:00:12. > :00:15.of Syrians fleeing the conflict on their streets is a massive
:00:15. > :00:20.humanitarian crisis. Neighbouring countries may not be able to help to
:00:20. > :00:25.cope the continued influx of people. So other countries may have to help.
:00:25. > :00:35.Britain may be asked to take in refugees. But should we? Would it be
:00:35. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :00:58.Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. Also on the show: More than 14 million
:00:58. > :01:04.people classed themselves as having no faith. Bobby Friction believes
:01:04. > :01:10.organised religion is to blame. Religions are becoming self-serving
:01:10. > :01:17.institutions. They have inward looking leaders. It is about
:01:17. > :01:22.buildings and books that have no longer any relevance.
:01:22. > :01:28.And as supermarkets ask lads' mags to cover up, a Page three model says
:01:28. > :01:32.wife -- watches sets -- what she thinks.
:01:32. > :01:36.My guests are the Reverend Sally Hitchiner, who is an Anglican priest
:01:36. > :01:41.and chaplain at Brunel University. She also runs an AA meeting,
:01:41. > :01:43.Agnostics Anonymous. Bobby Friction, from the BBC Asian
:01:43. > :01:49.Network, describes himself as a music obsessive and worldwide
:01:49. > :01:53.troublemaker. And Tim Stanley, journalist and leader writer with
:01:53. > :01:57.the Daily Telegraph, who also has his own Internet opinion blog.
:01:57. > :01:59.Welcome to you all. We want to know, of course, will what you think. If
:01:59. > :02:09.you have a webcam com you can join you have a webcam com you can join
:02:09. > :02:21.
:02:21. > :02:27.us to Skype. You can also give your in Syria during the current conflict
:02:27. > :02:31.is now more than 100,000. That is a shocking enough statistics. But the
:02:31. > :02:34.fatality toll has been accompanied by what is estimated to be the
:02:34. > :02:39.displacement of around 2 million others. Many of them are fleeing to
:02:39. > :02:43.neighbouring countries. Germany has already offered to take in 5000
:02:43. > :02:47.refugees if need be. The UN says that if the situation worsens, it
:02:47. > :02:54.may ask other European countries, including Britain, to take in their
:02:54. > :02:59.share. The fighting in Syria is driving
:02:59. > :03:05.6000 Syrians from their homes every day, according to the UN. Many of
:03:05. > :03:09.them are crossing the border and setting up home in refugee camps in
:03:09. > :03:16.Turkey Jordan, Lebanon Egypt and Iraq.
:03:16. > :03:19.Ten or 11 people in a tent for four. I don't know how they cope. If the
:03:19. > :03:23.UN asks Britain to help take in refugees, that is likely to raise
:03:23. > :03:30.concerns here at a time when the government is tightening up on
:03:30. > :03:35.immigration. Hello, my love.
:03:35. > :03:40.Christine Gilmore is at the sharp end of that debate. She is British
:03:40. > :03:46.and has kept her maiden name but she is married to Zeead, a Syrian
:03:46. > :03:50.national she met while studying in Damascus.
:03:50. > :03:56.I met him through work, through business. We just hit it off
:03:56. > :03:59.straightaway. Christine decided to leave Syria
:03:59. > :04:03.because of the troubles. She now lives in Leeds. Her husband is still
:04:03. > :04:09.in Damascus will stop so far, she has not been granted a Visa to join
:04:09. > :04:14.her in Britain. We have already been waiting three
:04:14. > :04:20.years to be together. Three years of my life where I feel in limbo. They
:04:20. > :04:24.will not let him in. I can't go to Syria, either. Her only contact with
:04:24. > :04:34.Zeead is by WebCam. Or, more often, on an unreliable
:04:34. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:44.phone line. I know, it is dangerous. I need you so much. I know.
:04:44. > :04:48.Alongside her own problems and being reunited with Zeead, Christina is
:04:48. > :04:53.concerned about the thousands of other Syrians who face a bleak
:04:53. > :04:57.future. A quarter of the entire Syrian
:04:57. > :05:01.population is this place. They are living in caves, under trees. They
:05:01. > :05:08.are living in parks. I have seen them with my own eyes. They have
:05:08. > :05:13.nothing. They are not receiving aid. I think it is shameful. At the
:05:13. > :05:20.moment, Christine is primarily focused on her own personal
:05:20. > :05:29.situation. Please be careful. I want you just
:05:29. > :05:35.to be careful. Look after yourself. That is one individual story. There
:05:35. > :05:41.are thousands of others looking for refuge. The government says there
:05:41. > :05:46.are no plans to invite them here. But is it right, Tim Stanley?
:05:46. > :05:50.all. We have a moral responsibility to do something. We should focus
:05:50. > :05:53.cash on places like Lebanon on to make sure there is good careful
:05:53. > :05:57.refugees there. When Britain acts like an imperial power, when it
:05:57. > :06:02.picked a side in a Civil War to offer moral support to one side, and
:06:02. > :06:05.when the side loses and things turned difficult, we have a
:06:05. > :06:09.responsibility because we are involved to stand up and take
:06:09. > :06:15.people. That happened in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan. It should
:06:15. > :06:18.happen in the case of Syria. This is the consequence of us pushing people
:06:18. > :06:28.around and getting involved. That is the question for our text
:06:28. > :06:36.
:06:36. > :06:44.vote. Should Britain take in will be announced at the end of the
:06:44. > :06:51.show. Bobby Friction. Moral
:06:51. > :06:56.responsibility? I am very proud of Britain's
:06:57. > :07:02.leadership when it comes to refugees over the last 100 years. At any
:07:02. > :07:08.other point, I think I would have completely, 100% said water and
:07:08. > :07:16.asked taking in those refugees. I do feel that we are at a unique point
:07:16. > :07:21.in history, British history, European history. -- 100% supportive
:07:21. > :07:29.of taking in those refugees. We have what is happening in the Middle
:07:29. > :07:32.East. This is not just a Civil War in Syria. It is what is happening
:07:32. > :07:40.throughout the Middle East, which is an ideological struggle which soon
:07:40. > :07:44.could spread across the Middle East. This time, before we start to let in
:07:44. > :07:49.refugees, we to focus on surrounding countries. Maybe not Lebanon, where
:07:49. > :07:55.a quarter of the population are refugees. We need to focus on places
:07:55. > :08:01.like Turkey and do our good deeds but do it through money and
:08:01. > :08:06.leadership. Sally, let's take the first of these points. Are people
:08:06. > :08:12.right to fear the social consequences in Britain if we bring
:08:12. > :08:20.in Syrian refugees? Are you implying that there might be extremists among
:08:20. > :08:26.the refugees that we take in? is one fear. Indeed, there are so
:08:26. > :08:28.proclaimed jihad -ists now among the Syrian opposition. There is a great
:08:28. > :08:33.deal of disquiet about what the effect might be of bringing in who
:08:33. > :08:37.knows whom. We need to be careful on who we bring in. But we are already
:08:37. > :08:41.involved. Tim was saying we can't risk getting partially involved
:08:41. > :08:49.because we have to pick up the pieces. The UK government already
:08:49. > :08:53.funds rebels in non-lethal equipment. We are already involved
:08:53. > :09:01.in this complex. There is so much humanitarian need. Thousands have
:09:01. > :09:04.died. The experience of Syrians I have met is that they are just
:09:04. > :09:10.deeply in distress. Three quarters of the refugees are women and
:09:10. > :09:14.children. We need to play a part in looking after them. We are already
:09:14. > :09:18.involved. We can still be involved through the UN and working with
:09:18. > :09:22.partners, especially Turkey. Our We don't have to bring all of the
:09:22. > :09:29.refugees in. I am not sitting here and say we should have a closed-door
:09:29. > :09:36.policy. At the moment, refugees, they come into areas that are black,
:09:36. > :09:42.Asian and Kosovan, and all of the recent waves of immigration we have
:09:42. > :09:48.had. The pressure has happens there. Tim, I got the impression from your
:09:48. > :09:53.opening remarks that you would invite the Syrian refugees in
:09:53. > :09:58.against your better judgement. Do you have no fears about what the
:09:58. > :10:08.effects in Britain would be? They're always fears, Fiat in terms of on
:10:08. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:13.public services, fear of who you are taking in. Another group we should
:10:13. > :10:18.be compassionate for is Syrian Christians. They are picked on by
:10:18. > :10:22.both sides. When it comes to humanitarian crisis, you have to
:10:22. > :10:26.take a leap of faith. That is the faith in other people, the faith
:10:26. > :10:30.that this is the best you can do for people who are truly in need. In
:10:30. > :10:33.that case, I think that is the judgement we have to make. We have
:10:33. > :10:38.to make the judgement because we chose to be involved. When you
:10:38. > :10:41.choose to be involved in that way, you have to take responsibility for
:10:41. > :10:44.the consequences. There are a lot of people in this country who are
:10:44. > :10:51.already radicalised will stop there were problems before any Syrians
:10:51. > :10:58.arrive. The idea that a wave of refugees caused the problem is
:10:58. > :11:08.misleading. There are already home-grown problems. Let me bring in
:11:08. > :11:11.
:11:11. > :11:17.the Lim rather -- let me bring in a visitor. Where were you and what did
:11:17. > :11:20.you see out there? I have just come back on Thursday night. It was my
:11:20. > :11:30.third trip since the beginning of the year. I witnessed a number of
:11:30. > :11:32.
:11:32. > :11:38.disasters in my time. I will just give you an idea of one particular
:11:39. > :11:46.tented village, if I can call it that. This village is inside the
:11:46. > :11:52.border. The village I got to come and when I say the word village, I
:11:52. > :11:57.used the word loosely. 190 families have travelled 150 kilometres. They
:11:57. > :12:02.arrived 20 days ago. I asked where they had been living before this,
:12:02. > :12:06.and they said they had been living in caves. Think about this. They had
:12:06. > :12:11.no tents. They are living with sheets over their heads, under olive
:12:11. > :12:15.trees. They haven't had a hot meal for they can't remember how long. We
:12:15. > :12:20.went there to do a food distribution in the next day. We distributed
:12:20. > :12:25.16,000 food parcels in Ramadan. When we gave the food out, the first
:12:25. > :12:31.thing I saw the families do is to share it with those who arrived the
:12:31. > :12:35.night before. That food is not going to go far. The sanitation, the water
:12:35. > :12:41.hygiene is deplorable. The other thing I want people to take note of
:12:41. > :12:46.when they take part in your vote is the medical issues. The number of
:12:46. > :12:51.young girls who have had their legs blown off, women who have had arms
:12:51. > :12:56.blown off, they have been targeted by the regime. Hold fire just a
:12:56. > :13:02.moment. I want to ask the friction for his comments on that. They are
:13:02. > :13:08.filled to bursting point. Do we not need to do our bit? I would like to
:13:08. > :13:14.ask Na'eem Raza a question. You have spoken to these refugees. It is a
:13:14. > :13:21.heartbreaking story. We are all affected by it. But these guys don't
:13:21. > :13:26.want to come to the UK, do they? They want food, basic essentials.
:13:26. > :13:30.I don't think anybody wants to leave their home country. The issue is
:13:30. > :13:37.that we have to take some kind of steps. When I took of medical
:13:37. > :13:41.issues, there are some extreme cases before the war, people with medical
:13:41. > :13:48.issues, and nobody is working inside the country. These people are left
:13:48. > :13:54.on their own. People requested medication everywhere. I wanted to
:13:54. > :13:59.take a doctor across the border to treat an issue. There are hardly
:13:59. > :14:03.these issues. There is nothing in the country for them. We have to
:14:03. > :14:10.come in to the country and Paul be people out. Thank you for giving us
:14:11. > :14:19.such a graphic picture of what the campus are like. Can I ask now to
:14:19. > :14:23.talk to the Reverend Nadim Nassar on the WebCam. He's the founder of a
:14:23. > :14:31.foundation and is the first Syrian Anglican priest in Britain. You have
:14:31. > :14:38.heard that moving condition of the refugees. Do you think Britain
:14:38. > :14:45.should be bringing them in? Good morning. There is no bright or
:14:45. > :14:50.lovely situation for any refugees. Refugees mean, by their nature, that
:14:50. > :14:57.it is a tragedy. I want to ask the government what is the incentive,
:14:57. > :15:02.what is behind the idea of bringing refugees to this country? And how
:15:02. > :15:12.many? Germany is offering to bring 5000 people. Tell me something. 5000
:15:12. > :15:14.
:15:14. > :15:21.people out of 6 million? How much would be a solution to the problem?
:15:21. > :15:25.I think the problem is not how many people we bring here to Britain or
:15:25. > :15:35.to Germany or other countries. The question is, how do we solve the
:15:35. > :15:38.
:15:38. > :15:45.problem. It is a gesture only. That is the point I was going to put to
:15:45. > :15:50.you. Let me ask you, tokenism is what the Reverend was saying.
:15:50. > :15:52.think he makes a very good point. It is important this conflict ends as
:15:52. > :15:58.quickly as possible and we enable Syria and its inhabitants to get
:15:58. > :16:03.back to a normal life, but it is not a safe plays right now, and it is
:16:03. > :16:06.not possible for people to maintain a safe existence. They are fleeing
:16:06. > :16:10.to neighbouring countries that are less equipped to deal with them than
:16:10. > :16:14.we are, so I think we need to play our part in not just pumping aid
:16:14. > :16:24.into Syria but actually providing safe outlets for people to take
:16:24. > :16:29.
:16:29. > :16:33.refuge before they turn back to There are two scary double standards
:16:33. > :16:36.here. First of all, in this country, we are all in favour of economic
:16:36. > :16:45.immigration. Bog area and remain you will have access to the labour
:16:45. > :16:48.market, and we don't mind that. -- old area and Romania. The second
:16:48. > :16:51.double standard is that I suspect that when it comes to talking about
:16:51. > :16:54.refugees from largely Islamic countries, people express more
:16:54. > :16:59.concern and more worried than they would if they were talking about
:16:59. > :17:03.countries from Christian countries. There is a very worrying attitude
:17:03. > :17:06.toward Syria and the nature of asylum seekers that betrays a
:17:06. > :17:09.decline in charitable spirit among some people. We should make it clear
:17:09. > :17:13.that it is not the British government that is accused of
:17:13. > :17:18.tokenism or any such thing, it is the UN that is suggesting that they
:17:18. > :17:24.might, in the course of time, come to Britain. Let's forget the UN,
:17:24. > :17:27.let's forge ahead. Let's take the money we would have spent taking
:17:27. > :17:34.these refugees in and work with Turkey. Turkey is not a third World
:17:34. > :17:37.country. It is easy for us to have compassion fatigue when people are
:17:37. > :17:41.in a far-away country. If we were a young mum with three kids knocking
:17:41. > :17:48.on the door, we would want to help them, but the fact that they are far
:17:48. > :17:52.away means we do not care as much, and even having just a small, capped
:17:52. > :17:56.number of refugees in the UK would raise our compassion. I care more
:17:56. > :18:00.about Syria because of the Syrians I have met through my work and through
:18:00. > :18:03.different situations, and I think they could be vital spokespeople,
:18:03. > :18:08.who keep us aware of the conflict and stop this from becoming more
:18:08. > :18:12.horrific than it needs to be. Bobby does not mean it this way, but
:18:12. > :18:17.sometimes, when people say, let the region deal with its problems, it is
:18:17. > :18:20.a case of the fairing charity and the charitable response. I think it
:18:20. > :18:29.overlooks the fact that it is our problem and we have fuelled this
:18:29. > :18:32.crisis by our actions. I mentioned Turkey because let's look at 11 and
:18:32. > :18:37.- a quarter of the country are now refugees, the same sectarian issues
:18:37. > :18:43.that are driving Syria are also there in Lebanon. It is not as
:18:43. > :18:45.pushing them. How much compassion fatigue, do you think, is going on
:18:45. > :18:50.in this country? The Disasters Emergency Committee say they have
:18:50. > :18:55.only raised �17 million for Syrian aid so far compared to, for
:18:55. > :18:59.instance, 107 million for the Haiti earthquake. I think it is really
:18:59. > :19:02.important, the point you raised, and it breaks my heart to think that we
:19:02. > :19:12.are less compassionate as a nation to muzzle the Geordie countries.
:19:12. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:18.That is evil, that is wrong. -- two Muslim majority countries. It is
:19:18. > :19:23.really important to know that we are secure in our cultural identity,
:19:23. > :19:28.that refugees are a gift to our nation and have made us who we are,
:19:28. > :19:31.and it is really important to push people were there seems to be a
:19:31. > :19:37.disparity between wanting immigrants from countries that look like us and
:19:37. > :19:42.maybe sound like us, I don't know who that is, because Britain is so
:19:42. > :19:46.multicultural these days. Where does this go in the end? I am the son of
:19:46. > :19:52.an immigrant, I understand these issues, I love this country, I'm not
:19:52. > :19:55.saying, let's close the door, but it is a complex situation. It is not
:19:55. > :19:59.just Syria, we know what is happening in the Middle East. It is
:19:59. > :20:02.not compassion fatigue and Islam phobia. It is the fact that we are
:20:02. > :20:07.living in austerity Britain, it is getting hard-core within the inner
:20:07. > :20:11.cities, it is getting really hard. We love people, we love refugees,
:20:11. > :20:20.but what we are looking at now is not a natural disaster. It is not
:20:20. > :20:23.Haiti, it is not a tsunami. It is a local civil war which could
:20:23. > :20:27.eventually be the 21st century of the Spanish civil war, the beginning
:20:27. > :20:29.of a much wider conflict. I do not think it is about being
:20:29. > :20:37.anti-immigrant or refugee. Let's hear what some of our viewers as
:20:37. > :20:41.saying. Barry says we must help them as much as we can but that is not
:20:41. > :20:46.the same as giving them all a home. Ciaran says we have confused asylum
:20:46. > :20:50.with economic migration. Of course, we should offer shelter to those in
:20:50. > :20:54.need. And Derek in Manchester says we have enough migrants as it is,
:20:54. > :20:59.Britain cannot afford to provide housing and an income for Syrian
:20:59. > :21:04.refugees, too. That was Derek and Manchester. Do keep your comments
:21:04. > :21:14.coming in. Our poll is still open, and the question is, should Britain
:21:14. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:32.take in Syrian refugees? You can Attendances at most Christian
:21:32. > :21:36.churches in Britain have been dropping for decades. In the last
:21:36. > :21:40.national census, more than 40 million people classed themselves as
:21:40. > :21:44.having no religion. There has been a growth in non-Christian religions,
:21:44. > :21:49.most marked in Islam is the country's cultural and ethnic
:21:49. > :21:53.profile changes. In a recent survey by you go, there were suggestions
:21:53. > :21:58.that 41% of all young people agreed with the statement, religion is more
:21:58. > :22:03.often the cause of evil in the world. Broadcaster Bobby Friction
:22:03. > :22:13.believes structured religion is no longer relevant and the future is
:22:13. > :22:16.
:22:16. > :22:20.about personal spirituality, not This building used to be a church.
:22:20. > :22:24.It is where the locals would come and get their moral guidance every
:22:24. > :22:29.Sunday, or at least that is are mantic view of the past. The truth
:22:29. > :22:36.is attendance was a tradition, not a religious choice. That is why
:22:36. > :22:42.numbers have declined so much over the decades. This is a living
:22:42. > :22:49.example of the decline of institutionalised religion. This is
:22:49. > :22:53.now a Pakistani restaurant. The Jews have been replaced by dining tables.
:22:53. > :22:58.Some of you might get sentimental about that, but why? It is just
:22:58. > :23:08.bricks and water. God does not physically reside here. Like he does
:23:08. > :23:10.
:23:10. > :23:14.not reside in other religious religion, but I'm not an atheist. I
:23:14. > :23:24.do believe in the concept of God, I just don't want any man-made,
:23:24. > :23:27.
:23:27. > :23:31.organised religion telling me institutions with, apart from a few
:23:31. > :23:41.exceptions, inward looking leaders. It is all about buildings and books
:23:41. > :23:44.
:23:44. > :23:50.that no longer have relevance that our work, our experiences, in mother
:23:50. > :23:54.nature or the universe. Let's find God in music and art and travel, and
:23:54. > :23:59.within ourselves. What we don't need is to find faith in organised
:23:59. > :24:04.religion, so let's drop the facade, embrace this change, and let our own
:24:04. > :24:09.personal beliefs be our guide to life in the future. Bobby Friction.
:24:09. > :24:13.Do you agree with him or disagree? Do organised religions provide a
:24:13. > :24:16.framework for our lives? Or would you prefer to find God on your own
:24:16. > :24:24.terms? You can join in the debate by webcam or make your point by phone,
:24:24. > :24:28.text, e-mail or online. So, Sally, has Bobby got a point? And isn't it
:24:28. > :24:33.the case, couldn't it be argued that organised religions encourage people
:24:33. > :24:37.to follow a herd rather than think for themselves? I can't really speak
:24:37. > :24:42.for all organised religions, but definitely for my own faith,
:24:42. > :24:46.thinking of yourself is vitally important to understanding
:24:46. > :24:51.Christianity and reading the Bible. We encourage people to form their
:24:51. > :24:54.own opinions, and I would encourage people to engage with the issues for
:24:54. > :24:58.themselves, engage with the person of Christ as you read the Gospels
:24:58. > :25:01.for yourself, and come to conclusions based on that. But it is
:25:01. > :25:05.important to think, what are the alternatives? We form our views by
:25:05. > :25:09.our guts and what we feel is right, which can lead us in all sorts of
:25:09. > :25:13.crazy directions, or we form our views by the good of what society
:25:13. > :25:21.teaches us, which actually we have seen, in history, has been a
:25:21. > :25:24.problem. Is that not a good point? If you junk tradition altogether,
:25:24. > :25:30.you are joking and accumulated body of wisdom, of guidance and thought
:25:30. > :25:36.that people have drawn on for centuries, what is not about as now?
:25:36. > :25:43.I think we are genuinely, is a mass, human population, smarter than
:25:43. > :25:48.we used to be. Really?Yes! I totally believe this. We are not
:25:48. > :25:52.living in agrarian communities. We have contact with every other type
:25:52. > :25:56.of person, every other idea, everything is available to us. You
:25:56. > :26:01.were just about to make a point about non-religion causing a lot of
:26:01. > :26:07.hurt. Two me, I assume you were going to use the old Nazi argument,
:26:07. > :26:12.that atheism, well, they were not really atheists, the atheists of the
:26:12. > :26:15.commonest block and everything. Two me, what religions are our super and
:26:15. > :26:20.you did groups like political ideologies. I almost feel like some
:26:20. > :26:24.allegiance these days be like political parties. I was not going
:26:24. > :26:29.to is a full and we outgrown religion? To take the point that
:26:29. > :26:38.Bobby was beginning to develop, has the internet killed organised
:26:38. > :26:42.religion? We may end up focusing on Facebook photos of holidays and
:26:42. > :26:47.hard-core porn. Thank goodness we live in such a smart age with people
:26:47. > :26:50.like Bobby around. He is the Saint Augustin of the 21st century. God is
:26:50. > :26:54.not about therapy, God is not about feeling good about yourself or a
:26:54. > :26:58.framework for the like. God is about truth, seating and try to find
:26:58. > :27:04.truth, and sometimes the truth is scary and asks you to do difficult
:27:05. > :27:08.things. Second, religion is like any kind of pass - it requires learning
:27:08. > :27:11.and discipline. As a musician to simply compose a symphony without
:27:11. > :27:16.any kind of training or structure, without an orchestra, with an
:27:16. > :27:19.orchestra, and he will compose noise. The same is the case with
:27:19. > :27:23.religion. Without organised religion, if you say, make up your
:27:23. > :27:28.own mind, they will come up with one or two things, dream catchers and
:27:28. > :27:31.crappy therapeutic stuff that has no real meaning or substance, or even
:27:32. > :27:35.worse, extremism. They will make decisions which are very bad. What
:27:35. > :27:38.Bobby is describing is how you end up with lots of people with shower
:27:38. > :27:47.caps on their heads drinking poisoned Jews in order to get onto a
:27:47. > :27:51.comment and fly away to meet God in the stratosphere. -- poisoned juice.
:27:51. > :27:55.Is it not a problem when you see different religions claiming the
:27:55. > :27:59.monopoly on truth? What is wrong with that? Is it not possible that
:27:59. > :28:04.one of the religions is wrong and the other is right? Why do feel that
:28:04. > :28:08.everyone has to be right? There is a truth beyond us, beyond you and me,
:28:08. > :28:10.and we are all arguing over what that truth is, and that struggle has
:28:10. > :28:20.defined supplies Asian and created art and beauty and society and
:28:20. > :28:23.everything. -- has defined civilisation. I understand what
:28:23. > :28:27.religion has given people over the ages, what it has given
:28:27. > :28:35.civilisation. Maybe as the human race, as human beings, we would not
:28:35. > :28:40.be as advanced as we are if it were not for the coalescent aspects of
:28:40. > :28:43.religion, but we are reaching a time where, the argument that there is
:28:43. > :28:46.only one truth, and I do not care if you are a tribesman in Papua New
:28:46. > :28:51.Guinea who is never met anyone, or someone living in Scotland, someone
:28:51. > :28:56.living at the North Pole, you must follow this truth to reach heaven.
:28:56. > :28:59.We are going to have some different views now, I want to speak to the
:28:59. > :29:04.co-founder of the Apostasy Project, and they help, if I am right in
:29:04. > :29:09.saying, people to leave religious affiliations if they are finding it
:29:09. > :29:13.difficult to do so. Why are you so keen to get people out of religion?
:29:13. > :29:18.It is not that I am keen to get people out of religion. I just want
:29:18. > :29:21.to ensure that everybody has the freedom to follow the way of life
:29:21. > :29:25.that they feel most comfortable with. The unfortunate situation is,
:29:25. > :29:29.when you talk about religion, particularly young people's
:29:29. > :29:31.religion, you are talking about the religion that was thrust upon them
:29:31. > :29:36.by their parents and their community, and a lot of people in
:29:36. > :29:39.this day and age are not comfortable with these identities and these
:29:39. > :29:43.belief systems that they are supposed to adopt because they have
:29:43. > :29:47.been told to. I think, any modern age, with human rights and things
:29:47. > :29:51.like that, people should have the right to choose, as I think Bobby is
:29:51. > :29:57.saying. Let's take a different view on that from Abdelwahab, who used to
:29:57. > :30:02.be known as UK Apache, when you were in the music business. You gave up
:30:02. > :30:12.music altogether in order to be able to practice your faith, the exact
:30:12. > :30:17.
:30:17. > :30:23.opposite from the last caller. Why? I would not say I gave up music
:30:23. > :30:28.directly. I would say that my spiritual journey I still perform
:30:28. > :30:37.the same way. I still use my vocal talents. But I don't perform in
:30:37. > :30:42.clubs. I think it goes hand-in-hand with my face. What do you think of
:30:42. > :30:47.what a long shot half had to say about people who have been brought
:30:47. > :30:54.up with what he would say is the construction of religion? -- Alom
:30:54. > :30:59.Shaha. We live in England, a society where
:30:59. > :31:09.you have the choice to choose. Nothing has to be forced upon you.
:31:09. > :31:12.
:31:12. > :31:18.Even in Islamic religion, there is no compulsion. Even if you are
:31:18. > :31:24.influenced by your parents, and you are going to be influenced with what
:31:24. > :31:28.you are up what up with, when you become to a certain age, you can
:31:28. > :31:34.choose what you want to follow, whether you want to be a Christian,
:31:34. > :31:40.a Hindu, an atheist... Sorry to interrupt you. I'm keen to get from
:31:40. > :31:43.you why it is that you have chosen what you have from a very
:31:43. > :31:50.independent and clearly intelligent point of view, what have you chosen
:31:50. > :32:00.and why? I have chosen is lamb. mother passed away about three years
:32:00. > :32:03.
:32:03. > :32:09.ago. She never force religion upon me. She said it was up to me to
:32:09. > :32:15.choose. I looked at many religions. Eventually, I found the truth in
:32:15. > :32:25.Islam. That is what I related to. Everybody has a choice. For me, the
:32:25. > :32:26.
:32:26. > :32:33.morals of Islam connected with me. In seeking the truth, like your
:32:33. > :32:40.panel said... I want to speak to Abdullah. I know
:32:40. > :32:45.him as UK Apache. We used to tour together. It is great going on about
:32:46. > :32:51.choice. I am not an atheist at all. You go on about the choice of
:32:51. > :32:59.accepting Islam, Church of bringing, Catholicism and... Out of
:32:59. > :33:05.interest, what are your thoughts on leaving a religion? Is it fair that
:33:05. > :33:12.a young guy can leave Islam if he wants to? If he wants to. We live in
:33:12. > :33:17.England, we have to follow the laws of the country. The law of the
:33:17. > :33:21.country is that people are free to make choices.
:33:21. > :33:27.Compare the spirit of the last two speakers. There is this language of
:33:27. > :33:36.love. It is fantastic. What does the first guy mean about brainwashing?
:33:36. > :33:40.When a kid goes to church, what kind of brainwashing is that? It is not
:33:40. > :33:44.brainwashing. There is so much paranoia about religion in this
:33:44. > :33:54.country. I am a Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church is the world
:33:54. > :33:55.
:33:56. > :34:03.'s biggest non-governmental provider of help for people with AIDS.
:34:03. > :34:06.For the church of England, it is far from brainwashing. The biggest
:34:06. > :34:11.growth in Christianity is evangelical churches. It suggests
:34:11. > :34:15.that people are looking for certainty and not, for giving, the
:34:15. > :34:23.wishy-washy anything goes that is associated with the church of
:34:23. > :34:28.England. Evangelical courses promote the idea
:34:28. > :34:35.that you look into the issues yourself, that you explore what is
:34:35. > :34:40.truth and what do the claims of each religion have to say. Unlike my
:34:40. > :34:47.friend Bobby here, he's sitting on the fence as a permanent agnostic,
:34:47. > :34:53.but have you looked into the issues? Have you thought that an
:34:53. > :34:59.idea could be true? I'm going to leave that response, Bobby.
:34:59. > :35:02.I want to ask what you made of the comments about brainwashing? I am
:35:02. > :35:07.disappointed because I didn't mention brainwashing at all.
:35:07. > :35:11.point is that in the modern world, ancient religions seem anachronistic
:35:11. > :35:15.to a lot of people. As Bobby said, we have lots of new knowledge. There
:35:15. > :35:21.are other ways of making sense of the world outside of religion.
:35:21. > :35:30.People should have the freedom to choose those ways if they want. I am
:35:30. > :35:35.about freedom and choice just as much as UK Apache.
:35:35. > :35:42.This could go on for ages. I want to get another perspective. Noel
:35:42. > :35:50.Moules, and the Anabaptist Network, gives us a different take on
:35:51. > :36:00.organised religion. Yes, I think that there is a real
:36:00. > :36:04.need to come to the heart of what the Christian faith is concerned
:36:04. > :36:11.with. We need to look at Jesus -based spirituality. So many
:36:11. > :36:17.churches in the UK have been brought up in this historic catastrophe of
:36:17. > :36:22.Christendom, where there is a link between the church and state. People
:36:22. > :36:31.are moving away from the church in droves. People are looking at the
:36:31. > :36:36.church and seeing it as irrelevant. I, personally, rejoice in this.
:36:36. > :36:43.are keen on people getting out of buildings, aren't you? That is
:36:43. > :36:49.right. It is how the buildings are used. The important thing is
:36:50. > :36:54.community. For me, it is a Jesus focused spirituality that is
:36:54. > :37:00.empowering and working to transform society. I think there are all sorts
:37:00. > :37:04.of possibilities there for us to explore. I actually think we are
:37:04. > :37:13.living in the most exciting time to be a Christian in 2000 years. Sally
:37:13. > :37:17.Hitchiner? I do agree, to an extent. Religion
:37:17. > :37:21.in general is about relationships, a relationship with God, with other
:37:21. > :37:25.people who are gathering to worship God. Just as we are a family, a
:37:25. > :37:31.family needs a home. The church buildings are often the most public
:37:31. > :37:36.the recognised and owned aspect of the church, so it is a tragedy that
:37:36. > :37:40.we are known for our buildings... But it is true. One in six people go
:37:40. > :37:44.to visit a cathedral every year. People love their own church
:37:44. > :37:50.buildings. It is important that we make the most of that. We should all
:37:50. > :37:54.be together focusing on the church serving the community. Bobby, I'm
:37:54. > :38:04.going to break your heart because you can't get in here. There is so
:38:04. > :38:08.much to talk about. This is so great. OK, another time. Thank you.
:38:08. > :38:18.You have been voting in our text poll this morning. Should Britain
:38:18. > :38:23.
:38:23. > :38:30.take insulin refugees? The lines are Co-operative stores have given lads'
:38:30. > :38:34.mags five weeks to cover up their front pages with sealed bags or be
:38:34. > :38:38.taken off the shelves. Tesco have not happened up their policy, two,
:38:38. > :38:46.persuading three lads' mags to adapt their front pages to become more
:38:46. > :38:55.modest. They have restricted sales of such magazines to over 18s/ --
:38:55. > :38:58.over 18s. The managing director of Twitter in the UK has said the
:38:58. > :39:03.company is hiring extra staff to guard against abusive tweets against
:39:03. > :39:11.women. He has apologised for recent attacks on the social media that
:39:11. > :39:14.have included threat of bomb attacks and rape directed at women. But just
:39:14. > :39:20.hours after his announcement, the classicist and TV presenter Mary
:39:20. > :39:26.Beard, who has faced abuse before, and not she had been sent a bomb
:39:26. > :39:34.threat through a tweet. So, the revealing photographs and lads' mags
:39:34. > :39:44.stoked up sexism? We will discuss that in a moment. First, the views
:39:44. > :39:51.
:39:52. > :39:55.of two people who believe there is This photographer makes part of his
:39:55. > :40:01.living from glamour shots. He feels this sort of revealing photos that
:40:01. > :40:06.appear in so-called lads' mags and tabloid newspapers do not portray a
:40:06. > :40:10.negative image of women. The majority of people I find can
:40:10. > :40:16.appreciate it without degrading the person they are looking at.
:40:16. > :40:21.The supermarkets' get tough policy is misguided, according to Nathan.
:40:21. > :40:25.He believes it could do more harm than good.
:40:25. > :40:29.It will become something that is seedy, that we don't talk about.
:40:29. > :40:33.That is never a healthy way of having a discussion between adults.
:40:33. > :40:40.That is what we are talking about. Kids should not be looking at it. On
:40:40. > :40:44.the other side, Lucy Collette also takes issue with the critics.
:40:44. > :40:50.don't think it exploits women at all. Nobody has put a gun to my
:40:50. > :40:53.head. That is a view held by others in the business. Nathan argues there
:40:53. > :40:58.is a fine line between the sort of pictures that appear in other glossy
:40:58. > :41:05.fashion magazines and lads' mags. I looked at some covers earlier.
:41:05. > :41:12.was a handful of women in swimwear. If somebody being in a swimsuit now
:41:12. > :41:17.deemed offensive? -- is somebody. Then how do you treat other
:41:17. > :41:24.magazines where somebody has flesh on show? If lads' mags get banned,
:41:24. > :41:29.what is next? Are we going to have to start not to show our ankles? We
:41:29. > :41:33.are regressing to the dark ages. There are a lot of other important
:41:33. > :41:40.issues in the world to be addressing, not just the fact that
:41:40. > :41:45.women, who are equal that our equal right to do what we want to do is
:41:45. > :41:49.taken away. Nathan thinks it is up to the parents to regulate what
:41:49. > :41:54.their children see. If it is the content, I would argue
:41:55. > :41:58.you can't see the content until you look through it. If you are worried
:41:58. > :42:07.about kids, don't let your kids rifle through magazines in the
:42:07. > :42:12.supermarket on your own. Nathan there with his views. Should
:42:12. > :42:21.lads' mags be forced to cover up or are they seem to matter got wider
:42:21. > :42:26.problems in society? Or is cracking down actually taking away women 's
:42:26. > :42:30.equal rights? What do you think? You can join in by webcam or make your
:42:30. > :42:36.point by phone, text, e-mail or online. Let's hear the views of our
:42:36. > :42:41.guests. Bobby, what is wrong with them? It seems like a black and
:42:41. > :42:48.white issue. It is not, it is complex. On one side, you have got
:42:48. > :42:51.the history of feminism, who are four equality for women. Sadly, when
:42:52. > :42:58.you get equality, it also means young ladies can go out and say,
:42:58. > :43:05.well, I am going to/whatever to make money as I feel empowered, as well
:43:05. > :43:08.as feminists saying, I have equality of pay. You have got that side of
:43:09. > :43:12.the argument, which is essentially feminism isn't just about shutting
:43:12. > :43:17.down stuff. The other side is also what you mention about parents. I
:43:18. > :43:23.don't think these magazines are changing the way youths and boys and
:43:24. > :43:28.men view women. I believe it is about parents being able to bring up
:43:28. > :43:37.their kids with a very free and beautiful view of sexuality. They
:43:37. > :43:41.are out of sight input -- in supermarkets. I have no problem with
:43:41. > :43:48.that. It is an economic argument. If Tesco wants to do that, let them go
:43:48. > :43:54.ahead. It is their shop. A relic of the past? I was amused by the guy
:43:54. > :44:04.who said if you put a bag over the magazines, they will be seeded.
:44:04. > :44:05.
:44:05. > :44:10.think they are seedy already. There is different forms of sexuality. To
:44:10. > :44:15.me, the big issue is the Internet, hard-core pornography, which is
:44:15. > :44:19.basically vicarious prostitution. That is doing more damage to young
:44:19. > :44:24.people 's mines, because it is so available. But the suggestion is
:44:24. > :44:29.that this is a matter of degree. Degree is important. I am worried
:44:30. > :44:35.that we are starting to say we should either shut down sex or
:44:35. > :44:41.liberate all sex. It is between authoritarianism and libertarianism.
:44:41. > :44:44.No, we should have a mature debate. We should make a choice and a
:44:44. > :44:49.distinction, please come between hard-core, abusive pornography and
:44:49. > :44:55.something that is just about people having a bit of fun.
:44:55. > :44:58.People are confused because they feel feminists are against flesh,
:44:58. > :45:05.against the shortness of the SCUD or showing off your boobs. It is not
:45:05. > :45:15.about that. It is about models of perfectionism. Women's magazines are
:45:15. > :45:18.guilty of this as well. It means all of us, women, aren't happy with the
:45:18. > :45:28.way they look and men aren't happy with the women they share a bed
:45:28. > :45:30.with. It is important that we show the needs of the Internet industry,
:45:30. > :45:40.women who are doing it because they need the money. That is what
:45:40. > :45:47.damaging to a society. It is interesting you bring up the point
:45:47. > :45:51.about women's magazines? I think that is an issue that Lucy Collett
:45:51. > :45:58.is also keen to make, because you argue that other magazines can be
:45:58. > :46:02.more damaging to women than the kind of work that you do. Is that right?
:46:02. > :46:09.There is an element of damage to women with these magazines, because
:46:09. > :46:14.they are constantly telling you how to diet, because you might be too
:46:14. > :46:20.big. I am try to think of my words here! They are constantly picking up
:46:20. > :46:23.flaws in women, picking out cellulite on a women. Everyone has
:46:23. > :46:28.got cellulite, everyone gets spots, and it makes the readers feel
:46:28. > :46:32.inadequate about themselves. I know, for a start, I did when I was
:46:32. > :46:38.younger, when I was turning into a woman myself. I would see these
:46:38. > :46:41.images of women and magazines saying, look, she is too fat. So I
:46:41. > :46:49.thought, crikey, I am not allowed to look like that, so I did extreme
:46:49. > :46:53.dying thing -- dieting, I used to be a size eight, and now I am a size
:46:53. > :46:57.12-14, so it seems ridiculous, because this is my natural body. I
:46:57. > :47:02.want to show my body off because I am happy with it. I want to help
:47:02. > :47:05.women understand that it is fine to be this size, whereas in gossip
:47:05. > :47:10.magazines they slate you for it. They tell you it is not okayed to be
:47:10. > :47:15.this big, or they tell you it is not okayed to be this skinny. It is
:47:15. > :47:19.mixed messages that they are giving you all the time. Lucy, thank you
:47:19. > :47:25.very much, a very interesting point. Bobby, I want to put this to you,
:47:25. > :47:29.have we got the wrong target here? was going to ask a question about
:47:29. > :47:34.the boys, young men, how young men perceive sexuality. You have talked
:47:34. > :47:39.about young women and gossip magazines, what do you think about
:47:40. > :47:46.your breasts and young boys? Honestly, it was not a joke
:47:46. > :47:50.question. How are you affecting the use of Britain, the male side of it?
:47:50. > :47:54.The male side of it? Well, it is an appreciation of the female form, it
:47:54. > :47:58.is instinctive, you are meant to look at someone else being naked,
:47:58. > :48:03.because it is in your nature. How are we to have children if we do not
:48:03. > :48:08.know what the other sex looks like? Sexes there, it is in your instincts
:48:08. > :48:16.do what to do it, no matter how much you cover it up, no matter how much
:48:16. > :48:20.you deem it bad, it is there, because we are born. The thing I
:48:21. > :48:24.would like to put due, Lucy, you seem bright and articulate, this is
:48:24. > :48:28.something you have actively chosen to do, but I used to be a youth
:48:28. > :48:31.worker, and the thing that struck me micro was that some in your the
:48:31. > :48:36.girls I was working with, it was their aspiration to be a glamour
:48:36. > :48:41.girls or a footballer's wife. It is one thing for a small number to
:48:41. > :48:48.genuinely choose that, but where are the girls that want to be doctors,
:48:48. > :48:52.lawyers, housewives, all these other variety of things? The choice is
:48:52. > :48:54.really important, educating young girls that they can choose their
:48:54. > :48:59.destiny. Just because they are beautiful does not mean they have to
:48:59. > :49:04.do something like this, their minds are as important as their bodies.
:49:04. > :49:12.Lucy, thank you for making a point, I do want to bring in Kat Banyard,
:49:12. > :49:17.who is the founder of UK Feminista, a campaign for gender equality and
:49:17. > :49:21.part of the campaign to lose the lads' mags. What do you make of this
:49:21. > :49:26.point that, actually, you are going to the barricades on something that
:49:26. > :49:30.is just a matter of degree, not as important as what is happening on
:49:30. > :49:33.the internet, some of the hard-core stuff? And on the other level,
:49:33. > :49:41.frankly, there is other stuff that demeans women that you are not
:49:41. > :49:44.making a fuss about? The campaign led by UK Feminista and Object is
:49:44. > :49:51.not about saying this is the only issue in the world, but lads' mags
:49:51. > :49:55.play a crucial and unique role, a side rolled to the internet, because
:49:55. > :50:01.they are placed in everyday spaces, like shops and supermarkets, where
:50:01. > :50:06.people go to get their food with their children. They play a role in
:50:06. > :50:10.normalising the idea that it is acceptable to see people as
:50:10. > :50:13.dehumanised sex objects, and that is what lads' mags are all about. For
:50:13. > :50:18.ten years, they have done very effective marketing is just a bit of
:50:18. > :50:21.harmless fun, a bit of banter. But there is extensive research to show
:50:21. > :50:31.that treating women like sex objects duels sexist attitudes and
:50:31. > :50:34.
:50:34. > :50:44.behaviours. We accepted it is not okayed to have... Do these lads'
:50:44. > :50:47.
:50:47. > :50:53.mags teens fuel the kind of sexism we have been seeing on Twitter?
:50:53. > :50:56.There is a reason that the biggest coalition against violence is
:50:56. > :51:02.supporting this campaign, and that is because by betraying women as sex
:51:02. > :51:06.objects, it feels sexist attitudes and behaviours that underpin
:51:06. > :51:10.violence against on. It is a hugely serious issue, and that is why
:51:10. > :51:17.thousands of people have been raising boys and have been at the
:51:17. > :51:21.shocked. Let me bring in Dominic Smith, the editor of Nuts magazine,
:51:21. > :51:27.one of the magazines that has been asked to cover up by some stores, to
:51:27. > :51:32.tone down your front covers by others. Do you accept that you are
:51:32. > :51:42.creating an environment where the kind of abuse that we have been
:51:42. > :51:48.seeing on Twitter is more likely, is made more permissible among some
:51:48. > :51:52.segments of the male publishing? absolutely do not. I have to point
:51:52. > :51:55.out these at two very separate issues that you are merging, the
:51:55. > :52:00.views on Twitter is terrible and no-one can say it is fine, it is
:52:00. > :52:04.awful. And then these lads' mags, which are a separate issue.
:52:04. > :52:07.point has been made that it is not separate and that you are
:52:07. > :52:14.contributing to an object of occasion of women which makes the
:52:14. > :52:20.kind of thing that we have seen on Twitter more likely to happen.
:52:20. > :52:25.not at all. Kat Banyard talked about treating women as dehumanised sex
:52:25. > :52:29.objects. In our magazine, these women are celebrities. Lucy Collett
:52:29. > :52:35.is a personality, we interview her. These are not just visual images,
:52:35. > :52:39.they have a rounded personality in the magazine. The daily review of
:52:39. > :52:43.2007 pointed out there is no causal link between images and lads' mags
:52:43. > :52:49.and harm to young people, it is in the report, I would urge her to go
:52:50. > :52:53.and look at that report. I wonder if some of this debate is framed by
:52:53. > :52:57.class. Because I think quite often there is a certain snobbery towards
:52:57. > :53:00.women who choose that particular kind of profession, which is very
:53:00. > :53:04.unfair, because not everybody wants to be a doctor or a lawyer. Some
:53:04. > :53:09.people want to be a footballer's wife, and there is a judgment made
:53:09. > :53:13.about that. I'm not sure this debate is entirely about the subject, and
:53:13. > :53:18.we talk about it entirely in terms of feminism. Men are object divide,
:53:18. > :53:23.too, men are on the front cover of magazines. This is about the
:53:23. > :53:26.commercialisation of the body and rampant materialism. I am worried
:53:26. > :53:31.that it is one group of women saying to another group, you are not being
:53:31. > :53:36.what a modern woman should be. one thing to say that at about an
:53:36. > :53:40.individual. When a class of girls all wants to be a footballer's wife,
:53:40. > :53:44.then you begin to think, maybe we are and Doctor making these girls
:53:44. > :53:49.not to reach their potential. Not everybody has the gift to be a
:53:49. > :53:52.doctor or a lawyer, but when there is not diversity, and there are a
:53:52. > :53:56.disproportionate number of girls from rougher areas who wants to be
:53:56. > :54:01.in these professions, we should ask what we are doing to them as a
:54:01. > :54:05.society. Isn't that about parenting in 2013? We cannot just wash our
:54:05. > :54:09.hands of its because they are not our kids. I do not know if you have
:54:09. > :54:13.daughters, but it is important that parents take an active role. As a
:54:13. > :54:18.society, we need to take responsibility and be role models
:54:18. > :54:22.and empower young girls to see their potential and make active choices.
:54:22. > :54:28.agree with that. I just want to emphasise again that I think this
:54:28. > :54:32.debate about Twitter is not entirely about misogyny and feminism. It is
:54:32. > :54:36.about how we treat each other as individuals. I know the nature of
:54:37. > :54:40.some of the threads are very highly sexualised and about femininity, but
:54:40. > :54:44.I get calls about unpleasant things and threatened all the time, and I
:54:45. > :54:50.am not a woman. You do not have the same standards of perfectionism pump
:54:50. > :54:54.that you all the time. There are men who are anorexic, there are trends
:54:54. > :54:57.that are coming out in masculinity as well but are not allowing
:54:57. > :55:03.diversity and freedom of expression, but it is primarily focused on
:55:03. > :55:06.women. That is partly because we live in a world where the mind is
:55:06. > :55:11.undervalued and the physical is seen more important. But why does that
:55:11. > :55:15.apply more to women? Not at all, I think men are under certain
:55:15. > :55:19.pressures, you know, talking on a personal level, I do not like sport,
:55:19. > :55:22.and I'd be locked out of male society. We are under pressure as
:55:22. > :55:27.well, coming towards the end of the programme, and I want to let you
:55:27. > :55:31.know what viewers have been saying. This anonymous comment, it is up to
:55:31. > :55:34.parents to regulate what their children see, not the government.
:55:34. > :55:40.Should magazines that have topless men on the cover be obscured as
:55:40. > :55:45.well? And this can only be a positive step in altering the public
:55:45. > :55:49.mindset that women exist mainly for men's gratification. The last words
:55:49. > :55:54.to you, thank you very much for your comments are not. We have to end it
:55:54. > :56:01.there. The results are in of the poll, we asked whether Britain
:56:01. > :56:10.should take in Syrian refugees, and this is what you told us. 13% except
:56:10. > :56:18.yes, and 87% said no. All the good people at church, that is the
:56:19. > :56:25.problem! That is where I should be, too! Exactly, we are not at church.
:56:25. > :56:35., I am sorry about that, viewers. will try to drag Bobby with us as
:56:35. > :56:35.
:56:36. > :56:41.well! It is a hefty majority, isn't it? For you who felt that we need to
:56:41. > :56:46.show compassion. We do, and I think compassion is... Things that promote
:56:46. > :56:49.compassion, for example, church, are incredibly useful analysis ID,
:56:49. > :56:56.important voices that listen to us when we are feeling this financial
:56:56. > :57:01.squeeze. It is a hefty majority for people who do not want refugees
:57:01. > :57:05.necessarily coming in now, but not necessarily a majority of people
:57:05. > :57:10.washing their hands of them. disagree, I think an instinctive
:57:10. > :57:13.response is yes, it is sad we did not get that. I understand these are
:57:14. > :57:17.troubled times, and people are worried about their services, their
:57:17. > :57:21.own communities. Nonetheless, when someone knocks on your door, when a
:57:21. > :57:27.stranger comes, you should let them in, that is what we should do as
:57:27. > :57:34.human beings. Bobby? I agree, and if they come knocking at the door, we
:57:34. > :57:37.have a chance to help our other neighbours, into injunction with our
:57:37. > :57:42.other neighbours, to look after them. So they can look after
:57:42. > :57:46.themselves down the street! It is important we look after ourselves as
:57:47. > :57:51.a society and we do not close our ears to others because they are on
:57:51. > :57:56.the other side of the world. Thank you very much indeed, thanks to
:57:56. > :58:00.everyone who is taken part today, also to my guests in the studio,
:58:00. > :58:04.reverend Sally Hitchiner, Tim Stanley and Bobby Friction. Do not
:58:04. > :58:08.text or call the phone lines anymore, they are now closed, but
:58:08. > :58:12.you can continue the conversation online. The links are on the
:58:12. > :58:17.website. That is it for this week. Thanks for watching and for all your