightful
:41:39. > :41:48.place. Genesis says men and women were created equal in the image of
:41:49. > :41:51.God. As our token man in today's discussion, Benjamin, what do you
:41:52. > :41:56.make of it? In any other field, the idea that women can't hold positions
:41:57. > :42:01.of leadership would be remarkable. In most major religions it is still
:42:02. > :42:04.a huge deal. Not just positions of leadership, not so long ago there
:42:05. > :42:11.were debates about women running panel shows and talk shows. Still
:42:12. > :42:18.going on, believe me! I think it is very sad, I am not really into
:42:19. > :42:23.religion. I believe in God without religion, I'm countered that from a
:42:24. > :42:28.Rastafarian path. My belief is that religions... I was going to say
:42:29. > :42:32.man-made, they are made by people. The real thing is having a
:42:33. > :42:36.relationship with God. If you believe God is about equality and
:42:37. > :42:42.treating everybody equal, I don't understand why there is such a fuss
:42:43. > :42:46.about having women priests. It just makes full a good multiculturalism,
:42:47. > :42:50.I don't mean that in terms of race now, just in the way that the church
:42:51. > :42:57.operates and communicates with its people. I would like to bring in the
:42:58. > :43:03.director of From, and Anglican organisation and a lay member of the
:43:04. > :43:09.General Synod. -- the director of Reform. You are opposed to women
:43:10. > :43:12.bishops. People are asking, why? Most people in society at large
:43:13. > :43:18.think it would get more bums on seats in churches, if nothing else.
:43:19. > :43:23.I am not against women bishops but I do think that we need to ensure that
:43:24. > :43:28.our churches are free to follow the way in which they believe the Bible
:43:29. > :43:33.teaches. I believe the Bible teaches that we need men and women in our
:43:34. > :43:41.churches, but we need women who are submitting to the men. You
:43:42. > :43:47.personally don't support women bishops in your own view of
:43:48. > :43:51.Christianity? That is right, I would not want to have a woman leading my
:43:52. > :43:56.church but I want women involved in the leadership of churches. It is an
:43:57. > :44:02.argument that one hears in many religions, that women do have a
:44:03. > :44:07.status, not that they are not equal. What do you make of those arguments?
:44:08. > :44:10.I think they are insidious. Everything from me about the work of
:44:11. > :44:14.what Jesus did in his death and resurrection was to retain the good
:44:15. > :44:19.parts of creation and lose the bad parts. I look at genesis, the fall,
:44:20. > :44:22.the fact there is this hierarchy instigated between men and women.
:44:23. > :44:29.For me, that is completely undone by the resurrection. In 3.2 to it says
:44:30. > :44:34.there is no Jew or Greek, no male or female, all are one in Christ and
:44:35. > :44:37.Jesus. And that new Testament paradigms is saying we are restored
:44:38. > :44:42.back to that Genesis equality, male and female, note different in power
:44:43. > :44:47.or all, you are gifted to do what ever you can do and that is
:44:48. > :44:50.reflecting the true image of God -- in power for role. Anything that
:44:51. > :44:56.suppresses that is allowing what happened to Jesus to continue. To
:44:57. > :45:03.put a label on it is horrendous. What made me sad about what Suzi
:45:04. > :45:06.said is that women submit to men. Let Benjamin finish. I'm the man
:45:07. > :45:10.here and it goes against everything that we are trying to tell our young
:45:11. > :45:16.girls, that you don't have to submit to men. Angela, we look back, there
:45:17. > :45:19.were slaves in the Bible. There were slaves at the time of the core rant
:45:20. > :45:23.no-one is saying there should be slaves now. People say it is the
:45:24. > :45:29.same for women, why define their status by a biological factor, and
:45:30. > :45:33.that modern society doesn't have to rule our lives. The women you quoted
:45:34. > :45:40.from the Old Testament were hugely respected. We are not talking about
:45:41. > :45:45.women being devalued in religion. In Judaism they can give spiritual
:45:46. > :45:52.advice and hold seminars. Why can't they lead us then? It is part of the
:45:53. > :45:58.historic tradition. It is the oldest religion, 5,000 years old, if it is
:45:59. > :46:05.cocontinue, it must continue in a form... What about slavery? It is a
:46:06. > :46:10.fatuous argument to equate slavery with women who want to become
:46:11. > :46:15.Bishops or Rabbis. If you are a woman in the Church of England,
:46:16. > :46:19.their entire ministry, their vocation, has been cut off. I want
:46:20. > :46:32.to briefly let Suzi respond to these concerns. It is ridiculous to
:46:33. > :46:36.to briefly let Suzi respond to these it is really important to say that
:46:37. > :46:39.we are not, that submission is something you can only do freely.
:46:40. > :46:42.This isn't about subordination or suppression but a free
:46:43. > :46:45.This isn't about subordination or It is about asking men to take
:46:46. > :46:50.self-sacrificial responsibility in their families and in the church
:46:51. > :46:56.family. That's something our society desperately needs. Thank you. I want
:46:57. > :46:59.to bring in a different perspective from the Incluesive Mosque
:47:00. > :47:01.to bring in a different perspective Initiative. Plenty of people have
:47:02. > :47:08.views about what Islam has to say about the views women. You allow
:47:09. > :47:12.prayers to be led by women. What reaction have you had from men?
:47:13. > :47:17.Firstly in Islam ritual prayer is such an integral part of a Muslim's
:47:18. > :47:22.religious experience, and we believe Muslim prayer is a direct connection
:47:23. > :47:28.to God soft. The leadership role in prayer, though it is functionary, is
:47:29. > :47:33.symbolic when we say it that only men can do it. For me we see there
:47:34. > :47:37.is a days parity between God's justice as revealed in the Koran and
:47:38. > :47:40.the Muslim scripture and the social experience of women in mosques and
:47:41. > :47:46.in prayer spaces in the UK and in the world today. So briefly, are men
:47:47. > :47:51.positive about this? Do you think you are making head-way with getting
:47:52. > :47:55.leadership roles? I think we've had fantastic support from both men and
:47:56. > :47:59.women. We've got a Twitter account, a Facebook account. The majority of
:48:00. > :48:04.the comments are positive saying thank God you are here, we lover to
:48:05. > :48:09.see what you are doing. I realise it is not as simple as that but we've
:48:10. > :48:15.had a fantastic response. Thank you. Benjamin, it is not all going to be
:48:16. > :48:21.solved with a Twitter account but it is an interesting start. When they
:48:22. > :48:25.come along, religions are, they are always revolutionary. Judaism, Islam
:48:26. > :48:29.was very revolutionary. People had this idea it was oppressing women.
:48:30. > :48:34.It was liberating women at the time. If you were in that recently and a
:48:35. > :48:38.you were born a girl, they would kill you before Islam came along in
:48:39. > :48:44.certain parts of Asia. Churches have to be revolutionary now. I think got
:48:45. > :48:49.wants us to be revolutionary. You you can look at the things that in
:48:50. > :48:55.their day was revolutionary, like women. The way Jesus taught women
:48:56. > :49:00.was incredible. Women weren't able to get the education that would
:49:01. > :49:04.enable them to become Rabbis. Angela, you don't think your status
:49:05. > :49:10.today, to be out of the home and to be allowed to be a prominent person
:49:11. > :49:21.in life, you don't think that the status of women has changed? We are
:49:22. > :49:24.politicising this. Women are exulted in Judaism. We were respected for
:49:25. > :49:30.what we do. What do you think your status would be in a theocratic
:49:31. > :49:39.state? It doesn't bother me that my communal leaders are men. I don't
:49:40. > :49:43.feel -- a Rabbi has a critical role in the community. The problem with
:49:44. > :49:47.the equality debate is it always wants to equate men lem with the
:49:48. > :49:50.equality debate is it always wants to equate men and women - sorry
:49:51. > :49:53.about the cliche, but about the level ate men and women - sorry
:49:54. > :49:55.about the cliche, but about the level playing field - this
:49:56. > :49:57.discussion is about history and traditional interpretation. I take
:49:58. > :50:00.the point. No, but we are going to ALL TALK AT ONCE
:50:01. > :50:08.Other panellists suggest, what is the way forward? Can you see a time
:50:09. > :50:13.where women hold leadership roles in faiths. Maybe the economic crash
:50:14. > :50:18.wouldn't have happened if more women were running those institutions?
:50:19. > :50:25.Women and men are different but it doesn't mean they can be, that they
:50:26. > :50:30.can not be equal. It doesn't mean there's going to be a feminist
:50:31. > :50:34.revolution if a woman is running a mosque. But it will mean it will be
:50:35. > :50:43.a more representative organisation. And that can only be good. Briefly.
:50:44. > :50:49.There's so much work for feminism to do. If this is about God and
:50:50. > :50:55.creating, people in his image to fulfil their potential, religion
:50:56. > :51:05.should be leading the way. We're not disenfranchised by it. There is no
:51:06. > :51:10.clamour in Jude aidism for female Rabbis. I suspect this is an issue
:51:11. > :51:14.we'll still be debating in a few years.
:51:15. > :51:19.For centuries pilgrimage was one of the greatest adventures on earth
:51:20. > :51:26.involving risking life and limb in epic journeys across this country
:51:27. > :51:34.and aboard. Simon Reeve follows in the footsteps of the early pilgrims.
:51:35. > :51:38.He talks about the effect on him. My journey takes me from the north of
:51:39. > :51:45.England to Canterbury and then through France into northern Spain.
:51:46. > :51:49.Across the Alps to Italy and on to the eternal city of Rome. I travel
:51:50. > :51:54.east into Turkey, across the Mediterranean, into the Holy Land
:51:55. > :52:02.and on to my, into the Holy Land and on to my final destination -
:52:03. > :52:06.Jerusalem. It is a gob smacker, a breath takerawayer. I think the
:52:07. > :52:11.reason people are going on pilgrimages now is because they are
:52:12. > :52:16.looking for some sort of purpose and meaning in our life that is lost
:52:17. > :52:19.from even in everyday religious experience but certainly from
:52:20. > :52:23.everyday life for secular folk like me. And that was part of what
:52:24. > :52:27.fascinated me and drew me to this subject in the first place, the idea
:52:28. > :52:32.that our ancestors aren't all that different from us. They wanted to
:52:33. > :52:36.get out and about and have an exciting time, frankly. 700 years
:52:37. > :52:41.ago Lincoln was one of the largest cities in Britain. It was also a
:52:42. > :52:45.major centre of pilgrimage, with travellers coming from across the
:52:46. > :53:01.land to it have it one of the great wonders of the age. This is
:53:02. > :53:04.spectacular. Just imagine the holy shock a Medieval pilgrim would have
:53:05. > :53:10.felt arriving here for the first time and seeing a building of this
:53:11. > :53:16.size. This scale. The sense of achievement that you get from
:53:17. > :53:22.completelying what we -- completing what we might term a pilgrimage can
:53:23. > :53:29.be enormous. If you have trekked now in the 21st century across northern
:53:30. > :53:32.Spain for example, then arriving in Santiago de-Kos Ella, as tens of
:53:33. > :53:39.thousands of people are doing every year is an event in your life that
:53:40. > :53:45.you are never going to forget. Look at it. The light streaming down. It
:53:46. > :53:52.looks ethereal. I feel as a person without faith in the presence of
:53:53. > :54:00.something holy. It was very moving for me as a nonreligious person, or
:54:01. > :54:06.at least a person whose faith has lapsed to be allowed the opportunity
:54:07. > :54:13.to get up close with the fundamental beliefs and hopes of us really. I
:54:14. > :54:18.was very keen to learn about the more rigorous, tougher aspects of
:54:19. > :54:24.pilgrimage and find out how our hardy ancestors did it. There are
:54:25. > :54:30.numerous accounts of Pym grimes crossing the Alps who lost their
:54:31. > :54:35.companions to exposure. The snow can be 10 feet deep in winter. In the
:54:36. > :54:43.10th century even an Archbishop froze to death here while making a
:54:44. > :54:48.pilgrimage to Rome. I met some incredibly ribald characters along
:54:49. > :54:53.the journey. One of the people who springs to mind in a chap called
:54:54. > :55:01.David. An American. He was a former drug addict. I met him wearing
:55:02. > :55:06.biblical outfit in a biblically inspired village inside the modern
:55:07. > :55:09.town of as if wreath. L outfit in a biblically inspired village inside
:55:10. > :55:12.the modern town of as if wreath. -- of Nazareth. Nazareth. My own path
:55:13. > :55:18.was self-centred and it led me to the point of death, with an overdose
:55:19. > :55:23.on drugs. I was dying in a hospital. Look at you now. I'm a little bit
:55:24. > :55:27.heavier and healthier. It has led me from wearing pants to a dress every
:55:28. > :55:34.day. There were several moments on the journey when I became very
:55:35. > :55:43.emotional. So much of who we are, that is where it is from. And that
:55:44. > :55:50.is an incredible thing. My family and friends and for travellers. I
:55:51. > :55:54.think a journey in and of itself can be a magnificent thing. I think from
:55:55. > :56:00.the journeys I've been doing for the last few years, I myself have got a
:56:01. > :56:04.great sense of identity and meaning from them. I think that's what a lot
:56:05. > :56:12.of us are looking for in our lives. I think pilgrimage can offer that,
:56:13. > :56:20.whether you're a believer or not. That's on 9 o'clock on Tuesday 3rd
:56:21. > :56:26.December on BBC Two. You've been voting on is asylum and
:56:27. > :56:34.immigration good for Britain? William says the NHS can't cope with
:56:35. > :56:39.the people here already, why why bring in more? Penny says we can't
:56:40. > :56:42.support any more people. Karen says Eastern European migrants will be
:56:43. > :56:47.coming to work hard, not claim benefits. And Matt says immigration
:56:48. > :56:54.has made Britain. I couldn't think of anything worse than living in a
:56:55. > :56:59.homogenised monoculture. There is this concern there. It is a shame.
:57:00. > :57:04.In the Christian tradition good says there is an impetus on us to welcome
:57:05. > :57:08.the foreigner or stranger and that is the sign of a good society. If we
:57:09. > :57:14.are that closed in our mind set, that worries me. It is a
:57:15. > :57:22.self-fulfilling prophecy. Certain fear factors are being repeddled and
:57:23. > :57:27.that could be the fear of austerity and what will happen come January
:57:28. > :57:34.and people are looking to the here and now rather than can immigration
:57:35. > :57:37.help our society. The ones you read were about the new wave of what's
:57:38. > :57:42.going to happen next year. Somebody talked about the NHS. If immigration
:57:43. > :57:47.is bad for Britain, is the NHS bad, is our bus service that bad? Are our
:57:48. > :57:52.nurses that bad? Is our language that bad? Immigration is what made
:57:53. > :57:57.Britain. I think people shouldn't queues the issues and be frightened
:57:58. > :58:01.by what can happen in the future. We've got to manage things like
:58:02. > :58:06.we've got to manage our lives. Thank you all very much indeed. Thank you
:58:07. > :58:10.to everyone who has taken part in the discussions, to my webcamers, to
:58:11. > :58:15.Beeching beef, Benjamin Zephaniah and Angela Epstein. And thank you
:58:16. > :58:19.for your texts and calls. The text and phone lines are closed but
:58:20. > :58:24.continue the conversation online. The links are on our we are site.
:58:25. > :58:32.That's it for Sunday Morning Live for this series. Next week Fern
:58:33. > :58:37.Britton meets Susan Boyle. From me, Samira Ahmed, and all of us on the
:58:38. > :59:12.Sunday Morning Live team, thank you for your company. Goodbye.
:59:13. > :59:16.But you're saying the scale of theft is huge.
:59:17. > :59:20.The African Union claims that corruption alone