:00:14. > :00:24.major isn't -- Islamic organisation says Muslims are living in fear. Is
:00:24. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:48.it because of an unfair portrayal in Morning Live. Also on the programme:
:00:48. > :00:53.Jesus kicked moneychangers out of the temple, but this week the
:00:53. > :00:58.Archbishop of Canterbury said the church should invite lenders in.
:00:58. > :01:04.And as the Pope welcomes 2 million young pilgrims to a gathering in
:01:04. > :01:09.Brazil, we examine whether pilgrimage is still relevant. My
:01:09. > :01:13.guests this week are Douglas Murray, a journalist and author, and
:01:13. > :01:19.his latest book argues that we are too reluctant to criticise Islam.
:01:19. > :01:25.Anne Atkins is also a vicar and knows more than most about church
:01:25. > :01:33.finances. And Mehdi Hasan is the political director of the Huffington
:01:33. > :01:43.Post UK. We want to know what you think. You can join us through
:01:43. > :01:51.
:01:51. > :01:54.Many in the Muslim community in Britain say they have been alarmed
:01:54. > :02:00.at what they call an unprecedented escalation of violence following the
:02:00. > :02:03.backlash after the murder of Lee Rigby. There has been an increase in
:02:03. > :02:10.reported hate crime and a newly asked weeks there have been three
:02:10. > :02:13.bomb attacks on mosques. This week, the Muslim Council of Britain Road
:02:13. > :02:17.to the Home Secretary calling for a co-ordinated response. They say it
:02:17. > :02:23.cannot be right that a minority is allowed to be targeted in that way.
:02:23. > :02:26.The government says it takes any such attacks seriously, but some
:02:26. > :02:34.muslins say the planting bombs is symptomatic of a deeper problem in
:02:34. > :02:44.society. Douglas Murray thinks we are too soft on Islam. First, Mehdi
:02:44. > :02:47.
:02:47. > :02:52.I love this country. As a Muslim, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
:02:53. > :02:57.The sad fact is that these days in Britain you can say things about
:02:57. > :03:01.Islam and Muslims that you can't say about any other minority. Imagine if
:03:01. > :03:09.you picked up a newspaper to discover a headline saying Christmas
:03:09. > :03:15.is banned, it offends dues. Or maybe, a gay plot to kill me -- the
:03:15. > :03:19.Pope. You would be shocked. Outraged, even. But change the word
:03:19. > :03:25.gay or black to Muslim and these become very real headlines that have
:03:25. > :03:31.appeared on the front pages of our newspapers. The truth is that the
:03:31. > :03:38.negative stereotyping of what I would say is a pretty powerless and
:03:38. > :03:42.voices minority is now out of control. -- voice less. It is
:03:42. > :03:48.especially evident online, where anti-Ms limp bigotry flourishes. --
:03:48. > :03:53.anti-Muslim. Take it from somebody who has had to deal with a lot of
:03:53. > :03:59.it. Look, this isn't about Islamic beliefs are being given special
:03:59. > :04:06.treatment. It is about Muslims being treated no differently to other
:04:06. > :04:10.minorities. It is about equal treatment, not fear mongering. There
:04:10. > :04:15.is a terror threat to be tackled. But those are the actions of a tiny
:04:15. > :04:20.minority and should not be used to smear the entire Muslim community.
:04:20. > :04:26.Remember, portraying Muslims as different or dangerous has serious
:04:26. > :04:31.repercussions on community relations. In the wake of Lee
:04:32. > :04:36.Rigby's murder, anti-Muslim attacks quadrupled. At least 25 mosques have
:04:36. > :04:40.been attacked. Three of them were tagged with bombs. We need to change
:04:40. > :04:45.the way we talk and write about Islam and Muslims. Believe me when I
:04:45. > :04:52.tell you this we are not in doubt with magically thicker skins than
:04:52. > :04:59.anybody else. What do you think? Are Muslims
:04:59. > :05:04.expected to have thicker skin? Or are they too sensitive? They are not
:05:04. > :05:14.expected to have thinner skin, either. It is important to make sure
:05:14. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:23.that nobody demonises anybody else because of the actions of the few.
:05:23. > :05:31.But if gay people or Jewish people or any other minority had people who
:05:31. > :05:35.had carried out terrorist attacks, I think we would read those headlines.
:05:35. > :05:45.That is the question for our text vote. Our Muslims are being
:05:45. > :05:56.
:05:56. > :06:01.full terms and conditions. You say that it is not about demonising
:06:01. > :06:06.anyone. But the scale of these attacks does suggest that there is a
:06:06. > :06:12.unique problem. Most Muslims are powerless and finding themselves
:06:12. > :06:18.victims of a backlash. I am not sure they are more power less than
:06:18. > :06:24.anybody else. Lots of people feel they have no voice. The idea
:06:24. > :06:29.that... It is important that as you said, in the wake of Lee Rigby, we
:06:29. > :06:37.should not lose sight of the fact that the murder was an important
:06:37. > :06:41.thing. Now there seems to have been a backlash against that. It
:06:41. > :06:46.obviously has to be said that anybody who takes out the action of
:06:46. > :06:51.a minority on a group as a whole has to be condemned. If people think the
:06:51. > :06:55.reaction should be to commit violence against any individual, of
:06:55. > :07:03.course that is wrong. Of course it is wrong. Mehdi, there is a concern
:07:03. > :07:13.about oversensitivity. Is Lamb is not a person and cannot answer
:07:13. > :07:13.
:07:13. > :07:22.questions. Muslims can. Nobody is denying that. A couple of things for
:07:22. > :07:28.Douglas. We can talk about the Woolwich murder. But Mohammed
:07:28. > :07:36.Saleem, a pensioner who was murdered. But we cannot talk about
:07:36. > :07:41.that. That happened a month before the Woolwich attacks. The media
:07:41. > :07:50.headlines all happened beforehand. As for terrorists, let's talk about
:07:51. > :07:58.terrorism. But I am talking about stories about Muslim women's
:07:58. > :08:03.clothing. The Daily Mail runs campaigns for the two weeks.
:08:04. > :08:09.Are these legitimate questions always there in idea that it is
:08:09. > :08:15.racism masquerading as something else? I think Muslims are demonised,
:08:15. > :08:21.without question. I have the misfortune to be on the e-mail list
:08:21. > :08:29.of a friend of mine, and I receive stuff he sends out and some of it is
:08:29. > :08:37.appalling, appalling. It is not really even anti-Muslim. It is sheer
:08:37. > :08:43.racism. A lot of it comes from America. We were in America a few
:08:43. > :08:48.years ago, staying with a lovely family. Over dinner, one of them
:08:48. > :08:52.said, what about this problem with Muslims in your country? We said,
:08:52. > :08:59.what problem? He said, they are all terrorists, aren't they? That is an
:09:00. > :09:05.appalling equation that is there in a lot of people 's minds. It is
:09:05. > :09:10.confusing Asian, Muslim and terrorist. But there is another side
:09:10. > :09:14.to this. A lot of what you were saying, I know Christians would say
:09:14. > :09:22.the same. You can attack Christians in a way that you can't attack any
:09:22. > :09:28.other faith. There are ways in which, for instance, an example...
:09:28. > :09:35.It was over 50 years ago, Ian McKellen tore out bits of the Bible
:09:35. > :09:42.because he said it was anti-gay. No Christian is going to say, he has to
:09:42. > :09:51.be assassinated. You cannot do that with the Koran. I understand that
:09:51. > :09:54.the Koran for Muslims is different, it is wholly in itself. The response
:09:54. > :10:04.underlines the concerns that there is a special treatment required for
:10:04. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:17.muslins. Douglas, how do you see People show themselves in an ugly
:10:17. > :10:22.light on the Internet. But I would say to Mehdi that he should compare
:10:22. > :10:28.his responses on the internets to anybody who has ever criticised
:10:28. > :10:31.Mohammed or the Koran. It is very unsavoury, too. I can assure you
:10:31. > :10:41.that there is a good reason for people to fear that kind of thing
:10:41. > :10:41.
:10:41. > :10:51.because they have seen what happens to come -- critics of Islam. They
:10:51. > :10:51.
:10:51. > :10:56.have seen what happened to Salman Rushdie. In our society, we have
:10:56. > :11:04.internalised this. People are right to be fearful of doing that. There
:11:04. > :11:07.is fear in all sorts of directions. Some of that is legitimate. I take
:11:07. > :11:11.that on board. The difference is we are talking about a minority
:11:11. > :11:16.community which come across Europe, is being targeted by an array of
:11:16. > :11:24.discriminatory laws right parties, media treatment. You can't compare
:11:24. > :11:34.the two. Two years ago in Norway we saw what happened when hysteria
:11:34. > :11:44.
:11:44. > :11:54.reaches a peak. He didn't target Muslims. He said he was a crusader.
:11:54. > :11:57.
:11:57. > :12:03.That is one madman, just as it is... Hang on, hang on. You can't
:12:03. > :12:08.equate one person doing something crazy with the whole of... I am
:12:08. > :12:18.not! I am saying that words have consequences. If we carry on with
:12:18. > :12:19.
:12:19. > :12:27.this hysterical level... We should not claim people are demonised when
:12:27. > :12:35.they are treated as equal. The media treats a lot of people unfairly.
:12:35. > :12:39.Let's go to our guests. We have a counter extremism expert. One of the
:12:39. > :12:45.underlying issues is there had been a number of convictions over the
:12:45. > :12:50.past few years for terrorism. But it is a tiny number. In some ways you
:12:50. > :12:55.could argue this is not a Muslim problem, just a problem with a few
:12:55. > :13:05.terrorists of all backgrounds. respect, the British people no
:13:05. > :13:07.
:13:07. > :13:16.longer really believe the words of British Muslim leaders. People
:13:16. > :13:21.should recognise that the words of extremist groups is not so different
:13:21. > :13:30.to the same kind of literalist, supremacist readings of the same
:13:30. > :13:39.stricture by mainstream groups. -- Scripture. What is required is a
:13:39. > :13:49.true for recognition that Islamic, Jewish, Abraham Nick sects contain
:13:49. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :14:00.some violent versus. -- passages. Muslim scholars need to do work. We
:14:00. > :14:09.can't do it if the nature of our discourse is limited and controlled
:14:09. > :14:13.by an anti-Islamic industry. Mehdi, there is this industry. But I would
:14:14. > :14:23.say it is the people pushing narratives about a clash of
:14:23. > :14:30.civilisations. What about the side he has described? There are radical
:14:30. > :14:37.ideologies. But a lot of the roots are political. To claim it is
:14:37. > :14:45.Islamic is nonsensical. 99% of Muslims condemn these attacks. Let's
:14:45. > :14:50.be honest, even if there is an Islamic link, they also say they are
:14:50. > :14:55.doing it for foreign policy purposes. Even if they are, that
:14:56. > :15:05.doesn't justify all sorts of scaremongering headlines. Douglas
:15:05. > :15:09.says it is every community. No, this is particular targeting of Muslims.
:15:09. > :15:14.Studies of the media can be pulled out of a hat. They are not
:15:14. > :15:20.convenient for your argument? important to go back to the central
:15:20. > :15:24.point. If a community, small or large, a certain number of people,
:15:24. > :15:30.who commit acts of violence that are very, very prominent and cause a lot
:15:30. > :15:35.of upset, death and horror, there is going to be a response to that. I
:15:35. > :15:38.agree with the idea that there is a response to it and that it should
:15:39. > :15:41.include criticism, where criticism is legitimate. It should include, as
:15:41. > :15:45.we have already seen in this country, the usual force of the law.
:15:45. > :15:50.That is what has happened in this monster these attacks. A Ukrainian
:15:50. > :15:54.man has been arrested for these attacks. A Somalian man attacked the
:15:54. > :15:57.mosque in Birmingham. We have got to remember that there is a legitimate
:15:57. > :16:02.response to what people will feel. Then there will be completely wrong
:16:02. > :16:07.things. But he makes a very important point. There is a risk at
:16:07. > :16:11.the moment that there are people who think that all muslins think in a
:16:11. > :16:15.particular way, they all have the same agenda. The only other people
:16:15. > :16:21.that do think that Adi Islamist political parties, some of whom do
:16:21. > :16:24.have prominent representatives and spokesman in is countries, who think
:16:24. > :16:30.that all Muslims should follow their version of Islam. Both sides are
:16:30. > :16:36.equally wrong. Joining us on webcam is a director of an organisation
:16:36. > :16:42.that logs alleged Islamophobic attacks. A lot of the incidence you
:16:42. > :16:46.get reported to you, I understand, are online. There is a lot of
:16:47. > :16:55.extreme talk online. One wonders if there is an exaggeration of the
:16:55. > :16:59.scale of the problem? Well, there is not an exaggeration, because the
:16:59. > :17:04.type of material you see online include not only threats to kill,
:17:04. > :17:07.they include consistent harassment of individuals. We are talking about
:17:07. > :17:14.people who make an account, take down an account, target the
:17:15. > :17:20.individual with a separate account. Death threats online, which the West
:17:20. > :17:26.Midlands Police then made arrests from. We are not talking here about
:17:26. > :17:31.some soft words that are said, words that people find distasteful. We are
:17:31. > :17:37.talking about real threats to individuals, and impacts on their
:17:37. > :17:43.lives. Let's talk about the impact. When you have e-mails, when you have
:17:43. > :17:48.a tweet sent to you from somebody you don't know with threats to kill,
:17:48. > :17:54.they are extremely frightening. Compare that with a street -based
:17:54. > :17:59.account, you do not know who is targeting you. Let's not hear the
:17:59. > :18:03.voices of the people that say, well, they are online, they should be
:18:03. > :18:07.taken into account. Douglas talks about the issue around Islam and
:18:08. > :18:10.Muslims. Douglas was on record as saying, in 2006, conditions for
:18:10. > :18:17.Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board, Europe must
:18:17. > :18:19.have a less attractive proposition. He even suggested the demolishing of
:18:19. > :18:23.mosques in some circumstances. Douglas does not realise the scale
:18:23. > :18:31.and intensity of the problem. He is one that goes on record to say that
:18:31. > :18:34.anyone who monitored Islamophobic incidence is part of an Islamic
:18:34. > :18:44.conspiracy. There are easier jobs I could do for a living rather than
:18:44. > :18:50.having personal threats and threats against staff. Sunni Tell Mama is
:18:50. > :19:00.subject to eight pretty devastating analysis by Andrew Gullikson --
:19:00. > :19:06.
:19:06. > :19:10.has said, he said many years ago, I never said anything should be done
:19:10. > :19:14.with Islam. I said that if mosques preach violence, they should be shut
:19:14. > :19:20.down. As he well knows, I don't stand by the other comments, made in
:19:20. > :19:24.a very angry time after the 7/7 bombings, after the murder of Theo
:19:24. > :19:29.van Gogh, when several of my friends had been chased into hiding and
:19:29. > :19:31.threatened with being killed because of their criticism of Islam. We'll
:19:32. > :19:38.get things wrong, I don't have any pride in that. This thing about
:19:38. > :19:44.threats has to be tackled. I disagree with the Respect party, I
:19:44. > :19:53.don't think that Selma Yacoub or anybody else should be subjected to
:19:53. > :20:01.threats against their person. Including people like myself.
:20:01. > :20:08.to bring Anne in. In a sense, Douglas is talking about saying
:20:08. > :20:13.stuff in the heat of the moment in the aftermath of a violent incident?
:20:13. > :20:16.Last week, that brave woman who has called for women on our currency,
:20:16. > :20:20.she had her most horrific threats against her. This does happen to us
:20:20. > :20:23.all. I don't know what happens to people when they go online, a lot of
:20:23. > :20:29.people lose their senses. Something I want to say on a different issue,
:20:29. > :20:33.I think a lot of reasonable people are worried about that in this
:20:33. > :20:37.country we rejoice that we have freedom of speech, we can criticise
:20:37. > :20:44.each other robustly, we can laugh at each other. This is very much part
:20:44. > :20:47.of our culture, something we are very proud of. I think a lot of very
:20:47. > :20:53.reasonable people are worried that Islam has this kind of firewall
:20:53. > :20:58.around it that you must not laugh at it. I know what you mean, I think
:20:58. > :21:06.Muslims should have more fun, there are a lot of Muslim comedians.
:21:06. > :21:11.they must accept criticism. I just want to bring in someone while we
:21:11. > :21:19.have time, and prior is a former MP for Keighley. She has spoken out
:21:19. > :21:23.about things like the status of women in a Muslim constituency. What
:21:23. > :21:29.is your perspective on this issue? Unfortunately, I am a well-meaning
:21:29. > :21:32.Guardian reader and I don't read rubbish like the Daily Mail and
:21:32. > :21:42.other newspapers, what they are palling out. I'm not really aware of
:21:42. > :21:43.
:21:43. > :21:48.what has been said. But if they are demonising Muslims, if they are
:21:48. > :21:52.engaging in Islamophobia, I am very concerned. But can I also say that,
:21:52. > :21:58.over 13 years, I thought for the rights of Muslim women, in my
:21:58. > :22:06.constituency, to choose their own partners and own husbands. If
:22:06. > :22:16.somebody is going to say to me, this is Islamophobic, well, I can't agree
:22:16. > :22:17.
:22:17. > :22:21.with him. I was entitled during those 13 years to engage in
:22:21. > :22:29.conversation against forced marriages from a certain point in my
:22:29. > :22:36.period of office. I also engaged in arguments about gangs, grooming and
:22:36. > :22:40.sexually abusing young girls. Should I not have done that? I'm sorry, the
:22:40. > :22:44.phone line has terrible problems. For those that did not hear, she
:22:44. > :22:47.raises the issue that when she tries to criticise real problems, going on
:22:47. > :22:54.in a Muslim community, you are labelled Islamophobic. And this has
:22:54. > :22:57.been going on for years? If you say that forced marriages are about
:22:58. > :23:03.Islam, that is Islamophobic. Islam does not allow forced marriages and
:23:03. > :23:10.Muslim women are campaigning against them alongside Anne. It is about how
:23:10. > :23:15.you approach the problem without stereotyping communities. There is
:23:15. > :23:18.an online phenomenon but also a mainstream phenomenon. We agree that
:23:18. > :23:25.terrorism is a blight and we need to discuss it. If you look at some of
:23:25. > :23:33.the newspaper stuff, did a council ban Christmas to avoid offending
:23:33. > :23:36.Muslims? Did NatWest bank piggy banks? Did a bus driver order
:23:36. > :23:41.passengers off a bus so he could pray? Where Muslims involved in the
:23:41. > :23:45.kidnapping of Madeleine McCann? No. That's the Daily Star. Is Islam
:23:45. > :23:51.responsible for the grooming of children? This is the rubbish
:23:51. > :23:55.delivered by the Daily Mail, The Express, even The Times. What do you
:23:55. > :24:02.expect, genuine good people having fears about Islam? Of course, false
:24:02. > :24:08.fabrications. There is that fear of offending. Well, I'm offended when
:24:09. > :24:12.people lie about my faith and front pages. There are legitimate and
:24:12. > :24:14.illegitimate criticisms. Most of the legitimate criticisms still get
:24:14. > :24:17.people into trouble. A legitimate criticisms still get people into
:24:17. > :24:21.trouble. Illegitimate criticisms, we can separate out. But they are not
:24:21. > :24:27.wrong when a look at certain Muslim leaders in this country, including
:24:27. > :24:30.some that have been spoken about today, including some of this stuff
:24:30. > :24:35.online, there are lots of things being said by prominent Muslims in
:24:35. > :24:42.this country that people are worried about, concerned about. I think it
:24:42. > :24:52.is legitimate... I have certainly not defended the ADL online. --
:24:52. > :25:03.
:25:03. > :25:13.our poll question. Mehdi thank you, with passion in the studio. Our
:25:13. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:29.Muslims being demonised? You can entered the banking business, sort
:25:29. > :25:33.of. Or it at least threw open its doors to it. The watch Bishop of
:25:33. > :25:36.Canterbury said he wants to put payday lenders like banker out of
:25:36. > :25:42.business. Instead, he plans to encourage the expansion of credit
:25:42. > :25:45.unions. Subsequently, Justin Welby discovered that the church had
:25:45. > :25:53.indirectly helped to bankroll banker in the past. It comes in the same
:25:53. > :25:57.week as he described the naming and shaming of individual bankers as
:25:57. > :26:07.akin to a lynch mob. Archbishop Justin Welby believes the
:26:07. > :26:09.
:26:09. > :26:16.church can offer credit unions use of many of its buildings in areas of
:26:16. > :26:21.need. We need to provide good alternatives to people, which must
:26:21. > :26:27.-- are much less expensive, to help economic regeneration. Credit unions
:26:27. > :26:32.offer lower interest rates than companies like Wonga, but they do
:26:32. > :26:37.not have such a sophisticated infrastructure or marketing clout.
:26:37. > :26:45.If there is one thing we have learned Wonga, it is how to quickly.
:26:45. > :26:48.Wonga says it's welcoming greater consumer choice. The Office of Fair
:26:48. > :26:52.Trading has referred the payday lending industry to the competition
:26:52. > :26:57.commission because of concerns about customers being able to identify or
:26:57. > :27:01.compared the full cost of loans. Archbishop Welby's campaign hit an
:27:01. > :27:05.early snag when it was revealed that the Church of England itself,
:27:05. > :27:12.through its pension fund, had invested in an equity company that
:27:12. > :27:21.helped Wonga launch. It made for some awkward media moments. You must
:27:21. > :27:27.be, at the very least, embarrassed this morning? Yes, I am.On a scale
:27:27. > :27:33.of one - ten? About eight. Archbishop, a former oil et tip, has
:27:33. > :27:35.been critical of mainstream banking as well. -- oil executive. On a
:27:35. > :27:45.radio programme, he said he was against individual bankers being
:27:45. > :27:48.
:27:48. > :27:51.hounded. In some companies, there was a clear policy of not telling
:27:51. > :27:54.the top people, they made sure they did not know things so they could
:27:54. > :27:59.plead ignorance. That is unacceptable. This business of
:27:59. > :28:05.saying that one individual somehow bears the whole blame, as opposed to
:28:05. > :28:09.simply be accountability, it feels like a lynch mob. Others believe
:28:09. > :28:16.that the bankers have not learned their lesson and should have been
:28:16. > :28:19.brought to book more severely. Is banking morally deficit? Or should
:28:19. > :28:29.those in the money business have freedom to operate in the
:28:29. > :28:30.
:28:30. > :28:35.marketplace as long as they stay of the church. Should it be in the
:28:35. > :28:43.business of lending? The Strand underlying this is ethical. Does the
:28:43. > :28:46.banking business overall need more morality? You can join in the debate
:28:46. > :28:51.online. Is Justin Welby doing the right thing by trying to get people
:28:51. > :28:54.better deals on loans? Archbishop that can get the better
:28:55. > :28:58.of John Humphrys, or anybody who can, has my vote for the rest of
:28:58. > :29:02.their life. He can't do any wrong from now on as far as I am
:29:02. > :29:07.concerned. I think he understands money. We all know that he was in
:29:07. > :29:10.that business before he was in the church. So, yes, he does know what
:29:10. > :29:18.he is talking about. Something that I find slightly irritating, being
:29:18. > :29:21.married to a clergyman, is... Can I think of a polite word? The garbage
:29:21. > :29:25.that is talked by others about Church of England investments.
:29:25. > :29:28.Somebody on the today programme was saying that the Church of England
:29:28. > :29:35.tries to limit harm in the ways invest is, why is it not more
:29:35. > :29:39.proactive? The idea of bringing lending into something that they do?
:29:39. > :29:43.I just want to finish this point. The Church of England is not in the
:29:43. > :29:47.business of giving cheap loans. That is not what it is for. It's in the
:29:47. > :29:50.business of preaching the gospel. In order to preach the gospel, it has
:29:50. > :29:56.certain investments that it needs to maximise for what it is doing. We
:29:56. > :30:06.have this figure, 5.2 billion or whatever it is, we forget that the
:30:06. > :30:08.
:30:08. > :30:15.Church of England is incomplete church making a moral stance on
:30:15. > :30:20.them. They are right to get involved. They are absolutely right
:30:20. > :30:25.to get involved. This is a point of discussion. You need leaders to put
:30:25. > :30:29.ideas out there and to argue for them, and if people wish to accept
:30:29. > :30:33.their ideas, they will. It is the sort of thing the Archbishop of
:30:33. > :30:36.Canterbury should be involved in. A lot of people in this country are
:30:36. > :30:43.taking advantage of by these companies. It is right that the
:30:44. > :30:51.Archbishop steps in. Finally, Douglas and I are in agreement. This
:30:51. > :31:01.is where I would go further. It is right to step in. Wonga 's interest
:31:01. > :31:03.
:31:03. > :31:08.is absurd. We should mention that Wonga is only one company.
:31:08. > :31:12.phrase was, I am going to compete you out of existence. I worried that
:31:12. > :31:17.is too limited a response. As the Office of Fair Trading has pointed
:31:17. > :31:26.out, it is not a fair industry, there is not free competition. There
:31:26. > :31:30.needs to be better regulation. We need a cap on the interest rates.
:31:31. > :31:35.I'm not sure why the government isn't doing it. A lot of American
:31:35. > :31:45.States and European countries have a cap. It is not the reputable
:31:45. > :31:47.
:31:47. > :31:52.companies like Wonga latte blame, is it? -- who are to blame. They have
:31:52. > :31:58.loaned to people who are drunk, people who are under 18. They are
:31:58. > :32:05.not a scrupulous industry. I want to bring in Mark Littlewood. You have
:32:05. > :32:11.heard and will have seen reporting about much unethical lending.
:32:11. > :32:17.I think that these payday lenders are providing a needed are required
:32:17. > :32:21.and desired service. It is right to point out that errors are made.
:32:22. > :32:28.Those should be properly dealt with. If necessary, they should be
:32:29. > :32:32.prosecuted through the correct processes. What Wonga and the payday
:32:32. > :32:40.lenders are doing is providing an alternative to thuggish loan
:32:40. > :32:48.sharks. That is to be commended. response to that? The fact is, they
:32:48. > :32:52.are legalised loan sharks. They have an extortionate rate. They make a
:32:52. > :33:02.lot of money from pressuring vulnerable customers who can't
:33:02. > :33:05.
:33:05. > :33:09.afford this stuff. Citizens advice ran a whole report pointing out that
:33:09. > :33:14.there is no transparency on these rates. They are asking for a clear
:33:14. > :33:20.payback amount to be stated at the start, which isn't provided. At the
:33:20. > :33:25.end of the day, they are the symptoms, and we have to ask why so
:33:25. > :33:29.many people are having to go to these payday lenders. A lot of
:33:29. > :33:36.people might say what you are doing is perfectly legal. But it doesn't
:33:36. > :33:42.seem moral. But you don't seem to care about the effect it is having.
:33:42. > :33:48.I rather agree with what Mehdi has just said. They are providing
:33:48. > :33:57.something that people need. Why people need this, that is a wider
:33:57. > :34:02.societal problem. It is not the fault of any lender. It shows how
:34:02. > :34:12.much people really are living on the edge. But they are exploiting those
:34:12. > :34:17.
:34:17. > :34:22.people. We also have a guest from a campaign. Tell us what you think of
:34:22. > :34:28.this idea, that these loan companies are not the problem but part of the
:34:28. > :34:33.solution. There is no bigger example of banks ripping off the public and
:34:33. > :34:40.the investment banking community. It led to the list crisis of a
:34:40. > :34:45.generation. It is the public who are still paying for their mistakes now.
:34:45. > :34:50.This is about getting the financial sector, particularly the investment
:34:50. > :34:56.banking community, back onside. Just like with any other addict, you
:34:56. > :35:01.cannot leave it to the addict to wean themselves off. It is the same
:35:01. > :35:05.with the banking sector. The government needs to help the sector
:35:05. > :35:09.get over it addiction to fast money. The Robin Hood tax would curb
:35:09. > :35:13.the excesses and raise billions. We can plough it back into the economy
:35:13. > :35:19.and public services. We need the government to step in to the vacuum
:35:19. > :35:22.we often see in the banking sector to get it working once again in the
:35:22. > :35:32.interest of society rather than against it. Douglas.
:35:32. > :35:34.
:35:34. > :35:39.It is difficult. A lot of businesses made in the border regions, shall we
:35:39. > :35:44.say. It relies on people having an ethical value system of their own to
:35:44. > :35:52.bring to it. That is different from illegality. One of these confusions
:35:52. > :35:56.has been that the public, I think rightly, have the perception... We
:35:56. > :36:01.have nobody in the industry who misled people, who sold products
:36:01. > :36:06.that didn't exist. If anybody else sold a product that didn't exist and
:36:06. > :36:11.took the money for it and ran, that person would be in jail. That hasn't
:36:11. > :36:17.happened in the financial services industry. The Archbishop is talking
:36:17. > :36:27.about scapegoating individual bankers. People are right to pick up
:36:27. > :36:34.on that. There is a risk of this going at bankers as a whole. There
:36:34. > :36:40.is a risk of generalising. There is an anti-banker sends in the country.
:36:40. > :36:46.I agree, there is an unthinking sense of let's blame the bankers.
:36:46. > :36:50.The whole of society is to blame for this. It has to be said that most of
:36:50. > :36:56.the bankers are not the people who are going to find themselves without
:36:56. > :36:59.homes, or be pursued. I just wonder if we need to ask more radical
:36:59. > :37:03.questions about the nature of capitalism. If you go back to the
:37:03. > :37:08.old Testament, the rules that God enshrined would have made capitalism
:37:09. > :37:13.impossible. They also make raging wealth and poverty, in theory,
:37:13. > :37:19.impossible. I wonder whether we should be asking ourselves if we are
:37:19. > :37:26.all to blame here in this. We have got capitalism taken to an extreme.
:37:26. > :37:35.I agree there are extremes. To take Douglas' points, I would argue it is
:37:35. > :37:42.about fringes. Within the industry, bankers are not a minority. Bob
:37:42. > :37:50.Diamond, he was not some small bank manager. He had one of the ageist
:37:50. > :37:56.banks. The head of HSBC went to serve in government. There is
:37:56. > :37:59.anti-banker sentiment, but no practical action. We will put
:37:59. > :38:07.somebody in jail who stole a bottle of water in the riots, but not a
:38:08. > :38:12.single banker. We have got a former trader joining us. There was a
:38:12. > :38:19.time, Barbara, when banks and bankers were considered beacons of
:38:19. > :38:22.civic responsibility. Perhaps there's a case for saying that
:38:22. > :38:27.bankers should be trying to recapture some of that. They could
:38:27. > :38:34.have a moral role in society again. They could. Unfortunately, it is not
:38:34. > :38:38.bankers' job to pursue a spiritual high ground. It is their job to make
:38:38. > :38:45.money. That is where the profession differs from others, like a police
:38:45. > :38:50.officer or teacher, who have an air of civic responsibility. So it is an
:38:50. > :38:56.industry about greed. Is there no moral imperative on bankers as human
:38:56. > :39:01.beings to think about what they are doing? It is important to understand
:39:01. > :39:05.that nobody is breaking any laws here. They are operating within the
:39:05. > :39:10.rules of the current system. The credit crunch didn't occur because
:39:10. > :39:16.bankers were acting illegally. There were a series of ethical breaches
:39:16. > :39:23.whereby an bankers may have known what they were doing. I think that
:39:23. > :39:33.is disputed. I would dispute that. As we have seen from the right
:39:33. > :39:38.
:39:38. > :39:41.reading scandal, they were not. -- rate fixing scandal. There are
:39:41. > :39:50.unique circumstances where the law was broken, but mainly it is ethical
:39:50. > :40:00.breaches. Just a couple of thoughts from viewers. Janet says that the
:40:00. > :40:05.
:40:05. > :40:11.Archbishop should concentrate on raising average incomes. Here, here.
:40:11. > :40:17.That is an interesting point. Mark raised it, too. I had the focus
:40:17. > :40:23.should be on why people are turning to these companies. -- perhaps the
:40:23. > :40:31.focus. I don't think it is the job of the Archbishop to raise the
:40:31. > :40:41.minimum wage! It is the job of the Church to challenge, to change
:40:41. > :40:48.society. I suspect there was a huge cultural shift in the 1980s, where a
:40:48. > :40:56.lot of these things, before then, were restrained by self-imposed
:40:56. > :41:00.morality, by Christian values. It wasn't just banking, but in all
:41:00. > :41:05.sorts of professions, people had a sense of honour, a sense that you
:41:05. > :41:10.don't lie to the taxman. The City of London was always based on my word
:41:10. > :41:14.is my bond. Those are the things that were done away with when greed
:41:14. > :41:23.became respectable, the only thing that mattered. And shame
:41:23. > :41:30.disappeared. Thank you all very much indeed. You have all been voting at
:41:30. > :41:38.home on whether Muslims are being demonised. The poll is closing, so
:41:38. > :41:42.please don't text in. We will show the results at the end of the show.
:41:42. > :41:46.Later today the Pope will lead a mass to celebrate world youth day in
:41:46. > :41:52.Brazil after a week of coverage involving 2 million young people. He
:41:52. > :41:58.has called on the young drivel to become a living stones to build the
:41:58. > :42:02.church. Next week, a BBC programme will follow a festival for millions
:42:02. > :42:08.of Hindus. In an age of fast travel and luxury hotels, is pilgrimage
:42:08. > :42:12.still relevant? First, a look at some of the world's most important
:42:12. > :42:17.pilgrimage. This week, the Pope has been greeted
:42:17. > :42:21.by more than 1 million pilgrims in Brazil to mark world youth Day, an
:42:21. > :42:30.international festival attended I young Catholics from more than 190
:42:30. > :42:38.countries. He is incredible. He was so close to me. It was amazing. I
:42:38. > :42:43.yelled. It was terrific. He is so energised. He is extremely
:42:43. > :42:47.charismatic. He was waving. This year, the Vatican said those
:42:47. > :42:56.Catholics following the pilgrimage live on television, radio and social
:42:56. > :43:00.media may qualify for indulgences, the remission of punishment for sin.
:43:00. > :43:05.Journeying to a place of special significance has long been a central
:43:05. > :43:11.act of religious devotion. Each year, more than 3 million Muslims go
:43:11. > :43:21.on a pilgrimage to Mecca. It is one of the five pillars of Islam. In
:43:21. > :43:24.
:43:24. > :43:30.terms of numbers, though, no pilgrimage compares to the kohl
:43:30. > :43:39.mela. This festival attracted 100 million pilgrims in India. Hindus
:43:39. > :43:43.bathe in the sacred rivers in order to emerge purified and renewed. For
:43:43. > :43:53.this lady and her niece, who made the journey from London, it was a
:43:53. > :43:53.
:43:53. > :44:01.special moment. Amazing. And to be part of something. Matter it is vast
:44:01. > :44:09.but it is about everybody coming together. You could never put this
:44:09. > :44:14.into words. No better place to pray than the Ganges.
:44:14. > :44:19.In times gone by, people would have had to walk for days, if not weeks,
:44:19. > :44:23.and risk the perils of the road to take part in pilgrimages. Now, with
:44:23. > :44:30.air flight and comfortable hotels, the very nature of some pilgrimages
:44:30. > :44:37.has changed. But does the fact that modern luxuries can be enjoyed at
:44:37. > :44:41.the same time make the experience any less spiritual? The spectacle is
:44:41. > :44:45.still there, and many people's reasons for going is still sincere.
:44:45. > :44:55.It has the true purpose be lost and is pilgrimage still relevant? What
:44:55. > :44:56.
:44:56. > :45:01.meaning? Very much so. You saw from the film, even the people living in
:45:01. > :45:05.the West, away from major religious sites, people from Britain
:45:06. > :45:09.travelling abroad, I am very fortunate in that I have been able
:45:09. > :45:12.to go on pilgrimage. Alongside the birth of my two daughters, it is
:45:12. > :45:16.probably the greatest experience of my life and I am not a very
:45:16. > :45:24.spiritual person. It is a growing thing, more and more Muslims do it?
:45:25. > :45:28.It's deeply overcrowded. A growing Muslim middle class want to go two
:45:29. > :45:32.or three times. You mentioned about technology, thank God I went on Hajj
:45:32. > :45:37.before I got on Twitter. I don't know what I would have been like
:45:37. > :45:41.now. It's a good way to cut yourself off from the daily rat race, focus
:45:42. > :45:48.on what really matters. It's also got social meaning. For Muslims, the
:45:48. > :45:51.Hajj is a place, as the Hindu in your film mentioned, everybody gets
:45:52. > :46:01.together, there is no black or white, rich and poor, male or
:46:02. > :46:10.
:46:10. > :46:15.female, everybody together. Marco Max? -- Tell MamaMalcom X --
:46:15. > :46:18.Malcom X? Do you see that in the modern world? Cutting yourself off
:46:18. > :46:22.from the rat race, focusing on something deeper, it's an important
:46:22. > :46:29.thing. There are too few opportunities in the modern world to
:46:29. > :46:32.do that. I don't think it has to be a religious thing. I think
:46:32. > :46:39.nonreligious people, including atheists, can have equivalents.
:46:39. > :46:42.as? Well, travel to a place of particular meaning to you. It can be
:46:42. > :46:46.something of personal significance, the family, it could be travelling
:46:46. > :46:52.to see a great work of art you have always wanted to see. That just
:46:52. > :46:57.sounds like a holiday, doesn't it? It's not quite as organised.
:46:57. > :47:05.does it differ from a spa break, potentially? The important thing is
:47:05. > :47:08.that it's part Lee a delay of gratification. We do live in a
:47:08. > :47:12.society of instant gratification. We can get on a flight and get
:47:12. > :47:16.somewhere, we can order what we want at any time. Something about the
:47:16. > :47:20.build-up of the event that makes you focus on it is an important thing.
:47:20. > :47:26.People might think, what is the difference between pilgrimage and
:47:26. > :47:29.religious terrorism, with the gift shops and the package tours? It has
:47:29. > :47:33.always have that element, the fine line between tourism and
:47:33. > :47:37.pilgrimages. In the Middle Ages, people used to go and collect all of
:47:38. > :47:42.the tokens. It's very easy for us to say that we are in favour of
:47:42. > :47:45.pilgrimage and apple pie. I'm interested in the criticism of
:47:45. > :47:50.pilgrimage, right from the beginning. As early as the fourth
:47:50. > :47:53.century, Jerome said that the kingdom of God is within yourself.
:47:54. > :48:03.August Ian said that faith brings God to you, you don't you to go on
:48:04. > :48:04.
:48:04. > :48:07.pilgrimage. People were criticised in to the church of Rome. The first
:48:07. > :48:14.person to criticise pilgrimage was Jesus himself. The Samaritan woman
:48:14. > :48:18.said, should we worship God here, where the Jews say, or where the
:48:18. > :48:21.Samaritans say? He said, the time is coming where you will not worship in
:48:21. > :48:29.any particular place because God will be in our hearts. Luther said
:48:29. > :48:34.all pilgrimage should be stopped. I speak as a Christian and we are all
:48:34. > :48:40.on pilgrimage. We are all pilgrims. Pilgrim means travelling through the
:48:40. > :48:45.air. The Christian understanding is that we are simply travellers.
:48:45. > :48:48.agree, I think you should... I'm not saying pilgrimage is wrong, I'm
:48:48. > :48:52.saying there's another side that I find interesting. There is a sense
:48:52. > :48:56.that, I'll go on pilgrimage, that will make me wholly. If you don't
:48:56. > :49:03.take God with you, you will not find God when you get there. I want to
:49:03. > :49:07.bring in a cell -- secular point of view. It's clear that millions of
:49:07. > :49:11.people around the world say they get a real spiritual value from
:49:11. > :49:15.pilgrimage. What do you say? suppose one way of saying it is that
:49:15. > :49:21.you get the ritual value if you think you get spiritual value, but
:49:21. > :49:24.you don't necessarily get it. I accept the argument that pilgrimage
:49:24. > :49:28.is a special time, if you travel with the idea you will find
:49:28. > :49:32.something special, fine. If somebody wants to tell you that, as you said
:49:32. > :49:37.in the clip, the Ganges, the waters of the Ganges are more spiritually
:49:37. > :49:40.charged than the waters of any other body of water, I would start to
:49:40. > :49:44.question it. What specifically would you say to people that really
:49:44. > :49:51.believe that going to this place is wholly and it will give me spiritual
:49:51. > :49:56.benefit? It's a matter of choice. I suppose if you feel there will be
:49:56. > :50:00.benefits, there is a fine line. There are faith healers who say, if
:50:00. > :50:06.you believe, I can't hear your disease. At that point, you will
:50:06. > :50:09.want to say, you might want to see your doctor. You think there is a
:50:09. > :50:15.scam element? The benefits of the events are clearly spurious and need
:50:15. > :50:20.to be questioned. In a larger sense, the idea that you want to go on a
:50:20. > :50:30.journey to something that matters to you, we are talking about the grand
:50:30. > :50:31.
:50:31. > :50:35.Canyon, Notre Dame, in that kind of sense... I want to bring in somebody
:50:35. > :50:39.who is on pilgrimage in Kent, able to communicate with the world
:50:39. > :50:42.outside. What do you make that argument? There will be people who
:50:42. > :50:46.say they feel there is something wrong about the idea of a mass
:50:46. > :50:53.pilgrimage. All of these people acting, not as individuals, but in a
:50:54. > :50:59.herd? I suppose the first thing to say is, for somebody of any faith,
:50:59. > :51:04.we are all on a mass pilgrimage the whole of our existence. We are all
:51:04. > :51:07.destined for something greater. We live our life a day at a time, that
:51:07. > :51:12.is a pilgrimage. What is interesting to me is that many people don't make
:51:12. > :51:15.pilgrimage and they will look at the headline stuff. The miracles, all of
:51:15. > :51:19.those other things that are associated with many pilgrimages.
:51:19. > :51:24.They will miss the point. That is that, if you don't take God with
:51:24. > :51:29.you, you are not going to find him when you get there on pilgrimage. A
:51:29. > :51:37.pilgrimage is time out. It is a chance to look for dipping counters
:51:37. > :51:41.with God. Briefly, Paul, I'm interested that the Pope is saying
:51:41. > :51:47.that you can follow his pilgrimage on television and social media and
:51:47. > :51:51.get spiritual indulgence. Is there any pilgrimage without sacrificing
:51:52. > :51:56.some way? It's an interesting question. I think we need to make
:51:56. > :52:00.some sacrifice at some point. I think pilgrimages time out from the
:52:00. > :52:06.consumerism. It is a countercultural thing to do. Probably more relevant
:52:06. > :52:10.than ever. But I am here with 700 young people that could not get
:52:10. > :52:14.there. We are following the Pope, we have big screens, Twitter and
:52:14. > :52:20.everything and we are having a good time. You could argue that the
:52:20. > :52:23.church is having it both ways. Maximise potential audience, also
:52:23. > :52:31.encourage the physical pilgrimage? It's an extension of the debate
:52:31. > :52:34.alluded to about the hucksters on the fringes. Pilgrimage, going back
:52:34. > :52:44.to the beginning, has taken that in. The Canterbury tales is infused
:52:44. > :52:45.
:52:45. > :52:49.with it. Are you infused by the idea that you can have this multimedia
:52:49. > :52:54.experience? The last of the four quartets, it's an extraordinary
:52:54. > :53:00.passage. He says, whichever way you have come, however you found your
:53:00. > :53:04.way to this place, I badly quote, but he says that you are not here to
:53:04. > :53:10.carry report. You are here to kneel where prayer has been valued. It
:53:10. > :53:15.does not matter how you got here. Can social media do the same thing?
:53:15. > :53:19.No, it can't. Something we have not touched on is that pilgrimage is not
:53:19. > :53:24.just going to meet God. It's also a meeting with God's people. It is
:53:24. > :53:30.like the church, but many times. Why do you go to church? You don't go to
:53:30. > :53:35.church to meet God, because you can meet God in the bedroom. It is
:53:35. > :53:39.social? A very important social aspect of being with God 's Micra
:53:39. > :53:49.family. People talk about the equality of pilgrimage. A bishop's
:53:49. > :53:52.blisters are the same as a tramps. The people who thing going on
:53:52. > :53:56.pilgrimage is the same as going to the Grand Canyon don't have a clue,
:53:56. > :54:01.with respect. On the social media side, I don't want to be a Luddite,
:54:01. > :54:05.but having not gone on the Hajj with my iPhone, with Twitter, I would
:54:05. > :54:15.hope that if I went now it would enhance it. I would love The To be
:54:15. > :54:23.
:54:23. > :54:29.Hajj and enjoyed it like that. have to ended there. And you can see
:54:29. > :54:35.Kumbh Mela: The Greatest Show on Earth, on Tuesday, BBC Two. The poll
:54:35. > :54:40.results are in. We asked if Muslims were being demonised. 22% said yes,
:54:40. > :54:47.they are. 78% said no. So, about a quarter of people, of those that
:54:47. > :54:50.have decided to contact us. Just to read a flavour of comments, an
:54:50. > :54:55.anonymous one, terrorism is a threat from small minorities of Muslims.
:54:55. > :54:57.The threat is the chauvinistic, homophobic culture that runs against
:54:58. > :55:02.British values of tolerance. Dylan says that Muslims are being
:55:02. > :55:07.demonised. The actions of a minority should not reflect on the rest of
:55:07. > :55:11.the Muslim population. Jessica says, I don't think any religion is beyond
:55:11. > :55:15.criticism, but let's not confuse that with the demonisation that is
:55:15. > :55:19.occurring. Terry says it is time the Muslim faith Britain takes a long,
:55:20. > :55:23.hard look at itself. Its isolation from mainstream British society is
:55:23. > :55:28.all too obvious. I think that last point is a good want to start on.
:55:28. > :55:31.Mehdi, your view? The Muslim community is isolated because it
:55:31. > :55:34.feels besieged. The best way of making them out of the public
:55:34. > :55:41.square, it is to make them feel that they don't belong. The result does
:55:41. > :55:44.not surprise me. First, it's quite a heavy duty question. Are Muslims
:55:44. > :55:48.being demonised? The majority of people in this country do not hold
:55:48. > :55:53.anti-Muslim views. I'm not surprised they responded in that manner. It's
:55:53. > :55:58.about sections of the population. As I said earlier, if you are fed a
:55:58. > :56:03.diet of misinformation and hysteria about a minority community, that has
:56:03. > :56:09.repercussions on consequences. is this feeling that there are these
:56:09. > :56:13.issues like Sharia law courts, the status of women, that don't go
:56:13. > :56:16.away. Is that legitimately part of the discussion or part of the
:56:16. > :56:22.demonisation? I find the result of that poll deeply depressing. I do
:56:22. > :56:27.believe that Islam is being demonised. I believe that, it is
:56:27. > :56:31.something I'm very proud of in this country, our tolerance and our
:56:31. > :56:35.willingness to embrace different faiths and cultures. I don't think
:56:35. > :56:39.we are embracing it. Have you changed your views? I haven't. I
:56:39. > :56:44.think there are two sides to the question. I do see Muslims being
:56:44. > :56:48.demonised. Maybe not by a majority, but it's definitely happening. I
:56:48. > :56:52.think it is awful, if we can't see that. That vote to suggest three
:56:52. > :56:54.cannot see what is happening under our own noses. That we are not being
:56:54. > :57:00.fed to a particular minority. I think Christians are demonised as
:57:00. > :57:04.well. I got into my hotel room last night, turned on the television and
:57:04. > :57:07.there was a popular game show that I will not mention, saying the most
:57:07. > :57:12.unbelievable stuff about the Pope, the Catholic Church, about how
:57:12. > :57:17.basically all Catholics were basically paedophiles. That kind of
:57:17. > :57:22.generalisation and unpleasant this can happen in any direction. The
:57:22. > :57:29.thing is, when it comes to Islam, specifically to religious aspects of
:57:29. > :57:33.Islam, there is a lack of willingness to challenge it. It is a
:57:33. > :57:38.legitimate fear. The very first point I came to is this, of course
:57:38. > :57:42.it is wrong to tar everybody from any community with the brush of
:57:42. > :57:45.extremism because of some individuals. But I think there is a
:57:45. > :57:50.popular public reaction, that is legitimate, that says there is a
:57:50. > :57:53.problem we see, we are not sure how to deal with it but we observe a
:57:53. > :58:01.problem. Thank you so much to everybody that has taken part,
:58:01. > :58:07.particular duty Click to my guests in the studio. Do not taxed or call
:58:07. > :58:10.the phone lines any more. You can follow the links on the website to
:58:11. > :58:15.continue the conversation online. Thank you very much for watching and