:00:09. > :00:13.show that gets to the heart and soul of the week's big stories. On
:00:14. > :00:18.today's programme, animals in the lab, a university is accused of
:00:19. > :00:23.allowing them to suffer. Why experiment at all? We are a nation
:00:24. > :00:33.of givers, but are there too many charities wanting our money?
:00:34. > :00:37.Look at that! He was the famous face of Formula
:00:38. > :00:44.One. We discover Murray Walker's surprising secrets. Have you passed
:00:45. > :00:46.your driving test? I have to look a bit shifty because I have never
:00:47. > :01:09.actually taken a driving test! Good morning.
:01:10. > :01:15.I'm Sian Williams. More revelations from Murray Walker later on. We're
:01:16. > :01:19.out and about in the Cotswolds with Andrew Plant who has a new friend
:01:20. > :01:26.with him. Andrew. Good morning, Sian. This is Maggie our 31-year-old
:01:27. > :01:33.Harris hawk and we will see her spread her wings shortly, but it is
:01:34. > :01:42.not falconry here at the Cotswolds Show here in Cirencester. We are
:01:43. > :01:51.going to be speaking to some people later. We will leave you with a
:01:52. > :01:58.display of Maggie's prowess. Off you go! Thank you. Well done Maggie.
:01:59. > :02:08.Time to say hello to our guests this morning. The actress, Nina Wadia
:02:09. > :02:18.joins us, Sir Max Hastings, the historian. And Kevin Maguire, the
:02:19. > :02:23.editor of the Daily Mirror and Dr Robert Beckford behind such
:02:24. > :02:33.documentaries like Who Wrote The Bible? You can comment by phone,
:02:34. > :02:43.text, e-mail or by Twitter, Facebook.
:02:44. > :02:50.Do you know how many animals are experimented on in Britain each
:02:51. > :02:55.year? Recent figures suggest it is more than four million. The latest
:02:56. > :02:59.numbers will be out next week. How well are those animals looked after?
:03:00. > :03:05.Recently a couple of leading science universities were criticised over
:03:06. > :03:12.their animal welfare standards. We are one of the world's leaders in
:03:13. > :03:18.scientific animal experimentation, but can we zil be both?
:03:19. > :03:21.scientific animal experimentation, still be both? Every new drug has to
:03:22. > :03:29.be tested on animals by law. Scientists say it is vital for
:03:30. > :03:32.developing new medicines. They say every animal research project must
:03:33. > :03:42.be approved by Government inspectors who are all doctors and vets and be
:03:43. > :03:46.ethically reviewed too. Less than a fifth of animal research is for
:03:47. > :03:51.serious diseases and too many trials fail or are harmful because of the
:03:52. > :03:56.differences between species. Last month cage brim University was
:03:57. > :03:59.criticised for its experiments on sheep after a report suggested
:04:00. > :04:02.cruelty during research into their brains. The university said sheep
:04:03. > :04:10.are used because there is no alternative. They are investigating
:04:11. > :04:14.allegations of mistreatment. Campaigners claim all research is
:04:15. > :04:19.unnecessary and needs to stop. Scientists say we wouldn't have
:04:20. > :04:23.advances in medicine out them. So that's the question for our text and
:04:24. > :04:31.online vote this week. We're going to be asking you, should animal
:04:32. > :04:41.experiments be banned? Text the word vote followed by yes or no to 81771.
:04:42. > :04:46.You can only vote once and go online to vote for free at: And terms and
:04:47. > :04:49.conditions can be found online. The results will be, of course,
:04:50. > :04:57.announced at the end of the programme.
:04:58. > :05:00.So let's ask Robert first. Should anle experiments -- animal
:05:01. > :05:06.experiments be banned? Yes, scientists are moving towards a
:05:07. > :05:10.complete ban. It is described replacing tests on animals with
:05:11. > :05:15.other forms of tests. We know about the suffering inflicted on animals
:05:16. > :05:19.20, 30, and 50 ago, we weren't aware if cats and dogs were suffering in
:05:20. > :05:23.the same way as human beings do and we know that's the case now. It is
:05:24. > :05:30.not profb that all the -- proven that all the testing will lead to
:05:31. > :05:32.come cure. Some brilliant minds are working on these projects and we
:05:33. > :05:38.should be able to find alternative ways of testing. It is about the
:05:39. > :05:45.sanctity of human life and that means about the sanctity of animal
:05:46. > :05:51.life? There will be some who leave that an animal life is the same as a
:05:52. > :05:55.human life. I hate the idea of an absolute ban. None of us could
:05:56. > :05:59.support cruelty to animals and it will be a great day when the
:06:00. > :06:04.technology can replace animal testing. A lot of people feel
:06:05. > :06:08.unhappy about animal testing for cosmetics, but when it comes to
:06:09. > :06:14.animal testing that's going to save human lives, then most of society
:06:15. > :06:23.wouldn't agree with you, but there is no technological alternative.
:06:24. > :06:28.Colin Blakemore was knighted, he is couragious and said we need to have
:06:29. > :06:32.animal testing in order to cure some of the most terrible diseases as
:06:33. > :06:35.long as respected scientists like Colin Blakemore say that, we have to
:06:36. > :06:41.respect their judgement. But it will be a great day when animal testing
:06:42. > :06:46.is no longer at thes. But we're not -- necessary. But we're not there
:06:47. > :06:53.yet? Scientists say we're not there yet. Nina, four million animal
:06:54. > :06:58.experiments a year. That was a shock. However, I do agree with Max,
:06:59. > :07:04.I feel that yes, all of us sitting here I'm sure agree that animal
:07:05. > :07:08.testing should stop. However, having been in situation where I have been
:07:09. > :07:12.with friends with pretty bad diseases, breast cancer, terminal
:07:13. > :07:16.cancer who passed away, I would fight for their right for us to
:07:17. > :07:21.experiment on animals so we can find a cure at some point. Again, I don't
:07:22. > :07:25.agree with it being done for cosmetics or for vanity, but in
:07:26. > :07:31.terms of medical research and scientific reasons, if we need to do
:07:32. > :07:36.it, as horrible and horrid as it is, these animals will suffer, it would
:07:37. > :07:44.be preferable for it to be animals as opposed to humans. Testing for
:07:45. > :07:48.cosmetics is banned in the EU, but not worldwide? In large parts of the
:07:49. > :07:53.world. In large parts of the world it goes on. Kevin, I wonder if
:07:54. > :07:57.that's the distinction for you because you have to draw a line
:07:58. > :08:04.somewhere. It is not OK for cosmetics, it is OK for testing
:08:05. > :08:10.household products, the toxicity of drugs and medical research, where is
:08:11. > :08:13.that line drawn for you? The brilliant minds that Robert referred
:08:14. > :08:19.to, most of them think you need to test these drugs, the medical
:08:20. > :08:25.advances on animals before you begin testing them on people. I would like
:08:26. > :08:28.animal to be replaced, I agree with Max when we don't have to do
:08:29. > :08:34.anymore. By that time we have probably got a cure for cancer and
:08:35. > :08:40.probably got a cure for Parkinson's and probably got a cure for
:08:41. > :08:44.Alzheimer's. If a rat or a mouse is going to have to be tested upon, to
:08:45. > :08:49.save somebody's life, I don't think there is an equivalent between a
:08:50. > :08:53.rodent and a human. I'm all for saving human lives. Yes, we place,
:08:54. > :08:59.reduce, animals wherever you can, but when it comes to the crunch, I
:09:00. > :09:04.don't think people should face death and a terrible way to the future
:09:05. > :09:09.because we want to save a rat. Let's put that point to someone who
:09:10. > :09:16.campaigned against animal testing. Joining us is Dr Katie Taylor. Good
:09:17. > :09:20.morning to you, Katie. Good morning. Is this a simple choice between
:09:21. > :09:24.animal life and human life? No, it's not. What's important is are animals
:09:25. > :09:29.important enough that they can be protected from pain, suffering and
:09:30. > :09:34.distress? It is really important and people so far have focussed the
:09:35. > :09:40.debate on the ethicacy of animal testing. One in 20 drugs fail in
:09:41. > :09:44.human clinical trials because the animal tests have not done their
:09:45. > :09:49.job. They have not predicted whether the drugs will be safe or work. We
:09:50. > :09:57.have been doing animal testing for over 100 years now. We don't have
:09:58. > :10:01.cures for cancer, I have, Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's.
:10:02. > :10:07.All these diseases affect all of us, even myself, who is against animal
:10:08. > :10:14.testing. Animal research helped develop penicillin, blood
:10:15. > :10:21.transfusions, vaccinations, asthma inhalers. 2,000 people die from
:10:22. > :10:25.asthma. Animal experiments helped develop the inhaler, would you take
:10:26. > :10:29.them back? Those inventions were 50 to 100 years ago. Were you against
:10:30. > :10:34.it as a principle? Does it matter if it was 50 years ago or now? If you
:10:35. > :10:38.are talking about science, no other business would say, I did something
:10:39. > :10:43.great 50 years ago, keep feeding me millions of pounds and I'll try and
:10:44. > :10:47.repeat it. We've been waiting 50 years for these advances. Animal
:10:48. > :10:50.testing possibly was helpful years and years ago when we were studying
:10:51. > :10:55.simple diseases that animals also suffered from. We're looking at
:10:56. > :11:02.diseases have animals don't get. They don't get cancer. They don't
:11:03. > :11:05.get Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. Researchers are investing millions
:11:06. > :11:08.of pounds of taxpayers money, harming millions of animal, trying
:11:09. > :11:13.to give them these diseases they don't have and that's a big step
:11:14. > :11:17.away from actually producing drugs and treatments. Are you really
:11:18. > :11:23.suggesting... Let me finish. Are you saying that all those scientists
:11:24. > :11:26.like Colin Blakemore who tell us, these are hugely distinguished,
:11:27. > :11:31.qualified people who tell us that animal testing is desperately
:11:32. > :11:34.needed, they are lying to us? I think they're mistaken and what they
:11:35. > :11:39.are not doing, they are not reviewing the ethicacy of animal
:11:40. > :11:44.tests and it is down to people such as ourselves that do that and there
:11:45. > :11:47.was a good article in the British Medical Journal a few weeks ago that
:11:48. > :11:51.said if you look back at how effective animal tests have been in
:11:52. > :11:56.the last 20 or 30 years, they are failing. Scientists such as Colin
:11:57. > :12:06.Blakemore built his life on doing animal experiments because he found
:12:07. > :12:09.it interesting. It is intellectually stimulating. It is important that
:12:10. > :12:12.people realise that less than 10% of the animal testing that goes on in
:12:13. > :12:17.this country is required by law. The majority is what we call basic
:12:18. > :12:22.medical research. It is cure osity driven. The question is whether the
:12:23. > :12:29.British public would support that work? Let me point that to our
:12:30. > :12:35.panel. This is about intellectual cure osity. The scientists are doing
:12:36. > :12:43.this not necessarily to find cures for diseases? She was saying that
:12:44. > :12:50.scientists don't examine the ethics and said in the British Medical
:12:51. > :12:54.Journal, they are questioning it there. It is expensive to test on
:12:55. > :12:58.animals. So there is an economic driver against it. They would do
:12:59. > :13:03.something different if they could do it. They don't want to inflict pain
:13:04. > :13:08.on animals. They are attempting to come up with cures. For illnesses
:13:09. > :13:15.and diseases that kill many, many people. If you see the suffering
:13:16. > :13:21.inflicted on animals. It is difficult when you see that to
:13:22. > :13:25.justify the testing and the limited impact it often has. No all of the
:13:26. > :13:34.testing leads to some cure. I work in a field where some theologians
:13:35. > :13:39.believe that animals have souls. It is not Christian. It is in other
:13:40. > :13:47.tradition and other world religions. It boils down to, do we believe that
:13:48. > :13:57.animals have rights? We want to go to the Cotswolds show and join
:13:58. > :14:07.Andrew Plant. Good morning, Andrew. Good morning, Sian. This is our
:14:08. > :14:12.golden Guernsey goat. He is on the endangered list. Judy, where do you
:14:13. > :14:16.stand on animal testing? I don't know a lot about it because I'm a
:14:17. > :14:22.farmer. A friend had her life saved as a result of animal testing, but I
:14:23. > :14:25.would feel uncomfortable animals being tested so I can wear lipstick.
:14:26. > :14:31.You have to see animals die, don't you? I do. I love animals. Quality
:14:32. > :14:35.of life and quality of death is what we're about. And don't forget
:14:36. > :14:41.farming used to have a very, very bad press. But it is very
:14:42. > :14:45.transparent now farming. British farming is good. And maybe animal
:14:46. > :14:54.testing has got something to learn from farming. Thank you very much
:14:55. > :15:02.indeed. Over here we have Claire, who runs an animal sanctuary. A lot
:15:03. > :15:09.of the dogs used in animal testing have never seen grass, never walked
:15:10. > :15:13.outside. I have got a very strong argument against. These animals, if
:15:14. > :15:17.they make it out, are very damaged, unfortunately, and take a lot of
:15:18. > :15:25.rehabilitation to get them into somewhere where they feel safe.
:15:26. > :15:31.Finally, we have God grant. You spend a lot of your time outside.
:15:32. > :15:35.What is your opinion? For cosmetic reasons it is an absolute no. For
:15:36. > :15:40.medical reasons I can understand that maybe if I had a child that was
:15:41. > :15:45.really sick and they thought there was secured through animal testing,
:15:46. > :15:50.that is a possibility. We have got to seek alternatives. Let's get the
:15:51. > :15:53.pharmaceutical companies to invest back into the keeping of these
:15:54. > :16:02.animals. They are making a lot of money off them. Some opinions here
:16:03. > :16:05.from the Cotswolds show. We will be talking to more people here later.
:16:06. > :16:13.Back to you. Thank you Andrew. Some really valid
:16:14. > :16:18.points made there. At the moment we are not in a position where there is
:16:19. > :16:23.an alternative? Right. We are all saying the same thing. We are
:16:24. > :16:28.saying, if it is absolutely necessary, it needs to be done. But
:16:29. > :16:34.if it isn't... Maybe that is the answer. Maybe there are no answers.
:16:35. > :16:40.Maybe humanity is looking for an answer that will never come. In the
:16:41. > :16:48.meantime... Lets just wait until we find out whether baby animals have
:16:49. > :16:55.souls. We need to do that. Until we can then discuss theology and all
:16:56. > :16:59.the other bits that go with it. Don't downplay theology! It isn't
:17:00. > :17:03.about abstract reality. It is Don't downplay theology! It isn't
:17:04. > :17:07.concrete experiences we have to engage with on a daily basis. We
:17:08. > :17:10.live on a planet that needs to be sustained. Part of that order is
:17:11. > :17:16.caring for the animals, caring for the environment. Unless we find ways
:17:17. > :17:24.of reaffirming our connectedness and respecting all forms of creation, we
:17:25. > :17:28.are in trouble. What you trying to suggest, Robert, that animals and
:17:29. > :17:38.people should be judged by the same standard? No, I am saying animals
:17:39. > :17:41.should have rights. They are entitled to be treated with a degree
:17:42. > :17:48.of respect. One of the things we could all agree about, and even the
:17:49. > :17:51.anti-vivisection Society, it's not difficult to suggest that those who
:17:52. > :17:59.breach the laws and the rules about the treatment of animals should be
:18:00. > :18:06.punished extremely severely. It is not clear-cut. The scientific
:18:07. > :18:12.establishment contests the data. Briefly, Kevin. Roberts said he did
:18:13. > :18:18.not want to see animals suffer. I do not want to see animals suffer. I do
:18:19. > :18:24.not want to see kids suffering from cancer, old people with Alzheimer's
:18:25. > :18:28.or Parkinson's. Thank you all. Please comment on
:18:29. > :18:32.this if you're watching at home. The vote is still open. Should animal
:18:33. > :18:48.experiments be banned? You can only vote once.
:18:49. > :18:58.You have about 20 minutes before the vote closes. You can also vote
:18:59. > :19:05.online. Results will be announced at the end
:19:06. > :19:06.of the show. Still to come, should Christian school assemblies be
:19:07. > :19:22.consigned to history? To many charities are doing the same
:19:23. > :19:25.thing and competing unnecessarily for our hearts and our money, so
:19:26. > :19:31.says the outgoing chief executive of the charity commission. There are no
:19:32. > :19:35.more than 160,000 registered in England and Wales and the commission
:19:36. > :19:42.receives about 30 new applications every week. Should we have fewer
:19:43. > :19:48.charities? We join thousands of fundraisers at a triathlon in
:19:49. > :19:51.Berkshire to ask them. The sun was shining at Dorney Lake
:19:52. > :19:56.in Berkshire earlier this week as competitors ran, swam and cycles.
:19:57. > :20:00.All entry fees were donated to the Samaritans, which has been raising
:20:01. > :20:05.money for the last 60 years. Do those at the event feel there are
:20:06. > :20:08.too many charities to support? It is difficult to say there are too many.
:20:09. > :20:13.A lot of people are touched with personal charities. It is quite
:20:14. > :20:20.difficult to decide where you should put your charitable pound. Certainly
:20:21. > :20:23.from the business front we rotate. We have competitions every couple of
:20:24. > :20:33.years. All the staff members will vote. We mix it up a little bit like
:20:34. > :20:37.that. I don't think there are too many charities in Britain today.
:20:38. > :20:40.Lots of charities provide really important services in society,
:20:41. > :20:44.whether that is actual services, campaigning, research... They are
:20:45. > :20:49.often very come to entry to each other. Where charities achieve the
:20:50. > :20:55.most success where they can work together for a shared aim.
:20:56. > :21:01.As long as I am not expected to donate to every single one, then I
:21:02. > :21:05.think an element of choice is good. It creates competition among the
:21:06. > :21:13.charities themselves. And they have actually got to work for the
:21:14. > :21:18.donations given to them. Max, competition is good. If you have a
:21:19. > :21:24.cause that you're passionate about, why not? I think there are too many
:21:25. > :21:30.charities. The charities we have got need more scrutiny than they
:21:31. > :21:33.receive. Just by saying, we want to do good, it tends to disqualify the
:21:34. > :21:40.usual scrutiny we bring to bear on politicians, businesses etc. Many
:21:41. > :21:44.charities do wonderful things. But also, all the questions, if you look
:21:45. > :21:47.at any of the website of the big charities, you would be amazed at
:21:48. > :21:51.how little they tell you about how much their executives are paid and
:21:52. > :21:56.how much is spent on administration, advertising etc. We had a charity in
:21:57. > :22:02.our family some years ago. It was suggested that we should set up a
:22:03. > :22:09.charity in memory of this particular family member and we all agreed in
:22:10. > :22:13.the end, no. Wide? We felt it much more useful to give money and give
:22:14. > :22:17.support to an existing charity to examine the problem. I think
:22:18. > :22:22.creating these individual charities often becomes self-indulgent. It
:22:23. > :22:26.becomes about making the bereaved feel-good rather than about thinking
:22:27. > :22:33.what may actually best help to address this particular problem,
:22:34. > :22:36.whatever it may be. If you have more than 160,000 charities, the issue is
:22:37. > :22:42.with policing them effectively. There are not enough people to look
:22:43. > :22:46.at the books? Yes, and the outgoing chief executive of the commission
:22:47. > :22:49.complained about spending cuts. I could get with -- get rid of quite a
:22:50. > :22:53.few hundred, quite a few thousand charities. I cannot believe Eton and
:22:54. > :22:59.the public schools are all charities. Charterhouse is a
:23:00. > :23:04.charity. I cannot see what the societal good is further. Private
:23:05. > :23:07.schools have to, if they have a charitable status, they have to
:23:08. > :23:13.prove they are doing something beyond the pupils in that school.
:23:14. > :23:15.Yes, once a month they have to let the kids from the local
:23:16. > :23:24.comprehensive run about their football pitch! There are only about
:23:25. > :23:33.a thousand of them anyway. Derek Morkan than 2000 veterans charities.
:23:34. > :23:39.-- there are more than. It is crazy. It may be crazy, Max, but I think
:23:40. > :23:45.diversity is a strength. When you have... There is something wonderful
:23:46. > :23:49.that you should celebrate if another family can raise money if it is
:23:50. > :23:56.around somebody who is known locally. What are these charities
:23:57. > :23:59.actually doing? I would have thought they have got to have some sort of
:24:00. > :24:05.scale in order to have a chance to do research, to make a difference.
:24:06. > :24:11.To my experience on cancer charities is they give the money to the bigger
:24:12. > :24:13.charities. They do not try to commission research themselves. They
:24:14. > :24:22.are getting money and they are getting people to donate. They will
:24:23. > :24:28.give to the Jimmy Knapp Cancer fund because they know Jimmy Knapp. I bet
:24:29. > :24:32.you get a lot of people asking for your support because you are very
:24:33. > :24:35.well-known. It is helpful for a you have that support. With an issue
:24:36. > :24:41.like cancer there are so many different charities competing for
:24:42. > :24:46.the same pound. Charity is a very subjective thing. Everyone here has
:24:47. > :24:52.a charity they support, I'm sure, and it will be something personal. I
:24:53. > :24:55.can see both sides. I can see the fact the bigger charities are
:24:56. > :25:02.already established. They know where the money should go to make sure the
:25:03. > :25:09.research is -- is done. On the other hand, the bigger charities CV
:25:10. > :25:15.suffering. They want that money. We don't know where the admin costs are
:25:16. > :25:20.going etc. When I was in Eastenders, I had from every week, at least five
:25:21. > :25:24.or six new charities asking me to be their patron. At first I said yes,
:25:25. > :25:29.of course, then I realised I was patron of about 300 charities. I
:25:30. > :25:30.thought it was ridiculous. I cannot do anything more than put my name to
:25:31. > :25:36.it. As opposed do anything more than put my name to
:25:37. > :25:41.really try to raise money from the ground up. You are more likely to
:25:42. > :25:53.know where the money is going for -- to a local charity. There are
:25:54. > :25:59.websites that encourage people to look carefully at charities, how
:26:00. > :26:00.efficient they are etc. I want to take the long ball view. I think
:26:01. > :26:05.what we have two really look at is take the long ball view. I think
:26:06. > :26:08.the fact that the taking back of the welfare state has meant that many
:26:09. > :26:13.charities, many individuals, have had to step in and do the work the
:26:14. > :26:15.Government used to do. What we should be asking is, why are
:26:16. > :26:19.Government used to do. What we people having to do this kind of
:26:20. > :26:22.thing when we are being taxed by government for jobs they should do
:26:23. > :26:26.in the first place CROWD CHEER The second
:26:27. > :26:28.in the first place CROWD CHEER The consciousness. It deals with the
:26:29. > :26:34.symptoms but it does not get to the having charities set up to help
:26:35. > :26:36.young people do things after school, having charities set up to help
:26:37. > :26:39.it is partly because the state no longer
:26:40. > :26:41.it is partly because the state no services. Do you really believe the
:26:42. > :26:46.it is partly because the state no say that. We
:26:47. > :26:50.it is partly because the state no kind of things the state should be
:26:51. > :26:56.doing instead of having individuals and charities stepping. The
:26:57. > :27:05.government would look after the veterans charities themselves.
:27:06. > :27:05.government would look after the things that I felt very strongly
:27:06. > :27:13.ought properly things that I felt very strongly
:27:14. > :27:14.the Ministry for defence. Lots of charities do things that should be
:27:15. > :27:23.done by the Government. One of the great things Barnardos does is it
:27:24. > :27:29.looks at the root cause of things. They have a school in Woking. They
:27:30. > :27:34.take kids who have been vulnerable, who are vulnerable, and they also
:27:35. > :27:35.about why they have ended up that way. Yes,
:27:36. > :27:41.about why they have ended up that the opportunity to do that. But I
:27:42. > :27:44.think ideally it would be great to have a mass of commissioning body
:27:45. > :27:52.that was just where all the money went and it was distributed equally.
:27:53. > :27:56.That is a really interesting idea. There are a lot of charities often
:27:57. > :28:02.represented at the Cotswolds show. Let's rejoin Andrew Plant. You have
:28:03. > :28:04.got the Shetland pony Grand National team warming up behind me. These
:28:05. > :28:11.guys race later. That would be good to watch. Sebastien here actually
:28:12. > :28:15.helps run this. If I could interrupt you for a second. You are
:28:16. > :28:20.effectively raising money for charity a lot of the time. What is
:28:21. > :28:26.your opinion? We have been raising money for 21 years for great Ormond.
:28:27. > :28:33.This year, over the next three years, we are hoping to raise 55,000
:28:34. > :28:38.to pay for a new suite at the hospital itself. Your opinion on
:28:39. > :28:42.there being too many charities? I think we are getting to a stage
:28:43. > :28:47.where there are too many. Every time you open the paper there is some
:28:48. > :28:51.sort of charity. I'm not saying that we should stop charities or stop
:28:52. > :28:56.encouraging charities, but I think there needs to be more possible
:28:57. > :29:00.regulation and perhaps they should be more vetted. Perhaps the
:29:01. > :29:06.charities commission should drivers license some of these charities and
:29:07. > :29:11.make them more proactive. Thank you. We have that Abigail here. 50% of
:29:12. > :29:16.the revenue from your animal sanctuary ghosted charities. It is
:29:17. > :29:22.really important for small charities. If we didn't have
:29:23. > :29:26.donations from members of the public, we would not be able to
:29:27. > :29:32.survive. I agree we need more accountability. We have a very close
:29:33. > :29:35.strategy with six objectives. We are accountable to all of our members
:29:36. > :29:41.and members of the public, so they know whether money is being spent
:29:42. > :29:47.Thank you for joining us. From the Cotswolds, and the little Grand
:29:48. > :29:50.National, back to you. Max, a good point there. It is really important
:29:51. > :29:53.for the small charities to have that money, but your concern and I have
:29:54. > :29:57.seen you write about this is with the bigger charities, isn't did? The
:29:58. > :30:00.people who are best qualified to judge whether a charity is doing
:30:01. > :30:04.good work are the people who give to it and what I think that people who
:30:05. > :30:10.give to charities ought to look harder than they do. Red Nose day,
:30:11. > :30:14.it is a wonderful idea. It gives people the chance to write their
:30:15. > :30:19.cheques, but who has a clue what happens to the money from Red Nose
:30:20. > :30:24.Day? It represents a classic example of the false consciousness that I've
:30:25. > :30:27.been talking about. We give hundreds of billions of pounds every year to
:30:28. > :30:33.help development projects in the developing world when the issue is
:30:34. > :30:38.global economic injustice. The fact that the trade laws result in a
:30:39. > :30:44.great deal of poverty so for every ?10 we may give, we take back ?300.
:30:45. > :30:50.I made a film about this for Channel 4. On Max's point and we don't have
:30:51. > :30:55.the people behind Red Nose Day to give a right to reply and comment,
:30:56. > :30:59.but charities are meant to be transparent. You can find the
:31:00. > :31:04.details. Some of them have big surpluses? I'm shocked by how
:31:05. > :31:10.untransparent they are. They give statistics, one of them I won't
:31:11. > :31:15.name, one of them gives statistics that 90 pence of every ?1 goes to
:31:16. > :31:18.the people. This is not true because they are including in the 90 pence
:31:19. > :31:23.the administration costs of distribution and so on. I'm not
:31:24. > :31:27.saying, don't, I'm not knocking people who are doing good. I'm just
:31:28. > :31:32.saying that just because they say they want to do good, we shouldn't
:31:33. > :31:37.accept them at their own valuation. We should say what are they
:31:38. > :31:40.achieving? I agree national developments charities are papering
:31:41. > :31:43.over the cracks and there is an inequality between the first and the
:31:44. > :31:54.developing worlds if you want to call them that. Some health
:31:55. > :31:58.charities, why does Great Great Ormond Street have to reply on
:31:59. > :32:02.charity? -- rely on charity? We have the chance to show that part of the
:32:03. > :32:07.package, of course, the State has to bear most of the responsibility, but
:32:08. > :32:13.to give people that opportunity to contribute is terrific? Again, I
:32:14. > :32:18.think we should celebrate people giving their money. Not those at the
:32:19. > :32:23.top who want a hospital wing named after them, but all the people who
:32:24. > :32:28.give small amounts, I celebrate. You talk about false consciousness,
:32:29. > :32:34.you're not going to feed people who are hungry by going to foodbanks.
:32:35. > :32:38.Robert's point was that he has seen on the ground that charities don't
:32:39. > :32:44.work. That the money that goes to charities possibly doesn't get to
:32:45. > :32:50.the people who want it. They do the Band Aid work. If there is hunger,
:32:51. > :32:56.you have to do deal with it, but you have to deal with the causes and
:32:57. > :33:00.that's what concerns me. Charity has been reduced to a psychological
:33:01. > :33:08.feel-good factor. Robert, but that's needed. We don't deal with the
:33:09. > :33:12.concrete sauces. This is why I say charities are sub jective thing and
:33:13. > :33:16.it is part of the healing process. For some families where they have
:33:17. > :33:20.lost someone and they feel they want to do something, that's part of
:33:21. > :33:25.their healing process. It is not harming anyone else, it is helping
:33:26. > :33:28.them. I truly believe that there should be one huge body that gets
:33:29. > :33:33.all this money and gets it to the right people. It is a really
:33:34. > :33:38.interesting point, thank you. Let's leave it on that point. On a great
:33:39. > :33:46.big pot and somebody decides where the money is going to go. Santa
:33:47. > :33:52.Claus has to do it! In a few hours time, the British Grand Prix will
:33:53. > :33:55.roar into action at Silverstone. For a generation or two, the familiar
:33:56. > :34:02.voice of the sport was Murray Walker. Murray retired from
:34:03. > :34:06.commentating over a decade ago. At 91 and with no intention of slowing
:34:07. > :34:13.down, I went to meet him and to talk about his career and his values and
:34:14. > :34:18.to hear the legendary voice. And Damon Hill exits the chicane and
:34:19. > :34:23.wins the Japanese Grand Prix. I've got to stop because I've got a lump
:34:24. > :34:27.in my throat. Murray, it is lovely to see you. Thank you very much for
:34:28. > :34:33.inviting me into your home. It is a pleasure to have you, Sian. Ump the
:34:34. > :34:44.voice of Formula One, do you miss it? I miss it desperately. I did my
:34:45. > :34:49.first Grand Prix commentary in 1949 so I'm if my maths is right, I'm
:34:50. > :34:53.into my 63rd year of broadcasting. Do I miss Formula One? Yes, I miss
:34:54. > :34:59.it desperately, but you can't go on forever. Do you watch it? I watch
:35:00. > :35:05.every second of it! Still? On every channel and I read every word that's
:35:06. > :35:13.written about it. It's in my blood. I started my life as the son of a
:35:14. > :35:18.professional racing motorcyclist who was very successful, Graham Walker,
:35:19. > :35:23.he won the TT in the Isle of Man, I was born in an atmosphere of motor
:35:24. > :35:29.sport and I was either going to love it or loathe it. I adored my father
:35:30. > :35:40.and I wanted to be like him. So once it got into your blood, it never
:35:41. > :35:46.ever leaves you. A good start from Hill. It looks like a good start for
:35:47. > :35:50.everyone. What is it that gets into your blood? Is it the love of
:35:51. > :35:56.adrenalin? I think short of being involved in a war, you probably get
:35:57. > :36:00.more adrenalin from sport than anything else and whilst I'm
:36:01. > :36:03.certainly not knocking other sports, they are all interesting and
:36:04. > :36:08.exciting in their way, to me motorsport is the greatest of all.
:36:09. > :36:15.There is an element of danger in it, of course, which most other sports
:36:16. > :36:18.don't have. And it's that, it's the speed and it's the camaraderie of
:36:19. > :36:28.the people that you're with and working with. Ayrton Senna is ahead
:36:29. > :36:33.of Schumacher and challenging. That element of danger makes it very
:36:34. > :36:36.exciting to watch because you know that there maybe a crash. And you
:36:37. > :36:45.know that people are putting their lives at risk? Sian, they all know,
:36:46. > :36:49.we all knew, that it could happen to you, but, of course, you don't think
:36:50. > :36:53.it will ever happen to you because if you really did think it, you
:36:54. > :36:59.wouldn't be doing it. But they all get into their cars, or on their
:37:00. > :37:05.bikes, with the knowledge that at best they could be hurt and at
:37:06. > :37:10.worst, they could be killed, but you put that to the back of your mind
:37:11. > :37:16.and you get on with it because the lure of going fast and beating the
:37:17. > :37:21.other person is extreme. We've talked about the risks of Formula
:37:22. > :37:26.One. When you think about Michael Schumacher, ironically, he was very,
:37:27. > :37:30.very badly injured away from the track? Well, what
:37:31. > :37:33.very badly injured away from the tragic? Michael Schumacher had
:37:34. > :37:39.spent, I don't know, at least 20 years of his young life risking his
:37:40. > :37:43.life every time he went to work and when he gets in the car, he is going
:37:44. > :37:49.to work, seven times a world champion, much admired, he retires
:37:50. > :37:54.from motor racing, goes skiing for a bit of fun, and that's what happens.
:37:55. > :37:58.But I feel that the moment that you stop people from doing something
:37:59. > :38:03.dangerous, provided they don't endanger the lives of other people,
:38:04. > :38:06.and the moment you stop that, humanitarian is in trouble. --
:38:07. > :38:13.humanity is in trouble, I think. I think you have a very interesting
:38:14. > :38:16.view on risk and mortality if I can say that because I suppose of your
:38:17. > :38:20.father and because he was a risk taker and because you have seen so
:38:21. > :38:26.many people that you know, not just in the war, but also in the
:38:27. > :38:30.profession you chose to go into, have serious injuries and crashes.
:38:31. > :38:36.Has that affected, do you think, the way you are as an individual and how
:38:37. > :38:42.you view life? When you're doing the job I did, you get friendly with
:38:43. > :38:49.drivers, but you don't get too friendly with drivers and I suspect
:38:50. > :38:54.it's some sort of subconscious shield to protect yourself in the
:38:55. > :39:01.possible event that something terminal is going to happen to them.
:39:02. > :39:07.Strange, but true. This protective shield that you have, did you use it
:39:08. > :39:13.when you were diagnosed with cancer yourself? It is very strange
:39:14. > :39:19.actually because I was in hospital because I had fallen and broken my
:39:20. > :39:23.pelvis and when I was checked out of the hospital, they said we want you
:39:24. > :39:34.to go to the to the haematology department. I thought haematology,
:39:35. > :39:37.that's blood. So I trickled along to the haematology department and a
:39:38. > :39:43.charming woman specialist starts talking to me about the fact that
:39:44. > :39:49.cancer is not as bad as it used to be because we can do all sorts
:39:50. > :39:54.things. I thought, "What is she going about cancer for?" I have
:39:55. > :40:08.fallen down and broken my pelvis and then she told me I had non Hodgkin's
:40:09. > :40:16.which is a form of blood cancer. When I lined up to have my
:40:17. > :40:23.chemotherapy, they said, "Your blood has improved so much, you don't need
:40:24. > :40:32.the chemotherapy and we are going to give you regulars checks and see you
:40:33. > :40:35.go." My blood condition is A1 and no problem, and they say, with luck you
:40:36. > :40:41.can go on for the rest of your life like that. Do you have a fatalistic
:40:42. > :40:48.attitude when it comes to life and death? Yes. Where we came from and
:40:49. > :40:54.where we're going to, I don't know and nobody knows actually. Do they?
:40:55. > :41:01.I don't know anybody that's been there and can tell us what it was
:41:02. > :41:06.like. I think those who have a faith have perhaps more of a certainty
:41:07. > :41:11.about where they might be going. Do you have a faith? No, I don't.
:41:12. > :41:15.People who have a faith have a more certainty about where they think
:41:16. > :41:21.they might be going. They don't know. I'm not knocking them. I'm not
:41:22. > :41:28.knocking people of faith. But they don't know anymore than I do. My
:41:29. > :41:36.parents weren't religious and I have never actually felt the need to go
:41:37. > :41:41.to church and worship like other people do. I have always tried to
:41:42. > :41:50.live my life by doing as I would be done by. And I don't think it is
:41:51. > :41:55.necessary to go to church in order to lead a good life. Is there any
:41:56. > :42:07.time to relax in Murray Walker's world? What do you do to relax? This
:42:08. > :42:12.is sad actually. I don't know what I do to relax. Tell me one thing you
:42:13. > :42:21.could do. Have you passed your driving test yet? I have to look a
:42:22. > :42:29.bit shifty now because I've never actually taken a driving test! When
:42:30. > :42:35.I was in the Army, there was a rule which said when you come out of the
:42:36. > :42:46.Army, if you can get a certificate, of driving competence from your
:42:47. > :42:54.technical aJewedant, aJewed ajudant. You don't have to take a driving
:42:55. > :42:59.test. I was the technical Ajudant. Murray Walker can't drive. What
:43:00. > :43:04.correlation is there between having a driving licence and being able to
:43:05. > :43:08.drive? I refute your outrageous statement! You mean is not legally
:43:09. > :43:15.entitled to drive. Would you take your driving test now? I see no need
:43:16. > :43:21.to take a driving test! I like, all men, regard myself as a proficient
:43:22. > :43:26.driver. Murray, it has been lovely talking to you. Thank you very much.
:43:27. > :43:33.Thank you. Oh dear, Murray Walker, 91, a living legend. You can catch
:43:34. > :43:38.the British Grand Prix from midday. It is not to be missed! Murray won't
:43:39. > :43:43.be missing. Max, I want to pick up on something that Murray said about
:43:44. > :43:49.the adrenalin in sport. You have written many on the books. He said
:43:50. > :43:54.you get more adrenalin from sport than anything else? That's true. A
:43:55. > :43:59.lot of people got the adrenalin from the Second World War. I was brought
:44:00. > :44:05.up in a family, that my father and the men of my family were privileged
:44:06. > :44:17.to enjoy the war. Enjoy the war? They brought me up to believe it was
:44:18. > :44:22.an romp that I missed. A Norwegian wrote in his memoirs in 1947, he
:44:23. > :44:32.said although wars bring adventures that stir the heart, the true nature
:44:33. > :44:36.of war is composed among tragedies and sacrifices and not redeemed by
:44:37. > :44:39.glory and I spent the rest of my life learning that and trying to
:44:40. > :44:51.convey in my books. Thank you very much more that Max, thank you. The
:44:52. > :45:01.vote is closing now. Please do not text us. We will bring you the
:45:02. > :45:05.result at the end of the programme. Do you school assembly? It has a bit
:45:06. > :45:09.over the years since those hymns and prayers and predictable shuffling
:45:10. > :45:16.and giggling. Now the religious part could be banned altogether. There is
:45:17. > :45:19.a call for the abolition of the 70-year-old rule that requires
:45:20. > :45:30.school to hold a Christian assembly every year, as population and faiths
:45:31. > :45:35.get more diverse. -- populations. The rules set out in the 1944
:45:36. > :45:39.education act require all state schools to provide broadly Christian
:45:40. > :45:44.worship every day. However, the National Governers' Association,
:45:45. > :45:49.representing more than 300,000 school governors across England,
:45:50. > :45:55.says if the act of worship is not in your life, it is meaningless. It is
:45:56. > :45:59.schools -- mass schools are places of education, not worship.
:46:00. > :46:03.schools -- mass schools are places have the right to pull children out
:46:04. > :46:08.of religious assemblies. But two thirds of parents surveyed says --
:46:09. > :46:11.said there children did not take part in
:46:12. > :46:16.anyway. Kevin, I
:46:17. > :46:18.anyway. with the governors. Our broadly
:46:19. > :46:21.Christian assemblies in schools meaningless? I think they are
:46:22. > :46:27.ridiculous. They should have gone out with the Ark. Looking at my own
:46:28. > :46:30.kids going through schools, most schools do not have them. It is in
:46:31. > :46:34.the law. Schools are about education. They are not about
:46:35. > :46:40.religion. Yes, teach religion, but do not preach. A quarter of us have
:46:41. > :46:45.no religion. Two in five have no religion or another religion which
:46:46. > :46:47.is not Christian. I think it is absolutely ridiculous in modern
:46:48. > :46:53.Britain to be trying to push this on schools. More than 33 million people
:46:54. > :47:04.in this country are Christian. Do we need to hear that religion as it is
:47:05. > :47:09.the majority? I am very nostalgic about this. I grew up in the Bombay
:47:10. > :47:14.Scottish orphanage high school in Bombay. It was a Christian school.
:47:15. > :47:18.We had to learn the hymns and we have assembly every morning. And I
:47:19. > :47:22.loved it. The reason I loved it is because it brought us together. We
:47:23. > :47:28.talked about community, we talked about all the things, the little
:47:29. > :47:31.achievements of the children had. If somebody had done really well, they
:47:32. > :47:37.were given an award. It was all very special. My kids right now are going
:47:38. > :47:41.through this and they love it. So for me, I personally wouldn't change
:47:42. > :47:46.anything. You can have the community bit and give out prizes. You don't
:47:47. > :47:54.have to thrust one version of God down the throats of kids. Him still
:47:55. > :48:01.sing about things that actually mean the same across a lot of religions.
:48:02. > :48:06.I agree totally with Nina. I think we would lose something. David
:48:07. > :48:09.Cameron is much mocked when he says we live in a Christian country. Of
:48:10. > :48:16.course we are not in a religious sense. But we have a Christian
:48:17. > :48:21.culture. Something I'm hugely grateful for it is all those years
:48:22. > :48:24.at boarding school when I could sing hymns and say prayers. Culturally it
:48:25. > :48:34.is very important. If you teach people to believe nothing, they end
:48:35. > :48:37.up believing anything. Max, there is a difference between teaching and
:48:38. > :48:44.preaching. You can teach religion within philosophy and ethics. That
:48:45. > :48:49.is very different to having worship every day. I think it is quite
:48:50. > :48:55.dangerous when we start compartmentalising education. We're
:48:56. > :49:01.much more holistic manner. Therefore,
:49:02. > :49:02.much more holistic manner. one's life, whether that is
:49:03. > :49:08.religious or nonreligious, or some sense of
:49:09. > :49:11.religious or nonreligious, or some assembly will be inclusive. It will
:49:12. > :49:15.have something for people of faith and people of no faith. How can we
:49:16. > :49:20.make the Assembly an important point of moral reflection? Whether you are
:49:21. > :49:27.the hip-hop artist or a highly trained psychologist, people like
:49:28. > :49:33.the ability to reflect. You are a theologian. Given the multi-faith
:49:34. > :49:37.world we live in, given the fact there is a lack of religious
:49:38. > :49:45.literacy, it should be inclusive. It should empower people of faith and
:49:46. > :49:52.people of no faith. A touch of the Prince Charles's! Duncan Howarth
:49:53. > :49:57.joins us from the National Governers' Association. Why do you
:49:58. > :50:03.think Christian worship in schools is meaningless? What is meaningless
:50:04. > :50:05.updated? Can I just say the National Governers' Association have come up
:50:06. > :50:10.with this proposal for a change and we have to be clear about what we
:50:11. > :50:15.are proposing. There are phoning many types of schools now. -- there
:50:16. > :50:22.are very many types of schools. We can broadly defined them as a school
:50:23. > :50:26.with a faith designation or not. What we are saying very clearly is
:50:27. > :50:33.that we are -- where is school has a faith designation, we would still
:50:34. > :50:38.expect those schools to have a daily act of collective worship. But we
:50:39. > :50:46.are now saying that where the school does not have faith designation -- a
:50:47. > :50:51.faith mesic -- designation, that it makes sense not to have a daily act
:50:52. > :50:55.of collective worship. The reasons for that are twofold. One, the
:50:56. > :51:00.reality of the situation is that many schools do not actually meet
:51:01. > :51:10.the legal requirements. And secondly, as has already been said,
:51:11. > :51:16.we believe school for education and not a place for worship in a school
:51:17. > :51:21.of non-faith designation. That does not mean you can have assemblies. In
:51:22. > :51:24.fact, most schools would still have assemblies and they would continue
:51:25. > :51:35.to talk in those assemblies about faith and belief. A Church of
:51:36. > :51:37.England spokesman said that at least a time of collective worship is a
:51:38. > :51:43.time for children to reflect and pause. It is not about education. It
:51:44. > :51:47.is a space in the day where they can learn about other things. They can
:51:48. > :51:50.learn about a moral code. They can learn about how to behave well
:51:51. > :51:59.towards one another. Is that still not key? It is absolutely key. The
:52:00. > :52:04.fact is that there is a need, and a legal requirement, for a religious
:52:05. > :52:08.education curriculum. That will cover all of those things that you
:52:09. > :52:12.have just been talking about. A broad, balanced knowledge of all
:52:13. > :52:20.faiths and the moral and cultural things that are going on. We know,
:52:21. > :52:23.for instance, that following the situations that have arisen in some
:52:24. > :52:29.Birmingham schools, probably there will be some changes to strengthen
:52:30. > :52:34.that area. But that has always been in schools and continues to be in
:52:35. > :52:43.schools now. Not the same as collective worship. This is where we
:52:44. > :52:47.have got into a tangle. There has never been any evidence of Christian
:52:48. > :52:56.extremism in British schools. We now have a formidable problem with
:52:57. > :53:00.Moslem extremism. -- Moslem. There are schools that will not teach
:53:01. > :53:05.Darwin and evolution. There are schools where parents are putting a
:53:06. > :53:15.very Christian agenda and heads are resisting it because they feel if
:53:16. > :53:19.they allow extremism... In Birmingham, they were pushy parents.
:53:20. > :53:25.They happened to be Moslem parents. They happen to be Christian parents.
:53:26. > :53:29.I don't think we will lose anything important from the loss of Christian
:53:30. > :53:35.religion but we will lose a lot if we lose Christian culture. That is
:53:36. > :53:38.something very valuable. Do you agree we would lose something if we
:53:39. > :53:42.tried to dissipate our Christian culture and don't pay attention to
:53:43. > :53:48.it? We will lose something if we don't pay attention to religion. It
:53:49. > :53:53.is important to value all religious and non-religious experience. The
:53:54. > :53:56.day we stopped taking morality and transcendence seriously, we're in
:53:57. > :54:01.trouble. Christianity is one of the major global religions. Immature
:54:02. > :54:08.culture like our own should be at a point where we should celebrate. All
:54:09. > :54:12.of them. What about the time for reflection? You reflect on something
:54:13. > :54:17.that does not have any faith attached to it? Murray Walker said
:54:18. > :54:26.he did not go to church. He still got character, he has a strong moral
:54:27. > :54:30.code. May the concentration should be more on the word assembly rather
:54:31. > :54:35.than Christian. What I like about the fact it is a question assembly
:54:36. > :54:40.is that we have similar morals. It is all about being positive and
:54:41. > :54:48.being good people. That is what most religions should be based on. The
:54:49. > :54:58.fight for a good against evil. It is but it is all about teaching, not
:54:59. > :55:02.worship. You can reflect on moral and ethical issues. But you do not
:55:03. > :55:08.need to be pushing one form of Christianity. I stick with what I
:55:09. > :55:13.said. We would lose something by the loss of Christian culture. I take
:55:14. > :55:20.Kevin's point. You don't have to be very religious to be a good person.
:55:21. > :55:25.The idea that we're becoming a of non-believers in anything, I am
:55:26. > :55:28.rather frightened about. I think it is a mistake to think worship is
:55:29. > :55:33.somewhat alien to our everyday lives. There are sociologist to say
:55:34. > :55:39.that football is a form of collective worship for men. The same
:55:40. > :55:42.characteristics you find on a Sunday morning service you will find that a
:55:43. > :55:46.football match. Worship is part of our existence. Why not teach
:55:47. > :55:52.children within the context of education that there are varieties
:55:53. > :55:57.of worship available to them? It can be educated but it is also educative
:55:58. > :56:01.on a personal behavioural level. What does it transcend and see the
:56:02. > :56:12.world and more global terms than one may be taught by watching
:56:13. > :56:15.television? The law is saying have a broadly Christian Dailly worship. We
:56:16. > :56:19.should recognise that our culture has moved on. It is much more
:56:20. > :56:25.inclusive. The focal point for a religious assembly that engages with
:56:26. > :56:31.religion and people of faith and not of faith is important. I would say
:56:32. > :56:36.tweak the law so it becomes more inclusive and celebrates rather than
:56:37. > :56:44.marginalises. Cami and that? That feels like a consensus. What I find
:56:45. > :56:48.valuable when I do go to church is to find a tiny window of time to
:56:49. > :56:52.think about something other than my own self-interest. That goes for all
:56:53. > :56:57.of us. Just to bring you up-to-date with our vote should animal
:56:58. > :57:03.experiments be banned here? Here is what you told us. 66% of those of
:57:04. > :57:16.you who voted said yes, they should be banned. 34% said no. 66%. Let's
:57:17. > :57:22.go to find out what they think that the Cotswolds show. That is pretty
:57:23. > :57:29.high. Let's get reaction from clear. -- Clare. Presumably the sympathy
:57:30. > :57:34.with the view that they should be banned? Absolutely, I agree. It is a
:57:35. > :57:40.shame it is not higher but we can work on it. Judy, very quickly. You
:57:41. > :57:45.are a farmer. What do you think of the results? I don't know a lot
:57:46. > :57:49.about animal testing. I certainly respect people's opinions. Maybe it
:57:50. > :57:56.is something I should look into deeper. Thank you for joining us.
:57:57. > :58:01.From the Cotswolds show, back to you. That is back to -- that is it.
:58:02. > :58:10.Thanks to all my guests in the studio. And to those who joined us
:58:11. > :58:50.further afield. We are back at the same time next Sunday. Join me then.
:58:51. > :58:54.This competition is hotting up to be the best Celebrity MasterChef ever!
:58:55. > :59:05.They are contestants hungry for the MasterChef title.
:59:06. > :59:08.Celebrity MasterChef, the semifinals...