:00:07. > :00:18.Welcome. I am Sean Williams with a show that is -- that deals with the
:00:19. > :00:21.week was my big stories. As a former Archbishop of Canterbury says he is
:00:22. > :00:27.in favour of assisted dying, we ask you to vote on what you think and we
:00:28. > :00:31.talk to a woman who accompanied her brother on his last journey.
:00:32. > :00:35.It was an honour to help him to end his life as he wanted.
:00:36. > :00:42.Ballroom dancing is in a spin over same-sex couples and the icing on
:00:43. > :00:44.the cake has cooked up a row, has the gay rights movement achieved
:00:45. > :00:49.equality? The World Cup final between
:00:50. > :00:55.Argentina and Germany today may cause split loyalties in the Vatican
:00:56. > :01:01.but is sport now the new religion? And actress Liz Carr talks about her
:01:02. > :01:05.life, and Silent Witness. It is a beautiful day today.
:01:06. > :01:31.Very neat. -- very beat. All that coming up and we shall be
:01:32. > :01:36.in heaven and hell, being played out in a damp York this morning. Good
:01:37. > :01:40.morning, Olivia. Good morning, it is normally
:01:41. > :01:46.beautiful and York Minster but the heavens have opened. -- in York
:01:47. > :01:50.Minster. But the plays will be getting underway this morning, an
:01:51. > :01:54.ancient medieval tradition that will see the battle between good and evil
:01:55. > :01:58.played out across the city. Thank you, I have never seen an
:01:59. > :02:04.angel with them on Bradley! Our guests are getting ready. --
:02:05. > :02:09.with an umbrella. Joining us is journalist Andrew
:02:10. > :02:14.Pierce who was once described as the six most powerful gay man in British
:02:15. > :02:24.politics. Writer Bea Campbell is a feminist.
:02:25. > :02:30.Rabbi Jonathan is here, a season ticket holder at Reading for all
:02:31. > :02:35.club -- football club who remain out of the Premier League.
:02:36. > :02:39.And the writer Rosie who has run marathons all over the world.
:02:40. > :03:00.We would like to know what you think.
:03:01. > :03:08.First, assisted dying, and that controversial intervention by former
:03:09. > :03:12.Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey. He says the law should change to
:03:13. > :03:18.allow terminally ill people with less than six months to live to be
:03:19. > :03:23.helped to end their lives, a U-turn on his previous position. Justin
:03:24. > :03:27.Welby, the present Archbishop, has described the bill is mistaken and
:03:28. > :03:30.dangerous. The Church of England has called for a Royal Commission and
:03:31. > :03:35.says any proposed legislation should be put on ice.
:03:36. > :03:38.Lord Carey says he has dropped his opposition to be assisted dying Bill
:03:39. > :03:45.in the face of the reality of needless suffering he says it was
:03:46. > :03:48.the case of Tony Nicklinson who had locked in syndrome and died after
:03:49. > :03:52.being refused the legal right to assistance to end his life which has
:03:53. > :03:57.the deepest influence on his decision. The bill tabled by Lord
:03:58. > :04:00.Falconer will be debated in the House of Lords next week and it
:04:01. > :04:04.would make it legal for adults in England and Wales to be given
:04:05. > :04:10.assistance to end their lives. It would apply to those with less than
:04:11. > :04:14.six months to live. Two doctors would have to independently confirm
:04:15. > :04:18.the patient was terminally ill and had reached their own informed
:04:19. > :04:24.decision to die. The current Archbishop of Canterbury says the
:04:25. > :04:28.argument in favour of the bill is deeply flawed. And it could make
:04:29. > :04:32.vulnerable terminally ill people feel they ought to stop being a
:04:33. > :04:35.burden on others. There has been another significant
:04:36. > :04:37.intervention this morning. Desmond Tutu, the former Archbishop,
:04:38. > :04:44.intervention this morning. Desmond come out in favour of assisted
:04:45. > :04:45.dying. He says, I have been fortunate
:04:46. > :04:52.dying. He says, I have been for the dignity of the living, now I
:04:53. > :04:55.wish to apply to apply my mind to the dignity of the dying. I revere
:04:56. > :05:03.the sanctity of life but not at any cost. The reaction now of two people
:05:04. > :05:09.who know Lord Carey. Jonathan is here. And joining us from Tunbridge
:05:10. > :05:18.Wells is a former Bishop of Rochester. Good morning. Jonathan,
:05:19. > :05:23.it you worked with Lord Carey when he was redrafting his position, why
:05:24. > :05:30.did he change his mind? -- you worked. It was not one moment but an
:05:31. > :05:35.accumulation of thinking the old position was no longer appropriate.
:05:36. > :05:42.There are people who are suffering and it is not religious to let them
:05:43. > :05:49.carry on in pain. Intervention is two fault, it is no longer a debate
:05:50. > :05:55.between the religious and secular camp -- twofold. It is a debate with
:05:56. > :05:59.them the religious community. -- within. And there are a lot of
:06:00. > :06:03.religious people across all faiths who believe you can have a deep
:06:04. > :06:07.faith but believe people dying in agony you wish to terminate their
:06:08. > :06:11.lives earlier rather than carry on suffering should have the right to
:06:12. > :06:16.do so if they so wish. You say there is a debate within
:06:17. > :06:22.religion. Bishop Michael, you also know Lord Carey well, is he right?
:06:23. > :06:28.George is very warm-hearted and I can see why he has had this sympathy
:06:29. > :06:33.for Tony Nicklinson in his predicament. But what I cannot
:06:34. > :06:39.understand is how this in anyway advances his argument in favour of
:06:40. > :06:45.Lord Falconer's Bill because that is about terminally ill able whereas
:06:46. > :06:51.Tony Nicklinson was not -- people. This will in fact widen the
:06:52. > :06:57.provision, the very thing Lord Carey fears, to include all sorts of
:06:58. > :07:01.people like the disabled, the depressed and even those tired of
:07:02. > :07:07.life. The other thing about this will George wants to support is how
:07:08. > :07:18.we can no exactly when somebody is going to die. -- how can we know.
:07:19. > :07:22.There is remission, reversal, reversal -- waiting around for other
:07:23. > :07:27.tips. People who have been given six months to live sometimes live for
:07:28. > :07:32.years after. I cannot see how you could predict somebody has only six
:07:33. > :07:38.months to live, I would say miracles as well, by the way. We cannot just
:07:39. > :07:46.rely on George's experience, however much we may be moved by it. We must
:07:47. > :07:50.look at the value of the human person, Jews and Christians would
:07:51. > :07:57.say, made in the image off. Dash-macro one. -- the image of
:07:58. > :08:03.God. It is almost possible to relieve all pain the -- these days,
:08:04. > :08:09.and the prohibition of killing does not mean keeping people alive, they
:08:10. > :08:14.can be refused treatment, all those things.
:08:15. > :08:18.Thank you very much. We will be debating this later in the
:08:19. > :08:23.programme. We will hear from both of you. It is a question for the online
:08:24. > :08:46.vote. Should assisted dying be made legal?
:08:47. > :08:53.Results will be announced before the end of the programme.
:08:54. > :09:01.It is not often the Prime Minister is drawn into an argument about
:09:02. > :09:04.baking. This week, he was, after a Christian bakery in Northern Ireland
:09:05. > :09:10.refused to make a cake in support of gay marriage. The customer complains
:09:11. > :09:14.to the equality commission which is investigating if he was
:09:15. > :09:18.discriminated against waste on his sexual orientation. It comes after
:09:19. > :09:23.the British dance Council revealed proposals to have mixed sex only
:09:24. > :09:28.competitions. So has the battle for gay rights been one and does free
:09:29. > :09:33.speech extends to turning away those who are gay?
:09:34. > :09:39.John Church and Alex have danced together four years competitively,
:09:40. > :09:42.and news they may not be able to compete against mixed sex couples
:09:43. > :09:47.concerns them. Many of these people would not like
:09:48. > :09:53.change of a footstep in a particular dance let alone changing the gender
:09:54. > :09:57.of the person you are dancing with. The British dance Council will
:09:58. > :10:02.debate finding -- defining a partnership is one man and one lady
:10:03. > :10:08.unless otherwise stated, allowing organisers to host mixed sex only
:10:09. > :10:13.competitions if they want. Same-sex dance couples can currently enter
:10:14. > :10:20.both times categories. We have been pleasantly surprised at
:10:21. > :10:27.competitions, fellow competitors are convivial and welcoming. There has
:10:28. > :10:32.been some negativity but we fix skin is and we can take that.
:10:33. > :10:36.In June, thousands lined the streets of London for gay pride, calling for
:10:37. > :10:41.an end to discrimination. -- thick skin. The charge has been levelled
:10:42. > :10:45.at a Belfast bakery this week which refused to make a cake supporting
:10:46. > :10:50.gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. I would like this
:10:51. > :10:56.to be that any Christians from any business can be allowed to follow
:10:57. > :11:00.their Christian beliefs and principles in the day-to-day running
:11:01. > :11:01.of their business and they are allowed to make decisions based on
:11:02. > :11:09.that. Last year, the soup green court
:11:10. > :11:12.dismissed an appeal by bed and breakfast owners that they acted
:11:13. > :11:17.within the law after they refused a ring to a gay couple -- the soup
:11:18. > :11:23.Dreamcoat. The couple said they would not let a couple stay who were
:11:24. > :11:29.not married based on their beliefs. -- the soup green court. So are the
:11:30. > :11:35.relates of some being sidelined? For Alex and John, any changes will not
:11:36. > :11:41.stop them pursuing their hobby. -- the rights. We will continue
:11:42. > :11:46.whatever happens but if the rule does happen, dancing will change in
:11:47. > :11:51.its form and content and that would be a great shame.
:11:52. > :11:56.The British dance Council says it stands for equality in all areas of
:11:57. > :12:00.society. It says, that includes sexuality, it is levelling the
:12:01. > :12:05.playing field across all competitions. Andrew Pierce, where
:12:06. > :12:11.do you stand? Is it right for the bakery to turn away gay customers?
:12:12. > :12:15.They are not turning them away because they are gay but because the
:12:16. > :12:20.slogan they wanted they suspected would be used in a political
:12:21. > :12:28.campaign and they did not support gay marriage. Northern Ireland has
:12:29. > :12:32.not legalised gay marriage and it is not equal marriage anyway, it is the
:12:33. > :12:38.only equality legislation I know which says that you cannot get
:12:39. > :12:42.married in a Church. So people are trying to do their job and the force
:12:43. > :12:44.of the law is being brought in about a cake, I cannot believe this is
:12:45. > :12:58.happening. When I marched for gay a cake, I cannot believe this is
:12:59. > :12:59.attack people trying to get on with their lives -- section. They are not
:13:00. > :13:05.saying they people could not cross that threshold, that would be
:13:06. > :13:08.unacceptable. They are just saying they will not be used in a political
:13:09. > :13:13.campaign and what is wrong with that? They are not saying no go --
:13:14. > :13:18.bogey customers, they just object to the runcible of gay marriage -- no
:13:19. > :13:26.gay customers. The great thing about bigotry that
:13:27. > :13:31.is resisting in this case one of the great cultural revolutions of our
:13:32. > :13:37.time, our lives are being transformed by this movement, it has
:13:38. > :13:42.to find an alibi or an excuse. So what happens is that it is not the
:13:43. > :13:48.gay customer at the gate cake. -- the gay cake. It is a melting
:13:49. > :13:56.something Christians do not believe in. So if you are in the business of
:13:57. > :13:59.selling goods and services, you are in the business of confronting the
:14:00. > :14:07.world as it is and I am sorry but we are talking about a location that is
:14:08. > :14:13.the most patriarchal, sectarian and sexist and this controversy, it may
:14:14. > :14:25.seem silly, but it would help them sort themselves out.
:14:26. > :14:29.changed, some of its attitudes haven't caught up? A lot of people
:14:30. > :14:32.feel a disconnect between intellect and emotion. Intellectually, most
:14:33. > :14:36.people think it is right that gay people should be treated equally, I
:14:37. > :14:41.certainly endorse it through a religious perspective. Gay people
:14:42. > :14:47.are born gay and therefore, from a religious perspective, God created
:14:48. > :14:51.people gay. That is not all Christians believe? I know, but
:14:52. > :14:55.there we go. You just dismissed their views? A lot of religious
:14:56. > :14:59.people have come round, just like we used to have slavery in the Bible,
:15:00. > :15:06.we didn't have women's rights, we have moved on. Morality is never
:15:07. > :15:09.static. Although we agree, intellectually, emotionally, not
:15:10. > :15:13.everybody has quite caught up with it. There is a disconnect. I'm sure
:15:14. > :15:16.we are going to get there, although I have no doubt that once we are in
:15:17. > :15:24.the public domain, baking cakes for sale, all competitive dancing, there
:15:25. > :15:29.has to be a quality. Complete equality? I salute the gay movement
:15:30. > :15:33.and I think women can learn a lot from it. Complete equality
:15:34. > :15:37.everywhere, and I agree completely, if you are a commercial enterprise,
:15:38. > :15:41.selling cakes, you have to sell cakes. Your morality does not come
:15:42. > :15:46.into it, unless you are asking for a cake with something on it that is
:15:47. > :15:49.illegal, like, please murder my mother. Which is obviously madness.
:15:50. > :15:53.illegal, like, please murder my Women, however, allow all sorts of
:15:54. > :15:58.things. There are clubs where I cannot be a member because I am
:15:59. > :16:02.female. You think that gay rights have regressed further? I think
:16:03. > :16:08.women's liberation, women's equality, should take a lesson from
:16:09. > :16:12.the gay movement and start knocking out things like mad restrictions on
:16:13. > :16:16.women in golf clubs or bars, which is deeply offensive and wrong. What
:16:17. > :16:21.about this issue with the dancing? Who would have thought that
:16:22. > :16:25.homophobia would be level that ballroom dancing? Is anybody really
:16:26. > :16:29.suggesting the world of ballroom dancing is homophobic? It is the
:16:30. > :16:35.world of sequins, and that is just the boys! There is Bruno on the
:16:36. > :16:40.Strictly judging panel. I'm a fan of Christopher Biggins, big,
:16:41. > :16:44.larger-than-life, very gay. If he goes on Strictly Come Dancing, which
:16:45. > :16:48.he might, is he going to have to dance with a man? I pity the man!
:16:49. > :16:51.You'll have to throw him around and he'll have a bad back. The fact is,
:16:52. > :16:59.physically it gives huge advantage to two men. Is not just boys and how
:17:00. > :17:04.they hold themselves? The man that through Anne Widdecombe around the
:17:05. > :17:10.stage, it was about a bit of strength, trust me. The thing that
:17:11. > :17:17.is hilarious, it's another of these cases were a bit of Daft, reckless,
:17:18. > :17:23.and thought out bigotry reveal something. They are saying one man,
:17:24. > :17:26.and one lady... OK, what happens if you have two ladies dancing
:17:27. > :17:34.together? Is the strength argument remotely relative? I think lovingly
:17:35. > :17:38.of my late friend may and her great friend Alice, who used to go dancing
:17:39. > :17:42.together. They were widows, as it happened. But who wants to know?
:17:43. > :17:46.Would they be banned? I think you are being a bit precious. It's not
:17:47. > :17:56.really about sexuality, it's about sex -- strength and stamina. There
:17:57. > :17:59.are same-sex and mixed sex competitions. If you can have
:18:00. > :18:05.same-sex only competitions, you should be allowed to have mixed sex
:18:06. > :18:09.only as well. As gays, we think we have to do have all the laws in our
:18:10. > :18:13.direction. If we are only having same-sex competitions, why can't you
:18:14. > :18:19.have just male and female? It treats the law the same. You have same-sex
:18:20. > :18:29.competitions because gays have been excluded from... Not from ballroom
:18:30. > :18:35.dancing! I want to go to Belfast and bring in David Smith from the
:18:36. > :18:41.evangelical Alliance. Do you think that Christians have the right to be
:18:42. > :18:45.offensive? Sorry, I didn't hear the question. Do you think Christians
:18:46. > :18:52.have the right to be offensive. OK, sorry. If we look at this case, the
:18:53. > :18:57.principle of freedom of conscience, I think that this case could have
:18:58. > :19:03.been triggered by any number of religious or political
:19:04. > :19:10.circumstances. In this instance, about gay marriage, I think there is
:19:11. > :19:16.a perception among Christians that the public square is being policed
:19:17. > :19:21.in terms of guarding the new social orthodoxy. Even in Northern Ireland,
:19:22. > :19:25.where marriage is still legally defined as between a man and a
:19:26. > :19:28.woman. In this circumstance, there is no
:19:29. > :19:31.woman. In this circumstance, there offence being intended by
:19:32. > :19:37.Christians, by refusing to put a message on their cake. David, thank
:19:38. > :19:40.you very much. I think the real division is between social and
:19:41. > :19:45.competitive. Social dancing in a hotel, it should be open to
:19:46. > :19:48.everybody, all sorts of permutations. If it is competitive,
:19:49. > :19:52.I think it is fair enough for the sport to set its own rules. You are
:19:53. > :19:56.talking about prizes, titles and awards. That is why we have separate
:19:57. > :20:03.men and women for tennis, hockey and football. I think that is a crucial
:20:04. > :20:07.distension. A lesbian couple presumably do not command, as if it
:20:08. > :20:14.were relevant, the strength or whatever that two men do. It could
:20:15. > :20:20.go on, thank you, we have to leave that one. We have other issues to
:20:21. > :20:24.debate. Just to remind you, our vote is still open and our question this
:20:25. > :20:25.morning is about assisted dying. We asking if assisted dying should be
:20:26. > :20:41.made legal. You can vote only once. You can also vote online on the
:20:42. > :20:53.website. Results will be announced at the end
:20:54. > :21:00.of the show. We have about 20 minutes or 30 minutes until it
:21:01. > :21:10.closes. Still to come: Mystery with history. We celebrate a religious
:21:11. > :21:16.tradition in the streets of York. Wind and water is Wayne...
:21:17. > :21:22.Before that, we are going to chat to Liz Carr, an active campaigner for
:21:23. > :21:28.disability rights and comedian. She also stars in one Briton's most
:21:29. > :21:34.popular programmes, Silent Witness. . Lovely to you. She plays Clarissa,
:21:35. > :21:40.who is very smart and with a sharp sense of humour.
:21:41. > :21:56.I'm trying to find the lab. I'm sorry, am I not enunciated in? Who
:21:57. > :22:02.are you? Clarissa Mallory. That means nothing. Perhaps it means
:22:03. > :22:08.something to the person in charge? I am in charge. Do you have an
:22:09. > :22:14.appointment? Jack always talks about you. He's a shocking judge of
:22:15. > :22:22.character. How do you know jack option? I work with him. What do you
:22:23. > :22:28.do? I make him look clever. Sorry, mate. Did I forget to mention
:22:29. > :22:35.Clarissa? I don't always succeed... You have a nice line of sarcasm! In
:22:36. > :22:39.real life, as well! Do you bring some of you to the character? When
:22:40. > :22:43.they said they wanted someone that was a bit of a technical nerd,
:22:44. > :22:48.somebody that was sarcastic, I thought it wasn't going to be a
:22:49. > :22:52.great stretch. I thought it was great casting, in a way. What did
:22:53. > :22:57.you think when you were approached and did you have any say in the
:22:58. > :23:02.character? It was quite amazing, I turned 40 when I was auditioning for
:23:03. > :23:07.it. Reaching my age, as a disabled person, there are not that many
:23:08. > :23:12.disabled people in drama. But there are more and more. Why is that? I
:23:13. > :23:16.think the tide is changing. Sometimes, we don't think of
:23:17. > :23:19.disabled people in roles. It happened with Clarissa, actually. It
:23:20. > :23:23.was written for a non-disabled actress and they went, you know
:23:24. > :23:27.what, why can't a disabled actress play that? And then there was a bit
:23:28. > :23:30.of panic, where would we find someone? And there are actually a
:23:31. > :23:39.lot of disabled performers out there. It was a bit like finding
:23:40. > :23:42.Cinderella, but instead of the shoe it was a wheelchair and I happened
:23:43. > :23:45.to fit it. It was a great audition process. It was a surprise to me. I
:23:46. > :23:49.think possibly why I got it is because when I went for the audition
:23:50. > :23:53.I thought, I'll never get it, so I was quite confident and relaxed. I
:23:54. > :23:58.think that was the way to play it. The character is like that. What is
:23:59. > :24:03.nice is that you don't play a disabled character, you play a
:24:04. > :24:12.person, as any other person is, and that, seems to me, marks a bit of a
:24:13. > :24:16.sea change in the way... Deals with disability? The writer said, if we
:24:17. > :24:22.don't have a story about disability, don't worry. Just your presence in
:24:23. > :24:26.the show actually speaks volumes. It's very clear, I am a disabled
:24:27. > :24:30.person. Every time I wheeled into a scene, you have changed the dynamics
:24:31. > :24:35.lightly. You don't need to bang on about, how is all wheelchair today?
:24:36. > :24:42.Right, that is really interesting. We go straight for the drama. The
:24:43. > :24:45.comedy, hopefully. As a comedian, you are really not afraid, and I've
:24:46. > :24:54.seen some of the stuff you do, you are not afraid to say anything about
:24:55. > :24:58.anything, are you? Puncturing people's... You know, sometimes
:24:59. > :25:03.people feel nervous about making jokes about disability, but you do
:25:04. > :25:07.it quite freely. Why is that? People are really scared about difference
:25:08. > :25:12.and impairment. They don't know how to approach it. You can imagine, I
:25:13. > :25:16.wheel onto stage and they think, usually, they are raising money for
:25:17. > :25:25.charity, Children in Need or something. , what if she's not
:25:26. > :25:28.funny? Do we laugh? Do we patronise her? You have to disarm people and
:25:29. > :25:34.comedy is a great way of doing that. I do it in my everyday encounters as
:25:35. > :25:38.a way of survival, in a way. I thought, why not make a career out
:25:39. > :25:41.of that and use what I have learned, that comedy can break down lots of
:25:42. > :25:44.barriers and you can say things you couldn't normally say, but with a
:25:45. > :25:50.twinkle in your eye and a bit of mischief. It's OK for you to say
:25:51. > :25:54.that, but is it OK for others? I think it depends on the intention.
:25:55. > :25:57.If you are poking fun at the world around you, the experience of how
:25:58. > :26:05.people treat you, that's fine. Sometimes, the disabled comedy by
:26:06. > :26:09.other people is a bit mean. Instinctively, I know the
:26:10. > :26:12.difference, but it is a tough answer. I don't believe in
:26:13. > :26:16.censorship, I do believe people should have the right to make jokes
:26:17. > :26:21.about most things that they want to. But do it cleverly and don't just go
:26:22. > :26:25.for the cheap, easy jokes. I know that you are a campaigner for
:26:26. > :26:29.disability rights and something else you campaign for and are going to be
:26:30. > :26:32.discussing to the programme is about assisted dying. We would like you to
:26:33. > :26:36.take part in that debate, if you are willing to, because it would be
:26:37. > :26:39.interesting to hear your views. We are returning to the subject of your
:26:40. > :26:43.vote. We are asking if assisted dying should be made legal. There is
:26:44. > :26:48.a bill in the House of Lords this week which says its chilly
:26:49. > :26:48.a bill in the House of Lords this should, for those that are
:26:49. > :26:56.terminally ill with less than six months to live. We have heard what
:26:57. > :26:59.some religious leaders think earlier in the programme. Here is someone
:27:00. > :27:02.who has experienced the trauma of dealing with life and death
:27:03. > :27:05.first-hand. Lesley close went with her brother, John, to Switzerland on
:27:06. > :27:16.his last journey. In 2001, Lesley Close's brother,
:27:17. > :27:21.John, was diagnosed with motor neurone disease, a progressive and
:27:22. > :27:28.terminal illness. John was a fit, creative, funnyman. Within two years
:27:29. > :27:40.he was unable to speak, to stand, to swallow, to turn over in bed. In
:27:41. > :27:50.January 2003, he saw a BBC website story about somebody who went to
:27:51. > :27:54.Dignitas. He said, when I go, that is what I want to do. I said, I'll
:27:55. > :27:59.go with you whatever you want to do. And it was like a weight off his
:28:00. > :28:03.shoulders. He ended up going to Switzerland to die. He spent the
:28:04. > :28:07.last two weeks saying goodbye to friends and family. It was an honour
:28:08. > :28:11.to be able to help him to end his life as he wanted. If he died in a
:28:12. > :28:15.normal way, with motor neurone disease, he probably would have been
:28:16. > :28:19.on his own comic in bed, at night. I would forever worry about him being
:28:20. > :28:25.afraid, what he went through, physically, as his life ended. The
:28:26. > :28:28.way that he died has given me nothing but comforting memories of
:28:29. > :28:40.that day. The debate of Lord Falconer's Bill next week fills her
:28:41. > :28:44.with hope. I am confident that it will change. We can't go on using
:28:45. > :28:49.Switzerland to solve this problem. We can't go on ignoring it. It's
:28:50. > :28:53.based on legislation from 15 years ago. Since then, there has been no
:28:54. > :28:57.call to expand the remix of people that can apply for assisted death.
:28:58. > :29:01.There has been no sign of a slippery slope that people talk about so
:29:02. > :29:05.much. She says her brother would be delighted to see the law being
:29:06. > :29:09.debated in the House of Lords is. He had asked her to campaign to change
:29:10. > :29:13.the law so that other people didn't have to travel to Switzerland like
:29:14. > :29:18.him. He was the seventh British prison to go. There will be almost
:29:19. > :29:24.250 now. I feel I have failed him 240 times. -- British person. It
:29:25. > :29:39.gladdens my heart, as it would John's.
:29:40. > :29:49.Dying Bill in Britain or would that be a slippery slope? When you hear
:29:50. > :29:55.that story, do you think that assisted dying is compassionate?
:29:56. > :30:01.I do, although I also think this is difficult because it is difficult
:30:02. > :30:09.and I can see those who do not agree disagree. What is so arresting about
:30:10. > :30:13.this and this particular moment is that this conversation is being
:30:14. > :30:20.driven by people whose lives are agony. And whose loved ones are
:30:21. > :30:26.sharing that agony. It is not piloted by people who want to get
:30:27. > :30:30.rid of the elderly or the disabled, this is not about disability or
:30:31. > :30:36.dependents but about how we as Asus is Heidi -- as a society retorts
:30:37. > :30:42.some -- restore some autonomy to people living in a dreadful death.
:30:43. > :30:50.And if we do not, we remain as we are, we have to lie to ourselves. So
:30:51. > :30:53.it is about autonomy and choice and offering people in severe pain and
:30:54. > :31:01.suffering the chance to end their lives sooner. It is the word choice
:31:02. > :31:06.that concerns me. It is very difficult, I am opposed to assisted
:31:07. > :31:11.suicide which makes me a bad person. Do you disagree with choice? Of
:31:12. > :31:15.course not. But so many people in society do not have choice and we
:31:16. > :31:27.are fooling ourselves if we think this is the ultimate last rate. --
:31:28. > :31:32.the last right. Suicide is not legal in this country and people are
:31:33. > :31:37.struggling and committing suicide because they are not getting state
:31:38. > :31:41.support, benefits, and the NHS is in such a state of change that I am
:31:42. > :31:46.concerned we have put this decision into the hands of the medical
:31:47. > :31:54.profession. Why would that be a bad thing? Like the safeguards that we
:31:55. > :32:00.have, that you have two be approved of -- by two DRS, that is it. We
:32:01. > :32:05.know to get the medical profession to open up about negligence is a
:32:06. > :32:11.closed subject. -- two doctors. So what concerns me is that all sorts
:32:12. > :32:15.can happen behind closed doors and we can never called to account what
:32:16. > :32:22.is going on. So as a disabled person, I have had a lot of medical
:32:23. > :32:28.involvement... What the bill does is it licenses doctors to assist
:32:29. > :32:31.certain people in certain circumstances to end their lives and
:32:32. > :32:39.I do not know we should be doing that, and now the do most doctors.
:32:40. > :32:48.77% of GPs in a recent study. It is very limited circumstances. This is
:32:49. > :32:51.not a matter of politics but economic -- but ethics. I do not
:32:52. > :32:56.believe in suffering, and we are not talking about people who are
:32:57. > :33:01.depressed but who are terminally ill. They have no choice, they are
:33:02. > :33:06.dying, that is it. They do have choice about how they die, in pain
:33:07. > :33:10.or dignity. There will be a lot of people who want to carry on until
:33:11. > :33:17.the last moment and we should give them every protection, but for those
:33:18. > :33:22.who do not and who are fed up with the -- the agony, we should give
:33:23. > :33:26.them that option. This is not about obligations, but options.
:33:27. > :33:30.But Liz is saying that as soon as you medicalise it, you put it into
:33:31. > :33:33.the hands of other people and there is a risk.
:33:34. > :33:40.I am troubled about the debate and doctors playing God and it puts
:33:41. > :33:47.pressure on doctors. Jonathan talked about going to Holland. It is
:33:48. > :33:51.happening a lot, ?6,000 a year. And some of the architects of assisted
:33:52. > :33:57.suicide saying they wish they had not got so involved, because it is a
:33:58. > :34:02.slippery slope. We are talking about six months left, that could change
:34:03. > :34:10.again, what about those people in old people's homes being good used?
:34:11. > :34:13.-- abused. Old people could be thinking that the Grim Reaper is
:34:14. > :34:17.coming and it is in the form of the doctor.
:34:18. > :34:22.But the first person this starts with is the person who is dying. At
:34:23. > :34:28.the minute, whatever they wish, they cannot, if they are relatively
:34:29. > :34:32.powerless, they cannot missed anybody to support them in deciding
:34:33. > :34:42.when how they die, giving Babel die dreadfully. -- they will die.
:34:43. > :34:46.Lamp, you were paralysed -- Paul Lambert, you were paralysed in a car
:34:47. > :34:52.accident and you campaign for Assisted Dying Bill. Why is it so
:34:53. > :34:55.important to you? It is important because I do not
:34:56. > :35:01.want to end up in the situation where I cannot get out of bed any
:35:02. > :35:08.more. And I have to suffer because of other people who have determined
:35:09. > :35:13.that is what they want me to do. I want to have the choice so I do not
:35:14. > :35:17.have to suffer and when I am ready and the time is right, I want to
:35:18. > :35:25.call upon the professional bodies to help me. How I need help things. --
:35:26. > :35:30.helping. I do not want to have this feeling in the background but I have
:35:31. > :35:35.always had where if I end up in bed and I cannot move or do anything,
:35:36. > :35:41.society is going to make me suffer. More than is necessary.
:35:42. > :35:48.The argument has been made that people in this position of
:35:49. > :35:53.vulnerable -- they are vulnerable and they might be put under pressure
:35:54. > :35:58.to take a decision which perhaps is not in their best interests.
:35:59. > :36:06.Can you understand that? Yes, of course. But with the right people in
:36:07. > :36:10.place to make sure this does not happen, I think it could be
:36:11. > :36:20.safeguarded. Can I just say, hello, Paul, I am
:36:21. > :36:25.aware of you. It is very compelling and I am not against individuals and
:36:26. > :36:32.their choices and suicide, but Paul is not terminally ill and what he is
:36:33. > :36:40.asking for as I understand it is that he could not do the act himself
:36:41. > :36:43.so he is at -- so he is asking doctors to take more involvement.
:36:44. > :36:49.What he wants is different to the bill. He is a disabled person and he
:36:50. > :36:55.once doctors to voluntarily euthanise him. Let's use the
:36:56. > :36:58.language. So in your case, it is about
:36:59. > :37:04.voluntary euthanasia, you will like that more to be passed and to go
:37:05. > :37:10.further? -- you would like that law to be passed. Yes, I have seen
:37:11. > :37:17.people suffer for months and years and I have seen the pain they have
:37:18. > :37:22.gone through. Palliative care does not work. And to watch these people
:37:23. > :37:27.going through pain over long periods, I just think it is barbaric
:37:28. > :37:34.and cruel. I want is to get the views of the
:37:35. > :37:39.bishop who joins us from Tunbridge Wells, the former Bishop of
:37:40. > :37:44.Rochester. I hope you could hear what Paul was saying.
:37:45. > :37:52.I could not. His argument is that when you are in enormous pain, the
:37:53. > :37:55.most compassionate thing and enlightened thing is to allow that
:37:56. > :38:00.person to be able to take their own life, why not?
:38:01. > :38:05.I have to mend is sympathy for Paul and others like him in their
:38:06. > :38:10.condition, but what his case illustrates is precisely the danger
:38:11. > :38:15.of the slippery slope -- tremendous sympathy. If this Bill in Parliament
:38:16. > :38:21.is passed, it is for the terminally ill. But as has been pointed out
:38:22. > :38:26.already, Paul is not terminally ill so where do you stop? How many
:38:27. > :38:33.disabled people would be allowed to die, how many of those who are
:38:34. > :38:37.depressed, how many just tired of life? The example of Oregon was
:38:38. > :38:45.given and that law was for the terminally ill.
:38:46. > :38:50.But only 50 people a year use that option when it is open to more. So
:38:51. > :38:55.just knowing you have that option does not mean you you will go down
:38:56. > :38:58.that line. That is not the point I am making, the reasons they are
:38:59. > :39:05.giving for dying is not pain and agony. They are tired of life, loss
:39:06. > :39:10.of autonomy, they cannot do what they want to do. If you really want
:39:11. > :39:15.a slippery slope scenario, the Netherlands is clearly a case where
:39:16. > :39:21.the very architect of the law is saying, do not go down this way, it
:39:22. > :39:33.is not desirable. Our duty is to relieve suffering. I completely
:39:34. > :39:37.agree with Paul about that. But that can be done now. We are fortunate to
:39:38. > :39:44.live in times where people need not suffer pain that is unbearable, it
:39:45. > :39:48.can be relieved, there is always sedation. But it is not the job of
:39:49. > :39:53.the medical profession to assist people in dying.
:39:54. > :39:57.Paul, it is not the job of the medical profession to assist in
:39:58. > :40:04.dying? I myself have got family and friends
:40:05. > :40:10.that would without question help me when the time is right if there was
:40:11. > :40:15.the law. So they do not stand the chance of being prosecuted or have
:40:16. > :40:18.the stigma that they have done something which society does not
:40:19. > :40:24.agree with. I want to put that point about the
:40:25. > :40:31.slippery slope which has been made to Jonathan. A friend of Lord Carey
:40:32. > :40:34.and in 2006, Lord Carey argued that if the law was changed, it would
:40:35. > :40:40.soon be treated as casually as abortion. When you start doing
:40:41. > :40:46.something, or views towards that act change over time and that is the
:40:47. > :40:52.argument -- the views. It will only change if society wants
:40:53. > :40:55.it to change but there is no is -- no reason why. To quote Holland is
:40:56. > :40:59.wrong because they started on a different premise. The reason a lot
:41:00. > :41:05.of religious people are supporting the bill is because it is very
:41:06. > :41:10.limited. It will not cater for Paul, that is true. But we strongly
:41:11. > :41:15.believe that by having this red line in the sand only for the terminally
:41:16. > :41:19.ill, there are so many conditions, they have to be seen by two doctors,
:41:20. > :41:23.they have to be given palliative care, there has to be a reflective
:41:24. > :41:28.period and they can stop the process. It is not doctors, the
:41:29. > :41:33.doctors can give the prescription but the person concerned initiates
:41:34. > :41:38.it and proceeds with it. So there are enough safeguards, a
:41:39. > :41:44.cooling off period, two doctors. It sounds OK on paper but I am
:41:45. > :41:48.worried and when politicians have the power to change a law, they will
:41:49. > :41:54.do so again and again and I think the slippery slope argument is why I
:41:55. > :41:58.am reluctant. There are many vulnerable people who will think, it
:41:59. > :42:02.could be me. On the contrary. We know from Oregon
:42:03. > :42:08.that when the law came in 14 years ago, hundreds of people applied for
:42:09. > :42:10.it but very few people proceeded. People want the emotional safety
:42:11. > :42:14.net. About 50 a year. You are right to be
:42:15. > :42:16.worried, About 50 a year. You are right to be
:42:17. > :42:19.that is why we are having this conversation. It is difficult but
:42:20. > :42:26.there is one category of person on the planet in society who has
:42:27. > :42:30.absolutely no right to make fundamental decisions about how they
:42:31. > :42:33.live and how long, and that is people whose lives have become
:42:34. > :42:39.unbearable. That is the one person we are talking about. The
:42:40. > :42:43.conversation is, do they get the right to make decisions about their
:42:44. > :42:47.living? Given they are dependent on other people. The decision stays
:42:48. > :42:52.with them. We have to be really careful about
:42:53. > :42:57.the judgements about suffering. Even compassion, that is a lovely term
:42:58. > :43:02.but it can be dressed up as prejudice. My own doctor thinks I am
:43:03. > :43:08.incredible just for getting up in the morning. That is pretty
:43:09. > :43:13.patronising. The word compassion, you cannot legalise compassion. We
:43:14. > :43:24.need to be very careful about that. At the way the law stands, it often
:43:25. > :43:28.does allow assisted suicide but it does have a deterrent. When the law
:43:29. > :43:33.is passed, the law comes out of it and it goes into the power of the
:43:34. > :43:38.doctors. In Oregon, there is no abuse, do you know why? The doctors
:43:39. > :43:42.are the people monitoring. The doctor gives you the prescription
:43:43. > :43:48.and they tell the local authority what they have done, of course.
:43:49. > :43:54.We give people options about their own death. I think they have them.
:43:55. > :44:01.People do have choice, there is amazing palliative care. Doctors are
:44:02. > :44:06.not supporting this. We have seen cases of people who do want to end
:44:07. > :44:10.their lives but they are a few people and the law is about
:44:11. > :44:25.safeguarding the majority. Rather than the strong, articulate voices.
:44:26. > :44:30.all of you. That is our vote. The vote is closing now, please don't
:44:31. > :44:35.text because your vote will not be counted and you may still be
:44:36. > :44:38.charged. Once every four years, God and Satan
:44:39. > :44:43.battle it out on the streets of York. The mystery plays, staged on
:44:44. > :44:47.wagons which are around the city depicting scenes of heaven and hell.
:44:48. > :44:51.Olivia Richwald is there now, as some of the actors prepare for
:44:52. > :44:57.today's performances. Good morning. What you have here is
:44:58. > :45:01.heavenly timing. It was torrential until about five minutes ago. The
:45:02. > :45:06.play that you see behind me is the story of John the Baptist. It is one
:45:07. > :45:10.of 12 Bible plays showing in York today. What is so great is that they
:45:11. > :45:16.are on movable wagons. Each one takes about ten or 20 minutes to
:45:17. > :45:29.perform and they will move around, in four different locations. Let's
:45:30. > :45:30.speak to the artistic director. In some ways, they
:45:31. > :45:35.speak to the artistic director. In In many ways, they have. The biggest
:45:36. > :45:39.changes that the groups In many ways, they have. The biggest
:45:40. > :45:41.performing now are really drawing on contemporary resonance and things
:45:42. > :45:47.that are happening around the world and today. Why is it important to
:45:48. > :45:51.keep performing every four years? Because they still have something
:45:52. > :45:55.profound to say. They are full of the universal themes that speak to
:45:56. > :46:01.humanity. Let's speak to the producer. Tell me a little bit about
:46:02. > :46:05.the meaning of these 12 players. It works on ceremony different levels
:46:06. > :46:08.with the plays in York. Being part of the city's cultural heritage,
:46:09. > :46:12.there is that thing about being part of the community, part of the city.
:46:13. > :46:16.In one layer, people get involved with that. Then there are the
:46:17. > :46:20.biblical stories that are coming through, the resonance they have in
:46:21. > :46:24.contemporary society. It works at all sorts of different entry points.
:46:25. > :46:29.Let's talk about the relevance today, these ancient, medieval
:46:30. > :46:33.stories. Are they relevant to a modern audience? The stories have
:46:34. > :46:38.stood the test of time. That's not down to the mystery plays, they are
:46:39. > :46:40.universal tales, great stories. For people with faith, there is
:46:41. > :46:45.something very important that resonates with them about seeing
:46:46. > :46:49.them perform live. For the audiences today, they are seeing something in
:46:50. > :46:53.York that has been done since medieval times. Our forefathers have
:46:54. > :46:58.walked the streets, doing is plays in these locations, in this way,
:46:59. > :46:59.walked the streets, doing is plays decades and centuries. For others,
:47:00. > :47:03.as a community, it's decades and centuries. For others,
:47:04. > :47:10.thing to keep going in that respect. Thank you very much. I'll show you
:47:11. > :47:12.over here, this is the raising of Lazarus. If the weather does not
:47:13. > :47:20.suit you today, don't worry, are on again in York next Sunday.
:47:21. > :47:27.Well done to the actors are on again in York next Sunday.
:47:28. > :47:29.wail through the piece, conventionally. There were
:47:30. > :47:32.wail through the piece, in the past for their feasting and
:47:33. > :47:38.wantonness. I am sure there will be some of that today! There will be
:47:39. > :47:42.celebrations elsewhere as well, but by which a footballing nation? The
:47:43. > :47:44.finals are broadcast to more than 200 countries. In the smallest
:47:45. > :47:52.state, Vatican City, 200 countries. In the smallest
:47:53. > :47:55.two interested cities, as Pope Francis's Argentina faces Germany,
:47:56. > :47:58.the home of his predecessor. The Vatican spokesman say they want the
:47:59. > :48:05.better team to win and they are not taking sides. For some, the sport
:48:06. > :48:09.reflects religion and is almost a religion in itself, as we saw with
:48:10. > :48:10.the reactions to defeat in the host nation of Brazil.
:48:11. > :48:13.A country nation of Brazil.
:48:14. > :48:15.Church, but Brazil also has a love affair with football. It is the
:48:16. > :48:20.sport but claimed affair with football. It is the
:48:21. > :48:24.minds of the crowds this week. They were still praying, but for
:48:25. > :48:29.deliverance from the spectacle of Brazil's worst World Cup defeat,
:48:30. > :48:32.7-1. On the pitch, the players dropped to their knees, whether for
:48:33. > :48:39.forgiveness or mercy, it is not clear. Here, we have been
:48:40. > :48:42.worshipping Wimbledon. Novak Djokovic, a devout Christian, could
:48:43. > :48:46.be seen thanking God for his victory. In Yorkshire, people went
:48:47. > :48:54.forth unto the hills and great multitudes in awe of the Tour De
:48:55. > :48:59.France. Even churches joined the salute. As fans raise their hands
:49:00. > :49:03.heavenwards in support of their heroes, are sporting events where we
:49:04. > :49:11.pay homage and has bought the company religion?
:49:12. > :49:14.3-0 to Holland last night in the third-place play-off, and that
:49:15. > :49:19.caused some tears as well. Rosie Millard joins us again. Is sport the
:49:20. > :49:24.new religion? If it is, it seems quite good. Today, it seems like
:49:25. > :49:31.religion is more about division and community, and sport really is about
:49:32. > :49:34.community. I went to was Dale in Yorkshire, and stood on the road
:49:35. > :49:38.with thousands of other people and we cheered like crazy when the
:49:39. > :49:53.Pellicano went past. It was horrific, a communal moments of
:49:54. > :49:56.ecstasy, almost. -- peloton. You see these people that have devoted their
:49:57. > :50:02.lives to hard work. You can do-it-yourself, you have run
:50:03. > :50:07.Samaritans. I was standing there, with 40,000 other people, and it is
:50:08. > :50:11.mad to run 26.4 miles, it's silly, but it is a discipline and something
:50:12. > :50:17.you can achieve. We were with each other saying, come on, do it. So
:50:18. > :50:21.there is sometimes more community in sport than religion, with the
:50:22. > :50:27.religious divisions? Well, you have things like the rituals, songs, the
:50:28. > :50:31.calendar, like the Christian calendar. On a deeper level, yes,
:50:32. > :50:37.you have a sense of camaraderie and community. You also have faith,
:50:38. > :50:44.despite adversity. You don't get the miracle that you prayed for. The
:50:45. > :50:49.achievement, the fact you can get your body and spirit to move and do
:50:50. > :50:54.something. That's the problem, often it comes down to the individual and
:50:55. > :50:58.religion is much more, it is about into personal responsibility. Sport
:50:59. > :51:05.is 90 minutes on the pitch, religion is 24-7, at its best, a hell ethical
:51:06. > :51:10.framework. Liz, football supporter? I didn't even know the World Cup was
:51:11. > :51:16.still on. We'll take that as a no. We will cross to a man that manages
:51:17. > :51:23.to combine football and religion, Harry Ross, chaplain to Everton
:51:24. > :51:27.Football Club. What do you do, how do you combine the roles? Well, I
:51:28. > :51:32.have the church in the Court of Everton's football ground, 433
:51:33. > :51:37.years. I am still the chaplain after four of retirement. We use the
:51:38. > :51:44.church as a resource. When people come to the game on... Well, it used
:51:45. > :51:49.to be Saturday, now it is virtually any day, any evening, you open the
:51:50. > :51:54.doors, you let people come in. We open the hall doors, we let people
:51:55. > :52:00.come in and have a cup of tea. Have sandwiches, something to eat, go
:52:01. > :52:04.into the garden, go into church. You meet people where they are and that
:52:05. > :52:09.is what we have always done. That is what Christ did. When he came in, he
:52:10. > :52:13.met people were they are, he did not condemn them, he talked about what
:52:14. > :52:22.should be and he lived it out. That is what I try to do as a football
:52:23. > :52:29.supporter and Evertonians. Let's cross to York, Olivia rituals, what
:52:30. > :52:33.are they saying there? Can you mix sport and religion? It was a week
:52:34. > :52:37.ago that the streets of York were filled with people for the Tour De
:52:38. > :52:40.France. Let's ask some cycling enthusiasts what they're made of it.
:52:41. > :52:48.How devoted are you to cycling, John? Do you think that cycling is a
:52:49. > :52:53.new religion here in Yorkshire? Possibly. I really enjoy riding at
:52:54. > :52:57.the weekend with friends. It brings us together as a community. The Tour
:52:58. > :53:02.De France was fantastic. How much time do you spend devoted to cycling
:53:03. > :53:03.every week Weston Park A few hours a week, I know that a lot of people
:53:04. > :53:15.spend more time than that. What was it like last Sunday?
:53:16. > :53:23.Amazing, the time of our lives. There were some real devoted fans,
:53:24. > :53:26.memories to cherish? Cyclists came from all over the world. I run a
:53:27. > :53:33.bike shop and we had people from Australia, America, all over. Thank
:53:34. > :53:37.you very much. As you can see, spectacular sights on the streets of
:53:38. > :53:45.York today. Here are some views from cycling and easy as soon the city.
:53:46. > :53:50.-- cycling enthusiasts in the city. It's incredible to see the amount of
:53:51. > :53:56.passion and commitment? It was fantastic, the Olympics was a
:53:57. > :54:00.unifying force, I was a sceptic, but he really felt good. I'm not a
:54:01. > :54:05.football fan, but being a good Catholic, I prayed to St Jude. He
:54:06. > :54:11.clearly wasn't listening, he was the patron saint of lost causes. What do
:54:12. > :54:16.you think? Do you think the values of sport are... I don't know, great
:54:17. > :54:22.to some people than the values of faith? One of the wonderful things
:54:23. > :54:25.about sport is when you witness humans being fantastic. The horrible
:54:26. > :54:31.thing about the dominant sport in Britain, football, is that it's
:54:32. > :54:37.dominated by money and saturated by visceral hatred. I think there is
:54:38. > :54:42.less of that. I think if you about visceral hatred, let's go to
:54:43. > :54:48.religion. Indeed, so you might be right, it is the new religion. Yes,
:54:49. > :54:53.there is that, the tribal emotion. We don't have professional fouls in
:54:54. > :54:59.churches or synagogues. Major war is starting, you don't have that with
:55:00. > :55:06.sport as the reason. But it is the arena of major violence, quite
:55:07. > :55:08.often. Less so. Are we talking about industrial sport, a massive,
:55:09. > :55:17.horrible problem, or are we talking about sport when humans are, as you
:55:18. > :55:21.say, beautifully, at one with their bodies being fabulous, focused?
:55:22. > :55:28.Let's quickly hear the voice, finally, of the Everton chaplain. Do
:55:29. > :55:32.you agree with what you have been hearing so far? To some extent. I
:55:33. > :55:39.think we meet people where they are. If people are involved in sport, in
:55:40. > :55:43.football, of course, there is a lot of money involved, we taken from
:55:44. > :55:48.where they are. Those footballers are ordinary people. They have the
:55:49. > :55:52.same problems, troubles, worries as everybody else. That is what
:55:53. > :55:57.chaplains are there for. That is what other men and women of religion
:55:58. > :56:02.are therefore. Live it out, with these people, show that you have a
:56:03. > :56:07.commitment to your sport, but you can combine the two. And pray for a
:56:08. > :56:13.win? Of course, I prayed the best team wins and I usually pray that my
:56:14. > :56:17.blue Heaven always wins! How often is he listening up there? He
:56:18. > :56:23.listened very well last season, we did very well, from what we were. We
:56:24. > :56:30.came up higher than our local team. It is rivalry, and it should be just
:56:31. > :56:38.banter. Which is Liverpool, of course! Liverpool finished higher, I
:56:39. > :56:47.think, as I remember. Didn't they? No, they didn't. Well, only
:56:48. > :56:50.slightly. Reverend Ross, joining us from Everton Football Club. Let's
:56:51. > :56:58.bring you up-to-date with our vote today. Should assisted dying be made
:56:59. > :57:10.legal? That is what we asked. This is what you told us.
:57:11. > :57:19.Let's have a quick reaction to that vote result from our guests. Liz, a
:57:20. > :57:21.snapshot, we should say, but what do you think of that? That is
:57:22. > :57:24.consistent, that is you think of that? That is
:57:25. > :57:26.mostly save. I think when you take the time and have the opportunity to
:57:27. > :57:29.describe to people what is the time and have the opportunity to
:57:30. > :57:35.happening, I think that figure does go down. But just to say that a
:57:36. > :57:36.similar figure, that is the amount of doctors that
:57:37. > :57:39.similar figure, that is the amount public say yes, about 80% of them
:57:40. > :57:42.also want capital punishment to be public say yes, about 80% of them
:57:43. > :57:47.brought back. It doesn't always mean that what the public want they
:57:48. > :57:50.should get, if it means that public safety for vulnerable people is in
:57:51. > :57:51.jeopardy. That is what I think and others believe that this
:57:52. > :57:56.jeopardy. That is what I think and do. It's not fit for purpose and we
:57:57. > :57:59.shouldn't vote for it. Thank you very much to all of our guests in
:58:00. > :58:04.the studio for their informed comment on today's debate. Thank you
:58:05. > :58:08.for your company, as well. Thanks to those that voted and for those that
:58:09. > :58:14.joined us from further afield, including the York Mystery Plays. We
:58:15. > :58:16.are going to be back at the same time next Sunday. I
:58:17. > :59:00.are going to be back at the same will join me. Until then, goodbye.
:59:01. > :59:02.Imagine if you could talk to the animals.
:59:03. > :59:08.Zoologist Lucy Cooke is going to show us how.
:59:09. > :59:13.This is the first example we know of of infrared communication.