:00:00. > :00:09.Good morning, I'm Sian Williams with the show that gets to the heart and
:00:10. > :00:18.As Britain begins air raids against Islamic extremists,
:00:19. > :00:26.church leaders warn that bombs can't destroy beliefs.
:00:27. > :00:29.As protests cause a controversial exhibition to close,
:00:30. > :00:37.And from the super-cool Fonz to the champion of children and dyslexia
:00:38. > :00:45.campaigner - Henry Winkler tells me about being offered an OBE.
:00:46. > :00:51.If the Queen would like to give you this, would you accept it? We will
:00:52. > :01:09.think about that... OK, fine! And we're in Cornwall, where we'll
:01:10. > :01:25.be joining Rebecca Wills, who's The back Peshmerga a very warm
:01:26. > :01:30.welcome from a very warm Falmouth. Where street dance, street art and
:01:31. > :01:35.theatre have been providing a riot of sound and colour on the streets
:01:36. > :01:42.of the Tyne as part of the Splash arts Festival celebrating its rich
:01:43. > :01:47.creative spirit. Today is a final day some of the people here up for
:01:48. > :01:48.that, here at the beach, we will reflect the topics you are
:01:49. > :01:51.discussing back in the studio. We'd like to know what you think,
:01:52. > :01:58.too. You can comment by phone, text,
:01:59. > :02:00.email or through Twitter, Phone calls cost up to 5p per
:02:01. > :02:05.minute from most landlines. Calls from mobiles may
:02:06. > :02:06.cost considerably more. Texts will be charged
:02:07. > :02:12.at your standard message rate. After all the consideration
:02:13. > :02:18.and hesitation, Britain is joining David Cameron says there's
:02:19. > :02:23.a moral case for it because Islamic State extremists are psychopathic
:02:24. > :02:27.terrorists trying to kill us. But some religious leaders
:02:28. > :02:31.are counselling caution. The Archbishop of Canterbury,
:02:32. > :02:34.Justin Welby, is calling for an ideological and religious solution
:02:35. > :02:39.rather than just a military one. And the Baptist and Methodist
:02:40. > :02:41.Churches in Britain say you can't Yesterday, MPs voted overwhelmingly
:02:42. > :02:52.to support air strikes and on the Andrew Marr Show a short time ago
:02:53. > :03:03.the Prime Minister made it clear the When you face a situation with
:03:04. > :03:10.psychopathic terrorist killers in Syria and Iraq who have already
:03:11. > :03:12.brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have launched and
:03:13. > :03:17.tried to execute plots in our country to kill innocent people, you
:03:18. > :03:22.have a choice dashed either stand back from this and say this is too
:03:23. > :03:26.difficult and complicated, let someone else keep the country safe,
:03:27. > :03:31.we take the correct decision to have a full, comprehensive strategy but
:03:32. > :03:32.let us be prepared to play a role in making sure these people cannot do
:03:33. > :03:34.us harm. On Sunday Morning Live
:03:35. > :03:39.we'll be asking: Do we have a moral duty to
:03:40. > :03:42.bomb Islamic State extremists? Text the word vote followed
:03:43. > :03:44.by yes or no to 81771. Texts will be charged
:03:45. > :03:46.at your standard message rate. Go online to vote for free
:03:47. > :03:52.at bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. Terms and conditions can
:03:53. > :03:55.also be found online. Results will be announced
:03:56. > :03:58.at the end of the show. But first, let's get some opinions
:03:59. > :04:08.from our guests this morning. Joining us to discuss this issue are
:04:09. > :04:12.journalist and documentary maker, His latest documentary explores
:04:13. > :04:15.the question of who won the war Julie Bindel is a freelance
:04:16. > :04:19.journalist and political activist. Sami Ramadani from the Stop the War
:04:20. > :04:23.coalition, who's an Iraqi-born And scientist and member
:04:24. > :04:29.of the House of Lords, Professor Susan Greenfield, whose
:04:30. > :04:43.latest book explores how modern Susan, is there a moral
:04:44. > :04:48.justification for a war which will inevitably result in the deaths of
:04:49. > :04:52.people? As everyone says, for every situation there is a simple answer
:04:53. > :04:57.and it is always wrong. This decision should be put in the wider
:04:58. > :05:01.context and I would like to have seen along with this military
:05:02. > :05:04.decision, further understanding or exploration not just into the
:05:05. > :05:11.humanitarian issues but from my point of view, what makes someone so
:05:12. > :05:16.cruel? What makes people do this? It is all very well to say they are
:05:17. > :05:20.psychopaths but why? How can we reduce the possibility of people
:05:21. > :05:24.becoming so extreme in behaviour. While you psychoanalyse them, they
:05:25. > :05:31.conduct the most extraordinary utility? It is actually having a
:05:32. > :05:35.multipronged approach to the situation and I am not a military
:05:36. > :05:39.expert but whether that is little or more, it should be put in the
:05:40. > :05:44.context of a coordinated approach and that approach should include
:05:45. > :05:50.issues of education and looking within the UK at why people are
:05:51. > :05:53.becoming jihadist. I do not know if you heard the Prime Minister this
:05:54. > :05:57.morning and he said it was the correct decision for military
:05:58. > :06:04.action. It is surely a moral to sit by and watch this level of barbarity
:06:05. > :06:12.and brutality? We cannot just say, somebody else do this? Maze right to
:06:13. > :06:17.say they are psychopathic terrorists and the question to ask is, is
:06:18. > :06:22.warming the solution? We are looking for a solution and there is
:06:23. > :06:28.unanimity that these terrorists are very savage and they threaten people
:06:29. > :06:37.and they come Peshmerga they commit these of all crimes is bombing the
:06:38. > :06:41.solution? Is this morally right? Especially, morally, I do not think
:06:42. > :06:48.it is. Especially that Britain and the US, who are leading this, and
:06:49. > :06:53.they are one of the main reasons for the rise of these organisations
:06:54. > :06:59.because they bombed Iraq and have been since 1991. And the occupied
:07:00. > :07:04.Iraq in 2003 and terrorism was not known in this region until these
:07:05. > :07:10.wars were launched and more awards will create more terrorists. Peter
:07:11. > :07:16.Taylor, you are an expert in Terrorism Act, did the war in Iraq
:07:17. > :07:21.effectively create Islamic State? Indirectly because the origins of
:07:22. > :07:31.Islamic State and its leader, from Iraq, they are an offshoot from
:07:32. > :07:35.Al-Qaeda in Iraq. And I think that the invasion of Iraq was the trigger
:07:36. > :07:41.for the chaos we are seeing throughout the Middle East. My
:07:42. > :07:44.concern about the bombing campaign is the objective is specific that
:07:45. > :07:51.the effect will be limited because if you want to destroy and degrade
:07:52. > :07:57.ISIS, you can from the air about to destroy this, that will entail boots
:07:58. > :08:04.on the ground and I cannot see the Iraqi army or the Syrian army or the
:08:05. > :08:15.Peshmerga actually defeating ISIS on the ground. He said there would be
:08:16. > :08:20.no UK troops, he would be relying on the Peshmerga, the Kurdish fighters
:08:21. > :08:23.and the Iraqi fighters. If there are no UK boots, then he means that
:08:24. > :08:27.although the situation might change traumatically. I think it will
:08:28. > :08:33.almost certainly entail American boots on the ground because you
:08:34. > :08:38.cannot destroy an organisation, and it is an oversupply location to say
:08:39. > :08:43.ISIS is a terrorist organisation, it is also a conventional army with the
:08:44. > :08:48.command structure run by the commanders of the old Iraqi army who
:08:49. > :08:54.have gone to bring their expertise to ISIS. You are dealing with what
:08:55. > :09:00.is much more than just a terrorist organisation because they do
:09:01. > :09:03.horrendous acts, it is almost a conventional army and my fear is we
:09:04. > :09:08.are going in and committing ourselves to stepping into a very
:09:09. > :09:11.long, dark tunnel and nobody knows when there will be any light at the
:09:12. > :09:19.end of it. Is the answer to do nothing? Of course not. What was
:09:20. > :09:23.interesting about the House of Commons was how measured and
:09:24. > :09:28.corporative it was compared to 2003 and we can see that ISIS is the
:09:29. > :09:32.biggest and best resource and the most powerful threat to the West but
:09:33. > :09:38.this is not about whether you can defeat the ology with bombing, all
:09:39. > :09:43.war is a case of a geology of some type and this is a threat to Western
:09:44. > :09:47.civilisation. It is not a war between one country and another, and
:09:48. > :09:51.what concerns me is that the American strategy so far as pulled
:09:52. > :09:56.in more supporters of ISIS but having said that, the argument
:09:57. > :10:00.against is that civilians will be killed but they are being killed
:10:01. > :10:06.right by. Should we sit back and do nothing? No, we should intervene,
:10:07. > :10:12.whether or not that teens we should be training and resource in those
:10:13. > :10:19.within the region to defeat ISIS is another matter. I would agree with
:10:20. > :10:29.Peter, it will be a very long, dark tunnel but civilians are being
:10:30. > :10:35.killed now. We need to realise that Western civilisation created
:10:36. > :10:44.Al-Qaeda and in Afghanistan, it trained and armed them. Similarly,
:10:45. > :10:47.the whole region... OK, thank you for that point but I want to go to
:10:48. > :11:00.the newsroom studio. We are talking about the moral
:11:01. > :11:05.duty. Do we have one? Peter Taylor says they are not like any other
:11:06. > :11:12.terrorist organisation, with a very different infrastructure. Is this
:11:13. > :11:19.morally acceptable to target them? I think we the Peter described them is
:11:20. > :11:28.very accurate. ISIS is the shell and inside that Shell there are lots of
:11:29. > :11:34.other forces, like the X Bathursts and they are hiding underneath that.
:11:35. > :11:40.It is totally immoral to stand by and do nothing, as many have said.
:11:41. > :11:46.But we also have done nothing in the past three years in Syria. We have
:11:47. > :11:54.been watching a brutal regime massacre its people and destroying
:11:55. > :11:58.cities and we have been saying that Syria is too complicated and we
:11:59. > :12:04.should not intervene. I think that the decision here was probably as
:12:05. > :12:11.complicated or even more compensated than Syria. What is happening in
:12:12. > :12:14.Syria and Iraq is probably simpler. There is the moral consideration and
:12:15. > :12:19.the legal consideration and one must consider the consequences and the
:12:20. > :12:25.background. But the results so internal politics involved and the
:12:26. > :12:32.Alliance with the United States, the transatlantic relationship and a
:12:33. > :12:39.special relationship. The US was involved when the vote happened so
:12:40. > :12:45.not voting for intervention would have been a vote against special
:12:46. > :12:50.relationship so it is a much larger relationship that is involved. And
:12:51. > :12:57.the complexities of these decisions sometimes overshadow the morality.
:12:58. > :13:04.Do you agree, they overshadow the morality? It is one of the most
:13:05. > :13:09.complex problems that I can remember in my 40 years as a journalist. But
:13:10. > :13:15.we're about to enter the new phase and it is interesting that another
:13:16. > :13:22.jihadi organisation, allied to Al-Qaeda, not ISIS, says two Muslims
:13:23. > :13:28.throughout the world, in countries are part of the coalition, to attack
:13:29. > :13:34.the UK and European countries. And it is being resented as it is the
:13:35. > :13:39.war against Islam, which isn't -- which it is not, it is against
:13:40. > :13:48.ISIS, but I can see the repercussions of this, such as the
:13:49. > :13:54.invasion of Iraq. It was warned that if we were to invade Iraq, we would
:13:55. > :14:01.radicalise tense, dozens, hundreds of young people. I can see this
:14:02. > :14:05.happening. That is happening, you are acting as a recruiting sergeant?
:14:06. > :14:10.And that is why in tandem with the military solution, we should be
:14:11. > :14:14.thinking about what we can do here in the local communities to ensure
:14:15. > :14:21.that people perhaps have alternatives because is a certain
:14:22. > :14:28.glamour possibly of going on some mission. There seems to be agreement
:14:29. > :14:33.that there needs to be a lot more done than just military action?
:14:34. > :14:38.Education on the ground, etc. But you do disagree on whether at first
:14:39. > :14:45.you need to strike hard? Susan says yes, going, but with other force?
:14:46. > :14:52.I would like to see more co-ordination. What's the long-term
:14:53. > :14:56.goal, they'll all be dead? What exactly are we aiming for? We need a
:14:57. > :15:01.solution. Bombing isn't the solution. One of the solutions, 't
:15:02. > :15:06.the solution. One of the solutions, look at our allies - Saudi beheads
:15:07. > :15:10.people every Friday in public. This is our ally supposedly going to end
:15:11. > :15:19.ISIS. They've been funding it. Qatar similarly. We have our allies, the
:15:20. > :15:23.bedrock idealogical cover for knees operations ostensibly joining us to
:15:24. > :15:27.bomb them. There is no more case that Cameron can make. He talks
:15:28. > :15:32.about freedom, democracy and justice. Show us the freedom,
:15:33. > :15:37.justice and democracy in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan. This
:15:38. > :15:40.is a policy for war, for maybe dominating the region. The oil
:15:41. > :15:48.question. There are so many issues. It is very complex in the region.
:15:49. > :15:55.Cameron being moral I think is the wrong question. A quick one from
:15:56. > :16:02.Lizzie, who texts saying last week answer my is this week's ally. Let's
:16:03. > :16:10.get some views from Falmouth Rebecca. Good morning. I'm joined by
:16:11. > :16:14.a doctor from Exeter University who lectures in Islamic politics. Is
:16:15. > :16:20.bombing ISIS enough? Into, I don't think it is. Bombing in Iraq
:16:21. > :16:26.presents itself as a simple solution to a complex problem. We can't
:16:27. > :16:31.combat ISIS and protect Iraqi civilians and domestic civilians
:16:32. > :16:37.from domestic terrorism and protect Muslims with action. It is too much
:16:38. > :16:43.to ask. If bombing ISIS isn't enough, what is? We need to get our
:16:44. > :16:50.foreign policy right and realise we are in this situation because of
:16:51. > :16:55.moving into Iraq years ago. This has caused the problem. We need a strong
:16:56. > :16:59.alliance with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the Iraqi Government and possibly
:17:00. > :17:03.even the Syrian Government. Then we can work out a strategy. If bombing
:17:04. > :17:09.is part of that strategy, perhaps we can think about it. Do you think
:17:10. > :17:15.there can be a political solution? Certainly it is tempting to move to
:17:16. > :17:18.bombing because it's a very material, it gives you material
:17:19. > :17:24.results and there are other material things we can do like an arms
:17:25. > :17:31.embargo, and trying to stem funds and supplies to the organisation. In
:17:32. > :17:35.combination with political strategies, it could work. Thank you
:17:36. > :17:40.both. Those are the views here in Falmouth this morning. Thank you
:17:41. > :17:43.Rebecca. I want to put this to you, Julie. One of the guests said
:17:44. > :17:48.bombing is not the answer but it is part of the strategy. I would agree
:17:49. > :17:52.with that, but I think that blaming western foreign policy on this
:17:53. > :17:56.atrocity is overly simplistic and is missing the point. The rise in
:17:57. > :18:01.religious fundamentalism around the world needs to be looked at root and
:18:02. > :18:04.branch. Thank you to all of you. If you're in Northern Ireland, you can
:18:05. > :18:08.see Peter Taylor's documentary called Who Won The War tomorrow
:18:09. > :18:13.night on BBC One at 9 o'clock. The rest of the UK can see it on BBC Two
:18:14. > :18:19.sometime in October. Date to be announced. Our vote is still open.
:18:20. > :18:22.Do we have a moral duty to bomb Islamic State extremists? Remember,
:18:23. > :18:35.you can only vote once. You've got 20 minutes before the
:18:36. > :18:42.vote closes. You You've got 20 minutes before the
:18:43. > :18:44.vote closes. You can vote online - bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. We'll
:18:45. > :18:49.announce the results before the end of the programme. Still to come on
:18:50. > :18:53.Sunday Morning Live: Why marriage is better than living together. That's
:18:54. > :18:59.according to Britain's most senior Roman Catholic. It is surprising to
:19:00. > :19:03.me how at a certain point people who may have lived together suddenly
:19:04. > :19:10.come to the point of saying, we really ought to be married.
:19:11. > :19:12.A controversial art exhibition had to be closed
:19:13. > :19:14.on its opening night this week after protesters deemed it racist.
:19:15. > :19:17.The show, called Exhibit B, was being staged by London's Barbican
:19:18. > :19:20.Arts Centre and included some black performers, who were depicted as
:19:21. > :19:32.The Barbican says people are being denied an important work of art.
:19:33. > :19:44.The protesters maintain it's "an outrageous act of complicit racism".
:19:45. > :19:53.These were the scenes in London earlier this week as protesters
:19:54. > :20:09.disrupted the opening night of a new exhibition by South African artist
:20:10. > :20:11.Brett Bailey. This is exhibit exhibit, uth African artist Brett
:20:12. > :20:14.Bailey. This is exhibit exhibit, when it was -- Exhibit B when it was
:20:15. > :20:20.sheen in Edinburgh earlier this year. In the 19th century slaves
:20:21. > :20:26.were displayed as curiousities. The artist says it forces us to confront
:20:27. > :20:33.racism then and now. What was behind this was to dehumanise and objectify
:20:34. > :20:35.them. I take colonial history, the atrocities committed under
:20:36. > :20:41.colonialism, from the beginning of the 19th century all the way up
:20:42. > :20:45.until the liberation in the 1950s and '60s. I look at the residues of
:20:46. > :20:51.the racism we are still living with today. But those opposed to the work
:20:52. > :20:58.say it is complicit in the racism it is meant to be challenging. It is
:20:59. > :21:05.quite rude in 2014 that an institute like the Barbican thinks that
:21:06. > :21:09.putting black people in cages is challenging art and it is an
:21:10. > :21:14.important work for London. I keep saying to them, who is it important
:21:15. > :21:18.for? This is the art of offence. The exhibition was cancelled after
:21:19. > :21:23.safety concerns. The Barbican says the piece should still be shown and
:21:24. > :21:23.it is disturbed at the potential implications for freedom of
:21:24. > :21:31.expression. So should this show be banned, or is
:21:32. > :21:34.it anti-racism being taken too far? We're joined now by Stella Odunlami,
:21:35. > :21:37.who was part of the exhibition. By director and founder of the
:21:38. > :21:40.Institute For Ideas think-tank and And Lee Jasper, who was part
:21:41. > :21:56.of the protest outside the theatre. Welcome to you all. Lee, why censor
:21:57. > :22:02.art? We didn't censor it. We have not called for a change in the law
:22:03. > :22:07.so it is banned. We exercised our democratic right... And stopped it
:22:08. > :22:11.being shown. To oppose what we thought was an offensive arts work
:22:12. > :22:16.that would reinforce racism rather than undermine it. Why do you think
:22:17. > :22:21.that? We think that this show is no Anne Frank exhibition. It is not
:22:22. > :22:28.supported by an extensive learning programme in schools. It is not part
:22:29. > :22:31.of an on-going dialogue between the Barbican and London's plaque
:22:32. > :22:36.communities, who have been here for nearly 2,000 years. We've got
:22:37. > :22:40.institutions and organisations with whom they could have had a dialogue,
:22:41. > :22:43.as was the case around the Anne Frank exhibition. We feel there was
:22:44. > :22:47.a lack of responsibility on behalf of the Barbican in its failure to
:22:48. > :22:51.consult with communities with whom it was intending to put on an
:22:52. > :22:57.artwork for whom we were supposed to be the beneficiaries. We think the
:22:58. > :23:02.artist was misconceived in his responsibility in failing to ensure
:23:03. > :23:08.he had that dialogue. So it was about dialogue. Protesters said they
:23:09. > :23:13.found the work degrading. Stella, as part of the work, what are your
:23:14. > :23:17.thoughts on that? The piece was not made just for the black community
:23:18. > :23:22.but London's community at large, people who want to engage in art.
:23:23. > :23:28.The Anne Frank museum is a permanent exhibition. This was a show that was
:23:29. > :23:33.touring the world for five days. So does Anne Frank. The show was Super
:23:34. > :23:38.conceived with the idea I guess of shining a light on the history of
:23:39. > :23:42.colonialism, how damaging the atrocities that Europe has been
:23:43. > :23:47.built on. And even more importantly demonstrating how the legacy of that
:23:48. > :23:51.still haunts us today. Me and my fellow performers are all rather
:23:52. > :23:54.educated black artists who made ormers are all rather educated black
:23:55. > :23:57.artists who made the part to -- made the choice to take part in the
:23:58. > :24:04.piece, a powerful piece and needed to be seen. What part did you play?
:24:05. > :24:09.I played the part of a modern-day asylum seeker from Nigeria. Did you
:24:10. > :24:14.think that was offensive. Some of your performers were wearing masks,
:24:15. > :24:20.which look quite shocking, but the images... The images were accurate.
:24:21. > :24:25.I was dressed in modern-day clothing with a number pinned to my dress.
:24:26. > :24:32.What's offensive about that, Lee? You see the artwork in its whole
:24:33. > :24:38.context. It starts, it shows a series of taboos with black people
:24:39. > :24:41.in various degrees of restraint or objectification or oppression. We
:24:42. > :24:47.say that our story is much more than that. Part of the narrative that's
:24:48. > :24:51.being displayed here,s which about revisiting these ideas in
:24:52. > :24:55.colonialism and historical oppression miss the we could agency
:24:56. > :24:59.of that oppression, the white people, who had they been included
:25:00. > :25:05.in this tableau would have made more sense. If it had been a black
:25:06. > :25:09.director rather than a white director, would that have been more
:25:10. > :25:15.acceptable? I would close down a black show. You make a habit of
:25:16. > :25:19.closing down shows. It was called Slave Babies. You didn't see the
:25:20. > :25:24.show though did you? Did you see the show? Can I finish? Of course, and
:25:25. > :25:32.then we'll ask you if you saw the show. We closed down a Jamaican
:25:33. > :25:37.theatre company production around Slave Baby, supposed to be a comedy.
:25:38. > :25:42.We mobilised the black community in the late 1990s and said this isn't a
:25:43. > :25:51.subject... So you had seen the show? Yes. So you had? Slave Babies. The
:25:52. > :25:54.thing about exhibit B is it is the most written about artistic
:25:55. > :25:59.exhibition, so I didn't feel I needed to. Claire? It is a
:26:00. > :26:03.reasonable point that Stella makes, the boast about the ability to close
:26:04. > :26:08.down art shows as a banal of honour is the scary bit of this discussion.
:26:09. > :26:13.The argument or even the question, is thattee offensive? If we are
:26:14. > :26:16.going to close down art shows on the basis that they are offensive, we
:26:17. > :26:22.are going to censor anything that's offensive, we are inviting in a kind
:26:23. > :26:29.of authoritarian illiberal society that we live in. One of the things
:26:30. > :26:35.that is most distasteful and awful about this discussion is that it has
:26:36. > :26:40.done antiracism a huge disservice. It associates antiracism with not
:26:41. > :26:45.being able to Col rate or cope with even arguments it doesn't like. It
:26:46. > :26:50.actually, the idea that... I would like to be able to see this artwork.
:26:51. > :26:54.I've read a number of ruse, I might not enjoy as an artwork. I might
:26:55. > :26:58.want to critique it as an artwork. Of course there are pieces of
:26:59. > :27:02.theatre I think are not good theatre, pieces of art I don't like,
:27:03. > :27:05.but that's the basis on which es of art I don't like, but that's the
:27:06. > :27:09.basis on which they should be judged - art, not politics. If you say
:27:10. > :27:17.there is a group of people, you said democratic right to protest. That's
:27:18. > :27:23.a white privilege. Lee! I would suggest that you are insulting many
:27:24. > :27:27.black people who are for free speech and artistic freedom. I'm not
:27:28. > :27:31.entirely sure who elected you to represent the views of All Black
:27:32. > :27:37.people. Before you do... I don't think that gives you the right to
:27:38. > :27:42.close down and censor. Before this gets too personal and too narrowed
:27:43. > :27:48.down to issues of racism there's a broader issue and we can bandy words
:27:49. > :27:54.like freedom, but freedom from is always constrained by freedom to.
:27:55. > :28:01.Just because you have a right to say, and I'm of Jewish abtraction,
:28:02. > :28:08.say any wanted to glory the swastika... That might offend
:28:09. > :28:13.people. If you are an artist, rather than having to have recoursed to
:28:14. > :28:19.being policed by an external force, I remember the days of Lady
:28:20. > :28:23.Chatterley's Lover, you have the responsibility to see that actions
:28:24. > :28:27.have consequences, to think through. You can't just assert your freedoms
:28:28. > :28:32.without considering the freedoms of others that might be offended. A
:28:33. > :28:39.work of art does not affect freedom. Showing a work of art provokes, it
:28:40. > :28:43.can make you think. It can actually be boring or trite. The
:28:44. > :28:47.responsibility of an artist is to create a great artwork. The
:28:48. > :28:51.responsibility of audiences to go to that, if they want to see it, and to
:28:52. > :28:55.then decide whether they think it is any good. Would you go to something,
:28:56. > :29:02.say a similar human storks and I hate that phrase so much, and that's
:29:03. > :29:07.part of the issue, the human zoo, of people in striped clothes queuing up
:29:08. > :29:11.outside gas chambers. I do not think that the Holocaust or the treatment
:29:12. > :29:16.of Jews in the Holocaust shouldn't be the subject of works of art. I do
:29:17. > :29:20.not think there is any topic that is so taboo. I've seen some great works
:29:21. > :29:25.of art that have dealt with the Holocaust. The idea that I'm not
:29:26. > :29:32.allowed to talk about it because I'm not Jewish or see it or discuss
:29:33. > :29:37.it... Nobody said that. It is the idea that whether taboos can be seen
:29:38. > :29:42.as works of art. Racism and the issues that are raised by Exhibit B
:29:43. > :29:49.are not some dim and distant relic of our past. They are part of our
:29:50. > :29:53.present. Our ancestors are represented metaphorically in this
:29:54. > :29:57.exhibition. The other point is black people, we don't live in this
:29:58. > :30:09.society where all these freedoms apply to us and other people
:30:10. > :30:13.equally. Don't you? Stella? We face discrimination in the arts world,
:30:14. > :30:20.that is clear with the Barbican, and the city of London Corporation, 99%
:30:21. > :30:26.white board. These are the living everyday realities. And to say that
:30:27. > :30:30.somehow white artists and black artists are equal, that is where we
:30:31. > :30:36.should be but in Britain, and in London, but is not where BR. And
:30:37. > :30:42.that is what makes it racist? I would disagree. This is exposing
:30:43. > :30:51.racism and the construct is and the systems put in place and Europe has
:30:52. > :30:54.been built on this, that is what is exposed and he clearly draws a
:30:55. > :30:59.been built on this, that is what is between that and what is happening
:31:00. > :31:04.today. Essentially saying the same thing and by trying to censor his
:31:05. > :31:10.voice, you have censored 14 black artists who chose to be part of
:31:11. > :31:12.this. The player has been shown around the country, it has not been
:31:13. > :31:20.censored. -- the play. Let's head to Falmouth and find out
:31:21. > :31:33.what people in Cornwall have to say. Art has taken centre stage in
:31:34. > :31:37.Falmouth this week and some of the artists have joined us on the
:31:38. > :31:47.beach, as has Doctor Larry Lynch from University College Falmouth,
:31:48. > :31:51.should art be censored? I think not. I think overall, art prevents
:31:52. > :31:57.society and individuals the principal means through which they
:31:58. > :32:00.can reflect upon and discuss that which feels important and that which
:32:01. > :32:05.is difficult and that which challenges and confuses. Can't you
:32:06. > :32:11.do that without being offensive? Offence is an entirely subjective
:32:12. > :32:16.matter and if we silence any art that any individual finds offensive,
:32:17. > :32:21.the spectrum of the arts would be a very different matter and one only
:32:22. > :32:23.must visit a country where that happens to cause us to think deeply
:32:24. > :32:29.about the country we would like to live in. Let me bring in Emilia
:32:30. > :32:36.Wolf, one of the artists who has been taking part. Should work be
:32:37. > :32:39.censored? No, it should challenge audiences and working within
:32:40. > :32:45.children's literature, I believe that there are different ways about
:32:46. > :32:50.talking about such subjects, using metaphorical language and you must
:32:51. > :32:53.look at old nursery rhymes to see that you can talk about things in
:32:54. > :32:59.society and at the same time create something enjoyable and have
:33:00. > :33:01.multiple meanings. The element is that the artist a sedate
:33:02. > :33:07.responsibility for self-censorship? Yes, to some extent. Lovely, thank
:33:08. > :33:15.you for joining us. This is the view from the arts festival in Falmouth.
:33:16. > :33:19.Back to the studio. Lots of nodding. Some messages coming in, art like
:33:20. > :33:26.this does what history books cannot, being in a room with a man shackled
:33:27. > :33:29.forces empathy rather than sympathy. I have listened to the artists and
:33:30. > :33:35.models speaking about this, elegant people with an interest in respect.
:33:36. > :33:37.And most of the Black Londoners protesting are themselves
:33:38. > :33:42.descendants of slaves and don't need lessons in empathy, they're forced
:33:43. > :33:45.to confront the horrors of slavery on a personal level. Which is
:33:46. > :33:47.something that I know that you wouldn't horse, leave. Leggy for
:33:48. > :33:52.joining us. -- you would endorse. And you can see more
:33:53. > :33:54.about that Exhibit B exhibition You've been voting on
:33:55. > :33:58.our question this morning: Do we have a moral duty to
:33:59. > :34:02.bomb Islamic State extremists? The vote is closing now, so please
:34:03. > :34:05.do not text as your vote will not We'll bring you the result
:34:06. > :34:11.at the end of the show. He was The Fonz in the show,
:34:12. > :34:13.Happy Days. Now, Henry Winkler is better known
:34:14. > :34:19.to a new generation as Mr Rock, the music teacher in the CBBC
:34:20. > :34:21.series Hank Zipzer. The show follows the life
:34:22. > :34:23.of a schoolboy with dyslexia and is based on his own experiences
:34:24. > :34:26.growing up with it. I went to meet Henry Winkler to talk
:34:27. > :34:29.about his acting career, his Jewish faith, being awarded an honorary OBE
:34:30. > :34:48.and just how to be cool. Lovely to see you. Happy to be here.
:34:49. > :34:52.We will talk about acting career and your work with dyslexia but I would
:34:53. > :34:57.like to start at the beginning by talking about your parents, who came
:34:58. > :35:07.from Germany? And the escaped to America? They did, I am appreciative
:35:08. > :35:14.of their integral courage. You leave a country and start brand-new in
:35:15. > :35:20.another place with another language. They were pillars of the community?
:35:21. > :35:25.My parents were one of the founding couples of our selling gold and I
:35:26. > :35:33.had my bar mitzvah there. What sort of childhood did you have? There was
:35:34. > :35:41.frustration of not understanding that there was not a great student.
:35:42. > :35:47.People did not learn about learning challenges when I was a kid but
:35:48. > :35:53.there was no compromise in figuring, maybe something -- something is
:35:54. > :35:58.going on and I had a view of myself and my children could say what was
:35:59. > :36:05.on their minds as long as it did not make me weep. Did you weep a lot? I
:36:06. > :36:12.wept as a child because he frustration of not being able to
:36:13. > :36:15.express myself... It seems like you have this admiration on the one
:36:16. > :36:21.hand, for escaping from Nazi brutality, for setting up this
:36:22. > :36:24.separate life in America and becoming these bastions of their
:36:25. > :36:29.community and following their faith but on the other hand, making you
:36:30. > :36:31.cry, making you wish you would be a different person and promising
:36:32. > :36:39.yourself you would be a different parent? It was a struggle. I used to
:36:40. > :36:45.have a fantasy when I was in high school that they had moved and left
:36:46. > :36:52.no forwarding address! I would go home and I would figure out how to
:36:53. > :36:56.live on my own. Your thoughts growing up where I don't want to be
:36:57. > :37:03.this time of parent? Right. What was it like as a child? Did you believe
:37:04. > :37:06.you were stupid? Yes, here it is - the child hears every word you say
:37:07. > :37:12.to them. You think that you are joking, don't be silly! Don't be a
:37:13. > :37:21.moron! They think, they keep saying this! Maybe I am lazy and stupid? I
:37:22. > :37:29.cannot get geometry, I am stupid. I am not graduating with my class. I
:37:30. > :37:38.am not getting my diploma, I will get it if I pass summer school
:37:39. > :37:42.again. I finally got a diploma! That was 1963. Until this moment, from
:37:43. > :37:50.that time, not one person has mentioned the word hypotenuse to me!
:37:51. > :37:56.What were they thinking? When you do know you had dyslexia? And what you
:37:57. > :38:03.had was a condition? Where my stepson, who is now 42, was in year
:38:04. > :38:11.three, we had him tested and everything they said about him, I
:38:12. > :38:18.went, that is me! Oh my goodness! I have something with the name. I am
:38:19. > :38:24.not stupid. I am not lazy. My brain is wired differently. How did you
:38:25. > :38:32.learn the lines when you are having to learn scripts? I would read
:38:33. > :38:37.slowly, over and over again. God takes away, I can agree, but he
:38:38. > :38:43.gives, I am great at memorising and what I did not remember, I would
:38:44. > :38:47.become great at improvising. Which is where those characteristics of
:38:48. > :38:54.The Fonz came? Was that influenced by that? A lot of The Fonz came...
:38:55. > :39:00.Right, one of the first things I was asked to do was to go to the mirror
:39:01. > :39:05.and comb my hair. As Henry Winkler, I made a deal with myself, I would
:39:06. > :39:10.never comb my hair. Because every actor who has played anybody like
:39:11. > :39:16.The Fonz has combed their hair, they have always had that. It was cool.
:39:17. > :39:21.It is in the script, I went, I am so sorry... I cannot do that! I made a
:39:22. > :39:29.deal with myself. And the director said, I am so sorry, the producer
:39:30. > :39:34.wrote that, you have to! So I went, OK, and I went over to the mirror
:39:35. > :39:39.and I took out my comb, but I don't have to, it is perfect. And that is
:39:40. > :39:44.how that moment that defined the character for the next ten years
:39:45. > :39:57.came alive. And out of that, came the next moment. Which was, a! I
:39:58. > :40:05.added the whoa from horseback riding. He had great girls, he was a
:40:06. > :40:09.great triumph, was he like this boy with that difficult childhood
:40:10. > :40:13.struggling with reading and feeling like a failure? I have the most
:40:14. > :40:22.wonderful time. Playing that character. He was everybody I wished
:40:23. > :40:27.I was. But was not. Do you know? I think you are cool! Thank you. I
:40:28. > :40:34.have finally defined that. Being authentic. Which is what I'd tell
:40:35. > :40:39.every child I meet. You have greatness inside you. And your job
:40:40. > :40:46.is to figure out what that is. And give it to the world. Henry is
:40:47. > :40:50.currently touring the UK with a campaign is sizing that every child
:40:51. > :40:57.learns differently and all can succeed. You got an honorary OBE for
:40:58. > :41:02.your services. I take that with me, the beautiful medal. And I say to
:41:03. > :41:10.the children, I don't mean to brag, well, I am, but I was told that I
:41:11. > :41:20.would never amount to anything. Fellow! -- fellow! Somebody
:41:21. > :41:25.thought... Not just somebody, Her Majesty, the Queen! A friend of hers
:41:26. > :41:30.called up and said, if the Queen would like to give you an award,
:41:31. > :41:37.would you accept that? We will think about that, OK, fine! I mean...
:41:38. > :41:41.Today, Henry has a new generation of fans thinks to the Syriza Hank
:41:42. > :41:46.Zipzer books which detailed the adventures of a ten-year-old boy
:41:47. > :41:50.with dyslexia. Peshmerga series of. It is the story of my life with
:41:51. > :41:55.learning challenges, he is a very positive guy, is glass is half-full,
:41:56. > :42:01.he just spills that everywhere. The books have been adapted for CBBC.
:42:02. > :42:09.And he plays a version of his teacher, Mr Rock. Listen to me. You
:42:10. > :42:18.are the lucky charm. All about luck, that is inside you. Are you ready to
:42:19. > :42:24.hit that ball? Yes! He was my real teacher, he was called Mr Rock. He
:42:25. > :42:29.said one sentence to me, Henry Winkler, if you get out of high
:42:30. > :42:35.school, you will be OK! I kept that sentence in my heart. And you have
:42:36. > :42:43.been OK? Everything has worked out. LOL! It seems like The Fonz is a
:42:44. > :42:47.very long way away from where you are now? I know, but he was the man
:42:48. > :42:54.who started all of this, he opened the world to me so I am very
:42:55. > :43:01.grateful. This is how loyal he is to me. He reads Hank Zipzer. Could you
:43:02. > :43:06.ask for more? Could you ask for more? He leaves a lot of grease
:43:07. > :43:13.stains on the pages that, hey, he is reading them. It has been such a
:43:14. > :43:17.pleasure talking to you. Thank you very, very much.
:43:18. > :43:22.Today, if you're Catholic, you should be praying about the family.
:43:23. > :43:23.That's what the Pope would like, anyway.
:43:24. > :43:26.A synod is being held in Rome in a week considering aspects
:43:27. > :43:29.of family life, including marriage and divorce and the prayers are part
:43:30. > :43:34.At the moment, divorcees who marry again are not allowed to take
:43:35. > :43:37.communion or have their weddings in church unless their previous
:43:38. > :43:43.Cardinal Vincent Nichols, the leader of Catholics in England and Wales,
:43:44. > :43:45.talked to the BBC religious affairs correspondent Caroline Wyatt,
:43:46. > :43:48.who asked him first whether the synod would discuss couples not
:43:49. > :44:10.Oh, I think so. It is surprising to me how at a certain point people who
:44:11. > :44:14.may have lived together suddenly come to the point where they say,
:44:15. > :44:18.you know, we really ought to be married. I've had some fascinating
:44:19. > :44:22.experiences as a priest. I remember standing on the doorstep in a street
:44:23. > :44:25.in Liverpool and talking to a couple who were in the house. They had a
:44:26. > :44:29.couple of children. They weren't married. I said, you know, you
:44:30. > :44:35.really ought to think about getting married some time. And literally at
:44:36. > :44:39.that moment, a chair came crashing out of the next door house and the
:44:40. > :44:44.ashing out of the next door house and the chap said to me, "Well, I'm
:44:45. > :44:53.not sure, they are married." . So there are people come to a
:44:54. > :44:57.realisation that the enriching of their relationship in marriage is
:44:58. > :45:03.something that would bring them so much. The Pope witnessed the
:45:04. > :45:07.marriage of 20 couples, some of whom had been living together and had
:45:08. > :45:14.children. It is an unusual thing for a Pope to do. It is not an unusual
:45:15. > :45:19.thing for a Catholic priest to do. I doubt there's a priest in this
:45:20. > :45:23.country that hasn't helped people to marriage at some stage in their
:45:24. > :45:27.lives. Do you think the Catholic view of ple to marriage at some
:45:28. > :45:29.stage in their lives. Do you think the Catholic view of relationships
:45:30. > :45:31.thinks in -- fits in with the modern world? I'm not quite sure what the
:45:32. > :45:35.modern view with relationships really is. If you listen to
:45:36. > :45:42.youngsters today, and there was quite an interesting survey not long
:45:43. > :45:46.ago of teenagers today don't take the same free and easy attitude that
:45:47. > :45:51.some of their parents might have taken at that age. And that's with
:45:52. > :45:56.regard to alcohol. It was with regard to drug abuse. And it was
:45:57. > :46:06.certainly with regard to intimate relationships. So I don't think in
:46:07. > :46:13.some of these regards our society is not open to the invitation to some
:46:14. > :46:16.higher standards, to some standards that more deliberately respect the
:46:17. > :46:25.innate dignity of each person. I think it is true to say that casual
:46:26. > :46:28.relationships, casual sexual relationships, are actually sexual
:46:29. > :46:40.relationships with somebody's future husband or wife. I think if we had
:46:41. > :46:44.that more in mind and expressed a bit more self discipline, self
:46:45. > :46:47.regard for the goodness and the bute of each, self regard for the
:46:48. > :46:51.goodness and the bute of each other rather than -- beauty of other
:46:52. > :46:55.rather than a headlong rush on a Friday night to drink and all that
:46:56. > :47:01.follows, I think we would be a happier society.
:47:02. > :47:05.So, Cardinal Nichols is clear about where the Catholic Church
:47:06. > :47:07.stands on relationships. But the number of couples living
:47:08. > :47:10.together without getting married in the UK has doubled to nearly 6
:47:11. > :47:13.million in the past 20 years. How much then do vows matter?
:47:14. > :47:14.Is a marriage certificate still important?
:47:15. > :47:17.We're joined now by the feminist writer Julie Bindel,
:47:18. > :47:19.who was with us earlier, Catholic journalist Melanie McDonagh, and
:47:20. > :47:26.Vincent McGovern from the campaign group, Families Need Fathers.
:47:27. > :47:32.Melanie, you heard Cardinal Nicholls saying he tells cohabiting couples,
:47:33. > :47:37.you really ought to think about being married. Why? Because it gives
:47:38. > :47:39.that element of psychic security I think that people need in a
:47:40. > :47:43.relationship. There is the solidity that comes from the social
:47:44. > :47:49.recognition of the whole thing. There's been the public ceremony.
:47:50. > :47:55.You've gone to the of getting people to witness it, your relations have
:47:56. > :47:58.bought you a canteen of cutlery, you've gone to a colossal expense to
:47:59. > :48:02.get people together to witness it, so it binds you and the other
:48:03. > :48:06.partner into it. That gives you that element of security I think which is
:48:07. > :48:11.psychologically important. Do you think the Catholic Church is a
:48:12. > :48:16.little too rigid perhaps on second marriages, that it is not enough to
:48:17. > :48:20.have a divorce. You have to have an annulment too, so you are declaring
:48:21. > :48:30.that your previous marriage had no validity whatsoever? There has to be
:48:31. > :48:34.an impediment at the time you were married, there has to have been a
:48:35. > :48:39.problem at the outset. The Catholic Church is more rigorous than the
:48:40. > :48:44.Orthodox Church, but if you make a commitment for better or worse, to
:48:45. > :48:50.death do us part, the Church is taking you at your word. The
:48:51. > :48:55.contract is between the couple. It is an important contract that's
:48:56. > :49:00.rised by the church and should be held as something we should protect
:49:01. > :49:05.at all costs, do you agree? I agree in the past that marriage was a
:49:06. > :49:11.wonderful institution which brought much good for children and social
:49:12. > :49:15.stability. But in modern Metropolitan society, we deal with
:49:16. > :49:19.the break-ups of marriages and divorce. With the high percentage of
:49:20. > :49:24.marriages and divorce, marriages is quite often a handicap particularly
:49:25. > :49:30.to fathers in the divorce courts, because they are perceived as being
:49:31. > :49:33.to have benefitted from the marriage excessively, that they are
:49:34. > :49:39.controlling, patriarchal and they are a weapon against the father. Are
:49:40. > :49:43.you against marriage per se or at least the Catholics' view of a
:49:44. > :49:47.marriage? It is the equivalent of putting a broken bonnet on a car. It
:49:48. > :49:54.is cosmetic. So don't keep people together if the relationship is
:49:55. > :49:58.failing. Allow them to have a good relationship with their children
:49:59. > :50:08.post worse or separation is more important to me. So it is harder to
:50:09. > :50:12.(Inaudible) The Catholic Church are entitled to have strict rules. If
:50:13. > :50:16.they start saying we are in the modern world, so it doesn't matter,
:50:17. > :50:21.they are having a discussion, but all I'm saying is that's an entirely
:50:22. > :50:27.appropriate thing for the Catholic Church to say internally. They see
:50:28. > :50:32.it as a sacrament and I have admiration for that. I get nervous
:50:33. > :50:37.when as a society and particularly when the state tells Churches how to
:50:38. > :50:42.behave, why can't you be like us? Leave them alone. On marriage
:50:43. > :50:48.generally, I'm quite interested in the fact that I've maybe changed my
:50:49. > :50:54.mind on this over the years, I like the idealism of saying I will stick
:50:55. > :50:59.with you forever. I hate things like prenuptial agreements. It seems so
:51:00. > :51:04.sort of kind of like dispiriting. Everybody is nodding at that one.
:51:05. > :51:07.Even though I know marriages don't break up and don't work and you
:51:08. > :51:12.can't force people to stay together, I don't think you can go into a
:51:13. > :51:17.marriage and say I'm now planning for getting out of it. This
:51:18. > :51:22.premarriage counselling that goes on. They are doing it in schools,
:51:23. > :51:26.the problems of marriage. Let people have a dream for a while. Having
:51:27. > :51:31.said that, I do not think people need to get married to be happy in
:51:32. > :51:35.relationships. Julie? Absolutely. In fact Britain has the highest divorce
:51:36. > :51:39.rate of anywhere in Europe. Marriage is a failing institution, which is
:51:40. > :51:42.probably why David Cameron invited lesbians and gaze to join it.
:51:43. > :51:47.Because it really needs to swell its numbers. And it has. There were more
:51:48. > :51:53.marriages in 2012 than the year before. And no doubt sales of bridal
:51:54. > :52:02.magazines and the like. It is bad for women. Why? Because it relies on
:52:03. > :52:05.the old kind of myth and idea that women go from belonging to the
:52:06. > :52:09.father to belonging to the husband. Do you think it is still
:52:10. > :52:13.patriarchal? Absolutely it is. I don't think you can ever reform it
:52:14. > :52:18.to the degree that women are equal within it. If you look at who is
:52:19. > :52:22.actually going to the divorce court and asking for separations, it is
:52:23. > :52:28.mainly women. A big reason is domestic violence. This nirvana that
:52:29. > :52:31.the Catholic Church is proposing in terms of relationships, it is really
:52:32. > :52:37.quite ridiculous when you look at levels of domestic violence and
:52:38. > :52:43.child sexual abuse within marriage. Medicalny? The reality is that
:52:44. > :52:47.marriage is good for the people who take part in it. It is a protective
:52:48. > :52:56.factor against suicide and self harm. That's the case. Where are
:52:57. > :53:02.those statistics from, Melanie? There've been psychological studies
:53:03. > :53:09.about the benefits of marriage by Brenda Almond in the UK and in the
:53:10. > :53:12.US which suggest that marriage is overwhelmingly better for children
:53:13. > :53:17.and good for the participants. What I wanted to pick you up on was the
:53:18. > :53:21.element of abuse in relationships, which is more prevalent in
:53:22. > :53:26.cohabiting than maritalries. You have no evidence for that at all.
:53:27. > :53:33.There is no suggestion. You can both use evidence to back each other's
:53:34. > :53:39.position. I'm not citing statistics that don't really exist or exist
:53:40. > :53:45.within the Catholic Church. If you look at forced or early marriage or
:53:46. > :53:51.on the Catholic Church's insistence, j Unless we have the evidence in
:53:52. > :53:57.front of us, it is probably Beth to get the view from Falmouth. We have
:53:58. > :54:05.a real life love story on the beach in Falmouth. Jack Hayes and when his
:54:06. > :54:09.marriage ended, swore off marriage for good. There's been a suggestion
:54:10. > :54:15.that marriage is bad for women but you are about to enter into marriage
:54:16. > :54:18.for a second time. It is empowering, it is your choice to make. We want
:54:19. > :54:24.marriage to mark the start of our relationship together. It was very
:54:25. > :54:26.important to us rather than be some inevitable conclusion or because of
:54:27. > :54:29.any social pressure. It is just because we love each other. And
:54:30. > :54:34.living together you felt wasn't enough of a commitment? We didn't.
:54:35. > :54:39.We wanted to make that commitment to each other and together as a family
:54:40. > :54:45.as well with our children. And for everybody around us to know that. If
:54:46. > :54:49.I can bring in Father John, is their story unusual or is this something
:54:50. > :54:52.you are hearing a lot of now? In terms of couples wanting to make a
:54:53. > :54:57.real commitment and while some couples come to me and they want to
:54:58. > :55:01.make that lifelong decisive commitment. That's the heart of
:55:02. > :55:05.marriage. It is good for women, for men, for society and for children.
:55:06. > :55:08.It provides the most stable environment for children when
:55:09. > :55:11.they've got a loving parents held together in love in marriage. And
:55:12. > :55:15.living together doesn't achieve that? No, it doesn't. Most people
:55:16. > :55:19.come to realise that. They want that decisive step of committing
:55:20. > :55:24.themselves in marriage. Father John, thank you. That's it from Falmouth
:55:25. > :55:30.this morning but very much in favour of love and marriage. Just the one
:55:31. > :55:35.piece of empublic inquiry A-levelled I managed to get yesterday from the
:55:36. > :55:41.the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Couples who choose to marry are
:55:42. > :55:44.different from those who cohabit in ethnicity, occupation, income, age
:55:45. > :55:48.and relationship dooration. When you take all those out there is no
:55:49. > :55:56.statistical significance in child outcome. Make of that what you will.
:55:57. > :55:59.The thing about that is that it doesn't, it does indeed show that
:56:00. > :56:03.marriage is in a difficult situation, because it has become a
:56:04. > :56:08.class issue and it has become a middle class preoccupation. It is
:56:09. > :56:14.the death of working class marriage that really does concern me, because
:56:15. > :56:19.it is increasingly the case that people who take the trouble to make
:56:20. > :56:23.a commitment and do articulate that commitment in a formal ceremony are
:56:24. > :56:27.more likely to be middle class. Has it become a class issue? It is
:56:28. > :56:30.definitely a class issue, because the system is rigged against
:56:31. > :56:34.marriage of working class. A major part of the industry and the family
:56:35. > :56:41.courts and breakdown is the permanent depiction of women as
:56:42. > :56:45.being victims. Victims. It is saying that women aren't capable of making
:56:46. > :57:14.their own decisions and depicting men as brutal. A it is skewed.
:57:15. > :57:23.I think it indicates that people understand that ISIS is a terrifying
:57:24. > :57:27.force and they are being told that they are a threat to western
:57:28. > :57:31.civilisation. If that's the case, one ought to do something. Is I
:57:32. > :57:37.don't necessarily think that it means that everyone is gung-ho
:57:38. > :57:43.pro-war and the high opposition is an indication that it is not the
:57:44. > :57:46.same as previous Gulf Wars. I liked your discussion that indicated that
:57:47. > :57:51.this is a complicated, challenging issue and not a straightforward one.
:57:52. > :57:56.It is not about invading Iraq, which I would have opposed or Syria, which
:57:57. > :58:05.I would have opposed. But if they are taking on and wanting to destroy
:58:06. > :58:11.western civilisation, even I who is an ante militarist, I am saying no
:58:12. > :58:20.you are not, and that might require violence. If you ask people if we
:58:21. > :58:22.That's it for this morning. Thanks moral duty to intervene.
:58:23. > :58:25.That's it for this morning. Thanks to all my guests here in the studio
:58:26. > :58:28.and those who joined us from Falmouth with Rebecca Wills. We'll
:58:29. > :58:30.be back next Sunday morning at 10 o'clock. I hope you can join us.
:58:31. > :59:13.Goodbye. Goodbye.
:59:14. > :59:16.The stage is set for the Party Conference Season 2014.
:59:17. > :59:20.Stay with BBC News for the key moments,